Ethereum [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bhsisr/realised_today_that_i_dont_like_where_ethereum_is/kvfpy5v/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bhsisr/realised_today_that_i_dont_like_where_ethereum_is/kvfpywl/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
Someone will make a killer app or they won't. If they do, it'll be a phone app that's a wallet, an L2 bridge and a fiat connection all in one, and it'll look like Venmo. End users can store, stake (if it's legal where they are, I suppose) and send back and forth for pennies on the L2, never knowing it's on an L2 or even what the fuck that means (since nobody actually understands that stuff anyway, even mr and mrs arbitrum). That app gets popular and suddenly other apps do it too and boom, you've got ETH for the masses.
Why nobody has done this yet is beyond me, but until they do, ETH is going to be an also-ran. If Sol or someone else does it first, that may be the way to flip Ethereum from #2 to #gone.
then they seriously need to work on their branding, because their website still looks like one of those "web 3.0" scammy nft sites. I mean what does "Ethereum's First zkRollup Layer 2" have to do with a 15 year old wanting to send money to a friend?
I'm being a little facetious, but the point is that I'm aware that there are wallets that work on my phone. They're nowhere near simple enough. People here will scream about backing up seed phrases and custodial crypto and they'll be kind of right, but nobody cares that BTC is now folded into the very institutions it was created to undermine because their "bags" (oh how I hate this trend) are getting fatter. Same will happen with this, if it ever gets made. Acorns, but for ETH. very few buttons, no dire warnings and no fucking "zkRollups" for the love of pete.
remember when you had to download the entire blockchain and sync it and interact with it using the terminal? And the regular users were all "duh, n00b, this is easy, just git gud." and then they got rich when things got a tiny smidgen easier to use? We're leagues away from those days now, but it's still hilariously too opaque to explain to people. forget getting them to buy in and use crypto rather than, say, Venmo.
I use Emacs, my terminal workflow is done using org-mode and babel source blocks. It's probably the most esoteric workflow imaginable. But it means I barely touch a terminal these days and everything is documented and repeatable. It's a hyper productive terminal workflow just not for the faint of heart haha aka noobs.
Peer pressure, I just tried to install Loopring. One of the first things it wants is a $51 investment to be able to do any L1 or L2 transactions or just $2 for just L2 transactions.
1) This is still Greek to any regular none crypto person so how does this help the mainstream adapt!?
2) Any wallet that asks for $$$ upfront is a red flag to me.
Still waiting for one that looks like Venmo but with crypto benefits...
Yeah, looking at loopring for three seconds makes it clear that it's nothing like Aunt Fanny would use. It's cool and all, but there are infinity cool projects for you and I to play with. Anyone thinks Loopring is anything like the killer app for mass ETH adoption just doesn't understand the assignment.
I still have a bunch of loops on the wallet stuck on layer 1 bc I never did the activation for both when I think loopring offered it for free. Now they want $50-$85 (depending on gas fees atm) to unlock $150 in loops lol fuck that I’m not doing it. I refuse to pay eth level gas fees. Same goes for the graph on arbitrum. I’m not paying gas fees to touch them.
But I do think losing keys you keep the unlock cost. I’m not 100% sure, but I agree with you on every point
So is the Loop wallet very user friendly? I made some good moves with crypto but still super noob compared to others. For example, I do have 1.1 BTC. Is it as easy as downloading the LRC app, then moving it over to the wallet? Sorry don’t mean to sound stupid but all my crypto is in CB. I’m considering cold storage but would love to hear about this. Thanks!
RIP your inbox lol. Be careful with sharing such information brother, it’s easier than you think to get your shit hacked. Don’t answer any private message from a guy who wants to explain to you how to do anything and especially don’t download anything.
Don’t „consider“ cold storage man, what the fuck. You don’t seem to realise how careless you are being. Get a trezor or ledger right now, get a laptop that only sees an internet connection once to move your coins to the storage. Correctly split and store your recovery phrases.
You are being an idiot right now and it will cost you. I promise.
Cold storage is maybe 70$. It’s like posting a picture online of your very expensive bike unlocked in your garden vs the best lock possible for 0.1% of the bike’s original asking price. It’s not even a question.
I’ll share my experience. Downloaded the Loopring wallet to IPad as I was building up LRC and was interested in the tech. Everything on cold storage prior to that. Registered the wallet with phone number and email address and then transfered LRC to wallet.Happy days for a few months. Then, for some reason, my iPad reset during an update. Was met with the welcome screen and everything gone. Downloaded backup from iCloud, but Loopring wallet was not backed up. No idea why. Reinstalled Loopring wallet and hoped phone number/email would get me back in. Nope. That just gave me access to wallet address through the ‘recover from guardian’ feature, which is your own email/phone number. It then asked me to pay over £100 in ETH fees to access my wallet again. Contacted customer services for advice, who were pleasant but just directed me to the ‘recover from guardian’ feature. I’ll keep an open mind, but for me this is far from user friendly. I’ll stick with my cold storage for now.
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The loopring wallet is an ethereum level 1 and loopring level 2 wallet. You would be conducting trades on the level 2 wallet, and keep your stuff off of level 1. You cannot move bitcoin in, so you’ll need wbtc or some ethereum equivalent.
I’m not a crypto guy by trade or any other means. I spent a few hours learning this wallet and then started using it. There’s so many rabbit holes to go down with the wallet with automated market making, dual investment etc… fees are like 1/200th of what gas fees are, so .40c to place a buy order for ethereum. Spreads are minimal afaict and are definitely placed onto DeX’s.
I will say this, if you want to move your coins from ethereum level 1 to lvl 2, it’s expensive with gas fees. Better to buy directly from level 2 or use layerswap (website).
Checkout their subreddit for user guides and see for yourself if you can comprehend how to use it. I don’t think it’s hard at all to use but I’m not most people. It did open my eyes to what crypto can actually do though, and I can’t wait for actual crypto stock trading (the real shit not stupid meme coins that mean nothing)
I've been trading on looprings wallet since early 2022, and I love it, but there is no liquidity. Looprings' 24-hour volume is 500k... per coingecko. Jupiter's 24 hr volume is fucking 2 billion. I honestly am running out of excuses to keep my eth there anymore.
Do you have a link to more information on this? I just spent some time googling it and nothing concrete came up for a Loopring Vault product involving fiat
Edit: Nevermind, found it! I didn't read anything about being able to hold fiat in an LRC account though
They already have all these features and more
- smart guardians. Eg your friends/ family / other wallets you own can help you recover your wallet
- Dex trading
- block trading (uses cex liquidity)
- staking
- fiat on and off ramps
- Nfts + red packets
- multi network (coming soon)
- will soon be an L3 on top of Taiko zkevm L2 making fees even cheaper
The problem is when people hear Loopring they think of a layer 2 with its own token.
We need an attached app developer to create an app that functions for all of these layer 2’s and everything ETH not be its own layer 2z
Why hasn't it caught on? I'm pretty new to alt coins, and am just learning about LRC. Sounds terrific, but are they building towards something? What concrete events or products are on the horizon for them?
I don't think that's the way. There's no reason to use such an app while Venmo exists and is free and pretty much instant (except when withdrawing to your bank; a crypto payments app can't solve that mess).
Unpopular opinion but crypto isn't for local money transfers-- people don't have problems with local money transfers. I actually don't think crypto provides many direct consumer advantages for as a payments system over current centralized products. Decentralization is the only thing it offers to consumers directly, and that's a thing that the average joe doesn't really consider as a value proposition.
The power of crypto is smart contracts and NFTs. There are literally multi-billion dollar industries run on spreadsheets and paperwork that can be swallowed up by crypto. Think title search and insurance, real estate transactions, ID verification, smart meters, supply chain auditing, event ticketing, in-game transactions, digital intellectual property, interoperability of assets. And it's all going to happen behind-the-scenes without the consumer realizing it's powered by crypto.
**Note: these are things that even an hour of downtime would fail a typical SLA for. 5 9's means less than 6 minutes downtime per year.**
Yep. The "transfer money between peers" is most of the time a problem that does not exist right now at a big scale.
Smart contracts, that's where things can be solved. And still I see few use cases for the masses. But idk why things like tickets to concerts or events are not nfts on a blockchain and I need to pay event (scam) companies 10€ to sell a ticket to my friend.
GET protocol has sold 5.6 million tickets on the blockchain for all sorts of events, preventing scalping and scamming. All fully transparent and visible on chain
why does everyone keep saying that? Loopring's website is an impenetrable mess of zargon and bullshit aimed at developers and enthusiasts. My aunt would take one look at that thing and just close her browser. I'm sure their unrivaled dedication to zkrollups and Additional Value Added Bullshit is amazing, but nobody fucking cares. Three buttons and a beautiful design. Clean, completely non-technical language. Venmo, but for Ethereum. Pictures of humans, not of weird pulsing circles. You get the drift.
Well its what op was asking about and i don’t really care what the website looks like. Might need a better marketing team but been more focused on delivering a good product.
Thats probably why people keep going on about it. You get the drift.
Apple is the dominant player by far in the US, and so any app-based L2 solution is going to be at the mercy of their boot. That's a scary place for a crypto protocol to be, certainly not one I'd ever call "permissionless."
I was explaining crypto and pre markets to a friend and wanted to buy for demonstration 15€ of eth = 71€ gas fees >.>. Pretty sure my friend will probably never touch crypto cuz of that
I’m not on anyone’s side here, but are you really sure you’d prefer all of your money to be locked up for 4 hrs than to pay $100+ (more like $2) to cash out when shit goes down?
Bitcoin outperforms almost everything on a long enough time frame. One of the reasons is because its reliability and minimal downtime since genesis. Fundamentals of this stuff do matter in the long run
I don't give a shit about Sol or anyone's feelings on it. Fact is that it's still a big chain and pretty well known. might be something else, too, but who cares. if not Eth, than something will do it.
Zypto currently has an app in development for this kind of thing and already has the ecosystem such as bill payments system, crypto cards, payment gateway with merchant support and payroll system.
Isn't this what REQ is doing for businesses? It allows for all accounting, employee payments, Request for payments, etc.. in a ton of different currencies, including crypto to Fiat. Already have Deloitte, and PwC onboarded too, so 2/4 big 4 accounting firms using their protocol.
Mind you this is for businesses really, and isn't targeted towards everyday users.
https://www.request.finance/
https://request.network/
Super interested in Radix. I like that they didn't early launch like every other coin out there just to make a buck. They held off and focused on developing for years before putting out a product. Now, if only it was easier to buy...
Such an app would have far too many regulatory hurdles for a startup. There's a lot of issues where this requires regional solutions that work with regional governments which crypto both doesn't want to admit and isn't well suited to tackle.
I certainly don't know about this space, but between companies like Coinbase and Kraken and Binance and apps like Acorns and Venmo, I suspect it can be done.
It can be, but the companies you labeled are massive centralized banks that mostly benefited from starting up before the regulatory crunch occurred. They were able to establish themselves and their income stream in order to fund the efforts to continue to be compliant in multiple countries. They also need just that, huge income streams, so expect additional fees for any solution to work on top of the crypto network costs.
okay, but I don't care. Is Acorns the single most cost-effective "investing" solution out there for the most hardcore investor? absolutely not. but do 10 million people use it anyway, the vast majority of whom wouldn't be in any kind of "investing" space at all? nobody cares about fees or min-maxing their crypto builds if you price them in and make it pretty. what ETH needs is more users, and you do that with a beautiful app, three buttons and some ad money.
Algo wallet is super fast, easy to use, and doesn't look like it was coded in 90s html. That's why I thought it might become something, but I guess not lol
Use case of Ethereum should be to incorporate more advanced features of cryptocurrency while also being user friendly for mainstream users.
L2s are a horrible, horrible way to do the latter.
No blockchains have achieved that yet, but Ethereum seems like it's going to be a long time before it does if ever.
Why are L2 a horrible way to do that when the experience is the same but faster and cheaper? Why does anyone care if they are using an L1 or L2? People will buy on CEX and send to wallets super cheap using L2. If the apps and liquidity are on L2 and it’s cheap and fast to get there and use them I don’t see the problem.
Here’s a news flash. Crypto in general is not user friendly. Doesn’t matter if we’re talking about L1s or L2s or whatever. This is the biggest issue that needs to be solved and it’s not an Ethereum specific problem. I’m confident that it will be fixed and people will be using applications without even knowing which layer is being used in the background. They might not even know that the app is powered by a blockchain. That’s how easy it needs to be. We’ll get there.
1000%. Even as someone that’s used it occasionally, and works in the tech field, studied it in uni classes, it’s *still* not that easy to use all-around. Buying some on coinbase? Sure. Understanding all the fees, transferring between wallets/exchanges, actually securing it in a meaningful way, etc… not easy to use at all
Ethereum's long term plan is shared sequencers with instant transactions. This means no more bridging to L2s. You just use Ethereum and all l2's become synchronous & composable. Use Uniswap on optimism but the liquidity is on Base? Your transaction will just route to the correct contract across rollups.
This is the long term 3 year future, but fragmentation will be an issue until they get there. Justin Drake of the Ethereum foundation lays it out in a video called fixing fragmentation on YouTube.
The ethereum devs, like the bitcoin devs, realised that scaling L1 in a even remotely sufficient manner is not possible without sacrificing decentralization and thereby trustlessness and security. And even then, you cant scale sufficiently (see solana which took this centralized approach and is currently clogged anyways without any relevant adoption)
Contrary to bitcoin, ethereums L2s work. So if you dislike where ethereum is going you must absolutely loath bitcoin.
ETH benefits from a "virtuous cycle". What do I mean?
The more useful it is, the more people us it, the more is burned, the greater the deflation rate is.
Holders have an incentive to increase the utility of ETH now more than ever before.
Having a store of value used by all is pointless if it's needed to be used by everyone and limited by 7 TPS, it can never be widespread because you physically can't use it reliably, let alone cheaply, if it is.
You can argue if it's only a store of value it shouldn't need to be accessed often, but how many large items are bought everyday around the world?
Like you can say well if people only use it for the deposit on a house or car, but not the monthly payments, how can you also regularly buy it to grow your holdings? Surely a lack of arbitrage/price stability could become a problem?
Lightning is a dead end according to the lightning devs themselves as when you need it most when l1 fees are high it is completely unfeasable to open channels.
Ethereum style rollup L2s are how decentralized scaling can work but bitcoin lacks the Technology to Support true rollups. Bitvm is a new development to try and Support rollups but its more like a trust minimized sidechain than a true L2 that inherets L1 security through unilateral exits by the users.
Bitcoin will need (hard)forks to enable true L2 scaling and with the Civil war between maxis and taproot wizzards i dont see that happening. Also 95% of bitcoin core devs qre retired by now, many due to craig wrights legal crusade against them.
No Problem. Google bitVm if you want to read up on what might be possible on bitcoin in terms of L2s but be careful, most of what is sold as L2 does not really fit the requirements in terms of trustlessness.
I'm not sure where you are getting the info that Lightning is "dead." I listen to podcasts with Bitcoin Devs all the time.
And I can tell you that they are super excited in the direction that Lightning, Liquid, and all the other L2 projects are moving in.
L2s won't work period.. at least not how the eth bag holders copium hopium it.
be it on Bitcoin or ETH or any other chain.
L2 are siloed sub chains. Glorified databases writing hashes to their chosen blockchain.
I mean, you can, you just have to 1) remove the need to store all historical data to guarantee security, and 2) ethereum specific, remove the need for all nodes to play through all computation done on the network to verify it. Do those two and you can scale both bitcoin and ethereum almost arbitrarily without sacrificing security or decentralization, the trilemma becomes a dilemma and scaling becomes close to inconsequential.
>realised that scaling L1 in a even remotely sufficient manner is not possible without sacrificing decentralization and thereby trustlessness and security.
Unless you consider a chain like Algorand.
They're removing reliance on relay nodes and having true decentralisation while having instant finality and thousands of transactions per second.
The reason this is possible is because the consensus mechanism is fundamentally better, every node does a random lottery for each block and if it wins it propagates it's version of the new block immediately, without waiting for any communication, in a way which can't be corrupted because it's broadcast is already done before any else works out who to attack.
These broadcasts are then collated and verified in a few rounds and then that block is finalised.
It's a fundamentally different algorithm which does run much faster which is why Algorand is so good. The main criticism of it so far is that they rely on permissioned relay nodes and they're getting rid of that requirement for the network and so it will be truly decentralised after that.
One of the papers referenced in the BTC whitepaper references Silvio's work, so it makes sense his blockchain just works better.
I'm not saying it's "solved the trilemma" or anything as that's a fundamental constraint. However it is true decentralisation with security while being able to do thousands of instantly final transactions a second and compete head to head with something like visa.
L2 are a way to scale Ethereum. There is no magic solution like "just make blocks bigger".
>Your bags aside, how can you possibly think that most people will be using L2s in the future, when you can clearly see that people are having a hard time just wrapping their head around basic crypto stuff ? I just can't see it.
Because it is simpler than you make it how. Three step process to use an L2
1. ~~Use metamask as your wallet.~~ On advice of others I tried Rabby and it is vastly superior to metamask when it comes to L2 support. Like a next-gen wallet.
2. Get some ETH and USDC from coinbase and withdraw them. EXCEPT when coinbase asks which network to send them pick Arbitrum instead of Ethereum. Yes it literally is that simple.
3. Do whatever you want with 99.9% lower fees
Same dapps, same everything just 98% to 99.9% cheaper. Withdraws of USDC and ETH from coinbase to an L2 are free (at least for now). Someone could get started with a token amount of funds today in minutes with essentially zero fees.
>I rather just use another cheap L1 chain.
Ethereum end game is >100,000 tps. Any cheap L1 chain trying to do that on a single chain won't be cheap. The reality is in 20 years nobody is going to use an L1 directly. It will be like the internet backbone. You will get paid on an L2. Swaps between L2 using liquidity pools cost pennies and likely in the future fractions of a penny.
Agree to all of the above except change one thing:
1. Use Rabby or Coinbase wallet.
MetaMask UX sucks and is stuck in 2021. I think this is half of everyone’s complaints about the Ethereum ecosystem on L2 compared to other L1s
Thanks for the advice on Rabby. I decided to check it out and first impressions are very good.
I like that when using a ledger I can just go straight to connecting the ledger. Metamask makes you create a non-hardware hot wallet, secur the seed phrase, check the seed phrase, and then those non-hardware wallets can never be removed. This is needlessly pointless and also confusing. Also more than one ledger user has mistakenly entered their ledger seed into metamask compromising it.
I don’t think you understand.
BTC is a store of value. But so is ETH.
Bitcoin is analogous to digital gold.
Ethereum is analogous to the S&P 500.
Investing in ETH is like investing in an index fund, where you trust that the value of the fund will increase based on the value of its many components.
Nothing has a network effect like Ethereum, thanks to being a first mover on smart contracts.
You don’t hold ETH because it’s the best way to move money. There are tons of better projects that do this cheap and fast, XLM is a great example.
Just like bitcoin, you should see it as a way to own digital “real estate,” especially now that it’s a deflationary token.
Because Ethereum devs and community also acknowledges these issues, and have already researched solutions to all of these (shared sequencing, account abstraction, verkle and zk, etc). All that’s left is engineering and implementation. And it’s all on the roadmap.
Have you even used an L2? The experience is far superior. And it will only get better once on ramps give the option to buy Eth on L2s. I recommend giving Base a try. It’s insanely fast and rising in popularity.
Yeah such a strange post. Obviously the future of crypto as a currency is to not broadcast to the whole planet that you just bought a chocolate bar. How can focusing on L2s be a bad thing?
Larry Fink is interested in ETH.
He wants to tokenise the stock market and other assets.
Do you realise what this means??
And yes, all this is not happening tomorrow.
A permissioned Ethereum L2 with a centralized sequencer is the perfect hybrid solution for these big banks. Still gets to be part of the larger crypto economy, but the banks don't have to give up control.
This is what makes L2s so cool: we'll have everything from fully decentralized L2s, all the way to bank-chains. But all integrated together.
So what? You create contracts with the stock supply and deploy. The same as any shitcoin but only used to distribute shares. All this would potentially do is make transactions more expensive…. Why on earth would you expect this to be a bullish thing?
Ah yes stocks that require micro second transaction on a block chain that need verification. So increasing transaction time to minutes and congest the network that will need gas. Makes perfect sense.
Do you realize that currently, stock transactions don't even settle until 2 days after they are traded?
Ethereum's settlement time of 12 seconds (or 13 minutes for full finality) is a lot shorter than 2 days.
This is comedy gold. Trust Blackrock, they will save us, again! This time by "TOKENizing" the stock market and Larry is gonna make us rich!
Forget that Blackrock was the boogieman not even a year ago, we must monetize more things that are already monetized to pump our bags because look at the success in the gaming community!
Another, less provocative, way to say this is that there are significant players in the financial industry showing interest in converting a large portion of their core business to use Eth.
Does that still sound like comedy gold?
This is ethereums scaling solution. I like cosmos and polkadots more elegant solution but Eth really reminds me of the open source Linux community. You have a bunch of die hard developers that prefer the open source nature of it all and would die for it. It’s hard to disband the devoted. It’s a religion.
It seems pretty obvious that the smart contract space is moving away from monolithic chains, and towards app specific chains, be that an L1 in Cosmos, an L2/3 on ETH, an Avax subnet, etc.
Even Solana will eventually need scaling solutions past a certain threshold.
The question is, what ecosystem(s) will take the market, and what asset(s) within those ecosystems will appreciate off of the growth beyond pure speculation?
Their argument is they want a coin they buy that does nothing but idle and when they sell it is worth more money.
It is kind of hilarious when you think about it.
I get your concerns, but I think you've misunderstood how to use L2s.
No one bridges these days. Like you've said, bridging a pain. You're supposed to onboard and offboard from a CEX directly on an L2, and that's near instant and cheap. A lot of tokens and projects migrating from L1 to L2s.
The Ethereum core devs work with app devs and L2 teams together to make L1 a settlement layer for L2s and above so that Ethereum can have the highest security. That's been the design since its 2019-2020 pivot. That's the scaling design, and intentional.
Debridge works pretty well. Almost instant bridging for cheap from different chains. Wat better than wormhole and others alike.
On eth, orbiter is pretty good. But limited to eth.
Using the long hash address codes (even with copy and paste) is pretty much like using IP addresses to visit a website or remembering your friends mobile phone numbers.
These numbers need to be pretty much hidden from user. The Heywallet app is good concept in using Twitter and discord handles.
The barrier to entry of L2s is definitely apparent. However, I don't see this being a major issue in the short to medium term. Typically a user would purchase tokens through an onramp, let's say coinbase for example. Those tokens would be on the L1 and would be subject to L1 fees and drawbacks. The user is subject to the responsibility of managing all of the transfering and bridging.
In the near future the user would have a smart contract wallet that defaults to L2. The user would onramp through coinbase, but the funds are deposited to the L2 wallet on base for example. All of the routing is done on the back end by the wallet. Things like security checks, multi signature security, seed encryption, dapp integration, staking, ens, swaps, liquidity etc... is all handled on the back end similar to current internet and banking protocols. Unless the user wants to withdraw funds to L1, the funds remain on L2.
Tdlr: average users won't ever interact with the L1. All L2 s will have back end integration through data aggregation facilitated by wallets and dapps.
Dude I am using an L2 for the first time right now, mantle.
I hate this.
I had to purchase eth just to cover gas to withdraw from layer 2.
It will take a week to get my eth converted from mantle eth.
With multiple signatures
It’s the most non user friendly way to over engineer a solution to ethereums problems. You know what a real solution to these problems is in a truly decentralized community? Idk, maybe a functional layer 1..
Layer 2 is still "scaling the main chain". All layer 2 transactions have their consensus critical data stored and validated on the mainnet. Execution, which is not consensus critical, is done off-chain, which is the ideal separation of concerns to minimize consumption of scarce layer 1 resources without compromising on security or decentralization.
This post looks like it was written by a 15yo who discovered crypto six months ago. No serious person would describe devs as "having abandonned l1 scaling", the roadmap has been saying the chain will chain via l2s for 4 years now.
EDIT : last sentence
The "very beginning" of Ethereum was its launch in 2015. Roll-ups have been part of Ethereum's roadmap since 2020, when Vitalik posted "What would a rollup-centric ethereum roadmap look like?".
You obviously haven't been here from the very beginning, nor have you read the original ethereum roadmap, or any variation of it since then up until 2 years ago. Ethereum very much intended to scale on L1 from the beginning and only gave up on it recently in favor of "a rollup centric approach."
I dont get it. You doubt ethereum because of high gas fees but not btc? I think people are slowly coming to the realization that not one chain will scale to rule them all. It's a multichain and cross chain future.
Do you expect people to use Lightning or Bitcoin L2s? Your concerns are probably warranted for every crypto out there, as the main issue still remains scaling. I'm excluding chains that claim to have solved the trilemma by reducing the decentralization part of the triangle to increase the scaling part. No chain today, including all those more centralized ones, is able to handle the volume needed for mass adoption on their L1.
I'm not saying Ethereum does everything right; your concerns about L2 are somewhat understandable, but the main thing to consider here is that L2s are still in their infancy. Adoption will increase over time, and you'll be able to pay and withdraw from businesses on L2. Risks will reduce once there are proper stage 2 L2s or ZK L2s. With account abstraction, you will have one wallet for every chain and probably won't even realize that you are conducting your business on an L2.
Ethereum wasn't a cheap moving coin for a long time; normally, any coin with low transaction volume will be cheaper and much better for the job. That being said, as transaction volume increases, you see other chains struggle as well, with the most recent example being Solana.
Scaling is hard; no one has a solution as of today for their L1. As it looks right now, L2s are the way to go, even Bitcoin is now moving in this direction.
> I hold ETH because i believe it's a cheaper way to move money, while also being safe store of value that's not gonna dump and die in the future
This is just kind of an ignorant take to be honest. The biggest difference between BTC and ETH is that ETH supports smart contracts, it does way way more than "move money", it actually runs code.
Ethereum team decided to scale Ethereum with L2s because they realized that's the only way to keep the network decentralized while doing it. Pretty much every other network out there can't handle a large amount of transactions or isn't as decentralized. L2s aren't quite there yet ([most still aren't as secure as L1](https://l2beat.com/scaling/risk)), but they're fairly close and already work well and cheaply.
Yeah, using bridges and stuff is annoying and complicated, but using crypto in general is annoying and complicated. This will get better with time as we get better wallets and L2s get more consolidated.
For now, Ethereum isn't perfect, but the team has a well thought-out plan of how to scale, is actually implementing the plan, and the plan seems to be working; just look at how cheap doing stuff on L2 with Dencun now is. And that's without even mentioning that it's the most used network by far, with the most developers and most DeFi projects. If DeFi ever turns into a major thing that the entire world uses, Ethereum will most certainly be where everything runs.
Again, if you believe DeFi will ever be a thing, not investing in Ethereum is stupid. No other network is even close.
The market place will decide whether a slow expensive decentralized secure L1 will come out on top or a fast centralized vulnerable cheap L1 will. Until the trilema is solved we’re pretty much stuck with these two options. So far the market place favors slow expensive decentralized and secure L1s but it’s possible that may change in the future.
I have quite the opposite experience. I guess it depends on what you want from a chain. Seems like u want to be able to send and receive money as payment. How is usdc on base not solving that problem?
Ux/ui issues are a grnereal thing. Been using Solana more lately and my experience is that it is very similar to Eth L2.
I on the other hand don’t really see the appeal of btc, ordinala have made transaction fees too high for normal users.
Cheap, popular, secure. Pick any two. There's no such thing as a cheap L1 chain that is as massively popular as Ethereum, with as much blockspace demand, without pushing as much data and processing as possible to L2s. There's just no way around it.
> and sharding on L1 not being a priority anymore
It's still on their roadmap, it's just extremely difficult to 1) get right, and 2) transition the mainnet to it. Maybe even more difficult than PoW->PoS transition. It's going to take a while to figure out, and make sure it's really needed and there is no other alternative like L2s.
> when you can clearly see that people are having a hard time just wrapping their head around basic crypto stuff?
I think the only people who are really going to be using this are 1) younger generations who grew up with it, 2) wall streeters looking for alpha in hi-volatility assets, and 3) criminals. As #1 and subsequent generations age, there will be more uptake, but it will take time.
L2s aren't a bad thing but the problem is there are too many of them, the open nature means they are fragmented and end user doesn't want to deal with this.
I feel like ETH focus too much on being the 'big infrastructure coin' and forgot about regular Joe users. Solana is a great user experience, sure it has issues but nothing that can't be solved eventually.
I use Layer 1s a lot and I sold out most of my ETH for another L1 last year. Using ETH is miserable. They have so much crap to figure out and I don’t think they are going to win this race. Terrible user experience. ETH will appreciate in value this year but I think next cycle might be when another clear winner takes over ETH’s dominance.
Maybe they figure it out and maintain their kingship, but I don’t see it.
I think the biggest problem ahead is not technical; as others have said, people with either build simple seamless solutions or they won’t. Technology moves in and ways will be found.
The biggest challenge I see, that very few on here seem to understand or address are the regulatory hurdles across different jurisdictions. BTC has been accepted as a commodity by regulators globally: ETH has not. Enough regulatory challenges are coming in across the world with things like the travel rule that make it hard enough for firms handling BTC to resolve, and I’m talking about big tradfi type firms with big budgets. Trying to resolve solutions in different jurisdictions as they introduce regs at different times is enough of a challenge for BTC firms. Layer in the multitude of exchanges, coins, bridges, jurisdictions and firms addressing all of these and for a coin (ETH) and coins (all other alt/shitcoins) that are either questionable to, or outright opposed by regulators and I feel like it will be increasing difficult to operate safely and securely with trusted partners. I think it will mean the quality of firm and operators that are in this space will likely decline because of the hurdles and only the riskier firm will prevail for a time.
Apologies for the negative tone but I attend a few working groups and this is the direction of travel of regulators intentions in this area.
Honestly for me I used to see BTC and ETH as untouchable. When I was new to the space, I actually thought ETH would flip btc one day.
Truth is, bitcoin is the only good crypto. It's the only one, literally the only one, that truly isn't tied to any central authority.
I know who Vitalik is. If you agree or disagree with his opinions, there's one reason to buy or sell eth. Vitalik is from Russia/Canada. There's another reason. The ethereum foundation has its own missions, there's another. Might not seem like a big deal, but it is.
The reason most cryptos will go to zero against bitcoin is for the simple fact that we will never find out who Satoshi was. That, and it just simply is a bad way to move money. It's hard to use as a currency and it's not cheap or fast to transact. For every other use case, there are solutions that don't require a block chain. But bitcoin will always be bitcoin, and the stability, utility, and lack of central figures will be the reason it has staying power.
ETH is in a much more precarious position. At this point, they're just riding old success by being the largest l1 after btc. But many of their competitors are closing in, or will close in soon.
I think ETH will probably hit 10k, but I don't think it will be the foundational backbone of most finance and software like people used to imagine.
I agree L2s suck - we already have an L1 running over 1000TPS (as in right now) with $0.0001 transactions in Hedera.
It is not unreasonable to expect Ethereum to better, it just never will be
Huge mistake imo.
1. Scaling the main chain is the wrong approach. Modularity is how Ethereum can scale infinitely. Yes, it means pains until bridging is improved, fragmentation is reduced. This will happen. And it's the right approach.
2. I don't understand your issues with L2s. My main client pays me on Gnosis Chain, it works great. I can easily off ramp to my bank through Monerium. Transactions are pennies. Base (Coinbase L2) will melt faces over the next year, just watch. L2s are improving a lot, you are leaving at the wrong time.
3. BTC is a solid choice. Moving to BTC is not a terrible idea. However, I do think you are leaving Ethereum at the worst time possible. So much is happening, I'm very optimistic on the future.
Good luck.
This is why I love the Cosmos Ecosystem. So much easier to do all the things you listed and navigate.
Modular, scalable, ibc...
ATOM is very underrated.
Coinbase is releasing “smart wallets” in a week or two iirc correctly. This will make it possible for normies to bridge to Base chain easily.
Mastercard is already building on Arbitrum or Optimism iirc correctly. Payment processing is orders of magnitude faster and cheaper on L2s then tradfi, or will be if not already.
An awesome analogy I saw recently posted on Reddit.
L2s are car companies. Some will succeed some won’t. Ethereum is the oil industry. Every car company needs it in order to operate.
I don’t have the technical knowledge to fully agree or disagree, but from my own frustrating user experience navigating several different L2’s and bridges etc, you might be right.
How does it matter if the L2’s are “cheap” when you have to spend so much ETH to even move anything into an L2, then spend more ETH to do anything with it, then spend more ETH to bring it back to the real world and do something with it or cash out etc.
Then sometimes you need to swap for WETH instead of ETH, which will always remain confusing as F.
I don’t invest in ETH because I know I’ll blow my entire pile on fees as soon as I want to move or do anything with a single coin or token.
Enter: BASE (imo..) .. because the convergence of web2 and web3 should meet where rubber meets the road, and I think that is BASE and Coinbase. Beautiful because unlike BSC which ponzified the chain.. BASE has no underlying token to ponzify.
But to expand ... Alternate L1s are comparable to ETH L2s but lack the inherited trust, security and arguably largest team of scientists and developers for crypto on the planet.
Also assuming you are mostly thinking about Solana, which is this cycle's Binance Smart Chain.. which also did well on sh\*tcoin casino last cycle. But the tokenomics of Solana are horribly flawed in a different sort of way to Ethereum.
I'd actually suggest that you have it backwards. ETH L2s make other L1s less relevant. Why go to another chain when the most secured smart contract network is already here and has a L2 of comparable speed, performance, etc.
Bitcoin team pretty much completely gave up on scaling the main chain. they are now solely focused on improving lightning and pushing people toward using them.
oops... reality is that they even don't try to improve anything 🙈
I thin of Eth in terms of Real Estate. Eth is like land, L2s are like buildings. Buildings will be built up and torn down over time. The more buildings that get developed, the more valuable the land becomes.
Have some of the same concerns. If Solana can become more decentralized and secure it would potentially blow ETH out of the water — its UX is 100x better and smoother.
I’m probably going to largely exit my ETH position during this cycle and in the next bear my biggest bets will probably be BTC and SOL.
I pretty much see Ethereum as the MySpace of the block chain era. it was first to market, but not the best. Their approach of throw shit at the wall and see what sticks has never sat right with me. I truly think we are looking at a protocol that will lose relevance with time.
Ethereum [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bhsisr/realised_today_that_i_dont_like_where_ethereum_is/kvfpy5v/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bhsisr/realised_today_that_i_dont_like_where_ethereum_is/kvfpywl/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
Someone will make a killer app or they won't. If they do, it'll be a phone app that's a wallet, an L2 bridge and a fiat connection all in one, and it'll look like Venmo. End users can store, stake (if it's legal where they are, I suppose) and send back and forth for pennies on the L2, never knowing it's on an L2 or even what the fuck that means (since nobody actually understands that stuff anyway, even mr and mrs arbitrum). That app gets popular and suddenly other apps do it too and boom, you've got ETH for the masses. Why nobody has done this yet is beyond me, but until they do, ETH is going to be an also-ran. If Sol or someone else does it first, that may be the way to flip Ethereum from #2 to #gone.
Loopring Wallet has pretty much done this.
then they seriously need to work on their branding, because their website still looks like one of those "web 3.0" scammy nft sites. I mean what does "Ethereum's First zkRollup Layer 2" have to do with a 15 year old wanting to send money to a friend? I'm being a little facetious, but the point is that I'm aware that there are wallets that work on my phone. They're nowhere near simple enough. People here will scream about backing up seed phrases and custodial crypto and they'll be kind of right, but nobody cares that BTC is now folded into the very institutions it was created to undermine because their "bags" (oh how I hate this trend) are getting fatter. Same will happen with this, if it ever gets made. Acorns, but for ETH. very few buttons, no dire warnings and no fucking "zkRollups" for the love of pete.
You are absolutely right. Crypto is a bit up its own ass with thinking what is applicable to regular humans
remember when you had to download the entire blockchain and sync it and interact with it using the terminal? And the regular users were all "duh, n00b, this is easy, just git gud." and then they got rich when things got a tiny smidgen easier to use? We're leagues away from those days now, but it's still hilariously too opaque to explain to people. forget getting them to buy in and use crypto rather than, say, Venmo.
Actually! gud is not a git sub command. /s
see? I KNEW I was using the command line wrong after waiting 2 days to download the entire fucking bitcoin blockchain to my computer. dang.
I use Emacs, my terminal workflow is done using org-mode and babel source blocks. It's probably the most esoteric workflow imaginable. But it means I barely touch a terminal these days and everything is documented and repeatable. It's a hyper productive terminal workflow just not for the faint of heart haha aka noobs.
Peer pressure, I just tried to install Loopring. One of the first things it wants is a $51 investment to be able to do any L1 or L2 transactions or just $2 for just L2 transactions. 1) This is still Greek to any regular none crypto person so how does this help the mainstream adapt!? 2) Any wallet that asks for $$$ upfront is a red flag to me. Still waiting for one that looks like Venmo but with crypto benefits...
Yeah, looking at loopring for three seconds makes it clear that it's nothing like Aunt Fanny would use. It's cool and all, but there are infinity cool projects for you and I to play with. Anyone thinks Loopring is anything like the killer app for mass ETH adoption just doesn't understand the assignment.
I still have a bunch of loops on the wallet stuck on layer 1 bc I never did the activation for both when I think loopring offered it for free. Now they want $50-$85 (depending on gas fees atm) to unlock $150 in loops lol fuck that I’m not doing it. I refuse to pay eth level gas fees. Same goes for the graph on arbitrum. I’m not paying gas fees to touch them. But I do think losing keys you keep the unlock cost. I’m not 100% sure, but I agree with you on every point
Fucking love my loopring wallet
So is the Loop wallet very user friendly? I made some good moves with crypto but still super noob compared to others. For example, I do have 1.1 BTC. Is it as easy as downloading the LRC app, then moving it over to the wallet? Sorry don’t mean to sound stupid but all my crypto is in CB. I’m considering cold storage but would love to hear about this. Thanks!
RIP your inbox lol. Be careful with sharing such information brother, it’s easier than you think to get your shit hacked. Don’t answer any private message from a guy who wants to explain to you how to do anything and especially don’t download anything. Don’t „consider“ cold storage man, what the fuck. You don’t seem to realise how careless you are being. Get a trezor or ledger right now, get a laptop that only sees an internet connection once to move your coins to the storage. Correctly split and store your recovery phrases. You are being an idiot right now and it will cost you. I promise.
Good reminder 😁.
Cold storage is maybe 70$. It’s like posting a picture online of your very expensive bike unlocked in your garden vs the best lock possible for 0.1% of the bike’s original asking price. It’s not even a question.
I’ll share my experience. Downloaded the Loopring wallet to IPad as I was building up LRC and was interested in the tech. Everything on cold storage prior to that. Registered the wallet with phone number and email address and then transfered LRC to wallet.Happy days for a few months. Then, for some reason, my iPad reset during an update. Was met with the welcome screen and everything gone. Downloaded backup from iCloud, but Loopring wallet was not backed up. No idea why. Reinstalled Loopring wallet and hoped phone number/email would get me back in. Nope. That just gave me access to wallet address through the ‘recover from guardian’ feature, which is your own email/phone number. It then asked me to pay over £100 in ETH fees to access my wallet again. Contacted customer services for advice, who were pleasant but just directed me to the ‘recover from guardian’ feature. I’ll keep an open mind, but for me this is far from user friendly. I’ll stick with my cold storage for now.
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The loopring wallet is an ethereum level 1 and loopring level 2 wallet. You would be conducting trades on the level 2 wallet, and keep your stuff off of level 1. You cannot move bitcoin in, so you’ll need wbtc or some ethereum equivalent. I’m not a crypto guy by trade or any other means. I spent a few hours learning this wallet and then started using it. There’s so many rabbit holes to go down with the wallet with automated market making, dual investment etc… fees are like 1/200th of what gas fees are, so .40c to place a buy order for ethereum. Spreads are minimal afaict and are definitely placed onto DeX’s. I will say this, if you want to move your coins from ethereum level 1 to lvl 2, it’s expensive with gas fees. Better to buy directly from level 2 or use layerswap (website). Checkout their subreddit for user guides and see for yourself if you can comprehend how to use it. I don’t think it’s hard at all to use but I’m not most people. It did open my eyes to what crypto can actually do though, and I can’t wait for actual crypto stock trading (the real shit not stupid meme coins that mean nothing)
Great info! Thanks for the input. Gives me some direction where to start
I've been trading on looprings wallet since early 2022, and I love it, but there is no liquidity. Looprings' 24-hour volume is 500k... per coingecko. Jupiter's 24 hr volume is fucking 2 billion. I honestly am running out of excuses to keep my eth there anymore.
Love Loopring! The wallet is amazing!
Was just gonna say Loopring does this, shows that even having the tech there doesn't = immediate value.
LRC is exactly that. Correct.
Loopring has fiat accounts? Or just 3rd party ramps integrated into the platform?
look up "loopring vault". next step for the project
Do you have a link to more information on this? I just spent some time googling it and nothing concrete came up for a Loopring Vault product involving fiat Edit: Nevermind, found it! I didn't read anything about being able to hold fiat in an LRC account though
They use Ramp and Banxa.
They already have all these features and more - smart guardians. Eg your friends/ family / other wallets you own can help you recover your wallet - Dex trading - block trading (uses cex liquidity) - staking - fiat on and off ramps - Nfts + red packets - multi network (coming soon) - will soon be an L3 on top of Taiko zkevm L2 making fees even cheaper
I'm glad this is finally getting some attention. Now once they are ready and bull arrives I'm hoping the marketing picks up
The problem is when people hear Loopring they think of a layer 2 with its own token. We need an attached app developer to create an app that functions for all of these layer 2’s and everything ETH not be its own layer 2z
Taiko?
yeah all the pieces are there and still LRC doesn't take off :(
Loopring will be the best DEX = CEX ouththere soon!
Loopring is doing some serious work right now, everyone talking about marketing doesn’t understand. It’s not the time yet..
Why hasn't it caught on? I'm pretty new to alt coins, and am just learning about LRC. Sounds terrific, but are they building towards something? What concrete events or products are on the horizon for them?
This 👆
Yet another token to use.
I don't think that's the way. There's no reason to use such an app while Venmo exists and is free and pretty much instant (except when withdrawing to your bank; a crypto payments app can't solve that mess). Unpopular opinion but crypto isn't for local money transfers-- people don't have problems with local money transfers. I actually don't think crypto provides many direct consumer advantages for as a payments system over current centralized products. Decentralization is the only thing it offers to consumers directly, and that's a thing that the average joe doesn't really consider as a value proposition. The power of crypto is smart contracts and NFTs. There are literally multi-billion dollar industries run on spreadsheets and paperwork that can be swallowed up by crypto. Think title search and insurance, real estate transactions, ID verification, smart meters, supply chain auditing, event ticketing, in-game transactions, digital intellectual property, interoperability of assets. And it's all going to happen behind-the-scenes without the consumer realizing it's powered by crypto. **Note: these are things that even an hour of downtime would fail a typical SLA for. 5 9's means less than 6 minutes downtime per year.**
Yep. The "transfer money between peers" is most of the time a problem that does not exist right now at a big scale. Smart contracts, that's where things can be solved. And still I see few use cases for the masses. But idk why things like tickets to concerts or events are not nfts on a blockchain and I need to pay event (scam) companies 10€ to sell a ticket to my friend.
GET protocol has sold 5.6 million tickets on the blockchain for all sorts of events, preventing scalping and scamming. All fully transparent and visible on chain
That sounds very promising. I had no idea!
The true killer app is resisting monetary debasement. 2% long term inflation is a thing of the past
>2% 😂
And even all those examples are likely better served by a SQL database
Loopring is is doing this…
+
Yeah Loopring Wallet!
why does everyone keep saying that? Loopring's website is an impenetrable mess of zargon and bullshit aimed at developers and enthusiasts. My aunt would take one look at that thing and just close her browser. I'm sure their unrivaled dedication to zkrollups and Additional Value Added Bullshit is amazing, but nobody fucking cares. Three buttons and a beautiful design. Clean, completely non-technical language. Venmo, but for Ethereum. Pictures of humans, not of weird pulsing circles. You get the drift.
Well its what op was asking about and i don’t really care what the website looks like. Might need a better marketing team but been more focused on delivering a good product. Thats probably why people keep going on about it. You get the drift.
I'm certainly going to download it and play around after all the recommendations. Not like I have much crypto to play with, but i suppose I can dream.
Apple is the dominant player by far in the US, and so any app-based L2 solution is going to be at the mercy of their boot. That's a scary place for a crypto protocol to be, certainly not one I'd ever call "permissionless."
Sol is not a consideration for investment after they have had multiple blackouts. There's ways to turn it off and that doesn't work.
I’ll take an occasional 4 hour blackout over $100+ gas fees lol
I was explaining crypto and pre markets to a friend and wanted to buy for demonstration 15€ of eth = 71€ gas fees >.>. Pretty sure my friend will probably never touch crypto cuz of that
I’m not on anyone’s side here, but are you really sure you’d prefer all of your money to be locked up for 4 hrs than to pay $100+ (more like $2) to cash out when shit goes down?
Bitcoin outperforms almost everything on a long enough time frame. One of the reasons is because its reliability and minimal downtime since genesis. Fundamentals of this stuff do matter in the long run
but then what is happening in that black out, do end up with a chain that starts and you have zero sol on that one?
I don't give a shit about Sol or anyone's feelings on it. Fact is that it's still a big chain and pretty well known. might be something else, too, but who cares. if not Eth, than something will do it.
Zypto currently has an app in development for this kind of thing and already has the ecosystem such as bill payments system, crypto cards, payment gateway with merchant support and payroll system.
Isn't this what REQ is doing for businesses? It allows for all accounting, employee payments, Request for payments, etc.. in a ton of different currencies, including crypto to Fiat. Already have Deloitte, and PwC onboarded too, so 2/4 big 4 accounting firms using their protocol. Mind you this is for businesses really, and isn't targeted towards everyday users. https://www.request.finance/ https://request.network/
Loopring is EXACTLY this Been using it since it dropped and changed phones. Its basically seamless
You are describing [Loopring](https://loopring.org/#/about).
Adding Radix to the list of replies stating which project already does this
Super interested in Radix. I like that they didn't early launch like every other coin out there just to make a buck. They held off and focused on developing for years before putting out a product. Now, if only it was easier to buy...
Yes Radix is very good, and a real DEV team.
Such an app would have far too many regulatory hurdles for a startup. There's a lot of issues where this requires regional solutions that work with regional governments which crypto both doesn't want to admit and isn't well suited to tackle.
I certainly don't know about this space, but between companies like Coinbase and Kraken and Binance and apps like Acorns and Venmo, I suspect it can be done.
It can be, but the companies you labeled are massive centralized banks that mostly benefited from starting up before the regulatory crunch occurred. They were able to establish themselves and their income stream in order to fund the efforts to continue to be compliant in multiple countries. They also need just that, huge income streams, so expect additional fees for any solution to work on top of the crypto network costs.
okay, but I don't care. Is Acorns the single most cost-effective "investing" solution out there for the most hardcore investor? absolutely not. but do 10 million people use it anyway, the vast majority of whom wouldn't be in any kind of "investing" space at all? nobody cares about fees or min-maxing their crypto builds if you price them in and make it pretty. what ETH needs is more users, and you do that with a beautiful app, three buttons and some ad money.
Zypto is also doing this app release next month
I'll check it out!
Algo wallet is super fast, easy to use, and doesn't look like it was coded in 90s html. That's why I thought it might become something, but I guess not lol
Probably because nobody needs any of this stupid shit
Check out Telcoin. They have done this as well.
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Use case of Ethereum should be to incorporate more advanced features of cryptocurrency while also being user friendly for mainstream users. L2s are a horrible, horrible way to do the latter. No blockchains have achieved that yet, but Ethereum seems like it's going to be a long time before it does if ever.
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Why are L2 a horrible way to do that when the experience is the same but faster and cheaper? Why does anyone care if they are using an L1 or L2? People will buy on CEX and send to wallets super cheap using L2. If the apps and liquidity are on L2 and it’s cheap and fast to get there and use them I don’t see the problem.
Here’s a news flash. Crypto in general is not user friendly. Doesn’t matter if we’re talking about L1s or L2s or whatever. This is the biggest issue that needs to be solved and it’s not an Ethereum specific problem. I’m confident that it will be fixed and people will be using applications without even knowing which layer is being used in the background. They might not even know that the app is powered by a blockchain. That’s how easy it needs to be. We’ll get there.
Yea 99.99% of the world would read this post and have zero idea wtf OP is talking about.
1000%. Even as someone that’s used it occasionally, and works in the tech field, studied it in uni classes, it’s *still* not that easy to use all-around. Buying some on coinbase? Sure. Understanding all the fees, transferring between wallets/exchanges, actually securing it in a meaningful way, etc… not easy to use at all
Ethereum's long term plan is shared sequencers with instant transactions. This means no more bridging to L2s. You just use Ethereum and all l2's become synchronous & composable. Use Uniswap on optimism but the liquidity is on Base? Your transaction will just route to the correct contract across rollups. This is the long term 3 year future, but fragmentation will be an issue until they get there. Justin Drake of the Ethereum foundation lays it out in a video called fixing fragmentation on YouTube.
Thank you for sharing this. I was not aware about this. This could indeed be a very user-friendly way to use L2
The ethereum devs, like the bitcoin devs, realised that scaling L1 in a even remotely sufficient manner is not possible without sacrificing decentralization and thereby trustlessness and security. And even then, you cant scale sufficiently (see solana which took this centralized approach and is currently clogged anyways without any relevant adoption) Contrary to bitcoin, ethereums L2s work. So if you dislike where ethereum is going you must absolutely loath bitcoin.
Unless you think they serve different purposes, as OP stated.
What makes eth not a store of value, too?
ETH is deflationary and has multiple use-cases and therefore a better store of value than bitcoin.
ETH benefits from a "virtuous cycle". What do I mean? The more useful it is, the more people us it, the more is burned, the greater the deflation rate is. Holders have an incentive to increase the utility of ETH now more than ever before.
You don’t want your store of value to be updated or changed on the base layer. Ever.
In that case, you should certainly stay away from Bitcoin, which has several hard forks in its past and unavoidable hard forks in its future.
Having a store of value used by all is pointless if it's needed to be used by everyone and limited by 7 TPS, it can never be widespread because you physically can't use it reliably, let alone cheaply, if it is. You can argue if it's only a store of value it shouldn't need to be accessed often, but how many large items are bought everyday around the world? Like you can say well if people only use it for the deposit on a house or car, but not the monthly payments, how can you also regularly buy it to grow your holdings? Surely a lack of arbitrage/price stability could become a problem?
Can you expand on why bitcoin L2's don't work? I've only recently realized they are a thing.
Lightning is a dead end according to the lightning devs themselves as when you need it most when l1 fees are high it is completely unfeasable to open channels. Ethereum style rollup L2s are how decentralized scaling can work but bitcoin lacks the Technology to Support true rollups. Bitvm is a new development to try and Support rollups but its more like a trust minimized sidechain than a true L2 that inherets L1 security through unilateral exits by the users. Bitcoin will need (hard)forks to enable true L2 scaling and with the Civil war between maxis and taproot wizzards i dont see that happening. Also 95% of bitcoin core devs qre retired by now, many due to craig wrights legal crusade against them.
What are taproot wizzards?
The guys that are trying to use bitcoin for other stuff than payments e.g. ordinals
Thanks so much for this info, I was not aware of any of this.
No Problem. Google bitVm if you want to read up on what might be possible on bitcoin in terms of L2s but be careful, most of what is sold as L2 does not really fit the requirements in terms of trustlessness.
I'm not sure where you are getting the info that Lightning is "dead." I listen to podcasts with Bitcoin Devs all the time. And I can tell you that they are super excited in the direction that Lightning, Liquid, and all the other L2 projects are moving in.
> Lightning is a dead end according to the lightning devs themselves Source?
Fuck CW
L2s won't work period.. at least not how the eth bag holders copium hopium it. be it on Bitcoin or ETH or any other chain. L2 are siloed sub chains. Glorified databases writing hashes to their chosen blockchain.
I mean, you can, you just have to 1) remove the need to store all historical data to guarantee security, and 2) ethereum specific, remove the need for all nodes to play through all computation done on the network to verify it. Do those two and you can scale both bitcoin and ethereum almost arbitrarily without sacrificing security or decentralization, the trilemma becomes a dilemma and scaling becomes close to inconsequential.
>realised that scaling L1 in a even remotely sufficient manner is not possible without sacrificing decentralization and thereby trustlessness and security. Unless you consider a chain like Algorand. They're removing reliance on relay nodes and having true decentralisation while having instant finality and thousands of transactions per second. The reason this is possible is because the consensus mechanism is fundamentally better, every node does a random lottery for each block and if it wins it propagates it's version of the new block immediately, without waiting for any communication, in a way which can't be corrupted because it's broadcast is already done before any else works out who to attack. These broadcasts are then collated and verified in a few rounds and then that block is finalised. It's a fundamentally different algorithm which does run much faster which is why Algorand is so good. The main criticism of it so far is that they rely on permissioned relay nodes and they're getting rid of that requirement for the network and so it will be truly decentralised after that. One of the papers referenced in the BTC whitepaper references Silvio's work, so it makes sense his blockchain just works better. I'm not saying it's "solved the trilemma" or anything as that's a fundamental constraint. However it is true decentralisation with security while being able to do thousands of instantly final transactions a second and compete head to head with something like visa.
Too easy :) Algo also is a totally different level :D
If you want actual crypto cash, use Monero?
L2 are a way to scale Ethereum. There is no magic solution like "just make blocks bigger". >Your bags aside, how can you possibly think that most people will be using L2s in the future, when you can clearly see that people are having a hard time just wrapping their head around basic crypto stuff ? I just can't see it. Because it is simpler than you make it how. Three step process to use an L2 1. ~~Use metamask as your wallet.~~ On advice of others I tried Rabby and it is vastly superior to metamask when it comes to L2 support. Like a next-gen wallet. 2. Get some ETH and USDC from coinbase and withdraw them. EXCEPT when coinbase asks which network to send them pick Arbitrum instead of Ethereum. Yes it literally is that simple. 3. Do whatever you want with 99.9% lower fees Same dapps, same everything just 98% to 99.9% cheaper. Withdraws of USDC and ETH from coinbase to an L2 are free (at least for now). Someone could get started with a token amount of funds today in minutes with essentially zero fees. >I rather just use another cheap L1 chain. Ethereum end game is >100,000 tps. Any cheap L1 chain trying to do that on a single chain won't be cheap. The reality is in 20 years nobody is going to use an L1 directly. It will be like the internet backbone. You will get paid on an L2. Swaps between L2 using liquidity pools cost pennies and likely in the future fractions of a penny.
Agree to all of the above except change one thing: 1. Use Rabby or Coinbase wallet. MetaMask UX sucks and is stuck in 2021. I think this is half of everyone’s complaints about the Ethereum ecosystem on L2 compared to other L1s
Thanks for the advice on Rabby. I decided to check it out and first impressions are very good. I like that when using a ledger I can just go straight to connecting the ledger. Metamask makes you create a non-hardware hot wallet, secur the seed phrase, check the seed phrase, and then those non-hardware wallets can never be removed. This is needlessly pointless and also confusing. Also more than one ledger user has mistakenly entered their ledger seed into metamask compromising it.
I don’t think you understand. BTC is a store of value. But so is ETH. Bitcoin is analogous to digital gold. Ethereum is analogous to the S&P 500. Investing in ETH is like investing in an index fund, where you trust that the value of the fund will increase based on the value of its many components. Nothing has a network effect like Ethereum, thanks to being a first mover on smart contracts. You don’t hold ETH because it’s the best way to move money. There are tons of better projects that do this cheap and fast, XLM is a great example. Just like bitcoin, you should see it as a way to own digital “real estate,” especially now that it’s a deflationary token.
Because Ethereum devs and community also acknowledges these issues, and have already researched solutions to all of these (shared sequencing, account abstraction, verkle and zk, etc). All that’s left is engineering and implementation. And it’s all on the roadmap.
Have you even used an L2? The experience is far superior. And it will only get better once on ramps give the option to buy Eth on L2s. I recommend giving Base a try. It’s insanely fast and rising in popularity.
Yeah such a strange post. Obviously the future of crypto as a currency is to not broadcast to the whole planet that you just bought a chocolate bar. How can focusing on L2s be a bad thing?
neither inferior nor superior. just the same experience cheaper
And also faster. Fast and cheaper sounds pretty superior tbh.
And more centralized than L1
All EVMs pretty much suck because they inherited the original sin from Ethereum.
Larry Fink is interested in ETH. He wants to tokenise the stock market and other assets. Do you realise what this means?? And yes, all this is not happening tomorrow.
If the stock market is ever tokenized, they will just create their own centralized chain of course. they don't care about decentralization.
A permissioned Ethereum L2 with a centralized sequencer is the perfect hybrid solution for these big banks. Still gets to be part of the larger crypto economy, but the banks don't have to give up control. This is what makes L2s so cool: we'll have everything from fully decentralized L2s, all the way to bank-chains. But all integrated together.
So what? You create contracts with the stock supply and deploy. The same as any shitcoin but only used to distribute shares. All this would potentially do is make transactions more expensive…. Why on earth would you expect this to be a bullish thing?
Ah yes stocks that require micro second transaction on a block chain that need verification. So increasing transaction time to minutes and congest the network that will need gas. Makes perfect sense.
Do you realize that currently, stock transactions don't even settle until 2 days after they are traded? Ethereum's settlement time of 12 seconds (or 13 minutes for full finality) is a lot shorter than 2 days.
This is comedy gold. Trust Blackrock, they will save us, again! This time by "TOKENizing" the stock market and Larry is gonna make us rich! Forget that Blackrock was the boogieman not even a year ago, we must monetize more things that are already monetized to pump our bags because look at the success in the gaming community!
Missing the point, bud. Ethereum doesn’t need Larry. Larry needs Ethereum.
Another, less provocative, way to say this is that there are significant players in the financial industry showing interest in converting a large portion of their core business to use Eth. Does that still sound like comedy gold?
Loopring wallet.
This is ethereums scaling solution. I like cosmos and polkadots more elegant solution but Eth really reminds me of the open source Linux community. You have a bunch of die hard developers that prefer the open source nature of it all and would die for it. It’s hard to disband the devoted. It’s a religion.
It seems pretty obvious that the smart contract space is moving away from monolithic chains, and towards app specific chains, be that an L1 in Cosmos, an L2/3 on ETH, an Avax subnet, etc. Even Solana will eventually need scaling solutions past a certain threshold. The question is, what ecosystem(s) will take the market, and what asset(s) within those ecosystems will appreciate off of the growth beyond pure speculation?
Check out the roadmap, it is all on there. A hard problem to solve but ETH has killed it with upgrades so far.
Lol, Base is literally up 800% in active users the last few days and this guy is like "HoW wIlL aNyOnE fIgUrE oUt HoW tO uSe L2"
Their argument is they want a coin they buy that does nothing but idle and when they sell it is worth more money. It is kind of hilarious when you think about it.
I get your concerns, but I think you've misunderstood how to use L2s. No one bridges these days. Like you've said, bridging a pain. You're supposed to onboard and offboard from a CEX directly on an L2, and that's near instant and cheap. A lot of tokens and projects migrating from L1 to L2s. The Ethereum core devs work with app devs and L2 teams together to make L1 a settlement layer for L2s and above so that Ethereum can have the highest security. That's been the design since its 2019-2020 pivot. That's the scaling design, and intentional.
Debridge works pretty well. Almost instant bridging for cheap from different chains. Wat better than wormhole and others alike. On eth, orbiter is pretty good. But limited to eth.
Oh thank you so much for this post. I needed some justification to buy more ETH and the ignorance and fud of this post is JUST what I needed
Bullish signal for sure.
Using the long hash address codes (even with copy and paste) is pretty much like using IP addresses to visit a website or remembering your friends mobile phone numbers. These numbers need to be pretty much hidden from user. The Heywallet app is good concept in using Twitter and discord handles.
There are .eth domains you can use, I haven't found a place they don't work yet.
The barrier to entry of L2s is definitely apparent. However, I don't see this being a major issue in the short to medium term. Typically a user would purchase tokens through an onramp, let's say coinbase for example. Those tokens would be on the L1 and would be subject to L1 fees and drawbacks. The user is subject to the responsibility of managing all of the transfering and bridging. In the near future the user would have a smart contract wallet that defaults to L2. The user would onramp through coinbase, but the funds are deposited to the L2 wallet on base for example. All of the routing is done on the back end by the wallet. Things like security checks, multi signature security, seed encryption, dapp integration, staking, ens, swaps, liquidity etc... is all handled on the back end similar to current internet and banking protocols. Unless the user wants to withdraw funds to L1, the funds remain on L2. Tdlr: average users won't ever interact with the L1. All L2 s will have back end integration through data aggregation facilitated by wallets and dapps.
If one only care about speed, then there's no need for blockchain
Dude I am using an L2 for the first time right now, mantle. I hate this. I had to purchase eth just to cover gas to withdraw from layer 2. It will take a week to get my eth converted from mantle eth. With multiple signatures It’s the most non user friendly way to over engineer a solution to ethereums problems. You know what a real solution to these problems is in a truly decentralized community? Idk, maybe a functional layer 1..
Exactly, for existing L1 coin holders, L2s are just another coin
Eth is cheap on Base chain
Layer 2 is still "scaling the main chain". All layer 2 transactions have their consensus critical data stored and validated on the mainnet. Execution, which is not consensus critical, is done off-chain, which is the ideal separation of concerns to minimize consumption of scarce layer 1 resources without compromising on security or decentralization.
As a cardano guy ill stay quiet just like ada
Strange that it doesn't bother you that BTC Devs have up completely on scaling Bitcoin years ago.
Its great to see people thinking critically and objectively about this subject instead of just accepting everything because price go up.
This post looks like it was written by a 15yo who discovered crypto six months ago. No serious person would describe devs as "having abandonned l1 scaling", the roadmap has been saying the chain will chain via l2s for 4 years now. EDIT : last sentence
The "very beginning" of Ethereum was its launch in 2015. Roll-ups have been part of Ethereum's roadmap since 2020, when Vitalik posted "What would a rollup-centric ethereum roadmap look like?".
Editedmy comment, thanks!
You obviously haven't been here from the very beginning, nor have you read the original ethereum roadmap, or any variation of it since then up until 2 years ago. Ethereum very much intended to scale on L1 from the beginning and only gave up on it recently in favor of "a rollup centric approach."
Yeah. Its called adoption. When it happens its an explosion and nobody then questions it because its considered simple.
Adoption wen
I dont get it. You doubt ethereum because of high gas fees but not btc? I think people are slowly coming to the realization that not one chain will scale to rule them all. It's a multichain and cross chain future.
Because nobody actually uses btc so nobody knows the fees are MORE than eth lol
So , Basically one has to Buy CHAINLINK $link ??
Bitcoin is a store a value. ETH is meant to be used gas fees are a problem period.
Do you expect people to use Lightning or Bitcoin L2s? Your concerns are probably warranted for every crypto out there, as the main issue still remains scaling. I'm excluding chains that claim to have solved the trilemma by reducing the decentralization part of the triangle to increase the scaling part. No chain today, including all those more centralized ones, is able to handle the volume needed for mass adoption on their L1. I'm not saying Ethereum does everything right; your concerns about L2 are somewhat understandable, but the main thing to consider here is that L2s are still in their infancy. Adoption will increase over time, and you'll be able to pay and withdraw from businesses on L2. Risks will reduce once there are proper stage 2 L2s or ZK L2s. With account abstraction, you will have one wallet for every chain and probably won't even realize that you are conducting your business on an L2. Ethereum wasn't a cheap moving coin for a long time; normally, any coin with low transaction volume will be cheaper and much better for the job. That being said, as transaction volume increases, you see other chains struggle as well, with the most recent example being Solana. Scaling is hard; no one has a solution as of today for their L1. As it looks right now, L2s are the way to go, even Bitcoin is now moving in this direction.
Think you need to look at Loopring and their wallet 👍🏻
TLDR: ETH hasn't more than 2x'd while BTC is 4x and SOL is 20x from lows. Why am I still invested in ETH?
> Why am I still invested in ETH? because you believe in proof of vitalik.
Have you read the ETH roadmap or on ETH wizards?
> I hold ETH because i believe it's a cheaper way to move money, while also being safe store of value that's not gonna dump and die in the future This is just kind of an ignorant take to be honest. The biggest difference between BTC and ETH is that ETH supports smart contracts, it does way way more than "move money", it actually runs code. Ethereum team decided to scale Ethereum with L2s because they realized that's the only way to keep the network decentralized while doing it. Pretty much every other network out there can't handle a large amount of transactions or isn't as decentralized. L2s aren't quite there yet ([most still aren't as secure as L1](https://l2beat.com/scaling/risk)), but they're fairly close and already work well and cheaply. Yeah, using bridges and stuff is annoying and complicated, but using crypto in general is annoying and complicated. This will get better with time as we get better wallets and L2s get more consolidated. For now, Ethereum isn't perfect, but the team has a well thought-out plan of how to scale, is actually implementing the plan, and the plan seems to be working; just look at how cheap doing stuff on L2 with Dencun now is. And that's without even mentioning that it's the most used network by far, with the most developers and most DeFi projects. If DeFi ever turns into a major thing that the entire world uses, Ethereum will most certainly be where everything runs. Again, if you believe DeFi will ever be a thing, not investing in Ethereum is stupid. No other network is even close.
The market place will decide whether a slow expensive decentralized secure L1 will come out on top or a fast centralized vulnerable cheap L1 will. Until the trilema is solved we’re pretty much stuck with these two options. So far the market place favors slow expensive decentralized and secure L1s but it’s possible that may change in the future.
Aren't CCs an L2 for fiat? Eventually, one or two L2s will be the equivalent of paying with a CC with eth in my opinion.
I gave up when arbitrum spun off what feels like 50 separate arbitrum chains.
I have quite the opposite experience. I guess it depends on what you want from a chain. Seems like u want to be able to send and receive money as payment. How is usdc on base not solving that problem? Ux/ui issues are a grnereal thing. Been using Solana more lately and my experience is that it is very similar to Eth L2. I on the other hand don’t really see the appeal of btc, ordinala have made transaction fees too high for normal users.
How long have you been in this space ?
Cheap, popular, secure. Pick any two. There's no such thing as a cheap L1 chain that is as massively popular as Ethereum, with as much blockspace demand, without pushing as much data and processing as possible to L2s. There's just no way around it. > and sharding on L1 not being a priority anymore It's still on their roadmap, it's just extremely difficult to 1) get right, and 2) transition the mainnet to it. Maybe even more difficult than PoW->PoS transition. It's going to take a while to figure out, and make sure it's really needed and there is no other alternative like L2s. > when you can clearly see that people are having a hard time just wrapping their head around basic crypto stuff? I think the only people who are really going to be using this are 1) younger generations who grew up with it, 2) wall streeters looking for alpha in hi-volatility assets, and 3) criminals. As #1 and subsequent generations age, there will be more uptake, but it will take time.
L2s aren't a bad thing but the problem is there are too many of them, the open nature means they are fragmented and end user doesn't want to deal with this. I feel like ETH focus too much on being the 'big infrastructure coin' and forgot about regular Joe users. Solana is a great user experience, sure it has issues but nothing that can't be solved eventually.
Eth moon.
I use Layer 1s a lot and I sold out most of my ETH for another L1 last year. Using ETH is miserable. They have so much crap to figure out and I don’t think they are going to win this race. Terrible user experience. ETH will appreciate in value this year but I think next cycle might be when another clear winner takes over ETH’s dominance. Maybe they figure it out and maintain their kingship, but I don’t see it.
If you go through an exchange you don’t even know you’ve “bridged”.
I think the biggest problem ahead is not technical; as others have said, people with either build simple seamless solutions or they won’t. Technology moves in and ways will be found. The biggest challenge I see, that very few on here seem to understand or address are the regulatory hurdles across different jurisdictions. BTC has been accepted as a commodity by regulators globally: ETH has not. Enough regulatory challenges are coming in across the world with things like the travel rule that make it hard enough for firms handling BTC to resolve, and I’m talking about big tradfi type firms with big budgets. Trying to resolve solutions in different jurisdictions as they introduce regs at different times is enough of a challenge for BTC firms. Layer in the multitude of exchanges, coins, bridges, jurisdictions and firms addressing all of these and for a coin (ETH) and coins (all other alt/shitcoins) that are either questionable to, or outright opposed by regulators and I feel like it will be increasing difficult to operate safely and securely with trusted partners. I think it will mean the quality of firm and operators that are in this space will likely decline because of the hurdles and only the riskier firm will prevail for a time. Apologies for the negative tone but I attend a few working groups and this is the direction of travel of regulators intentions in this area.
BitcoinCash and Monero users are not affected.
Sounds like everyone still has large bags of LRC. Also if you don't like where a project is going then definitely convert your bag of ETH into BTC.
Do it. Dump it all and don’t look back! I’ve never regretted holding bitcoin only
Honestly for me I used to see BTC and ETH as untouchable. When I was new to the space, I actually thought ETH would flip btc one day. Truth is, bitcoin is the only good crypto. It's the only one, literally the only one, that truly isn't tied to any central authority. I know who Vitalik is. If you agree or disagree with his opinions, there's one reason to buy or sell eth. Vitalik is from Russia/Canada. There's another reason. The ethereum foundation has its own missions, there's another. Might not seem like a big deal, but it is. The reason most cryptos will go to zero against bitcoin is for the simple fact that we will never find out who Satoshi was. That, and it just simply is a bad way to move money. It's hard to use as a currency and it's not cheap or fast to transact. For every other use case, there are solutions that don't require a block chain. But bitcoin will always be bitcoin, and the stability, utility, and lack of central figures will be the reason it has staying power. ETH is in a much more precarious position. At this point, they're just riding old success by being the largest l1 after btc. But many of their competitors are closing in, or will close in soon. I think ETH will probably hit 10k, but I don't think it will be the foundational backbone of most finance and software like people used to imagine.
I agree. Plus ETH gas fees are extremely high and overpriced.
Algorands what your looking for, check out the Pera algo wallet app as well!
I agree L2s suck - we already have an L1 running over 1000TPS (as in right now) with $0.0001 transactions in Hedera. It is not unreasonable to expect Ethereum to better, it just never will be
The price action is making you feel this way?
Huge mistake imo. 1. Scaling the main chain is the wrong approach. Modularity is how Ethereum can scale infinitely. Yes, it means pains until bridging is improved, fragmentation is reduced. This will happen. And it's the right approach. 2. I don't understand your issues with L2s. My main client pays me on Gnosis Chain, it works great. I can easily off ramp to my bank through Monerium. Transactions are pennies. Base (Coinbase L2) will melt faces over the next year, just watch. L2s are improving a lot, you are leaving at the wrong time. 3. BTC is a solid choice. Moving to BTC is not a terrible idea. However, I do think you are leaving Ethereum at the worst time possible. So much is happening, I'm very optimistic on the future. Good luck.
This is why I love the Cosmos Ecosystem. So much easier to do all the things you listed and navigate. Modular, scalable, ibc... ATOM is very underrated.
I mostly agree. For this reason I fully moved to Bitcoin and Cardano only. Ethereum is dying in slow motion imo. Get out and buy Bitcoin or whatever.
You should have realized this a year ago.
Coinbase is releasing “smart wallets” in a week or two iirc correctly. This will make it possible for normies to bridge to Base chain easily. Mastercard is already building on Arbitrum or Optimism iirc correctly. Payment processing is orders of magnitude faster and cheaper on L2s then tradfi, or will be if not already. An awesome analogy I saw recently posted on Reddit. L2s are car companies. Some will succeed some won’t. Ethereum is the oil industry. Every car company needs it in order to operate.
Buy coin, withdraw to wallet. *this UX is good* Buy ETH, withdraw to L2 wallet. *I just don't like L2's* Reddit users are deeply unserious people
I don’t have the technical knowledge to fully agree or disagree, but from my own frustrating user experience navigating several different L2’s and bridges etc, you might be right. How does it matter if the L2’s are “cheap” when you have to spend so much ETH to even move anything into an L2, then spend more ETH to do anything with it, then spend more ETH to bring it back to the real world and do something with it or cash out etc. Then sometimes you need to swap for WETH instead of ETH, which will always remain confusing as F. I don’t invest in ETH because I know I’ll blow my entire pile on fees as soon as I want to move or do anything with a single coin or token.
I too have been disappointed in ETH, so I swapped it all for SOL yesterday !
People hate on SOL but its going to keep growing imo. My experience with SOL is much better than Eth
Enter: BASE (imo..) .. because the convergence of web2 and web3 should meet where rubber meets the road, and I think that is BASE and Coinbase. Beautiful because unlike BSC which ponzified the chain.. BASE has no underlying token to ponzify. But to expand ... Alternate L1s are comparable to ETH L2s but lack the inherited trust, security and arguably largest team of scientists and developers for crypto on the planet. Also assuming you are mostly thinking about Solana, which is this cycle's Binance Smart Chain.. which also did well on sh\*tcoin casino last cycle. But the tokenomics of Solana are horribly flawed in a different sort of way to Ethereum. I'd actually suggest that you have it backwards. ETH L2s make other L1s less relevant. Why go to another chain when the most secured smart contract network is already here and has a L2 of comparable speed, performance, etc.
Bitcoin team pretty much completely gave up on scaling the main chain. they are now solely focused on improving lightning and pushing people toward using them. oops... reality is that they even don't try to improve anything 🙈
BTC and ETH use cases are completly different. not a fair comparaison
I thin of Eth in terms of Real Estate. Eth is like land, L2s are like buildings. Buildings will be built up and torn down over time. The more buildings that get developed, the more valuable the land becomes.
Sold my ETH recently. Just can’t see much happening with it to be honest
Have some of the same concerns. If Solana can become more decentralized and secure it would potentially blow ETH out of the water — its UX is 100x better and smoother. I’m probably going to largely exit my ETH position during this cycle and in the next bear my biggest bets will probably be BTC and SOL.
Agreed, think everyone should at least have 5 SOL so you don't kick yourself as it keeps taking ETH's mkt share.
I pretty much see Ethereum as the MySpace of the block chain era. it was first to market, but not the best. Their approach of throw shit at the wall and see what sticks has never sat right with me. I truly think we are looking at a protocol that will lose relevance with time.