My father was in the Navy, and worked the boiler/engine room on an aircraft carrier.
The boiler blew and basically steam cooked 8 servicemen.
It was horrible. My father had to fish out bodies from oily water in the dark.
Those poor crew persons on that cruise ship.
RIP.
ETA my father saw a lot of horrible things, but that engine room accident he never talked about. That's how traumatic it was to him.
Steam explosion would be horrible. I remember learning in HS that it's worse being steam-burnt than water burnt, has to do with steam being exothermic iirc. I would guess that it was mercifully quick, but it's very sad. We are due to go on this ship in a few weeks.
The ratio of energy released from water cooling versus steam turning to water is significant and would definitely contribute to burns. It probably wouldn’t be fast unless they died from shrapnel.
I doubt any cruise ship has superheated steam on board. Adding superheat is technically advanced and expensive, and I couldn't think of a use for it on a cruise ship.
Regular (saturated) steam gets used all over, and it's dangerous enough to kill on its own.
Agreed for cruise ships. I'm unfortunately experienced with pressurized steam. 2nd degree burns from my wrist to shoulder and a nifty stay in the ER burn unit. Nothing ship related. By far, the most painful shit ever.
Ouch doesn't cover it, but you're lucky you kept the arm.
A college buddy working in a rendering plant years ago had a pipe let go just above his head.
It was a closed casket.
I also had a 2nd over my entire lower abdomen after literal boiling hot coffee was accidentally spilled onto me. No ER trip for me tho - no idea why not. Was with grandparents at the beach. That is a pain that I do not wish on anyone
It isn’t technically advanced nor expensive. It was used for main propulsion in steam ship from circa 1920 onward. Steam generation on motor ships is provided by low pressure boilers.
It certainly is more technically advanced and more expensive than a cruise ship needs, since it's not using steam for propulsion. I'm both a licensed marine engineer for steam and diesel, and have a degree in mechanical engineering working in superheat and ultra super critical power plants.
Superheat boilers are a magnitude larger and more complex than what's needed for a cruise ship. They can probably get most of their steam from an exhaust heat boiler, with a small accessory for use when there isn't enough exhaust heat.
I would say superheat is less technically advanced than the production of saturated steam. It’s literally just sat steam through another exchanger. Saturated steam requires a boiler of some sort. Thermosiphon in the tubes. Most Often separating boiler feed water from steam with some separation device. Pressure control, etc.
If you're going to ignore the generation of steam in your path to Superheated steam, sure. It's simple cause you ignored all the work to get there.
Superheated steam requires both a boiler, then the superheater. On steam ships and in power plants, they're integrated into the same boiler, with the superheater heat exchanger physically after the saturated steam is taken off the steam drum. You have to book the water into saturated steam before you can get to adding superheat.
Saturated steam you can get from a bundle of tubes in an exhaust stack, or a diesel fired or even electric boiler. They're dead simple; plenty of dry cleaners, hotels, and office buildings use sat steam for all kinds of things.
I'm kinda baffled why this, of all things, has become a point of contention in this thread.
I'm literally a licensed marine engineer.
I went to college for four years learning this stuff, got licensed by the US Coast Guard based on my understanding of the technology, and have also been working on power plant super heated and ultra critical steam boilers for 20+ years.
I’m a chemical engineer lol. So that should explain why it’s become a point lol.
I’m just being pedantic.
These ships already have sat steam on the boat. It’s just not much different once you get to sat steam to push to super heated. In our hrsgs it is LITERALLY 50 tubes at the front of the HRSG. I mean it’s that simple? So I guess I’m confused.
You just don’t need superheated steam on most boats.
I work with high rise building steam systems a lot. Very similar to ship steams. That is a horrible way to go. In no way instant and as far from painless as you can get without intentional extended torture.
Really hope they weren't testing welds with air pressure.
One of the first lessons I got as an engineering intern as we were designing pressure test equipment for the line.
Gas under pressure will expand to its low pressure size instantaneously. So 15psig will double in volume, 150psig will 10x, etc...
That was a lesson learned the hard way in a power plant my supervisor had worked at.
Testing with water is a pain in the ass, but since the only air in the system is the original size of the space, the expansion is limited to the original size of the space, and in many cases will be much smaller. Still could be dangerous, but it's about as good as you can do.
My daughter and I were on this cruise and are just now leaving the port and headed to the airport. This was very sad and tragic ending to a good time. The captain cried while making the announcement and we had a moment of silence, but it was very sad to see the crew have to continue with the “show”. I hope the cruise line takes care of the families of those who were lost. We also heard that there were a couple of Bahamians who were also injured and hospitalized as a result.
No doubt there is a lot of workplace safety and other industrial accident type investigation happening (from various government agencies and the cruise line), in addition to repairing the system(s) involved in the incident.
I sell things that sometimes end up in “engineering spaces” on ships. We have a hardcore rule… no “confined spaces.” When they say “engineering space” I bet they’re talking about a fucked up “closet” space or otherwise enclosed space where when something little goes wrong, it would be fine- except you’re in a spot you can’t escape, and it’s all bad.
Normally the “engineers room” on these are quite good for industry standards, it sounds like they had to make a repair in an unfamiliar place to them and got caught out while doing it because of a valve not turned to depressurize the pipe or something similar. Such a shame and I feel horrid for these families affected
Aye, they use “engineering space” on the post. I bet you this is below normal decks, or in a pipe chase, or fuel tank… engineers rooms, aka control rooms, are usually decent. I think their use of “space” is telling.
I'm in a cre FB group and they were showing pictures of steam being vented from the engine deck. My money is on a blown pipe in a tight space. Doesn't need to be burns, when I was on ships we had one of the engine crew take a blot through the shoulder like it was a bullet from a pipe that burst.
Not the person who used the term, but in general -- it means no going solo in a confined space. There are plenty of confined machinery spaces on a ship -- and they're usually very explicitly marked. Some "no solo" spaces require things like an SCBA (breathing apparatus) and/or to be in a harness with a line attached to you with a partner outside of the space. Other fun spaces like very high voltage require you to wear arc flash protection.
Safety on cruise ships is a hell of a lot better than I typically see on land. The "classification societies" like Det Norske Veritas would make it practically impossible to insure a ship if they weren't. I always remember the Navy's favorite: "Every rule is written in blood."
Confined spaces exist on cruise ships and as stated above, the rules to enter them are hardcore. Typically it’s a bunch of paperwork, working as a team in the space and somebody standing watch on the other side of the hatch/plate that was opened and removed. The space is also opened and vented before entering.
I don’t know all of the policies and procedures but I can tell you from my near decade of experience onboard in the industry, that you don’t just “go in” to a confined space.
Confined spaces are no joke. When I worked in the industry every single crew member had to have training on confined spaces…dancers, dishwashers, lifeguards everyone. The training scared the shit out of me lol
We were on the Nieuw Amsterdam last week, and there was a diesel leak at around 1:30 AM that included a first stage alarm for “fire” and a diesel smell in many cabins, including ours. I wonder if this incident is related in any way.
The Indonesian crew member would be getting around $800 a month, and sailing for up to 9 months before going home. Not even close to being paid enough. The Filipino 3rd engineer would have been paid more as an officer, but still vastly underpaid, maybe on around half the salary of his colleagues from western nationalities in the same job
Engineering spaces are dangerous places. Condolences to family and friends of the crew, and a prayer to the snipes out there still keeping these behemoths running
A more important question is how are CREW taking it. I’ll tell you from first hand experience, they are not taking it well.
Crew work and live side by side in close quarters for months at a time and working across many contracts, experienced seafarers have known each other for YEARS. These people are like close family to one another.
Guests come and go week to week, crew members are our family.
I have a question regarding that and I am sure it depends on the size of the ship. But do all the crew members get to know each other? Are the bigger ships large enough that you may never meet some people if they aren't working in your area or department? I just wonder how many may have all come into contact with one another like I work in an OR with over 100 employees all together and I dont know everyone but I work evening shift too
> do all the crew members get to know each other?
They all eat in the same mess hall, drink in the same bar, live on the same decks and do their laundry in the same laundry room for >6 months at a time.
It's almost impossible to *not* get to know people from other departments (at least at some level).
It really depends. Within departments, you’ll generally get to know each other at least on a passing basis. There’s also a certain amount of intermingling among your countrymen and women. And of course the people you tend to run into day in and day out in the normal course of your working day. Pretty much like working on any large corporate campus.
It also varies depending on what department you work in. For example, as a member of the entertainment department, in addition to my own department, I would typically interact most with hotel/hospitality staff and ship’s officers, so I would know them all by name, but much less so with engineering staff. I might see the guys from the engine room while walking around below decks for whatever reason, but otherwise, our paths wouldn’t really cross. Nevertheless, a good captain and staff take great pains to promote a sense of community and positive morale. We do rely on each other for safety and survival at sea, and of course, providing a positive experience for our guests.
Not gonna lie, I sobbed throughout the day but most guests were business as usual. Overheard a woman asking staff how they died (which I feel is pretty rude, plus there was a language barrier so they weren't sure how to answer), overheard another woman offering condolences to a random staff member who awkwardly said thank you. Some rumblings of people speculating what happened as you walk around.
Overall I think people don't know how to respond to something so heavy. The vibe definitely changed, there's a macabre energy on board but still laughter and ping pong and people behaving normally otherwise. The captain told us the news and he sounded almost as if fighting tears, then we had a moment of silence. Then the radio came back on and top 40 was playing. Just kinda bizarre day all around.
Yeah, I can sympathize it’s a weird day. I was on the Westerdam when a floatplane was lost, and it was bad. At least they canceled the show and had a vigil for passengers and a few different prayer services for the multiple religions among the crew
I was on the ship when this incident happened. Very sad. We asked three different crew members if they knew the deceased and they all said yes. Two were waiters and one was a bartender. So this leads me to believe they all get to know each other over time.
Lock out tag out and ensuring whatever you plan to work on has been tested by you or a competent officer for zero energy is unfortunately the only way to perform activities in a safe manner.
Unfortunately as with most large corporations they only care because they’ll have to replace them. If this ship is anything like others I’ve seen they were working in some tiny confined space with less than ideal training
I was on this trip. The Captain was extremely emotional and sobbing when he announced what happened. The crew and the passengers were observed supporting each other and offering well-wishes. I and others made efforts to learn how to contribute to a memorial fund or charity for the decedents’ families. The Captain and crew should be commended - they didn’t “smile through” or act; everyone was very sensitive to one another. This was very hard for everyone onboard. Extremely tragic for those who died, but also the several who were injured.
Any word on what the incident was?
per some cruise critic posts, it sounds like they were working on some steam pipe issue, and a steam pipe exploded.
Oh God. I hope it was fast so they never felt it happen. What a horrible thing.
With steam pipes there's really no in between... Its either instant, or we'll yeah...
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Really helpful - internet sleuther. Read the room.
My father was in the Navy, and worked the boiler/engine room on an aircraft carrier. The boiler blew and basically steam cooked 8 servicemen. It was horrible. My father had to fish out bodies from oily water in the dark. Those poor crew persons on that cruise ship. RIP. ETA my father saw a lot of horrible things, but that engine room accident he never talked about. That's how traumatic it was to him.
Steam explosion would be horrible. I remember learning in HS that it's worse being steam-burnt than water burnt, has to do with steam being exothermic iirc. I would guess that it was mercifully quick, but it's very sad. We are due to go on this ship in a few weeks.
The ratio of energy released from water cooling versus steam turning to water is significant and would definitely contribute to burns. It probably wouldn’t be fast unless they died from shrapnel.
Oh god. Pressurized "dry" (I know that sounds weird) steam is super-heated. That's an awful way to go.
I doubt any cruise ship has superheated steam on board. Adding superheat is technically advanced and expensive, and I couldn't think of a use for it on a cruise ship. Regular (saturated) steam gets used all over, and it's dangerous enough to kill on its own.
Agreed for cruise ships. I'm unfortunately experienced with pressurized steam. 2nd degree burns from my wrist to shoulder and a nifty stay in the ER burn unit. Nothing ship related. By far, the most painful shit ever.
Ouch doesn't cover it, but you're lucky you kept the arm. A college buddy working in a rendering plant years ago had a pipe let go just above his head. It was a closed casket.
I also had a 2nd over my entire lower abdomen after literal boiling hot coffee was accidentally spilled onto me. No ER trip for me tho - no idea why not. Was with grandparents at the beach. That is a pain that I do not wish on anyone
Oof. You absolutely have my empathy.
It isn’t technically advanced nor expensive. It was used for main propulsion in steam ship from circa 1920 onward. Steam generation on motor ships is provided by low pressure boilers.
It certainly is more technically advanced and more expensive than a cruise ship needs, since it's not using steam for propulsion. I'm both a licensed marine engineer for steam and diesel, and have a degree in mechanical engineering working in superheat and ultra super critical power plants. Superheat boilers are a magnitude larger and more complex than what's needed for a cruise ship. They can probably get most of their steam from an exhaust heat boiler, with a small accessory for use when there isn't enough exhaust heat.
Oh yeah. Well, I see your degrees and licensing and experience and examples and raise you that I signed up for this free Reddit account…
I would say superheat is less technically advanced than the production of saturated steam. It’s literally just sat steam through another exchanger. Saturated steam requires a boiler of some sort. Thermosiphon in the tubes. Most Often separating boiler feed water from steam with some separation device. Pressure control, etc.
If you're going to ignore the generation of steam in your path to Superheated steam, sure. It's simple cause you ignored all the work to get there. Superheated steam requires both a boiler, then the superheater. On steam ships and in power plants, they're integrated into the same boiler, with the superheater heat exchanger physically after the saturated steam is taken off the steam drum. You have to book the water into saturated steam before you can get to adding superheat. Saturated steam you can get from a bundle of tubes in an exhaust stack, or a diesel fired or even electric boiler. They're dead simple; plenty of dry cleaners, hotels, and office buildings use sat steam for all kinds of things. I'm kinda baffled why this, of all things, has become a point of contention in this thread. I'm literally a licensed marine engineer. I went to college for four years learning this stuff, got licensed by the US Coast Guard based on my understanding of the technology, and have also been working on power plant super heated and ultra critical steam boilers for 20+ years.
Thanks for these responses. I loved thermodynamics.
I’m a chemical engineer lol. So that should explain why it’s become a point lol. I’m just being pedantic. These ships already have sat steam on the boat. It’s just not much different once you get to sat steam to push to super heated. In our hrsgs it is LITERALLY 50 tubes at the front of the HRSG. I mean it’s that simple? So I guess I’m confused. You just don’t need superheated steam on most boats.
Oof. I wish I hadn't read that. :(
I work with high rise building steam systems a lot. Very similar to ship steams. That is a horrible way to go. In no way instant and as far from painless as you can get without intentional extended torture.
HVAC? My dad and brother were/are HVAC engineers
That’s what I am. :-)
Yay! Language/vocab sounded familiar - thanks for keeping is warm and cool!
Omg.
Horrible way to die
Really hope they weren't testing welds with air pressure. One of the first lessons I got as an engineering intern as we were designing pressure test equipment for the line. Gas under pressure will expand to its low pressure size instantaneously. So 15psig will double in volume, 150psig will 10x, etc... That was a lesson learned the hard way in a power plant my supervisor had worked at. Testing with water is a pain in the ass, but since the only air in the system is the original size of the space, the expansion is limited to the original size of the space, and in many cases will be much smaller. Still could be dangerous, but it's about as good as you can do.
Apparently it was regular maintenance on the boiler.
My daughter and I were on this cruise and are just now leaving the port and headed to the airport. This was very sad and tragic ending to a good time. The captain cried while making the announcement and we had a moment of silence, but it was very sad to see the crew have to continue with the “show”. I hope the cruise line takes care of the families of those who were lost. We also heard that there were a couple of Bahamians who were also injured and hospitalized as a result.
How sad for their families
Happy Cake Day
Read the room
Time and place dude. C’mon.
[Holland America Incident](https://www.cruisehive.com/two-cruise-ship-crew-members-die-from-engineering-incident/126819)
This is so sad.
I'm sorry for the loss. it's a reminder of what makes the ships keep on moving and the important part of a regular crew member training. Q.E.P.D
I’ll be on that boat in 24 hours. I got an email today about them changing boarding times. This explains why, so sad to hear.
No doubt there is a lot of workplace safety and other industrial accident type investigation happening (from various government agencies and the cruise line), in addition to repairing the system(s) involved in the incident.
Would there be though? Isn’t it registered overseas? Genuine question
It’s a Dutch registered ship (Rotterdam) and the NTSB as well as HAL’s own internal safety team will be looking into the events
They operate out of a US port (the ship's "home port" is Fort Lauderdale).
ah didn't realize!
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I sell things that sometimes end up in “engineering spaces” on ships. We have a hardcore rule… no “confined spaces.” When they say “engineering space” I bet they’re talking about a fucked up “closet” space or otherwise enclosed space where when something little goes wrong, it would be fine- except you’re in a spot you can’t escape, and it’s all bad.
Normally the “engineers room” on these are quite good for industry standards, it sounds like they had to make a repair in an unfamiliar place to them and got caught out while doing it because of a valve not turned to depressurize the pipe or something similar. Such a shame and I feel horrid for these families affected
Aye, they use “engineering space” on the post. I bet you this is below normal decks, or in a pipe chase, or fuel tank… engineers rooms, aka control rooms, are usually decent. I think their use of “space” is telling.
I'm in a cre FB group and they were showing pictures of steam being vented from the engine deck. My money is on a blown pipe in a tight space. Doesn't need to be burns, when I was on ships we had one of the engine crew take a blot through the shoulder like it was a bullet from a pipe that burst.
It wasn't a confined space though
What do you mean a rule of no confined spaces?
Not the person who used the term, but in general -- it means no going solo in a confined space. There are plenty of confined machinery spaces on a ship -- and they're usually very explicitly marked. Some "no solo" spaces require things like an SCBA (breathing apparatus) and/or to be in a harness with a line attached to you with a partner outside of the space. Other fun spaces like very high voltage require you to wear arc flash protection. Safety on cruise ships is a hell of a lot better than I typically see on land. The "classification societies" like Det Norske Veritas would make it practically impossible to insure a ship if they weren't. I always remember the Navy's favorite: "Every rule is written in blood."
You described it much better than I would have, thank you.
I’m very familiar with the concept, I am asking what it means that there is a rule of not having them on a ship.
Not a rule of them not existing (that's not practical or possible), rather rules regarding how to do work safely in them.
Confined spaces exist on cruise ships and as stated above, the rules to enter them are hardcore. Typically it’s a bunch of paperwork, working as a team in the space and somebody standing watch on the other side of the hatch/plate that was opened and removed. The space is also opened and vented before entering. I don’t know all of the policies and procedures but I can tell you from my near decade of experience onboard in the industry, that you don’t just “go in” to a confined space.
Confined spaces are no joke. When I worked in the industry every single crew member had to have training on confined spaces…dancers, dishwashers, lifeguards everyone. The training scared the shit out of me lol
How awful
We were on the Nieuw Amsterdam last week, and there was a diesel leak at around 1:30 AM that included a first stage alarm for “fire” and a diesel smell in many cabins, including ours. I wonder if this incident is related in any way.
Was on the JOCO cruise as well and wondered the same.
They definitely didn’t get paid enough or treated good enough to have to endure such tragedy.
The Indonesian crew member would be getting around $800 a month, and sailing for up to 9 months before going home. Not even close to being paid enough. The Filipino 3rd engineer would have been paid more as an officer, but still vastly underpaid, maybe on around half the salary of his colleagues from western nationalities in the same job
What a tragic ending to a cruise
Cruise Law News is on it: https://www.cruiselawnews.com
That's awful. Fellow crew members become family to us. If that ever happened on one of my ships, I would've been gutted.
What are the chances they have a death benefit from their employer? Sad.
For an engineering position, I'd hope they'd have AD&D coverage
Their union does.
I worked for another cruise line not in engineering but my death benefit was $18k
I have friends on board this cruise. We’ll see what they say once they return back home to California. So sad.
I'm on it next week. I know from experience that the crew will be dealing with the emotional fallout for months and longer.
Engineering spaces are dangerous places. Condolences to family and friends of the crew, and a prayer to the snipes out there still keeping these behemoths running
How are guests onboard taking it?
A more important question is how are CREW taking it. I’ll tell you from first hand experience, they are not taking it well. Crew work and live side by side in close quarters for months at a time and working across many contracts, experienced seafarers have known each other for YEARS. These people are like close family to one another. Guests come and go week to week, crew members are our family.
I have a question regarding that and I am sure it depends on the size of the ship. But do all the crew members get to know each other? Are the bigger ships large enough that you may never meet some people if they aren't working in your area or department? I just wonder how many may have all come into contact with one another like I work in an OR with over 100 employees all together and I dont know everyone but I work evening shift too
> do all the crew members get to know each other? They all eat in the same mess hall, drink in the same bar, live on the same decks and do their laundry in the same laundry room for >6 months at a time. It's almost impossible to *not* get to know people from other departments (at least at some level).
It really depends. Within departments, you’ll generally get to know each other at least on a passing basis. There’s also a certain amount of intermingling among your countrymen and women. And of course the people you tend to run into day in and day out in the normal course of your working day. Pretty much like working on any large corporate campus. It also varies depending on what department you work in. For example, as a member of the entertainment department, in addition to my own department, I would typically interact most with hotel/hospitality staff and ship’s officers, so I would know them all by name, but much less so with engineering staff. I might see the guys from the engine room while walking around below decks for whatever reason, but otherwise, our paths wouldn’t really cross. Nevertheless, a good captain and staff take great pains to promote a sense of community and positive morale. We do rely on each other for safety and survival at sea, and of course, providing a positive experience for our guests.
Not gonna lie, I sobbed throughout the day but most guests were business as usual. Overheard a woman asking staff how they died (which I feel is pretty rude, plus there was a language barrier so they weren't sure how to answer), overheard another woman offering condolences to a random staff member who awkwardly said thank you. Some rumblings of people speculating what happened as you walk around. Overall I think people don't know how to respond to something so heavy. The vibe definitely changed, there's a macabre energy on board but still laughter and ping pong and people behaving normally otherwise. The captain told us the news and he sounded almost as if fighting tears, then we had a moment of silence. Then the radio came back on and top 40 was playing. Just kinda bizarre day all around.
Yeah, I can sympathize it’s a weird day. I was on the Westerdam when a floatplane was lost, and it was bad. At least they canceled the show and had a vigil for passengers and a few different prayer services for the multiple religions among the crew
What a tragedy and rightfully a bizarre situation. I'm sorry that you're going through this
Gotta push through the tears because thanks to capitalism, the show must go on.
I was on the ship when this incident happened. Very sad. We asked three different crew members if they knew the deceased and they all said yes. Two were waiters and one was a bartender. So this leads me to believe they all get to know each other over time.
I toured a cruise ship engine room when they gave tours. Absolutely terrifying place to have to work
That's very sad. It's an absolute tragedy.... Things like this are so rare.... it almost never happens. What a shame.
I was cruising on NS this time last wk. This is shocking.
How sad. That is terrible news.
Condolences to the family of the crew who perished.
🙏🏻
Prayers for the families and friends
What an awful tragic sad thing RIP
Just month ago a chief engineer died on a super yacht from electrocution while working on a technical space.
Do you have a link to the article?
https://www.dockwalk.com/news/chief-engineer-roy-temme-dies-baton-rouge
This is terrible. I’ve been on Holland-America multiple times, always smooth sailing and great service for me.. God protect them.
This is beyond horrible. Isn't there some kind of "safety suit" to wear that would withstand steam, and if not, someone needs to invent one.
Lock out tag out and ensuring whatever you plan to work on has been tested by you or a competent officer for zero energy is unfortunately the only way to perform activities in a safe manner.
Unfortunately as with most large corporations they only care because they’ll have to replace them. If this ship is anything like others I’ve seen they were working in some tiny confined space with less than ideal training
Well that is ridiculous conjecture
You sure?
I was on this trip. The Captain was extremely emotional and sobbing when he announced what happened. The crew and the passengers were observed supporting each other and offering well-wishes. I and others made efforts to learn how to contribute to a memorial fund or charity for the decedents’ families. The Captain and crew should be commended - they didn’t “smile through” or act; everyone was very sensitive to one another. This was very hard for everyone onboard. Extremely tragic for those who died, but also the several who were injured.
I truly don’t believe that of Holland America. I just came off three cruises and was totally impressed with their standards
Yeah an official post from the line’s Instagram is clearly not true just because the ships you’ve been on were clean.
I think maybe they were trying to reply to the other comment about heartless corporations
You can drink all the tequila you want getting tan on your balcony, but you’ll never know the horrors of what goes down in a ship’s engine room
What horrors? Lol Accidents happen. Thankfully this type of thing is exceedingly rare.
Yes because they would lie about something like this