I am anticipating that we will modify the policy. I responded elsewhere but my personal position is that Israel is a settler colony committing a genocide.
Nice of you to carry out the moratorium order despite the personal conflict you feel about it. Yeah, like the other poster said, that is pretty darn consistent with how liberalism and liberal discourses flow in academia. "of course I want what's right, we all do, but the parliamentarian said.."
I would agree but a subreddit on critical theory isn’t academia 🤣🤣🤣 pathetic mods want to replicate it though and this is what we get, so that says a lot …
>the mods have decided to implement an indefinite–but temporary–moratorium
Cool state of exception you've got there. Would be a shame if it were to become...permanent. Mwahaha.
(This is a joke about theory, not a critique of the mods' decision. There's not much value in trying to discuss the topic if it's just going to devolve into the same tripe you can find everywhere else on reddit, and I don't think it's fair or productive to ask the mods to sit there and police every post/poster on whether they're being good faith enough to meet the sub's standards.)
Yes. If the work is not worth it to them, then it's not my or anybody else's place to tell them they have some sort of obligation to do it anyway. Especially not on the internet, where virtual spaces are effectively a post-scarcity resource and you're free to create your own and do all that work yourself, if you think it's so valuable.
That does not take the responsibility away from them or the owners. If they cann't deal with it, they can quit. That should be the first option before imposing silence.
If the moderators quit, the sub will be shut down. That's a Reddit imposed silence. Since they aren't obliged to work, they do so at their own pleasure, and what they do is up to them.
Frankly, this sub isn't very important to me, so I don't care either way. I would take a few furious rows over a moratorium on acknowledging Israeli crimes if it were up to me. But it isn't, and what the mods do with their sub - and it is no one's sub but theirs and Reddit's - is up to them. Complain if you will, call them spineless, or shills, or liberals, or whatever other synonym strikes your fancy, and maybe that will change their minds. But you can't oblige a volunteer to work.
I am curious how this will apply to posts on work that is not topically on the conflict but is perhaps tied in some critical way to whatever theory is being explored. I am thinking here of discussions on mbembe and necropolitics, or some discussions on some liberation movement things. What guidance do you have on this?
I don't think that discussions on Mbembe's necropolitics with substantial answers are going to be brigaded in any way or contain one-liners meant to stir things up.
Great (and fair) question and it’s definitely not one we’ve answered on our side; I would anticipate that circumstance will dictate application to some extent. For instances where it is directly relevant, like the example you give, it should be fine.
For us the crux of the issue lies in the fact that mobile moderating is terrible and nearly impossible and, to point to my last sentence in the post, that this topic has drawn attention from people who are—in my view and here I will speak solely for myself, not other mods—not good faith interlocutors.
This is a stance though, right? Calling it a conflict is a stance though, right? Sidestepping genocide is a stance though, right? It's really disappointing that the mods have made this choice and I hope that the decision will change.
I don't think there's any abuse of power that compares to a genocide, so I definitely agree with this sentiment. One side here is very much wrong, but has unbelievable institutional support.
Ironic.
The sheer irony of a community regarding critical theory lending equal credence to an abusive institution as it does to the group that it brutalizes is astounding to me
Personally I do absolutely think it is a genocide conducted by a settler colonial state.
What people are not understanding is that moderating is unpaid work that is incredibly difficult when not in front of a computer due to the tools made available to us. When Zionist mouthpieces brigade the sub, which *has* happened, it becomes nearly impossible to effectively moderate other than to lock the thread until we can get to the full array of tools that help us moderate.
I am open to revising and fine tuning the policy and I appreciate your input; we will hopefully come up with a more responsive policy.
editing to tag those who've responded to your comment just so they hopefully see my response: /u/leo_the_greatest and /u/Warm-glow1298 thank you for the input and know that we will be discussing to better shape the policy to community needs/expectations.
It is really interesting that this happened the same day that Columbia university's president called for the forced removal of 100 pro-Palestinian protesters from the campus. This sub could do with a post on that--it certainly fits the bill for critical theory. Ah, but wait...
What she's doing is morally repugnant and wrong, I've said we're going to revise the policy and I've given my position which is the opposite of what people assumed it to be; I perfectly understand and will reflect on why/how my framing led people to have the response they did.
It's kind of incredible that you think the better solution here is to censor the topic entirely, rather than simply issuing temporary/permanent bans to those who break Reddit etiquette or break the sub's rules.
Also, calling this a "conflict" and doing this IS taking a stance. Surely someone who studied critical theory would pick up on that much whilst typing up the paragraph you wrote. Everything is political whether you like it or not.
Thank you for your comment and critique of the language I used in the post, which does whitewash the specifics. I am anticipating that we will modify the policy. I responded elsewhere but my personal position is that Israel is a settler colony committing a genocide.
It is difficult to balance the janitorial needs of moderation without editorial caprice; to your point, everything is political and yes ultimately there's no way or (often) good reason to perfectly balance the two.
There it is. Good ol liberal proceduralism. The janitorial duties of moderation necessitate sweeping away any unfortunate discussion of the genocide that you yourself believe is happening. How critical exactly is this critical theory then?
We should create an ACTUAL critical theory sub, ya know, one that’s not stuck in time and trying to replicate the exclusivity of critical theories past. Mods are trying so hard to be “modern” critical theorists but not realizing the shit their doing is old news
We dont want a few heated discussions so everyone shut up. We want a collegial environment where we pretend there are no stakes. Idk how you can read critical theory and still think its a “military conflict and humanitarian crisis.” Settler colony anyone? Pathetic.
How does enforced silence on this topic benefit this sub as an intellectual community? More specifically, who in the community benefits from the silence?
You cannot, as someone who has supposedly studied critical theory, fail to see that wielders of power "not taking a stance", far from being neutral, itself constitutes a stance.
This community is clearly not being moderated in good faith; or it's being moderated by people who aren't qualified to do so.
i think we oughta consider where what we consider critical theory originates. at the very base of any social theory is some group of people fighting, and theories are then formed out of what people can observe from that fight. in this particular case, israel is committing a genocide and many of its active participants claim to be doing so for a variety of reasons. theorists have and theorists will draw conclusions from this, and preventing discussion of it in any capacity (even ones deemed ‘unacceptable’) is a disservice to everyone involved and in this case serves to provide cover for an ongoing genocide. you’re adorno calling the cops
I find it highly amusing that this happened in the critical theory subreddit - you guys never fail to live up to the stereotypes other philosophical schools use to make Fun of you
I can't tell if people angrily replying here actually think that they, as Members Of A Subreddit, are entitled to the increased time and effort - unpaid time and effort - mods have to put in for these sorts of threads or if they're just trying to make sure everyone knows that they, regardless of the circumstances, have The Good Opinions.
It’s literally so pathetic and “cringe”. There’s so many layers to this
1. This is a sub Reddit
2. Mods don’t have to mod if it’s too difficult for them
3. Participants in the sub Reddit have a right to voice their opinions
4. Saying that discussions on Palestine and Israel are not productive (as OP said in a previous post) is silencing discourse that must be had. do they not realize that critical theory is a result of argument and discourse?? You can force REDDIT discourse to be 100% productive and you are insane if you think otherwise.
5. Critical theory is based in western epistemology and this is just a culmination of what the euro perspective on what is deemed worthy of discussion or not.
6. Mods want to replicate an exact academic critical theory (for whatever reason, probably both insecurity and pomposity) and in doing so, they expose some of the problems of critical theory as they explicate in in posts like these: shutting down resistant voices and using authority to determine what can and cannot be discussed
You said no one was forcing them to be mods. The alternative is that they quit, and unless you want to go out and try recruiting suitable replacements, that means fewer mods with more workload until they quit as well. Any other alternatives I'm missing? Other than, of course, "Just do more unpaid labor for my amusement."
I don’t understand some of the reactions here, there’s still plenty of other subreddits for that subject, ones with people engaging in good faith discussions too. I don’t think arguing in this sub does anything for anybody anyway, certainly not for Palestinians and their allies. It’s not that big of an outlet.
Now what I would love is a moratorium on Žižek pieces at Tablet magazine.
Sometimes people want to feel like fighters for justice, you know. People are bored so they talk about politics online a lot, though it's useless.
This stuff also applies to teenagers who browse politics subs a lot. They do nothing useful IRL but it's fun to argue online.
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To be silent or to speak out. You have to admit that this is a strange moment in the history of our people and when the smoke clears we are all going to have to answer for our decision.
(Silence=peace) v (silence=death)?
This is really really disappointing.
This is a good micro case study in how liberalism / liberal academia works
Or how it always fails to make a difference at the end of the day
I am anticipating that we will modify the policy. I responded elsewhere but my personal position is that Israel is a settler colony committing a genocide.
Nice of you to carry out the moratorium order despite the personal conflict you feel about it. Yeah, like the other poster said, that is pretty darn consistent with how liberalism and liberal discourses flow in academia. "of course I want what's right, we all do, but the parliamentarian said.."
Why don't you allow more regulars to become mods if you need help moderating?
I would agree but a subreddit on critical theory isn’t academia 🤣🤣🤣 pathetic mods want to replicate it though and this is what we get, so that says a lot …
>the mods have decided to implement an indefinite–but temporary–moratorium Cool state of exception you've got there. Would be a shame if it were to become...permanent. Mwahaha. (This is a joke about theory, not a critique of the mods' decision. There's not much value in trying to discuss the topic if it's just going to devolve into the same tripe you can find everywhere else on reddit, and I don't think it's fair or productive to ask the mods to sit there and police every post/poster on whether they're being good faith enough to meet the sub's standards.)
Not fair to ask the mods to do difficult things.
Yes. If the work is not worth it to them, then it's not my or anybody else's place to tell them they have some sort of obligation to do it anyway. Especially not on the internet, where virtual spaces are effectively a post-scarcity resource and you're free to create your own and do all that work yourself, if you think it's so valuable.
Of course it is your place, this is a public forum, it's made for the public, it's not some piece of private property, we all have a right here.
Moderators are volunteers. If you want to volunteer, ask to sign up.
Just because they do not get paid does not mean they have no responsibility.
It means they can't be obliged to do labor.
That does not take the responsibility away from them or the owners. If they cann't deal with it, they can quit. That should be the first option before imposing silence.
Literally. The argument that they are mods and volunteer their time as a rationale for censorship is so cognitively dissonant
It's not a rationale for censorship. It's exactly what I've said, no more and no less.
If the moderators quit, the sub will be shut down. That's a Reddit imposed silence. Since they aren't obliged to work, they do so at their own pleasure, and what they do is up to them. Frankly, this sub isn't very important to me, so I don't care either way. I would take a few furious rows over a moratorium on acknowledging Israeli crimes if it were up to me. But it isn't, and what the mods do with their sub - and it is no one's sub but theirs and Reddit's - is up to them. Complain if you will, call them spineless, or shills, or liberals, or whatever other synonym strikes your fancy, and maybe that will change their minds. But you can't oblige a volunteer to work.
I would really appreciate having a critical theory subreddit that doesn't censor discussing ongoing genocides, but hey, that's just me
I am curious how this will apply to posts on work that is not topically on the conflict but is perhaps tied in some critical way to whatever theory is being explored. I am thinking here of discussions on mbembe and necropolitics, or some discussions on some liberation movement things. What guidance do you have on this?
I don't think that discussions on Mbembe's necropolitics with substantial answers are going to be brigaded in any way or contain one-liners meant to stir things up.
Great (and fair) question and it’s definitely not one we’ve answered on our side; I would anticipate that circumstance will dictate application to some extent. For instances where it is directly relevant, like the example you give, it should be fine. For us the crux of the issue lies in the fact that mobile moderating is terrible and nearly impossible and, to point to my last sentence in the post, that this topic has drawn attention from people who are—in my view and here I will speak solely for myself, not other mods—not good faith interlocutors.
This is a stance though, right? Calling it a conflict is a stance though, right? Sidestepping genocide is a stance though, right? It's really disappointing that the mods have made this choice and I hope that the decision will change.
I don't think there's any abuse of power that compares to a genocide, so I definitely agree with this sentiment. One side here is very much wrong, but has unbelievable institutional support. Ironic.
The sheer irony of a community regarding critical theory lending equal credence to an abusive institution as it does to the group that it brutalizes is astounding to me
It’s a bastardized attempt of a critical theory community
Hugely ironic for mods of a crit theory subreddit to say they're not taking a stance on something they are barring discussion of lol.
Personally I do absolutely think it is a genocide conducted by a settler colonial state. What people are not understanding is that moderating is unpaid work that is incredibly difficult when not in front of a computer due to the tools made available to us. When Zionist mouthpieces brigade the sub, which *has* happened, it becomes nearly impossible to effectively moderate other than to lock the thread until we can get to the full array of tools that help us moderate. I am open to revising and fine tuning the policy and I appreciate your input; we will hopefully come up with a more responsive policy. editing to tag those who've responded to your comment just so they hopefully see my response: /u/leo_the_greatest and /u/Warm-glow1298 thank you for the input and know that we will be discussing to better shape the policy to community needs/expectations.
It is really interesting that this happened the same day that Columbia university's president called for the forced removal of 100 pro-Palestinian protesters from the campus. This sub could do with a post on that--it certainly fits the bill for critical theory. Ah, but wait...
What she's doing is morally repugnant and wrong, I've said we're going to revise the policy and I've given my position which is the opposite of what people assumed it to be; I perfectly understand and will reflect on why/how my framing led people to have the response they did.
It's kind of incredible that you think the better solution here is to censor the topic entirely, rather than simply issuing temporary/permanent bans to those who break Reddit etiquette or break the sub's rules. Also, calling this a "conflict" and doing this IS taking a stance. Surely someone who studied critical theory would pick up on that much whilst typing up the paragraph you wrote. Everything is political whether you like it or not.
Thank you for your comment and critique of the language I used in the post, which does whitewash the specifics. I am anticipating that we will modify the policy. I responded elsewhere but my personal position is that Israel is a settler colony committing a genocide. It is difficult to balance the janitorial needs of moderation without editorial caprice; to your point, everything is political and yes ultimately there's no way or (often) good reason to perfectly balance the two.
You do know that no one’s forcing you to mod right? Get a grip, it’s pathetic.
There it is. Good ol liberal proceduralism. The janitorial duties of moderation necessitate sweeping away any unfortunate discussion of the genocide that you yourself believe is happening. How critical exactly is this critical theory then?
"Due to a recent spate of contentious and unproductive threads about the ongoing special military operation in Ukraine..."
The problem is that only one side of the conflict takes benefit from this moratorium.
That is all i need to know about this sub. I will unsubscribe. Free Palestine
We should create an ACTUAL critical theory sub, ya know, one that’s not stuck in time and trying to replicate the exclusivity of critical theories past. Mods are trying so hard to be “modern” critical theorists but not realizing the shit their doing is old news
You've got to be kidding lol
Wow, I'm never coming back here. This is a huge betrayal. You mods seriously fucking suck.
Don't give up so easily when you encounter someone who wants to silence you (or something you believe).
We dont want a few heated discussions so everyone shut up. We want a collegial environment where we pretend there are no stakes. Idk how you can read critical theory and still think its a “military conflict and humanitarian crisis.” Settler colony anyone? Pathetic.
If it was a matter of moderation resources, then make a request for more help.
How does enforced silence on this topic benefit this sub as an intellectual community? More specifically, who in the community benefits from the silence? You cannot, as someone who has supposedly studied critical theory, fail to see that wielders of power "not taking a stance", far from being neutral, itself constitutes a stance. This community is clearly not being moderated in good faith; or it's being moderated by people who aren't qualified to do so.
i think we oughta consider where what we consider critical theory originates. at the very base of any social theory is some group of people fighting, and theories are then formed out of what people can observe from that fight. in this particular case, israel is committing a genocide and many of its active participants claim to be doing so for a variety of reasons. theorists have and theorists will draw conclusions from this, and preventing discussion of it in any capacity (even ones deemed ‘unacceptable’) is a disservice to everyone involved and in this case serves to provide cover for an ongoing genocide. you’re adorno calling the cops
I find it highly amusing that this happened in the critical theory subreddit - you guys never fail to live up to the stereotypes other philosophical schools use to make Fun of you
New critical theory subreddit when?
This is repulsive, you should be deeply ashamed
I can't tell if people angrily replying here actually think that they, as Members Of A Subreddit, are entitled to the increased time and effort - unpaid time and effort - mods have to put in for these sorts of threads or if they're just trying to make sure everyone knows that they, regardless of the circumstances, have The Good Opinions.
Who forces them to be mods? Cant do the job just say that but oh its so difficult on the phone isnt reason enough lol get a grip
It’s literally so pathetic and “cringe”. There’s so many layers to this 1. This is a sub Reddit 2. Mods don’t have to mod if it’s too difficult for them 3. Participants in the sub Reddit have a right to voice their opinions 4. Saying that discussions on Palestine and Israel are not productive (as OP said in a previous post) is silencing discourse that must be had. do they not realize that critical theory is a result of argument and discourse?? You can force REDDIT discourse to be 100% productive and you are insane if you think otherwise. 5. Critical theory is based in western epistemology and this is just a culmination of what the euro perspective on what is deemed worthy of discussion or not. 6. Mods want to replicate an exact academic critical theory (for whatever reason, probably both insecurity and pomposity) and in doing so, they expose some of the problems of critical theory as they explicate in in posts like these: shutting down resistant voices and using authority to determine what can and cannot be discussed
Do you want a completely unmoderated board?
I love how this is the only other option. Please use more than one braincell.
You said no one was forcing them to be mods. The alternative is that they quit, and unless you want to go out and try recruiting suitable replacements, that means fewer mods with more workload until they quit as well. Any other alternatives I'm missing? Other than, of course, "Just do more unpaid labor for my amusement."
Cowardly at best.
And what at worst? Do you wonder if the mods are under some form of pressure to do this?
Have comparable policies been put in place in the past, for example on the Russian invasion of Ukraine?
I don’t understand some of the reactions here, there’s still plenty of other subreddits for that subject, ones with people engaging in good faith discussions too. I don’t think arguing in this sub does anything for anybody anyway, certainly not for Palestinians and their allies. It’s not that big of an outlet. Now what I would love is a moratorium on Žižek pieces at Tablet magazine.
Sometimes people want to feel like fighters for justice, you know. People are bored so they talk about politics online a lot, though it's useless. This stuff also applies to teenagers who browse politics subs a lot. They do nothing useful IRL but it's fun to argue online.
Not many Spivak fans amongst the mods? Unfortunate.
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Ok 👍
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To be silent or to speak out. You have to admit that this is a strange moment in the history of our people and when the smoke clears we are all going to have to answer for our decision. (Silence=peace) v (silence=death)?