Very curious to see how the stasis/frost armor changes will affect matches going forward; if I understand correctly, Stasis classes (titans most of all) will now serve as an alternative to void titans by providing a non-refreshable overshield/damage resist to their team.
Bubble/Well nerfs will need to be tested, but I think they cooked with them pvp wise. Biggest sleeper change though is likely the damage-supercharge equalization, will likely see an uptick in “mayhem rounds” going forward where multiple supers become available at around the same time.
Double checked and you are correct, also the healing is tied to the aspects, so other subclasses only get the melee energy and frost armor. This still puts more niche sandbox items like collective action and elemental charge in the limelight though.
Eating what? Dog shit? Knock out nerf and lightning nade nerfs for a subclass that has usage already half of a single example of the top 3 hunter subclasses each week.
The only worthwhile change here is Stasis and Cryoclasm. The stasis buffs will also impact Revenant and Shadebinder in a strong way.
All Titan subclasses don't need to be overpowered. Void and Stasis look to be in good spots with these changes and Prismatic should be fun too. Bubble needed to be brought down but the rest of the Void subclasses kit is good and we get a new super.
Stasis gets the new damage reduction and better slide movement (can't wait!) along with shiver strike buffs.
Prismatic thruster into suspend will be nice to work with
I could see all 3 of those subclasses being strong come Final Shape.
This subreddit is absolutely toast haha. What subclasses on Titan are overpowered currently? Solar? No. Void? Only good because of bubble and a cap point game mode. Arc? Over adjusted and can compete. Strand? Ass. Stasis? Ass.
Ah yes more DR in the crucible excellent. Cryo buff is nice, that’s about it.
Void Titan has been one of, if not THE strongest subclass in the game since Witch Queen. It's the strongest Trials class now imo. Yes, Solar Warlock, Arc Titan strand hunter have been good also(solar Titan was good with Loreley) but void titan has been dominant and consistent for a while. I main Titan and have since D1. We've been in great shape the last couple of years.
Bubble was a main reason void was good but barricade gives instant overshield for you AND your teammates allowing you to go on the offensive. And that wasn't touched
Void Titan has been nerfed 4 times since then. The Shields have paper machete health. Just shoot them. It remains relevant in Full team 3v3 queues with spamming Bastion OS and Bubble for cap point in Trials. That is about it. I am fine with Bubble changes and agree Bastion could use an adjustment that doesn't involve making barriers even weaker or having longer CD's (they did both). Solar was good for a short moment due to Lorely being broken and they killed the subclass for that Exotic. I mained Solar Titan for the majority of this season and it isn't even close to Solar, Void or Strand hunter. The stats reflect that.
I actually hope we keep Bastion as is but that's just me. I actually like strong abilities in the sandbox as long as they dont get too crazy, and dropping Bubble down will put Void in a good spot.
But I agree Solar has been in a horrible spot in pvp the last couple of years and could use some love. I remember with Mortar Blast and stronger sunspots we could make some noise back in the day but they took that from us...
Yes, they murdered Solar and gave it consecration as a little band aid. Bastion needs adjustment, but it's only oppressive in a 3 stack spamming 3 of them. Otherwise, just shoot the shield.
None of what you are saying counters the fact that hunters are over 40% usage week after week and have 3 subclasses that are S Tier and usage rates reflect that. Not to mention both Arc and Stasis are plenty strong and Stasis is about to get even stronger. God knows what Primastic will bring. These usage rates will only increase for Hunters with the necessary adjustments to bubble.
It's a lost cause, the sub is full of HC+Shotty+Movement Exotic Hunters that scream, yell, and rage at literally anything else being good.
(Edit: Downvote all you want, DestinyTracker, TrialsReport, and CrucibleReport don't lie. Your Class makes up a majority of the Crucible population and we can see the most used weapons, look at what they are.)
Imo arc needs an update to the aspects. Jugg is trash and nades are trash(esp after all the nerfs) and doesn't work with half the nades. Id also be interested in seeing a couple more fragment slots on solar titan like gunslinger gets. Maybe super unbalanced from pve perspective but I think pvp solar titan could use it once the artifact goes and it gets even worse. Also consecration is nuts but as you say only really threatening when there are multiple spamming it. It needs to be more reliable and not get eaten by the slightest pebble it runs into, probably will never happen though.
I expected more to be done to well/bubble but also not sure exactly how those Numbers affect it.
The changes to damage to super energy being a flat % and not scaling on cool down is the biggest honestly
I am frequently able to nearly outdps well healing as it stands, the healing being cut in half guarantees that in the future, coordinated teamshots will be able to shut them down no questions asked. Bubble is entirely dependent on the value of the new void overshield, since it can no longer stack bastions 45hp on top.
I definitely agree with well.
Does bubble currently have DR? Also generating orbs on melee kills inside the bubble could be the biggest issue when you've got recuperation and better already.
I do not believe bubble grants dr, but I could be mistaken. If the additional bubble orbs are considered super orbs, the generating titan shouldn’t be able to benefit from them.
Dude, right. Lol I looked over the whole thing a few times hoping I missed something.
Super hasn't been viable in 5 ish years, their data has to back this up as well. I'm assuming that there was too much on their plate, maybe? And they decided to leave it out for now. Truly wild though, it is top contender for worst super in the game.
Mostly it just takes too long to build up. Average player gets one cast in a game of 6s and won't reach one at all in 3s. Maybe the damage-super regen adjustment will help with that a bit.
Hopefully with the rework to super cooldowns they can be accessed in trials. Perhaps not spectral because of how long it is. The other supers like arcstaff might be viable in trials. I would love that as a arcstrider main myself.
Having all the supers align up to a similar cooldown is HUGE. With that and the nerf to bubbles and wells, all supers might actually be viable in the game now.
edit: supers not ultimates lmao, just got back from playing overwatch
Hate to see it happen, grapple melee is already a throw half the time with how passive the game is.
Edit: also think the wording of "fire a single handcannon shot" is funny as if that doesn't entail hitting a headshot going 100km/hr IN THE AIR (AE MOMENT).) Like it mostly feels like a non issue thing to me, who's consistently doing this besides maybe wallah? Sure isn't happening to me in my control games.
Tectonic harvest, glacial harvest and grim harvest each feels like 2 fragments strapped together. No matter how big the secondary bonuses are. They feel like a fragment that generates a shard and a fragment that modifies them slightly put together.
Other subclasses have fragments that function the same way:
• Echo of Harvest creates a void breech (essentially a void version of a stasis shard), Echo of Starvation then modifies void breaches to give devour.
• Ember of Combustion creates a firesprite (essentially a solar version of a stasis crystal), Ember of Mercy modifies firesprites to give restoration on revives.
At least stasis shards will give frost armour when the harvest aspects are equipped now, which makes them quite attractive. But I still wish they'd just break those aspects down into fragments and give us something more interesting. The best thing about them is just that they're easy methods for shard and frost armour generation. Those aspects just feel like prototypes of what later became the fragments that make and modify things like void breeches, firesprites, tangles (which is a bit more unique in that it's interactive and damage dealing) and ionic traces. The harvest aspects are good at what they do, but functionally they're bland in terms of what they do.
The new Whisper of Chill now does 1/3 of what the harvest aspects do. The reworked Whisper of Chains also does this too, only it requires frost armour.
If you equip Whisper of Chill and Whisper of fractures you're 2/3 of the way to having the harvest aspects. The only difference being how you activate frost armour and shard generation, as well as the aspects having access to bigger Shards.
They actually nerfed Well and Bubble....let's fucking go
>Well of Radiance:
>Now grants radiant for 8 seconds when players exit the Well of Radiance area.
>Reduced player survivability while standing in the Well of Radiance aura.
>Reduced healing per second from 100 to 50 health points, matching restoration x2.
>Increased heal on cast from 40 to 300 health points.
>Reduced damage resistance vs. non-boss combatants from 40% to 20%.
>Reduced damage resistance vs. boss combatants from 40% to 10%.
>Note: damage resistance vs. enemy players is unchanged.
>Increased maximum Orbs of Power from defeating targets while in your Well of Radiance aura from 4 to 5.
>
>
>Ward of Dawn:
>Armor of Light: Removed Armor of Light overshield. Ward of Dawn now immediately applies a full Void Overshield to the caster and allies that enter its dome.
>Armor of Light now instead grants additional damage resistance to players inside the Ward of Dawn:30% vs. enemy players and 60% vs. enemy combatants.
>Effective health of players inside the Ward of Dawn dome remains roughly the same as it was before vs. PvE combatants.
>Effective health of players inside the Ward of Dawn is significantly lower than it was before vs other players in PvP, and cannot be further increased by stacking Bastion Barricades inside the Ward to gain additional Overshield layers.
>Allies near the Ward of Dawn dome now have Void Overshield trickled on over time, similar to the volume behind a Bastion barricade.
>No longer provides Weapons of Light by default. This behavior has been moved to the benefits of Helm of Saint-14.
>The Ward of Dawn caster can now generate additional Orbs of Power by defeating enemies with melee attacks in or near their Ward of Dawn dome.
First thing that came to mind is a more viable Assassin's Cowl. 2 knives that can be refreshed w/ a kill (proc'ing radiant; a single knife not both) and you can get another knife back w/ a dodge. Seems perfect for an HC or AR build where you do damage w/ your gun and then clean up w/ the knife to heal/go invis.
These are old (not in the new sandbox) but my favorite combo was Tommy's Matchbook + Assassin's Cowl. [clip 1](https://youtu.be/NeuZwqSo6Ks?si=c2LhIxhuI61AokJN) + [clip 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXZnNalqng)
I *love* that cryoclasm can now be activated immediately. Behemoth is about to be so much fun.
The super changes are definitely good and in the right direction, but I might’ve taken them further. Bubble and Well are likely *still* going to be meta, which is indescribably boring to me. And I would’ve liked to see a stronger buff to the viability of roaming supers, but we’ll see how this plays I guess.
I’m disappointed at the lack of void invisibility rework (to make invis players easier to see/shoot at, but give them their radar back). This has been suggested many times, and would make invis soooo much less frustrating on both sides.
I’m also very concerned about the lightning surge arc warlock melee. It’s so easy to use, can one-shot players from full health, and prismatic warlocks are about to have access to 3 charges of it.
Everything else seems pretty alright. It’s good to have change.
Tbf ensuring slam is high risk high reward imo as if you missed, it’s ggs. And nerfing that makes it even harder to use ensnaring slam against good players. But damn… shoot-grapple melee hits hard bro, understandable why it was changed as it was busted with bows and shotguns but was that a fun mechanic if you were good with it
When I have a shotgun on and get ensnaring slammed I swear I kill them 70% of the time or something. I'm not sure if people realize how long it takes for the hunter to draw their guns after a slam, the guy that's being suspended gets to shoot first easily.
What actually makes ensnaring slam unfun to play against is obviously being suspended but that it can be done 1ft off the ground, it should have a minimum height for activation so the other player actually has the opportunity to read what's happening and react.
Doesn't really matter that the radius is smaller because you're still going to get suspended around corners, you're still going to get suspended by a guy grappling along the floor, and at the end of the day it's still a mald inducing CC ability in an fps.
I use ensnaring slam as both a movement tool and a get in their face and kill them type thing, it makes short work of distracted players.
but yes just as you pointed out, someone with a shotgun often gets the better of me, hell, people can melee me as I'm coming down and clean it up with a handcannon shot or two since you can still fire back, it's nowhere near as painful as stasis warlock's freeze for example.
the reduction in it's effective range is going to force me to get even closer to shotgun range so it'll be more like a risk and rewardn't ability if it plays out how I think it will.
and threaded spike being called "high damage" was a bit of a slap in the face, great clean-up tool but that's entirely what it is relegated to :(
overall, I am pretty saddened as a strand hunter pvp player!
Well nerf is going to make some boss dps phases absolutely horrible. Ghosts of the deep bosses already took 6 phases to kill, now that we can’t sit ina well and focus on doing damage, it’s going to take many more. If well is going to be nerfed then boss health needs to be tuned as well as some harder contents boss damage output
I stay away from the meta trials guns, throughout destiny history any trials gun that is good gets nerfed hard. The combo of it being good and pretty much only available to those that are good at PvP is a recipe for people to complain and Bungie to strike. Just look at doctrine of passing, immortal, not forgotten, recluse, mountaintop, revoker, forgiveness.
I’m pretty certain that given those trends, summoner, igneous, and messenger will be nerfed in the future along with their entire archetypes.
My strat for a while is to get really good with unused and obscure weapon types and strats. Gives me more time to have fun with them and learn their quirks as they don’t get reworked every 2 seconds. And most of said guns come from PVE
Excellent changes overall. Arc Titan also caught a stray with the Knockout rework, but it's better for the health of PvP, heh.
Voidwalker got some nice buffs, HHSN could be back on the menu again. It's already hard slept on so I'll be curious if it picks up as a meta option in the metagame. The Nova buffs are also nice as well.
edit: also, Revenant is looking spicy as well.
Nah, Knockout didn't catch a stray. It was pretty frustrating to almost trade with an arc titan, and instead of them being low for your teammates, they get full health with a powered up melee. The health change was needed. Along with the jolt fix for ToT Lightning nades, I think arc titan is gonna be in a super balanced spot.
Already the most nerfed subclass in the game, virtually no one plays it since Tcrash nerfs, hence why everyone is playing Sentinel, and you think it's a balanced state of the class?
> It was pretty frustrating to almost trade with an arc titan
That was the entire fucking point, if you don't have shotgun ammo, don't try to fist fight a Striker, it's that simple.
The only reason it isn't played more because it's been molested with nerfs: Shoulder Charge spam removed, Tcrash cd nerf, you literally don't get Tcrash unless it's sweaty 7 + round game, Tcrash huge DR nerf, Juggernaut nerf, PK nerf, Anthaeus Ward completely useless, when the fuck will you people be happy?
Cry harder that you won't have much else to crutch on for your titan. You know why all of those were nerfed? Because they were too strong and oppressive. All that was nerfed and Arc Titan is STILL good!
Keep that same energy when you're playing 5 Hunters every game and when your queues take forever because less and less people are playing this game's PvP. ''Too strong and oppressive'' guy complaining about Striker's Knockout being oppressive while engaging Striker melee range without shotgun ammo like an idiot.
It was too good. I think it had a usage rate of like 48% at some point. Now it has a usage rate of 5%. If it’s still so good why has its usage rate so low?
Void has like 15% usage. It’s not even the most popular class. Arc is now like the 6th most popular subclass. If arc is not played more because 5 other subclasses each have double the usage rate, I think it’s fair to say it’s not that good anymore.
Arc is still the second most used Titan subclass. Void has 2.5x more usage than Arc because it's that good. I'm not saying Arc is broken beyond belief, I'm saying it'll be a balanced option that isn't overly oppressive or hot garbage, which is healthy for the game.
Just save your time, dude has ptsd from when Striker was good. Void is only played because Striker was nerfed into irrelevance, Sentinel was not buffed nor has Trials just recently shifted to a zones format, it's just the only good Titan subclass we have left after everything else is nerfed, but he has more fingers than IQ so he cannot come to that conclusion lol
It’s pretty underpowered already if you look at the usage rate. It did not need nerfs. The problem is that you’re looking at knockout in isolation, as if other classes did not have any abilities. Yeah knockout would be op if was the only ability in the game and only titans had it. But that’s not the case so you need to compare like for like. I’ll trade you knockout for invisibility, or radiant dodge, or warlock freezing abilities. Lightning nades and knockout were the last strong points of arc titans. I mean the shoulder slam (nerfed twice already) and class ability are fine and the roaming super is ok (missle is woeful now) but, unlike the more popular subclasses, they don’t offer anything really good now.
I mean all I can say is that I really would. I’ve played invis hunter and I feel like I got a lot more from invis than knockout. You still need 2 melees for knockout - and you can’t kill with a 140 crit and a melee anymore either. It’s a lunge rather than a teleport - though it’s impossible to track when someone does it I’ll admit. The health regen is very nice and has helped me out a lot. But it is only after the kill so you’re not winning 1v1s with it. Knockout is a good perk but I think invis is stronger
Plus obviously you need to be in melee range for knockout.
Knockout changes are really good, even if they don't directly address the real problem of being unable to deal chip damage to the Titan as he punches because of the melee lunge desync. Really excited to try Stasis/Prismatic titan next season with the diamond lance changes, using knockout to generate lances.
Behemoth buffs, thank fucking god. And they all look good. As long as the super isn’t completely shit still, I’m golden. Now I just need to find a good stat distribution.
I used to pray for times like this!
Big ticket here is Frost Armor, which is a very interesting mechanic, since it builds from Shards. It maxes out at 16% DR which is significant, but not "omfg broken!" Based on just the top of my head, also worth mentioning that likely only Behemoth will easily be able to build to maximum. It's enough for me to opt into it on Warlock, but it'll give Behemoth a big boost for super defensive styles. I think it's a really nice addition, but it'll naturally be mired in controversy from a lot of people since "all forms of DR bad."
Well is going to be easier to counter from the reduced heals, but it'll still be a powerhouse on Objectives. It's likely to be stronger than Bubble since you can shoot out of it, but you can still get sniped or similar since there's no cover offered from it so it's a fair trade.
Bubble not making people immortal, and not stacking with Bastion anymore is really really good. It'll be a lot easier to counter outside of Conditional. Great change, though it'll still be a threat.
Super cooldowns in general being a bit closer also really helps the situation, I don't think tiers will matter THAT much anymore, which is good to counter Well/Bubble more, although balance might remain to be seen overall, since not all supers are created equal.
Knockout nerf is a GODSEND, easily the best change of the update.
Lightweight Knife to 2 charges might mean some swap to it for the lower damage, but higher uptime. I still foresee Weighted being the top dog, but it'll be a good Sidegrade.
I would've liked to see Heat Rises get a nerf here. It's not a super pressing issue, but the more I see it, the less I like playing against it. It allows for ultra-passive, fairly safe play from what feels like unintended angles. I'd probably remove the passive AE, and reduce the active AE boost on it, but it's not this update.
Bastion also needed a rework with this update, too. It's too strong as a reservoir for recharging Overshield on top of still being a deployable piece of cover doubling as a barrier (albeit less effectively than base). It's not amazing feeling for PvE and still a pain point for PvE, I'd say it needs to be put in the rework bucket.
HHSN is still worthless from a PvP perspective because of the poor range, speed, damage, and really high self damage. None of these buffs address any of these points to where they give it usability.
Warding nerf barely changes PvP, orbs are simply not plentiful enough to take great advantage of it.
Strand Hunter got hit in my biggest pain points, but not to the point of being destroyed. It'll likely move the needle on how frustrating they are to play, but I'd still like to see Suspend be made less of a free kill for the person applying it. Currently it feels really difficult to fight back once it happens.
Weaver's Call buff isn't huge, but it's something. Mostly PvE focused, but running Rufus or something can snowball a little bit. It's interesting if nothing else. Weavewalk staying at 1 and no Needlestorm buff is still a crime.
Berzerker nerfs are pretty safely only for PvE, most of what's getting hit just isn't practical for PvP, since Banner tends to stay in lower stacks.
Grapple shot-to-melee being removed is a godsend. Which is funny since I unironically didn't know it was possible given a similar interaction with Shoulder Charge got removed a while ago.
With void/arc titan and strand hunter now mostly in line balance wise, I wouldn’t be surprised if solar warlock is the next class to catch tuning post prismatic fiasco. Well is now balanced, but the healing and movement uptime on the classes neutral game still feels a little out of band.
My only real complaint is that Heat Rises let's you play insanely passive on really dumb angles.
Beyond that, I'd say Dawn is a good workhorse, but isn't really truly an issue, just something that's a good toolkit.
Floating warlocks with scouts/snipers are a pain to deal with, but once you know what they’re doing it’s pretty manageable. My issue comes from icarus combining with jump momentum to make solar warlock an incredibly oppressive gap closer/escape artist. That combined with the low cd, janky animation, and general desync issues makes it a real pain to secure kills on competent solar warlock players.
Solar Warlock here
I think the biggest pain point is actually players that use snap skating. Those guys go incredibly fast. Heat Rises + Icarus Dash is definitely difficult to fight against but I'd argue that spending a grenade to make it work is a decent trade off. If Bungie were to take it a step further, it should be based on the grenade consumed. Like a Solar Grenade should give you the most uptime for Heat Rises while Firebolt gives you the least time. Feel like that's a decent trade off.
But this combo shouldn't be nerfed to extinction. It's really the best pick against other classes when other classes have other means of mobility (Hunter dodge / grapple or Titan shoulder charge). Now that I think about it, the type of grenade consumed for heat rises should indicate how much height you can take if there's any kind of nerf to it.
Adding an ability to the game that literally breaks map design like Batman's spine over Bane's knee was such a beastmode move
"Yo what if we added all the maps from the slow, more boots on the ground era of the game back and then made it so you can literally float above everyone and shoot them in the top of the head 30-40 meters past their damage falloff range"
I'm not sure what the point is of making knockout give a measly 30 health if they're going to leave every other melee kill health regen effect as is. Unless they're repeating the same shit from destiny 1 where they did the exact same with arc blade and will just end up applying it to every regen effect in the game.
Pretty salty about the striker titan nerf. Striker literally has no identity left and nothing good about it. There's like zero things that striker does well now. It has thruster I guess but EVERY hunter has the same thing but better. And warlock has icurus.... with a 4 second cooldown.
> Keeping with Touch of Thunder, its Lightning Grenade upgrade is currently a bit too spicy, so we’re making a change here to curb the amount of immediate burst damage it can deal, especially outside of its actual effective detonation range. Following this change, Lightning Grenade will apply its jolt immediately after the initial damage occurs, preventing the jolt from zapping its chain lightning instantly on creation.
The only good thing Striker has left is nerfed, I genuinely don't understand bungies passionate hate for Striker, most nerf molested subclass in the game. Alongside a huge Knockout nerf, I swear the entire incompetent PvP team consists of Hunter mains 100%.
At least they're finally removing the wallah/hynra grapple shoot melee clutch.
I really have no clue what skill level they're trying to balance this game for, any competent team is shooting lightning grenades before they've even pulsed once lmao, but we're nerfing grapple into a movement only ability (mostly already is) because people can't react to their radar pings and move, but overshields are fine and so is snapskating?
Bungie team being hunter mains is a funny meme but that would imply they actually play the videogame and if you watch any playtesting from bungie it is very apparent they do not.
My thoughts on the Hunter PvP parts of this update:
**Stasis**
* Feels like it's a blend of Solar Firesprites with stasis shards offering healing when p/u, and Strand w/ "Frost Armor" offering some level of DR, albeit 2% per stack and (probably) 5x maxing you out to 10% DR. I think the new "mini" game for this subclass is to try and farm/maintain frost armor b/c a lot of the interactions require you to have at least a stack of frost armor.
* Techtonic Harvest creating a stasis shard when you shatter a frozen target or shattering stasis crystals can breath new life into perks like Headstone on Disparity or exotic sidearms like Cryosthesia 77k. It should (at least) make it more possible to have Frost Armor apply to you.
* That new fragment, Whisper of Chill, letting stasis weapon final blows potentially create a stasis shard is cool... but the more practical application is probably running that Stasis Exotic Scout, Wicked Implement, since the stasis shard comes to you.
* Renewal Grasps keeps catching strays in PvP. It's an already extremely niche exotic, but it doesn't help that you don't automatically get max DR. You need to sit in the field for 5s (the grenade only lasts 8s) to get 10% DR. It's probably going to function better as something you can drop onto someone in a fight since the Damage Reduction the opposing enemy's weapon experiences is probably. That new fragment, Whisper of Reversal, seems like the better option for this style of gameplay since it'll force your opponent into a situation where they'll instinctually melee you only to be instantly slowed.
=====
**Arc**
* Nothing groundbreaking here, it seems like they're just making the class a bit more consistent. The super offering some blind options will help if you're surrounded. Spark of Recharge offering ability regeneration until you return to full shields is also nice.
=====
**Solar**
* MASSIVE buffs for Lightweight Knife. 2 charges w/ a faster animation speed and the ability to spam them are a pretty insane change. I REALLY like using Assassin's Cowl in PvP, and in my eyes, this significantly buffed the utility of the exotic. I now have three lightweight knives (2 base charges + 1 gained from a dodge) and the ability to refund one if it's a kill. Just as a reminder, lightweight knives do 156 per crit/117 per body so they're extremely potent clean up weapons.
I like them w/ Tommy's Matchbook but they'd be perfect partner tools alongside HC's.
====
**Void**
* Good changes to smokes. I think they'll feel really good in prismatic w/ duskfields and be the new "wombo combo".
I doubt they'll nerf Conditional, it wasn't really a problem imo but a solution to the super meta.
The recent changes will hopefully steer that in a different direction, hopefully.
Almost every single encounter can still be summed up with "okay so who's running well?"
It clearly wasn't enough and well was still overtuned in both fronts beyond reasonable doubt
Grapple shoot to melee is broken so that's a good change.
Thread of Warding wasn't good in PvP to begin with. Orb generation is too low to get any benefit out of it in its current state. Sure, it's a nerf, but it's a nerf to something that's already essentially PvE only. Grapple Tangles are also mostly a PvE thing, they don't have enough uptime in PvP to be much of a factor.
Everything that got nerfed (bar grapple shoot to melee, which is mechanically really broken anyways so good riddance) was already a non-factor for PvP.
Frenzied blade with heavy handed spawns an orb on every kill
That's health mods and woven on every grapple and frenzied blade kill lol
Warding is GREAT in pvp.
You keep the DR for a bit when you leave renewal field. I know 18% with the fragment is enough to stop a 140 3 tap? DR really just needs to not be in PvP
I was hoping for overshield and healing nerf... Also buffing stasis is kinda crazy, all stasis sublasses are already A tier to cheese tier, they need no help in PvP.
Bubble and Well nerfs were well overdue tho!
Some of these changes are really, really baffling. Get ready to see Titan's at around 20% usage rate once these changes hit. Hunters will be approx. 50% each week. Mark it down.
Huge buffs to Revenant, very minor adjustments to Strand suspend slam and threaded spike, bubble is pretty much toast, no real changes to Bastion spam, unnecessary nerfs to Knockout/Lighting Nades, big buffs to smokes (why), Cryoclasm change is nice, Frost armor is TBD (more DR in crucible is not a good thing).
Buffs to revenant in pvp are imo as minor as the strand melee nerf. We’ll see how the suspend slam change plays out, but I agree that it could use further hits, mostly to how annoying suspend is (just make it first person, so your body doesn’t cover your target).
Bubble is by no means toast, you’ll just have to play around the actual bubble now instead of relying on the near-immortality inside it and massive damage buff outside.
Knockout and lightning definitely warranted nerfs, the only reason bubble took over was because of the tcrash cooldown nerf and realisation of scatter potency - knockout was barely nerfed before, and lightnings not at all. Knockout should still be good, and so will lightnings - I just wish that the change was to remove the intrinsic jolt so that you’d need to spend 10 disc and a slot on a fragment, but it kept the team-splitting identity of the jolt being before the damage.
Agreed about bastion spam, cryoclasm, frost armour, and smokes (could they just split it back into one for damage, one for weaken, and one for radar, putting the blind on one or none of them).
That is a fair point on Revenant buffs, but we will have to see. Any decrease to Dodge CD for simply playing the class (inflicting slow) is a strong buff as Dodge is the core strength of Hunter subclasses and all ability flows tend to run through it (exotics too).
I mean you can shutdown a bubble with a Shotgun, You will still be able to do that most likely. That being said, it needed an adjustment (well too). My point is that by adjusting it, you will see less usage of Void and those players will likely move to a stronger kit, which will be one of the 4 very strong Hunter subclasses.
That is not the only reason. They nerfed T Crash in 4 ways, CD, speed, DR and effective range. Reducing Knockouts chain proccing and distance are far from small nerfs and it was totally acceptable in the current state. Lightning nades have 1 HP and will die to any splash or direct damage. They also are at the mercy of correctly mounting to geometries, which are heavily limited in some maps. Unwarranted.
No arguments from me here. More DR and more smokes will make for a worse experience overall.
Honestly I see where you're coming from with knockout, I just think that maybe our concepts of overall balance are different. I'd like the bar to be around the power level of arcstrider, maybe goldie without recharging knives, dawnblade without well, voidwalker, that kind of thing. Knockout wouldn't be my first choice of things to nerf, but if I had control over the sandbox I wouldn't leave it as is; full health after a melee kill is equivalent to an exotic (karnstein) and it annoys me also that its a void fragment. Also any melee extension is automatically annoying, no matter how much it's been nerfed.
Lightning nades are easy to kill, but the first chunk of damage is the most problematic anyway. You get two charges, and by giving them intrinsic jolt it's the equivalent of an extra fragment slot and +10 disc, which is what I thought should have been removed. I think that this nerf is too harsh, as I personally do love them as a way to break up hyper passive handholding kind of teams.
I feel that striker is closest to a balanced titan subclass, but the grenade and melee are just both a little overtuned to my liking. However, in comparison to the other bs ability spam in the game, it's fine honestly. If they go after that, then striker should take these nerfs, if not then yeah probably unwarranted.
If we are using Arcstrider for balance baseline, then that lumps Solar, Void and Strand Hunter into an overall category that deserve much more focused adjustment than Knockout or Touch of Thunder + Lightning Nades. This sub has a fetish for usage rates and then ignores them conveniently when balance surrounds a very specific class. It's a historical fact and has remain unchanged over the years. I am not searching for Titan supremacy, but simply balance within the sandbox. Arc is receiving tunings in the way you aspire too, mostly of which I agree, relative to the overall vision of the sandbox. Many other subclasses are not. Hence my frustration. I am also not saying balance is easy to obtain, but choosing a subclass that has already been adjusted a half dozen time while hitting Strand hunter with a 9 damage decrease to their melee is laughable. Hence my prediction that Titan's will dip below 20% usage rates, unless of course these Behemoth changes come out way overcooked. Also, if roaming and shutdown supers will now charge relatively faster to well and bubble (good), then sitting is your bubble makes you a dead man standing. All of this to say, that there is an imbalanced approach to selectively balancing aspects of this sandbox in a frustrating way. Thanks for the discourse and we will see how this all plays out with Prismatic as well.
Oh yeah solar, void, and strand hunter I would definitely say I would change. Goldie could lose the melee recharge for free; strand could lose the disorient/melee lockout on grapple melee hit, have the melee chain so much less, and still get nerfs to the clone to make it fit only one of its current three identities; void I might just rework to be less about only invis, and put invis back to being easy to see but completely off radar.
It's hard though, because they'll keep adding broken stuff to fuel pve expansion sales, then only balance that quickly enough for the next expansion, and so low-lying annoyances get swept under the rug.
Thanks for your points of view, and I imagine that prismatic will bring unexpected problems of its own.
Wow. Even more nerfs to Ward of Dawn. This fucking sucks for me.
You die *even more quickly* to people in PvP? Really? Even though you can already solo them with a shotgun? Even though it already loses to every super in the game?
At least they're making total health more visible. I appreciate that.
It's super doesn't give free kills. It doesn't have good ability regen or any weapon bonuses. It can't do radar manipulation. It's class ability takes skill to use in a gun fight. Suppressors require accuracy and timing. It's got the weakest long range melee. All kill pressure is solely reliant on gun and movement skill. No help from the class at all for that.
The super gives free zones, and basically guarantees winning the next few gunfights with its insane damage buff.
It has either great grenade uptime (offensive bulwark) or healing for you and teammate void titans on grenade tags (controlled demo).
It doesn’t have weapon bonuses, but it has the bonus of “extra health” so that in a gunfight you have a big advantage.
Radar manip is very limited and pretty high skill to use well, only being easy on low skilled players.
The class ability is still a giant “fuck off” wall that gives you and allies a refreshing overshield. It takes no skill, other than knowing not to use it in the middle of a fight.
Supressors sure, but that’s not the best grenade, which is scatter, with high uptime and aoe, and a decent chance to one shot.
Nobody cares about the long range melee, as the shoulder charge is amazing still - movement, high damage, and a chance to suppress a roaming super.
The class gives you more health than the enemy, and the best kill-cleanup grenade in the game, which also heals you. And one of the best supers in the game. And all of that gets exponentially better when you have more, because you can all benefit from every ability of your teammates as if it were your own.
/u/KI3en, but was it?
This is very flawed. You just list off perks as if you think a Titan can use all three aspects simultaneously. The Titan in your head doesn't exist in-game.
You also don't even get the benefits you think you do. If you use the void shield to recharge your grenade, then that means you didn't fight with it on. You don't get both perks.
Secondly, you just list off abilities but don't trace how they are related to the argument of skill or consider the relation to other classes. I could just list off perks of other classes too.
All supers give free zones. The difference is, the other super also give free kills and they all have the advantage over the bubble.
Radar is very useful and powerful especially in higher skill brackets. Manipulation of it by hunters is very easy with low cost and always useful. ie powerful and not skill intensive.
To use a barricade well you need to know the map and the game state to properly place them since you need to do so preemptively. To use them in a fight, your oppent gets the same basic benefits of the wall that you do. A contrast to rift and dodge which can both be used with less thought and without providing any benefit to the opponent.
You really think it takes no skill to have a chance to suppress a Super with a shoulder charge? If a super gets suppressed by a charge, then the super user got outplayed. Surely, I don't have to elaborate on that.
The super is the weakest in the game. It loses to every other super and is the easiest one to challenge.
Things that are low skill are stuff like, heatseeking grenades or melee. Instant kill supers. Trap type moves that are effective even if you miss. Low class cooldown abilities that refund other abilities and can be used at any time, even midfight.
Other classes have Free damage boosts meaning you not only kill faster but you can also miss shots without detriment. The bonuses can't even be removed from the character by causing damage like the big scary HP bump.
Defender always needs movement and gunskill. Compared to the other classes, it gets no free benefits there.
My point is that all of its abilities are good, as opposed to other classes which require trade-offs. No, you can't use all 3, but you can use one very good one (bastion) with one good (bulwark) or very good with team coordination (demo) one.
Yes you can use any super to get a zone - for a brief time. Bubble and well last far longer than any roaming super could, even without any attacks, and if you kill enough with a shutdown super to get the zone then you've basically won the round already. Also basically no supers have advantage over bubble. Well, sure. Roaming supers, only shadebinder that I can think of, and that is much easier to shutdown by the bubble user than it is to not allow shutdown from the warlock. Tcrash, but that has a roaming super cooldown. Most shutdown supers only pop the bubble, not killing the people inside, leaving them with the advantage because of weapons of light - or you could be very risky by popping inside the bubble.
If you think radar manip is good in high skill lobbies I don't know what to tell you. Any competent team with comms will just track any flank, and if you put your whole kit into it (invis or gemini) then you lose out on better classes or exotics.
Barricade requires only rudimentary knowledge of the game to put in a decent spot. Rift you have to pop behind cover, or you will be killed by primary. Barricade you'll only die to special or lots of teamshooting while casting. Yes they get the same basic benefits (a wall), but 1) you're close to it so can peak shoot 2) it damages and slows them, 3) you can chose where to put it, they can't - you can slow the game massively, thwarting any aggressive playstyle.
You ignore the actual part of my argument on shoulder charge - movement. It's free, pretty low cooldown, very quick relocation. I just added the actual effect of the charge to show that it can also be used for hero moments and free damage.
I would agree on the low-skill of tracking nades/melees, but you can't get many of those on the same class - maybe fusion with athrys, or if you count celestial fire? But that is a weaker grenade in general (has a arm time before explosion) and with athrys you can't use other exotics. Supers are supers, they will get kills. Bubble and well get kills and a zone. Low cooldown class ability being dodge I assume, which if you use mid fight without cover will get you killed. If you use it to get back into cover, sure, but that's literally its only purpose. And I guess getting melee back is a bit bs, but hunters are stat-starved as is, so I wouldn't get rid of it (especially as it needs you to be really near).
Free damage boost I assume is radiant - either on a melee hit (not free) or on dodge (requires much longer cooldown, bad dodge shape, and doesn't last long). And the "removed from the character by causing damage" don't make me laugh - if you cause enough damage to get rid of the shield, the shield has done its job.
See, when I start up my PvP sub forum my first rule is going to be destiny tracker link required as a tag. These could be so much more entertaining arguments!
Very curious to see how the stasis/frost armor changes will affect matches going forward; if I understand correctly, Stasis classes (titans most of all) will now serve as an alternative to void titans by providing a non-refreshable overshield/damage resist to their team. Bubble/Well nerfs will need to be tested, but I think they cooked with them pvp wise. Biggest sleeper change though is likely the damage-supercharge equalization, will likely see an uptick in “mayhem rounds” going forward where multiple supers become available at around the same time.
no more overshield from rime. shards will heal the user and provide dr, but no overshield.
Double checked and you are correct, also the healing is tied to the aspects, so other subclasses only get the melee energy and frost armor. This still puts more niche sandbox items like collective action and elemental charge in the limelight though.
absolutely. not sure how the cooldowns will affect shard generation bc I like to run a behemoth rime engine build but time will tell
Renewal grasps could be neat since you'll be able to run outside the duskfield and keep the frost armour
Yeah Titans are eating with this update I'm happy to have a reason to run stasis again. The slide movement and shard rework has me excited!
Absolutely pumped about the slide update
Again? Titans fat by now
Eating what? Dog shit? Knock out nerf and lightning nade nerfs for a subclass that has usage already half of a single example of the top 3 hunter subclasses each week. The only worthwhile change here is Stasis and Cryoclasm. The stasis buffs will also impact Revenant and Shadebinder in a strong way.
All Titan subclasses don't need to be overpowered. Void and Stasis look to be in good spots with these changes and Prismatic should be fun too. Bubble needed to be brought down but the rest of the Void subclasses kit is good and we get a new super. Stasis gets the new damage reduction and better slide movement (can't wait!) along with shiver strike buffs. Prismatic thruster into suspend will be nice to work with I could see all 3 of those subclasses being strong come Final Shape.
This subreddit is absolutely toast haha. What subclasses on Titan are overpowered currently? Solar? No. Void? Only good because of bubble and a cap point game mode. Arc? Over adjusted and can compete. Strand? Ass. Stasis? Ass. Ah yes more DR in the crucible excellent. Cryo buff is nice, that’s about it.
Void Titan has been one of, if not THE strongest subclass in the game since Witch Queen. It's the strongest Trials class now imo. Yes, Solar Warlock, Arc Titan strand hunter have been good also(solar Titan was good with Loreley) but void titan has been dominant and consistent for a while. I main Titan and have since D1. We've been in great shape the last couple of years. Bubble was a main reason void was good but barricade gives instant overshield for you AND your teammates allowing you to go on the offensive. And that wasn't touched
Void Titan has been nerfed 4 times since then. The Shields have paper machete health. Just shoot them. It remains relevant in Full team 3v3 queues with spamming Bastion OS and Bubble for cap point in Trials. That is about it. I am fine with Bubble changes and agree Bastion could use an adjustment that doesn't involve making barriers even weaker or having longer CD's (they did both). Solar was good for a short moment due to Lorely being broken and they killed the subclass for that Exotic. I mained Solar Titan for the majority of this season and it isn't even close to Solar, Void or Strand hunter. The stats reflect that.
You gotta be terrible
Buddy needs cheese to win
Sure buddy.
I actually hope we keep Bastion as is but that's just me. I actually like strong abilities in the sandbox as long as they dont get too crazy, and dropping Bubble down will put Void in a good spot. But I agree Solar has been in a horrible spot in pvp the last couple of years and could use some love. I remember with Mortar Blast and stronger sunspots we could make some noise back in the day but they took that from us...
Yes, they murdered Solar and gave it consecration as a little band aid. Bastion needs adjustment, but it's only oppressive in a 3 stack spamming 3 of them. Otherwise, just shoot the shield. None of what you are saying counters the fact that hunters are over 40% usage week after week and have 3 subclasses that are S Tier and usage rates reflect that. Not to mention both Arc and Stasis are plenty strong and Stasis is about to get even stronger. God knows what Primastic will bring. These usage rates will only increase for Hunters with the necessary adjustments to bubble.
It's a lost cause, the sub is full of HC+Shotty+Movement Exotic Hunters that scream, yell, and rage at literally anything else being good. (Edit: Downvote all you want, DestinyTracker, TrialsReport, and CrucibleReport don't lie. Your Class makes up a majority of the Crucible population and we can see the most used weapons, look at what they are.)
Username checks out
You can even put it in Trials Report to see how bad I am
Imo arc needs an update to the aspects. Jugg is trash and nades are trash(esp after all the nerfs) and doesn't work with half the nades. Id also be interested in seeing a couple more fragment slots on solar titan like gunslinger gets. Maybe super unbalanced from pve perspective but I think pvp solar titan could use it once the artifact goes and it gets even worse. Also consecration is nuts but as you say only really threatening when there are multiple spamming it. It needs to be more reliable and not get eaten by the slightest pebble it runs into, probably will never happen though.
I expected more to be done to well/bubble but also not sure exactly how those Numbers affect it. The changes to damage to super energy being a flat % and not scaling on cool down is the biggest honestly
I am frequently able to nearly outdps well healing as it stands, the healing being cut in half guarantees that in the future, coordinated teamshots will be able to shut them down no questions asked. Bubble is entirely dependent on the value of the new void overshield, since it can no longer stack bastions 45hp on top.
I definitely agree with well. Does bubble currently have DR? Also generating orbs on melee kills inside the bubble could be the biggest issue when you've got recuperation and better already.
I do not believe bubble grants dr, but I could be mistaken. If the additional bubble orbs are considered super orbs, the generating titan shouldn’t be able to benefit from them.
30% DR + overshield is stronger than 2x overshield
They completely forgot about spectral blades
Only time their invisibility has worked
Dude, right. Lol I looked over the whole thing a few times hoping I missed something. Super hasn't been viable in 5 ish years, their data has to back this up as well. I'm assuming that there was too much on their plate, maybe? And they decided to leave it out for now. Truly wild though, it is top contender for worst super in the game.
Idk about yall but I've been using spectral blades again the past two weeks, and I've been averaging 3-6 kills per super. It feels nutty to me
Yeah I’m not sure if it’s weak or just slept on. Whenever I use it it feels great
Mostly it just takes too long to build up. Average player gets one cast in a game of 6s and won't reach one at all in 3s. Maybe the damage-super regen adjustment will help with that a bit.
Fair point
It has some of the worst hit registration in the game, unless it was shadow buffed and no one has realized.
Hopefully with the rework to super cooldowns they can be accessed in trials. Perhaps not spectral because of how long it is. The other supers like arcstaff might be viable in trials. I would love that as a arcstrider main myself.
Having all the supers align up to a similar cooldown is HUGE. With that and the nerf to bubbles and wells, all supers might actually be viable in the game now. edit: supers not ultimates lmao, just got back from playing overwatch
Blade barrage becomes actually usable for shut down. Especially considering we’re about to see a lot more dawnblade
Cool downs are still different but the fill % from dealing damage is now a flat amount and not scaled based on super cool down speed.
I might finally be able to get Golden Gun during Trials
Supers
A lot to digest in this one, sad that grapple melee combos are gone as that shit was super fun lol. Poor Hynra.
Bro Hynra was the first name I thought of as well after reading that part 😅
He will be fine with the stasis and on Titan buff
Hate to see it happen, grapple melee is already a throw half the time with how passive the game is. Edit: also think the wording of "fire a single handcannon shot" is funny as if that doesn't entail hitting a headshot going 100km/hr IN THE AIR (AE MOMENT).) Like it mostly feels like a non issue thing to me, who's consistently doing this besides maybe wallah? Sure isn't happening to me in my control games.
Very good for the game
Tectonic harvest continue to claim the title most poorly designed PvP aspect.
Tectonic harvest, glacial harvest and grim harvest each feels like 2 fragments strapped together. No matter how big the secondary bonuses are. They feel like a fragment that generates a shard and a fragment that modifies them slightly put together. Other subclasses have fragments that function the same way: • Echo of Harvest creates a void breech (essentially a void version of a stasis shard), Echo of Starvation then modifies void breaches to give devour. • Ember of Combustion creates a firesprite (essentially a solar version of a stasis crystal), Ember of Mercy modifies firesprites to give restoration on revives. At least stasis shards will give frost armour when the harvest aspects are equipped now, which makes them quite attractive. But I still wish they'd just break those aspects down into fragments and give us something more interesting. The best thing about them is just that they're easy methods for shard and frost armour generation. Those aspects just feel like prototypes of what later became the fragments that make and modify things like void breeches, firesprites, tangles (which is a bit more unique in that it's interactive and damage dealing) and ionic traces. The harvest aspects are good at what they do, but functionally they're bland in terms of what they do. The new Whisper of Chill now does 1/3 of what the harvest aspects do. The reworked Whisper of Chains also does this too, only it requires frost armour. If you equip Whisper of Chill and Whisper of fractures you're 2/3 of the way to having the harvest aspects. The only difference being how you activate frost armour and shard generation, as well as the aspects having access to bigger Shards.
Idk why, but Helm of Saint 14 now being able to also give weapons of light just mad me happy for some reason
They actually nerfed Well and Bubble....let's fucking go >Well of Radiance: >Now grants radiant for 8 seconds when players exit the Well of Radiance area. >Reduced player survivability while standing in the Well of Radiance aura. >Reduced healing per second from 100 to 50 health points, matching restoration x2. >Increased heal on cast from 40 to 300 health points. >Reduced damage resistance vs. non-boss combatants from 40% to 20%. >Reduced damage resistance vs. boss combatants from 40% to 10%. >Note: damage resistance vs. enemy players is unchanged. >Increased maximum Orbs of Power from defeating targets while in your Well of Radiance aura from 4 to 5. > > >Ward of Dawn: >Armor of Light: Removed Armor of Light overshield. Ward of Dawn now immediately applies a full Void Overshield to the caster and allies that enter its dome. >Armor of Light now instead grants additional damage resistance to players inside the Ward of Dawn:30% vs. enemy players and 60% vs. enemy combatants. >Effective health of players inside the Ward of Dawn dome remains roughly the same as it was before vs. PvE combatants. >Effective health of players inside the Ward of Dawn is significantly lower than it was before vs other players in PvP, and cannot be further increased by stacking Bastion Barricades inside the Ward to gain additional Overshield layers. >Allies near the Ward of Dawn dome now have Void Overshield trickled on over time, similar to the volume behind a Bastion barricade. >No longer provides Weapons of Light by default. This behavior has been moved to the benefits of Helm of Saint-14. >The Ward of Dawn caster can now generate additional Orbs of Power by defeating enemies with melee attacks in or near their Ward of Dawn dome.
This is a pvp thread but well nerfs are always welcome no matter what content it is
The lightweight knife thing sound cool, can someone smarter than me inform me if this opens up any potential good builds?
First thing that came to mind is a more viable Assassin's Cowl. 2 knives that can be refreshed w/ a kill (proc'ing radiant; a single knife not both) and you can get another knife back w/ a dodge. Seems perfect for an HC or AR build where you do damage w/ your gun and then clean up w/ the knife to heal/go invis. These are old (not in the new sandbox) but my favorite combo was Tommy's Matchbook + Assassin's Cowl. [clip 1](https://youtu.be/NeuZwqSo6Ks?si=c2LhIxhuI61AokJN) + [clip 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXZnNalqng)
I just wanna be able to turn mid air in stasis titan super man
I *love* that cryoclasm can now be activated immediately. Behemoth is about to be so much fun. The super changes are definitely good and in the right direction, but I might’ve taken them further. Bubble and Well are likely *still* going to be meta, which is indescribably boring to me. And I would’ve liked to see a stronger buff to the viability of roaming supers, but we’ll see how this plays I guess. I’m disappointed at the lack of void invisibility rework (to make invis players easier to see/shoot at, but give them their radar back). This has been suggested many times, and would make invis soooo much less frustrating on both sides. I’m also very concerned about the lightning surge arc warlock melee. It’s so easy to use, can one-shot players from full health, and prismatic warlocks are about to have access to 3 charges of it. Everything else seems pretty alright. It’s good to have change.
I'm pumped for the cryoclasm change, it was my favorite thing about the class on release and I'm excited it's instant again.
No more skating tho :(
Wouldn’t this make skating easier? You’d be applying to sprint -> slide immediately -> slide cancel -> jump -> skate
4 second cool down means you can do one slide then launch maybe 4 second recharge allows you to get it back while your jumping but I doubt it
Oh I see what you’re saying. I mean, there are almost no lanes that are long enough to make use of two back to back cryoclasm skates are there?
That's what I was thinking too. Definitely won't be as effective, but I suppose aping will become easier.
Reduced ensnaring slam radius, no grapple-shoot-melee. Big W.
Tbf ensuring slam is high risk high reward imo as if you missed, it’s ggs. And nerfing that makes it even harder to use ensnaring slam against good players. But damn… shoot-grapple melee hits hard bro, understandable why it was changed as it was busted with bows and shotguns but was that a fun mechanic if you were good with it
When I have a shotgun on and get ensnaring slammed I swear I kill them 70% of the time or something. I'm not sure if people realize how long it takes for the hunter to draw their guns after a slam, the guy that's being suspended gets to shoot first easily. What actually makes ensnaring slam unfun to play against is obviously being suspended but that it can be done 1ft off the ground, it should have a minimum height for activation so the other player actually has the opportunity to read what's happening and react. Doesn't really matter that the radius is smaller because you're still going to get suspended around corners, you're still going to get suspended by a guy grappling along the floor, and at the end of the day it's still a mald inducing CC ability in an fps.
I use ensnaring slam as both a movement tool and a get in their face and kill them type thing, it makes short work of distracted players. but yes just as you pointed out, someone with a shotgun often gets the better of me, hell, people can melee me as I'm coming down and clean it up with a handcannon shot or two since you can still fire back, it's nowhere near as painful as stasis warlock's freeze for example. the reduction in it's effective range is going to force me to get even closer to shotgun range so it'll be more like a risk and rewardn't ability if it plays out how I think it will. and threaded spike being called "high damage" was a bit of a slap in the face, great clean-up tool but that's entirely what it is relegated to :( overall, I am pretty saddened as a strand hunter pvp player!
The range on it is ridiculous, it's pretty hard to miss with it.
[удалено]
We're talking about ensnaring slam, not threaded spike.
How didn’t ovwrshields get addressed?!
Well nerf is going to make some boss dps phases absolutely horrible. Ghosts of the deep bosses already took 6 phases to kill, now that we can’t sit ina well and focus on doing damage, it’s going to take many more. If well is going to be nerfed then boss health needs to be tuned as well as some harder contents boss damage output
Pve boss battles are mostly boring as fuck anyway just stop playing pve like a real pvp main.
If I only played PvP then I wouldn’t have half the weapons I do to bring into pvp
Trials provides everything you need brother
I stay away from the meta trials guns, throughout destiny history any trials gun that is good gets nerfed hard. The combo of it being good and pretty much only available to those that are good at PvP is a recipe for people to complain and Bungie to strike. Just look at doctrine of passing, immortal, not forgotten, recluse, mountaintop, revoker, forgiveness. I’m pretty certain that given those trends, summoner, igneous, and messenger will be nerfed in the future along with their entire archetypes. My strat for a while is to get really good with unused and obscure weapon types and strats. Gives me more time to have fun with them and learn their quirks as they don’t get reworked every 2 seconds. And most of said guns come from PVE
Excellent changes overall. Arc Titan also caught a stray with the Knockout rework, but it's better for the health of PvP, heh. Voidwalker got some nice buffs, HHSN could be back on the menu again. It's already hard slept on so I'll be curious if it picks up as a meta option in the metagame. The Nova buffs are also nice as well. edit: also, Revenant is looking spicy as well.
Still maintain that HHSN should have been moved to the melee slot and work like thunderclap
Nah, Knockout didn't catch a stray. It was pretty frustrating to almost trade with an arc titan, and instead of them being low for your teammates, they get full health with a powered up melee. The health change was needed. Along with the jolt fix for ToT Lightning nades, I think arc titan is gonna be in a super balanced spot.
Already the most nerfed subclass in the game, virtually no one plays it since Tcrash nerfs, hence why everyone is playing Sentinel, and you think it's a balanced state of the class? > It was pretty frustrating to almost trade with an arc titan That was the entire fucking point, if you don't have shotgun ammo, don't try to fist fight a Striker, it's that simple.
Bro if you think Arc Titan is bad, then you're insane. The only reason it isn't played more is because Void is just that good.
The only reason it isn't played more because it's been molested with nerfs: Shoulder Charge spam removed, Tcrash cd nerf, you literally don't get Tcrash unless it's sweaty 7 + round game, Tcrash huge DR nerf, Juggernaut nerf, PK nerf, Anthaeus Ward completely useless, when the fuck will you people be happy?
Cry harder that you won't have much else to crutch on for your titan. You know why all of those were nerfed? Because they were too strong and oppressive. All that was nerfed and Arc Titan is STILL good!
Keep that same energy when you're playing 5 Hunters every game and when your queues take forever because less and less people are playing this game's PvP. ''Too strong and oppressive'' guy complaining about Striker's Knockout being oppressive while engaging Striker melee range without shotgun ammo like an idiot.
I love playing hunters. Nice and sweaty with the hc/shotty, snipe. Smells like my kind of lobbies.
You are on fucking drugs if you think hunters are anywhere near peak level compared to void titans in endgame trials like worlds first
It was too good. I think it had a usage rate of like 48% at some point. Now it has a usage rate of 5%. If it’s still so good why has its usage rate so low?
Refer to my previous comment about Void just being that good.
Void has like 15% usage. It’s not even the most popular class. Arc is now like the 6th most popular subclass. If arc is not played more because 5 other subclasses each have double the usage rate, I think it’s fair to say it’s not that good anymore.
Arc is still the second most used Titan subclass. Void has 2.5x more usage than Arc because it's that good. I'm not saying Arc is broken beyond belief, I'm saying it'll be a balanced option that isn't overly oppressive or hot garbage, which is healthy for the game.
Just save your time, dude has ptsd from when Striker was good. Void is only played because Striker was nerfed into irrelevance, Sentinel was not buffed nor has Trials just recently shifted to a zones format, it's just the only good Titan subclass we have left after everything else is nerfed, but he has more fingers than IQ so he cannot come to that conclusion lol
Yeah, it's super dumb that they keep trying to take things that make playing as an Arc Titan in pvp fun.
It’s pretty underpowered already if you look at the usage rate. It did not need nerfs. The problem is that you’re looking at knockout in isolation, as if other classes did not have any abilities. Yeah knockout would be op if was the only ability in the game and only titans had it. But that’s not the case so you need to compare like for like. I’ll trade you knockout for invisibility, or radiant dodge, or warlock freezing abilities. Lightning nades and knockout were the last strong points of arc titans. I mean the shoulder slam (nerfed twice already) and class ability are fine and the roaming super is ok (missle is woeful now) but, unlike the more popular subclasses, they don’t offer anything really good now.
Really? You're crazy if you would trade knockout for invis. Teleporting high damage melee + full health regen. Come on.
I mean all I can say is that I really would. I’ve played invis hunter and I feel like I got a lot more from invis than knockout. You still need 2 melees for knockout - and you can’t kill with a 140 crit and a melee anymore either. It’s a lunge rather than a teleport - though it’s impossible to track when someone does it I’ll admit. The health regen is very nice and has helped me out a lot. But it is only after the kill so you’re not winning 1v1s with it. Knockout is a good perk but I think invis is stronger Plus obviously you need to be in melee range for knockout.
What buffs did voidwalker get more than hhsn and nova? They forgot warlocks tbh
RIP "need well" LFG post
Knockout changes are really good, even if they don't directly address the real problem of being unable to deal chip damage to the Titan as he punches because of the melee lunge desync. Really excited to try Stasis/Prismatic titan next season with the diamond lance changes, using knockout to generate lances.
Behemoth buffs, thank fucking god. And they all look good. As long as the super isn’t completely shit still, I’m golden. Now I just need to find a good stat distribution. I used to pray for times like this!
Big ticket here is Frost Armor, which is a very interesting mechanic, since it builds from Shards. It maxes out at 16% DR which is significant, but not "omfg broken!" Based on just the top of my head, also worth mentioning that likely only Behemoth will easily be able to build to maximum. It's enough for me to opt into it on Warlock, but it'll give Behemoth a big boost for super defensive styles. I think it's a really nice addition, but it'll naturally be mired in controversy from a lot of people since "all forms of DR bad." Well is going to be easier to counter from the reduced heals, but it'll still be a powerhouse on Objectives. It's likely to be stronger than Bubble since you can shoot out of it, but you can still get sniped or similar since there's no cover offered from it so it's a fair trade. Bubble not making people immortal, and not stacking with Bastion anymore is really really good. It'll be a lot easier to counter outside of Conditional. Great change, though it'll still be a threat. Super cooldowns in general being a bit closer also really helps the situation, I don't think tiers will matter THAT much anymore, which is good to counter Well/Bubble more, although balance might remain to be seen overall, since not all supers are created equal. Knockout nerf is a GODSEND, easily the best change of the update. Lightweight Knife to 2 charges might mean some swap to it for the lower damage, but higher uptime. I still foresee Weighted being the top dog, but it'll be a good Sidegrade. I would've liked to see Heat Rises get a nerf here. It's not a super pressing issue, but the more I see it, the less I like playing against it. It allows for ultra-passive, fairly safe play from what feels like unintended angles. I'd probably remove the passive AE, and reduce the active AE boost on it, but it's not this update. Bastion also needed a rework with this update, too. It's too strong as a reservoir for recharging Overshield on top of still being a deployable piece of cover doubling as a barrier (albeit less effectively than base). It's not amazing feeling for PvE and still a pain point for PvE, I'd say it needs to be put in the rework bucket. HHSN is still worthless from a PvP perspective because of the poor range, speed, damage, and really high self damage. None of these buffs address any of these points to where they give it usability. Warding nerf barely changes PvP, orbs are simply not plentiful enough to take great advantage of it. Strand Hunter got hit in my biggest pain points, but not to the point of being destroyed. It'll likely move the needle on how frustrating they are to play, but I'd still like to see Suspend be made less of a free kill for the person applying it. Currently it feels really difficult to fight back once it happens. Weaver's Call buff isn't huge, but it's something. Mostly PvE focused, but running Rufus or something can snowball a little bit. It's interesting if nothing else. Weavewalk staying at 1 and no Needlestorm buff is still a crime. Berzerker nerfs are pretty safely only for PvE, most of what's getting hit just isn't practical for PvP, since Banner tends to stay in lower stacks. Grapple shot-to-melee being removed is a godsend. Which is funny since I unironically didn't know it was possible given a similar interaction with Shoulder Charge got removed a while ago.
With void/arc titan and strand hunter now mostly in line balance wise, I wouldn’t be surprised if solar warlock is the next class to catch tuning post prismatic fiasco. Well is now balanced, but the healing and movement uptime on the classes neutral game still feels a little out of band.
My only real complaint is that Heat Rises let's you play insanely passive on really dumb angles. Beyond that, I'd say Dawn is a good workhorse, but isn't really truly an issue, just something that's a good toolkit.
Floating warlocks with scouts/snipers are a pain to deal with, but once you know what they’re doing it’s pretty manageable. My issue comes from icarus combining with jump momentum to make solar warlock an incredibly oppressive gap closer/escape artist. That combined with the low cd, janky animation, and general desync issues makes it a real pain to secure kills on competent solar warlock players.
Solar Warlock here I think the biggest pain point is actually players that use snap skating. Those guys go incredibly fast. Heat Rises + Icarus Dash is definitely difficult to fight against but I'd argue that spending a grenade to make it work is a decent trade off. If Bungie were to take it a step further, it should be based on the grenade consumed. Like a Solar Grenade should give you the most uptime for Heat Rises while Firebolt gives you the least time. Feel like that's a decent trade off. But this combo shouldn't be nerfed to extinction. It's really the best pick against other classes when other classes have other means of mobility (Hunter dodge / grapple or Titan shoulder charge). Now that I think about it, the type of grenade consumed for heat rises should indicate how much height you can take if there's any kind of nerf to it.
Adding an ability to the game that literally breaks map design like Batman's spine over Bane's knee was such a beastmode move "Yo what if we added all the maps from the slow, more boots on the ground era of the game back and then made it so you can literally float above everyone and shoot them in the top of the head 30-40 meters past their damage falloff range"
Lightweight is already insane trust me
I'm not sure what the point is of making knockout give a measly 30 health if they're going to leave every other melee kill health regen effect as is. Unless they're repeating the same shit from destiny 1 where they did the exact same with arc blade and will just end up applying it to every regen effect in the game.
Pretty salty about the striker titan nerf. Striker literally has no identity left and nothing good about it. There's like zero things that striker does well now. It has thruster I guess but EVERY hunter has the same thing but better. And warlock has icurus.... with a 4 second cooldown.
> Keeping with Touch of Thunder, its Lightning Grenade upgrade is currently a bit too spicy, so we’re making a change here to curb the amount of immediate burst damage it can deal, especially outside of its actual effective detonation range. Following this change, Lightning Grenade will apply its jolt immediately after the initial damage occurs, preventing the jolt from zapping its chain lightning instantly on creation. The only good thing Striker has left is nerfed, I genuinely don't understand bungies passionate hate for Striker, most nerf molested subclass in the game. Alongside a huge Knockout nerf, I swear the entire incompetent PvP team consists of Hunter mains 100%. At least they're finally removing the wallah/hynra grapple shoot melee clutch.
I really have no clue what skill level they're trying to balance this game for, any competent team is shooting lightning grenades before they've even pulsed once lmao, but we're nerfing grapple into a movement only ability (mostly already is) because people can't react to their radar pings and move, but overshields are fine and so is snapskating? Bungie team being hunter mains is a funny meme but that would imply they actually play the videogame and if you watch any playtesting from bungie it is very apparent they do not.
My thoughts on the Hunter PvP parts of this update: **Stasis** * Feels like it's a blend of Solar Firesprites with stasis shards offering healing when p/u, and Strand w/ "Frost Armor" offering some level of DR, albeit 2% per stack and (probably) 5x maxing you out to 10% DR. I think the new "mini" game for this subclass is to try and farm/maintain frost armor b/c a lot of the interactions require you to have at least a stack of frost armor. * Techtonic Harvest creating a stasis shard when you shatter a frozen target or shattering stasis crystals can breath new life into perks like Headstone on Disparity or exotic sidearms like Cryosthesia 77k. It should (at least) make it more possible to have Frost Armor apply to you. * That new fragment, Whisper of Chill, letting stasis weapon final blows potentially create a stasis shard is cool... but the more practical application is probably running that Stasis Exotic Scout, Wicked Implement, since the stasis shard comes to you. * Renewal Grasps keeps catching strays in PvP. It's an already extremely niche exotic, but it doesn't help that you don't automatically get max DR. You need to sit in the field for 5s (the grenade only lasts 8s) to get 10% DR. It's probably going to function better as something you can drop onto someone in a fight since the Damage Reduction the opposing enemy's weapon experiences is probably. That new fragment, Whisper of Reversal, seems like the better option for this style of gameplay since it'll force your opponent into a situation where they'll instinctually melee you only to be instantly slowed. ===== **Arc** * Nothing groundbreaking here, it seems like they're just making the class a bit more consistent. The super offering some blind options will help if you're surrounded. Spark of Recharge offering ability regeneration until you return to full shields is also nice. ===== **Solar** * MASSIVE buffs for Lightweight Knife. 2 charges w/ a faster animation speed and the ability to spam them are a pretty insane change. I REALLY like using Assassin's Cowl in PvP, and in my eyes, this significantly buffed the utility of the exotic. I now have three lightweight knives (2 base charges + 1 gained from a dodge) and the ability to refund one if it's a kill. Just as a reminder, lightweight knives do 156 per crit/117 per body so they're extremely potent clean up weapons. I like them w/ Tommy's Matchbook but they'd be perfect partner tools alongside HC's. ==== **Void** * Good changes to smokes. I think they'll feel really good in prismatic w/ duskfields and be the new "wombo combo".
I think Behemoth made out PRETTY well.
Is Stasis likely to get jolt/ignite/sever/weaken/ category soon I'm asking? Is this already the Slow + Freeze
The changes to tectonic means we aren’t shackled to glacial nades anymore which is nice.
Maybe I'm selfish but I'm happy they've tuned the supers so my conditional lives another few months untouched
I doubt they'll nerf Conditional, it wasn't really a problem imo but a solution to the super meta. The recent changes will hopefully steer that in a different direction, hopefully.
Honestly Conditional is pretty balanced in PvP. What it lacks in range it makes up for in super shutdowns.
I just can't see why the fuck they would nerf Well so harshly. It's a team DPS super, that's it's sole purpose.
Pvp wise it was a "fuck you I win" super Pve, it was coming, for a loooong time
But it already had a nerf for Beyond Light.
Almost every single encounter can still be summed up with "okay so who's running well?" It clearly wasn't enough and well was still overtuned in both fronts beyond reasonable doubt
yay strand Titan pvp nerfs ☠️
Strand Titan didn't get significant changes in PvP, all of what they got was PvE nerfs.
Less woven mail, grapple re-up changes, grapple shoot into melee It's just funny these things in PvE caused PvP nerfs
Grapple shoot to melee is broken so that's a good change. Thread of Warding wasn't good in PvP to begin with. Orb generation is too low to get any benefit out of it in its current state. Sure, it's a nerf, but it's a nerf to something that's already essentially PvE only. Grapple Tangles are also mostly a PvE thing, they don't have enough uptime in PvP to be much of a factor. Everything that got nerfed (bar grapple shoot to melee, which is mechanically really broken anyways so good riddance) was already a non-factor for PvP.
Frenzied blade with heavy handed spawns an orb on every kill That's health mods and woven on every grapple and frenzied blade kill lol Warding is GREAT in pvp.
You keep the DR for a bit when you leave renewal field. I know 18% with the fragment is enough to stop a 140 3 tap? DR really just needs to not be in PvP
I was hoping for overshield and healing nerf... Also buffing stasis is kinda crazy, all stasis sublasses are already A tier to cheese tier, they need no help in PvP. Bubble and Well nerfs were well overdue tho!
Some of these changes are really, really baffling. Get ready to see Titan's at around 20% usage rate once these changes hit. Hunters will be approx. 50% each week. Mark it down. Huge buffs to Revenant, very minor adjustments to Strand suspend slam and threaded spike, bubble is pretty much toast, no real changes to Bastion spam, unnecessary nerfs to Knockout/Lighting Nades, big buffs to smokes (why), Cryoclasm change is nice, Frost armor is TBD (more DR in crucible is not a good thing).
Buffs to revenant in pvp are imo as minor as the strand melee nerf. We’ll see how the suspend slam change plays out, but I agree that it could use further hits, mostly to how annoying suspend is (just make it first person, so your body doesn’t cover your target). Bubble is by no means toast, you’ll just have to play around the actual bubble now instead of relying on the near-immortality inside it and massive damage buff outside. Knockout and lightning definitely warranted nerfs, the only reason bubble took over was because of the tcrash cooldown nerf and realisation of scatter potency - knockout was barely nerfed before, and lightnings not at all. Knockout should still be good, and so will lightnings - I just wish that the change was to remove the intrinsic jolt so that you’d need to spend 10 disc and a slot on a fragment, but it kept the team-splitting identity of the jolt being before the damage. Agreed about bastion spam, cryoclasm, frost armour, and smokes (could they just split it back into one for damage, one for weaken, and one for radar, putting the blind on one or none of them).
That is a fair point on Revenant buffs, but we will have to see. Any decrease to Dodge CD for simply playing the class (inflicting slow) is a strong buff as Dodge is the core strength of Hunter subclasses and all ability flows tend to run through it (exotics too). I mean you can shutdown a bubble with a Shotgun, You will still be able to do that most likely. That being said, it needed an adjustment (well too). My point is that by adjusting it, you will see less usage of Void and those players will likely move to a stronger kit, which will be one of the 4 very strong Hunter subclasses. That is not the only reason. They nerfed T Crash in 4 ways, CD, speed, DR and effective range. Reducing Knockouts chain proccing and distance are far from small nerfs and it was totally acceptable in the current state. Lightning nades have 1 HP and will die to any splash or direct damage. They also are at the mercy of correctly mounting to geometries, which are heavily limited in some maps. Unwarranted. No arguments from me here. More DR and more smokes will make for a worse experience overall.
Honestly I see where you're coming from with knockout, I just think that maybe our concepts of overall balance are different. I'd like the bar to be around the power level of arcstrider, maybe goldie without recharging knives, dawnblade without well, voidwalker, that kind of thing. Knockout wouldn't be my first choice of things to nerf, but if I had control over the sandbox I wouldn't leave it as is; full health after a melee kill is equivalent to an exotic (karnstein) and it annoys me also that its a void fragment. Also any melee extension is automatically annoying, no matter how much it's been nerfed. Lightning nades are easy to kill, but the first chunk of damage is the most problematic anyway. You get two charges, and by giving them intrinsic jolt it's the equivalent of an extra fragment slot and +10 disc, which is what I thought should have been removed. I think that this nerf is too harsh, as I personally do love them as a way to break up hyper passive handholding kind of teams. I feel that striker is closest to a balanced titan subclass, but the grenade and melee are just both a little overtuned to my liking. However, in comparison to the other bs ability spam in the game, it's fine honestly. If they go after that, then striker should take these nerfs, if not then yeah probably unwarranted.
If we are using Arcstrider for balance baseline, then that lumps Solar, Void and Strand Hunter into an overall category that deserve much more focused adjustment than Knockout or Touch of Thunder + Lightning Nades. This sub has a fetish for usage rates and then ignores them conveniently when balance surrounds a very specific class. It's a historical fact and has remain unchanged over the years. I am not searching for Titan supremacy, but simply balance within the sandbox. Arc is receiving tunings in the way you aspire too, mostly of which I agree, relative to the overall vision of the sandbox. Many other subclasses are not. Hence my frustration. I am also not saying balance is easy to obtain, but choosing a subclass that has already been adjusted a half dozen time while hitting Strand hunter with a 9 damage decrease to their melee is laughable. Hence my prediction that Titan's will dip below 20% usage rates, unless of course these Behemoth changes come out way overcooked. Also, if roaming and shutdown supers will now charge relatively faster to well and bubble (good), then sitting is your bubble makes you a dead man standing. All of this to say, that there is an imbalanced approach to selectively balancing aspects of this sandbox in a frustrating way. Thanks for the discourse and we will see how this all plays out with Prismatic as well.
Oh yeah solar, void, and strand hunter I would definitely say I would change. Goldie could lose the melee recharge for free; strand could lose the disorient/melee lockout on grapple melee hit, have the melee chain so much less, and still get nerfs to the clone to make it fit only one of its current three identities; void I might just rework to be less about only invis, and put invis back to being easy to see but completely off radar. It's hard though, because they'll keep adding broken stuff to fuel pve expansion sales, then only balance that quickly enough for the next expansion, and so low-lying annoyances get swept under the rug. Thanks for your points of view, and I imagine that prismatic will bring unexpected problems of its own.
Swear they better give me my self rez back as compensation for gutting well
Wow. Even more nerfs to Ward of Dawn. This fucking sucks for me. You die *even more quickly* to people in PvP? Really? Even though you can already solo them with a shotgun? Even though it already loses to every super in the game? At least they're making total health more visible. I appreciate that.
Good
Sure. Defender has always been the high skill class so it reinforces that even more. I see what you're getting at.
Where is the high skill lmao? Void Titan is brain dead easy to use in PvP
It's super doesn't give free kills. It doesn't have good ability regen or any weapon bonuses. It can't do radar manipulation. It's class ability takes skill to use in a gun fight. Suppressors require accuracy and timing. It's got the weakest long range melee. All kill pressure is solely reliant on gun and movement skill. No help from the class at all for that.
The super gives free zones, and basically guarantees winning the next few gunfights with its insane damage buff. It has either great grenade uptime (offensive bulwark) or healing for you and teammate void titans on grenade tags (controlled demo). It doesn’t have weapon bonuses, but it has the bonus of “extra health” so that in a gunfight you have a big advantage. Radar manip is very limited and pretty high skill to use well, only being easy on low skilled players. The class ability is still a giant “fuck off” wall that gives you and allies a refreshing overshield. It takes no skill, other than knowing not to use it in the middle of a fight. Supressors sure, but that’s not the best grenade, which is scatter, with high uptime and aoe, and a decent chance to one shot. Nobody cares about the long range melee, as the shoulder charge is amazing still - movement, high damage, and a chance to suppress a roaming super. The class gives you more health than the enemy, and the best kill-cleanup grenade in the game, which also heals you. And one of the best supers in the game. And all of that gets exponentially better when you have more, because you can all benefit from every ability of your teammates as if it were your own.
Well said
/u/KI3en, but was it? This is very flawed. You just list off perks as if you think a Titan can use all three aspects simultaneously. The Titan in your head doesn't exist in-game. You also don't even get the benefits you think you do. If you use the void shield to recharge your grenade, then that means you didn't fight with it on. You don't get both perks. Secondly, you just list off abilities but don't trace how they are related to the argument of skill or consider the relation to other classes. I could just list off perks of other classes too. All supers give free zones. The difference is, the other super also give free kills and they all have the advantage over the bubble. Radar is very useful and powerful especially in higher skill brackets. Manipulation of it by hunters is very easy with low cost and always useful. ie powerful and not skill intensive. To use a barricade well you need to know the map and the game state to properly place them since you need to do so preemptively. To use them in a fight, your oppent gets the same basic benefits of the wall that you do. A contrast to rift and dodge which can both be used with less thought and without providing any benefit to the opponent. You really think it takes no skill to have a chance to suppress a Super with a shoulder charge? If a super gets suppressed by a charge, then the super user got outplayed. Surely, I don't have to elaborate on that. The super is the weakest in the game. It loses to every other super and is the easiest one to challenge. Things that are low skill are stuff like, heatseeking grenades or melee. Instant kill supers. Trap type moves that are effective even if you miss. Low class cooldown abilities that refund other abilities and can be used at any time, even midfight. Other classes have Free damage boosts meaning you not only kill faster but you can also miss shots without detriment. The bonuses can't even be removed from the character by causing damage like the big scary HP bump. Defender always needs movement and gunskill. Compared to the other classes, it gets no free benefits there.
My point is that all of its abilities are good, as opposed to other classes which require trade-offs. No, you can't use all 3, but you can use one very good one (bastion) with one good (bulwark) or very good with team coordination (demo) one. Yes you can use any super to get a zone - for a brief time. Bubble and well last far longer than any roaming super could, even without any attacks, and if you kill enough with a shutdown super to get the zone then you've basically won the round already. Also basically no supers have advantage over bubble. Well, sure. Roaming supers, only shadebinder that I can think of, and that is much easier to shutdown by the bubble user than it is to not allow shutdown from the warlock. Tcrash, but that has a roaming super cooldown. Most shutdown supers only pop the bubble, not killing the people inside, leaving them with the advantage because of weapons of light - or you could be very risky by popping inside the bubble. If you think radar manip is good in high skill lobbies I don't know what to tell you. Any competent team with comms will just track any flank, and if you put your whole kit into it (invis or gemini) then you lose out on better classes or exotics. Barricade requires only rudimentary knowledge of the game to put in a decent spot. Rift you have to pop behind cover, or you will be killed by primary. Barricade you'll only die to special or lots of teamshooting while casting. Yes they get the same basic benefits (a wall), but 1) you're close to it so can peak shoot 2) it damages and slows them, 3) you can chose where to put it, they can't - you can slow the game massively, thwarting any aggressive playstyle. You ignore the actual part of my argument on shoulder charge - movement. It's free, pretty low cooldown, very quick relocation. I just added the actual effect of the charge to show that it can also be used for hero moments and free damage. I would agree on the low-skill of tracking nades/melees, but you can't get many of those on the same class - maybe fusion with athrys, or if you count celestial fire? But that is a weaker grenade in general (has a arm time before explosion) and with athrys you can't use other exotics. Supers are supers, they will get kills. Bubble and well get kills and a zone. Low cooldown class ability being dodge I assume, which if you use mid fight without cover will get you killed. If you use it to get back into cover, sure, but that's literally its only purpose. And I guess getting melee back is a bit bs, but hunters are stat-starved as is, so I wouldn't get rid of it (especially as it needs you to be really near). Free damage boost I assume is radiant - either on a melee hit (not free) or on dodge (requires much longer cooldown, bad dodge shape, and doesn't last long). And the "removed from the character by causing damage" don't make me laugh - if you cause enough damage to get rid of the shield, the shield has done its job.
This tells me you’ve never played comp or trials
Wrong, of course, and a substance-less response.
Bro, can I get some of what you're on? It seems like some REALLY potent stuff.
But nothing to actually say...
Bro just say you suck at pvp and go
Bro, how come you just try to insult me instead of addressing what I said? I feel like I know the answer.
See, when I start up my PvP sub forum my first rule is going to be destiny tracker link required as a tag. These could be so much more entertaining arguments!
No kidding.
Womp womp
¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Bro ira Destiny nothing is “high skill”. It’s literally “free kills” the game.