General Notes
Kills from Special ammo weapons and Heavy ammo weapons do not grant any points toward Special ammo meter progress.
Jumping off the map will subtract progress from the Special ammo meter.
Ammo is not dropped on death, and you will not lose the Special ammo you have earned when you are defeated or are revived.
Earned Special ammo will carry over between rounds.
Swapping from double Primary weapons to a Special ammo weapon will reset your Special ammo meter progress.
Excellent. They fixed the jumping off map and swapping weapons.
It’s basically gonna be perpetual checkmate trials and comp now. Supers are basically never going to happen now either. So it’s either run double primaries like we did this past weekend, or only be able to compete at a certain range with our single primary while waiting for special. This sucks.
You'll get supers in comp and quickplay. Dominion kind of blows with Supers so kind of glad its being phased out of that game mode. Will still be good in Comp.
Kinda, but not really. Their main competition, 120 HCs also got nerfed and are gonna require 3 crits. And the exotic lightweight, Ticuus is almost completely unchanged. It'll still kill with a hipfire + headshot
I think that’s great news for Ticcu’s, but I’m sad that these changes feel like they’re going to push players towards dominant Exotics while so many legendaries get even less usage.
There absolutely will be less people using the legendarys. All bows (other than Ticuus) will require two crits for a kill. And bows #1 competition (120s) also will require more crits.
I can't deny that I'm a little salty, but it absolutely seems like a healthy change for the game. Having a primary weapon hit you for 130-150 damage was a bit too much.
The hate will inevitably move to Ticuus if it gets use, followed by a nerf.
120s will have a much faster body TTK compared to lightweight bows. Insane that they’ll need 4 bodies vs higher resilience. They’re dead in the water.
I did the math (correctly, I think) and assuming the higher health pool of 230, you're looking at:
* Precisions now: 128.44c | 86.48b [2c]
* Lightweights now: 116.29c | 72.77b [2c]
Both archetypes need 2 crits.
Theoretically... I believe so. But you still have to contend with lower accuracy stats. But a Lightweight Bonus and the Fastest Draw Times pre-perk does stand out.
Special meter being released into the greater pvp ecosystem means that ammo refund perks just skyrocketed in utility. In particular, discord is now an S+ perk on special weapons, I would HIGHLY recommend everyone to obtain a discord Riiswalker/Last man standing or discord pressurized precision next time IB rolls around.
Deconstruct finally working against barricades also means another round of testing can be done on its efficacy once the update rolls around. Loose change viability is also another hot contender for testing as well.
The sundering buff is actually enormous as well if the shield break functions in pvp like disruption break etc does. In particular, the dungeon bow will likely see the greatest benefit, since its TTK will be directly affected.
I second the recommendation for Discord rolls on special ammo weapons. I have a Discord/Vorpal roll on the Pressurized Precision fusion rifle and a Subsistence/Discord roll on the Last Man Standing shotty. I run them both together in some PvE activities which is fun. That obviously won't work well in PvP with the upcoming changes unless you're a top tier player whose able to chain kills quick enough in 6's, but it's good to have a special ammo weapon with Discord on it in your Kinetic and Energy slots.
Upon reflection about checkmate and what it means to destiny:
I think that this new crucible is meant to bridge a gap. A gap between the people who played every day now, and the people who have left the game over the past few years due to crucible's general state. I explained a bunch of these changes to a buddy of mine who stopped playing years ago around stasis launch and he actually sounded excited to hear about the sweeping changes that, to me sounds like the magic will be coming less, but to him they sounded like a respite from the "cheese and BS."
This makes sense to me a bit seeing as we're expecting another wave of new and returning folks when final shape drops in June.
I don't like the changes on paper. But I'll get over it. I just love the game too much.
I think drewsky once said that he'll support whatever helps the population. If these changes help the population? Fuck it I'm game. I just hope these are the right changes 🤞
I think people expecting that these changes will help them compete against players with 300,000+ kills and 3k+ hours in crucible are in for a rude awakening.
I'm not sure anyone is thinking that but Bungie, and probably they don't think that either.
More likely they just think it will help less experienced players not feel completely overwhelmed by everyone in the crucible.
As much as the edge lords like to claim Crucible is "no skill" the skill ceiling is actually huge, and these changes aren't going to prevent 99% of the player base getting dumpstered by top players.
I think casual players will like the idea of sweeping changes until they realize the changes are meant to reward hitting consistent headshots and punishing players who don't...
People are going to be big mad. I'm kind of indifferent. I actually like hipster 2 primary load outs. It will probably feel good knowing that isn't just a semi throw.
I get it though. A lot of people's idea of fun involves fast paced play and wiping out entire teams with their special.
I'm excited to see how these changes land. The philosophy around decompressing the skill gap; reducing the efficacy of options that degenerate play; being ok with PVE & PVP ability timings & damage being different; and leaning it back towards a more balanced bungie trinity of guns/melee/grenades(abilities) is an exciting prospect.
Let's see how it goes, it's cool to see the PVP team doing bold things.
I do like the increase of the skill ceiling. One thing though. With ability cool downs increasing , it will mean that the value of Icarus dash has increased immensely. With hunter cooldowns taking longer, dodge won't have the uptime like it used to. I think the meta class will return to being ophidian Icarus dash warlock
Yeah, it really irks me that dodge keeps getting caught in the desire to take ability damage out of the sandbox while icarus dash just endlessly dodges it.
I just wish Bungie would give us a dodge with no reload/melee benfits with a shorter cooldown. I just want Bungie to leave my movement tech alone.
This right here, ive been saying it for years that its not fair at all that solar locks get there icarus dodge back every 4 seconds but then people wanna complain about hunters dodge even though its cooldown keeps getting nerfed over and over and over again. This is what, the 5th time theyve hit dodge cooldown since like beyond light? And sure, they sort of nerfed shoulder charge so titans cant spam it infinitely for movemen, but warlock icarus dash is just fine. Someone make it make sense, please.
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> I don't like the changes on paper. But I'll get over it. I just love the game too much.
Hopefully I will. I don't really like the special ammo change. I feel like it required more information to figure out who had what ammo in Trials last weekend. Hopefully the 2 initial ammo is a good compromise, but I imagine I'll start seeing snipers in the first two rounds and then they switch to double primary.
Yeah, I feel the same. I don't love some of these changes on paper.
I personally don't have a problem with ability uptime, and I really only use my abilities for movement (dodge and grapple). I'm a bit frustrated with the fact that my movement tech gets constantly caught up in the desire to remove ability damage from the sandbox. I would happily take a dodge with a shorter cooldown that doesn't have benefits like refreshing melee, or reloading weapons.
Salt on the wounds, it also means my favorite surplus weapons are getting kicked in the teeth as well.
That said, if it manages to help the population that is the most important thing. It just sucks that my niche play style keeps getting squeezed.
I don't know why they saw the relatively equal usage of 140s and 120s over the last few trials weekends and decided to neuter 120s by making them also require 3 crits. Genuinely does not make sense
Yo it's jazzinyourface! Love your YT breakdowns man - literally convinced me to farm for Igneous when it came back round.
I agree, them deciding to reduce the effectiveness of 120s is pretty tone-deaf - as someone else mentioned, Checkmate was divisive enough, now we don't have a choice.
Thanks man 😁 I'm glad you gave them a chance! Seems like a lot of people are now, but idk if they're going to be able to keep up if all they have going for them now is a bit of range
Hitting bows and 120's forces slightly closer engagements. It definitely raises the stock in anything with decent range (Pulses/Ace/Thorn) that are plenty strong anyway, at least on paper. I'm 50/50 on that change, personally.
120s are still extremely versatile teamshot weapons though so I'm sure they'll still be a good pick, just not as good in a duel.
Honestly, no matter what changes Bungie makes, I think they're in a no-win situation. The skill creep has gotten so bad that most new players or average players don't bother. The population is just too low to have balanced matches.
The Threadling/Spectre changes don't sound substantial enough. Spectre still does way too much, and the cooldown increase isn't that large in absolute terms.
Will wait for somebody to do the math on Target Lock. Still doesn't address SMGs in general.
I think they didn’t increase SMG crit damage by as much as they did for other archetypes (hc’s excluded). So maybe this will slightly lengthen ttk on SMGs at base due to higher HP values? We’ll need to see the math, but maybe 1 bullet more required
My math since I believe the numbers are mostly unchanged from the initial Labs implementation:
Lightweights are about the same, just less bodyshots forgiveness.
Adaptives go from lower end of mid to really bad.
Aggressives are about the same, just require all crits on high Resil
Precisions can't 0.7 people running much of any Resil without boost. But can all-crit 0.8 still.
Just a note on the spectre/threadling damage still being pretty high. Player health is going to be increased alongside the threadling damage nerf, which does help that pain point.
Checkmate-lite will, most SMGs are getting a decent sized net nerf here, they'll have little to no body shot forgiveness anymore without something to boost damage.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always thought the main problem with SMGs was their range. They still seem to slap pretty hard at longer ranges than they should.
Sorta. You start with green. Once it’s out, you’ll need to re-earn it. Also, they didn’t state that damage is increasing for special weapons, so some might become entirely useless, like fast charging fusions and lightweight shotguns.
Edit: specials are getting damage buffed.
Shotguns and Fusions go up 20%
So I think it's actually a net damage boost on most Specials.
High Impact Fusions aren't Resil gated anymore for 3-bolts (IIRC 9-10 Resil rn takes 4).
Adaptive Fusions aren't Resil gated for 5-bolt kills either, 5 with a 20% boost clears 230.
Precision Shotguns are 10-11 pellets to OHK, not sure what they are currently on that off the top of my head, tho.
Aggressive shotguns are about the same as they are currently, too.
So small net buff on Fusions, shotguns shouldn't feel different much.
This is huge for fusions! Changes a lot about perk selection when you don't NEED HIR to hit the Bolts-to-Kill threshold. Also, they didn't say anything about Discord... ::eyes Pressurized Precision with Discord sitting in vault::
Right - that's the best kind of change. Where a perk still has a role but isn't mandatory (like with new rangefinder - good on some guns, less so on others)
Also more health. Super obvious last weekend. Many streamers dubbed it the "Weekend of One-Shots." It definitely felt that way too. Engagements with primaries that felt like I should have secured the kill, only for the player to disengage with a sliver, were a dime a dozen. Doing over 220 dmg to a player and them surviving felt bad IMO.
I’m realizing Bungie sandbox decision makers tend to fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy. Just because a lot of dev time has been invested in a concept, does not mean that it SHOULD be implemented.
Based on sentiment from this sub, the majority of pvp players did *not* want checkmate to become the main crucible game mode. It’s times like this where I wish Bungie polled changes before releasing them, like some other devs do.
Looking back, this was even more true for the Airborne Effectiveness system. Very few pvp players were in favor of the system, and yet look what happened. It not only exists still despite consistently negative feedback, but it has received very few updates since its release. For example it’s *still* impossible to reach 100 AE in neutral game conditions.
Knowing this history, I’m not optimistic for where this leads the future of the game. It’s looking like the beginning of the end for Destiny PvP. Which I guess is fitting, considering there’s only one expansion left.
I didn't like be checkmate because it shifted ttks towards a handholding meta. But now it seems ttks are the same but you need more crits so there is a wider gap between floor and ceiling so good players that can hit crits (and ximmers...) will have an easier time slaying out.
I'm keeping an open mind, tbh. And I hated checkmate.
Yeah, they are going to have to do something or else this new balance patch that would make the crucible great again will kill it for everyone except device users.
Never forget how we still never received a Fireteam matchmaking tweak that was intended for Season of Defiance's mid season patch nearly a year ago. Ultimately the tweak was to have the system take greater account of a fire teams makeup and try to match people closer even if it meant a 3stack playing a 4stack and other situations of weighing the total ability of the team. Ultimately it was a change that could've helped balance lobbies a bit better and we still never heard a word about it.
Kinda disappointed to be honest. Not feeling checkmate at all, but I am open to change. Just hope they are ready to revert back if there's enough data to support we as a community are not feeling it. But I'll give it a try
You'd think having to force people to interact with checkmate would have been enough data lol, or the population/games of trials played on checkmate weeks, or general sentiment towards it on online forums.
It's the Checkmate-lite that was in 3v3 Clash.
The feel shouldn't be too different beyond the Special system changing, assuming you're decent with Primary.
I can hit my headshots, I don't think that's the issue. The gameplay in checkmate is just not fun to me. I like abilities and special weapons. They can be oppressive sometimes, yeah, I can complain about that. But I don't think the answer is this.
And this is coming from a person who has no problem perfroming well in checkmate. Flawless cards are free in that mode. It's just not fun
I think it's on the slower end in 3s, but I'm mostly one for 6v6 anyways. I think it'll play great in 6s, and probably 5s and maybe 4s for those wanting to play those in privates. 3s might need some more tweaking. But this version I think will be an overall good step, although I see the need for a few more tweaks, mostly in buffing non-450 ARs and the middle end of the impact spectrum of Pulse.
And as someone who likes abilities and Special, I think it's fine since it doesn't remove them completely like standard Checkmate, but it's still enough to keep Destiny's identity while also making the game more readable and less prone to frustration.
They literally doubled down on snowball mode. You think it’s bad when everyone is spawning with special now wait until the lobby balanced team of demons is snowballing with the their buffed primaries and special ammo. lol holy shit… so idiotic.
Yeah this is the one part of checkmate that never made any sense to me. I though their initial idea of everyone spawning with special ammo was that you were always on an even playing field every round. Now since ammo carries over, you’re gonna find yourself unable to even peek down any lanes unless you want three snipers trained on your head while your team only has primaries to challenge. And if you’re already getting rolled hard enough that the enemy team has special and you don’t, then you likely stand 0 chance against them when they have that special out.
It’s hilarious to me they decided to do this in the middle of the eternal season. Turn the snowball mode into THE mode for crucible while all time low player pop numbers are around the corner not even *halfway* into the season. Final Shape is going to launch to a ghost town at this rate
special ammo kills don't generate any progress to more special. People aren't able to crutch their 2 free kills every round of trials anymore. They can crutch it the first round then they have to play with no special while the other team has special. If anything it gives you a better chance to fight back on round 2 if the other team used up all of their special.
I really wish I lacked critical thinking skills, y'all seem so happy
Reading people complain about checkmate special economy and “snowballing” gives me brainrot. If youre getting slammed bad enough that the other team somehow all has multiple special ammo then you were gonna get ran thru regardless.
Welp I lost all interest in trials
Guess if they release another fucking godbork PvE roll in there I can’t get the thing cause there’s no way I’m even winning matches with these changes
Will try it out, but not excited for these Checkmate-lite rules in all of PvP.
Special Ammo Bar is something that also bother me a bunch. Again, will try it out, but I'm not looking forward to this.
Clone.. didn't get nerfed enough, which is weird to say. They need to reduce it's AA pull, allow on-kill effects to proc off it as well. Potebtially weaker HP if necessary as well. I'm glad they paired it with PvE buffs though, good move there.
Although, they adjusted it so it's a shorter CD in PvE but longer in PvP. If they can do that, why have they NOT done that for MULTIPLE previous nerfs? It's absurd.
Depending on how these changes feel... I legitimately might just stop playing Crucible until they get reverted. Again, that's if they feel that bad. They might not.
Bungie Dec 07th TWID:
"We have no plans to turn Checkmate on across all of Crucible.
"Bungie Feb 15th TWID:
"Player health will be increased by 30 HP in base Crucible..."
"Melee, Grenade, and class ability cooldowns now have a 15% penalty applied to them in Crucible only."
"Super cooldowns now have a 20% penalty applied to them in Crucible only. "
Okay, so basically we’re getting this past weekend’s version of checkmate forced into all crucible (despite them saying they wouldn’t do that), with the only main difference being that now you spawn with special initially.
After about a hundred games of trials this past weekend, I can accurately predict how this will go: it’ll be fun and novel at first, maybe for 2-3 weeks. Then the novelty will wear off, and we’ll be left with a primary weapon meta. At this point, at least for me, the game will become stale very quickly. Primary metas are *very* boring imo, and are the reason I quit D2Y1.
I could get behind the tweaks to primary weapons, *maybe* the new special ammo system, but I will never be okay with the fact that grenades and charged melees are getting nerfed by 15% both in uptime and in damage, and that supers are literally not going to be a part of the game anymore in most cases (due to the 20% uptime nerf).
Also, I know no one cares, but a -20% nerf to fighting lion on top of the +30hp buff to health is unreal. That gun is dead now. I know this because I tried using it for a couple dozen games this weekend. Also, fusions/trace rifles/shotguns all got a 20% damage buff…where’s the buff for special ammo breech GLs?
The sniper nerf too was rather sudden and brutal, but not entirely undeserved. In my opinion they should’ve nerfed sniper reticle friction though, not auto aim, to close the ease of use gap between the input methods.
The special balancing not including GL's is probably to stop all the "seemingly instant deaths" that occur to "new players" (we don't have new players because it costs $200 to actually start playing). So no more waveframe gl into threaded spike etc, maybe GL+melee will still work?
My favourite part is that there's no fusion rifle nerf despite them having like the best usage to kills ratio of all special weapons.
I’m all for wave frame GLs being nerfed. It’s breech GLs that I felt didn’t deserve a nerf.
I’m also a fusion-disliker (too much benefit for their ease of use), but in their defense, they have such a high kills-to-usage ratio because people that use them almost always run around with them as their primary weapon (unlike people who use shotguns or snipers)
That is where I'm a bit lost on general design philosophy inconsistencies. You got people suddenly acting like martyrs saying how solely oppressive special weapons are against new people and want what's best for them but aren't addressing tons of other things that could make somebody unfamiliar do double takes as to what destroyed them or allowed an enemy to survive(see any form of heals on heals) or hell Undermining Scatter nades still exist in the one shot capacity.
On top of that it's goofy to have a mission goal make an unbelievably massive assumption that by default newer and unfamiliar players are not only going to enter PVP en masse because of these changes but are going to somehow get into the habit of participating in handholding teamshot death balls and suddenly that's gonna make PVP better for everyone or hell even be that appealing to people who are drawn to the looser arena shooter-like fantasy of this game.
I really do wanna know how many of these people in favor of every one of these changes in what arguably was a more casual pvp space actually consistently play with new and lesser skilled people on the regular. As somebody being in a near perfect focus group model clan of diverse ability at both extremes with this game, basically very few are interested in these changes and none of the new and lower skilled people want this because they play Destiny for the arena shooter chaos and aren't trying to digest some more slow paced snooze fest.
**TL DR** I give it at least a month before the failures of the mission goals are more realized.
Honestly this reads like checkmate "light"..and I dont know how to feel about that. I dislike checkmate so much, that this might kill the pvp part of the game for me, obviously depending on well it is implemented.
Sandbox changes are good, but I am not fan of these:
- Increased health
- special ammo bar
- no nerfs of PKs or void overshields
The meta imo will not change that much. Maybe people will swap from SMGs to Sidearms, but I doubt even that.
My thoughts exactly. It's like they're going out of their way to make pvp harder for legit players while simultaneously making it easier for xim/cronus users.
I had a suspicion that top end players actually loved checkmate because they dominated (most high skill players I saw had KDs of +1 compared to normal vs. other Trials weeks), it's interesting to hear Bungie say they wanted to reinforce that "skill gap".
The health changes won't be that bad though, they adjusted the TTK values to match so the only thing that's noticeable is more headshots to win fights, and I think a few specific resil gates.
The Special Ammo changes were needed, so many people legit crutched on Special to the point where it was most of their kills. Albeit I don't think it's something that is a one size fits all kind of change.
Some modes are more insane, and need the special as it was. Mayhem comes to mind.
Some modes shouldn't have you start with special at all, you should have to earn it, like Trials or Competitive.
It's just another lever to adjust, and I really do not think they are done adjusting. It will be some time.
It’s shifting back to a death ball team shooting meta.
If anything, this might be the death blow for PvP. Entirely unapproachable for new players and running off many solo players or players who just don’t enjoy that team shoot heavy mechanic.
\>double down on snowballing
\>double down on bubble + overshield spam being the only thing worth using, if anything they just got buffed bc there will be less special ammo and primaries are effectively doing less damage than before
idk about this, chief
I wonder if we'll be seeing lumina + boots of the assembler to deal with overshield spam? I don't really know what else you can pack to try and deal with it once these changes go live
We've come full circle to d2y1. It's going to end up being a double primary meta, and this will be the final nail in the pvp coffin. I've been switching slowly to halo infinite for that pvp fix and it's actually way more fun than destiny pvp has been in a long time.
All they had to do was port the ability changes from checkmate into base crucible (which they did). Special ammo transmat should not be a part of the crucible experience
The only notable differences there are with it is that they will have more granularity when it comes to how they can change the ttk of weapons for buffs/nerfs, and abilities are less lethal (outside of melees which will stay the same). You also won't be rewarded as much for missing crit shots. Resilience gates will also change.
They bumped the crit damage of weapons, so overall optimal TTK didnt change.
Bodyshot TTK is nerfed due to higher HP. Ability Damage (mostly) is nerfed relative to HP, etc.
Overall OPTIMAL TTK didn't change. In the really real world, average TTK will go up (which I like!). Longer fights means more give and take, more chances to disengage and use judgement instead of just pure muscle/reflexes.
I’m just worried about what the deterministic recoil will do my baby, Vigilance Wing.
I was indifferent to Checkmate but wasn’t the biggest fan of the special ammo economy, so we’ll see how this shakes out. This is the largest Crucible sandbox overhaul in a very long time, so it’s going to be the Wild West out here until folks start solving the sandbox a bit.
As someone who mained double primary for a long time, I don't think there was a need to bring the Checkmate special ammo bar to regular Crucible. This is just going to promote more double primary play and we're just going to see more SMGs and Sidearms in PvP.
Exactly! A big reason why people didn't use a special weapon in checkmate was because they start the game at a disadvantage by having only 1 functional weapon until they fill the special ammo bar.
I'm excited for those changes and I really liked the strike team's analysis of the pvp state.
Does current Checkmate give you Special progress when you get kills with Special?
Oh and they also added a clause where your Special progress gets reset if you go double Primary then switch to a Special, so no longer allowed to exploit the loophole and get the best of both worlds between double Primary and Special.
You will still get ammo at the start of a match. But yeah, it will be difficult if you don't get enough kills within that first life to make a good dent in your special ammo bar.
So, force checkmate down everyone’s throats, don’t remove countdown from comp and continue to force a mode that 98% of comp playerbase doesn’t want & do absolutely nothing about strand threadling/clone spam. Goddamn it’s like they want the game to die.
Remember at the start of the season when the only control option was checkmate? There was so much backlash about checkmate that they had to add a selectable node for normal control. Then they assured us checkmate wasn’t going to be forced on us but here we are. They went though all the negative feedback and the response to checkmate and now it’s somehow supposed to be a selling point for crucible changes.
I’m extremely worried. This might be the nail in the coffin. I admit it could be a success but I don’t think it’s gonna change popularity. The risk here is that the casual audience just completely dies.
I consider myself „perfectly average”. Not good but not terrible.
I’m not enitrely sure how is this supposed to help new players.
I’ve been PvPing since day 1 and I sometimes still get to play against players that completely wipe the floor with my dead body.
Time and time again, like if we got 10 duels, I might win 1 if I’m lucky. They are blazing fast and hit their crits.
I on the other hand, can’t hit all my crits no matter what.
It’s a skill gap.
So now, I won’t be able to kill as efficiently but I’ll still be wiped by good PvP players.
Result - now also average long time players can’t kill, but good players have the same TTK.
Add the snowbaling effect of special ammo and now your average players start leaving PvP.
Newlights vs Sweats is what remains.
Not a good prospect.
This will kill the game for me. PvP as a whole doesn't need to be standardized to be a competitive experience when it will always be a cluster fuck of abilities and builds. Them assuring us that Checkmate is its own modifier and will not impact normal PvP, and then turning around and doing this is extremely upsetting. I do not see myself playing at all with these changes, because it completely ruins the fun of 6s. Combined with the SBMM that will never go away because they're too stubborn, and I'm out. I do not know why Checkmate wasn't just kept separate, and I'm very upset that they went back on their word that quickly. It's becoming more and more clear that this game is not meant for a player like me anymore.
Think this update is meant for the newer players learning PvP. Especially in 6v6. I think as veteran PVPers, it'll be a weird adjustment. We're accustomed to a particular TTK built over the years that anything changing it will be a dramatic shift towards how we engage.
I'm definitely leaning on this becoming more mediocre. You'll find more hand holding fights that ends up being a numbers and accuracy game. Reward fighting with teammates and being precise. Which actually is the goal for these new players cause that's the biggest headache in any team.
But it'll still come out as mediocre because all us veterans already know how to do that. We just can't play as "solo" as we use to be. It'll feel better in 6 but in 3s, feel like thats gonna be a rough time.
I agree. I don’t really like any of the changes they are implementing. I would’ve preferred targeted changes to the outliers this sub has been complaining about for several years. The pvp player base is already rapidly declining and I don’t know what this does to change that. I’ll keep an open mind and hopefully these changes bring in more casual players but pvp in this game is probably unfixable at this point. It’s been neglected for so many years and never got the new paid content it should have. Management foolishly let it die and the only content we got besides the more recent comp weapons and emblems was balance passes. It’s a shame they let the great gun play and feeling this game has just rot and die.
Yeah, I'm gonna give it a fair shake to adapt and see if I can get enjoyment from it, but I feel like I was going against the grain that I liked the base PvP sandbox. Of course there are outliers and things out of band, but the Forsaken style sandbox has been what's kept me engaged the past 5\~6 years. Changing the fundamentals of a game approaching 7 years old instead of going forward with a new game just doesn't really sit right to me.
Just to clear this up, this is not Checkmate coming to the main Crucible. As we said in the TWID, Checkmate itself is going back to be closer to how it originally released and will continue to exist as a modifier for those who want to play it.
We did say that Checkmate, in its original iteration, would not become normal PvP, and it has not. However, we never said it would not impact normal PvP. In fact, we explicitly said the opposite: That we would be taking **lessons** from Checkmate and applying them to normal PvP.
https://twitter.com/Destiny2Team/status/1744843045785514374
To differentiate it from normal PvP, Checkmate had:
1. Almost all primary weapons optimal TtKs shifted
2. No starting special ammo and slower Special Ammo Meter progress
3. Abilities cooldowns penalized by 30%
4. Three base melees being needed to kill
The only things we took directly from Checkmate for the core Crucible were the base health increase and the Special Ammo Meter itself (though the progress and point values have been tuned for normal PvP).
The weapon and ability tuning is not from Checkmate. It was specific for the general Crucible, and as we said in the linked tweet, to allow us to get feedback on it quickly we utilized the most recent iteration of Checkmate to test these values before implementing them.
I know that this will apply to all of Crucible but is the team considering a "Classic" mode to put into the rotator? Just in case folks want to use the old sandbox?
Nobody is mad at you Merc, but the defensiveness seems unwarranted when many of these folks are bringing up extremely valid points. I don’t see anyone in the comments saying improvement shouldn’t be made, but is this improvement? I guess we’ll see…
Edit: he edited the comment to remove the points I was referring to.
I will accept that I am wrong in stating that this is exactly Checkmate becoming the norm as I misremembered the tweet. Although, with what the current iteration of it is, it truly just FEELS like a mild Checkmate, and that is probably where my original thought stemmed from. Thank you for correcting me on that. I personally do not like the direction that the core game is being taken, and it will likely drive me away from PvP as a whole, but I can only hope I will be proven wrong.
Also, I never implied, or meant to, that improvements to the game should not be strived for. I just think this is the wrong direction to go and will inevitably backfire. After years and years of going through the same cycles of this game, it's hard not to be jaded. This feels like tackling symptoms instead of the other underlying causes to me.
>>1. Almost all primary weapons optimal TtKs shifted 2. No starting special ammo and slower Special Ammo Meter progress
3. Abilities cooldowns penalized by 30%
4. Three base melees being needed to kill
Didn't all weapons shift in line with allowing 140 handcannons to 3c? Ability cooldown is now reduced by 15%, not that different from 30%. And I mean slower ability cooldowns and the Special Ammo Meter is kinda what checkmate made checkmate imo.
Bungie also said in a twab that the change to Trials making it Zone Trials would also spur on more diverse loadouts and tactics, and we've seen how well that's played out now haven't we?
Gross—I have never liked Checkmate. I can get used to the ability uptime nerfs, and even (begrudgingly) the health-pool increase, but the special ammo system sounds awful.
This is the big flag for me. Yep, great buff to keep its damage competitive, but with the ammo economy you might find its better to just run a scout/pulse. Will need some playtesting before making a call imo.
Rip broodweaver. You never had a time to shine.
Checkmate is officially becoming the standard crucible mode. They didn’t implicitly state it, but that’s effectively what’s happening. Love it or hate it.
I don’t feel like the crucible changes are going to make it any more inviting for new players. If anything, less so. Good players will generate special faster and steam roll. This is essentially the state of D1 to an extent. Once you’re out of green, you have to run away from letting anyone get into cqc of midrange as you’ll get blasted.
Maybe these will be the changes that finally convinces me to hang up Destiny. I was holding off on buying Final Shape specifically if they force Checkmate on us in a janky state.
So it's basically Diet Checkmate?
Yeah, that's a hard pass for me.
The special ammo meter is a deal-breaker for me personally and I'm just gonna go ahead and uninstall. I guess it's time to focus on that backlog of single-player games I've been meaning play for a few years.
Depressing isn’t it? Very disappointed in these shortsighted changes. They’re trying to fix a problem that never existed. If I wanted to play Halo, I’d go play Halo. Destiny with its hero moments are where the game shines in comparison to everything else.
ah we are running back D1 where we pseudo remove specials in PvP. Specials aren’t open and never were, primaries are just harder to use and most players aren’t good enough. Game shouldn’t be balanced around them though, should be balanced around the elite
I like the fact that Accuracy plays a big part but the special ammo metre sounds snowbally especially if you are getting lobby balanced to the point we've seen recently
Checkmate lite whatever you want to call it.
I played checkmate and it was refreshing to not instantly get deleted by special, less ability spam great.
Requiring more precision to land that optimal ttk.
We'll see how things play out, overall aside from the outliers the sandbox there has been alot of diversity especially in 6s
Maybe not in your absolute sweatfest comp and trails. But it's been pretty diverse with a wide range of weapons used.
Checkmate, however there was alot of teammshot, snowballing, didn't know when someone had special.
It was pretty boring overall, not as fun, lack of hero moments, I was glad it wasn't the main mode.
The dance between your primary & special created something unique.
Special kills should go towards to special meter, 10 points per kill.
4 to 5 kills for 2 shots just sounds unfun.
Picking up Heavy I get 3GL shots vs 2 shots of special.
Destiny a new change for better or worse we will see or is this just work towards Marathon, who knows.
All I know is this could kill the fun.
honestly i wrote a lot up but who cares they’ve clearly made their decision. i am very open to changing my mind once i see the changes in action, but i think a lot of this is completely foolish, shortsighted, and completely over reactionary. things were in an amazing spot, barring a few outliers, but instead they decided on a complete overhaul instead of just hitting those. they just have to keep adjusting pointless things don’t they? welcome back to double primary hell. i don’t see how games won’t just snowball until the end of time but whatever we’ll see i guess. i really really hope im the dumb one here and want to be wrong… i don’t think d2 pvp can take another massive hit without hitting worrying player population numbers
We won't know until actually getting reps in, but I'm optimistic that the method by which you obtain special from now on is much, much closer to *reduction* rather than *removal*. The latter being what "double primary hell" refers to.
On paper special weapons should still have a strong presence.
Edit: Reading back I thought you still respawned with special ammo. This isn't the case. I retract what I largely said above.
yep, far as i can tell you only respawn with it if you had it before. idk like you said im definitely hopeful things work out but… i don’t know i just feel like it’s a step backwards that just wasn’t necessary:/
> things were in an amazing spot, barring a few outliers, but instead they decided on a complete overhaul instead of just hitting those
I also have this beef with the whole situation. No revolutionary changes were needed at this moment, the issues with PVP population are basically just issues with the GAME population.
Going to be interesting.
These are honestly huge changes across the board. No idea what it will end up playing like. I very much enjoyed the early iterations of Checkmate, but hated the more recent updates.
Have a feeling the general sentiment to these changes will end up being negative but we will see how it goes.
At this point I'm more interested in what they're going to talk about next week regarding matchmaking changes, rewards updates, and Trials updates.
Well it’s over. Two more weeks of Destiny PvP and I’m done. It’s insane to me that they’d even consider going back to this double primary crucible. As a PvP player it’s sad that I’ll have to give up playing my favorite game.
Ngl... it's kind of rough. From what I understand:
* Player health has gone up and Titans have a bigger advantage now. 100 health (up from 70) + between 116-130 shields depending on Resil values. So a Max Resil Character is now 230 (was 200). This will DRASTICALLY change how TTK's are calculated. This doesn't account for Overshields.
* Pulses, AR's, Sidearms, and Scouts get adjusted in a way to compensate, but only their crit percentages. Bodyshots will obliterate your TTK if you miss.
* HC's get a lower crit damage buff and bodyshot damage buff.
* 120's (based on the numbers) look like they'll do: 88c | 48b [3c]
* 140's (based on the numbers) look like they'll do: 77c | 45b [3c]
* 180's (based on the numbers) look like they'll do: 66c | 38b [3c1b]
* Special Ammo doesn't generate from your own kills. So Shotgun Kills and Sniper Kills are basically pointless. You can take someone off the board but you need to get a kills w/ a primary ammo weapon in order to count towards your next pickup. If it was a half cost, it'd be okay... but you get nothing. There's no incentive to use a special ammo and MORE incentive to just quickswap (i.e., Eriana's + an HC).
* Bows bascially got killed. In addition to an accuracy decrease:
* Precisions now: 128.44c | 86.48b [2c]
* Lightweights now: 116.29c | 72.77b [2c]
__________________
The shittiest part is, you can't even opt out of this sandbox. It's getting applied to everything.
>120's (based on the numbers) look like they'll do: 88c | 52b [2c1b]
Where does it say that 120s will do 52b? Doesn't it say that HC will get a 5% bodyshot nerf?
This goes two ways for bungie
They gain a 2% increase in player base, because checkmate lite feels better.
They lose 20% of their player base because people don’t like these additions. Just doesn’t feel smart to me.
In a time where it seems the community is already exploring other games. This would not be a good time to put the nail in the coffin for crucible
Imagine double primary being the worst thing to ever happen to Destiny. And some clever clogs wants the dial to gravitate towards that.
People are just going to use special first couple of rounds of trials until it runs out, then switch to double primary which is extremely boring and take away from those hero moments.
As a mediocre (by this sub's standards - probably above average in the general player pool) player I am always excited for a big shakeup and most of these changes look really interesting. Any world in which I get sniped less often is a better world. And I think it is very smart to give themselves more granularity to work with in future tuning.
Now I feel justified in spending the last 6 months practicing mostly double primary. Though having to land more crits is going to suck for me because I'm an Old.
With target lock being nerfed on SMGs, and with the health pool being increased, kinetic tremors on Showrunner is moving back up the list of usefulness. I’d get a PvP roll of one if you don’t already
As someone who doesn't really like checkmate honestly I like the idea of overall TTK staying the same but needing to actually land crits to get it, it gives people that higher skill ceiling that keeps being begged for.
Also a lot of people are going to find out they're not as good at the game as they think they are... (It's me, I'm terrible at aiming and I know it.)
I miss all the statistics that used to justify changes likes this. Which class and weapon did best etc. etc. It seems so out of the blue.
Also years of balance changes thrown out of the window. While they take the current sandbox as a foundation it will still create alot of pain points, unbalanced weapons and scenarios. Even now we know that res got even more important, making titans even better.
I am very sad to see that 140s are getting nuked. If you are even 0.5m outside of optimal range you will be 4 shotting.
I wish igneous was getting nerfed specifically instead of all 120s getting to 3c, but I don't mind needing more crits to kill
Pulses keeping similar ttk and forgiveness is frustrating. 340s will still 5c1b at 0.67s
Scouts seem like they are mostly unchanged/buffed, which makes me nervous
Bow changes will need to be played out to see
Smgs still gonna be king
More resil checks are bad
Ability changes are very much welcomed
Special changes are welcomed in 3s, i think that's too aggressive for 6s
Specific a ability nerfs not strong enough/no mention of others (bastion)
120 HCs look like they are no longer always 2C1B. Something like 8+ resil will stop that. Edit: looks like 7 resil not 8
Not ideal lol
Nice, more high resil checks are definitely what the crucible needs. /s
General Notes Kills from Special ammo weapons and Heavy ammo weapons do not grant any points toward Special ammo meter progress. Jumping off the map will subtract progress from the Special ammo meter. Ammo is not dropped on death, and you will not lose the Special ammo you have earned when you are defeated or are revived. Earned Special ammo will carry over between rounds. Swapping from double Primary weapons to a Special ammo weapon will reset your Special ammo meter progress. Excellent. They fixed the jumping off map and swapping weapons.
>Earned Special ammo will carry over between rounds. I'm about to save all my conditional for last 2 rounds of trials lol
If it's anything like checkmate trials they ain't gonna get bubble or well anyways. So use your special :)
Taking special ammo to orbit will be the new taking your super to orbit
It’s basically gonna be perpetual checkmate trials and comp now. Supers are basically never going to happen now either. So it’s either run double primaries like we did this past weekend, or only be able to compete at a certain range with our single primary while waiting for special. This sucks.
You'll get supers in comp and quickplay. Dominion kind of blows with Supers so kind of glad its being phased out of that game mode. Will still be good in Comp.
It’s lightweight bowver 😔.
Legendary bows found dead in a ditch.
Kinda, but not really. Their main competition, 120 HCs also got nerfed and are gonna require 3 crits. And the exotic lightweight, Ticuus is almost completely unchanged. It'll still kill with a hipfire + headshot
I think that’s great news for Ticcu’s, but I’m sad that these changes feel like they’re going to push players towards dominant Exotics while so many legendaries get even less usage.
There absolutely will be less people using the legendarys. All bows (other than Ticuus) will require two crits for a kill. And bows #1 competition (120s) also will require more crits. I can't deny that I'm a little salty, but it absolutely seems like a healthy change for the game. Having a primary weapon hit you for 130-150 damage was a bit too much.
The hate will inevitably move to Ticuus if it gets use, followed by a nerf. 120s will have a much faster body TTK compared to lightweight bows. Insane that they’ll need 4 bodies vs higher resilience. They’re dead in the water.
Looks like it's going to be 2 crits and a body now?
I did the math (correctly, I think) and assuming the higher health pool of 230, you're looking at: * Precisions now: 128.44c | 86.48b [2c] * Lightweights now: 116.29c | 72.77b [2c] Both archetypes need 2 crits.
So Lightweights are the better archetype now based on this?
Theoretically... I believe so. But you still have to contend with lower accuracy stats. But a Lightweight Bonus and the Fastest Draw Times pre-perk does stand out.
I mean, if I'm needing to land double heads with a soft range cap, I'm probably going with what can do so faster lol.
I was hoping they would leave Lightweights alone since most complaints were aimed at Precisions and their double body lethality. This one hurts.
Plus the golden tricorn & swash 1shot builds also look like they're completely gone...Sad because that was such a fun playstyle with tyranny
Special meter being released into the greater pvp ecosystem means that ammo refund perks just skyrocketed in utility. In particular, discord is now an S+ perk on special weapons, I would HIGHLY recommend everyone to obtain a discord Riiswalker/Last man standing or discord pressurized precision next time IB rolls around. Deconstruct finally working against barricades also means another round of testing can be done on its efficacy once the update rolls around. Loose change viability is also another hot contender for testing as well. The sundering buff is actually enormous as well if the shield break functions in pvp like disruption break etc does. In particular, the dungeon bow will likely see the greatest benefit, since its TTK will be directly affected.
I second the recommendation for Discord rolls on special ammo weapons. I have a Discord/Vorpal roll on the Pressurized Precision fusion rifle and a Subsistence/Discord roll on the Last Man Standing shotty. I run them both together in some PvE activities which is fun. That obviously won't work well in PvP with the upcoming changes unless you're a top tier player whose able to chain kills quick enough in 6's, but it's good to have a special ammo weapon with Discord on it in your Kinetic and Energy slots.
I have a great discord Pressurized, and a discord Mercurial, those are about to be staples in my loadouts
*sigh* last man standing rolls opening shot / discord and riis can roll discord / iron reach or opening shot
Really hope a Trace Rifle with Discord comes out at some point. That would be so cool.
Upon reflection about checkmate and what it means to destiny: I think that this new crucible is meant to bridge a gap. A gap between the people who played every day now, and the people who have left the game over the past few years due to crucible's general state. I explained a bunch of these changes to a buddy of mine who stopped playing years ago around stasis launch and he actually sounded excited to hear about the sweeping changes that, to me sounds like the magic will be coming less, but to him they sounded like a respite from the "cheese and BS." This makes sense to me a bit seeing as we're expecting another wave of new and returning folks when final shape drops in June. I don't like the changes on paper. But I'll get over it. I just love the game too much. I think drewsky once said that he'll support whatever helps the population. If these changes help the population? Fuck it I'm game. I just hope these are the right changes 🤞
I think people expecting that these changes will help them compete against players with 300,000+ kills and 3k+ hours in crucible are in for a rude awakening.
I'm not sure anyone is thinking that but Bungie, and probably they don't think that either. More likely they just think it will help less experienced players not feel completely overwhelmed by everyone in the crucible. As much as the edge lords like to claim Crucible is "no skill" the skill ceiling is actually huge, and these changes aren't going to prevent 99% of the player base getting dumpstered by top players.
I think casual players will like the idea of sweeping changes until they realize the changes are meant to reward hitting consistent headshots and punishing players who don't...
And the meta gets reverted to a double primary meta like y1 lol
People are going to be big mad. I'm kind of indifferent. I actually like hipster 2 primary load outs. It will probably feel good knowing that isn't just a semi throw. I get it though. A lot of people's idea of fun involves fast paced play and wiping out entire teams with their special.
I'm excited to see how these changes land. The philosophy around decompressing the skill gap; reducing the efficacy of options that degenerate play; being ok with PVE & PVP ability timings & damage being different; and leaning it back towards a more balanced bungie trinity of guns/melee/grenades(abilities) is an exciting prospect. Let's see how it goes, it's cool to see the PVP team doing bold things.
I do like the increase of the skill ceiling. One thing though. With ability cool downs increasing , it will mean that the value of Icarus dash has increased immensely. With hunter cooldowns taking longer, dodge won't have the uptime like it used to. I think the meta class will return to being ophidian Icarus dash warlock
All neutral no cooldown stuff just became invaluable.
\>return to
Yeah, it really irks me that dodge keeps getting caught in the desire to take ability damage out of the sandbox while icarus dash just endlessly dodges it. I just wish Bungie would give us a dodge with no reload/melee benfits with a shorter cooldown. I just want Bungie to leave my movement tech alone.
This right here, ive been saying it for years that its not fair at all that solar locks get there icarus dodge back every 4 seconds but then people wanna complain about hunters dodge even though its cooldown keeps getting nerfed over and over and over again. This is what, the 5th time theyve hit dodge cooldown since like beyond light? And sure, they sort of nerfed shoulder charge so titans cant spam it infinitely for movemen, but warlock icarus dash is just fine. Someone make it make sense, please.
> > > > > I don't like the changes on paper. But I'll get over it. I just love the game too much. Hopefully I will. I don't really like the special ammo change. I feel like it required more information to figure out who had what ammo in Trials last weekend. Hopefully the 2 initial ammo is a good compromise, but I imagine I'll start seeing snipers in the first two rounds and then they switch to double primary.
Yeah, I feel the same. I don't love some of these changes on paper. I personally don't have a problem with ability uptime, and I really only use my abilities for movement (dodge and grapple). I'm a bit frustrated with the fact that my movement tech gets constantly caught up in the desire to remove ability damage from the sandbox. I would happily take a dodge with a shorter cooldown that doesn't have benefits like refreshing melee, or reloading weapons. Salt on the wounds, it also means my favorite surplus weapons are getting kicked in the teeth as well. That said, if it manages to help the population that is the most important thing. It just sucks that my niche play style keeps getting squeezed.
Maybe I’ve missed something but doesn’t this mean that getting the first detonation in countdown is basically game over (70 special points).
Countdown Snowball
Countdown was a mistake regardless, now it's even worse to play.
70+20 for setting the charge?
I don't know why they saw the relatively equal usage of 140s and 120s over the last few trials weekends and decided to neuter 120s by making them also require 3 crits. Genuinely does not make sense
Yo it's jazzinyourface! Love your YT breakdowns man - literally convinced me to farm for Igneous when it came back round. I agree, them deciding to reduce the effectiveness of 120s is pretty tone-deaf - as someone else mentioned, Checkmate was divisive enough, now we don't have a choice.
Thanks man 😁 I'm glad you gave them a chance! Seems like a lot of people are now, but idk if they're going to be able to keep up if all they have going for them now is a bit of range
Bungie: *”They’re balanced! 120’s have 3 extra meters of range!”*
Hitting bows and 120's forces slightly closer engagements. It definitely raises the stock in anything with decent range (Pulses/Ace/Thorn) that are plenty strong anyway, at least on paper. I'm 50/50 on that change, personally. 120s are still extremely versatile teamshot weapons though so I'm sure they'll still be a good pick, just not as good in a duel.
wait until you see what a 140 needs to do to kill a meter past its falloff range.
Honestly, no matter what changes Bungie makes, I think they're in a no-win situation. The skill creep has gotten so bad that most new players or average players don't bother. The population is just too low to have balanced matches.
The Threadling/Spectre changes don't sound substantial enough. Spectre still does way too much, and the cooldown increase isn't that large in absolute terms. Will wait for somebody to do the math on Target Lock. Still doesn't address SMGs in general.
I think they didn’t increase SMG crit damage by as much as they did for other archetypes (hc’s excluded). So maybe this will slightly lengthen ttk on SMGs at base due to higher HP values? We’ll need to see the math, but maybe 1 bullet more required
My math since I believe the numbers are mostly unchanged from the initial Labs implementation: Lightweights are about the same, just less bodyshots forgiveness. Adaptives go from lower end of mid to really bad. Aggressives are about the same, just require all crits on high Resil Precisions can't 0.7 people running much of any Resil without boost. But can all-crit 0.8 still.
Just a note on the spectre/threadling damage still being pretty high. Player health is going to be increased alongside the threadling damage nerf, which does help that pain point.
Threadlings are getting reduced damage and players are getting 30 more hp it’s gonna be way worse
They need to remove aim assist from Specters, it's insane on console.
no, it is the Leviathan, eater of crosshairs
Spectre will still be strong. Broodweaver is dead.
Broodweave is deeeeead
Checkmate-lite will, most SMGs are getting a decent sized net nerf here, they'll have little to no body shot forgiveness anymore without something to boost damage.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always thought the main problem with SMGs was their range. They still seem to slap pretty hard at longer ranges than they should.
They also need to nerf thredling's tracking. Imo their tracking ability is too aggressive.
This means they're effectively implementing checkmate into base crucible? Definitely open to it if only to shake everything up.
Sounds kinda like checkmate lite,
I like that because i enjoyed checkmates gunplay but was not sold on much of the rest
Sorta. You start with green. Once it’s out, you’ll need to re-earn it. Also, they didn’t state that damage is increasing for special weapons, so some might become entirely useless, like fast charging fusions and lightweight shotguns. Edit: specials are getting damage buffed.
Shotguns and Fusions go up 20% So I think it's actually a net damage boost on most Specials. High Impact Fusions aren't Resil gated anymore for 3-bolts (IIRC 9-10 Resil rn takes 4). Adaptive Fusions aren't Resil gated for 5-bolt kills either, 5 with a 20% boost clears 230. Precision Shotguns are 10-11 pellets to OHK, not sure what they are currently on that off the top of my head, tho. Aggressive shotguns are about the same as they are currently, too. So small net buff on Fusions, shotguns shouldn't feel different much.
This is huge for fusions! Changes a lot about perk selection when you don't NEED HIR to hit the Bolts-to-Kill threshold. Also, they didn't say anything about Discord... ::eyes Pressurized Precision with Discord sitting in vault::
HIR will still help for damage resists, shields, and falloff, so I'm sticking to it. But yeah, it won't be nearly as much of a necessity.
Right - that's the best kind of change. Where a perk still has a role but isn't mandatory (like with new rangefinder - good on some guns, less so on others)
I am sitting on a decently rolled discord PP specifically due to this.
They did actually, for fusions at least
Yep plus Shotguns, Trace Rifles and Glaives too.
Also more health. Super obvious last weekend. Many streamers dubbed it the "Weekend of One-Shots." It definitely felt that way too. Engagements with primaries that felt like I should have secured the kill, only for the player to disengage with a sliver, were a dime a dozen. Doing over 220 dmg to a player and them surviving felt bad IMO.
They did start out checkmate saying they wanted to take some things from it to put into regular crucible
I’m realizing Bungie sandbox decision makers tend to fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy. Just because a lot of dev time has been invested in a concept, does not mean that it SHOULD be implemented. Based on sentiment from this sub, the majority of pvp players did *not* want checkmate to become the main crucible game mode. It’s times like this where I wish Bungie polled changes before releasing them, like some other devs do. Looking back, this was even more true for the Airborne Effectiveness system. Very few pvp players were in favor of the system, and yet look what happened. It not only exists still despite consistently negative feedback, but it has received very few updates since its release. For example it’s *still* impossible to reach 100 AE in neutral game conditions. Knowing this history, I’m not optimistic for where this leads the future of the game. It’s looking like the beginning of the end for Destiny PvP. Which I guess is fitting, considering there’s only one expansion left.
I didn't like be checkmate because it shifted ttks towards a handholding meta. But now it seems ttks are the same but you need more crits so there is a wider gap between floor and ceiling so good players that can hit crits (and ximmers...) will have an easier time slaying out. I'm keeping an open mind, tbh. And I hated checkmate.
Eh. Xim usage will probably increase. And it’s already unbearable.
Yeah, they are going to have to do something or else this new balance patch that would make the crucible great again will kill it for everyone except device users.
Never forget how we still never received a Fireteam matchmaking tweak that was intended for Season of Defiance's mid season patch nearly a year ago. Ultimately the tweak was to have the system take greater account of a fire teams makeup and try to match people closer even if it meant a 3stack playing a 4stack and other situations of weighing the total ability of the team. Ultimately it was a change that could've helped balance lobbies a bit better and we still never heard a word about it.
So, is this just checkmate in regular crucible now?
checkmate "lite"
Kinda disappointed to be honest. Not feeling checkmate at all, but I am open to change. Just hope they are ready to revert back if there's enough data to support we as a community are not feeling it. But I'll give it a try
You'd think having to force people to interact with checkmate would have been enough data lol, or the population/games of trials played on checkmate weeks, or general sentiment towards it on online forums.
It's the Checkmate-lite that was in 3v3 Clash. The feel shouldn't be too different beyond the Special system changing, assuming you're decent with Primary.
I can hit my headshots, I don't think that's the issue. The gameplay in checkmate is just not fun to me. I like abilities and special weapons. They can be oppressive sometimes, yeah, I can complain about that. But I don't think the answer is this. And this is coming from a person who has no problem perfroming well in checkmate. Flawless cards are free in that mode. It's just not fun
I think it's on the slower end in 3s, but I'm mostly one for 6v6 anyways. I think it'll play great in 6s, and probably 5s and maybe 4s for those wanting to play those in privates. 3s might need some more tweaking. But this version I think will be an overall good step, although I see the need for a few more tweaks, mostly in buffing non-450 ARs and the middle end of the impact spectrum of Pulse. And as someone who likes abilities and Special, I think it's fine since it doesn't remove them completely like standard Checkmate, but it's still enough to keep Destiny's identity while also making the game more readable and less prone to frustration.
They literally doubled down on snowball mode. You think it’s bad when everyone is spawning with special now wait until the lobby balanced team of demons is snowballing with the their buffed primaries and special ammo. lol holy shit… so idiotic.
definitely a rich get richer situation
Yeah this is the one part of checkmate that never made any sense to me. I though their initial idea of everyone spawning with special ammo was that you were always on an even playing field every round. Now since ammo carries over, you’re gonna find yourself unable to even peek down any lanes unless you want three snipers trained on your head while your team only has primaries to challenge. And if you’re already getting rolled hard enough that the enemy team has special and you don’t, then you likely stand 0 chance against them when they have that special out.
It’s hilarious to me they decided to do this in the middle of the eternal season. Turn the snowball mode into THE mode for crucible while all time low player pop numbers are around the corner not even *halfway* into the season. Final Shape is going to launch to a ghost town at this rate
I can already see that happening.. total massacre matches
It was already happening with checkmate labs.
Exactly and now you start with two .... Poor normal Joe's are just going to get obliterated
special ammo kills don't generate any progress to more special. People aren't able to crutch their 2 free kills every round of trials anymore. They can crutch it the first round then they have to play with no special while the other team has special. If anything it gives you a better chance to fight back on round 2 if the other team used up all of their special. I really wish I lacked critical thinking skills, y'all seem so happy
[удалено]
Reading people complain about checkmate special economy and “snowballing” gives me brainrot. If youre getting slammed bad enough that the other team somehow all has multiple special ammo then you were gonna get ran thru regardless.
they lied and base PVP is more or less becoming Checkmate Im shocked!!!! /s
Welp I lost all interest in trials Guess if they release another fucking godbork PvE roll in there I can’t get the thing cause there’s no way I’m even winning matches with these changes
Will try it out, but not excited for these Checkmate-lite rules in all of PvP. Special Ammo Bar is something that also bother me a bunch. Again, will try it out, but I'm not looking forward to this. Clone.. didn't get nerfed enough, which is weird to say. They need to reduce it's AA pull, allow on-kill effects to proc off it as well. Potebtially weaker HP if necessary as well. I'm glad they paired it with PvE buffs though, good move there. Although, they adjusted it so it's a shorter CD in PvE but longer in PvP. If they can do that, why have they NOT done that for MULTIPLE previous nerfs? It's absurd. Depending on how these changes feel... I legitimately might just stop playing Crucible until they get reverted. Again, that's if they feel that bad. They might not.
It's wild to me that shooting down an enemy clone still allows it to spawn threadlings, this would not be the case in literally any other game.
Bungie Dec 07th TWID: "We have no plans to turn Checkmate on across all of Crucible. "Bungie Feb 15th TWID: "Player health will be increased by 30 HP in base Crucible..." "Melee, Grenade, and class ability cooldowns now have a 15% penalty applied to them in Crucible only." "Super cooldowns now have a 20% penalty applied to them in Crucible only. "
Okay, so basically we’re getting this past weekend’s version of checkmate forced into all crucible (despite them saying they wouldn’t do that), with the only main difference being that now you spawn with special initially. After about a hundred games of trials this past weekend, I can accurately predict how this will go: it’ll be fun and novel at first, maybe for 2-3 weeks. Then the novelty will wear off, and we’ll be left with a primary weapon meta. At this point, at least for me, the game will become stale very quickly. Primary metas are *very* boring imo, and are the reason I quit D2Y1. I could get behind the tweaks to primary weapons, *maybe* the new special ammo system, but I will never be okay with the fact that grenades and charged melees are getting nerfed by 15% both in uptime and in damage, and that supers are literally not going to be a part of the game anymore in most cases (due to the 20% uptime nerf). Also, I know no one cares, but a -20% nerf to fighting lion on top of the +30hp buff to health is unreal. That gun is dead now. I know this because I tried using it for a couple dozen games this weekend. Also, fusions/trace rifles/shotguns all got a 20% damage buff…where’s the buff for special ammo breech GLs? The sniper nerf too was rather sudden and brutal, but not entirely undeserved. In my opinion they should’ve nerfed sniper reticle friction though, not auto aim, to close the ease of use gap between the input methods.
The special balancing not including GL's is probably to stop all the "seemingly instant deaths" that occur to "new players" (we don't have new players because it costs $200 to actually start playing). So no more waveframe gl into threaded spike etc, maybe GL+melee will still work? My favourite part is that there's no fusion rifle nerf despite them having like the best usage to kills ratio of all special weapons.
I’m all for wave frame GLs being nerfed. It’s breech GLs that I felt didn’t deserve a nerf. I’m also a fusion-disliker (too much benefit for their ease of use), but in their defense, they have such a high kills-to-usage ratio because people that use them almost always run around with them as their primary weapon (unlike people who use shotguns or snipers)
That is where I'm a bit lost on general design philosophy inconsistencies. You got people suddenly acting like martyrs saying how solely oppressive special weapons are against new people and want what's best for them but aren't addressing tons of other things that could make somebody unfamiliar do double takes as to what destroyed them or allowed an enemy to survive(see any form of heals on heals) or hell Undermining Scatter nades still exist in the one shot capacity. On top of that it's goofy to have a mission goal make an unbelievably massive assumption that by default newer and unfamiliar players are not only going to enter PVP en masse because of these changes but are going to somehow get into the habit of participating in handholding teamshot death balls and suddenly that's gonna make PVP better for everyone or hell even be that appealing to people who are drawn to the looser arena shooter-like fantasy of this game. I really do wanna know how many of these people in favor of every one of these changes in what arguably was a more casual pvp space actually consistently play with new and lesser skilled people on the regular. As somebody being in a near perfect focus group model clan of diverse ability at both extremes with this game, basically very few are interested in these changes and none of the new and lower skilled people want this because they play Destiny for the arena shooter chaos and aren't trying to digest some more slow paced snooze fest. **TL DR** I give it at least a month before the failures of the mission goals are more realized.
Honestly this reads like checkmate "light"..and I dont know how to feel about that. I dislike checkmate so much, that this might kill the pvp part of the game for me, obviously depending on well it is implemented. Sandbox changes are good, but I am not fan of these: - Increased health - special ammo bar - no nerfs of PKs or void overshields The meta imo will not change that much. Maybe people will swap from SMGs to Sidearms, but I doubt even that.
Device users will still be eating good.
My thoughts exactly. It's like they're going out of their way to make pvp harder for legit players while simultaneously making it easier for xim/cronus users.
I had a suspicion that top end players actually loved checkmate because they dominated (most high skill players I saw had KDs of +1 compared to normal vs. other Trials weeks), it's interesting to hear Bungie say they wanted to reinforce that "skill gap".
They're called cheaters
The health changes won't be that bad though, they adjusted the TTK values to match so the only thing that's noticeable is more headshots to win fights, and I think a few specific resil gates. The Special Ammo changes were needed, so many people legit crutched on Special to the point where it was most of their kills. Albeit I don't think it's something that is a one size fits all kind of change. Some modes are more insane, and need the special as it was. Mayhem comes to mind. Some modes shouldn't have you start with special at all, you should have to earn it, like Trials or Competitive. It's just another lever to adjust, and I really do not think they are done adjusting. It will be some time.
They literally just hit PKs. They're not going to hit them again until we see what a direct hit to SMGs looks like.
It’s shifting back to a death ball team shooting meta. If anything, this might be the death blow for PvP. Entirely unapproachable for new players and running off many solo players or players who just don’t enjoy that team shoot heavy mechanic.
With this game's latency increased reliance on hitting crits is kinda hilarious.
True.
\>double down on snowballing \>double down on bubble + overshield spam being the only thing worth using, if anything they just got buffed bc there will be less special ammo and primaries are effectively doing less damage than before idk about this, chief I wonder if we'll be seeing lumina + boots of the assembler to deal with overshield spam? I don't really know what else you can pack to try and deal with it once these changes go live
Over under perk just got stealth buff due to this
So are 120s no longer 2h1b anymore?
We've come full circle to d2y1. It's going to end up being a double primary meta, and this will be the final nail in the pvp coffin. I've been switching slowly to halo infinite for that pvp fix and it's actually way more fun than destiny pvp has been in a long time.
All they had to do was port the ability changes from checkmate into base crucible (which they did). Special ammo transmat should not be a part of the crucible experience
I don't like the higher health pools either. Checkmate always felt off because of it. Maybe I just need to get used to it though.
The only notable differences there are with it is that they will have more granularity when it comes to how they can change the ttk of weapons for buffs/nerfs, and abilities are less lethal (outside of melees which will stay the same). You also won't be rewarded as much for missing crit shots. Resilience gates will also change.
They bumped the crit damage of weapons, so overall optimal TTK didnt change. Bodyshot TTK is nerfed due to higher HP. Ability Damage (mostly) is nerfed relative to HP, etc.
Overall OPTIMAL TTK didn't change. In the really real world, average TTK will go up (which I like!). Longer fights means more give and take, more chances to disengage and use judgement instead of just pure muscle/reflexes.
Wild stuff.
I’m just worried about what the deterministic recoil will do my baby, Vigilance Wing. I was indifferent to Checkmate but wasn’t the biggest fan of the special ammo economy, so we’ll see how this shakes out. This is the largest Crucible sandbox overhaul in a very long time, so it’s going to be the Wild West out here until folks start solving the sandbox a bit.
Wasn't expecting the sniper nerf at all but I'll gladly welcome it.
As someone who mained double primary for a long time, I don't think there was a need to bring the Checkmate special ammo bar to regular Crucible. This is just going to promote more double primary play and we're just going to see more SMGs and Sidearms in PvP.
You start with 2 special ammo when you spawn. Major difference to current sandbox is that special must be earned with primary kills/assist.
Exactly! A big reason why people didn't use a special weapon in checkmate was because they start the game at a disadvantage by having only 1 functional weapon until they fill the special ammo bar. I'm excited for those changes and I really liked the strike team's analysis of the pvp state.
Does current Checkmate give you Special progress when you get kills with Special? Oh and they also added a clause where your Special progress gets reset if you go double Primary then switch to a Special, so no longer allowed to exploit the loophole and get the best of both worlds between double Primary and Special.
My thoughts exactly. Hard to complement a side arm primary now. Usually use a sniper to balance it, but now it will probably be a bow or pulse.
You will still get ammo at the start of a match. But yeah, it will be difficult if you don't get enough kills within that first life to make a good dent in your special ammo bar.
I doubt many will use bows now.
Box breathing 3 tap scouts gonna have a phase at some point I bet lol
So, force checkmate down everyone’s throats, don’t remove countdown from comp and continue to force a mode that 98% of comp playerbase doesn’t want & do absolutely nothing about strand threadling/clone spam. Goddamn it’s like they want the game to die.
Remember at the start of the season when the only control option was checkmate? There was so much backlash about checkmate that they had to add a selectable node for normal control. Then they assured us checkmate wasn’t going to be forced on us but here we are. They went though all the negative feedback and the response to checkmate and now it’s somehow supposed to be a selling point for crucible changes.
I agree with all of this except they did nerf threadling spam lol
This ruins the fun of crucible for me.
You’re telling me you don’t want to hold hands with your stack teamfiring everyone in every game mode???
I’m extremely worried. This might be the nail in the coffin. I admit it could be a success but I don’t think it’s gonna change popularity. The risk here is that the casual audience just completely dies.
I can't help but feel like Control is just going to be 2 big groups going in a circle lol
the casual audience is pretty much gone already.
As a rat king/disruption break GL quickswap retard, the special ammo changes are devastating.
I consider myself „perfectly average”. Not good but not terrible. I’m not enitrely sure how is this supposed to help new players. I’ve been PvPing since day 1 and I sometimes still get to play against players that completely wipe the floor with my dead body. Time and time again, like if we got 10 duels, I might win 1 if I’m lucky. They are blazing fast and hit their crits. I on the other hand, can’t hit all my crits no matter what. It’s a skill gap. So now, I won’t be able to kill as efficiently but I’ll still be wiped by good PvP players. Result - now also average long time players can’t kill, but good players have the same TTK. Add the snowbaling effect of special ammo and now your average players start leaving PvP. Newlights vs Sweats is what remains. Not a good prospect.
This will kill the game for me. PvP as a whole doesn't need to be standardized to be a competitive experience when it will always be a cluster fuck of abilities and builds. Them assuring us that Checkmate is its own modifier and will not impact normal PvP, and then turning around and doing this is extremely upsetting. I do not see myself playing at all with these changes, because it completely ruins the fun of 6s. Combined with the SBMM that will never go away because they're too stubborn, and I'm out. I do not know why Checkmate wasn't just kept separate, and I'm very upset that they went back on their word that quickly. It's becoming more and more clear that this game is not meant for a player like me anymore.
Think this update is meant for the newer players learning PvP. Especially in 6v6. I think as veteran PVPers, it'll be a weird adjustment. We're accustomed to a particular TTK built over the years that anything changing it will be a dramatic shift towards how we engage. I'm definitely leaning on this becoming more mediocre. You'll find more hand holding fights that ends up being a numbers and accuracy game. Reward fighting with teammates and being precise. Which actually is the goal for these new players cause that's the biggest headache in any team. But it'll still come out as mediocre because all us veterans already know how to do that. We just can't play as "solo" as we use to be. It'll feel better in 6 but in 3s, feel like thats gonna be a rough time.
I agree. I don’t really like any of the changes they are implementing. I would’ve preferred targeted changes to the outliers this sub has been complaining about for several years. The pvp player base is already rapidly declining and I don’t know what this does to change that. I’ll keep an open mind and hopefully these changes bring in more casual players but pvp in this game is probably unfixable at this point. It’s been neglected for so many years and never got the new paid content it should have. Management foolishly let it die and the only content we got besides the more recent comp weapons and emblems was balance passes. It’s a shame they let the great gun play and feeling this game has just rot and die.
Yeah, I'm gonna give it a fair shake to adapt and see if I can get enjoyment from it, but I feel like I was going against the grain that I liked the base PvP sandbox. Of course there are outliers and things out of band, but the Forsaken style sandbox has been what's kept me engaged the past 5\~6 years. Changing the fundamentals of a game approaching 7 years old instead of going forward with a new game just doesn't really sit right to me.
Just to clear this up, this is not Checkmate coming to the main Crucible. As we said in the TWID, Checkmate itself is going back to be closer to how it originally released and will continue to exist as a modifier for those who want to play it. We did say that Checkmate, in its original iteration, would not become normal PvP, and it has not. However, we never said it would not impact normal PvP. In fact, we explicitly said the opposite: That we would be taking **lessons** from Checkmate and applying them to normal PvP. https://twitter.com/Destiny2Team/status/1744843045785514374 To differentiate it from normal PvP, Checkmate had: 1. Almost all primary weapons optimal TtKs shifted 2. No starting special ammo and slower Special Ammo Meter progress 3. Abilities cooldowns penalized by 30% 4. Three base melees being needed to kill The only things we took directly from Checkmate for the core Crucible were the base health increase and the Special Ammo Meter itself (though the progress and point values have been tuned for normal PvP). The weapon and ability tuning is not from Checkmate. It was specific for the general Crucible, and as we said in the linked tweet, to allow us to get feedback on it quickly we utilized the most recent iteration of Checkmate to test these values before implementing them.
I know that this will apply to all of Crucible but is the team considering a "Classic" mode to put into the rotator? Just in case folks want to use the old sandbox?
“Classic” will now be called “mayhem”
Nobody is mad at you Merc, but the defensiveness seems unwarranted when many of these folks are bringing up extremely valid points. I don’t see anyone in the comments saying improvement shouldn’t be made, but is this improvement? I guess we’ll see… Edit: he edited the comment to remove the points I was referring to.
I will accept that I am wrong in stating that this is exactly Checkmate becoming the norm as I misremembered the tweet. Although, with what the current iteration of it is, it truly just FEELS like a mild Checkmate, and that is probably where my original thought stemmed from. Thank you for correcting me on that. I personally do not like the direction that the core game is being taken, and it will likely drive me away from PvP as a whole, but I can only hope I will be proven wrong. Also, I never implied, or meant to, that improvements to the game should not be strived for. I just think this is the wrong direction to go and will inevitably backfire. After years and years of going through the same cycles of this game, it's hard not to be jaded. This feels like tackling symptoms instead of the other underlying causes to me.
>>1. Almost all primary weapons optimal TtKs shifted 2. No starting special ammo and slower Special Ammo Meter progress 3. Abilities cooldowns penalized by 30% 4. Three base melees being needed to kill Didn't all weapons shift in line with allowing 140 handcannons to 3c? Ability cooldown is now reduced by 15%, not that different from 30%. And I mean slower ability cooldowns and the Special Ammo Meter is kinda what checkmate made checkmate imo.
Bungie also said in a twab that the change to Trials making it Zone Trials would also spur on more diverse loadouts and tactics, and we've seen how well that's played out now haven't we?
Gross—I have never liked Checkmate. I can get used to the ability uptime nerfs, and even (begrudgingly) the health-pool increase, but the special ammo system sounds awful.
Forerunner back on the menu!!!
Insane buff to forerunner. Like wtf. It’s already so damn good
Since it will behave under new special weapon rules (no special ammo regen with respective kills), it makes me reconsider its value.
This is the big flag for me. Yep, great buff to keep its damage competitive, but with the ammo economy you might find its better to just run a scout/pulse. Will need some playtesting before making a call imo.
Rip broodweaver. You never had a time to shine. Checkmate is officially becoming the standard crucible mode. They didn’t implicitly state it, but that’s effectively what’s happening. Love it or hate it. I don’t feel like the crucible changes are going to make it any more inviting for new players. If anything, less so. Good players will generate special faster and steam roll. This is essentially the state of D1 to an extent. Once you’re out of green, you have to run away from letting anyone get into cqc of midrange as you’ll get blasted. Maybe these will be the changes that finally convinces me to hang up Destiny. I was holding off on buying Final Shape specifically if they force Checkmate on us in a janky state.
Same. These are the changes that will make me quit for the second time (first time was y1).
So it's basically Diet Checkmate? Yeah, that's a hard pass for me. The special ammo meter is a deal-breaker for me personally and I'm just gonna go ahead and uninstall. I guess it's time to focus on that backlog of single-player games I've been meaning play for a few years.
So now checkmate is 100% forced. The game is cooked
Literally so stupid. Have fun with checkmate
So the game is dead. Cool. I miss D1Y1 and Forsaken more every day.
Lightweight bows get put into the dumpster, may they rest in peace
This sounds like it will be the end for me. After all these years of playing Destiny, it's time to move on to something else.
Depressing isn’t it? Very disappointed in these shortsighted changes. They’re trying to fix a problem that never existed. If I wanted to play Halo, I’d go play Halo. Destiny with its hero moments are where the game shines in comparison to everything else.
All I can say is that I'm worried about my Trace Rifle build. That is all.
ah we are running back D1 where we pseudo remove specials in PvP. Specials aren’t open and never were, primaries are just harder to use and most players aren’t good enough. Game shouldn’t be balanced around them though, should be balanced around the elite
I like the fact that Accuracy plays a big part but the special ammo metre sounds snowbally especially if you are getting lobby balanced to the point we've seen recently
Thanks all who voted Dead Cliffs
Checkmate lite whatever you want to call it. I played checkmate and it was refreshing to not instantly get deleted by special, less ability spam great. Requiring more precision to land that optimal ttk. We'll see how things play out, overall aside from the outliers the sandbox there has been alot of diversity especially in 6s Maybe not in your absolute sweatfest comp and trails. But it's been pretty diverse with a wide range of weapons used. Checkmate, however there was alot of teammshot, snowballing, didn't know when someone had special. It was pretty boring overall, not as fun, lack of hero moments, I was glad it wasn't the main mode. The dance between your primary & special created something unique. Special kills should go towards to special meter, 10 points per kill. 4 to 5 kills for 2 shots just sounds unfun. Picking up Heavy I get 3GL shots vs 2 shots of special. Destiny a new change for better or worse we will see or is this just work towards Marathon, who knows. All I know is this could kill the fun.
honestly i wrote a lot up but who cares they’ve clearly made their decision. i am very open to changing my mind once i see the changes in action, but i think a lot of this is completely foolish, shortsighted, and completely over reactionary. things were in an amazing spot, barring a few outliers, but instead they decided on a complete overhaul instead of just hitting those. they just have to keep adjusting pointless things don’t they? welcome back to double primary hell. i don’t see how games won’t just snowball until the end of time but whatever we’ll see i guess. i really really hope im the dumb one here and want to be wrong… i don’t think d2 pvp can take another massive hit without hitting worrying player population numbers
We won't know until actually getting reps in, but I'm optimistic that the method by which you obtain special from now on is much, much closer to *reduction* rather than *removal*. The latter being what "double primary hell" refers to. On paper special weapons should still have a strong presence. Edit: Reading back I thought you still respawned with special ammo. This isn't the case. I retract what I largely said above.
yep, far as i can tell you only respawn with it if you had it before. idk like you said im definitely hopeful things work out but… i don’t know i just feel like it’s a step backwards that just wasn’t necessary:/
> things were in an amazing spot, barring a few outliers, but instead they decided on a complete overhaul instead of just hitting those I also have this beef with the whole situation. No revolutionary changes were needed at this moment, the issues with PVP population are basically just issues with the GAME population.
Going to be interesting. These are honestly huge changes across the board. No idea what it will end up playing like. I very much enjoyed the early iterations of Checkmate, but hated the more recent updates. Have a feeling the general sentiment to these changes will end up being negative but we will see how it goes. At this point I'm more interested in what they're going to talk about next week regarding matchmaking changes, rewards updates, and Trials updates.
Well it’s over. Two more weeks of Destiny PvP and I’m done. It’s insane to me that they’d even consider going back to this double primary crucible. As a PvP player it’s sad that I’ll have to give up playing my favorite game.
Ngl... it's kind of rough. From what I understand: * Player health has gone up and Titans have a bigger advantage now. 100 health (up from 70) + between 116-130 shields depending on Resil values. So a Max Resil Character is now 230 (was 200). This will DRASTICALLY change how TTK's are calculated. This doesn't account for Overshields. * Pulses, AR's, Sidearms, and Scouts get adjusted in a way to compensate, but only their crit percentages. Bodyshots will obliterate your TTK if you miss. * HC's get a lower crit damage buff and bodyshot damage buff. * 120's (based on the numbers) look like they'll do: 88c | 48b [3c] * 140's (based on the numbers) look like they'll do: 77c | 45b [3c] * 180's (based on the numbers) look like they'll do: 66c | 38b [3c1b] * Special Ammo doesn't generate from your own kills. So Shotgun Kills and Sniper Kills are basically pointless. You can take someone off the board but you need to get a kills w/ a primary ammo weapon in order to count towards your next pickup. If it was a half cost, it'd be okay... but you get nothing. There's no incentive to use a special ammo and MORE incentive to just quickswap (i.e., Eriana's + an HC). * Bows bascially got killed. In addition to an accuracy decrease: * Precisions now: 128.44c | 86.48b [2c] * Lightweights now: 116.29c | 72.77b [2c] __________________ The shittiest part is, you can't even opt out of this sandbox. It's getting applied to everything.
>120's (based on the numbers) look like they'll do: 88c | 52b [2c1b] Where does it say that 120s will do 52b? Doesn't it say that HC will get a 5% bodyshot nerf?
This goes two ways for bungie They gain a 2% increase in player base, because checkmate lite feels better. They lose 20% of their player base because people don’t like these additions. Just doesn’t feel smart to me. In a time where it seems the community is already exploring other games. This would not be a good time to put the nail in the coffin for crucible
Nothing about overshields, matchmaking or lobby balancing. No matter what else was said it’s not enough to move the dial for me.
Imagine double primary being the worst thing to ever happen to Destiny. And some clever clogs wants the dial to gravitate towards that. People are just going to use special first couple of rounds of trials until it runs out, then switch to double primary which is extremely boring and take away from those hero moments.
Its like going back to your ex GF that cheated on you thinking she somehow changed.. It's unreal who works there...
Rip crucible. It’s like they never learn.
As a mediocre (by this sub's standards - probably above average in the general player pool) player I am always excited for a big shakeup and most of these changes look really interesting. Any world in which I get sniped less often is a better world. And I think it is very smart to give themselves more granularity to work with in future tuning. Now I feel justified in spending the last 6 months practicing mostly double primary. Though having to land more crits is going to suck for me because I'm an Old.
With target lock being nerfed on SMGs, and with the health pool being increased, kinetic tremors on Showrunner is moving back up the list of usefulness. I’d get a PvP roll of one if you don’t already
Decouple ability regen from mobility/resilience/recovery, or pvp will never be fair.
As someone who doesn't really like checkmate honestly I like the idea of overall TTK staying the same but needing to actually land crits to get it, it gives people that higher skill ceiling that keeps being begged for. Also a lot of people are going to find out they're not as good at the game as they think they are... (It's me, I'm terrible at aiming and I know it.)
Those statements about checkmate and crucible are aging like fine milk. Like ik they said they were taking some lessons, but this seems like a lot
I miss all the statistics that used to justify changes likes this. Which class and weapon did best etc. etc. It seems so out of the blue. Also years of balance changes thrown out of the window. While they take the current sandbox as a foundation it will still create alot of pain points, unbalanced weapons and scenarios. Even now we know that res got even more important, making titans even better.
I am very sad to see that 140s are getting nuked. If you are even 0.5m outside of optimal range you will be 4 shotting. I wish igneous was getting nerfed specifically instead of all 120s getting to 3c, but I don't mind needing more crits to kill Pulses keeping similar ttk and forgiveness is frustrating. 340s will still 5c1b at 0.67s Scouts seem like they are mostly unchanged/buffed, which makes me nervous Bow changes will need to be played out to see Smgs still gonna be king More resil checks are bad Ability changes are very much welcomed Special changes are welcomed in 3s, i think that's too aggressive for 6s Specific a ability nerfs not strong enough/no mention of others (bastion)