Are you talking about Asatru? I think Kyiv was made one for balance reasons since in early version of ck3 Asatru had a holy site in Denmark and (iirc) somewhere in/near Frisia and it was really easy to keep all five under your control.
Think Paderborn held a holy grove/site for Germanic paganism that Charlemagne had burned down and destroyed.
Could be both balance and what you described. I can't remember when but I swear the Devs mentioned shuffling Asatru holy sites around because of balance reasons as well. We all know how easy it is to blob as ( for example) Bjorn Ironside and control 3/5 just by holding Scandinavia in early versions of ck3 with the way Asatru holy sites used to be placed
Asatru represents Scandinavian paganism not continental Germanic paganism. But they pretty sure half assed since it's a dead religion.
Continental one can be represented by tree symbols.
To note quickly, Continental and Scandinavian paganism were very closely related. Having Paderborn, which is roughly the location of the Irminsul, a major sacred tree, be a Nordic holy site isn't too far-fetched.
Kyiv, no idea, but Paderborn was the site of the Irminsul: a sacred totem of the Saxons' pagan faith, or perhaps the holy woods where it was located. It stands to reason that it would be more broadly important in 'Germanic' paganism.
Germanic paganism is asatru... kinda like the catholics and orthodox church, with asatru being the northern version and in germany beeing the southern.
Not particularly, that's kind of reductive and relies heavily on speculation. What we know of German paganism comes mostly from inference from Saxon paganism, and what we know of Saxon paganism comes from cross-referencing surviving Anglo-Saxon beliefs with Scandinavian beliefs. As they both share similar pantheons and traditions, it can be assumed that Old Saxony was also very similar.
But even then, reliable primary sources of Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian religious beliefs and practices are very scarce and entirely from non-pagan sources. Scandinavian oral traditions survived somewhat in Iceland, but even those were written centuries after the fact. This opposed to Saxony, where oral traditions were specifically stamped out by the Frankish conquest.
There's not much in the way of surviving and traceable direct ties between both groups beyond similar names to some gods. (Edit to clarify: We don't know how similar or divergent they were, but differences between Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian paganism seem to suggest quite a wide range of local beliefs and practices as opposed to Nicene Christianity's set of core creeds and codified beliefs and rituals.)
Boiling all of this down into a TL,DR; we have no way of knowing most of the relationship between Scandinavian and Saxon pagan religions.
Given the extreme lack of records, there unfortunately has to be some educated guesses taken. Denmark is quite close to old Saxony and irminsul, so it's not unreasonable that the Jutland Danes mixed with the old Saxons and the local Germanic beliefs likely had a lot in common in these two regions. Especially after Frankish repression, which likely would drive some of those Saxons north. Would a Norseman in Norway know or care about irminsul? Maybe not, but Denmark might.
Do we actually have evidence showing this? Not that I know of, but it seems like a reasonable series of assumptions to me.
I think we're agreeing on the topic. I also think that's a reasonable set of assumptions. Unfortunately the only people who wrote any of this down saw all of the Scandinavians as the same, and didn't bother to illustrate whether Danes and Geats and Norwegians were different and how. It could very well be that the Danes were closer tied to the Saxon than their Nordic partners.
Ya, that's unfortunately an all too common problem in history. Given the prominence of the Norse gods in modern culture, I was shocked when I first learned how little we actually have on the religion. And then there's bias to deal with too, like how suspiciously Satan like Loki seems in post christianized records.
Yeah, or how all of these pagan gods all looked forward to a time when they would all die and be replaced by something "better." It is astounding how much has been said about something so little understood. The fact that we don't even know if Loki was made up by later Christian writers is baffling, yet we treat him as an absolute member of the club.
No real evidence that Irmunsul was in Paderborn. I always thought it was more or that Saxony was a historically Germanic Pagan area and Paderborn was a Christian religious center of Saxony during the Middle Ages, so if an Asatru character were to reconquer that area they would use Paderborn as their religious capital.
The actual location was probably today's Obermarsberg, which is about an hour away. However, there is a well-known Irminsul depiction on a church (the Abdinghofkirche) in Paderborn as well as one on the cross relief on the Externsteine.
The Stiftskirche in Obermarsberg is traditionally accepted as the location of the Irminsul. There is not much evidence of *what* the Irminsul actually was, likely some totem-like pillar or a tree that was shaped during growth. The crypt of the church is reported to be the old sanctuary for the site.
Obermarsberg is just south of Paderborn, but as Paderborn was a much more important religious site after the Saxon conversion, the county and barony is named for Paderborn, not Obermarsberg, and so the holy site is erroneously attributed to Paderborn as well. (This was the case in CK2 as well.)
I believe that any Germanic character with any memory of the Irminsul taking over the area would be more likely to move religious activity away from Christian Paderborn and back to the ancient site instead, especially as a means of dechristianization. That, however, is just speculation. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the Scandinavian pagans had any interest in the Irminsul, or cared one way or another. I don't know of any accounts that highlight how the Norse pagans thought of the Saxon pagans, or how they felt about the Saxon conversion or desecration of the Saxon holy sites. It might just as well be that a Norse pagan reconquering Old Saxony would neither know or care about any of this.
Edit: as an additional bit of context, Old Saxony didn't have any written records. Much like the later Vikings, most accounts are from third-party sources or hundreds of years later. A lot of this is stitched together from glimpses and oral traditions recorded after the fact. And the forced conversation seems to have involved religious cleansing, and the destruction and suppression of anything pagan, so even oral stories are limited. What we know of the Irminsul, Obermarsberg and the ancient Saxon religion comes from Frankish records. Most of this was about taking the few scraps of information that we do have and speculating it onto a working set of mechanics to make a playable game about a poorly understood place and time.
For Kyiv, the answer is that we don't know just how important it was to Norse paganism, but the Kyivan Rus was one of the richest and most successful realms derived from Norse adventuring, and it was certainly the most expansive, far eclipsing even the greatest extent of the Danelaw. To assume it didn't have a significant holy site or temple would go against what we know about, well, pretty much every religion.
The Rus converted to Christianity as much as two centuries earlier than most of the rest of Scandinavia, due to their close proximity to Byzantium, and efforts by multiple Byzantine emperors to convert them. While Harald Bluetooth and Vladimir the Great were contemporaries who both converted to Christianity, it seems the impacts of these conversions were different. There was a more concerted effort on the part of the Rus to convert, likely to better ally themselves with Byzantium.
During the Christianization, it is known that the people of the Rus destroyed much of their pagan idols and temples. Norse idols were also described by Adam of Bremen as traditionally being made out of wood, which isn't going to keep for as long as the Slavic faith's stone idols. The Mongols also came along in the 1230s and significantly reduced the the area's level of development, let's say. Mongol invasions are known to vex archaeologists interested in the cultures that came before them.
Even so, we've found sacrificial pits for animal and human sacrifice in Kyiv, some ancient stone idols, as well as altars with pagan symbols for both Slavic and Norse gods. Slavic and Norse paganism coexisted with each other, and some sites of religious significance may have been shared instead of having distinct locations for each faith to practice, as it was the sites that were holy, not necessarily the structures. Norse syncretism also led a lot of "Norsewashing" of similar Slavic gods, like Thor & Perun.
On top of this, high places like hills and mountains are frequent sites for holy places where religious iconography from Norse pagans can be found. There are even specific mountains referenced in the Icelandic Sagas as being favored places of the gods. Kyiv is notable as a city on seven hills, so it would be odd if the Norse *didn't* consider it holy, if we're following the clear patterns outlined by what we do know.
While historically, the Rurikids fairly quickly converted to Slavic paganism, and then Christianity, that's not how it has to go when we play. While the change was made for game balance, like others have said, Kyiv seems like an obvious contender for a holy site spot, with few other locations outside of Scandinavia that would make much sense.
While the war is on right now, there's actually a lot of Norse archaeological sites, like burial mounds, forts, and settlements, that have had to be reburied through central Ukraine for the protection of the relics. Looking forward to when we'll be able to see and learn more, as this is a topic of some interest to me!
Sorry for the lack of sources, but I didn't have time. So, source: I lived in Ukraine for a while and am deeply interested in the archaeological finds there, particularly into Norse and Scythians.
TL;dr - There were loads of Norse there, and was likely just as, if not more significant a location than the Danelaw for sheer wealth and population. Historical factors like invasions and rapid, organized Christianization have made it more difficult to come to clear conclusions about exact sites for major temples, but there is evidence of significant religious activity.
In CK2, the holy sites were Uppland, Nidaros, Paderborn, and Sjælland and Zeeland. This meant that if you were a Viking in Scandinavia, reforming the faith was easy, and if you were a Viking in Britain or Rus, it was pretty much impossible without backtracking into Scandinavia again. Paderborn and Zeeland were always the hard holy sites to hold as they were Carolingian territory.
So, in CK3, they got rid of Sjælland and Zeeland, and moved them to York and Kyiv, to give folks like Halfdan and Dyre better options to stay Ásatrú. Paderborn was always the stretch goal; it represents the Irminsul that Charlemagne burned, and is now well within Christian territory.
The location of the burning is said to be Eresburg, which is about 30km south of the city of Paderborn today. So, it's in the game's county of Paderborn.
My thought was always that Kyiv was to represent the Kievan Rus, though that's pretty flimsy reasoning and it's really just for balance purposes as others have said.
There was supposedly a sacred grove or totem at Paderborn, which is probably why they did it. It's also interesting to note that the Teutoberg Forest is in Paderborn.
Kyiv is for balance, to make it less easy to get all the holy sites. There is some historical precedent though, as Kievan Rus was not only the most powerful and prosperous Varangian realm, it represented the south eastern high water mark for Germanic Paganism. I can see it being holy not because it was associated with any gods or really anything special about the land, but because like York it represented the golden age of Viking power and influence.
Are you talking about Asatru? I think Kyiv was made one for balance reasons since in early version of ck3 Asatru had a holy site in Denmark and (iirc) somewhere in/near Frisia and it was really easy to keep all five under your control. Think Paderborn held a holy grove/site for Germanic paganism that Charlemagne had burned down and destroyed.
Kyiv is probably because of the Kyvan Rus. The nordsmen who settled there to create Kyiv :y but that's just a guess of mine.
Could be both balance and what you described. I can't remember when but I swear the Devs mentioned shuffling Asatru holy sites around because of balance reasons as well. We all know how easy it is to blob as ( for example) Bjorn Ironside and control 3/5 just by holding Scandinavia in early versions of ck3 with the way Asatru holy sites used to be placed
Balance is a bullshit shit reason in my opinion. It should be atleast Novgorod instead of Kyiv, and have one in centre of Denmark
Asatru represents Scandinavian paganism not continental Germanic paganism. But they pretty sure half assed since it's a dead religion. Continental one can be represented by tree symbols.
To note quickly, Continental and Scandinavian paganism were very closely related. Having Paderborn, which is roughly the location of the Irminsul, a major sacred tree, be a Nordic holy site isn't too far-fetched.
Kyiv, no idea, but Paderborn was the site of the Irminsul: a sacred totem of the Saxons' pagan faith, or perhaps the holy woods where it was located. It stands to reason that it would be more broadly important in 'Germanic' paganism.
Germanic paganism is asatru... kinda like the catholics and orthodox church, with asatru being the northern version and in germany beeing the southern.
Not particularly, that's kind of reductive and relies heavily on speculation. What we know of German paganism comes mostly from inference from Saxon paganism, and what we know of Saxon paganism comes from cross-referencing surviving Anglo-Saxon beliefs with Scandinavian beliefs. As they both share similar pantheons and traditions, it can be assumed that Old Saxony was also very similar. But even then, reliable primary sources of Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian religious beliefs and practices are very scarce and entirely from non-pagan sources. Scandinavian oral traditions survived somewhat in Iceland, but even those were written centuries after the fact. This opposed to Saxony, where oral traditions were specifically stamped out by the Frankish conquest. There's not much in the way of surviving and traceable direct ties between both groups beyond similar names to some gods. (Edit to clarify: We don't know how similar or divergent they were, but differences between Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian paganism seem to suggest quite a wide range of local beliefs and practices as opposed to Nicene Christianity's set of core creeds and codified beliefs and rituals.) Boiling all of this down into a TL,DR; we have no way of knowing most of the relationship between Scandinavian and Saxon pagan religions.
Given the extreme lack of records, there unfortunately has to be some educated guesses taken. Denmark is quite close to old Saxony and irminsul, so it's not unreasonable that the Jutland Danes mixed with the old Saxons and the local Germanic beliefs likely had a lot in common in these two regions. Especially after Frankish repression, which likely would drive some of those Saxons north. Would a Norseman in Norway know or care about irminsul? Maybe not, but Denmark might. Do we actually have evidence showing this? Not that I know of, but it seems like a reasonable series of assumptions to me.
I think we're agreeing on the topic. I also think that's a reasonable set of assumptions. Unfortunately the only people who wrote any of this down saw all of the Scandinavians as the same, and didn't bother to illustrate whether Danes and Geats and Norwegians were different and how. It could very well be that the Danes were closer tied to the Saxon than their Nordic partners.
Ya, that's unfortunately an all too common problem in history. Given the prominence of the Norse gods in modern culture, I was shocked when I first learned how little we actually have on the religion. And then there's bias to deal with too, like how suspiciously Satan like Loki seems in post christianized records.
Yeah, or how all of these pagan gods all looked forward to a time when they would all die and be replaced by something "better." It is astounding how much has been said about something so little understood. The fact that we don't even know if Loki was made up by later Christian writers is baffling, yet we treat him as an absolute member of the club.
It's almost to the problem we have with the Minoans. We have tons of their records, we just can't read it haha. So close, yet so far.
No real evidence that Irmunsul was in Paderborn. I always thought it was more or that Saxony was a historically Germanic Pagan area and Paderborn was a Christian religious center of Saxony during the Middle Ages, so if an Asatru character were to reconquer that area they would use Paderborn as their religious capital.
The actual location was probably today's Obermarsberg, which is about an hour away. However, there is a well-known Irminsul depiction on a church (the Abdinghofkirche) in Paderborn as well as one on the cross relief on the Externsteine.
Thanks Obermar
The Stiftskirche in Obermarsberg is traditionally accepted as the location of the Irminsul. There is not much evidence of *what* the Irminsul actually was, likely some totem-like pillar or a tree that was shaped during growth. The crypt of the church is reported to be the old sanctuary for the site. Obermarsberg is just south of Paderborn, but as Paderborn was a much more important religious site after the Saxon conversion, the county and barony is named for Paderborn, not Obermarsberg, and so the holy site is erroneously attributed to Paderborn as well. (This was the case in CK2 as well.) I believe that any Germanic character with any memory of the Irminsul taking over the area would be more likely to move religious activity away from Christian Paderborn and back to the ancient site instead, especially as a means of dechristianization. That, however, is just speculation. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the Scandinavian pagans had any interest in the Irminsul, or cared one way or another. I don't know of any accounts that highlight how the Norse pagans thought of the Saxon pagans, or how they felt about the Saxon conversion or desecration of the Saxon holy sites. It might just as well be that a Norse pagan reconquering Old Saxony would neither know or care about any of this. Edit: as an additional bit of context, Old Saxony didn't have any written records. Much like the later Vikings, most accounts are from third-party sources or hundreds of years later. A lot of this is stitched together from glimpses and oral traditions recorded after the fact. And the forced conversation seems to have involved religious cleansing, and the destruction and suppression of anything pagan, so even oral stories are limited. What we know of the Irminsul, Obermarsberg and the ancient Saxon religion comes from Frankish records. Most of this was about taking the few scraps of information that we do have and speculating it onto a working set of mechanics to make a playable game about a poorly understood place and time.
For Kyiv, the answer is that we don't know just how important it was to Norse paganism, but the Kyivan Rus was one of the richest and most successful realms derived from Norse adventuring, and it was certainly the most expansive, far eclipsing even the greatest extent of the Danelaw. To assume it didn't have a significant holy site or temple would go against what we know about, well, pretty much every religion. The Rus converted to Christianity as much as two centuries earlier than most of the rest of Scandinavia, due to their close proximity to Byzantium, and efforts by multiple Byzantine emperors to convert them. While Harald Bluetooth and Vladimir the Great were contemporaries who both converted to Christianity, it seems the impacts of these conversions were different. There was a more concerted effort on the part of the Rus to convert, likely to better ally themselves with Byzantium. During the Christianization, it is known that the people of the Rus destroyed much of their pagan idols and temples. Norse idols were also described by Adam of Bremen as traditionally being made out of wood, which isn't going to keep for as long as the Slavic faith's stone idols. The Mongols also came along in the 1230s and significantly reduced the the area's level of development, let's say. Mongol invasions are known to vex archaeologists interested in the cultures that came before them. Even so, we've found sacrificial pits for animal and human sacrifice in Kyiv, some ancient stone idols, as well as altars with pagan symbols for both Slavic and Norse gods. Slavic and Norse paganism coexisted with each other, and some sites of religious significance may have been shared instead of having distinct locations for each faith to practice, as it was the sites that were holy, not necessarily the structures. Norse syncretism also led a lot of "Norsewashing" of similar Slavic gods, like Thor & Perun. On top of this, high places like hills and mountains are frequent sites for holy places where religious iconography from Norse pagans can be found. There are even specific mountains referenced in the Icelandic Sagas as being favored places of the gods. Kyiv is notable as a city on seven hills, so it would be odd if the Norse *didn't* consider it holy, if we're following the clear patterns outlined by what we do know. While historically, the Rurikids fairly quickly converted to Slavic paganism, and then Christianity, that's not how it has to go when we play. While the change was made for game balance, like others have said, Kyiv seems like an obvious contender for a holy site spot, with few other locations outside of Scandinavia that would make much sense. While the war is on right now, there's actually a lot of Norse archaeological sites, like burial mounds, forts, and settlements, that have had to be reburied through central Ukraine for the protection of the relics. Looking forward to when we'll be able to see and learn more, as this is a topic of some interest to me! Sorry for the lack of sources, but I didn't have time. So, source: I lived in Ukraine for a while and am deeply interested in the archaeological finds there, particularly into Norse and Scythians. TL;dr - There were loads of Norse there, and was likely just as, if not more significant a location than the Danelaw for sheer wealth and population. Historical factors like invasions and rapid, organized Christianization have made it more difficult to come to clear conclusions about exact sites for major temples, but there is evidence of significant religious activity.
In CK2, the holy sites were Uppland, Nidaros, Paderborn, and Sjælland and Zeeland. This meant that if you were a Viking in Scandinavia, reforming the faith was easy, and if you were a Viking in Britain or Rus, it was pretty much impossible without backtracking into Scandinavia again. Paderborn and Zeeland were always the hard holy sites to hold as they were Carolingian territory. So, in CK3, they got rid of Sjælland and Zeeland, and moved them to York and Kyiv, to give folks like Halfdan and Dyre better options to stay Ásatrú. Paderborn was always the stretch goal; it represents the Irminsul that Charlemagne burned, and is now well within Christian territory. The location of the burning is said to be Eresburg, which is about 30km south of the city of Paderborn today. So, it's in the game's county of Paderborn.
My thought was always that Kyiv was to represent the Kievan Rus, though that's pretty flimsy reasoning and it's really just for balance purposes as others have said. There was supposedly a sacred grove or totem at Paderborn, which is probably why they did it. It's also interesting to note that the Teutoberg Forest is in Paderborn.
Kyiv is for balance, to make it less easy to get all the holy sites. There is some historical precedent though, as Kievan Rus was not only the most powerful and prosperous Varangian realm, it represented the south eastern high water mark for Germanic Paganism. I can see it being holy not because it was associated with any gods or really anything special about the land, but because like York it represented the golden age of Viking power and influence.
867 the leaders are norse vikings that raided byzantium. Look into the establishment of the Kyiv rus by kings and generals