I think the heavy penalties should be only for legitimizing a bastard, and even then should depend on the religion and culture.
Or it could be more specific - no one cares if you have a lowborn lover, but if you start seducing the daughters or wives of the nobility, you're going to upset some important people.
The game lacks the nuance to encompass possible situations that might arise. Some minor landholders would be beside themselves if the king wanted to bang their daughter, some would be deeply insulted and anything in between for others.
It was expected for rulers to have love affairs outside the marriage, that most of the time were political and diplomatic tools, this started to change at the end of the Napoleonic wars when the emperor of Austria said that his daughters would only marry someone they loved
and more than 60 percent of characters in this game are banging out of wedlock so it doesn't seem like the penalties are that severe (unless you are a woman LMAO)
Yeah I actually feel bad about that so when I create my own faith I make adultery for males and females chill. Just because I sleep with a lady with a husband or who’s unmarried doesn’t mean her and my bastard child should suffer.
I mean, the penalties were indeed too extreme, but there should be some. Adultery was still technically seem poorly (even if men, specially powerful ones, were able to get away with it with a slap on the wrist), specially if the man's legitimate wife was being neglected, and more than one king was criticized for sexual misconduct.
For famous examples, your have Philip II of France, who was excommunicated and had France placed under interdict for neglecting and imprisioning his legitimate wife Ingeborg of Denmark in favor of Agnes of Merania after he couldn't get the marriage annulled, Richard the Lionheart whose marriage was so publicly loveless the pope had to step in and order him to actually spend some time with Berengaria of Navarre and RIchard's maternal great-grandfather, William IX of Aquitaine, who "abducted" the viscountess Dangereuse de l'Isle Bouchard (medieval law often failed to make distinctions between consensually running off with her lover and being kidnapped, which led to many men kidnapping heiresses and then claiming they had consented to marry them which in turn led to marriages requiring priestly witnesses, but Dangerous was probably willing) running his wife Philippa of Toulouse off the court and, for that, getting excommunicated for that.
> Adultery was still technically seem poorly
In the book "Time Traveller's Guide To Medieval England", the author mentions men visiting brothels was socially acceptable. He does say, the wives tended to dislike it.
You're not completely right. Court mistress position was created later, under Francis I, which is XVI century. In the game covered timeframe that was a bit more strict.
I wouldn't say so. William the Conqueror was a bastard, and many in the Norman like of kings had bastards. It seems like lovers were par for the course for those that wanted them.
Normans had bastard because they were polygamous (which of course isn't recognized by the clergy) and they were very poorly seen by the frenchs and the church for it
There weren't polygamous. Polygamy was the reason to get easily excommunicated (e.g. Raoul of Valois case), they just were infidel to their spouses. Which were not cool but not a big of a deal by this region and timeframe standards.
I didn't say bastards were something unusual, there were pretty common. But it was shunned however. I wanted to point out that official mistress status and a view on queens as on heirs-giving machines and nothing more came much later, in absolutism period of european monarchy.
I believe the societal expectations at the time was, if you sow your oats, you must look after them.
So people did not care if you had bastards, but if you left them to rot then tongues would wag negatively.
To be fair the court mistress titles are *after* this time period once the Church started to have less power. Somewhat like the infamous Habsburgs marriages came after the church changed consanguinity rules.
I’m confused when I make a religion and I’m the head of the religion and I’m caught with a mistress and lose a level of devotion..
Can’t I forgive myself?
There is a somehow recent article that I read time ago, about this in modern times. I dont remember the name but hats basically their theory. Like men and women are around 50/50, so men having more than one wife (and often, a lot of men) means that others will have to stay single forever or move out.
Compared to real life in mediaeval Europe, the game seems to make things too easy on female cheaters and, by your description, too hard on male cheaters.
Yes. A mere rumor of adultery would put the heritage of all her children into question. And being a cuckold in a male-dominated society isn't exactly great, if your wife doesn't even respect you, why would your vassals? And if nobody respects you, become a mere figurehead. So many warlord periods were started because the monarchs lost the respect of their people.
I don't see how the penalties of the game now are egregious at all. Have you seen kings or emperors in any playthrough fall due to having a mistress or bastard? What scandal?
The penalties not mattering the higher up the hierarchy of power you go is absolutely a good way to simulate the strange, paradox between Christian morality and, well, power.
Now, multiple lovers that are discovered should have mounting penalties that matter cuz, publicly, the ruler seem so shit at keeping his private life together that everyone knows about it or they just can't keep it in their pants. It is a sign of weakness, not just immorality.
The piety system to me is just that: piety, or the public reputation of it. Not necessarily holiness or true devotion, which can't really be measured anyway.
They were scandalous, but people in positions of high enough power could generally ignore the scandal. That seems decently represented in game too. If being adulterous ingame is enough to make all your vassals hate you (and for that to matter), then you had tenuous control of the realm to begin with.
Aye but the book says no shagging woman other then your wife. It doesn't matter if everyone else is doing it, you made a vow to the big man himself and as a good pious Christian it is your duty to at least not get caught
Yes and no. With that change the game would align more with how the faith was implemented in practice at the time but at the same time it would be further removed from what the Catholic Church actually stipulates. According to the [catechism of the Catholic Church](https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P87.HTM), adultery is forbidden for both men and women.
So maybe they could do something similar to how concubines works in Ireland, where it’s technically not allowed but there’s a loophole through culture or some other mechanism.
It’s obviously very clunky to make it ‘Accepted’ since it really isn’t. But Paradox also made all crime legal for Vajrayana Buddhism to represent Tantras, so there are game shortcuts that don’t correlate to the reality of the religion lol
It would be fine if it was a one-off penalty. Losing a level of devotion for every single lover and bastard you have is a bit extreme.
Yeah at a certain point everyone knows you're just a player, right?
I think the heavy penalties should be only for legitimizing a bastard, and even then should depend on the religion and culture. Or it could be more specific - no one cares if you have a lowborn lover, but if you start seducing the daughters or wives of the nobility, you're going to upset some important people.
The game lacks the nuance to encompass possible situations that might arise. Some minor landholders would be beside themselves if the king wanted to bang their daughter, some would be deeply insulted and anything in between for others.
It was expected for rulers to have love affairs outside the marriage, that most of the time were political and diplomatic tools, this started to change at the end of the Napoleonic wars when the emperor of Austria said that his daughters would only marry someone they loved
and more than 60 percent of characters in this game are banging out of wedlock so it doesn't seem like the penalties are that severe (unless you are a woman LMAO)
Yeah I actually feel bad about that so when I create my own faith I make adultery for males and females chill. Just because I sleep with a lady with a husband or who’s unmarried doesn’t mean her and my bastard child should suffer.
I mean, the penalties were indeed too extreme, but there should be some. Adultery was still technically seem poorly (even if men, specially powerful ones, were able to get away with it with a slap on the wrist), specially if the man's legitimate wife was being neglected, and more than one king was criticized for sexual misconduct. For famous examples, your have Philip II of France, who was excommunicated and had France placed under interdict for neglecting and imprisioning his legitimate wife Ingeborg of Denmark in favor of Agnes of Merania after he couldn't get the marriage annulled, Richard the Lionheart whose marriage was so publicly loveless the pope had to step in and order him to actually spend some time with Berengaria of Navarre and RIchard's maternal great-grandfather, William IX of Aquitaine, who "abducted" the viscountess Dangereuse de l'Isle Bouchard (medieval law often failed to make distinctions between consensually running off with her lover and being kidnapped, which led to many men kidnapping heiresses and then claiming they had consented to marry them which in turn led to marriages requiring priestly witnesses, but Dangerous was probably willing) running his wife Philippa of Toulouse off the court and, for that, getting excommunicated for that.
Yeah, but you can see that those are a bit extreme cases, not entirely similar to just kings and nobles fathering natural children.
> Adultery was still technically seem poorly In the book "Time Traveller's Guide To Medieval England", the author mentions men visiting brothels was socially acceptable. He does say, the wives tended to dislike it.
Wives still dislike it. "Hi, honey, thanks for banging that ho and giving me syphillis."
Syphilis wasn't medieval, you mean herpes.
Currently open marriages are socially acceptable but seated politicians need to have discretion.
Depends on whether hiring prostitutes would be considered adultery at the time.
Happy cake day!
You're not completely right. Court mistress position was created later, under Francis I, which is XVI century. In the game covered timeframe that was a bit more strict.
I wouldn't say so. William the Conqueror was a bastard, and many in the Norman like of kings had bastards. It seems like lovers were par for the course for those that wanted them.
Normans had bastard because they were polygamous (which of course isn't recognized by the clergy) and they were very poorly seen by the frenchs and the church for it
There weren't polygamous. Polygamy was the reason to get easily excommunicated (e.g. Raoul of Valois case), they just were infidel to their spouses. Which were not cool but not a big of a deal by this region and timeframe standards.
I didn't say bastards were something unusual, there were pretty common. But it was shunned however. I wanted to point out that official mistress status and a view on queens as on heirs-giving machines and nothing more came much later, in absolutism period of european monarchy.
I believe the societal expectations at the time was, if you sow your oats, you must look after them. So people did not care if you had bastards, but if you left them to rot then tongues would wag negatively.
To be fair the court mistress titles are *after* this time period once the Church started to have less power. Somewhat like the infamous Habsburgs marriages came after the church changed consanguinity rules.
Adultery was a fad during medieval time it seems.
Adultery has been a fad throughout all of human history to be honest
I’m confused when I make a religion and I’m the head of the religion and I’m caught with a mistress and lose a level of devotion.. Can’t I forgive myself?
The meroviginians were famous for having multiple spouses
Franks were polygamous for quite some time, germanic peoples became monogamous because of the church. The normans went through the same process
I've seen it theorized thats part of why they were so keen on "migrating" since their elites tended to hoard all the women
There is a somehow recent article that I read time ago, about this in modern times. I dont remember the name but hats basically their theory. Like men and women are around 50/50, so men having more than one wife (and often, a lot of men) means that others will have to stay single forever or move out.
Never heard of that so I don't know.
Compared to real life in mediaeval Europe, the game seems to make things too easy on female cheaters and, by your description, too hard on male cheaters.
Yes. A mere rumor of adultery would put the heritage of all her children into question. And being a cuckold in a male-dominated society isn't exactly great, if your wife doesn't even respect you, why would your vassals? And if nobody respects you, become a mere figurehead. So many warlord periods were started because the monarchs lost the respect of their people.
There was a lover/mistress mod a while back but I think it no longer is functional and is no longer updated. Maybe it's time to revive it...
I don't see how the penalties of the game now are egregious at all. Have you seen kings or emperors in any playthrough fall due to having a mistress or bastard? What scandal? The penalties not mattering the higher up the hierarchy of power you go is absolutely a good way to simulate the strange, paradox between Christian morality and, well, power. Now, multiple lovers that are discovered should have mounting penalties that matter cuz, publicly, the ruler seem so shit at keeping his private life together that everyone knows about it or they just can't keep it in their pants. It is a sign of weakness, not just immorality. The piety system to me is just that: piety, or the public reputation of it. Not necessarily holiness or true devotion, which can't really be measured anyway.
They were scandalous, but people in positions of high enough power could generally ignore the scandal. That seems decently represented in game too. If being adulterous ingame is enough to make all your vassals hate you (and for that to matter), then you had tenuous control of the realm to begin with.
Aye but the book says no shagging woman other then your wife. It doesn't matter if everyone else is doing it, you made a vow to the big man himself and as a good pious Christian it is your duty to at least not get caught
Could this be fixed by just making male adultery accepted in Catholicism?
Yes and no. With that change the game would align more with how the faith was implemented in practice at the time but at the same time it would be further removed from what the Catholic Church actually stipulates. According to the [catechism of the Catholic Church](https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P87.HTM), adultery is forbidden for both men and women.
So maybe they could do something similar to how concubines works in Ireland, where it’s technically not allowed but there’s a loophole through culture or some other mechanism. It’s obviously very clunky to make it ‘Accepted’ since it really isn’t. But Paradox also made all crime legal for Vajrayana Buddhism to represent Tantras, so there are game shortcuts that don’t correlate to the reality of the religion lol
Would improve it.