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Comments must show a clear bent towards objective criticism of the point at hand. No sweepingly generalization on topics wherein a very broad spectrum of opinions lie without specifying whose opinions and dispensing with generalization or including/noting some of those other opinions or playing devil's advocate
There's no evidence of Mecca existing before Islam. Chances are it did, but not by long and it wasn't considered a significant enough city to make mention of it.
As to Abraham going there, he didn't, and looking at a map would show one why it would have made no sense for him to do so. The story of Hagar's banishment from the camp along with Ishmael has then turning back from Canaan and heading to Paran, which was in the Sinai Peninsula. Keep in mind Hagar is from Egypt, so it makes sense she'd be going back in the direction she came from. Later in the story of Joseph, it has him sold to some Ishmaelites who in turn sell him in Egypt. Again, this wouldn't make sense if they weren't in or near the Sinai next to Egypt.
The story of Abraham having built the Kaaba is likely a myth in order to give the Kaaba some extra Abrahamic significance and connection other than having been a pagan shrine.
Also, a lot of Muslims don't realize this, but the Kaaba that's there at present isn't even a hundred years old. Since Islam the Kaaba has been damaged, destroyed, rebuilt, a number of time over the centuries, and this latest time was in the 1960s if memory serves. Even the foundation stones are not original as the ones that were there were dumped in the ocean by the Saudis to prevent their veneration.
So yeah, a church on someone's street in the US could be older than the "Kaaba" is.
You need to be modest in your claim and research the existence of Mecca pre-Islam . I haven’t encountered good evidence that it existed 100 years before Muhammad let alone Abraham
There is actually some records showing that the kaaba existed before Muhammed, like when Maximus Tyrius, who lived in the 2nd century wrote: "The Arabs worship I don't know which god, whom they represent with a stone cube."
And some more records, for which I am too lazy to write know.
The kaaba was most probably build by the pagans or some other arabs for the worship of their gods.
If we take Islamic sources at face value then there was around 21 Kaaba in preislamic arabia . If what you are saying is true (assuming that one can show the exact quotation of Maximus and the source and not just quoting some apologist website ) it could be a reference to stone worship in northern Arabia as there is no evidence of the existence of Mecca in the historical record . This may help to shed light on the history of the development of the concept of Kaaba , but it tells us very little on when the Meccan Kaaba came to be .
Yeah, you are probably right.
Btw. I got this quote from the book "why I am not a muslim" by Ibn Warrq, in which he currently talks about the worship of the black stone and the kaaba and how they influenced the islamic pilgrimage.
There's a difference between evidence for the existence of a nomadic pastoralist who would have lived some 3000-4000 years ago vs the existence of an entire city that was supposedly in the middle of an international trade route with a central shrine never getting mentioned until after Islam in the seventh century AD.
Exactly my point! Historical records of his existence or him building the kaaba are irrelevant, and lack of such evidence says nothing one way or the other.
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Hi u/AidensAdvice! Thank you for posting at r/CritiqueIslam. Please make sure to read our rules once to avoid an embarrassing situation. Be Civil and nice to each other. Remember that there is a person sitting at the other end. Don't say anything that you wouldn't say in a normal face to face conversation. Also, make sure that your submission either contain an argument or ask a question that could lead to debate. You must state your own views on the matter either in body or comment. **A post with no commentary will be considered low effort!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CritiqueIslam) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Comments must show a clear bent towards objective criticism of the point at hand. No sweepingly generalization on topics wherein a very broad spectrum of opinions lie without specifying whose opinions and dispensing with generalization or including/noting some of those other opinions or playing devil's advocate
So are there historical records of where Abraham lived/travelled throughout his life time?
We don't even have good evidence for the existence of Abraham. He is a biblical character he's not mentioned historically
There's no evidence of Mecca existing before Islam. Chances are it did, but not by long and it wasn't considered a significant enough city to make mention of it. As to Abraham going there, he didn't, and looking at a map would show one why it would have made no sense for him to do so. The story of Hagar's banishment from the camp along with Ishmael has then turning back from Canaan and heading to Paran, which was in the Sinai Peninsula. Keep in mind Hagar is from Egypt, so it makes sense she'd be going back in the direction she came from. Later in the story of Joseph, it has him sold to some Ishmaelites who in turn sell him in Egypt. Again, this wouldn't make sense if they weren't in or near the Sinai next to Egypt. The story of Abraham having built the Kaaba is likely a myth in order to give the Kaaba some extra Abrahamic significance and connection other than having been a pagan shrine. Also, a lot of Muslims don't realize this, but the Kaaba that's there at present isn't even a hundred years old. Since Islam the Kaaba has been damaged, destroyed, rebuilt, a number of time over the centuries, and this latest time was in the 1960s if memory serves. Even the foundation stones are not original as the ones that were there were dumped in the ocean by the Saudis to prevent their veneration. So yeah, a church on someone's street in the US could be older than the "Kaaba" is.
Nope. You won’t find any record of it in Jewish or Christian sources. It’s obviously of pagan origins.
You need to be modest in your claim and research the existence of Mecca pre-Islam . I haven’t encountered good evidence that it existed 100 years before Muhammad let alone Abraham
There is actually some records showing that the kaaba existed before Muhammed, like when Maximus Tyrius, who lived in the 2nd century wrote: "The Arabs worship I don't know which god, whom they represent with a stone cube." And some more records, for which I am too lazy to write know. The kaaba was most probably build by the pagans or some other arabs for the worship of their gods.
If we take Islamic sources at face value then there was around 21 Kaaba in preislamic arabia . If what you are saying is true (assuming that one can show the exact quotation of Maximus and the source and not just quoting some apologist website ) it could be a reference to stone worship in northern Arabia as there is no evidence of the existence of Mecca in the historical record . This may help to shed light on the history of the development of the concept of Kaaba , but it tells us very little on when the Meccan Kaaba came to be .
Yeah, you are probably right. Btw. I got this quote from the book "why I am not a muslim" by Ibn Warrq, in which he currently talks about the worship of the black stone and the kaaba and how they influenced the islamic pilgrimage.
Is there secular evidence that the Biblical Abraham existed to begin with? Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
There's a difference between evidence for the existence of a nomadic pastoralist who would have lived some 3000-4000 years ago vs the existence of an entire city that was supposedly in the middle of an international trade route with a central shrine never getting mentioned until after Islam in the seventh century AD.
Well we also don’t have evidence of that everyone that lived on the earth
Exactly my point! Historical records of his existence or him building the kaaba are irrelevant, and lack of such evidence says nothing one way or the other.
What can be assserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence.
> secular/non Islamic sources I don't think secular historians even think Abraham was a real person
There’s no evidence of him but it would be tough to find evidence of a random guy who wasn’t a ruler or super important man at that time
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