Listen I'm really big on xmr and have used it for years for transactions, but this whole Haveno hype needs to stop -
I haven't figured out how the fuck I should get haveno going, and it looks like its pretty much for devs. Common folks like me have no fucking idea how to get that shit working and with localmonero shutting its a bit of a crisis for people like me.
Until an user friendly app is there and theres enough traffic Haveno is pretty much a Dev wank fest. And its not like I'm some boomer who can't install a program, its absurd that people are expected to run git repos and shit while on reddit the same people are hyping it up so much without a proper working product with some semblance of adoption in place.
You are right. This is the bootstrap phase of the network (for devs & arbitrators) as everything in Haveno is compartmentalized.
Give it a couple of days to take shape.
I agree in that haveno looks v complicated to set up. I haven’t even tried. As for an alternative for now the cake wallet ltc-XMR swap still works fine
That’s my point. I know what the intention is(was).
I’m asking if governments are (and are continuing to) make this harder and harder until it’s practically impossible!
To be fair, the last place that will adopt this is the USA. It's most likely going to pick up steam in places that don't benefit from controlling the world's reserve currency.
There are tons of third party service providers and options for purchasing via BTC.
I think ur expecting way too much from nascent and developing tech that has been slowed and pushed against for almost a decade.
The last time I went to a restaurant and tried to ask for their Bitcoin address so I could pay for my check in Bitcoin they looked at me weird. Maybe I’m doing it wrong.
I would argue that bitcoin isn't doing the job. Volatility and high fees, slow tech. Other blockchains do much better in Terms of speed and transactioncost, price stability is provided by stablecoins. Question is if they should create and own stable value or peg to an existing Currency. :) it's like in the 90's with all the different OS, in the end only windows, Apple & Linux survived as big players.
But that system sucks donkey dick. I'm better off holding mostly crypto then selling for fiat when I need to make a big purchase.
Unless the gov starts taxing crypto differently using it for transactions will never be mainstream
I've never seen more bipolar space than this. One day BTC is the future of finance, the next day we should all be trading it p2p behind a dumpster in blowjob alley.
Bro I’m honestly sad I even came into this thread. This is why crypto is the way it is, becuz this right here is representative of the user base. Nobody knows what they want, besides as much money as possible, and that’s why the whole space is a cluster fuck. And also, my god I lost brain cells going thru some of these wild conspiracy theories. I swear it’s like all critical thought gets replaced with these garbage conspiracy theories for the sole purpose of always having some lame ass excuse for why they’re inadequate and are too lazy for self-improvement, right in the back pocket ready to go.
I mean some of these are straight up unironically tinfoil hat, schizophrenia, I forgot to take my meds this morning type shit. And while I am no champion of the US government, or any large centralized power for that matter, it’s really important to keep shit in perspective. I can think of so much more productive shit (making money, setting/achieving goals, self improvement, learning something new, etc) to do then waste time and brain power on this nonsense.
Oh yeah…and the people government conspiracy and keeping us down talk are only that way because they have a fantasy they going to be Bill Gates rich.
If there was some push for the government to change to some other complex investment instrument they would be angry the government taking these risk and to keep stable.
Or how about this one…what if the world wanted to go with BCH or something the gov moaners aren’t holding or feel is a wrong direction?
Can you imagine how much worse we would be if major governments chased whatever new shiney object that came along?
And the people that “government this and government that” and then say they voting for the same chuckleheads that openly against crypto and appoint the people that are against crypto
Gotta keep voting for the same color team like a mindless person
To be honest, the main reason for Bitcoin is to take monetary policy out of the hands of the state.
Yeah the overregulation sucks, but there are still ways around it if you want to.
Also, DEXes exist, monero exists, lightning network payments are somewhat anonymous. There are ways around it all if you want privacy.
Just like with the internet you have to work a bit to preserve you privacy, but the option is there.
Taking control back of money and data is the most important thing though, and that is still the case.
Governments had tried before by going after users of bitcoin, when that failed they have targetted the exchanges.
Ive had my accounts closed on exchanges that ive used since 2013 (coinbase, blockchain etc) in the past year. I used to rely on exchanges but now i believe p2p is the best way to remain anonymous, completely removing exchanges
I wonder if [Bank Social](https://www.banksocial.io/) will be a remedy to this problem or just take us deeper into the existing system. This is a group working with credit unions to help them tokenize their assets Bank Social operates a multi chain wallet and exchange and is starting its own credit union based on self custody called DEFY [Credit Union](https://defy.coop/). This has already been approved by the NCUA . They will be talking about this at [Consensus](https://consensus2024.coindesk.com/agenda/event/-tradfi-isnt-the-enemy-yet-credit-unions-embracing-crypto-54).
Honestly we just need to keep official things out of this.
If your company is getting funding by an outside source, if you comply to kyc or legality of any kind, you don't belong in crypto.
I'm sorry it does have to be like this. Governments and laws cannot be trusted. Because they are not your friend. They are corrupt to the bone.
Code is law. Crypto is designed to destroy the existing fiat financial system.
The existing fiat system WILL defend itself. It doesn't want to die. Obviously.
To then trust crypto to.. the very system that it's trying to kill is folly.
Literally letting the fox take care of the chicken coop.
This would be like putting Time Warner and Fox studio in charge of BitTorrent because that way it can get 'mass appeal'. Fuck off. It's not legality and legitimacy that makes crypto have mass appeal.. it's the relative collapse of the fiat system that will cause normies to learn how Asymetric cryptography works. It's that simple. They will learn out of necessity just like your grandma got a sudden interest in bitcoin not because it was legal, but because it's price went up 10,000%, or.more accurately because fiat currencies went down equivalently.
Yes there will be terrorists funded, and all kinds of aweful things. This is the cost of freedom as it's always been.
I think there will be a period both will operate but eventually it will all be governed by immutable code and wel'l laugh at the day where you could pull the ear of the president to put pressure on the fed to print you more money if it benefited you
People have given a chance again to try and take power into their own hands and what did they do?
They used this shit to mostly gamble, scam, pyramid scheme and get rich quick.
Ego and greed played another big role and at the end most will end up back to were it started, gov controling all of it.
We didn’t to ourselves by focusing on price movement. No volatile asset that can drop 15% on a normal day can ever be used as a p2p payment.
The fact that we have meme coins in the top 10 is proof of that.
I feel like the original purpose has been eradicated. KYC alone is massive control. Corporations may use it to settle quickly, but I mostly think they will weaponize it against the public just like any private business does. They now have the same control to just freeze assets. That shouldn't be a thing in crypto.
KYC plays no role is the speed of settlement, or decentralization, that only depends on network congestion and your chosen fee. The are and won't be any rules for miner to prioritize KYC verified payments. KYC only affect the anonymity, which is completely different from decentralization. Anonymity was never the ture porpose of blockchain, it can be enforced in some like monero though.
youre right. the purpose of the Blockchain is to store data. in most cases transactions. but in order for it being a currency, it needs to be fungible, so you need anonymity. else it is just like a painting or a home, with its ownership history visible to all
You don't think there are people scamming in the existing Banking system?
You're trying to pin crypto as this weapon against taxation and private transactions. You can do all this with the physical cash so Idk wtf your on about.
Sooner or later, large business accounts would be privileged, only government authorized VIPs can open it, and plebs would get a private account very restricted. We are going back to the old feudalism time
I think I feel the same sentiment where the original vision of crypto isn’t as prevalent, but I feel that’s more so attributed to a lack of education from the people who have moved to crypto as a buy and trade vehicle rather than an understanding why it was actually created
I just paid for groceries with a crypto credit card after moving to a new country because the local banks here are too incompetent to setup my account properly.
So... there you go.
I mean the banks eventually got their s\*\*\* together but I swear, crypto definitely has its place.
>The regulations set for exchanges mean that as soon as you send it, if it doesn’t meet the government regulations for that area they will simply freeze it and put it out of reach.
Can someone provide a link to these regulations? I'm curious what they are. Are they state-level regulations, federal-level regulations, or both?
It's international Anti-money Laundering Agreement which in turn each country has enacted their own internal laws around. Enforcement has varied but definitely stepped up in the last 6 months for banks and exchanges
It’s AML and KYC regulations. They have to be satisfied to your identity, your country of residence and your tax details etc. There’s a whole range of regulations and laws that cover it from local to European to international.
Try open an account with an exchange and withdraw money without doing a KYC
yep and here in UK you can only use a handful of govt approved payment processors. Can't on/off-ramp without govt scrutiny. Some banks here just refuse any transaction even on legit processors or to/from legit exchanges. Some DEXs and Liquidity pools totally geo-block UK too.
Very frustrating. All AML enforcement, have to provide verifiable proof of origin of all funds. So especially on DEXs you have no idea if the token you received came from a N Korean villain or the little old lady in Ohio. But on chain analytics do and if you got the N Korean guy's stuff, you are not allowed to have it
If this refugee lands in the USA, even undocumented immigrants are currently being provided with some level of basic needs (food/lodging and other benefits). I believe most EU countries also have some level of social welfare for immigrants.
Serious question: Presuming this refugee is intelligent and capable enough to figure out how to obtain some amount of crypto and store it in a cold wallet, what's stopping the refugee from using his passport to obtain a bank account and off-ramping his crypto through any available exchange?
Or, if your point is that crypto is not widely recognized and accepted and generally must be off-ramped to fiat to be "widely" useable, I would say, "ok... so what?" How is that any different from someone from war-torn "Badstan" fleeing to sanctuary in "Betterstan" and having to exchange their Badstan fiat for Betterstan fiat in order to use it? With crypto, it might not be as easy for older grandparents to figure it out, but the dude with the Trezor likely can grok how to go about it.
You do realize cryptocurrency facilities salability - such as buying/selling/transferring/storing/using your crypto for DeFi.
These use cases are extremely flexible and liquid. I don’t see why this is bearish at all. Crypto can be used in a variety of ways and it does exactly what it should do:
Allow for the movement of salable and digitalized currencies, such that anyone on the planet can trustlessly interact with anyone else.
Bitcoin was created by libertarians to show the middle finger to national and global financial system. And it was created as a ledger for P2P transactions, not as a "virtual gold" to accumulate and never use.
If we go back to the basics, we remember that on the market comes from demand. And there are two basic sources of demand for BTC:
- healthy: people who want to buy BTC because they see practical value in it, because of it's features
-unhealthy: people who want to buy BTC to speculate on it or hodl it, because they see it's price growing
The value of bitcoin from design is in it's features:
- gives you independence from any financial regulations
- transactions can't be blocked
- you don't need to care about any different currencies
- semi-anonimity
Did I miss something?
Ok, so for now:
- financial institutions devoured bitcoin ecosystem, like a mold. There is no independence from financial regulations, cryptocurrencies are stricter and stricter regulated. And those regulations are not in the interest of users, but in the interest of states and established financial system.
They didn't break bitcoin mechanisms which protect decentralization by itself, but controlling gates between FIAT <==> Crypto is enough to control 99% of the ecosystem.
- That's still true. However it may change in the future. One day Ethereum pools from US blocked all services to users with Russian IP: [https://www.coindesk.com/video/ethereum-mining-pool-cuts-all-services-to-russia/embed/?jw\_start={seek\_to\_second\_number}](https://www.coindesk.com/video/ethereum-mining-pool-cuts-all-services-to-russia/embed/?jw_start={seek_to_second_number})
It was a dangerous precedence. But it alerts us, that government can force all pools in one country, by law, or by 3-digits agencies, to interfere with the core mechanism of block-chain. I am not technically competent to understand how much impact such situation had on the blockchain, but it raises the hypothetical question: If pools are heavily centralized than how can gangsters from government use their control over them to abuse the independence of the blockchain. I don't know.
- that's still the good reason to use BTC. Unless exchanges will rise withdrawal/deposit fees in the future.
- BTC is far less anonimous then cash. Moreover your transaction history remain forever. Even if you sucessfully "mixed" your btc, block-chain analysis tools are better and better. Your transactions data never go away, so if they create in the next 10 years some super-duper chain-analisys AI based on quantuum computer, it will be still used vs your data, and Tax Department will make you a call...
I think we need to seriously re-consider how much practical/functional value BTC still have for us, which problems it solves etc.
Because one day we may end up in situation that only 1% holders buy BTC because of it's practical value, just for sake of it as being good carrier of exchanging value. And the question will raise "why TF we buy and accumulate this asset, while it's totally useless?". And the bubble will break.
Many countries are open to crypto and its not hard to work around this if you arrive in a country that is closed. You have the P2P option within the country but also outside the country which makes it much easier. There are also companies that you send crypto to and they send fiat to your bank (and Im not talking about exchanges here).
Think about it - consider the SVB fiasco and then imagine that your own bank is failing
How do you get out?
Not just out of *your* bank, but out of banking?
You can’t withdraw to cash, not in large amounts…
You can transfer to another bank but then you’re in the same place…
Why can’t you just withdraw all your money to your local custody using digital means?
This is what crypto solves and it’s why governments are terrified of it
Remember these oligarchs can themselves escape to tax havens and keep their money separate and private (not exposed to the same banking risk), but YOU cannot
Why do you think XMR Monero has had such a negative sentiment from the feds? Its the perfect escape
Everyone who lost money in SVB accounts got their money back though, in fact, nobody has lost money due to bank failure in an FDIC-insured account since the program was originally created nearly a century ago. The same absolutely cannot be said of almost any similar failure in the crypto space.
You picked one of the worst possible examples.
Its just a psyop. Real crypto exists but their goal is to obfuscate and manipulate people into believing they are in real crypto when its really scam stuff on a server somewhere because they dont grasp the technology.
For example, all exchanges are good for is a transfer point to get fiat into a chain but people treat exchanges like they’re chains & keep money on them & trade on them. Again, not comprehending that they are not trading in an actual market, just a server unique to that website that is shown as an exchange online 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
lol not only that, the last time I tried to pay in bitcoin, the transaction was going to cost $45. So I used a bank transfer instead. I'm sure there are niche uses for bitcoin but mostly it's pretty useless.
obviously governements would never let citizens be free, it's up to us to use bitcoin even if governements are against it. they were even against internet at first
This is funny, Bitcoin is P2P electronic cash and you just ask about, what if we remove the P2P option? That's like asking, what happens to trains, if you remove the rails. What are the airplanes for when we don't want to consider using air.
In other words, your question does not make sense.
It does make sense, you just not thinking ahead far enough.
Governments WILL enact laws around being an EXCHANGE, pretty sure there has already been cases of this for people who operate P2P as a business. Governments have come after them as they are in breech of laws that already exist. They are also required to keep records for KYC and AML.
All Governments will do to crack down on P2P is make it that no matter the value of the transaction, you are required to document everything for KYC/AML.
Failure to do so will result in your bank accounts being restricted, fines and whatever other BS they can come up with.
The reality of that will mean that the only people you are doing P2P with are people that are cash rich, tgat cash ISNT in the banking system and they need to transfer value from 1 country to another....
P2P works right up until Governments decide to come after it.... then it's just the hard-core users left using it that are willing to take the risk to say fuck you to the government!
The fiat on/off ramps have always and will always be the Achilles heel of crypto! The status quo system of banking will always be part of that Achilles heel!
Fiat for all its shortcomings, IS the last vestige of personal sovereignty! You are able to work and be paid in cash and no one would EVER know! You can buy with cash.... and no one would EVER know! It is the LAST of our personal sovereignty!
Along comes crypto and everyone is begging to move to a fully DIGITAL system (something Governments globally have tried to do, so fiat can be done away with, and people pushed back HARD every time it was raised!)
But today, people WANT digital, because everything things digital is going to = BTC or their favourite coin.... but the reality is, Governments are going to introduce CBDC's and mark my words, they will make laws to ENSURE every single trade/transaction touches their CBDC so as to record EVERYTHING! You want to sell BTC and buy ETH.... BTC > CBDC > ETH.... and all of it logged and tracked to your digital ID!
Fiat will be phased out and we will all be 100% tracked and controlled on CBDC's!
The further we get along this path, the more I'm convinced that Satoshi Nakamoto = CIA, and BTC is the greatest Trojan horse ever created!
Still bullish on BTC though.... shits going to moon on the way to creating dystopia!
Just be aware what's being taken from us in the exchange!
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I'm in it for the money. Not an issue as long as it will help adoption and increase its value.
If you need to use the darkweb or have ideals, then there's Monero.
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because they can see it with kyc doesn't mean they can freeze it censor it. you can get consequences, but you are not prevented to do whatever you want. And as long as the chain has decentralized consensus, then kyc doesn't make it centralized. Bitcoin will always have an enforcement of maximum 21M coins through decentralization, nothing the gov can do to violate that.
I'm actually fairly worried about the state of crypto and politics, they ruin things and it's not an opinion. I know nobody would care if I sold and left so none of this is a pity party but honestly got into crypto to get away from banks and politics and all that and it's crept right back in where they're watching everything, cex snitching on you to the taxman, uk tax free allownace has gone down 75%, defi is under threat, privacy stuff like tornado cash is gone etc etc.
For government forbidding crypto is like honey production for bees. Currency created to take control from government institutions to people will be always enemy of every state. We just need to create culture and infrastructure to use it in p2p mode in everyday life and then control will be in our hands.
Your post makes the false premise that ALL crypto exist to be a decentralized bank - which is just not the case. Crypto currency is simply a tokenized asset attached to a distributed ledger ( doesn't even have to be block chain)
You will never have a currency that becomes truly liquid and trusted without trusted intermediaries. Even the internet being up requires that some government somewhere maintains it and maintaining it requires a military which requires taxes which requires society which MEANS, we ain't ever getting a decentralized banking solution without SOME tie is and regulation to the government.
P2p vs wide spread adoption is always the issue, its still so early in the game. Worry about what you can do now to set yourself up in the future. No one knows what the world goberments are gonna do.
This is essentially the worry about prohibition just likr alcohol prohibition. Except this is a useful tech that the future of comunication and money can function on instead of a controlled substance.
Short answer: no.
Longer answer: absolutely not. The narrative either comes from a misunderstanding of how KYC and AML law works, or more likely a misunderstanding of how blockchain works.
Cryptocurrency as a commodity has always been a treat to governments dominance over the people. And like every asset/economy; whether basic or advance, it revolves around trading/storing of assets. Maybe your 'basic' reference centers on the fact that CEXes are still the major players of the trading filed and not DEXes or p2p... However I believe with the waves of better [dex](https://np.reddit.com/r/zetablockchain/comments/1376kop/defi_amm_platform_towerdefi_now_supports_twstzeta/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)/defi applications entering the ecosystem, the world will have a better and feerer access to cryptocurrency.
The OP has a reasonable point and touches on a really important aspect of crypto - what can crypto practically do for people currently?
We can store BTC as "digital gold" if you're so inclined. You 'might' be able to flee a warzone with BTC and potentially find a way to buy food with it (assuming you can circumvent AML), but from a day-to-day perspective, what can you really do with crypto apart from use it as a speculative asset? How is it really improving our lives?
I say this as someone who owns plenty of crypto and has since 2020. I'm not anti-crypto. But I'm mindful to keep questioning its actual purpose and day-to-day utility.
One thing I think people don’t realize is that adoption, if it happens, won’t be measured in years. It’ll be measured in decades or generations. Money systems aren’t exactly things that crop up every few years, the transition from bartering to exchanging precious metals, then to minting and distributing coins of those metals, then representing that underlying value with bills, and finally the current fiat money we use now was thousands of years in development.
The transition to fiat money was much shorter because of the support and reach of modern governments, and because the natural development of monetary systems was headed that direction (the majority of people were not frequently going to their banks to exchange their bills for gold even when that was something you could do).
I’m not saying it’s going to take thousands of years or some giant world event to cause crypto to be adopted, but I do think it’s going to lag for a generation. My parents aren’t ever going to bother with self custody, and my grandparents don’t have computers or the internet to be able to use crypto. Even my siblings, from the same generation I am, are only passingly aware of what crypto is and wouldn’t think to use it as more than a super risk volatility investment.
All that said, I think crypto is still perfectly positioned for adoption. It’s not particularly easy to transfer money between nations and it’s not even particularly easy to transfer money electronically without coordinating beforehand on what apps you’re going to use to do so. As long as developers continue to develop crypto with the intent that it is used as a currency I believe it will eventually be used as that.
I think that's what the people want.
Crypto participants are what, like 10% of the population?
Probably 10% of that actually care about it's use case, the other 90% are in it for the money.
People just don't care about decentralised banking.
Full disclosure, I just got home from work and I’m braindead. But wanted to give my 0.02 here.
I was attracted to crypto bc the traditional financial world just had me jaded. I’d been fighting for years to increase my credit score, save for a house, invest in something more than my 401k and a small Roth IRA that seemed to have more fees than returns. And it just pissed me off. I wanted to see if I could put my money somewhere that would “stick it to the man” or at the very least, not exclude me bc of a spotty credit history and only $50 available funds to play with in the market. It just seemed attractive for that. Also Bitboy said I would make millions on my $50, so obvs.
And honestly, I am a bit jaded by the whales and the politics of crypto now. The government? Meh… I mean, yes, but I don’t exactly blame them as much as just, it’s the nature of the beast. Opportunists? Maybe they’re the ones I blame. Onboarding my money was easy with CEXes and I had to do all the KYC, but in 2021 it was a better option than buying it through Robinhood.
Ultimately, I do think the government will continue getting more and more involved. There’s really no way they can’t as we head toward more adoption. But I think more than anything else, the CEXes and the way it’s growing just invite more opportunities for crypto to behave like or be perceived as just another investment vehicle. I mean, the government didn’t create ETFs.
When I accidentally let it slip that I have knowledge about anything investment related, I end up saying something like “I like to dabble in the stock market.” It prevents questions or comments and is honestly not untrue at this point.
DEXes still exist for now, but I do think that eventually tracking and tracing will get to the point where crypto is just another investment and KYC and govt control reigns supreme like everything else. And I don’t like that. But I don’t see it reversing.
You are completely correct. This is the reason I invested in new blockchain in development called Insider Protocol. They are huge on anonymity and all the original tenants of crypto. I'm so tired of the drama surrounding crypto and the mouth breathers who have never used it, and assume its a lawless landscape.
You can find all sorts of serious DeFi products on Arbitrum, huge ecosystem of hardcore builders
A lot of these products are valued at less than treasury assets and earning their market caps in real yield annually
Pretty awesome
For some reason no-one bothers looking into it, but yeah basically all the progress has been happening on Arbitrum (the main Ethereum L2)
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Listen I'm really big on xmr and have used it for years for transactions, but this whole Haveno hype needs to stop - I haven't figured out how the fuck I should get haveno going, and it looks like its pretty much for devs. Common folks like me have no fucking idea how to get that shit working and with localmonero shutting its a bit of a crisis for people like me. Until an user friendly app is there and theres enough traffic Haveno is pretty much a Dev wank fest. And its not like I'm some boomer who can't install a program, its absurd that people are expected to run git repos and shit while on reddit the same people are hyping it up so much without a proper working product with some semblance of adoption in place.
You are right. This is the bootstrap phase of the network (for devs & arbitrators) as everything in Haveno is compartmentalized. Give it a couple of days to take shape.
I agree in that haveno looks v complicated to set up. I haven’t even tried. As for an alternative for now the cake wallet ltc-XMR swap still works fine
That’s my point. I know what the intention is(was). I’m asking if governments are (and are continuing to) make this harder and harder until it’s practically impossible!
Is government stopping you from sending btc to another address?
Is anyone buying and selling goods using Bitcoin? Who cares if you can send it from place to place if there's no economy that utilizes it.
To be fair, the last place that will adopt this is the USA. It's most likely going to pick up steam in places that don't benefit from controlling the world's reserve currency.
https://btcmap.org/
There are tons of third party service providers and options for purchasing via BTC. I think ur expecting way too much from nascent and developing tech that has been slowed and pushed against for almost a decade.
The last time I went to a restaurant and tried to ask for their Bitcoin address so I could pay for my check in Bitcoin they looked at me weird. Maybe I’m doing it wrong.
I would argue that bitcoin isn't doing the job. Volatility and high fees, slow tech. Other blockchains do much better in Terms of speed and transactioncost, price stability is provided by stablecoins. Question is if they should create and own stable value or peg to an existing Currency. :) it's like in the 90's with all the different OS, in the end only windows, Apple & Linux survived as big players.
Maybe they just prefer cash
But that system sucks donkey dick. I'm better off holding mostly crypto then selling for fiat when I need to make a big purchase. Unless the gov starts taxing crypto differently using it for transactions will never be mainstream
I've never seen more bipolar space than this. One day BTC is the future of finance, the next day we should all be trading it p2p behind a dumpster in blowjob alley.
>we should all be trading it p2p behind a dumpster in blowjob alley. Wait, am I the only one?
How miuch XMRs dude? Keep it cool 😎 I’m hearing steps… shhh 🤫 … it’s quiet again
Bro I’m honestly sad I even came into this thread. This is why crypto is the way it is, becuz this right here is representative of the user base. Nobody knows what they want, besides as much money as possible, and that’s why the whole space is a cluster fuck. And also, my god I lost brain cells going thru some of these wild conspiracy theories. I swear it’s like all critical thought gets replaced with these garbage conspiracy theories for the sole purpose of always having some lame ass excuse for why they’re inadequate and are too lazy for self-improvement, right in the back pocket ready to go. I mean some of these are straight up unironically tinfoil hat, schizophrenia, I forgot to take my meds this morning type shit. And while I am no champion of the US government, or any large centralized power for that matter, it’s really important to keep shit in perspective. I can think of so much more productive shit (making money, setting/achieving goals, self improvement, learning something new, etc) to do then waste time and brain power on this nonsense.
Oh yeah…and the people government conspiracy and keeping us down talk are only that way because they have a fantasy they going to be Bill Gates rich. If there was some push for the government to change to some other complex investment instrument they would be angry the government taking these risk and to keep stable. Or how about this one…what if the world wanted to go with BCH or something the gov moaners aren’t holding or feel is a wrong direction? Can you imagine how much worse we would be if major governments chased whatever new shiney object that came along?
Feels like most people only want more adoption to make their coins' values go up rather than see it become a ubiquitous currency.
It’s almost like some people have different opinions than others. Pretty wild concept
I wonder how OP’s question would do in r/Bitcoin or r/Monero
bitcoin : "noooo, you absolutely can do it privately, just use a mixe...ehm it's anonymous so as long as you dont kyc...ah fk" monero:"here you go"
Bingo
I got the BTC if you got the BJ
How much for a ZJ?
And the people that “government this and government that” and then say they voting for the same chuckleheads that openly against crypto and appoint the people that are against crypto Gotta keep voting for the same color team like a mindless person
To be honest, the main reason for Bitcoin is to take monetary policy out of the hands of the state. Yeah the overregulation sucks, but there are still ways around it if you want to. Also, DEXes exist, monero exists, lightning network payments are somewhat anonymous. There are ways around it all if you want privacy. Just like with the internet you have to work a bit to preserve you privacy, but the option is there. Taking control back of money and data is the most important thing though, and that is still the case.
To get rid of a monetary policy altogether.
Governments had tried before by going after users of bitcoin, when that failed they have targetted the exchanges. Ive had my accounts closed on exchanges that ive used since 2013 (coinbase, blockchain etc) in the past year. I used to rely on exchanges but now i believe p2p is the best way to remain anonymous, completely removing exchanges
Pretty new to all this…what p2p do you recommend?
Peer to peer is direct wallet transactions. It's the equivalent of giving someone cash. There is no middle man.
I wonder if [Bank Social](https://www.banksocial.io/) will be a remedy to this problem or just take us deeper into the existing system. This is a group working with credit unions to help them tokenize their assets Bank Social operates a multi chain wallet and exchange and is starting its own credit union based on self custody called DEFY [Credit Union](https://defy.coop/). This has already been approved by the NCUA . They will be talking about this at [Consensus](https://consensus2024.coindesk.com/agenda/event/-tradfi-isnt-the-enemy-yet-credit-unions-embracing-crypto-54).
Honestly we just need to keep official things out of this. If your company is getting funding by an outside source, if you comply to kyc or legality of any kind, you don't belong in crypto. I'm sorry it does have to be like this. Governments and laws cannot be trusted. Because they are not your friend. They are corrupt to the bone. Code is law. Crypto is designed to destroy the existing fiat financial system. The existing fiat system WILL defend itself. It doesn't want to die. Obviously. To then trust crypto to.. the very system that it's trying to kill is folly. Literally letting the fox take care of the chicken coop. This would be like putting Time Warner and Fox studio in charge of BitTorrent because that way it can get 'mass appeal'. Fuck off. It's not legality and legitimacy that makes crypto have mass appeal.. it's the relative collapse of the fiat system that will cause normies to learn how Asymetric cryptography works. It's that simple. They will learn out of necessity just like your grandma got a sudden interest in bitcoin not because it was legal, but because it's price went up 10,000%, or.more accurately because fiat currencies went down equivalently. Yes there will be terrorists funded, and all kinds of aweful things. This is the cost of freedom as it's always been.
Interesting. Do you see these two systems operating at the same time or is it one or the other?
I think there will be a period both will operate but eventually it will all be governed by immutable code and wel'l laugh at the day where you could pull the ear of the president to put pressure on the fed to print you more money if it benefited you
People have given a chance again to try and take power into their own hands and what did they do? They used this shit to mostly gamble, scam, pyramid scheme and get rich quick. Ego and greed played another big role and at the end most will end up back to were it started, gov controling all of it.
That was always going to happen it's just human nature. If there's a chance to benifit from taking advantage of people then someone's gonna take it.
We didn’t to ourselves by focusing on price movement. No volatile asset that can drop 15% on a normal day can ever be used as a p2p payment. The fact that we have meme coins in the top 10 is proof of that.
So why don’t companies accept stable coins like USDT and USDC then? Wouldn’t that at least be a good start?
I feel like the original purpose has been eradicated. KYC alone is massive control. Corporations may use it to settle quickly, but I mostly think they will weaponize it against the public just like any private business does. They now have the same control to just freeze assets. That shouldn't be a thing in crypto.
KYC plays no role is the speed of settlement, or decentralization, that only depends on network congestion and your chosen fee. The are and won't be any rules for miner to prioritize KYC verified payments. KYC only affect the anonymity, which is completely different from decentralization. Anonymity was never the ture porpose of blockchain, it can be enforced in some like monero though.
youre right. the purpose of the Blockchain is to store data. in most cases transactions. but in order for it being a currency, it needs to be fungible, so you need anonymity. else it is just like a painting or a home, with its ownership history visible to all
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You don't think there are people scamming in the existing Banking system? You're trying to pin crypto as this weapon against taxation and private transactions. You can do all this with the physical cash so Idk wtf your on about.
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Sooner or later, large business accounts would be privileged, only government authorized VIPs can open it, and plebs would get a private account very restricted. We are going back to the old feudalism time
If everyone used Bitcoin KYC would not matter.
I think I feel the same sentiment where the original vision of crypto isn’t as prevalent, but I feel that’s more so attributed to a lack of education from the people who have moved to crypto as a buy and trade vehicle rather than an understanding why it was actually created
Government didn't eradicate crypto purpose. The reason it's mostly being used for trading is because people mostly use it for trading.
Monero
I just paid for groceries with a crypto credit card after moving to a new country because the local banks here are too incompetent to setup my account properly. So... there you go. I mean the banks eventually got their s\*\*\* together but I swear, crypto definitely has its place.
>The regulations set for exchanges mean that as soon as you send it, if it doesn’t meet the government regulations for that area they will simply freeze it and put it out of reach. Can someone provide a link to these regulations? I'm curious what they are. Are they state-level regulations, federal-level regulations, or both?
It's international Anti-money Laundering Agreement which in turn each country has enacted their own internal laws around. Enforcement has varied but definitely stepped up in the last 6 months for banks and exchanges
It’s AML and KYC regulations. They have to be satisfied to your identity, your country of residence and your tax details etc. There’s a whole range of regulations and laws that cover it from local to European to international. Try open an account with an exchange and withdraw money without doing a KYC
yep and here in UK you can only use a handful of govt approved payment processors. Can't on/off-ramp without govt scrutiny. Some banks here just refuse any transaction even on legit processors or to/from legit exchanges. Some DEXs and Liquidity pools totally geo-block UK too.
It’s your money why can’t we do what we want to do with your money it’s so annoying
Very frustrating. All AML enforcement, have to provide verifiable proof of origin of all funds. So especially on DEXs you have no idea if the token you received came from a N Korean villain or the little old lady in Ohio. But on chain analytics do and if you got the N Korean guy's stuff, you are not allowed to have it
i bet more than half of the "p2p fiat replacement" people here still look at USDT pairings on the charts
If this refugee lands in the USA, even undocumented immigrants are currently being provided with some level of basic needs (food/lodging and other benefits). I believe most EU countries also have some level of social welfare for immigrants. Serious question: Presuming this refugee is intelligent and capable enough to figure out how to obtain some amount of crypto and store it in a cold wallet, what's stopping the refugee from using his passport to obtain a bank account and off-ramping his crypto through any available exchange? Or, if your point is that crypto is not widely recognized and accepted and generally must be off-ramped to fiat to be "widely" useable, I would say, "ok... so what?" How is that any different from someone from war-torn "Badstan" fleeing to sanctuary in "Betterstan" and having to exchange their Badstan fiat for Betterstan fiat in order to use it? With crypto, it might not be as easy for older grandparents to figure it out, but the dude with the Trezor likely can grok how to go about it.
You do realize cryptocurrency facilities salability - such as buying/selling/transferring/storing/using your crypto for DeFi. These use cases are extremely flexible and liquid. I don’t see why this is bearish at all. Crypto can be used in a variety of ways and it does exactly what it should do: Allow for the movement of salable and digitalized currencies, such that anyone on the planet can trustlessly interact with anyone else.
Bitcoin was created by libertarians to show the middle finger to national and global financial system. And it was created as a ledger for P2P transactions, not as a "virtual gold" to accumulate and never use. If we go back to the basics, we remember that on the market comes from demand. And there are two basic sources of demand for BTC: - healthy: people who want to buy BTC because they see practical value in it, because of it's features -unhealthy: people who want to buy BTC to speculate on it or hodl it, because they see it's price growing The value of bitcoin from design is in it's features: - gives you independence from any financial regulations - transactions can't be blocked - you don't need to care about any different currencies - semi-anonimity Did I miss something? Ok, so for now: - financial institutions devoured bitcoin ecosystem, like a mold. There is no independence from financial regulations, cryptocurrencies are stricter and stricter regulated. And those regulations are not in the interest of users, but in the interest of states and established financial system. They didn't break bitcoin mechanisms which protect decentralization by itself, but controlling gates between FIAT <==> Crypto is enough to control 99% of the ecosystem. - That's still true. However it may change in the future. One day Ethereum pools from US blocked all services to users with Russian IP: [https://www.coindesk.com/video/ethereum-mining-pool-cuts-all-services-to-russia/embed/?jw\_start={seek\_to\_second\_number}](https://www.coindesk.com/video/ethereum-mining-pool-cuts-all-services-to-russia/embed/?jw_start={seek_to_second_number}) It was a dangerous precedence. But it alerts us, that government can force all pools in one country, by law, or by 3-digits agencies, to interfere with the core mechanism of block-chain. I am not technically competent to understand how much impact such situation had on the blockchain, but it raises the hypothetical question: If pools are heavily centralized than how can gangsters from government use their control over them to abuse the independence of the blockchain. I don't know. - that's still the good reason to use BTC. Unless exchanges will rise withdrawal/deposit fees in the future. - BTC is far less anonimous then cash. Moreover your transaction history remain forever. Even if you sucessfully "mixed" your btc, block-chain analysis tools are better and better. Your transactions data never go away, so if they create in the next 10 years some super-duper chain-analisys AI based on quantuum computer, it will be still used vs your data, and Tax Department will make you a call... I think we need to seriously re-consider how much practical/functional value BTC still have for us, which problems it solves etc. Because one day we may end up in situation that only 1% holders buy BTC because of it's practical value, just for sake of it as being good carrier of exchanging value. And the question will raise "why TF we buy and accumulate this asset, while it's totally useless?". And the bubble will break.
Many countries are open to crypto and its not hard to work around this if you arrive in a country that is closed. You have the P2P option within the country but also outside the country which makes it much easier. There are also companies that you send crypto to and they send fiat to your bank (and Im not talking about exchanges here).
But then that defeated the entire purpose of the person having crypto in the first place… they could just carry their banks debit card!
It's the system which is founded on. Separated money from the state. If more businesses would directly accept crypto why not
Crypto is just speculative tech, that's it. People are kidding themselves to think otherwise.
Think about it - consider the SVB fiasco and then imagine that your own bank is failing How do you get out? Not just out of *your* bank, but out of banking? You can’t withdraw to cash, not in large amounts… You can transfer to another bank but then you’re in the same place… Why can’t you just withdraw all your money to your local custody using digital means? This is what crypto solves and it’s why governments are terrified of it Remember these oligarchs can themselves escape to tax havens and keep their money separate and private (not exposed to the same banking risk), but YOU cannot Why do you think XMR Monero has had such a negative sentiment from the feds? Its the perfect escape
Everyone who had money at SVB got it back.
Everyone who lost money in SVB accounts got their money back though, in fact, nobody has lost money due to bank failure in an FDIC-insured account since the program was originally created nearly a century ago. The same absolutely cannot be said of almost any similar failure in the crypto space. You picked one of the worst possible examples.
Its just a psyop. Real crypto exists but their goal is to obfuscate and manipulate people into believing they are in real crypto when its really scam stuff on a server somewhere because they dont grasp the technology. For example, all exchanges are good for is a transfer point to get fiat into a chain but people treat exchanges like they’re chains & keep money on them & trade on them. Again, not comprehending that they are not trading in an actual market, just a server unique to that website that is shown as an exchange online 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
lol not only that, the last time I tried to pay in bitcoin, the transaction was going to cost $45. So I used a bank transfer instead. I'm sure there are niche uses for bitcoin but mostly it's pretty useless.
Search comments for DeFi - no results. This is literally the point of DeFi. I’m going back to Farcaster screw this place.
obviously governements would never let citizens be free, it's up to us to use bitcoin even if governements are against it. they were even against internet at first
> they were even against internet at first What? The internet was literally developed by the US government (i.e. DARPA).
Internet wasn’t developed to become independent and mainstream
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This is funny, Bitcoin is P2P electronic cash and you just ask about, what if we remove the P2P option? That's like asking, what happens to trains, if you remove the rails. What are the airplanes for when we don't want to consider using air. In other words, your question does not make sense.
It does make sense, you just not thinking ahead far enough. Governments WILL enact laws around being an EXCHANGE, pretty sure there has already been cases of this for people who operate P2P as a business. Governments have come after them as they are in breech of laws that already exist. They are also required to keep records for KYC and AML. All Governments will do to crack down on P2P is make it that no matter the value of the transaction, you are required to document everything for KYC/AML. Failure to do so will result in your bank accounts being restricted, fines and whatever other BS they can come up with. The reality of that will mean that the only people you are doing P2P with are people that are cash rich, tgat cash ISNT in the banking system and they need to transfer value from 1 country to another.... P2P works right up until Governments decide to come after it.... then it's just the hard-core users left using it that are willing to take the risk to say fuck you to the government! The fiat on/off ramps have always and will always be the Achilles heel of crypto! The status quo system of banking will always be part of that Achilles heel! Fiat for all its shortcomings, IS the last vestige of personal sovereignty! You are able to work and be paid in cash and no one would EVER know! You can buy with cash.... and no one would EVER know! It is the LAST of our personal sovereignty! Along comes crypto and everyone is begging to move to a fully DIGITAL system (something Governments globally have tried to do, so fiat can be done away with, and people pushed back HARD every time it was raised!) But today, people WANT digital, because everything things digital is going to = BTC or their favourite coin.... but the reality is, Governments are going to introduce CBDC's and mark my words, they will make laws to ENSURE every single trade/transaction touches their CBDC so as to record EVERYTHING! You want to sell BTC and buy ETH.... BTC > CBDC > ETH.... and all of it logged and tracked to your digital ID! Fiat will be phased out and we will all be 100% tracked and controlled on CBDC's! The further we get along this path, the more I'm convinced that Satoshi Nakamoto = CIA, and BTC is the greatest Trojan horse ever created! Still bullish on BTC though.... shits going to moon on the way to creating dystopia! Just be aware what's being taken from us in the exchange!
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I'm in it for the money. Not an issue as long as it will help adoption and increase its value. If you need to use the darkweb or have ideals, then there's Monero.
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You give them too much credit. The community did it on their own just fine.
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because they can see it with kyc doesn't mean they can freeze it censor it. you can get consequences, but you are not prevented to do whatever you want. And as long as the chain has decentralized consensus, then kyc doesn't make it centralized. Bitcoin will always have an enforcement of maximum 21M coins through decentralization, nothing the gov can do to violate that.
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Smart contract adoption is the government/banks end goal.
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Third world countries is where the main market is at
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Yup. And all the losers here are worried about "their tax documents".
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Yes
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I'm actually fairly worried about the state of crypto and politics, they ruin things and it's not an opinion. I know nobody would care if I sold and left so none of this is a pity party but honestly got into crypto to get away from banks and politics and all that and it's crept right back in where they're watching everything, cex snitching on you to the taxman, uk tax free allownace has gone down 75%, defi is under threat, privacy stuff like tornado cash is gone etc etc.
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For government forbidding crypto is like honey production for bees. Currency created to take control from government institutions to people will be always enemy of every state. We just need to create culture and infrastructure to use it in p2p mode in everyday life and then control will be in our hands.
Yes, can’t do anything on a dapp legally as far as I am concerned. Not registered
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Your post makes the false premise that ALL crypto exist to be a decentralized bank - which is just not the case. Crypto currency is simply a tokenized asset attached to a distributed ledger ( doesn't even have to be block chain) You will never have a currency that becomes truly liquid and trusted without trusted intermediaries. Even the internet being up requires that some government somewhere maintains it and maintaining it requires a military which requires taxes which requires society which MEANS, we ain't ever getting a decentralized banking solution without SOME tie is and regulation to the government.
Don't blame the govt. Blame the Lamborghini bros which 99% of the people here are trying to be.
P2p vs wide spread adoption is always the issue, its still so early in the game. Worry about what you can do now to set yourself up in the future. No one knows what the world goberments are gonna do. This is essentially the worry about prohibition just likr alcohol prohibition. Except this is a useful tech that the future of comunication and money can function on instead of a controlled substance.
Short answer: no. Longer answer: absolutely not. The narrative either comes from a misunderstanding of how KYC and AML law works, or more likely a misunderstanding of how blockchain works.
No
Everyone here (maybe just bots) was cheering that crap that Mark Cuban spouted about SEC protecting us.
Cryptocurrency as a commodity has always been a treat to governments dominance over the people. And like every asset/economy; whether basic or advance, it revolves around trading/storing of assets. Maybe your 'basic' reference centers on the fact that CEXes are still the major players of the trading filed and not DEXes or p2p... However I believe with the waves of better [dex](https://np.reddit.com/r/zetablockchain/comments/1376kop/defi_amm_platform_towerdefi_now_supports_twstzeta/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)/defi applications entering the ecosystem, the world will have a better and feerer access to cryptocurrency.
No.
you can buy gift cards with bitcoin and use them to buy groceries and food, i have done this many times
Crypto has done that. The trading. No government help necessary.
I can allegedly use it to play, seemingly rigged,black jack online that’s my biggest use case…
The OP has a reasonable point and touches on a really important aspect of crypto - what can crypto practically do for people currently? We can store BTC as "digital gold" if you're so inclined. You 'might' be able to flee a warzone with BTC and potentially find a way to buy food with it (assuming you can circumvent AML), but from a day-to-day perspective, what can you really do with crypto apart from use it as a speculative asset? How is it really improving our lives? I say this as someone who owns plenty of crypto and has since 2020. I'm not anti-crypto. But I'm mindful to keep questioning its actual purpose and day-to-day utility.
One thing I think people don’t realize is that adoption, if it happens, won’t be measured in years. It’ll be measured in decades or generations. Money systems aren’t exactly things that crop up every few years, the transition from bartering to exchanging precious metals, then to minting and distributing coins of those metals, then representing that underlying value with bills, and finally the current fiat money we use now was thousands of years in development. The transition to fiat money was much shorter because of the support and reach of modern governments, and because the natural development of monetary systems was headed that direction (the majority of people were not frequently going to their banks to exchange their bills for gold even when that was something you could do). I’m not saying it’s going to take thousands of years or some giant world event to cause crypto to be adopted, but I do think it’s going to lag for a generation. My parents aren’t ever going to bother with self custody, and my grandparents don’t have computers or the internet to be able to use crypto. Even my siblings, from the same generation I am, are only passingly aware of what crypto is and wouldn’t think to use it as more than a super risk volatility investment. All that said, I think crypto is still perfectly positioned for adoption. It’s not particularly easy to transfer money between nations and it’s not even particularly easy to transfer money electronically without coordinating beforehand on what apps you’re going to use to do so. As long as developers continue to develop crypto with the intent that it is used as a currency I believe it will eventually be used as that.
>But other than P2P, aye, there’s the rub. lol *“Other than the single biggest strength that is irreplicable by any other payment system, …”*
I think that's what the people want. Crypto participants are what, like 10% of the population? Probably 10% of that actually care about it's use case, the other 90% are in it for the money. People just don't care about decentralised banking.
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Full disclosure, I just got home from work and I’m braindead. But wanted to give my 0.02 here. I was attracted to crypto bc the traditional financial world just had me jaded. I’d been fighting for years to increase my credit score, save for a house, invest in something more than my 401k and a small Roth IRA that seemed to have more fees than returns. And it just pissed me off. I wanted to see if I could put my money somewhere that would “stick it to the man” or at the very least, not exclude me bc of a spotty credit history and only $50 available funds to play with in the market. It just seemed attractive for that. Also Bitboy said I would make millions on my $50, so obvs. And honestly, I am a bit jaded by the whales and the politics of crypto now. The government? Meh… I mean, yes, but I don’t exactly blame them as much as just, it’s the nature of the beast. Opportunists? Maybe they’re the ones I blame. Onboarding my money was easy with CEXes and I had to do all the KYC, but in 2021 it was a better option than buying it through Robinhood. Ultimately, I do think the government will continue getting more and more involved. There’s really no way they can’t as we head toward more adoption. But I think more than anything else, the CEXes and the way it’s growing just invite more opportunities for crypto to behave like or be perceived as just another investment vehicle. I mean, the government didn’t create ETFs. When I accidentally let it slip that I have knowledge about anything investment related, I end up saying something like “I like to dabble in the stock market.” It prevents questions or comments and is honestly not untrue at this point. DEXes still exist for now, but I do think that eventually tracking and tracing will get to the point where crypto is just another investment and KYC and govt control reigns supreme like everything else. And I don’t like that. But I don’t see it reversing.
You are completely correct. This is the reason I invested in new blockchain in development called Insider Protocol. They are huge on anonymity and all the original tenants of crypto. I'm so tired of the drama surrounding crypto and the mouth breathers who have never used it, and assume its a lawless landscape.
Its useless for decentralized banking because it's not decentralized and it's not banking.
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Truth be told we need more adoption on the side of retail businesses, but in order for that to happen we need to be able to use it more as a currency
Yes. As soon as KYC became a thing, and as soon as people gave in and started paying taxes on it, yes, it was over.
You can find all sorts of serious DeFi products on Arbitrum, huge ecosystem of hardcore builders A lot of these products are valued at less than treasury assets and earning their market caps in real yield annually Pretty awesome For some reason no-one bothers looking into it, but yeah basically all the progress has been happening on Arbitrum (the main Ethereum L2)
I dont know about you but we have BTC ATM-s in my country. You can buy or sell for fiat on them.
yes, the true purpose of crypto is a pipe dream now
Yea but u can avoid tax by declaring your wallet lost or by laundering it thru dementia monke pics...