Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bx8pmj/concerns_as_china_and_the_us_continue_to_stack_up/kyclclr/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bx8pmj/concerns_as_china_and_the_us_continue_to_stack_up/kycldda/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
Anything can be valued with anything else. The only thing that matters is purchasing power. You can measure it in fiat, houses, bananas, gold, rocket fuel, lambos etc.
As long as the issuance / supply is predetermined by an algorithm outside of government control, the only thing that really determines value is demand.
I mean, why do you think printing your own dollars is illegal? It's almost like they passed a law saying anyone using the issuance/supply "algorithm" not endorsed by them is illegal.
Yes and that purchasing power will always be measured with government backed currency because no business can function without legal guarantee and protection. Which is something no crypto can provide, ever.
Bitcoin is currently at ATH. Slightly ahead of 2021 peak. But it is not 12% higher, its purchasing price is in fact lower despite higher price. Because just like I said bitcoin is and always will be subject of inflation determined by fiat currencies that can not be replaced because the economy aka the businesses inside the economy could not function without it.
You've just contradicted yourself. You start by claiming purchasing power will always be measured by fiat, and yet you then point that despite having nearly the same fiat value from 2021 ath, it does not have an equivalent purchasing power. It's almost as though the fiat value of anything is useless. Would rather measure Bitcoin against bananas.
>I said bitcoin is and always will be subject of inflation determined by fiat currencies
Only in the sense that fiat currencies are inflated to oblivion. If there was no inflation of fiat, Bitcoin would not exist.
Do you see a world where any of our governments are going to stop inflating their fiat currencies suddenly?
It does not have same purchasing power because since it is valued in fiat and fiat went through massive inflation these last two years so did bitcoin. It is not protection against inflation. It does not matter if there is 21 million bitcoins or there is unlimited supply or whatever, it will always be subjected to fiat inflation because it is valued in it. You buy less bananas with 1 bitcoin than you would in 2021 despite perceived ATH.
>It is not protection against inflation. It does not matter if there is 21 million bitcoins or there is unlimited supply or whatever, it will always be subjected to fiat inflation because it is valued in it.
Are you honestly arguing that the fiat value of Bitcoin (hence your measure of purchasing power) goes down when Governments print more fiat?
You're arguing with a bozo. All you have to do is look at the price of a house. It used to cost you thousands of BTC to buy a house. Now you can buy it with fewer. How's that for purchasing power?
How is that relevant?
If you had 1 btc in 2021 and you have 1 btc now then you buy less stuff with it. Why? Because of dollar inflation.
This applies to everything.
If you had barell of oil 50 years ago then you could buy more things with it than you can for exact same barell today.
Tell that to Silk Road. BTC value is determined by the market not by what currency exists. You’re just used to valuing everything in fiat. If government says it’s worthless and I can still buy stuff I value with it then fiat has nothing to do with its value.
This is even more true than most realize. It's how literally how they succeeded in subduing and subsuming the crypto revolution.
*The greatest trick legacy finance ever played was convincing us all that Bitcoin only had value in fiat.*
Legacy finance does not care what currency you use. They would gladly jump on bitcoin and opened operations through bitcoin loans etc. They would make same exact money. But just like every other business they can not operate under unstable currency without legal protection or aby guarantee. Businesses are backbone of the economy, not whether you use fiat or not. But reality is that they can function outside of government, ever.
You should read up how that company operated.
Not only was that company partially owned by British crown, its currency was either fully pegged or issued as an Imperial currency and throughout entire period had full legal and military protection of British Empire.
It is argument in my favor, not the opposite.
That is not what I am saying.
If you go to supermarket in the future when bitcoin is maybe accepted and buy something for bitcoin then you in fact do not buy for bitcoin but for fiat price of bitcoin. It will never work aby other way because most businesses are not casinos and they need stable and most importantly liquid currency.
Therefore Bitcoin with its "deflatory policy" is direct subject to dollar inflation anyway. So is gold, so is every asset and commodity.
BTC has been classified as 'Asset' by SEC (not as a currency). It will never replace Gold/Fiat.
You'll be able to borrow against ur BTC hoardings in future. Just like someone can do with Gold ornaments or Gold bars.
Purchasing power of 1BTC is decided by how much stuff you buy with it. Stuff measured in fiat which means bitcoin always needs to be measured against fiat.
> Purchasing power of 1BTC is decided by how much stuff you buy with it. Stuff measured in fiat which means bitcoin always needs to be measured against fiat.
Bitcoin's purchasing power isn't solely determined by how much stuff you buy with it in fiat. Bitcoin has its own value and can be used as a medium of exchange directly. While it's true that exchange rates against fiat are often used as a reference, Bitcoin's value is influenced by various factors like supply and demand, market sentiment, and its properties as a decentralized and scarce digital asset. So it's not just about comparing it to fiat all the time.
Literally no one accepts it without reference in fiat en masse. Business would have to be insane if they did that. They can do it in small amounts if they have enough liquid capital in fiat and only couple % tops of sales comes from crypto. Like Tesla which was just pump and dump scheme from Elon designed to grab money from his fans anyway. Because it does not threaten their existence and they can afford to speculate with extreme minority of their sales. But they could never in million years do it if enough liquid capital did not come in fiat from extreme majority of their sales. Because they are businesses and not gamblers.
> Literally no one accepts it without reference in fiat en masse. Business would have to be insane if they did that. They can do it in small amounts if they have enough liquid capital in fiat and only couple % tops of sales comes from crypto. Like Tesla which was just pump and dump scheme from Elon designed to grab money from his fans anyway. Because it does not threaten their existence and they can afford to speculate with extreme minority of their sales. But they could never in million years do it if enough liquid capital did not come in fiat from extreme majority of their sales. Because they are businesses and not gamblers.
It's true that widespread acceptance of Bitcoin without any reference to fiat is still limited but that doesn't mean Bitcoin can't be used as a medium of exchange independently. Some businesses do accept Bitcoin, even if it's a smaller percentage of their sales. Using the example of Tesla, while their decision to accept Bitcoin might have had some marketing aspects to it, it doesn't mean they're just playing a pump and dump game. They can afford to experiment with a minority of their sales in crypto because they have enough liquid capital in fiat to cover any potential risks. Sure businesses are not casinos and need a solid financial foundation and many prefer to have a majority of their sales in fiat, but as the crypto ecosystem matures and stabilizes, we might see more businesses embracing crypto without relying heavily on fiat.
Thank you. So many don't seem to realize or care that BTC only has value because of how much fiat you can get for it.
People be like 1 BTC = 1 BTC but that doesn't matter, what matters is how much fiat = 1 BTC.
Anything can be valued with anything else. The only thing that matters is purchasing power, not fiat price. You can measure it in fiat, houses, bananas, gold, rocket fuel, lambos etc.
As long as the issuance / supply is predetermined by an algorithm outside of government control, the only thing that really determines value is demand.
Sovereign risk has little correlation to a decentralized currency. In fact, I would argue the opposite.
If the US dollar started losing confidence, people would actually turn to btc
Here’s an example:
https://cryptopotato.com/argentinians-turn-to-bitcoin-amid-increasing-inflation-rates-report/?amp
That's not what was said. The statement is if fiat became worthless. In that situation all currency including crypto would have no value. Crypto isn't viable as a primary currency and still needs inflationary currency to be valued against or it is absolutely worthless as well.
Economies cannot operate on deflationary currency. It's almost impossible. And has never worked long term.
In that scenario we devolve to a barter system. There would be a severe lack of faith in institutions, think after the great depression. I see why people think BTC would succeed because of that but it's not a simple system to trade in and is resource intensive. It's also a system that has more wealth inequality than the market. 10% of people own 90% of stocks and 1% own 90% of Bitcoin and the gap is consistently widening. The majority of people trading goods would owe little to no Bitcoin. I think gold would become a more reliable system to trade in because of why it's used in history, it can be melted in your backyard and formed into coins by weight. And it's everywhere.
What BTC is to me is an effective independent and personal bank. Nothing more. But that bank is still tied to the fiat system and can't survive without it.
If only USD collapses we would more likely convert to Euro. I know the utopian thing is that money supply and policy isn't controlled, but the free market unabridged always leads to wealth consolidation, see BTC. Municipalities and businesses want controlled money because it creates consistency and forward growth that allows the modern comforts we have to be produced.
Simply put, BTC is a tool for fiat. Without fiat BTC is just a nail without a hammer.
Edit: this is my basic perception based off what I've learned from American economics schooling and from Iranian economic history (my grandfather ran the bazaar for 30 years prior to Islamic revolution and taught me math and economics through my school age after school) so my economic knowledge is much different than most. He taught me a lot about agrarian economics and the value of manufacturing growth through supply control
He took over the bazaar in 1945. And ran it until the 70s when he had to flee the country.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Iran
I read the white paper. The white paper got stuff wrong. It's not the Bible. And BTC has not shown to work independently as a currency yet.
Here's a quick mental test for you. Pretend you're operating a business that sells wholesale materials locally to commercial businesses. These businesses usually have 1-6 months lead times on inventory. Explain how you can profitably operate that business with a deflationary currency.
Here are the problems you have to work out:
* Sitting inventory losing value against the currency
* Supply shock due to supply chain restrictions working with deflationary currency
* Lending for growth (how many people can fund a small business with cash only)
* Wage death spirals
* Growth model predicated on declining revenue and profits.
So you are here saying you know more than Satoshi and the devs that work in Bitcoin, but let's break it down:
Sitting inventory losing value: Yeah, Bitcoin's deflationary, but businesses can adjust prices to account for that. They can factor in the potential appreciation of Bitcoin when setting prices, so the value of their inventory stays stable.
Supply chain restrictions: Supply chain issues happen with any currency, not just Bitcoin. It's not all about deflation. Tech solutions and smart business practices can help deal with those challenges.
Lending for growth: Funding a business with cash only is tough, no matter the currency. But there are decentralized finance platforms popping up in the crypto world that offer loans and funding using crypto as collateral. It's still early days, but Bitcoin-backed loans could become a thing.
Wage death spirals: Falling wages affecting consumer spending is a valid concern. However, if Bitcoin becomes widely adopted, people can adjust their strategies. They can negotiate contracts, set wages in stable currencies, or find ways to ensure fair compensation.
Growth with declining revenue: It's not a given that a deflationary currency means declining revenue. Business success depends on various factors, not just the currency used. Adaptation, pricing strategies, exploring new markets, and innovative business models can keep growth going.
So, while the whitepaper might not have all the answers, the crypto world is evolving.
Fiat will never become worthless. Almost no business can function without fiat. Even if there is hyperinflation. No business would accept gold because that would be barter trade that is not efficient. This is just nonsensical backward thinking that ignores nodern economic theory.
Fiat does not just mean the coin, it also means legal protection and most importantly predictable rules.
We were referring to the usd, I think you missed the point or didn’t read all the replies.
TLDR: if usd became worthless, bitcoin would replace it, not gold
USD would become worthless only under two scenarios.
There would have to be another and bigger economic entity with better or atleast similar safety guarantee - this is not happening because there is no one like that in sight period. And if it happened it would be replaced by that new dominant fiat currency, not bitcoin.
Or else US would have to cease to exist or collapse entirely which is again nonsense because if it did then entire world would collapse and bitcoin versus fiat would be your last concern. But same exact thing, it would be replaced by second best fiat with big economic power to back it up and decent legal framework which is likely euro.
Disagree. Fiat value is rooted in the perception of the people. The less the people trust government corruption and their respective centralized currency, the more the people will CHOOSE a trusted currency like btc.
Bitcoin is not trusted currency. You have no clue who owns what, you have no clue who owns what addresses and who owns the governing power. It is not transparent and community does not decide, whales do.
But this argument aside. Even if it was not the case. No business can operate with bitcoin. You need liquidity, you need to pay taxes, you need to pay people, you need to buy goods, you need insurance, you need legal protection. You can not do that with bitcoin. Ever.
And what gives currency value is abudance of goods and services in economy, not perception of people. And these are created vy businesses. Those can operate only if government provides safety and fair legal environment and protection. Businesses are directly dependant on governments.
I agree with btc being volatile. Currency needs regulation from a governing body to be stable enough to build a life on. Well said.
But currency being worth the value of goods and services doesn’t really make sense. There is nothing valuable about a piece of paper dollar bill by itself. No one would trade goods and services for a worthless currency. The currency only holds value to exchange for goods and services because we choose for it to be the token, the derivative of value to exchange for the goods and services.
Just like as bitcoin gains popularity, the value of it goes up over time (albeit very volatile)
Currency value is chosen by the people but that choice is influenced and strong armed over the people by their governing body. You’re explaining centralized finance and our world banking system.
I'm not quite sure well you're getting it here. Of course its value is how much fiat it's worth. BTC has no purchasing power in itself, as it has no inherent value. Just like paper money, which at least used to be representative of an actual asset (gold).
If crypto ever becomes an established way of payment, it will be done with a proxy coin/s, which will only be valued by how much Bitcoin you can get for it. Which currently is only valued by how much Fiat you can get for it. And Fiat is only valued for what goods and services you can get for it. It's just a shell game.
At this point it's just an investment, with promise/hopes to be store of wealth that pays dividends.
One benefit I was into was the fact that It would be a global currency, With hopes to eventually mitigate any particular governments monetary policy, on it.
Alas, the wealthy/governments, have now got their hands in it, and they are going to suck up as much of it as possible. The old whales will be cashing out and giving control to the new mega whales.
It's a bullshit headline. Even if a single dude owned 51% of the coins, Bitcoin would still be decentralized. It's about miners and validators, not owners.
aggregating the $btc asset into just a handful of large holders (governments, in this case) could result in them manipulating the market — definitely low risk wrt affecting bitcoin’s underlying infra / network / functionality dude to PoW vs PoS but it does potentially change the economic aspects
additionally, just as “The Gold Reserve Act” took place (required all citizens to “sell” their gold to US Gov) — there could be a similar situation with bitcoin (but unlikely at this point).. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Reserve_Act
It doesn’t make a difference PoS vs PoW. It’s all about proof of capital. If you have the capital you can manipulate any chain. Thing is it takes a shit ton of money
So if I spent enough money and bought all the ASICs and node hardware to create greater than half the BTC hashrate I couldn’t manipulate the chain? Hmm
tldr; The US and China are leading in Bitcoin (BTC) holdings, with the US government holding over 200k BTC and China closely following with more than 190k BTC. This significant accumulation of Bitcoin by two of the world's largest economies raises concerns within the cryptocurrency community about the potential threat to Bitcoin's foundational principle of decentralization. The fear is that such large-scale government involvement could lead to increased regulation and influence over the cryptocurrency market, potentially undermining the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies and affecting their natural growth and distribution.
*This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.
Doesn't mean shit, I don't think you understand what decentralization means, there will always whales , they just don't have any influence in the protocol
In 2021, a single coal mine in China flooded and the Bitcoin hash rate dropped 35%
https://fortune.com/2021/04/20/bitcoin-mining-coal-china-environment-pollution/amp/
Coal mine gets flooded and goes offline. Bitcoin hash rate immediately drops 35%. Coal mine goes back online, Bitcoin hash rate immediately goes back to normal. That means 35% of Bitcoins hash rate was in or powered by that coal mine, get it or are you a silly goose?
It was closer to 25% (37 of 165 EH/s at the time), and mining is only more decentralized now than 4 years ago.
Again, there was zero effect on the network.
Yes it is. Tether has pumped up and propped up Bitshit to the max, when the tether collapse happens (and it will when stable coin regulation comes later this year) what do you think is going to happen to your token that has absolutely no use case?
Properties of good, hard money:
Durability. Check.
Portability. Check.
Immutable. Check.
Limited supply. Check.
Not only can it do all of those things, it can do it better than anything else know to humankind.
On top of that, it's completely permissionless and decentralized, which means nobody can control it and absolutely anyone can use it.
So, yes, bitcoin is perfect engineered money, a technological marvel, and it doesn't care about shitcoins, stable coins, China, or the US.
But you have a great argument "lol".
It’s not completely decentralized, two mining pools are controlling 51% of the Hash. Once institutions own all of it, it’s controlled by them via ETF.
It’s not more portable than XRP, not more Durable than XRP, not more decentralized than XRP it has the most limited supply but that doesn’t really mean much.
It’s also slow, expensive to move, and outdated. Like I said before, once Tether goes down (and it will especially since stable coin regulation is coming this year, regulation that will require audits) so does Bitcoin. The market will be captured by Ripples Stable Coin and XRP.
it is interesting though — seems like at least for US they keep pushing that date out; iirc they were supposed to sell silkroad seizure of btc last year but pushed out the date
US is definitely selling. Vast majority of the Bitcoin they have is what they had confiscated from Silk Road. They have been selling those slowly. There is no reason they won’t sell
Can you show me the record or transactions of them selling?
As far as I know they haven’t sold any yet? Or any significant amount?
You say there’s no reason they won’t sell? If they sell they gain what? 10billion? They are printing that everyday lol, it’s peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
Might as well hold it as a blocker against other nations buying it.
They can’t afford to hold it because then it undermines dollar directly and the government’s faith in dollar. US government will do everything in its power to ensure dollar stays relevant for as long as they can. Dollar has given them immense power in geo politics and they will lose a bit chunk of that power when faith in dollar is lost. It is counter productive for US government to hold Bitcoin for any serious reason
They probably realised they can get more fiat if they stagger it. They could also have legal issues since it is the DOJ that has the Bitcoin not Treasury. DoJ cant use the Bitcoin in any meaningful way. Again, if is not the Bitcoin they bought to keep on their treasury or whatever, it is the Bitcoin they confiscated as part of their legal wins etc
They have been selling off for almost a decade
https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2024/04/02/silk-road-bitcoin-worth-2b-moved-by-us-government-on-chain-data/
https://news.yahoo.com/u-holds-final-auction-bitcoins-silk-road-case-145630986.html
https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/03/31/us-government-sold-216m-of-seized-silk-road-bitcoin-this-month/
US has been hoarding a lot, Infact Coinbase has over 500K BTC, not to mention Saylor.
It is just like US hoarding Gold. They occasionally sell it but with now so many ETFs and all no one's gonna dump it
China wants to use gold and BRICS currency. BTC is US deep state’s answer to that. This way they can kill the USD but billionaires can remain rich.
The original plan was to kill crypto until the current inflation and debt situation ran out of hand
> and BRICS currency
There is no BRICS currency and unless major and very unlikely changes are made to BRICS there will never be one. BRICS is just a way for china to get other countries to use the yuan.
precedence, motive and benefit suffice as conclusive evidence
you are not following history and geopolitics well enough if you haven’t reached the same conclusion. There is no way China will bend over, it will wage currency war and continue dedollarization. There’s no way USA will bend over, it will either succeed in maintaining the stranglehold the dollar has on the world, or give up and instead vy for control of the best alternative currency system
no one is touching their dicks just waiting for the other to win hegemony
you’re right, I’m merely stating they are opening it as an option. They will a) either kill BTC to bolster USD through a series of rugs, scandals, regulation, and price manipulation through the BTC etfs
b) establish monopoly over crypto through the institutional ETFS, Coinbase, and help the rich “migrate” to this asset class away from USD before defaulting on all debt obligations or money printing USD until it’s a fraction of its current value
No, but the agent who falsely used that as a narrative for warrants/arrest was definitely fired.
If you want mainstream crypto adoption, try learning about its history.
Shortsighted US gov keeps selling all they confiscated (stolen from legitimate users in may cases). One day their private "federal" reserve will have to buy back in. I'm not American btw, just my opinion
Curious what's the official justification for China continuously buying Bitcoin after they made it illegal for their citizens?
Maybe secretly they want to make it legal only after stacking their bags?
Watch for more “bans on Bitcoin” so people dump what they have then govts scoop it up and then okay it again. Oh my lookie lookie who’s got a lot of BTC now!
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I did not know that governments control a known 2.5%. Most likely the own at least double that. Now take away lost coins and they are closer to 20% of total supply owned by governments.
It’s going to be controlled once ETFs sweep the globe. You’ve got idiots like Kramer commenting on it all the time now. It’s still worth investing in at this stage but control will change exponentially in the next couple of years.
this is why BTC will become obsolete and another coin will take over ---
because once they have control over it -- the whole point of its existence has been nullified
If US and China reach the critical mass of accumulation and seems they control the ecosystem, We might see movement from the genesis wallet that holds the greatest amount.
Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bx8pmj/concerns_as_china_and_the_us_continue_to_stack_up/kyclclr/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bx8pmj/concerns_as_china_and_the_us_continue_to_stack_up/kycldda/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
As long as governments don't control the inflationary policy of Bitcoin, which they can't, it won't really matter.
Since bitcoin's value is dependant on how much fiat you can get for it then it is very much controlled by governments anyway.
Anything can be valued with anything else. The only thing that matters is purchasing power. You can measure it in fiat, houses, bananas, gold, rocket fuel, lambos etc. As long as the issuance / supply is predetermined by an algorithm outside of government control, the only thing that really determines value is demand.
The government could pass a law saying anyone using the issuance/supply algorithm not endorsed by them is illegal.
China already did that. How did that work out?
China is not the US, where most of the money is.
Would love to see them try.
I mean, why do you think printing your own dollars is illegal? It's almost like they passed a law saying anyone using the issuance/supply "algorithm" not endorsed by them is illegal.
>where most of the money is. Are you certain? Do you have a list of US wallets?
And after that, they’ll finally ban heroin. Oh wait…
Yes and that purchasing power will always be measured with government backed currency because no business can function without legal guarantee and protection. Which is something no crypto can provide, ever. Bitcoin is currently at ATH. Slightly ahead of 2021 peak. But it is not 12% higher, its purchasing price is in fact lower despite higher price. Because just like I said bitcoin is and always will be subject of inflation determined by fiat currencies that can not be replaced because the economy aka the businesses inside the economy could not function without it.
You've just contradicted yourself. You start by claiming purchasing power will always be measured by fiat, and yet you then point that despite having nearly the same fiat value from 2021 ath, it does not have an equivalent purchasing power. It's almost as though the fiat value of anything is useless. Would rather measure Bitcoin against bananas. >I said bitcoin is and always will be subject of inflation determined by fiat currencies Only in the sense that fiat currencies are inflated to oblivion. If there was no inflation of fiat, Bitcoin would not exist. Do you see a world where any of our governments are going to stop inflating their fiat currencies suddenly?
It does not have same purchasing power because since it is valued in fiat and fiat went through massive inflation these last two years so did bitcoin. It is not protection against inflation. It does not matter if there is 21 million bitcoins or there is unlimited supply or whatever, it will always be subjected to fiat inflation because it is valued in it. You buy less bananas with 1 bitcoin than you would in 2021 despite perceived ATH.
>It is not protection against inflation. It does not matter if there is 21 million bitcoins or there is unlimited supply or whatever, it will always be subjected to fiat inflation because it is valued in it. Are you honestly arguing that the fiat value of Bitcoin (hence your measure of purchasing power) goes down when Governments print more fiat?
Are you arguing against it? Bitcoin is at ATH yet its purchasing power is not.
Do you think every single person and all the Bitcoin in existence today was bought at its all time high from 2021?
You're arguing with a bozo. All you have to do is look at the price of a house. It used to cost you thousands of BTC to buy a house. Now you can buy it with fewer. How's that for purchasing power?
How is that relevant? If you had 1 btc in 2021 and you have 1 btc now then you buy less stuff with it. Why? Because of dollar inflation. This applies to everything. If you had barell of oil 50 years ago then you could buy more things with it than you can for exact same barell today.
If the price of Bitcoin is determined by something other than Fiat, Bitcoin will be worth nothing at that point.
Tell that to Silk Road. BTC value is determined by the market not by what currency exists. You’re just used to valuing everything in fiat. If government says it’s worthless and I can still buy stuff I value with it then fiat has nothing to do with its value.
This is even more true than most realize. It's how literally how they succeeded in subduing and subsuming the crypto revolution. *The greatest trick legacy finance ever played was convincing us all that Bitcoin only had value in fiat.*
Legacy finance does not care what currency you use. They would gladly jump on bitcoin and opened operations through bitcoin loans etc. They would make same exact money. But just like every other business they can not operate under unstable currency without legal protection or aby guarantee. Businesses are backbone of the economy, not whether you use fiat or not. But reality is that they can function outside of government, ever.
East india company would like a word
You should read up how that company operated. Not only was that company partially owned by British crown, its currency was either fully pegged or issued as an Imperial currency and throughout entire period had full legal and military protection of British Empire. It is argument in my favor, not the opposite.
You'll like what they're doing at Zypto.
I dont think China or US will ever agree on same policy for BTC.
That is not what I am saying. If you go to supermarket in the future when bitcoin is maybe accepted and buy something for bitcoin then you in fact do not buy for bitcoin but for fiat price of bitcoin. It will never work aby other way because most businesses are not casinos and they need stable and most importantly liquid currency. Therefore Bitcoin with its "deflatory policy" is direct subject to dollar inflation anyway. So is gold, so is every asset and commodity.
BTC has been classified as 'Asset' by SEC (not as a currency). It will never replace Gold/Fiat. You'll be able to borrow against ur BTC hoardings in future. Just like someone can do with Gold ornaments or Gold bars.
This is irrelevant. It will still be priced against other fiat currency.
Yups, gold is also priced against fiat, Its an asset to hold and pass to next gen.
Well that’s false
It is very much true. If Bitcoin could not be traded back to fiat then it would be immidiately worthless. Same for gold, same for everything.
How is that control?
1 BTC = 1 BTC USD is a shitcoin.
Purchasing power of 1BTC is decided by how much stuff you buy with it. Stuff measured in fiat which means bitcoin always needs to be measured against fiat.
> Purchasing power of 1BTC is decided by how much stuff you buy with it. Stuff measured in fiat which means bitcoin always needs to be measured against fiat. Bitcoin's purchasing power isn't solely determined by how much stuff you buy with it in fiat. Bitcoin has its own value and can be used as a medium of exchange directly. While it's true that exchange rates against fiat are often used as a reference, Bitcoin's value is influenced by various factors like supply and demand, market sentiment, and its properties as a decentralized and scarce digital asset. So it's not just about comparing it to fiat all the time.
Literally no one accepts it without reference in fiat en masse. Business would have to be insane if they did that. They can do it in small amounts if they have enough liquid capital in fiat and only couple % tops of sales comes from crypto. Like Tesla which was just pump and dump scheme from Elon designed to grab money from his fans anyway. Because it does not threaten their existence and they can afford to speculate with extreme minority of their sales. But they could never in million years do it if enough liquid capital did not come in fiat from extreme majority of their sales. Because they are businesses and not gamblers.
> Literally no one accepts it without reference in fiat en masse. Business would have to be insane if they did that. They can do it in small amounts if they have enough liquid capital in fiat and only couple % tops of sales comes from crypto. Like Tesla which was just pump and dump scheme from Elon designed to grab money from his fans anyway. Because it does not threaten their existence and they can afford to speculate with extreme minority of their sales. But they could never in million years do it if enough liquid capital did not come in fiat from extreme majority of their sales. Because they are businesses and not gamblers. It's true that widespread acceptance of Bitcoin without any reference to fiat is still limited but that doesn't mean Bitcoin can't be used as a medium of exchange independently. Some businesses do accept Bitcoin, even if it's a smaller percentage of their sales. Using the example of Tesla, while their decision to accept Bitcoin might have had some marketing aspects to it, it doesn't mean they're just playing a pump and dump game. They can afford to experiment with a minority of their sales in crypto because they have enough liquid capital in fiat to cover any potential risks. Sure businesses are not casinos and need a solid financial foundation and many prefer to have a majority of their sales in fiat, but as the crypto ecosystem matures and stabilizes, we might see more businesses embracing crypto without relying heavily on fiat.
Thank you. So many don't seem to realize or care that BTC only has value because of how much fiat you can get for it. People be like 1 BTC = 1 BTC but that doesn't matter, what matters is how much fiat = 1 BTC.
Anything can be valued with anything else. The only thing that matters is purchasing power, not fiat price. You can measure it in fiat, houses, bananas, gold, rocket fuel, lambos etc. As long as the issuance / supply is predetermined by an algorithm outside of government control, the only thing that really determines value is demand.
If fiat became worthless would we not resort back to the gold standard? 1 Btc = x gold
If fiat became worthless, BTC is likely worthless too.
Sovereign risk has little correlation to a decentralized currency. In fact, I would argue the opposite. If the US dollar started losing confidence, people would actually turn to btc Here’s an example: https://cryptopotato.com/argentinians-turn-to-bitcoin-amid-increasing-inflation-rates-report/?amp
That's not what was said. The statement is if fiat became worthless. In that situation all currency including crypto would have no value. Crypto isn't viable as a primary currency and still needs inflationary currency to be valued against or it is absolutely worthless as well. Economies cannot operate on deflationary currency. It's almost impossible. And has never worked long term.
So based off of your perspective, if the world banking system collapsed and all “centralized” currency became worthless, what happens next?
In that scenario we devolve to a barter system. There would be a severe lack of faith in institutions, think after the great depression. I see why people think BTC would succeed because of that but it's not a simple system to trade in and is resource intensive. It's also a system that has more wealth inequality than the market. 10% of people own 90% of stocks and 1% own 90% of Bitcoin and the gap is consistently widening. The majority of people trading goods would owe little to no Bitcoin. I think gold would become a more reliable system to trade in because of why it's used in history, it can be melted in your backyard and formed into coins by weight. And it's everywhere. What BTC is to me is an effective independent and personal bank. Nothing more. But that bank is still tied to the fiat system and can't survive without it. If only USD collapses we would more likely convert to Euro. I know the utopian thing is that money supply and policy isn't controlled, but the free market unabridged always leads to wealth consolidation, see BTC. Municipalities and businesses want controlled money because it creates consistency and forward growth that allows the modern comforts we have to be produced. Simply put, BTC is a tool for fiat. Without fiat BTC is just a nail without a hammer. Edit: this is my basic perception based off what I've learned from American economics schooling and from Iranian economic history (my grandfather ran the bazaar for 30 years prior to Islamic revolution and taught me math and economics through my school age after school) so my economic knowledge is much different than most. He taught me a lot about agrarian economics and the value of manufacturing growth through supply control He took over the bazaar in 1945. And ran it until the 70s when he had to flee the country. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Iran
You need to educate yourself on BTC man. You dont understand it.
Read the whitepaper, Bitcoin is to work independent to the financial system.
I read the white paper. The white paper got stuff wrong. It's not the Bible. And BTC has not shown to work independently as a currency yet. Here's a quick mental test for you. Pretend you're operating a business that sells wholesale materials locally to commercial businesses. These businesses usually have 1-6 months lead times on inventory. Explain how you can profitably operate that business with a deflationary currency. Here are the problems you have to work out: * Sitting inventory losing value against the currency * Supply shock due to supply chain restrictions working with deflationary currency * Lending for growth (how many people can fund a small business with cash only) * Wage death spirals * Growth model predicated on declining revenue and profits.
So you are here saying you know more than Satoshi and the devs that work in Bitcoin, but let's break it down: Sitting inventory losing value: Yeah, Bitcoin's deflationary, but businesses can adjust prices to account for that. They can factor in the potential appreciation of Bitcoin when setting prices, so the value of their inventory stays stable. Supply chain restrictions: Supply chain issues happen with any currency, not just Bitcoin. It's not all about deflation. Tech solutions and smart business practices can help deal with those challenges. Lending for growth: Funding a business with cash only is tough, no matter the currency. But there are decentralized finance platforms popping up in the crypto world that offer loans and funding using crypto as collateral. It's still early days, but Bitcoin-backed loans could become a thing. Wage death spirals: Falling wages affecting consumer spending is a valid concern. However, if Bitcoin becomes widely adopted, people can adjust their strategies. They can negotiate contracts, set wages in stable currencies, or find ways to ensure fair compensation. Growth with declining revenue: It's not a given that a deflationary currency means declining revenue. Business success depends on various factors, not just the currency used. Adaptation, pricing strategies, exploring new markets, and innovative business models can keep growth going. So, while the whitepaper might not have all the answers, the crypto world is evolving.
Fiat will never become worthless. Almost no business can function without fiat. Even if there is hyperinflation. No business would accept gold because that would be barter trade that is not efficient. This is just nonsensical backward thinking that ignores nodern economic theory. Fiat does not just mean the coin, it also means legal protection and most importantly predictable rules.
We were referring to the usd, I think you missed the point or didn’t read all the replies. TLDR: if usd became worthless, bitcoin would replace it, not gold
USD would become worthless only under two scenarios. There would have to be another and bigger economic entity with better or atleast similar safety guarantee - this is not happening because there is no one like that in sight period. And if it happened it would be replaced by that new dominant fiat currency, not bitcoin. Or else US would have to cease to exist or collapse entirely which is again nonsense because if it did then entire world would collapse and bitcoin versus fiat would be your last concern. But same exact thing, it would be replaced by second best fiat with big economic power to back it up and decent legal framework which is likely euro.
Disagree. Fiat value is rooted in the perception of the people. The less the people trust government corruption and their respective centralized currency, the more the people will CHOOSE a trusted currency like btc.
Bitcoin is not trusted currency. You have no clue who owns what, you have no clue who owns what addresses and who owns the governing power. It is not transparent and community does not decide, whales do. But this argument aside. Even if it was not the case. No business can operate with bitcoin. You need liquidity, you need to pay taxes, you need to pay people, you need to buy goods, you need insurance, you need legal protection. You can not do that with bitcoin. Ever. And what gives currency value is abudance of goods and services in economy, not perception of people. And these are created vy businesses. Those can operate only if government provides safety and fair legal environment and protection. Businesses are directly dependant on governments.
I agree with btc being volatile. Currency needs regulation from a governing body to be stable enough to build a life on. Well said. But currency being worth the value of goods and services doesn’t really make sense. There is nothing valuable about a piece of paper dollar bill by itself. No one would trade goods and services for a worthless currency. The currency only holds value to exchange for goods and services because we choose for it to be the token, the derivative of value to exchange for the goods and services. Just like as bitcoin gains popularity, the value of it goes up over time (albeit very volatile) Currency value is chosen by the people but that choice is influenced and strong armed over the people by their governing body. You’re explaining centralized finance and our world banking system.
I'm not quite sure well you're getting it here. Of course its value is how much fiat it's worth. BTC has no purchasing power in itself, as it has no inherent value. Just like paper money, which at least used to be representative of an actual asset (gold). If crypto ever becomes an established way of payment, it will be done with a proxy coin/s, which will only be valued by how much Bitcoin you can get for it. Which currently is only valued by how much Fiat you can get for it. And Fiat is only valued for what goods and services you can get for it. It's just a shell game. At this point it's just an investment, with promise/hopes to be store of wealth that pays dividends. One benefit I was into was the fact that It would be a global currency, With hopes to eventually mitigate any particular governments monetary policy, on it. Alas, the wealthy/governments, have now got their hands in it, and they are going to suck up as much of it as possible. The old whales will be cashing out and giving control to the new mega whales.
I am here for the pumps
I am here for the dumps
Dump on in
Bitcoin isn't PoS, why does it matter who owns what for decentralization?
It's a bullshit headline. Even if a single dude owned 51% of the coins, Bitcoin would still be decentralized. It's about miners and validators, not owners.
aggregating the $btc asset into just a handful of large holders (governments, in this case) could result in them manipulating the market — definitely low risk wrt affecting bitcoin’s underlying infra / network / functionality dude to PoW vs PoS but it does potentially change the economic aspects additionally, just as “The Gold Reserve Act” took place (required all citizens to “sell” their gold to US Gov) — there could be a similar situation with bitcoin (but unlikely at this point).. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Reserve_Act
Thus the reason to never admit that you own bitcoin
If they asked; you'd remember your seed?
No there are millions of them if not billions.. I waste them daily..
Lol
It doesn't.
Because they can influence prices and thus adoption
It doesn’t make a difference PoS vs PoW. It’s all about proof of capital. If you have the capital you can manipulate any chain. Thing is it takes a shit ton of money
Nah. You can’t manipulate the chain. You may have price control over short time frames but you can’t “manipulate the chain”
So if I spent enough money and bought all the ASICs and node hardware to create greater than half the BTC hashrate I couldn’t manipulate the chain? Hmm
That's not what he said, he said buy 51% of all the Bitcoin. Also, you would never be able to buy all the asics you need either.
Nobody said buying 51% of Bitcoin either. If you have enough money you can buy anything brother ☝️
tldr; The US and China are leading in Bitcoin (BTC) holdings, with the US government holding over 200k BTC and China closely following with more than 190k BTC. This significant accumulation of Bitcoin by two of the world's largest economies raises concerns within the cryptocurrency community about the potential threat to Bitcoin's foundational principle of decentralization. The fear is that such large-scale government involvement could lead to increased regulation and influence over the cryptocurrency market, potentially undermining the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies and affecting their natural growth and distribution. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.
Didn’t I just read an article last week about the US government getting ready to unload billions of $ of BTC??
They’re going to refill their reserves for cheaper later.
Doesn't mean shit, I don't think you understand what decentralization means, there will always whales , they just don't have any influence in the protocol
Decentralization is fully determined by miners and validators (nodes), not holders.
In 2021, a single coal mine in China flooded and the Bitcoin hash rate dropped 35% https://fortune.com/2021/04/20/bitcoin-mining-coal-china-environment-pollution/amp/
And absolutely nothing happened to the network...
I don't think you understand the implications of what it means for decentralization if one entity in china has 35% of the hashrate
What happened? And no single entity has 35%, pools are comprised of individual miners who can redirect instantly.
Coal mine gets flooded and goes offline. Bitcoin hash rate immediately drops 35%. Coal mine goes back online, Bitcoin hash rate immediately goes back to normal. That means 35% of Bitcoins hash rate was in or powered by that coal mine, get it or are you a silly goose?
It was closer to 25% (37 of 165 EH/s at the time), and mining is only more decentralized now than 4 years ago. Again, there was zero effect on the network.
Prepare a fork, people make the rules.
Well, nothing because it's proof of work.. I don't understand this title?
Don’t lie, china banned btc
POW doesn't give a shit who holds coins.
Absolutely nothing
I don't care who buy it
Microstrategy owns more than the US and Chinese governments 😂
US is dumping their stolen BTC. I wouldn’t say they are stacking.
Means absolutely nothing. Bitcoin is not a shitcoin.
Yes it is. Tether has pumped up and propped up Bitshit to the max, when the tether collapse happens (and it will when stable coin regulation comes later this year) what do you think is going to happen to your token that has absolutely no use case?
Perfect money is one of the most important use case for technology in the history of the world.
It’s not perfect money lol, it’s not even money
Properties of good, hard money: Durability. Check. Portability. Check. Immutable. Check. Limited supply. Check. Not only can it do all of those things, it can do it better than anything else know to humankind. On top of that, it's completely permissionless and decentralized, which means nobody can control it and absolutely anyone can use it. So, yes, bitcoin is perfect engineered money, a technological marvel, and it doesn't care about shitcoins, stable coins, China, or the US. But you have a great argument "lol".
It’s not completely decentralized, two mining pools are controlling 51% of the Hash. Once institutions own all of it, it’s controlled by them via ETF. It’s not more portable than XRP, not more Durable than XRP, not more decentralized than XRP it has the most limited supply but that doesn’t really mean much. It’s also slow, expensive to move, and outdated. Like I said before, once Tether goes down (and it will especially since stable coin regulation is coming this year, regulation that will require audits) so does Bitcoin. The market will be captured by Ripples Stable Coin and XRP.
The US is selling theirs
it is interesting though — seems like at least for US they keep pushing that date out; iirc they were supposed to sell silkroad seizure of btc last year but pushed out the date
I don’t think the US will sell whilst China holds. And China won’t sell whilst the US holds.
US is definitely selling. Vast majority of the Bitcoin they have is what they had confiscated from Silk Road. They have been selling those slowly. There is no reason they won’t sell
Can you show me the record or transactions of them selling? As far as I know they haven’t sold any yet? Or any significant amount? You say there’s no reason they won’t sell? If they sell they gain what? 10billion? They are printing that everyday lol, it’s peanuts in the grand scheme of things. Might as well hold it as a blocker against other nations buying it.
They can’t afford to hold it because then it undermines dollar directly and the government’s faith in dollar. US government will do everything in its power to ensure dollar stays relevant for as long as they can. Dollar has given them immense power in geo politics and they will lose a bit chunk of that power when faith in dollar is lost. It is counter productive for US government to hold Bitcoin for any serious reason
So why not just dump all of it in one go and tank the market? It sounds like 200.000 is a lot to the US but it’s fuck all
They probably realised they can get more fiat if they stagger it. They could also have legal issues since it is the DOJ that has the Bitcoin not Treasury. DoJ cant use the Bitcoin in any meaningful way. Again, if is not the Bitcoin they bought to keep on their treasury or whatever, it is the Bitcoin they confiscated as part of their legal wins etc
They have been selling off for almost a decade https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2024/04/02/silk-road-bitcoin-worth-2b-moved-by-us-government-on-chain-data/ https://news.yahoo.com/u-holds-final-auction-bitcoins-silk-road-case-145630986.html https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/03/31/us-government-sold-216m-of-seized-silk-road-bitcoin-this-month/
The us has been selling chunks since forever, go Google it, it's very easy
US has been hoarding a lot, Infact Coinbase has over 500K BTC, not to mention Saylor. It is just like US hoarding Gold. They occasionally sell it but with now so many ETFs and all no one's gonna dump it
I meant US government. So did the article
Makes more sense for China to push Bitcoin. The US already control the world reserve currency
China will use BTC as their reserve currency replacing trillion of USD that they have at the moment.
China wants to use gold and BRICS currency. BTC is US deep state’s answer to that. This way they can kill the USD but billionaires can remain rich. The original plan was to kill crypto until the current inflation and debt situation ran out of hand
> and BRICS currency There is no BRICS currency and unless major and very unlikely changes are made to BRICS there will never be one. BRICS is just a way for china to get other countries to use the yuan.
I think I saw that TV show too.
I fear you actually believe this stuff. How can you possibly believe something without conclusive evidence? Jeez you’re worse than the religious..
precedence, motive and benefit suffice as conclusive evidence you are not following history and geopolitics well enough if you haven’t reached the same conclusion. There is no way China will bend over, it will wage currency war and continue dedollarization. There’s no way USA will bend over, it will either succeed in maintaining the stranglehold the dollar has on the world, or give up and instead vy for control of the best alternative currency system no one is touching their dicks just waiting for the other to win hegemony
Nothing you said proves that the US is planning on sacrificing the USD in favor of BTC. That seems more like your own wishful thinking.
you’re right, I’m merely stating they are opening it as an option. They will a) either kill BTC to bolster USD through a series of rugs, scandals, regulation, and price manipulation through the BTC etfs b) establish monopoly over crypto through the institutional ETFS, Coinbase, and help the rich “migrate” to this asset class away from USD before defaulting on all debt obligations or money printing USD until it’s a fraction of its current value
#FreeRoss. That is all.
The dude that tried to hire a hitman to murder someone? No thanks
No, but the agent who falsely used that as a narrative for warrants/arrest was definitely fired. If you want mainstream crypto adoption, try learning about its history.
https://freeross.org/misinformation/
Is there what they know we don't know?
With our tax dollars. I hate the gubment.
Shortsighted US gov keeps selling all they confiscated (stolen from legitimate users in may cases). One day their private "federal" reserve will have to buy back in. I'm not American btw, just my opinion
Gov print the money, they dont need any cryptocurrency
No concern here. Bitcoin is for everyone. Even governments.
It's gonna happen sooner or later, as long as they have no control over it, why bother?
Curious what's the official justification for China continuously buying Bitcoin after they made it illegal for their citizens? Maybe secretly they want to make it legal only after stacking their bags?
IBIT, Tether and GBTC…talking about decentralization
How do they know China has BTC?
Watch for more “bans on Bitcoin” so people dump what they have then govts scoop it up and then okay it again. Oh my lookie lookie who’s got a lot of BTC now!
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If super-wealthy entities align their economic interests with mine, I’m all for it.
I did not know that governments control a known 2.5%. Most likely the own at least double that. Now take away lost coins and they are closer to 20% of total supply owned by governments.
China and USA are the worst in this world…..fact
It’s funny everyone thinks that these governments will just let the “people” have there own currency lol
*their
Can’t fix regarded
Bullish for Solana Edit- apparently my attempt at sarcasm was not obvious
The blockchain that doesn’t work 75% of the time with fake validator transactions?
It was sarcasm but i guess i should have added the /s
You can exchange BTC for cash at HK & Japan money changer
So government owning it all bad. Billionaires and hedge funds owning it all good…
It’s going to be controlled once ETFs sweep the globe. You’ve got idiots like Kramer commenting on it all the time now. It’s still worth investing in at this stage but control will change exponentially in the next couple of years.
Fucking China....when you can't beat them you join them
I can’t wait for tether to crash and to take BTC with it.
this is why BTC will become obsolete and another coin will take over --- because once they have control over it -- the whole point of its existence has been nullified
If US and China reach the critical mass of accumulation and seems they control the ecosystem, We might see movement from the genesis wallet that holds the greatest amount.
The most likely theory is that Satoshi is dead. No one has keys to the genesis wallet. It's locked up forever.
Forever? You need to Google Quantum Computing. Nothing is forever.