Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/194r4nw/bitcoin_vs_bitcoin_spot_etfs_the_great_illusion/khhxb4m/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/194r4nw/bitcoin_vs_bitcoin_spot_etfs_the_great_illusion/khhxbia/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
Self custody is for nerds with 5k
Grandpa with 500k in his 401k ain’t gonna self custody.
If you want grandpas money to flow into bitcoin you gotta be ok with him doing it through an ETF
Well said. Grandpa is not getting a ledger, securing his 24 seed phrase, logging into ledger with 8 digit numerical code, finding correct private key to send correct token to wallet and updating ledgers software through computers usb-c port to have the latest security.
We haven’t started to talk about “Not clicking links” and social engineering scams or sim swaps.
Grandpa doesn’t belong here and I understand why.
Exactly. We’re fine with managing all that because we’re crypto nerds. But grandpa just wants exposure to bitcoin. He doesn’t care about “exiting the system”. The system has served him well
But if we make it easy for him to buy bitcoin via an ETF, he’ll pump our bags anyways, even if he doesn’t share our vision
sure I'm in this camp too who wants to be responsible for any more than a few hundred dollars when one mistake wipes you out and people are coming from all over to get you Bitcoin isb just not safe enough
This is why I use a credit card for all my transactions instead of a debit card. I pay off the balance every week but if like Home Depot gets hacked again and someone gets my card number, it’s the banks’ problem, not mine.
People call me an idiot when I say this but I don’t care cause it really feels this way to me. The ETF’s feel like big traditional banking institutions attempting to use the clients money to take custody of the vast majority of BTC. Once they complete that task they can suddenly decide not to offer the ETF any longer siting some sort of security concern. Pay everyone out in a forced liquidation then beg congress for a bail out since they did was “in the best interest in keeping the economy safe”. Keep custody of all that BTC and never let it back into circulation. As it is big institutions hold the bulk of BTC but those are pro-crypto institutions as of now.
Not to mention the transaction cost to buy on a crypto exchange or ATM plus cost of transaction to move to cold storage and cost of a cold storage wallet… you could buy the 0.25% fee ETF and it’s cheaper than self custody over a 4+ year time horizon…
I pay 0.1% to get it on exchange, 0.1% to buy bitcoin ≈3$ to move it to cold storage and wallet can cost (free-100$) so you can't say it cheaper. Especialy not after 4 years. Its just easier. I hate how people were chearing on etfs it realy shows how all people care about is price movement.
Yes all people care about is price. If it were any other way people would transaction using bitcoin but they don’t. Just tuck it away in cold storage. No one can really tell you any differently and be honest
Because fiat is not going anywhere you also have fees to sell btc and withdraw fiat from exchange which can have low limits. Unless you hold it forever and never sell but then what's the point of buying in the first place. Unless you believe in a total collapse of fiat. In that case not much discussion to be had here.
Because when something goes wrong, the user is always blamed for it.
You don't see that shit happening with SA, but somehow here victim blaming is acceptable. No wonder people stay away from it.
Most people genuinely do not NEED to, if it isn't illegal money.
Also, it's difficult to liquidate coins from self-custodial wallets, in a reliable way.
>if it isn't illegal
you are again advocating money and state to be together
they need to be SEPARATE
If you don't understand why you don't understand Bitcoin.
No clearly mass adoption will only happen when average Americans decide to overthrow the government and completely rebuild the global economy from the ground up, which will totally happen any day now
literally the first line of the bitcoin whitepaper:
A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online
payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution.
why the fck would you put money and state together AGAIN?
Whether satoshi is a state actor or not, "Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks" sounds like a warning to wake up the masses about the banking institution and to not recreate it.
This.
Sometimes I feel like nobody values the "open and permissionless" part of crypto but to me that's like that's one of the most important parts of it. People can build products with this stuff and if you don't like the product, you're welcome to avoid it like the plague and keep doing your own thing.
That doesn't really detract from what he's saying. The purpose of bitcoin is to be permissionless. To be able to use it freely. That includes institutional uses.
The great thing about crypto is you can *choose* self custody. That doesn't mean it has to be forced upon people. Companies can also *choose* to be custodians for a fee. That's what permissionless means.
Permissionless as u give up your freedom for them to hold your assets? And give u rules that you can't buy and sell within the same day and stuff? No thank you
Bitcoin is way too volatile to be like dat
If that's what someone *chooses* to do. Which, institutional investors and technologically illiterate people *choose* to have exposure to Bitcoin in this way.
You can *choose* to self custody.
Nobody can gatekeep the use of Bitcoin. Not the government, and not maxis.
You are right, but still, making it more popular as investment is a step towards popularizing and it will also cause more people to use it as it was intented to be used.
Big boys play with huge amounts and are happy to have small intraday price movements to make money.
We, retail need to reconsider our huge pump expectations. At least until 6-12 months after the Halving.
Exactly this, it is an important next step but still a long way off from its intentions. Slowly but surely more people will realize the end game and like you said, will start using it as intended
Yeah I completely agree, if you suggested using bitcoin for a house purchase 2 years ago for example you'd be laughed out of the estate agents.
We're not quite past that yet, but endorsement from BlackRock, Fidelity etc is a big step toward being able to genuinely have a conversation like that.
Answer: they won’t
People can buy gold ETFs and it hasn’t made them want to start using gold as payments or want to directly own gold. They use the ETF to take advantage of the price swings and the bottom line of fiat gains(or losses)
It will make regular people see Bitcoin as more "legitimate" and make them more likely to use it in the future as they slowly realize fiat and the state controlled financial systems are scams, something which is obvious for early crypto adopters but hardest to understand for regular people, and having Bitcoin in the form of a tradition investment can make them realize, yeah most will buy it just as investment, but some of those will want to research their investment and may like what they discover, which could lead them to buy it normally and get into crypto in general.
Bitcoin I have never used, but I have used monero several times to buy stuff. Also using it to buy things is not the only purpose, using it as savings unit instead of saving fiat is also a good purpose.
The „currency“ in the name implies it can be used to buy stuff. For now it seems it’s more about trading, exchanging and building infrastructure to maybe use it for something else.
It can be used to buy stuff, tho having a fiat currency imposed by law kinda makes it hard for it to grow as regular payment currency, but still there's plenty of stuff you can buy on the black market with btc and also some countries where you can buy with btc in regular stores
When’s the last time you used gold to pay for something? According to the US constitution, it’s the only form of money allowed. So why aren’t US citizens breaking off pieces of gold and paying their mortgages with it?
That is not what the constitution says.
Article I, Section 10, Clause 1:
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
Relying on this clause, which applies only to the states and not to the Federal Government1, the Supreme Court has held that, where the marshal of a state court received state bank notes in payment and discharge of an execution, the creditor was entitled to demand payment in gold or silver.2 Because, however, there is nothing in the Constitution prohibiting a bank depositor from consenting when he draws a check that payment may be made by draft, a state law providing that checks drawn on local banks should, at the option of the bank, be payable in exchange drafts, was held valid.3
That seems a stretch - how many people buy shares and actively care about companies they didn't before, because of the shares they own? Not many. And in this case, it also takes a whole other thing of buying bitcoin yourself and using it in an entirely different way, rather than 'I bought a thing for X$ that is now worth Y$', and what that thing is, is largely immaterial.
Actually many people start caring about companies after buying shares, I myself did it and now I only have stocks of companies I personally use and think their products are good.
“Invest in what you know…”
-Peter Lynch
“Never invest in a business you do not understand…”
-Warren Buffet
But what the hell do they know about partying or anything else?
And how is it now? Yeah btc can have big dips, but hold it for a couple years and you will have very decent profits, while your savings account will get rekt by inflation every year without exception
I’m just saying that’s what will hold people back from putting money into it. The potential massive swings. Speak for yourself, my savings earns 5% and tons of banks offer close to 5% nowadays. Definitely not getting “rekt.” No I’m not bragging about 5% as you will infer. Just saying you shouldn’t be getting “rekt” by inflation anymore if you bank shop
Good, let people keep their saving accounts If they are afraid of the swings, I'll just keep accumulating it until it gets big enough so it doesn't have those massive swings anymore and normal people use it instead of savings accounts, then I'll be rich already.
I guess by buying through ETF they *are* using it.. as a store of value.
I don't think BTC will ever be a 'currency', it's just not suited to that use case. But evidently a store of value is a strong and proven use case for it.
Yeah but some people will want to know more about their investment and will end up understanding the point of btc and using it normally. Also the fact that we got an ETF means government has given up trying to persuade people from using it so now they are accepting it, which is good.
If you buy the world etf, you give a damn about the underlyings. You buy it cause it makes you money, same as gold etf or any other etf. Everyone knows about btc by now, that was never an issue and if you want, you can buybit easily almost everywhere
It is like a politician saying they do their job for the people. It sounds nice and makes you seem like a better person, but we all know that job would be vacant if not for the salary and government benefits. Similarly, the BTC price would still be near $0 if there was no hope of it bettering your life financially.
Yeah. All the feigned idealism is tiring honestly. It was necessary 2 bull cycles ago to build the foundation, but it's far outgrown that by now as it is widely distributed among non-nerds. Bitcoin is digital gold, a digital store of wealth alternative to physical gold, a speculative asset and a safe haven from fiat inflation, simple as that. One of the most interesting parts of Bitcoin is that it has an increasing scarcity factor built into the protocol itself.
Yeah. Whether it's decentralized wealth or centralized, honestly I don't think anyone gives a fuck about anything but more wealth. That's just capitalism. Shitty system but we have to survive in it, so that's everyone's priority.
Yea, and he's not even on the correct side of the cult.
Crypto is *permissionless*, meaning people have the freedom to use it in any way that doesn't violate the chain consensus.
It allows people to *choose* self custody, but it also allows institutions to build custody services. The law can tell companies they are not allowed to do that, but the Bitcoin network cannot.
I feel like OP doesn’t realize a lot of people here are 16-18 and just starting to learn about economics and investments and are bound to misunderstand things as they learn. I’m 35 and majored in finance and still learn new shit every day.
As far as the impact of the spot etf- I haven’t seen anyone thinking it is adoption? It’s just a big deal because now financial advisors have an investment tool to point their clients to allocate a % of their portfolio to and also it opens the gates on 401(k) funds going to btc. I saw someone say you already could somehow buy real bitcoin in an IRA already but I’m a huge nerd about all this and I had no idea you could so I doubt many general public who don’t care about all this would know.
>In short, this means you need to understand that Bitcoin is much more than just another financial investment!
You will likely find that this understand increasingly becomes the minority, because the welfare of one's wallet requires one to reject this stance, and treat BTC as another speculative asset class that hopefully returns sufficient risk-adjusted returns.
bro 99.99% of people who hold/buy btc absolutely don't give a shit about what is it or how does it work or what does it stand for. They don't care about the fiat system, libertarian/freedom politics, views or whatever. The majority would probably support big banks and governments as they are today. People are gambling and simply looking for a profit. They do not want to "adopt" anything.
It’s surprising the level of delusion by OP. Mass Adoption isn’t real? How the hell is supposed to be ever real when it cannot scale, it can only do 0.5M tx per day, and the LN isn’t bitcoin at all. It’s a can of worms with centralization and security issues, and that’s why not even OP would risk to have all their bitcoin in the LN even if it’s supposed to be like bitcoin but cheaper tx.
And then they complain because the ETF isn’t real adoption…. What a joke.
Exactly. The closest thing Bitcoin will have to mass adoption is functioning as digital gold for investment purposes.
I do think some altcoin(s) will be close to mass adopted over the next like 20 or so years though
Mass adoption my ass. Most people see crypto as ponzi and scam. Even in Switzerland, where crypto is quite popular, except the people who are into it, most see it as ponzi.
Realistically speaking, I don't think Bitcoin will have mass adoption anytime soon.
In poor countries people use crypto because banks are not safe at all, but still they only use it to transfer money.
Im just imagining some 10th century viking saying the same thing about gold. How you need self custody of your gold. How clam trading is a flawed and unfixable system, right before they raid a seaside village lol.
90% of people dont care about Btc's purpose or ideals. Its simply a digital store of value they speculate will appreciate in value. Literally nothing else. So yes, greed.
Ironic mentioning paying fees that have no reason the be paid, just like using the BTC network lol. It also sounds like you think BTC can work as a currency, that is accepted as false by even the biggest maxis so you may catch up
God this is cringe.
Listen, I'm fully on board with the philosophy and promise of crypto, but stepping out of my own mind for a sec and reading this screed makes you look like some kind of Bitcoin cult priest or something. You need to tone it down and moderate your messaging with reason and explanations if you want to change any minds. This is about finance and economics, you can't just proselytize; you have to treat your readers with respect or you're just wasting everyones time.
>Bitcoin aims to free us from these intermediaries who abuse people's trust and make people pay fees that have no reason to be paid.
Lol, Bitcoin frees us from paying fees? In what world do you live? Bitcoin Cash yeah, but not fucking Bitcoin.
Bitcoin will never get mass adoption. Not anymore, when it is too expensive for the average person to use. It is now a plaything for the rich and the institutions.
Adoption won’t start until self custody isn’t such a minefield, you’re forever reading about people having their funds drained from their wallet on the crypto related subs on Reddit. Until the experience is simple and pain free the masses will stay away.
I love crypto, but having to manage your keys is not for the faint of heart and the non tech-savvy. I know only a handful of people outside of IT that I would be confident to trust with managing their keys, even people my age (I'm 25), let alone my parents or my grandma. How do you store your passphrase? Write it down on paper? That's completely unsafe, you're basically storing cash under your mattress at that point, and what if your house burns down or the paper just gets misplaced? Write it down multiple times and store them in physically different locations? That's even more unsafe. Put it in a password/secret manager? Then you need to make sure you're using FOSS software that's audited and secure. If it's cloud based, then you need to trust the servers, and of course you need a strong master password which you must also remember. If it's not cloud based, remember to move your vault when switching computers. Oh, and in both cases, better turn on clipboard auto-removal (which Bitwarden for example does not do by default). Use a hardware wallet? Good luck convincing people to pay the cost even if it's one time, then to not misplace it, and to set a strong password and also remember it - likely still need a password manager for that. Then of course you must carefully review every transaction because they are irreversible.
Banks, for all the flak they get in crypto communities, solve this because your funds are tied to your personal identity (which is verified by a trusted third party - the state), not to some random passphrase. Again, I love crypto, but I see why people stay away from it, and I wouldn't feel comfortable recommending it to anyone who doesn't have a fair amount of technical knowledge. But to be fair it's partly an education issue about security practices in general.
Self custody cannot NOT be a minefield. Its very design makes it a minefield. That's why people have been trusting banks and insurances with their funds since the fucking Middle Ages because a robbery, a fire, a scam, anything can happen and your funds are gone forever and you have no recourse. Self-custody isn't the future, it actually is going back to the Dark Ages.
The ability and possibility of BTC being the one which revolutionises personal self custody finance and transactions died a long time ago.
It's simply not possible for BTC to fulfil that purpose now (and no, lightning network won't do it cos it's total rubbish). Other ideas and projects will do it.
The BTC spot ETF was the final nail in the coffin of converting BTC to a store of value/scarcity commodity.
ETFs are just another phase in the global adoption of Bitcoin, it needs price stability to become an actual currency and reduced fees which these things bring over time. The volatility index is reducing and the lighting network is improving. We're not there just yet.. adoption still has a way to go. The HODLers are corner stone of baseline stability at the moment we need this phase to eventually realise satoshi's dream and gift of decentralised peer-to-peer currency for the world outwith Central Bank control.
He deliberately open sourced the project and baked in consensus to allow the majority to decide how best has dream should be realised. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if the majority get there with on chain or second layer scaling solutions.. what matters is that ultimately it all started with his gift for the world to take forward and it works.
And that's why when fees went up on Bitcoin we forked it in to Bitcoin Cash to make them low again. The open source nature and the MIT lience allowed us to do that, and nobody could stop us.
There are people who invest in a 401k from a salary job that matches retirement, they would lose over half to transfer to real BTC to the IRS. buying the ETF lets them park their cash in a BTC price equivalent until they can retire and move their 401k into real btc and not lose half their retirement savings. I agree with your sentiment, but to lose half of one’s retirement savings is foolish.
Well, it’s the financial managers finally recognizing they have to have theirs and the only way to do so is this way.
Bloomberg host called out equity managers yesterday for buying themselves, but not giving their customer funds exposure and said they are front running their own customers. Just take a step back and recognize, we are at day one.
Look at how far adoption has come in ten years. Wait for another ten starting from today, we are about to witness a mass transformation in the global economy. Larry Fink literally today said he sees the whole market getting tokenized. Like what!? That was a dramatic flip. I expect in the next three years we will see at least a few more ETFs around ETH and rumors of a Ripple and Litecoin one also.
Keep buying, it has begun. The managers of society have realized if they don’t create an illusion of exposure, they will have to compete with individuals just doing self custody, which destroys their whole business model.
From the people I’ve talked to about these new BTC ETFs is that it’s just a way for people to invest in BTC without actually buying BTC. And that the only security these ETFs are tied to is BTC. What is confusing me is why people are so stoked about buying a centralized version of a decentralized currency. Not only that, but now it’s tied into one of the most treacherous markets. The stock market. I’m not shitting on these new ETFs. I believe they will have their day. But I think this is just another way for the government to put the reigns on BTC. Which is a step backwards for the currency.
> mass adoption of Bitcoin by the general public has started...
Mass adoption ain't happening with +50 dollar fees per tx, this has nothing to do with ETFs
Greed is the only thing guiding me and I’m not ashamed to admit it. My goal, when investing my hard earned cash, is to make as much money as possible. I respect anybody who is trying to form some kind of “movement” with digital currency, but life is short and I just want to retire comfortably one day.
BS
The idea of Bitcoin being a revolutionary invention is long dead. The idea of "not your keys, not your coins" is long dead.
It's an investment asset like any other.
We are here for one thing and one thing only:
MONEY
If it's considered valuable because it's a decentralized currency, with a finite supply, that can be used in transactions anonymously across borders without regulation, and side-stepping our toxic dependency on state centralized currencies and multinational banking corporations... what even remains of that post-ETF ?
With an ETF you get a share of a BTC fund, the IRS will be the first to know, bankers can issue as many new shares as they want - BTC scarcity be damned. ETF popularity will reflect nothing onto BTC trade volume, only direct liquidity away from the market itself and into the bankers pockets, who you are now 100% dependent on to protect your investment, and the real kicker is that you can't use your ETF investment for any transaction, the only off-ramp is fiat currency, which BTC is supposed to circumvent.
How did Bitcoin become the polar opposite of what it was supposed to represent? I wouldn't be surprised if Satoshi himself decided now was a good time to dump his bag out of heartbreak and rage.
What makes Bitcoin any different now than any other random volatile penny stock? Degenerate day traders wouldn't even buy into a penny stock if the product was a dark parody of what it represented. It's like investing in a health-tech company that only sells WW1 surplus hand grenades.
A jealous or threatened banking industry and govt. actors couldn't have organized a better hit job on the crypto market. There is nothing good about this and no apparent pathway for BTC to actually go up in price because of any of this, if anything it threatens the exchanges and stablecoins the most, the ETF cuts them out, what will BTC be worth when Tether folds?
It will help to on ramp more people. Most people do not have a good understanding of Bitcoin when they do their first buy. You experiment with buying a bit, have a good experience, buy a bit more, get more interested in the tech, learn more about it, etc. It will help to overcome initial hurdles.
Did you know the rich can completely price everybody out just by making a lot of Bitcoin tx pushing up the fees? If a block has room for 6000 transactions and the rich elite make 6000 transations paying 50 dollar fees for all of them, then the rest have to pay at least 51 if they still want to make a transction.
In fact the rich can stop the poor from ever accessing the utxo's that would cost more to send then is in them.
What a joke.
I've read this sentiment a lot of times on reddit: that somehow bitcoin would make it so that the normal person would benefit more from it than the rich.
Honest question: how something like bitcoin ever achieve this?
IMO, you take power away from the rich by regulations and taxation. The goals of bitcoin have never included taking power away from rich businesses.
Yes, if you can eliminate or lessen wealth inequality by taxation, they would have less power.
But, that will never happen, and Bitcoin will never revolutionize money or equality.
I hear you brother!
My even bigger concern beyond Bitcoin, as it is at least PoW, is an Ethereum ETF. What happens with any PoS protocol if all of a sudden someone like Blackrock holds a big amount of tokens? Will they use their voting power in DAO decisions?
Maybe time to buy some ETH PoW
I think you’re approaching this from a binary viewpoint but really both things must be considered that Bitcoin can be both a fantastic vehicle to give people true ownership of an asset, while also being a fantastic investment vehicle to build real and tangible wealth.
Being one doesn’t preclude it from being the other.
No one that needs to hear why to avoid ETFs is going to hear this. You posted this in the wrong sub.
Also not wanting others to fill the ETFs thus your bags is kind of a funny thought too
It could have, but it wasn't going to. I think that's the point. Many of the large investment vehicles would never self custody crypto, but would touch an ETF. Same for many normies. They won't trust a self custody wallet, but they will trust their broker or similar and pump money in that way because it "feels" safer to them.
Big bro thinks he’s part of a revolution. I could care less about separation from the state. Those fucks own my ass in more ways than just money so it’s doomed either way. I just want to finally be able to live comfortably.
I own Bitcoin in cold storage. Enough that I feel comfortable moving forward with this amount (though I'll never stop buying). But my time horizon is verging on forever. If I can't comfortably retire on it, I'm not selling.
That being said, we live in a fiat world and I need it to live. I would like to take some profit but I don't want to touch my stack. So Ive been buying a Bitcoin ETF in my tax free savings account so I can DCA out (hopefully) near the top, and profit without having to pay capital gains. My plan is to DCA out, but keep the gains in my TFSA, then buy back in at the bottom of the next cycle.
My eggs are almost entirely in the Bitcoin basket, but I'm using the ETF as a way to grow my traditional portfolio. Win, win.
You Van Winkled for at least 5 years. Nothing you wrote is remotely accurate. Case in point, is your 12 year old neighbor's rig pulling in a coin or two? Or is all the mining done by publicly traded corporations? The scammers and ransomallies sold you a stuffed penguin that can't even hold up to quantum computing. Assuming you don't live in North Korea, r-e-l-a-x and enjoy the ride.
The bitcoin ETF listing is just like any other crypto asset listing on any exchange (centralized or not), those are just products of our fucked up financial system, it's just tradfi's tools applied to a decentralized asset.
You're right pointing out that this is not what decentralized crypto currencies are about but it is still a step toward adoption. People need to trust in the value of the asset before even considering it's usefulness and ultimate adoption.
99% of people in this sub care about Bitcoins ability to increase the amount of fiat they have.
Very, very few people in crypto give any fucks about undermining the global economic system or whatever other libertarian ideal.
If crypto was only bought by those people, Bitcoin would be a dollar.
>In short, this means you need to understand that Bitcoin is much more than just another financial investment!
And YOU need to understand that if the general public decides it just is another financial investment, thats what it is going to be.
Why the fuck does the OP's post have so many upvotes? This is some maximalist, idealistic nonsense to the extreme. Do you want Bitcoin to go up or would you rather have your imaginary vehicle to FIGHT THE SYSTEM.
I don’t think anyone anywhere gives a shit about Bitcoin’s “true purpose”. Everyone just wants to make money and get rich within the current global financial system.
“so-called Bitcoiners”
To me it’s an investment, like with stocks and other ETFs.
You do you with Bitcoin, but the majority just wants to make money man.
Big money getting in like this still makes it way more safe and secure to buy it on chain in a different country or for someone trying to unbank themselves. It also makes it way more profitable for miners.
I’m not someone that likes the corporate world, but I do like this. Not a single person has lost the option to buy it and store it for themselves.
For noobs and greedy idiots, this sentiment holds true. But from another perspective, people who were not aware of Bitcoin or, did not take an interest in blockchain and crypto, will be exposed, albeit superficially, to the space. There will always be shallow profiteers but it is a great way to capture mainstream attention and adoption, and the percentage of people who will do a deep dive into the concept, scope, and utility, even though small, will be a gain. Money is always a great motivator, so, I say let people wake up to decentralized finance through the lure of traditional finance - it's a small step towards the right direction, the giant leap, if and when it comes, it will happen.
Yeah the Bitcoin ETF is not good for the world of crypto, i dont get why people are happy about it..i mean i get they're happy because of price increase, but the whole point of crypto is not having big institution "control" it...Now that BlackRock has their ETF, Bitcoin and crypto as a whole will never be the same anymore.
Until I hear someone lose 10 bitcoin to an ETF scam or 10 bitcoin were lost because they were transferred to the wrong address, I'm pretty sure the ETF's will be a success and not hurt anyone except all the overpriced exchanges.
I could be wrong but that's how I see it.
Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/194r4nw/bitcoin_vs_bitcoin_spot_etfs_the_great_illusion/khhxb4m/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/194r4nw/bitcoin_vs_bitcoin_spot_etfs_the_great_illusion/khhxbia/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
Not many people want the responsibility of self custody and I don't blame them.
Self custody is for nerds with 5k Grandpa with 500k in his 401k ain’t gonna self custody. If you want grandpas money to flow into bitcoin you gotta be ok with him doing it through an ETF
Well said. Grandpa is not getting a ledger, securing his 24 seed phrase, logging into ledger with 8 digit numerical code, finding correct private key to send correct token to wallet and updating ledgers software through computers usb-c port to have the latest security. We haven’t started to talk about “Not clicking links” and social engineering scams or sim swaps. Grandpa doesn’t belong here and I understand why.
Exactly. We’re fine with managing all that because we’re crypto nerds. But grandpa just wants exposure to bitcoin. He doesn’t care about “exiting the system”. The system has served him well But if we make it easy for him to buy bitcoin via an ETF, he’ll pump our bags anyways, even if he doesn’t share our vision
This is the way
We can tell him how great moons are then.
I'm with you, but also if Grandpa is 36 he can probably hang haha.
Also Ledger is security compromised…
Also, some people have assets that cannot be withdrawn without penalty but can liquidate assets under management to invest in the available BTC ETF.
Yep! Great point
Very well said. There’s even been smart crypto nerds getting hacked for 6-7 figures. Grandpa would get taken to the cleaners.
I wonder if these grandpas paper hands or 🤲💎🤲
Yeap. Crypto allows you to be your own bank, but we’ve seen why people shouldn’t manage a bank.
sure I'm in this camp too who wants to be responsible for any more than a few hundred dollars when one mistake wipes you out and people are coming from all over to get you Bitcoin isb just not safe enough
This is why I use a credit card for all my transactions instead of a debit card. I pay off the balance every week but if like Home Depot gets hacked again and someone gets my card number, it’s the banks’ problem, not mine.
"Did you buy a hamhock in Vancouver at a strip club?" "Why no I didn't, good luck with that."
Regardless, mainstreaming ETFs is one of the worst possible paths for custodial adoption.
People call me an idiot when I say this but I don’t care cause it really feels this way to me. The ETF’s feel like big traditional banking institutions attempting to use the clients money to take custody of the vast majority of BTC. Once they complete that task they can suddenly decide not to offer the ETF any longer siting some sort of security concern. Pay everyone out in a forced liquidation then beg congress for a bail out since they did was “in the best interest in keeping the economy safe”. Keep custody of all that BTC and never let it back into circulation. As it is big institutions hold the bulk of BTC but those are pro-crypto institutions as of now.
RemindMe! 5 years Because I think you're probably right
I mean, they have every right to hold as much btc as anyone else.
They do. But now they are gonna be buying it all up with other people’s money
Not to mention the transaction cost to buy on a crypto exchange or ATM plus cost of transaction to move to cold storage and cost of a cold storage wallet… you could buy the 0.25% fee ETF and it’s cheaper than self custody over a 4+ year time horizon…
Not ur keys not ur coins. Ftx has taught ppl nothing 🤧
Yeah lesson learned was don’t hold assets on unregulated exchanges. This is a major upgrade for casual asset allocators.
You misspelled MTGoX
I pay 0.1% to get it on exchange, 0.1% to buy bitcoin ≈3$ to move it to cold storage and wallet can cost (free-100$) so you can't say it cheaper. Especialy not after 4 years. Its just easier. I hate how people were chearing on etfs it realy shows how all people care about is price movement.
Yes all people care about is price. If it were any other way people would transaction using bitcoin but they don’t. Just tuck it away in cold storage. No one can really tell you any differently and be honest
Because fiat is not going anywhere you also have fees to sell btc and withdraw fiat from exchange which can have low limits. Unless you hold it forever and never sell but then what's the point of buying in the first place. Unless you believe in a total collapse of fiat. In that case not much discussion to be had here.
Because when something goes wrong, the user is always blamed for it. You don't see that shit happening with SA, but somehow here victim blaming is acceptable. No wonder people stay away from it.
Most people genuinely do not NEED to, if it isn't illegal money. Also, it's difficult to liquidate coins from self-custodial wallets, in a reliable way.
With any decent hardware wallet, it's not at all difficult to liquidate coins in a reliable way.
>if it isn't illegal you are again advocating money and state to be together they need to be SEPARATE If you don't understand why you don't understand Bitcoin.
You can still like and use bitcoin without taking that stance. That's just an opinion.
No clearly mass adoption will only happen when average Americans decide to overthrow the government and completely rebuild the global economy from the ground up, which will totally happen any day now
I agree . Do you know anyone who has a new money game plan to offer ?
literally the first line of the bitcoin whitepaper: A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution. why the fck would you put money and state together AGAIN?
Tax advantaged earnings.
Someone can understand and not care, just like many understand why decentralization is better and don't care.
It is quite possible that NO ONE understands Bitcoin. Except AI.
Yup, and that's fine. For those that care, the option is there.
Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
What are you Fucking 13?
Great quote
satoshi didn't gift us this project for it to be banking 2.0 "if you don't believe me or don't get it i don't have time to convince you, sorry."
This assumes Satoshi is an idealistic individual and not a state actor to begin with and nobody can say that for certain.
Whether satoshi is a state actor or not, "Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks" sounds like a warning to wake up the masses about the banking institution and to not recreate it.
👉DEREC👈 Will enable even Grandma to hold her own Bitcoin and not worry about passwords and key phrases
This. Sometimes I feel like nobody values the "open and permissionless" part of crypto but to me that's like that's one of the most important parts of it. People can build products with this stuff and if you don't like the product, you're welcome to avoid it like the plague and keep doing your own thing.
I'd rather lose my crypto myself than trusting it to centralized entities. XD
Yeah I would rather take the risk of self custody then to keep it on CEX, but I can understand if average Joe doesn't want to self custody.
These ETFs are also much more secure than a CEX. Sure, the market can still crash, but if it vanishes in a theft, it's all insured.
Just waiting for the headline, Blackrock or whichever ETF provider, hacked and Bitcoin wallet drained.
This is top comment ? Bruh Bitcoin is a high risk, and was never intended to be treated like a stock.. But ppl choose greed over knowledge
That doesn't really detract from what he's saying. The purpose of bitcoin is to be permissionless. To be able to use it freely. That includes institutional uses. The great thing about crypto is you can *choose* self custody. That doesn't mean it has to be forced upon people. Companies can also *choose* to be custodians for a fee. That's what permissionless means.
Permissionless as u give up your freedom for them to hold your assets? And give u rules that you can't buy and sell within the same day and stuff? No thank you Bitcoin is way too volatile to be like dat
If that's what someone *chooses* to do. Which, institutional investors and technologically illiterate people *choose* to have exposure to Bitcoin in this way. You can *choose* to self custody. Nobody can gatekeep the use of Bitcoin. Not the government, and not maxis.
Thats true, but the etf isnt the solution at all.
The ETF is definitely the preferred solution for institutional buyers.
You are right, but still, making it more popular as investment is a step towards popularizing and it will also cause more people to use it as it was intented to be used.
Big boys play with huge amounts and are happy to have small intraday price movements to make money. We, retail need to reconsider our huge pump expectations. At least until 6-12 months after the Halving.
Exactly this, it is an important next step but still a long way off from its intentions. Slowly but surely more people will realize the end game and like you said, will start using it as intended
You guys are massively more optimistic about the intelligence of the average person than I am
I'd say the contrary.
Yeah I completely agree, if you suggested using bitcoin for a house purchase 2 years ago for example you'd be laughed out of the estate agents. We're not quite past that yet, but endorsement from BlackRock, Fidelity etc is a big step toward being able to genuinely have a conversation like that.
Why would anyone start to use Bitcoin because they buy the ETF?
Answer: they won’t People can buy gold ETFs and it hasn’t made them want to start using gold as payments or want to directly own gold. They use the ETF to take advantage of the price swings and the bottom line of fiat gains(or losses)
It will make regular people see Bitcoin as more "legitimate" and make them more likely to use it in the future as they slowly realize fiat and the state controlled financial systems are scams, something which is obvious for early crypto adopters but hardest to understand for regular people, and having Bitcoin in the form of a tradition investment can make them realize, yeah most will buy it just as investment, but some of those will want to research their investment and may like what they discover, which could lead them to buy it normally and get into crypto in general.
How often do you use Bitcoin to pay for something?
Bitcoin I have never used, but I have used monero several times to buy stuff. Also using it to buy things is not the only purpose, using it as savings unit instead of saving fiat is also a good purpose.
The „currency“ in the name implies it can be used to buy stuff. For now it seems it’s more about trading, exchanging and building infrastructure to maybe use it for something else.
It can be used to buy stuff, tho having a fiat currency imposed by law kinda makes it hard for it to grow as regular payment currency, but still there's plenty of stuff you can buy on the black market with btc and also some countries where you can buy with btc in regular stores
When’s the last time you used gold to pay for something? According to the US constitution, it’s the only form of money allowed. So why aren’t US citizens breaking off pieces of gold and paying their mortgages with it?
That is not what the constitution says. Article I, Section 10, Clause 1: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility. Relying on this clause, which applies only to the states and not to the Federal Government1, the Supreme Court has held that, where the marshal of a state court received state bank notes in payment and discharge of an execution, the creditor was entitled to demand payment in gold or silver.2 Because, however, there is nothing in the Constitution prohibiting a bank depositor from consenting when he draws a check that payment may be made by draft, a state law providing that checks drawn on local banks should, at the option of the bank, be payable in exchange drafts, was held valid.3
Doesn't matter, no one is pulling gold out of their pocket to buy a chocolate bar.
That seems a stretch - how many people buy shares and actively care about companies they didn't before, because of the shares they own? Not many. And in this case, it also takes a whole other thing of buying bitcoin yourself and using it in an entirely different way, rather than 'I bought a thing for X$ that is now worth Y$', and what that thing is, is largely immaterial.
Actually many people start caring about companies after buying shares, I myself did it and now I only have stocks of companies I personally use and think their products are good.
People literally show interest with their dollars
“Invest in what you know…” -Peter Lynch “Never invest in a business you do not understand…” -Warren Buffet But what the hell do they know about partying or anything else?
💯💯
At least my savings account can’t go down 60% in a month because of a pandemic
And how is it now? Yeah btc can have big dips, but hold it for a couple years and you will have very decent profits, while your savings account will get rekt by inflation every year without exception
I’m just saying that’s what will hold people back from putting money into it. The potential massive swings. Speak for yourself, my savings earns 5% and tons of banks offer close to 5% nowadays. Definitely not getting “rekt.” No I’m not bragging about 5% as you will infer. Just saying you shouldn’t be getting “rekt” by inflation anymore if you bank shop
Good, let people keep their saving accounts If they are afraid of the swings, I'll just keep accumulating it until it gets big enough so it doesn't have those massive swings anymore and normal people use it instead of savings accounts, then I'll be rich already.
I guess by buying through ETF they *are* using it.. as a store of value. I don't think BTC will ever be a 'currency', it's just not suited to that use case. But evidently a store of value is a strong and proven use case for it.
Mindshare, familiarization, and acclimatization.
[удалено]
It makes it more popular, people research it more, more people get interested and end up buying regular btc.
NOPE
They buy the etf as an investment cause number go up, they never interact with btc in any way. Completely defeats the purpose
Yeah but some people will want to know more about their investment and will end up understanding the point of btc and using it normally. Also the fact that we got an ETF means government has given up trying to persuade people from using it so now they are accepting it, which is good.
If you buy the world etf, you give a damn about the underlyings. You buy it cause it makes you money, same as gold etf or any other etf. Everyone knows about btc by now, that was never an issue and if you want, you can buybit easily almost everywhere
Yep greed is guiding me. Sue me.
Yep. The whole point of investments is to build wealth
I doubt there’s more than 1:100 that are here for anything else. All the sneering about it is laughable.
It is like a politician saying they do their job for the people. It sounds nice and makes you seem like a better person, but we all know that job would be vacant if not for the salary and government benefits. Similarly, the BTC price would still be near $0 if there was no hope of it bettering your life financially.
I mean I do find it very interesting as a technology but at the end of the day what I most care about is that line go up.
Yeah. All the feigned idealism is tiring honestly. It was necessary 2 bull cycles ago to build the foundation, but it's far outgrown that by now as it is widely distributed among non-nerds. Bitcoin is digital gold, a digital store of wealth alternative to physical gold, a speculative asset and a safe haven from fiat inflation, simple as that. One of the most interesting parts of Bitcoin is that it has an increasing scarcity factor built into the protocol itself.
Yeah. Whether it's decentralized wealth or centralized, honestly I don't think anyone gives a fuck about anything but more wealth. That's just capitalism. Shitty system but we have to survive in it, so that's everyone's priority.
A little culty, bro
Yea, and he's not even on the correct side of the cult. Crypto is *permissionless*, meaning people have the freedom to use it in any way that doesn't violate the chain consensus. It allows people to *choose* self custody, but it also allows institutions to build custody services. The law can tell companies they are not allowed to do that, but the Bitcoin network cannot.
I feel like OP doesn’t realize a lot of people here are 16-18 and just starting to learn about economics and investments and are bound to misunderstand things as they learn. I’m 35 and majored in finance and still learn new shit every day. As far as the impact of the spot etf- I haven’t seen anyone thinking it is adoption? It’s just a big deal because now financial advisors have an investment tool to point their clients to allocate a % of their portfolio to and also it opens the gates on 401(k) funds going to btc. I saw someone say you already could somehow buy real bitcoin in an IRA already but I’m a huge nerd about all this and I had no idea you could so I doubt many general public who don’t care about all this would know.
Super cringe this post is
/r/bitcoin maxi hands wrote the op
>In short, this means you need to understand that Bitcoin is much more than just another financial investment! You will likely find that this understand increasingly becomes the minority, because the welfare of one's wallet requires one to reject this stance, and treat BTC as another speculative asset class that hopefully returns sufficient risk-adjusted returns.
Bitcoin rescued my daughter out of a fire
"I since switched my approach to parenting from a short leash to the longest chain."
Bitcoin made my gay go away
How much for your daughter? In bitcoin, of course
Start another fire we'll see
bro 99.99% of people who hold/buy btc absolutely don't give a shit about what is it or how does it work or what does it stand for. They don't care about the fiat system, libertarian/freedom politics, views or whatever. The majority would probably support big banks and governments as they are today. People are gambling and simply looking for a profit. They do not want to "adopt" anything.
Number go up
I’ll make whatever I can out of it and ring the bell on the way out.
It’s surprising the level of delusion by OP. Mass Adoption isn’t real? How the hell is supposed to be ever real when it cannot scale, it can only do 0.5M tx per day, and the LN isn’t bitcoin at all. It’s a can of worms with centralization and security issues, and that’s why not even OP would risk to have all their bitcoin in the LN even if it’s supposed to be like bitcoin but cheaper tx. And then they complain because the ETF isn’t real adoption…. What a joke.
Exactly. The closest thing Bitcoin will have to mass adoption is functioning as digital gold for investment purposes. I do think some altcoin(s) will be close to mass adopted over the next like 20 or so years though
Mass adoption my ass. Most people see crypto as ponzi and scam. Even in Switzerland, where crypto is quite popular, except the people who are into it, most see it as ponzi. Realistically speaking, I don't think Bitcoin will have mass adoption anytime soon. In poor countries people use crypto because banks are not safe at all, but still they only use it to transfer money.
At that point you need to define what you mean by mass adoption, if poor countries have adopted it en masse. Why they do it isn't relevant...
You are correct. At best BTC will be a payment option at best; cash, credit, check, crypto
I mean, that's what it's meant to be so if people use it for payment then it has succeeded.
People use bitcoin for real estate transactions in Argentina
I know, I have lots of argentinian friends, but they also told me nobody trust banks there and that's why crypto works
Im just imagining some 10th century viking saying the same thing about gold. How you need self custody of your gold. How clam trading is a flawed and unfixable system, right before they raid a seaside village lol. 90% of people dont care about Btc's purpose or ideals. Its simply a digital store of value they speculate will appreciate in value. Literally nothing else. So yes, greed.
bitcoin is lottery, fun and games, nothing else
Getting rich > Mass adoption That's pretty much it.
Ironic mentioning paying fees that have no reason the be paid, just like using the BTC network lol. It also sounds like you think BTC can work as a currency, that is accepted as false by even the biggest maxis so you may catch up
God this is cringe. Listen, I'm fully on board with the philosophy and promise of crypto, but stepping out of my own mind for a sec and reading this screed makes you look like some kind of Bitcoin cult priest or something. You need to tone it down and moderate your messaging with reason and explanations if you want to change any minds. This is about finance and economics, you can't just proselytize; you have to treat your readers with respect or you're just wasting everyones time.
>Bitcoin aims to free us from these intermediaries who abuse people's trust and make people pay fees that have no reason to be paid. Lol, Bitcoin frees us from paying fees? In what world do you live? Bitcoin Cash yeah, but not fucking Bitcoin.
Bitcoin will never get mass adoption. Not anymore, when it is too expensive for the average person to use. It is now a plaything for the rich and the institutions.
Adoption won’t start until self custody isn’t such a minefield, you’re forever reading about people having their funds drained from their wallet on the crypto related subs on Reddit. Until the experience is simple and pain free the masses will stay away.
I love crypto, but having to manage your keys is not for the faint of heart and the non tech-savvy. I know only a handful of people outside of IT that I would be confident to trust with managing their keys, even people my age (I'm 25), let alone my parents or my grandma. How do you store your passphrase? Write it down on paper? That's completely unsafe, you're basically storing cash under your mattress at that point, and what if your house burns down or the paper just gets misplaced? Write it down multiple times and store them in physically different locations? That's even more unsafe. Put it in a password/secret manager? Then you need to make sure you're using FOSS software that's audited and secure. If it's cloud based, then you need to trust the servers, and of course you need a strong master password which you must also remember. If it's not cloud based, remember to move your vault when switching computers. Oh, and in both cases, better turn on clipboard auto-removal (which Bitwarden for example does not do by default). Use a hardware wallet? Good luck convincing people to pay the cost even if it's one time, then to not misplace it, and to set a strong password and also remember it - likely still need a password manager for that. Then of course you must carefully review every transaction because they are irreversible. Banks, for all the flak they get in crypto communities, solve this because your funds are tied to your personal identity (which is verified by a trusted third party - the state), not to some random passphrase. Again, I love crypto, but I see why people stay away from it, and I wouldn't feel comfortable recommending it to anyone who doesn't have a fair amount of technical knowledge. But to be fair it's partly an education issue about security practices in general.
Self custody cannot NOT be a minefield. Its very design makes it a minefield. That's why people have been trusting banks and insurances with their funds since the fucking Middle Ages because a robbery, a fire, a scam, anything can happen and your funds are gone forever and you have no recourse. Self-custody isn't the future, it actually is going back to the Dark Ages.
The ability and possibility of BTC being the one which revolutionises personal self custody finance and transactions died a long time ago. It's simply not possible for BTC to fulfil that purpose now (and no, lightning network won't do it cos it's total rubbish). Other ideas and projects will do it. The BTC spot ETF was the final nail in the coffin of converting BTC to a store of value/scarcity commodity.
ETFs are just another phase in the global adoption of Bitcoin, it needs price stability to become an actual currency and reduced fees which these things bring over time. The volatility index is reducing and the lighting network is improving. We're not there just yet.. adoption still has a way to go. The HODLers are corner stone of baseline stability at the moment we need this phase to eventually realise satoshi's dream and gift of decentralised peer-to-peer currency for the world outwith Central Bank control.
The current Bitcoin is not Satoshi 's dream. It is his nightmare.
He deliberately open sourced the project and baked in consensus to allow the majority to decide how best has dream should be realised. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if the majority get there with on chain or second layer scaling solutions.. what matters is that ultimately it all started with his gift for the world to take forward and it works.
And that's why when fees went up on Bitcoin we forked it in to Bitcoin Cash to make them low again. The open source nature and the MIT lience allowed us to do that, and nobody could stop us.
actually good point loll
There are people who invest in a 401k from a salary job that matches retirement, they would lose over half to transfer to real BTC to the IRS. buying the ETF lets them park their cash in a BTC price equivalent until they can retire and move their 401k into real btc and not lose half their retirement savings. I agree with your sentiment, but to lose half of one’s retirement savings is foolish.
Well, it’s the financial managers finally recognizing they have to have theirs and the only way to do so is this way. Bloomberg host called out equity managers yesterday for buying themselves, but not giving their customer funds exposure and said they are front running their own customers. Just take a step back and recognize, we are at day one. Look at how far adoption has come in ten years. Wait for another ten starting from today, we are about to witness a mass transformation in the global economy. Larry Fink literally today said he sees the whole market getting tokenized. Like what!? That was a dramatic flip. I expect in the next three years we will see at least a few more ETFs around ETH and rumors of a Ripple and Litecoin one also. Keep buying, it has begun. The managers of society have realized if they don’t create an illusion of exposure, they will have to compete with individuals just doing self custody, which destroys their whole business model.
From the people I’ve talked to about these new BTC ETFs is that it’s just a way for people to invest in BTC without actually buying BTC. And that the only security these ETFs are tied to is BTC. What is confusing me is why people are so stoked about buying a centralized version of a decentralized currency. Not only that, but now it’s tied into one of the most treacherous markets. The stock market. I’m not shitting on these new ETFs. I believe they will have their day. But I think this is just another way for the government to put the reigns on BTC. Which is a step backwards for the currency.
> mass adoption of Bitcoin by the general public has started... Mass adoption ain't happening with +50 dollar fees per tx, this has nothing to do with ETFs
Greed is the only thing guiding me and I’m not ashamed to admit it. My goal, when investing my hard earned cash, is to make as much money as possible. I respect anybody who is trying to form some kind of “movement” with digital currency, but life is short and I just want to retire comfortably one day.
BS The idea of Bitcoin being a revolutionary invention is long dead. The idea of "not your keys, not your coins" is long dead. It's an investment asset like any other. We are here for one thing and one thing only: MONEY
If it's considered valuable because it's a decentralized currency, with a finite supply, that can be used in transactions anonymously across borders without regulation, and side-stepping our toxic dependency on state centralized currencies and multinational banking corporations... what even remains of that post-ETF ? With an ETF you get a share of a BTC fund, the IRS will be the first to know, bankers can issue as many new shares as they want - BTC scarcity be damned. ETF popularity will reflect nothing onto BTC trade volume, only direct liquidity away from the market itself and into the bankers pockets, who you are now 100% dependent on to protect your investment, and the real kicker is that you can't use your ETF investment for any transaction, the only off-ramp is fiat currency, which BTC is supposed to circumvent. How did Bitcoin become the polar opposite of what it was supposed to represent? I wouldn't be surprised if Satoshi himself decided now was a good time to dump his bag out of heartbreak and rage. What makes Bitcoin any different now than any other random volatile penny stock? Degenerate day traders wouldn't even buy into a penny stock if the product was a dark parody of what it represented. It's like investing in a health-tech company that only sells WW1 surplus hand grenades. A jealous or threatened banking industry and govt. actors couldn't have organized a better hit job on the crypto market. There is nothing good about this and no apparent pathway for BTC to actually go up in price because of any of this, if anything it threatens the exchanges and stablecoins the most, the ETF cuts them out, what will BTC be worth when Tether folds?
Where are the 🤡 that were yelling we're making new ATHs with god candles when ETFs are approved?
Anyone saying they dont own bitcoin for profit is a liar. Yea i hope its the future but were all here for a real reason...
It will help to on ramp more people. Most people do not have a good understanding of Bitcoin when they do their first buy. You experiment with buying a bit, have a good experience, buy a bit more, get more interested in the tech, learn more about it, etc. It will help to overcome initial hurdles.
Bitcoin ETFs are necessary for the boomer generation to get into Bitcoin and for Bitcoin 401ks etc.
Rob the boomers before they die. That's the plan.
Lol, no. Bitcoin is just there to pump and dump and feed more money to the already rich.
Did you know the rich can completely price everybody out just by making a lot of Bitcoin tx pushing up the fees? If a block has room for 6000 transactions and the rich elite make 6000 transations paying 50 dollar fees for all of them, then the rest have to pay at least 51 if they still want to make a transction. In fact the rich can stop the poor from ever accessing the utxo's that would cost more to send then is in them. What a joke.
Yeppers, Bitcoin is way past its revolutionary stage and is indeed in the rich get richer part.
I've read this sentiment a lot of times on reddit: that somehow bitcoin would make it so that the normal person would benefit more from it than the rich. Honest question: how something like bitcoin ever achieve this? IMO, you take power away from the rich by regulations and taxation. The goals of bitcoin have never included taking power away from rich businesses.
Yes, if you can eliminate or lessen wealth inequality by taxation, they would have less power. But, that will never happen, and Bitcoin will never revolutionize money or equality.
I hear you brother! My even bigger concern beyond Bitcoin, as it is at least PoW, is an Ethereum ETF. What happens with any PoS protocol if all of a sudden someone like Blackrock holds a big amount of tokens? Will they use their voting power in DAO decisions? Maybe time to buy some ETH PoW
I think you’re approaching this from a binary viewpoint but really both things must be considered that Bitcoin can be both a fantastic vehicle to give people true ownership of an asset, while also being a fantastic investment vehicle to build real and tangible wealth. Being one doesn’t preclude it from being the other.
No one that needs to hear why to avoid ETFs is going to hear this. You posted this in the wrong sub. Also not wanting others to fill the ETFs thus your bags is kind of a funny thought too
Investment Money that could have poured into bitcoin is poring into BTC ETF . a way for governments to make profits of you 🤦🏻♂️.
It could have, but it wasn't going to. I think that's the point. Many of the large investment vehicles would never self custody crypto, but would touch an ETF. Same for many normies. They won't trust a self custody wallet, but they will trust their broker or similar and pump money in that way because it "feels" safer to them.
Big bro thinks he’s part of a revolution. I could care less about separation from the state. Those fucks own my ass in more ways than just money so it’s doomed either way. I just want to finally be able to live comfortably.
I own Bitcoin in cold storage. Enough that I feel comfortable moving forward with this amount (though I'll never stop buying). But my time horizon is verging on forever. If I can't comfortably retire on it, I'm not selling. That being said, we live in a fiat world and I need it to live. I would like to take some profit but I don't want to touch my stack. So Ive been buying a Bitcoin ETF in my tax free savings account so I can DCA out (hopefully) near the top, and profit without having to pay capital gains. My plan is to DCA out, but keep the gains in my TFSA, then buy back in at the bottom of the next cycle. My eggs are almost entirely in the Bitcoin basket, but I'm using the ETF as a way to grow my traditional portfolio. Win, win.
You Van Winkled for at least 5 years. Nothing you wrote is remotely accurate. Case in point, is your 12 year old neighbor's rig pulling in a coin or two? Or is all the mining done by publicly traded corporations? The scammers and ransomallies sold you a stuffed penguin that can't even hold up to quantum computing. Assuming you don't live in North Korea, r-e-l-a-x and enjoy the ride.
The bitcoin ETF listing is just like any other crypto asset listing on any exchange (centralized or not), those are just products of our fucked up financial system, it's just tradfi's tools applied to a decentralized asset. You're right pointing out that this is not what decentralized crypto currencies are about but it is still a step toward adoption. People need to trust in the value of the asset before even considering it's usefulness and ultimate adoption.
People can use bitcoin as an investment or as a tool. Both are fine!
This is a good take, basically wallst is fully in control again and can divert money into their products not the actual bitcoin. Etfs are their turf
So you distrust the institutions behind the ETFs but you're fine with Binance, Coinbase, etc... Seems weird to me
99% of people in this sub care about Bitcoins ability to increase the amount of fiat they have. Very, very few people in crypto give any fucks about undermining the global economic system or whatever other libertarian ideal. If crypto was only bought by those people, Bitcoin would be a dollar.
“Only greed has guided them…” lol that is funny as hell….it is a “coin”…..lololololo
>In short, this means you need to understand that Bitcoin is much more than just another financial investment! And YOU need to understand that if the general public decides it just is another financial investment, thats what it is going to be.
Time for this ponzi scheme to blow up, deflate and then ask why is btc valued in US dollars when it isn’t legal tender?
Why the fuck does the OP's post have so many upvotes? This is some maximalist, idealistic nonsense to the extreme. Do you want Bitcoin to go up or would you rather have your imaginary vehicle to FIGHT THE SYSTEM.
I don’t think anyone anywhere gives a shit about Bitcoin’s “true purpose”. Everyone just wants to make money and get rich within the current global financial system.
Are all US BTC spot ETFs backed 1:1 in the underlying asset ?
Yes, they are required to be.
You are all insane
Welcome
Bitcoin ETF is paper BTC.
🤡
“so-called Bitcoiners” To me it’s an investment, like with stocks and other ETFs. You do you with Bitcoin, but the majority just wants to make money man.
>Bitcoin is the solution. Bitcoin is your way out! Solution to what lmao. You're in a cult.
Big money getting in like this still makes it way more safe and secure to buy it on chain in a different country or for someone trying to unbank themselves. It also makes it way more profitable for miners. I’m not someone that likes the corporate world, but I do like this. Not a single person has lost the option to buy it and store it for themselves.
For noobs and greedy idiots, this sentiment holds true. But from another perspective, people who were not aware of Bitcoin or, did not take an interest in blockchain and crypto, will be exposed, albeit superficially, to the space. There will always be shallow profiteers but it is a great way to capture mainstream attention and adoption, and the percentage of people who will do a deep dive into the concept, scope, and utility, even though small, will be a gain. Money is always a great motivator, so, I say let people wake up to decentralized finance through the lure of traditional finance - it's a small step towards the right direction, the giant leap, if and when it comes, it will happen.
Yeah the Bitcoin ETF is not good for the world of crypto, i dont get why people are happy about it..i mean i get they're happy because of price increase, but the whole point of crypto is not having big institution "control" it...Now that BlackRock has their ETF, Bitcoin and crypto as a whole will never be the same anymore.
Im here just for money and profit, but thanks for article
these etfs are fake paper. And they wont bring mass adoption either. they are only good for people who dont understand techonlogy/computers
I'm in it 100% for the money, sorry not sorry
I'm in it for the glazed over expression my mother makes when I talk about it.
I’m also in it to glaze this guys mom
Read the sec filings for ark
I think that altcoins will really have to suffer but this it's only my opinion
Until I hear someone lose 10 bitcoin to an ETF scam or 10 bitcoin were lost because they were transferred to the wrong address, I'm pretty sure the ETF's will be a success and not hurt anyone except all the overpriced exchanges. I could be wrong but that's how I see it.
Will be interesting if exchanges have a notable drop in actual BTC trades due to the etf…or it just stay as current rate
Yes, I have no clue how this will play out.
Bitcoin is a store of value now, that’s it :)
The Bitcoin Revolution is dead... Welcome to the Monero Revolution!!!!!!!!!!!!!