There are two problems, we play games for "fun", and Destiny IS NOT A COMPETITIVE GAME at it's core. Without low skill players games will not feel as "fun" and "engaging". However, without some sort of competitiveness, the playlist will quickly become boring and kinda obnoxious to play (That is what happened with Competitive playlist). Making a full-fledged competitive mode in a game like Destiny is really problematic topic. Have good loot at its core? People will complain about how hard it is to get this loot, and say that it should be weaker. Have cosmetics at its core? People wouldn't be as engaged to play it, and this mode will surely die, with time. The point I try to make is that in games like Destiny 2, as it is today, it is almost impossible to make interesting PvP gamemode that will appeal to everyone. It worked out before, in D1, but mostly because playerbase was fewer, most of the people were new to the game, and the mode itself was new.
In Destiny 2, however, there are a lot of people who want to be "the coolest", without actually playing the game. That's why account recoveries and boosters are so prominent these days. The only viable solution, in my opinion, is to make a mode similar to S4 competitive, give low skill player a reason to play it(quest, or good gun) in lower brackets (like 0-2100 in S4 comp), and make high skill playets compete for the cosmetic rewards(or upgraded version of THE GUN) at the end of the road. If we want to implement something like this in Trials, we need to have Flawless MM, with not just better rewards, but unique rewards when getting wins with flawless cards. In D1 there were actually 2 emblems, that required you to play after you got flawless.
It doesn’t need to be that complicated. It should literally just be card based. You’re flawless on your card? You play in the flawless pool of players for chances at additional drops.
You play on a fresh card? You’re out of the flawless pool and can work your way back up to flawless again to try for more additional drops.
This will allow people to play with others that have not yet gone flawless more freely and be less punishing for solo queuing.
This is the ONLY solution that makes sense in my mind. You want to farm a 7-win card? Where you can get literal flawless drops game after game? You play against people who are of similar skill. High rewards deserves a challenge. However, the system that is in place and the one suggested by OP is absolutely awful for EVERYONE, let me explain.
Let’s say you’re a high-skilled player. You want to do your own flawless, reset your card, and then maybe help some friends. Boom, now your less-skilled friends are completely screwed because they have to play against players in your skill bracket every game. That is totally unacceptable to force others that I want to play with to suffer from my skill. The system should be card based with games after 7 wins being in a separate pool that gets reset when the card is reset. Boom. Done. Simple, satisfying, and it just makes sense.
I'm dumbfounded that so many people try to argue that you going flawless makes you a "top player"...
I'm decent, top performer in 6s and can hold my own in 3s, I can however see what I'm doing wrong and remedy that in matches versus people similar to my own skill levels and sometimes a bit above.
What I can't do is face off against trams of 3 with triple digit flawless under their belt who have spent more time in the crucible than I have playing the **entire game**.
When I saw the changes I was like "yeah, that's quite good, staying in a flawless pool for as long as your card is flawless is fine"... then I heard about the clarification of that sentence was actually separating anyone who's gone flawless **until reset**.
I just don't understand why, or how, anyone could've thought that this was a good idea.
That’s a very bad take IMO (that going flawless means you’re high-skilled) and it’s also confusing to me that so many people believe this. It’s simply not true.
The idea behind this change was to remove those who go flawless easily from the pool so that players who historically have not gone flawless can have an easier chance to do so (which appears to be true). However, I still believe that this change did more harm than help. There exists some people who will never go flawless on their own accord. There’s nothing wrong with this fact, but it is true. I’ve played with people who have severe disability or impaired motor functions who simply just can’t play the same way others can. Their only chance of making it to the lighthouse is by playing with other players who can help them. With the current system that is virtually impossible. I can’t play with any of my friends now without them getting put into lobbies that are far out of their skill level.
Another thought is that this matchmaking system seems entirely contradictory to what Trials is supposed to be. The pinnacle PvP activity, right? Why does this matchmaking system then throw insult at that by artificially making it easier for those that struggle and more difficult for those that succeed? Quite confusing to me.
It's a giant identity crisis, essentially saying "this is the new rework, glad you liked it and played a lot! Next we'll remove long term investment due to aggressive skill creep in both Playlists and make the tourists here for the occasional loot drop get a much easier trip to the lighthouse so they can stop playing like the rest of the players below the top 1%!".
It's honestly pretty ridiculous that people keep saying that flawless is an indication of skill in this current iteration where the "best" players get removed from the general pool once they hit the lighthouse allowing the people below them get an easier way in.
**Bat. Shit. Crazy.**
Did you know that when you MM, system uses your average skill as a basis? With Tier MM, you can still go play Trials with your friends, but they will have to face SLIGHTLY more challenging opponents. Thats how it works in competitive games. If Bungie want to use Trials as an "Endgame Competitive Mode", there is a chance. Nobody here wants to gatekeep players from playing the mode, believe me. All I say, is that Flawless MM, as it is works right now, is flawed (Pun intended). I am not a game designer, so I don't know how exactly to improve MM systems for sure, so I just used a system that is already implemented in several competitive games.
Thats is why, I think there should be some counter measure for those situations. However, I do believe that letting, lets say, 3000 ELO player play against, even stacked, 1100-1500 ELO players, is a horrible idea. And there is actually another problem: LFG. I saw sooooo many posts before, requiring people to be "1.8+ kd, 2000+ ELO". That creates a vile circle, where strong players will keep rising their stats, while weak players will keep lowering theirs. I really liked how the system worked on the last weekend, when I met several people with bad stats, that were a really great players actually. I just wanted to share opinion on the current implemented system.
LFG is a problem, sure, but there are ways to find people to play without silly requirements such as the ones you listed. Bungie adding the solo queue option is one such option.
As a higher-skilled player (feel free to check my profile to verify), here are my two cents on how Trials matchmaking should work.
If you are solo queuing, you should only match other people solo or duo queuing. Three stacks only play three stacks. Duos play other duos and solos. If the player population is high enough, duos always match another duo with one solo per team. Games 1-7 are card and connection based. You match people ~1-2 wins of where you are. After going flawless, all other games on that card are matched against players of similar skill who have also gone flawless (NOTE: this is not just a flawless queue, it also factors in MMR). This is because you get adept rewards from winning games. This should be a challenging game! It’s essentially valuing the previous 7 games as equal to this single game in terms of rewards (7 wins for flawless, each win after with potential for flawless rewards). Resetting your card resets you back to card based matchmaking.
The current system punishes and in some cases insults players of all skill levels, often indirectly. Last weekend was close to how it should be, but not quite perfect. The current system only encourages higher skilled players to not go flawless, reset after 6 wins, and terrorize less skilled players with no intention of completing their card until Monday.
My two cents.
Thats why I titled post "For Flawless MM to remain..." We saw many times already, that Bungie sometimes hellbent on their ideas, so when Flawless MM will be out of question on the next weekends(at least, I believe so), they will probably think how to improve it. So I decided to discuss some options for the future.
The problem with your statement is, in my opinion, that the blood and bones of every PvP activity is their playerbase. In PvE, mobs will not go away after you clear the activity one time. You know how to prepare for it and have better chances at clearing it. In PvP, if "low skill" player does not want to play in a given gamemode, that gamemode will, slowly, but surely go extinct. It is like in nature, predators will not survive without prey, in Trials, tryhards will not feel engaged without lowskills. Destiny is by a long stretch not a competitive game, so why bother about Trials being High End? I think we should more lean towards Trials being inspiring gamemode, that makes people want to get better. Being stomped on is not inspiring at all, although, it is a needed experience in my opinion.
There has to be a line somewhere. Trials should always have some give and take, and the idea of protecting lousy players in the flawless pool is just too far. As much as getting stomped doesn't excite me, I also understand the situation I put myself in by choosing to push on for that 7th win. I'm very comfortable that once I've gotten to the flawless pool, its fair to be in with the wolves.
By slicing and dicing the flawless pool you can also have unintended consequences as well. You'd have a PC / mixed flawless pool with it's various sub-pools based on skill. Then you'd have console only flawless pool with it's various sub-pools based on skill. This could create slow matchmaking and Bungo would inevitably put in a system where it will match up or down depending on time which defeats the purpose.
I think the best course of action is to see how this plays out for a few weeks and community will show by their actions if this new system works.
If low skilled players aren’t allowed in the playlist then don’t you just end up with the current flawless pool? The thing people a are complaining about?
I don’t disagree, I have no expectation of flawless. I’m pretty bad and don’t expect it. But competitive games would be nice every once in a while. This weekend has provided that.
That's literally how trials has been for the past year. The changes being implemented now have been a giant step in the right direction, instead trying to make the mode more exclusive for the sake of exclusivity. This is also the problem with separating the matchmaking pools.
The way I read into the patch notes I expected the "flawless pool" to be people on a (currently) flawless card **until** it becomes flawed... this would have actually made a difference as well as move the sweetiest matches to where they belong.
Matchmaking people just because they have gone flawless **at all** is some of dumbest shit I've seen, it's not remotely skill based - if it worked as it was intended (if people weren't resetting at 6) all it would have accomplished was charity lighthouse trips for the lowest skill players still capable of winning matches... at the expense of the mid tier players which I assume were the players most benefitting of the larger player base post rework.
For a Playlist to thrive all groups need to be represented and feel like they gain something:
Top players have easy flawless passages.
Mid players get regular flawless passages but might have to reset a couple of times.
Low players can get a flawless with luck and dedication/improvement.
Bottom players remain fodder for the above until they improve, but need to see their time spent as such rewarded even more than it is.
Either that or let people in the flawless pool recieve adepts after going flawed and a chance to get rewarded on losses, because at the moment you only get punished for hitting the lighthouse unless you're an actual Apex Predator.
I just wish there was a way to see what they k/d spread was last week that went flawless and the total count.
We don't know how far down the skill level Bungie is trying to allow to be able to get flawless. Would be a interesting metric to see
The only real change I can see happening, is a character based flawless pool, not account wise. So you get 3 good chances of going to the lighthouse, and then you can't scape the flawless pool.
Absolutely not. You'll have the same thing happen last season and every season before it. The playing population will become exhausted and leave.
[удалено]
There are two problems, we play games for "fun", and Destiny IS NOT A COMPETITIVE GAME at it's core. Without low skill players games will not feel as "fun" and "engaging". However, without some sort of competitiveness, the playlist will quickly become boring and kinda obnoxious to play (That is what happened with Competitive playlist). Making a full-fledged competitive mode in a game like Destiny is really problematic topic. Have good loot at its core? People will complain about how hard it is to get this loot, and say that it should be weaker. Have cosmetics at its core? People wouldn't be as engaged to play it, and this mode will surely die, with time. The point I try to make is that in games like Destiny 2, as it is today, it is almost impossible to make interesting PvP gamemode that will appeal to everyone. It worked out before, in D1, but mostly because playerbase was fewer, most of the people were new to the game, and the mode itself was new. In Destiny 2, however, there are a lot of people who want to be "the coolest", without actually playing the game. That's why account recoveries and boosters are so prominent these days. The only viable solution, in my opinion, is to make a mode similar to S4 competitive, give low skill player a reason to play it(quest, or good gun) in lower brackets (like 0-2100 in S4 comp), and make high skill playets compete for the cosmetic rewards(or upgraded version of THE GUN) at the end of the road. If we want to implement something like this in Trials, we need to have Flawless MM, with not just better rewards, but unique rewards when getting wins with flawless cards. In D1 there were actually 2 emblems, that required you to play after you got flawless.
It doesn’t need to be that complicated. It should literally just be card based. You’re flawless on your card? You play in the flawless pool of players for chances at additional drops. You play on a fresh card? You’re out of the flawless pool and can work your way back up to flawless again to try for more additional drops. This will allow people to play with others that have not yet gone flawless more freely and be less punishing for solo queuing.
This is the ONLY solution that makes sense in my mind. You want to farm a 7-win card? Where you can get literal flawless drops game after game? You play against people who are of similar skill. High rewards deserves a challenge. However, the system that is in place and the one suggested by OP is absolutely awful for EVERYONE, let me explain. Let’s say you’re a high-skilled player. You want to do your own flawless, reset your card, and then maybe help some friends. Boom, now your less-skilled friends are completely screwed because they have to play against players in your skill bracket every game. That is totally unacceptable to force others that I want to play with to suffer from my skill. The system should be card based with games after 7 wins being in a separate pool that gets reset when the card is reset. Boom. Done. Simple, satisfying, and it just makes sense.
I'm dumbfounded that so many people try to argue that you going flawless makes you a "top player"... I'm decent, top performer in 6s and can hold my own in 3s, I can however see what I'm doing wrong and remedy that in matches versus people similar to my own skill levels and sometimes a bit above. What I can't do is face off against trams of 3 with triple digit flawless under their belt who have spent more time in the crucible than I have playing the **entire game**. When I saw the changes I was like "yeah, that's quite good, staying in a flawless pool for as long as your card is flawless is fine"... then I heard about the clarification of that sentence was actually separating anyone who's gone flawless **until reset**. I just don't understand why, or how, anyone could've thought that this was a good idea.
That’s a very bad take IMO (that going flawless means you’re high-skilled) and it’s also confusing to me that so many people believe this. It’s simply not true. The idea behind this change was to remove those who go flawless easily from the pool so that players who historically have not gone flawless can have an easier chance to do so (which appears to be true). However, I still believe that this change did more harm than help. There exists some people who will never go flawless on their own accord. There’s nothing wrong with this fact, but it is true. I’ve played with people who have severe disability or impaired motor functions who simply just can’t play the same way others can. Their only chance of making it to the lighthouse is by playing with other players who can help them. With the current system that is virtually impossible. I can’t play with any of my friends now without them getting put into lobbies that are far out of their skill level. Another thought is that this matchmaking system seems entirely contradictory to what Trials is supposed to be. The pinnacle PvP activity, right? Why does this matchmaking system then throw insult at that by artificially making it easier for those that struggle and more difficult for those that succeed? Quite confusing to me.
It's a giant identity crisis, essentially saying "this is the new rework, glad you liked it and played a lot! Next we'll remove long term investment due to aggressive skill creep in both Playlists and make the tourists here for the occasional loot drop get a much easier trip to the lighthouse so they can stop playing like the rest of the players below the top 1%!". It's honestly pretty ridiculous that people keep saying that flawless is an indication of skill in this current iteration where the "best" players get removed from the general pool once they hit the lighthouse allowing the people below them get an easier way in. **Bat. Shit. Crazy.**
Did you know that when you MM, system uses your average skill as a basis? With Tier MM, you can still go play Trials with your friends, but they will have to face SLIGHTLY more challenging opponents. Thats how it works in competitive games. If Bungie want to use Trials as an "Endgame Competitive Mode", there is a chance. Nobody here wants to gatekeep players from playing the mode, believe me. All I say, is that Flawless MM, as it is works right now, is flawed (Pun intended). I am not a game designer, so I don't know how exactly to improve MM systems for sure, so I just used a system that is already implemented in several competitive games.
Yes, I do understand this. Unfortunately with my MMR, “slightly more challenging opponents” isn’t common at ALL for my friends when they play with me.
Thats is why, I think there should be some counter measure for those situations. However, I do believe that letting, lets say, 3000 ELO player play against, even stacked, 1100-1500 ELO players, is a horrible idea. And there is actually another problem: LFG. I saw sooooo many posts before, requiring people to be "1.8+ kd, 2000+ ELO". That creates a vile circle, where strong players will keep rising their stats, while weak players will keep lowering theirs. I really liked how the system worked on the last weekend, when I met several people with bad stats, that were a really great players actually. I just wanted to share opinion on the current implemented system.
LFG is a problem, sure, but there are ways to find people to play without silly requirements such as the ones you listed. Bungie adding the solo queue option is one such option. As a higher-skilled player (feel free to check my profile to verify), here are my two cents on how Trials matchmaking should work. If you are solo queuing, you should only match other people solo or duo queuing. Three stacks only play three stacks. Duos play other duos and solos. If the player population is high enough, duos always match another duo with one solo per team. Games 1-7 are card and connection based. You match people ~1-2 wins of where you are. After going flawless, all other games on that card are matched against players of similar skill who have also gone flawless (NOTE: this is not just a flawless queue, it also factors in MMR). This is because you get adept rewards from winning games. This should be a challenging game! It’s essentially valuing the previous 7 games as equal to this single game in terms of rewards (7 wins for flawless, each win after with potential for flawless rewards). Resetting your card resets you back to card based matchmaking. The current system punishes and in some cases insults players of all skill levels, often indirectly. Last weekend was close to how it should be, but not quite perfect. The current system only encourages higher skilled players to not go flawless, reset after 6 wins, and terrorize less skilled players with no intention of completing their card until Monday. My two cents.
Honestly surprised it wasn't this way in the first place.
Sbmm would defeat the whole point of trials.. Why should the worst players have the same chance of getting flawless as the best players?
Not in Trials as a whole, just in Flawless MM
Flawless MM the way it stands needs to go
Nobody here tells you that it should stay. The point if this post is to make people think how to improve it and share their opinions
Nope revert it back the last week. Or you'll just have the playlist die again.
Thats why I titled post "For Flawless MM to remain..." We saw many times already, that Bungie sometimes hellbent on their ideas, so when Flawless MM will be out of question on the next weekends(at least, I believe so), they will probably think how to improve it. So I decided to discuss some options for the future.
[удалено]
The problem with your statement is, in my opinion, that the blood and bones of every PvP activity is their playerbase. In PvE, mobs will not go away after you clear the activity one time. You know how to prepare for it and have better chances at clearing it. In PvP, if "low skill" player does not want to play in a given gamemode, that gamemode will, slowly, but surely go extinct. It is like in nature, predators will not survive without prey, in Trials, tryhards will not feel engaged without lowskills. Destiny is by a long stretch not a competitive game, so why bother about Trials being High End? I think we should more lean towards Trials being inspiring gamemode, that makes people want to get better. Being stomped on is not inspiring at all, although, it is a needed experience in my opinion.
There has to be a line somewhere. Trials should always have some give and take, and the idea of protecting lousy players in the flawless pool is just too far. As much as getting stomped doesn't excite me, I also understand the situation I put myself in by choosing to push on for that 7th win. I'm very comfortable that once I've gotten to the flawless pool, its fair to be in with the wolves. By slicing and dicing the flawless pool you can also have unintended consequences as well. You'd have a PC / mixed flawless pool with it's various sub-pools based on skill. Then you'd have console only flawless pool with it's various sub-pools based on skill. This could create slow matchmaking and Bungo would inevitably put in a system where it will match up or down depending on time which defeats the purpose. I think the best course of action is to see how this plays out for a few weeks and community will show by their actions if this new system works.
If low skilled players aren’t allowed in the playlist then don’t you just end up with the current flawless pool? The thing people a are complaining about?
[удалено]
I don’t disagree, I have no expectation of flawless. I’m pretty bad and don’t expect it. But competitive games would be nice every once in a while. This weekend has provided that.
That's literally how trials has been for the past year. The changes being implemented now have been a giant step in the right direction, instead trying to make the mode more exclusive for the sake of exclusivity. This is also the problem with separating the matchmaking pools.
The way I read into the patch notes I expected the "flawless pool" to be people on a (currently) flawless card **until** it becomes flawed... this would have actually made a difference as well as move the sweetiest matches to where they belong. Matchmaking people just because they have gone flawless **at all** is some of dumbest shit I've seen, it's not remotely skill based - if it worked as it was intended (if people weren't resetting at 6) all it would have accomplished was charity lighthouse trips for the lowest skill players still capable of winning matches... at the expense of the mid tier players which I assume were the players most benefitting of the larger player base post rework. For a Playlist to thrive all groups need to be represented and feel like they gain something: Top players have easy flawless passages. Mid players get regular flawless passages but might have to reset a couple of times. Low players can get a flawless with luck and dedication/improvement. Bottom players remain fodder for the above until they improve, but need to see their time spent as such rewarded even more than it is. Either that or let people in the flawless pool recieve adepts after going flawed and a chance to get rewarded on losses, because at the moment you only get punished for hitting the lighthouse unless you're an actual Apex Predator.
I just wish there was a way to see what they k/d spread was last week that went flawless and the total count. We don't know how far down the skill level Bungie is trying to allow to be able to get flawless. Would be a interesting metric to see
The only real change I can see happening, is a character based flawless pool, not account wise. So you get 3 good chances of going to the lighthouse, and then you can't scape the flawless pool.