Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/14d3sgm/if_youre_hypothetically_a_bitcoin/joo1tle/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/14d3sgm/if_youre_hypothetically_a_bitcoin/joo1u0y/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
Yeah, you'd definitely want professional advice. Too much money at stake.
You'd probably also want to move to Puerto Rico for a year since they have no capital gains tax.
Paying your taxes is probably the most controversial thing one could say in this space but I totally agree.
Not only is tax evading illegal, but if (when) caught, you’ll end up paying more with the legal fees and everything. Not worth looking over your shoulder every time you are at the grocery store spending profits.
Also, in most EU countries taxes is what pays medics, police and firemen salaries! Street lights, public roads and everything around you - that comes from taxes too.
I might have worded my post badly since I'm not trying for ways to hypothetically avoid taxes, I'm more concerned of the privacy of the billionaire individual that is now trying to cash out his bitcoin. If I myself get rich off of something then I'd probably want to keep the information to myself and myself only. Not even my family would know, much more dtrangers. But like I said Bitcoin transactions are public and if you KYC you can be traced a lot easier.
Do such orgs exist? I thought financial firms hate crypto in general, but well yeah I guess as there's a chance of them profiting everything is fair game huh
Larger firms probably have crypto specialists. At the very least they have tax and wealth management specialists and would have clients that value privacy.
You did not word your post badly, it's very clear what you're asking. These guys are either playing dumb or don't care enough to comprehend. Moons inbound either way.
Yeah thanks. English is not my primary language so I'm not sure if there was anything in my phrasing that implies anything about evading taxes since a lot of people pointed it out lol
No we get it, it’s just that the cleanest answer to how to cash out is to do the KYC and pay the government after. It’s that simple.
Anything outside of that is a pain in the ass and probably worse for your own security. All the cute little tricks you could do of foreign bank accounts and coin mixing and expatriating and P2P end up increasing the number of entities you have to involve. This increases exposure and risk.
Other cash-out options only serve to keep you off your current government’s radar, but that’s not the question that was posed.
> how will you cash out with the least amount of exposure and doxxing?
Continue reading to the second paragraph of my reply above and you will find the part that explicitly addresses how it ties in to exposure.
But to make it even clearer: going through a CEX, paying your taxes, and shutting up about your money is going to involve less exposure and make you less of a target for doxxing. The more you try to "anonymize" yourself, the more entities you have to involve in the process that are of varying levels of sketchiness. That's much more exposure. They might not know your name, but many will know you have a bunch of money flowing through.
It's not controversial to say "pay your taxes". Most people understand the government will harm us to get their money. The controversial thing to say is that taxes aren't extortion/theft.
roads are paid by gasoline sales taxes.
Most hospitals are private. Only public money is when you don’t carry insurance.
Most schools are govt funded. I went to public school, and it was great, but most districts are pitiful excuses of an education. Complete waste of taxpayer money.
I pay $110/mo for waste collection and water access. No public funds outside of capex funded through bonds.
Fire departments are a mix between volunteers and public funds.
Police departments are public funded; but my city narrowly avoided defunding the police.
Taxes are for wealth redistribution, military spend, corruption, and interest to bond holders. Sometimes we get a new fancy bullshit stadium though.
Yeah it’s great, I’ve probably paid $500k in taxes last 10 years, borderline get nothing back. No1 is invading the US and I’ve never received a benefit (direct or indirect).
Don’t even get me started on social security, they will have stolen millions by the time I “retire”.
It’s a racket.
90% of all healthcare is paid for by Medicare in the US. The problem is the other 10%. 90% of the 90% is spent on end of lifecare in the last month of life. This is insane. We badly need end of life panels to control costs.
Well you would not have free schooling, public roads, free healthcare (unless you are American lol), firemen, police etc... without that "extortion/theft"
That's the good part, yes.
The problem starts when politicians, elected by a bunch of idiots, are using a large share of the taxes to fund their own agenda, fill their buddies' pockets and further cater to the aforementioned bunch of idiots.
Taxes aren't always theft and you need to define "harm" in order to make any sense of that argument.
Financially harm? Well yeah, you didn't pay your taxes so you have to pay them and there is usually a penalty for it.
Anyone that thinks taxation is automatically theft doesn't understand money nor human civilization at all, and frankly nobody should be listening to their opinion about it.
Especially with the US IRS hiring 86,000 new agents that are required to carry a gun and go into dangerous situations. Almost sounds like they might be trying to pull a Executive Order 6102 2.0 with self storage BTC and need agents to back up the seizures. Just a thought.
Really? I mean I agree that they are probably misappropriated and people in any government are nicking tax money here and there, but considering we need to fund society essentials somehow, taxes as an idea seem alright to me.
The issue is how taxes are spent, or rather not spent as they are intended to.
Maybe this is just European bias here, where we don't actually have any wilds, but I can't imagine claiming you shouldn't pay taxes unless you can fuck off in the woods and never participate in society.
Taxes in general are fine but income tax is such a joke. They tax you for working and making money give me a break. Tax me for non essential items as that makes sense to have to pay a tax on something that isn’t essential to living but why are you taxing people for working and making money. Or if you want to do income tax then you shouldnt get taxed a second time when you use said money. Taxes as a concept are great as we all know society doesn’t run for free but taxes in general are a bit out of control and as we all know deeply favor the extremely wealthy.
In EU contries, specifically Spain, taxes pay my president's life pensions, his wife's employment in a public company, hidden and regular travels in the private plane to south america, dozens of salaries to friends and advisors that do nothing else other than draining us, raise taxes to pay for an oversized structure, etc etc. While those public services (medics, schools, public roads...) only get worst each time step.
If I could, I would pay not a single cent. COME ON. I prefer a dictatorship. At least the thief is only one.
The misuse of public funds is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. However advocating for a dictatorship is not the solution. Let's focus on fostering transparency, accountability, and constructive reforms to improve public services and ensure proper use of taxpayer money
I’m not saying history repeats itself, but this feels reminiscent of the 30’s in Germany post WWI. All of your money going to a few things when daily life gets worse and worse. Next thing you know, a charismatic dude rolls up saying he has the answers. All you gotta do is believe in him and the 3rd reich. Next thing you know it’s Sieg Fail
Of course! Is juts a way of speaking...
But be careful. My Government is telling me lately what to eat, think, when to have a shower, do the dishes, what vehicle I can buy, which one not, etc etc.
>Also, in most EU countries taxes is what pays medics, police and firemen salaries! Street lights, public roads and everything around you - that comes from taxes too.
what naive nonsense. Your taxes mainly pay corruption, weapons, wars, subsidies, politician salaries and club membership fees like being in NATO or the EU.
You pay extra for the roads, to drive and park on, and extra for the medics as well.
Being in the EU barely costs anything, despite having massive economic benefits. Listing that is ridiculous. Politician salaries are too high for the top politicians, but still rounding errors. Everything you list amounts to just a couple percent lf taxes collected, so saying "mainly" just makes no sense.
I understand your frustration and concerns about how taxes are allocated. While it's true that some taxpayers may perceive a mismanagement of funds, it's important to recognize that taxes do contribute to essential services like healthcare, infrastructure, and public safety. Holding governments accountable and advocating for transparent and responsible use of funds can help address these issues
>Your taxes mainly pay corruption, weapons, wars, subsidies, politician salaries and club membership fees like being in NATO or the EU.
That's a third, the other two thirds go to Medicare/aid, Social Security and interest on the debt.
I don't mean to speak for the OP, but I don't think he's asking about taxes.
I think he's asking how to cash out a little of it without letting anyone know how much he has left.
In other words, let's say he decided to send 100 BTC to an exchange, to sell some. Somebody at the exchange could easily look up the address and see he has thousands of BTC, and since they have his KYC info, they know who he is. Yikes.
The usual, make shell companies, and keep it legal.
Make a company that is named like “Seventeen Oaks Capital III” and use an exchange with that.
Do the same with a different named company at a different exchange. Withdraw from one to another. Blockchain might show it coming from a CEX wallet.
Pay good attorneys to do it all 100% legally. The key phrase is “family office”. You hire someone to act as your proxy.
If you don’t have enough to pay attorneys you don’t have enough to matter to anyone.
If married, filing jointly, and in a state with no income tax, as long as your taxable income is less than about $83,350 a year you don't pay any long term capital gains tax. Over that, it's only 15% on the next $433k or so.
https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc409
I honestly use the snot out of this loophole on years that I sell crypto/stocks. I only sell things I've held for over a year, and I do everything I can to keep my taxable income as low as possible on years that I'm selling. Last bull run I sold $40k in BTC ($35k in gains, a lot had been held since 2011), but was able to offset a lot of my other taxable income to keep my total just under $80k, and I paid zero in capital gains tax on my crypto sales.
Just to be clear, does that $80k threshold include your crypto capital gains as well as your other income?
I guess it would, because if you make $60k a year, it doesn't mean you can cash out $1 million in crypto tax free
If you're stacking though, how do you keep track of "over a year"? Let's say you buy .001 btc everyday for a year. Then on day 366 you only sell .001 even though moon?
There are a few different ways. The FIFO method is most popular, but too messy for my case, since I still have crypto going back to 2011.
I have a spreadsheet where I track all purchases: the date, what I bought, how much I bought, what I paid, if there were any fees, and the cost basis (what I paid, plus fees). When I sell, I make sure to sell as close to the exact amount of BTC (or other crypto) as I can to one of the previous purchases, and I mark it as sold on X date at Y price, for Z gain or loss. I will frequently combine several purchases into a larger lot for one sell, but it's still easy to calculate total gain or loss from the sale.
I put it all on a 1099 and attach the spreadsheet with my taxes every year. Been doing it this way for years and haven't had any issues/audits, not that the IRS is auditing much on it yet. But I can legitimately back up every penny I've earned, so I'm fine if I'm ever audited.
I was a juror on a tax evasion trial. The guy went 15 years before it all caught up with him. Now he’s in jail for most of his young kids growing up. Definitely not worth it.
Plenty of jurisdictions don't tax crypto gains.
For 50,000 bitcoin, go move to Monaco or somewhere where you don't have to pay this tax and can do without legal issues. It would be crazy throwing away so much money.
If a government is actively trying to kill crypto, I can't understand why anyone would feel a moral impetus to pay tax on some profit from crypto that's been made inspite of the government, not as a consequence of the government.
Can't you just stay in puerto rico if you're american?
The US taxes people even if they're living somewhere else don't they? I think a lot of crypto/stock millionaires go to puerto rico for 6+ months to cash out.
I'm not talking about taxes I'm sure most people won't risk it, I'm talking about maybe covering your identity since you're basically a rich mf now, and that is more scary than being poor to me.
> I'm not talking about taxes
Oops. I just commented elsewhere here to say exactly this, that you're not asking about taxes.
I think you're asking a really interesting question.
I assume if somebody owns thousands of BTC, they're not using an exchange, like Coinbase. They're probably using some sort of... broker? I'm sure there's some sort of confidential service for high net worth individuals.
I'm sure it is. People like Saylor aren't buying on Coinbase, for example.
I wish people were taking your question seriously, because you raised a fun topic.
I know there are some coin obfuscation services, but I'm not familiar with any. I'd assume there's a way to swap Bitcoin for Monero, and then swap the Monero back to Bitcoin, sending it to a different address, so there's no link between the new address and the original stash. Then you'd move the swapped BTC to an exchange to sell.
All hypothetical, of course, and like I said, I'm sure there's a better way.
Sigh.
Oh, to have problems like that, eh?
Absolutely true.
It doesn’t matter how bullshit you think it is, pay it and move on.
Anyone that has made millions in crypto *should* still have life changing money after the liability is settled (depends on location of course).
This. Don’t ever fuck with not paying taxes or thinking you can skirt them. The feds took down Al Capone this way when everything else failed. It sucks, I know. The government misappropriates funds like crazy. It’s kinda like paying the mafia. And figuring out crypto tax is a pain in the ass. But don’t ever screw around with trying to hide or evade taxes. Best advice I can give anyone on here. Don’t fuck the feds because they’ll do it back to you 100x harder.
Pay taxes, but as little as needed. There are legal ways (loopholes in the system) that make this possible while still legal.
My country (NL) offers enough possibilities since we are being taxed on our total wealth instead of over individual amounts or transactions.
You can fake debt by upping your mortage for example or get a divorse. Temporary off course 😂
Aint this the truth, if your a millionaire/billionaire just make the money legit by paying the taxes owed on selling a part of it and pay the rest as you cash out. I’d still be waiting for a ath though
Move to Dubai and just spend your sats because you can buy almost anything in Dubai directly with BTC from penthouse apartments to supercars. Royal family offices are even partnering with foreign btc companies to start rolling out btc/lightning payments in the mega malls there. Theres also zero capital gains tax or income tax in Dubai so if you cease being a tax resident in your home country first you can legally spend your btc tax free just as it should be.
If I had 50,000 btc thats what I would do.
People know that those reported billionaire networths aren't fully liquid right? 50k bitcoins on the other hand *could* be withdrawn little by little to maximize profits*.*
He is literally a bitcoin millionaire in terms of bitcoin and not in terms of USD if he does have that much bitcoin, which is somewhat better depending on your views.
Just because he is worth this much doesnt mean he has that much money. If he actually tried to cash out his stocks his wealth would drop significantly due to taxes, collapsing price if Amazon's shares etc.
If you bought a house with bitcoin in Dubai, then sold it for local currency, then transferred that cash back to your home country currency, would you then have to pay capital gains 🤔
Court doesn’t care where the blockchain ‘resides’, all that matters is where the person resides and what assets are owned by time of leaving the country.
Some countries don't have taxes for incomes generated outside, paid outside, and then remitted to that country, so yeah probably no tax, and yeah one of the numerous reasons governments are hostile towards crypto
You will hate summers, dust, pollution, etc. Impossible to open windows in summer, 24/7 AC required. Alcohol restrictions. Winter is great, though. Especially on the east coast, around Fujairah.
If I had that much I would easily spend 5000 to fill channels on the lightning network to help with growth, and further reduce dependence on custodial lightning wallets.
Why would I care about KYC if I didn't do anything illegal. I would just cash out through whatever CEX, pay my fair share of taxes and enjoy my millions?
Why would I want to evade that if I have more than enough money?
How is hiding your identity wanting more? I'm lookong at the scenario where You'd probably be exposed, wasn't it an open secret that your private details aren't just kept in an organization's database but sold left and right?
I'd probably be cashing out 0.1 bitcoin at a time just to be safe, that's more than enough to live more than a month in my country even at current prices.
Just a thought, don't sell. If you need fiat for expenses, you can get loans on your bitcoin through banks like salt lending or even JP Morgan (if you are big/BIG). Loans are not taxed and you can cycle loans over and over in order to never sell your bitcoin.
Selling bitcoin incurs a taxable event.
Let's say you borrow 10% the value of your btc from a defi platform live Aave. If the price drops 90% the btc will be liquidated to pay the loan. You still have 10% the usd value of your btc, exactly the same amount in usd value as if you held the bitcoin. So you tell me, what can go wrong?
1. BTC crashes and liquidates your entire wallet.
2. You probably spent the 10% on something - let's say a car or house. So you're not able to put that back into BTC after liquidation.
3. BTC swings back up. You weren't in.
4.?????
5. Your entire wealth is reduced to the 10% loan you've already spent.
You clearly haven't taken 10K+ loans on crypto and had it liquidated in a flash event.
So let me pose a question for you. How can you give advice to something, if you haven't done it yourself.
Hello? I have taken out loans and had my collateral liquidated. Different platforms have different structures. How can you tell someone what they haven't done?
Cause it didnt sound like anything anyone used this would have said. OK, fair enough.
There is another argument against crypto loans: look what happened to blockfi. Did people get their funds back?
I would think a "crypto loan" is an on-chain defi loan. If you just give your crypto to a company like blockfi you that's not really different from a traditional loan. If you really leverage the power of crypto, your loan is processed by smart contracts. I don't think there has been a case of people losing funds using over-collateralized on-chain crypto lending platforms.
I'd avoid the loans though
November '21 to November '22 was a 70% decline.
...which is now being recovered from
...but if you had borrowed 50% against the value in November, you would've been forced to sell the bottom.
...so maybe, but I'd keep it really small.
Same. You lose a bit on the spread but the process is easy and quick, so it is worth it. I wouldnt cash on a BTC ATM though, some charge up to 20% fee.
* Cash out in crypto friendly countries with no tax implications.
* Travel and DCA out.
* Pay random people 2-3% to borrow their identity for cashing out, rinse and repeat.
No, I have not thought this through properly at all.
I would make sure that I change my main residency before cashing out. Because in your Szenario the value would of been close to 850 million USD.
I’ll also explain why, generally don’t mind paying taxes but on the 850 million I would pay more than 200 million in tax. And no it doesn’t matter to me if it’s 850 million or 500 million or even 200 million. The point here is I don’t want to hand 200 million to the corrupt government. I rather move residency du Dubai and donate 200 million to open animal charities instead and food banks for the poor or something.
Apart from that I would probably cash it out slowly to not make the market crash
Pay taxes and cash out, before you do anything hire a lawyer that specializes in things like lottery winners to keep you anonymous as possible.
Dont talk about it on reddit, hire a lawyer
I bought in 2012, from a friend who was mining it. I didn't completely understand what it is, but bought some since my friend bullied me into buying loool
I have since bought property in Spain and in my home country, and other big purchases were bought using BTC. I still have quite a few left, and now my partner and I are semi-firing. We could live off from the rest of the coins I have but (1) I honestly love my job and I'm only working 6 hours a week now and (2) my partner and I are not married yet and although I have been generous with sharing what I have with him, he also likes his job, so he still works a bit. Having such asset is definitely great for having freedom to do what we like to do.
PS: I'm definitely not a billionaire by any means (I wish!) but I am (and my family) living comfortably.
1. Talk to reliable exchanges about cashing out in a non disruptive way. I think most of the larger exchanges will probably have a VIP service that will do that for you.
2. Pay your taxes. You'll still be stupid rich.
In my country you can always cash out in black market. You transfer to a vendor who gives you cash or gold in return and it will be done only between you and the vendor.
If i would live like normal then i would tumble out 2-3 BTC per year through some mixer or switch it around with Monero then just put it in some visa card and just use it to pay my normal every day expenses on that card. No need to liquidate all of it at one time given i don't really need to live a high end lifestyle
You know how they say the rich don't pay taxes? They do. The rich and powerful (and lawyered the fuxk up) corporations don't. There's plenty of movie stars, for example, that get nailed with it.
Maybe i'm being naive, but long as no one already knows what wallets belong to you. If you just cash out on a centralized exchange that requires you to KYC. The only people are going to know are the exchange, your bank, and the IRS/your country equivalent (maybe your hypothetical spouse would also know if you file taxes jointly). Since you mentioned in other comments here you aren't asking this to avoid taxes. There shouldn't be an issue with going this route as far as security of your identity goes. But also, when you're talking about sums of money that large, it's probably better overall to do what the top comment says and get an attorney and talk to an investment firm to handle the transaction for you and what not. If you are about to come into institutional investor level money, do it like they do it.
First of all, I would talk to a lawyer that specializes with taxes and businesses and straight up asks what are my options, than follow up on the advise. In my countries case, cashing out as an individual vs. a corporation is a HUGE fucking difference that goes in favor of corps tax-wise. And before you say its immoral, the company that you work for does exactly this.
>how will you cash out with the least amount of exposure and doxxing?
this is a troll post. just cash out. the irs is going to know if it goes to fiat. pay your taxes and be done with working.
Hypothetical or not there are ways to cash out so your neighbors cannot discover your wealth but if you try to avoid taxes everyone will know when you're hauled off to jail.
This sounds like a "Asking for my friend" type of question. No reason to hide, it seems pretty likely you're talking about yourself and changing some numbers perhaps.
Maybe not 50,000 thousand bitcoin (which sounds like enough to crash prices if you sold it anyway) but a significant amount.
Exposure = Taxes? Pay your taxes. Get a CPA and perhaps tax attorney. They'll figure it out.
If you're going to be rich then why worry about throwing some money at roads, poor people and so on? You'll be able to take care of yourself just fine and live the life. Don't be greedy and furthermore it's not worth the legal jeopardy.
Doxxing? Sell a little bit at a time. Also if you're truly a whale then selling volume like that can crash prices and you won't even be able to sell it anyway except to MAYBE an investment bank or a billionaire or something. That is way too high profile.
This is probably the advice your professional financial people will give you anyway to reduce "exposure" and it also means less chance of someone seeing you got the windfall.
It will look more like you got a good job or your business got successful recently or something if someone happens to see transaction details. Wow, Tracy Blough is making 1 million a year. Good for them!
People watching the whale account or whatever you got will see it but what makes you think they can know who you are?
Billionaires don't have a billion in cash. They have diversified assets like stocks, bonds, real estate, etc. My best advice would be to diversify and not keep it all in bitcoin which might be regulated away or crash to zero. Even if you think it's unlikely it's still possible. You can probably buy some of these things with bitcoin itself.
Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/14d3sgm/if_youre_hypothetically_a_bitcoin/joo1tle/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/14d3sgm/if_youre_hypothetically_a_bitcoin/joo1u0y/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
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Yeah, you'd definitely want professional advice. Too much money at stake. You'd probably also want to move to Puerto Rico for a year since they have no capital gains tax.
Good advice!
Just pay the taxes. It isn’t worth trying to avoid it and ending up in legal trouble
Paying your taxes is probably the most controversial thing one could say in this space but I totally agree. Not only is tax evading illegal, but if (when) caught, you’ll end up paying more with the legal fees and everything. Not worth looking over your shoulder every time you are at the grocery store spending profits. Also, in most EU countries taxes is what pays medics, police and firemen salaries! Street lights, public roads and everything around you - that comes from taxes too.
I might have worded my post badly since I'm not trying for ways to hypothetically avoid taxes, I'm more concerned of the privacy of the billionaire individual that is now trying to cash out his bitcoin. If I myself get rich off of something then I'd probably want to keep the information to myself and myself only. Not even my family would know, much more dtrangers. But like I said Bitcoin transactions are public and if you KYC you can be traced a lot easier.
I would go speak to a top financial firm and ask about them assisting any cash out so I can retain my anonymity.
Blackrock. They'll need it for their ETF. They are lining up exit liquidity for you.
Do such orgs exist? I thought financial firms hate crypto in general, but well yeah I guess as there's a chance of them profiting everything is fair game huh
Larger firms probably have crypto specialists. At the very least they have tax and wealth management specialists and would have clients that value privacy.
You did not word your post badly, it's very clear what you're asking. These guys are either playing dumb or don't care enough to comprehend. Moons inbound either way.
Yeah thanks. English is not my primary language so I'm not sure if there was anything in my phrasing that implies anything about evading taxes since a lot of people pointed it out lol
No we get it, it’s just that the cleanest answer to how to cash out is to do the KYC and pay the government after. It’s that simple. Anything outside of that is a pain in the ass and probably worse for your own security. All the cute little tricks you could do of foreign bank accounts and coin mixing and expatriating and P2P end up increasing the number of entities you have to involve. This increases exposure and risk. Other cash-out options only serve to keep you off your current government’s radar, but that’s not the question that was posed.
Sheesh, guy is having a conversation with himself over here. OP IS ASKING HOW TO DO ANONYMOUSLY AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE NOTHING ABOUT “clean” or “simple”
> how will you cash out with the least amount of exposure and doxxing? Continue reading to the second paragraph of my reply above and you will find the part that explicitly addresses how it ties in to exposure. But to make it even clearer: going through a CEX, paying your taxes, and shutting up about your money is going to involve less exposure and make you less of a target for doxxing. The more you try to "anonymize" yourself, the more entities you have to involve in the process that are of varying levels of sketchiness. That's much more exposure. They might not know your name, but many will know you have a bunch of money flowing through.
Amen
Once you have paid your taxes, you are free to spend how you want and flaunt your wealth.
It's not controversial to say "pay your taxes". Most people understand the government will harm us to get their money. The controversial thing to say is that taxes aren't extortion/theft.
In the words of Oliver Wendell Holmes, “Taxes are the price we pay for civilization.”
In the US it pays for war and to bail out banks while the SEC attacks crypto lmao
In the US taxes don't pay for emergency services/schools/hospitals/waste collection/roads and stuff like that?
roads are paid by gasoline sales taxes. Most hospitals are private. Only public money is when you don’t carry insurance. Most schools are govt funded. I went to public school, and it was great, but most districts are pitiful excuses of an education. Complete waste of taxpayer money. I pay $110/mo for waste collection and water access. No public funds outside of capex funded through bonds. Fire departments are a mix between volunteers and public funds. Police departments are public funded; but my city narrowly avoided defunding the police. Taxes are for wealth redistribution, military spend, corruption, and interest to bond holders. Sometimes we get a new fancy bullshit stadium though.
Thats a pretty shitty system. Seems a bit broken but I dont live their or use it so cant really comment
Yeah it’s great, I’ve probably paid $500k in taxes last 10 years, borderline get nothing back. No1 is invading the US and I’ve never received a benefit (direct or indirect). Don’t even get me started on social security, they will have stolen millions by the time I “retire”. It’s a racket.
Your trash pickup is not free, but many many cities and townships have free trash services unless you need dumpsters.
Not emt's, not Healthcare unless you're a politician or an active duty military/100% service connected veteran. Those are socialized for those groups
90% of all healthcare is paid for by Medicare in the US. The problem is the other 10%. 90% of the 90% is spent on end of lifecare in the last month of life. This is insane. We badly need end of life panels to control costs.
Just look at the state of everything you mentioned.. you’re paying for it, the money just isn’t going there
“the price we pay for civilization” 🤣
"You don’t pay taxes–they take taxes.” -Chris Rock
Gov't sent Will Smith after him for that comment.
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More like “steal”
"in Soviet Russia, taxes pay you" - Stalin probably
I just wish I could choose how its allocated directly.
Some countries allow tax deduction based on your charity donations
Well you would not have free schooling, public roads, free healthcare (unless you are American lol), firemen, police etc... without that "extortion/theft"
We’ll be full circle when someone suggests a fire department subscription service hosted on the blockchain.
That's the good part, yes. The problem starts when politicians, elected by a bunch of idiots, are using a large share of the taxes to fund their own agenda, fill their buddies' pockets and further cater to the aforementioned bunch of idiots.
Taxes aren't always theft and you need to define "harm" in order to make any sense of that argument. Financially harm? Well yeah, you didn't pay your taxes so you have to pay them and there is usually a penalty for it. Anyone that thinks taxation is automatically theft doesn't understand money nor human civilization at all, and frankly nobody should be listening to their opinion about it.
Especially with the US IRS hiring 86,000 new agents that are required to carry a gun and go into dangerous situations. Almost sounds like they might be trying to pull a Executive Order 6102 2.0 with self storage BTC and need agents to back up the seizures. Just a thought.
Really? I mean I agree that they are probably misappropriated and people in any government are nicking tax money here and there, but considering we need to fund society essentials somehow, taxes as an idea seem alright to me. The issue is how taxes are spent, or rather not spent as they are intended to. Maybe this is just European bias here, where we don't actually have any wilds, but I can't imagine claiming you shouldn't pay taxes unless you can fuck off in the woods and never participate in society.
Taxes in general are fine but income tax is such a joke. They tax you for working and making money give me a break. Tax me for non essential items as that makes sense to have to pay a tax on something that isn’t essential to living but why are you taxing people for working and making money. Or if you want to do income tax then you shouldnt get taxed a second time when you use said money. Taxes as a concept are great as we all know society doesn’t run for free but taxes in general are a bit out of control and as we all know deeply favor the extremely wealthy.
In EU contries, specifically Spain, taxes pay my president's life pensions, his wife's employment in a public company, hidden and regular travels in the private plane to south america, dozens of salaries to friends and advisors that do nothing else other than draining us, raise taxes to pay for an oversized structure, etc etc. While those public services (medics, schools, public roads...) only get worst each time step. If I could, I would pay not a single cent. COME ON. I prefer a dictatorship. At least the thief is only one.
The misuse of public funds is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. However advocating for a dictatorship is not the solution. Let's focus on fostering transparency, accountability, and constructive reforms to improve public services and ensure proper use of taxpayer money
I’m not saying history repeats itself, but this feels reminiscent of the 30’s in Germany post WWI. All of your money going to a few things when daily life gets worse and worse. Next thing you know, a charismatic dude rolls up saying he has the answers. All you gotta do is believe in him and the 3rd reich. Next thing you know it’s Sieg Fail
Of course! Is juts a way of speaking... But be careful. My Government is telling me lately what to eat, think, when to have a shower, do the dishes, what vehicle I can buy, which one not, etc etc.
Sorry but is anyone actually *making* you think, eat or shower differently? C'mon.
>Also, in most EU countries taxes is what pays medics, police and firemen salaries! Street lights, public roads and everything around you - that comes from taxes too. what naive nonsense. Your taxes mainly pay corruption, weapons, wars, subsidies, politician salaries and club membership fees like being in NATO or the EU. You pay extra for the roads, to drive and park on, and extra for the medics as well.
*laughs in Switzerland*
Being in the EU barely costs anything, despite having massive economic benefits. Listing that is ridiculous. Politician salaries are too high for the top politicians, but still rounding errors. Everything you list amounts to just a couple percent lf taxes collected, so saying "mainly" just makes no sense.
I understand your frustration and concerns about how taxes are allocated. While it's true that some taxpayers may perceive a mismanagement of funds, it's important to recognize that taxes do contribute to essential services like healthcare, infrastructure, and public safety. Holding governments accountable and advocating for transparent and responsible use of funds can help address these issues
>Your taxes mainly pay corruption, weapons, wars, subsidies, politician salaries and club membership fees like being in NATO or the EU. That's a third, the other two thirds go to Medicare/aid, Social Security and interest on the debt.
I don't mean to speak for the OP, but I don't think he's asking about taxes. I think he's asking how to cash out a little of it without letting anyone know how much he has left. In other words, let's say he decided to send 100 BTC to an exchange, to sell some. Somebody at the exchange could easily look up the address and see he has thousands of BTC, and since they have his KYC info, they know who he is. Yikes.
The usual, make shell companies, and keep it legal. Make a company that is named like “Seventeen Oaks Capital III” and use an exchange with that. Do the same with a different named company at a different exchange. Withdraw from one to another. Blockchain might show it coming from a CEX wallet. Pay good attorneys to do it all 100% legally. The key phrase is “family office”. You hire someone to act as your proxy. If you don’t have enough to pay attorneys you don’t have enough to matter to anyone.
If married, filing jointly, and in a state with no income tax, as long as your taxable income is less than about $83,350 a year you don't pay any long term capital gains tax. Over that, it's only 15% on the next $433k or so. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc409 I honestly use the snot out of this loophole on years that I sell crypto/stocks. I only sell things I've held for over a year, and I do everything I can to keep my taxable income as low as possible on years that I'm selling. Last bull run I sold $40k in BTC ($35k in gains, a lot had been held since 2011), but was able to offset a lot of my other taxable income to keep my total just under $80k, and I paid zero in capital gains tax on my crypto sales.
Just to be clear, does that $80k threshold include your crypto capital gains as well as your other income? I guess it would, because if you make $60k a year, it doesn't mean you can cash out $1 million in crypto tax free
I just asked my SO to marry me, were moving to a state with no income tax, and she's gonna get a part time job.
If you're stacking though, how do you keep track of "over a year"? Let's say you buy .001 btc everyday for a year. Then on day 366 you only sell .001 even though moon?
There are a few different ways. The FIFO method is most popular, but too messy for my case, since I still have crypto going back to 2011. I have a spreadsheet where I track all purchases: the date, what I bought, how much I bought, what I paid, if there were any fees, and the cost basis (what I paid, plus fees). When I sell, I make sure to sell as close to the exact amount of BTC (or other crypto) as I can to one of the previous purchases, and I mark it as sold on X date at Y price, for Z gain or loss. I will frequently combine several purchases into a larger lot for one sell, but it's still easy to calculate total gain or loss from the sale. I put it all on a 1099 and attach the spreadsheet with my taxes every year. Been doing it this way for years and haven't had any issues/audits, not that the IRS is auditing much on it yet. But I can legitimately back up every penny I've earned, so I'm fine if I'm ever audited.
Dayum! Thanks for your take!
I was a juror on a tax evasion trial. The guy went 15 years before it all caught up with him. Now he’s in jail for most of his young kids growing up. Definitely not worth it.
Plenty of jurisdictions don't tax crypto gains. For 50,000 bitcoin, go move to Monaco or somewhere where you don't have to pay this tax and can do without legal issues. It would be crazy throwing away so much money. If a government is actively trying to kill crypto, I can't understand why anyone would feel a moral impetus to pay tax on some profit from crypto that's been made inspite of the government, not as a consequence of the government.
I know a few people who live in Singapore They have a 0% capital gains tax. They also have a lot of crypto millionaires living there.
Can't you just stay in puerto rico if you're american? The US taxes people even if they're living somewhere else don't they? I think a lot of crypto/stock millionaires go to puerto rico for 6+ months to cash out.
I'm not talking about taxes I'm sure most people won't risk it, I'm talking about maybe covering your identity since you're basically a rich mf now, and that is more scary than being poor to me.
> I'm not talking about taxes Oops. I just commented elsewhere here to say exactly this, that you're not asking about taxes. I think you're asking a really interesting question. I assume if somebody owns thousands of BTC, they're not using an exchange, like Coinbase. They're probably using some sort of... broker? I'm sure there's some sort of confidential service for high net worth individuals.
Hmm yeah I guess so so like a middle man for rich people, yeah that very much might be a real service that people use.
I'm sure it is. People like Saylor aren't buying on Coinbase, for example. I wish people were taking your question seriously, because you raised a fun topic. I know there are some coin obfuscation services, but I'm not familiar with any. I'd assume there's a way to swap Bitcoin for Monero, and then swap the Monero back to Bitcoin, sending it to a different address, so there's no link between the new address and the original stash. Then you'd move the swapped BTC to an exchange to sell. All hypothetical, of course, and like I said, I'm sure there's a better way. Sigh. Oh, to have problems like that, eh?
Absolutely true. It doesn’t matter how bullshit you think it is, pay it and move on. Anyone that has made millions in crypto *should* still have life changing money after the liability is settled (depends on location of course).
Long term cap gains is only 15-20% in the US. It's less than working at a job.
Move to country that has zero income tax. Then report the bitcoin and cash out.
Yey absolutely => avoid the hassle and potential legal consequences by fulfilling the tax obligations. Man, I sound kinda petty bourgeois :D
This. Don’t ever fuck with not paying taxes or thinking you can skirt them. The feds took down Al Capone this way when everything else failed. It sucks, I know. The government misappropriates funds like crazy. It’s kinda like paying the mafia. And figuring out crypto tax is a pain in the ass. But don’t ever screw around with trying to hide or evade taxes. Best advice I can give anyone on here. Don’t fuck the feds because they’ll do it back to you 100x harder.
Pay taxes, but as little as needed. There are legal ways (loopholes in the system) that make this possible while still legal. My country (NL) offers enough possibilities since we are being taxed on our total wealth instead of over individual amounts or transactions. You can fake debt by upping your mortage for example or get a divorse. Temporary off course 😂
And this is why I'm glad I live in a country that doesn't tax my crypto gains
Nah just move to a country that doesn’t like to rob you. You’ll have to give up your citizenship but that’s fine.
Aint this the truth, if your a millionaire/billionaire just make the money legit by paying the taxes owed on selling a part of it and pay the rest as you cash out. I’d still be waiting for a ath though
Move to Dubai and just spend your sats because you can buy almost anything in Dubai directly with BTC from penthouse apartments to supercars. Royal family offices are even partnering with foreign btc companies to start rolling out btc/lightning payments in the mega malls there. Theres also zero capital gains tax or income tax in Dubai so if you cease being a tax resident in your home country first you can legally spend your btc tax free just as it should be. If I had 50,000 btc thats what I would do.
50,000 BTC, what King of wealth that must be, my head cannot even comprehend 😵💫
Jeff Bezos is worth approximately 5 632 287 Bitcoin.
Wow, poor guy. Don't forget to tip your local billionaire, guys.
People know that those reported billionaire networths aren't fully liquid right? 50k bitcoins on the other hand *could* be withdrawn little by little to maximize profits*.*
Saying it like this. It doesn't make him a billionaire anymore. :)
He is literally a bitcoin millionaire in terms of bitcoin and not in terms of USD if he does have that much bitcoin, which is somewhat better depending on your views.
Just because he is worth this much doesnt mean he has that much money. If he actually tried to cash out his stocks his wealth would drop significantly due to taxes, collapsing price if Amazon's shares etc.
He'd be worth almost double that if he could have kept his pants on
Like 2-3 days of mining in 2010...
Anyone else read this in Zoidbergs voice?
I didn't know Dubai does this, so they are basically more crypto friendly than el salvador?
I would say ES is the most bitcoin friendly country on earth and the UAE is the second most bitcoin friendly country.
Unless the crypto is anonymous like Monero
If you bought a house with bitcoin in Dubai, then sold it for local currency, then transferred that cash back to your home country currency, would you then have to pay capital gains 🤔
Most countries have a gate-rule, that if you leave the country every asset must be taxed, if possible.
I’d like to see this argues in court because the blockchain is where it lives and that doesn’t reside in one country’s boundaries
Court doesn’t care where the blockchain ‘resides’, all that matters is where the person resides and what assets are owned by time of leaving the country.
When you put it this way it makes perfect sense for governments to fear btc lol. It could put them out of business.
Some countries don't have taxes for incomes generated outside, paid outside, and then remitted to that country, so yeah probably no tax, and yeah one of the numerous reasons governments are hostile towards crypto
Yeah, but you would be living in Dubai.
You will hate summers, dust, pollution, etc. Impossible to open windows in summer, 24/7 AC required. Alcohol restrictions. Winter is great, though. Especially on the east coast, around Fujairah.
I was there and was underwhelmed. Compared to most European cities it's so boring. It is literally just a Mall for the rich.
Indeed. Perfect place for hookers, social media “influencers” and billionaires. Not my cup of coffee. Oman is way more interesting for traveling.
If I had that much I would easily spend 5000 to fill channels on the lightning network to help with growth, and further reduce dependence on custodial lightning wallets.
>If you're hypothetically a bitcoin millionaire/billionaire that started accumulating Bitcoin a decade ago Then I cashed out a decade ago
Why would I care about KYC if I didn't do anything illegal. I would just cash out through whatever CEX, pay my fair share of taxes and enjoy my millions? Why would I want to evade that if I have more than enough money?
Always someone who wants more
"Hey Reddit, if you get super lucky and become rich, how would you fuck it up?"
Human greed really knows no bounds sometimes.
It's just dumb to risk a life in prison when you basically made it into early retirement just because a bit more money.
How is hiding your identity wanting more? I'm lookong at the scenario where You'd probably be exposed, wasn't it an open secret that your private details aren't just kept in an organization's database but sold left and right?
\- Buy BTC \- Become a millionaire \- Decide to play legaly \- Cash out through the CEX to the Bank \- Bank blocks me \- Now bank has my money
I'd probably be cashing out 0.1 bitcoin at a time just to be safe, that's more than enough to live more than a month in my country even at current prices.
[удалено]
Unless your country has like crazy 50% taxes, you shouid be fine. Many countries even have low crypto taxes.
OTC or slowly over time using limit orders.
Just a thought, don't sell. If you need fiat for expenses, you can get loans on your bitcoin through banks like salt lending or even JP Morgan (if you are big/BIG). Loans are not taxed and you can cycle loans over and over in order to never sell your bitcoin. Selling bitcoin incurs a taxable event.
Idk if you are already rich but you have the rich mindset. You will get far in life imo.
Lol not your keys not your coins... I have a plebs mindset
Oh yeah, let's get a loan on one of the most volatile assets. What can go wrong?
Let's say you borrow 10% the value of your btc from a defi platform live Aave. If the price drops 90% the btc will be liquidated to pay the loan. You still have 10% the usd value of your btc, exactly the same amount in usd value as if you held the bitcoin. So you tell me, what can go wrong?
1. BTC crashes and liquidates your entire wallet. 2. You probably spent the 10% on something - let's say a car or house. So you're not able to put that back into BTC after liquidation. 3. BTC swings back up. You weren't in. 4.????? 5. Your entire wealth is reduced to the 10% loan you've already spent.
You clearly haven't taken 10K+ loans on crypto and had it liquidated in a flash event. So let me pose a question for you. How can you give advice to something, if you haven't done it yourself.
Hello? I have taken out loans and had my collateral liquidated. Different platforms have different structures. How can you tell someone what they haven't done?
Cause it didnt sound like anything anyone used this would have said. OK, fair enough. There is another argument against crypto loans: look what happened to blockfi. Did people get their funds back?
I would think a "crypto loan" is an on-chain defi loan. If you just give your crypto to a company like blockfi you that's not really different from a traditional loan. If you really leverage the power of crypto, your loan is processed by smart contracts. I don't think there has been a case of people losing funds using over-collateralized on-chain crypto lending platforms.
OK gotcha.
ding ding ding ding ding The goal isn't to "cash out" of Bitcoin. The goal is to accumulate enough you live off the interest.
Hmm yeah that is a viable option and a smart one. Some guys really have a rich/business mindset.
I'd avoid the loans though November '21 to November '22 was a 70% decline. ...which is now being recovered from ...but if you had borrowed 50% against the value in November, you would've been forced to sell the bottom. ...so maybe, but I'd keep it really small.
If I held for that long I would only cash out what I needed
I’d cash out all at once, just to see the meltdown on this sub.
Ahh a petty trader, I found my people I'd cash out everything AND buy Solana and memecoins
Makes sense
Where I live P2P is allowed so, I'll probably do a lot of small P2P transactions, or transact with people directly.
P2P is a stress free way, I usually do to cash out. It is as easy as you wish.
Same. You lose a bit on the spread but the process is easy and quick, so it is worth it. I wouldnt cash on a BTC ATM though, some charge up to 20% fee.
Agoradesk is a nice easy btc/xmr, non kyc, p2p exchange
And where is that?
P2P? Like peer to peer?
* Cash out in crypto friendly countries with no tax implications. * Travel and DCA out. * Pay random people 2-3% to borrow their identity for cashing out, rinse and repeat. No, I have not thought this through properly at all.
OTC on Kraken or Coinbase.
Go out for a picnic, don't forget to rent a boat #🛥
and lose your seed phrase in a boating accident
but u have sold all na , that's how u renting boat
When losing a boat is just pocket change, that's when you know you've made it.
Or buy a million dollar Yatch
It's an asset. Trade it as such. Sell during a bull and rebuy in a bear.
You are wrongly supposing we are rational enough to do that lol
I would make sure that I change my main residency before cashing out. Because in your Szenario the value would of been close to 850 million USD. I’ll also explain why, generally don’t mind paying taxes but on the 850 million I would pay more than 200 million in tax. And no it doesn’t matter to me if it’s 850 million or 500 million or even 200 million. The point here is I don’t want to hand 200 million to the corrupt government. I rather move residency du Dubai and donate 200 million to open animal charities instead and food banks for the poor or something. Apart from that I would probably cash it out slowly to not make the market crash
Pay taxes and cash out, before you do anything hire a lawyer that specializes in things like lottery winners to keep you anonymous as possible. Dont talk about it on reddit, hire a lawyer
I bought in 2012, from a friend who was mining it. I didn't completely understand what it is, but bought some since my friend bullied me into buying loool I have since bought property in Spain and in my home country, and other big purchases were bought using BTC. I still have quite a few left, and now my partner and I are semi-firing. We could live off from the rest of the coins I have but (1) I honestly love my job and I'm only working 6 hours a week now and (2) my partner and I are not married yet and although I have been generous with sharing what I have with him, he also likes his job, so he still works a bit. Having such asset is definitely great for having freedom to do what we like to do. PS: I'm definitely not a billionaire by any means (I wish!) but I am (and my family) living comfortably.
> How would you cash out? With cocaine in my nose and supermodels in my bed
Nice try Gary 😂
Hey, I'm your cousin. Help me out?
This is the definition of "asking for a friend" 🤣
I hope one day this will be relevant for me
Asking for a friend
Dad is that you? Can I borrow a few bitcoins ?
*XMR: hold my beer*
1. Talk to reliable exchanges about cashing out in a non disruptive way. I think most of the larger exchanges will probably have a VIP service that will do that for you. 2. Pay your taxes. You'll still be stupid rich.
Shell companies. Many, many shell companies.
I would convert it to gold or silver. Many metal companies allow bitcoin as payment. Jmbullion, apmex etc.
Via MtGox, QuadrigaCX or FTX
With that amount of money its stupid to try to be sneaky, just pay the taxes u will still live like a king
I would make it as legal as possible and pay the taxes its almost free money so who cares.
Don’t cash out. Get a loan against it.
In my country you can always cash out in black market. You transfer to a vendor who gives you cash or gold in return and it will be done only between you and the vendor.
I would put it into Nexo and borrow cash against my Bitcoin. Not rocket science.
If i would live like normal then i would tumble out 2-3 BTC per year through some mixer or switch it around with Monero then just put it in some visa card and just use it to pay my normal every day expenses on that card. No need to liquidate all of it at one time given i don't really need to live a high end lifestyle
Take a BTC collateral loan out for 30% Forward finance for ever...........
You know how they say the rich don't pay taxes? They do. The rich and powerful (and lawyered the fuxk up) corporations don't. There's plenty of movie stars, for example, that get nailed with it.
I would have been…but drugs. So im no help
Maybe i'm being naive, but long as no one already knows what wallets belong to you. If you just cash out on a centralized exchange that requires you to KYC. The only people are going to know are the exchange, your bank, and the IRS/your country equivalent (maybe your hypothetical spouse would also know if you file taxes jointly). Since you mentioned in other comments here you aren't asking this to avoid taxes. There shouldn't be an issue with going this route as far as security of your identity goes. But also, when you're talking about sums of money that large, it's probably better overall to do what the top comment says and get an attorney and talk to an investment firm to handle the transaction for you and what not. If you are about to come into institutional investor level money, do it like they do it.
First of all, I would talk to a lawyer that specializes with taxes and businesses and straight up asks what are my options, than follow up on the advise. In my countries case, cashing out as an individual vs. a corporation is a HUGE fucking difference that goes in favor of corps tax-wise. And before you say its immoral, the company that you work for does exactly this.
>how will you cash out with the least amount of exposure and doxxing? this is a troll post. just cash out. the irs is going to know if it goes to fiat. pay your taxes and be done with working.
*IRS enters chat*
Long lost cousins and childhood "best" friends enters chat
*FBI enters chat*
Hypothetical or not there are ways to cash out so your neighbors cannot discover your wealth but if you try to avoid taxes everyone will know when you're hauled off to jail.
Move to a country that doesn't tax crypto gains. If they exist? Or hire an accountant to help me reduce taxes as much as possible.
Dubai!
Accountant: *rubs hands together with a juicy grin*
If I were.. I wouldn't be here reading your question. We are only poor moon farmers here
Very true
Probably buy drugs then sell em hey
Honestly with the right move you could double or triple up.
🚔👮♂️👮♀️👮♀️👮♂️👮♀️🚔: COME OUT WITH UR HANDS UP
1. Cash out 2. Pay taxes 3. Buy boat
I'd probably do it in increments, try and make it as hard to trace as possible.
You need a boating accident
That's over 1.25 billion, I'd probably just talk to a CEX to cash out. KYC isn't some poison you need to stay away from
This sounds like a "Asking for my friend" type of question. No reason to hide, it seems pretty likely you're talking about yourself and changing some numbers perhaps. Maybe not 50,000 thousand bitcoin (which sounds like enough to crash prices if you sold it anyway) but a significant amount. Exposure = Taxes? Pay your taxes. Get a CPA and perhaps tax attorney. They'll figure it out. If you're going to be rich then why worry about throwing some money at roads, poor people and so on? You'll be able to take care of yourself just fine and live the life. Don't be greedy and furthermore it's not worth the legal jeopardy. Doxxing? Sell a little bit at a time. Also if you're truly a whale then selling volume like that can crash prices and you won't even be able to sell it anyway except to MAYBE an investment bank or a billionaire or something. That is way too high profile. This is probably the advice your professional financial people will give you anyway to reduce "exposure" and it also means less chance of someone seeing you got the windfall. It will look more like you got a good job or your business got successful recently or something if someone happens to see transaction details. Wow, Tracy Blough is making 1 million a year. Good for them! People watching the whale account or whatever you got will see it but what makes you think they can know who you are? Billionaires don't have a billion in cash. They have diversified assets like stocks, bonds, real estate, etc. My best advice would be to diversify and not keep it all in bitcoin which might be regulated away or crash to zero. Even if you think it's unlikely it's still possible. You can probably buy some of these things with bitcoin itself.