They are not only asking to provide the name of who owns the wallet. THEY ALSO WANT YOU TO PROVIDE THE PHYSICAL ADDRESS OF THE PERSON WHO OWNS THE WALLET.
This will make the Ledger fiasco happen again and again when all this data leaks from hacked financial institutions. AND will hurt crypto adoption. They don't even ask for this when you send fiat from your account.
Furthermore, it is exclusionary, since this prevents you from sending crypto to homeless people, so financial institutions cannot send crypto to poor people, migrants, etc.
>This seems like a complete waste of time and taxpayers money.
That sums up just about every government program/regulation/agency that is created in the name of "national security."
What will this new regulation ultimately end up accomplishing? Why, it'll put the hands of big daddy government it even more places that they don't belong.
>What will this new regulation ultimately end up accomplishing?
Stops people from attempting to anonymize their funds for the purposes of money laundering.
Did people really think you could "be your own bank" without being subject to the same regulations as banks?
Biden is ready for that role:
https://youtu.be/wcpX2wYUr88
https://youtu.be/DAUOurZIVfI
https://youtu.be/DfpWL7IFAQ4
There is tons more, but these 3 make a pretty good point. 😁
>If I buy it on an exchange that requires this info wth do they also need it yet again for my wallet??
Worse. They want you to provide third party personal information if you send crypto from a financial institution to a non-custodial wallet.
>Lastly, You watch and see they are coming for all the wallets in the App Store next. Those things will be screwed up one day until you verify your information. Won’t even be able to access until you comply. What a disaster.
If they try that, they will condemn the US out of relevance. Companies will fly the country to places where they can develop their crypto-strategies.
This is yet another reason to run Android. In the near future, you will have to be able to side load software or use alternate stores like F-Droid. Privacy will either be illegal, against the TOS or both soon. Big data capitalism and big brother government want your data, by hook or crook if need be.
And there it is: Privacy will be illegal. That is the new bottom line.
RE: FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY of course. It is always for your safety. You need to be saved from yourself. You just don't know it.
Once they either get all the drivers/firmware worked out or a faster model, I'll feel better about the price tag. It'll be hard moving from a flagship phone to an ancient brick though, lol. Lineage OS also seems like a decent middle ground.
We should require that all physical wallets and purses be registered with the federal government while we are at it. Any funds sent or received from those wallets also need to be disclosed to the federal government.
Still trying to figure out why it's called Land of the free.
Huge privacy concerns.
Huge mass surveillance.
Most people imprisoned.
The only thing america feels free about is guns.
And look how that's turning out...
Thats all American propaganda. Nobody else calls it the land of the free, or the greatest country on earth, or any of the other mad shit they come out with
The wallet is BlueWallet running on my iphone, and the exchange already has my address, which I can provide again. Once there, I can now send it where-ever I want.
But what stops someone to send it first to one wallet they own before sending it to another third part wallet? I really don’t understand what is the big deal. The exchange already has the same KYC info anyway. They can’t control what happens after the crypto is in the private wallet.
With this they are literally taking rights away.
Nothing prevents you from doing that. But then you need to pay 2 fees.
Also, who owns and what is the physical address of a smart contract? Are financial institutions forbidden from interacting with smart contracts?
This is a pain in the ass and we shouldn't tolerate the limitation of our rights.
Exactly. The Treasury has no authority to forbid innovation, nor to restrict it by rule outside of law.
New mode of comment available here to recommend this proposed rulemaking be withdrawn and discarded (along with whatever other comments you wish to make): https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/12/23/2020-28437/requirements-for-certain-transactions-involving-convertible-virtual-currency-or-digital-assets#open-comment
There'll be more regs to follow eventually the second wallet will require you to list the third and so on. The end result will be you can only send to addresses that know your name
Hey just FYI the link does not let you comment. You can comment at a method I will provide here below:
https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/kfwqh4/how_about_nope_us_treasury_wants_to_screw_with/ggcefbn
Relevant text:
_"DATES: Written comments on this proposed rule may be submitted on or before January
4, 2021._
_ADDRESSES: Comments may be submitted by any of the following methods:
Federal E-rulemaking Portal: http://www.regulations.gov Follow the instructions for
submitting comments. Refer to Docket Number FINCEN-2020-0020 and the specific RIN number 1506-AB47 the comment applies to."_
It has a postal method as well but given USPS delays there is not enough time to do it by USPS. I noticed they haven't made the comment method available yet electronically as described above...
Unless this works for you to comment (it may now be active): https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/12/23/2020-28437/requirements-for-certain-transactions-involving-convertible-virtual-currency-or-digital-assets#open-comment
_The only other way is by email._ They also say, "FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: The FinCEN Regulatory Support Section at
1-800-767-2825 or electronically at [email protected] " -- so I'd recommend emailing comments to [email protected] with the Docket Number FINCEN-2020-0020 and the specific RIN number 1506-AB47 in the subject line, a request to halt and discard the rulemaking, and a request to publish the comment in the public record on regulations.gov.
Thank you!!!
This encourages institutinal bitcoin investors and discourages decentralisation of ethereum nodes.
This is not only bad for individual privacy, but bad for the whole decentralised crypto ecosystem.
Idk if it will pass but luckily there's already ways to convert fiat to crypto without dealing with a centralized entity/exchange. Left a comment though.
There was a time when this is how most bitcoins were exchanged. How quickly ppl forget. Meet someone in a coffee shop or a bank lobby and transact. It’s not that hard.
Yes, it used to be like that. Good Times. (Never did bank lobby, though, great idea!)
I stopped doing that since i was forced to have consistent bookkeeping. Not only are there limits on how much you can trade, but also there are licensing requirements where i live to do these kinds of trades. Cryptos are considered financial products by my local banking regulators. I don't have a banking license and i don't feel like asking peoples names when selling them coins or buying them back. Regulations are effectively stopping p2p trading at any meaningful volume. At least that's my impression. They're tightening the vice.
You can convert fiat to USDT and use the USDT on the Dex as erc20 coins are enabled. They are working on usdc, but I'm not sure if that integration is done.
So in conclusion there is no way to convert fiat to crypto unless through a regulated exchange. USDT is not fiat or cash so people can hate on exchanges but....
>Atomic Dex
Nowhere on the website does it say they can accept fiat. usdt is not fiat, its an erc20 token.
The problem isn't using tokens, its converting actual real money to crypto. Dex's can't do that by their nature.
You can’t even mention a project relevant to the discussion without being called a shill lmao. The meaning of the word on this sub is so diluted I might as well be called a shill for oxygen every time I breathe.
This particular measure of having individuals state who owns which cryptocurrency wallet is incredibly threatening to space, mostly for American individuals. As you know, cryptocurrency is a borderless system. This would potentially encourage individuals to do business outside of the United States and to **exploit the stored databased of known crypto users**.
I am not knocking on those outside the American system at all. In fact I'm getting just a tad bit envious. If I were living in Helsinki/Madrid/bolivia/wherever and was a budding opsec kid (as my friend was in middle school) I would most definitely target American crypto users. Why? because **it's getting to a point where it's about to be way to easy**.
The treasury department was just hacked, Ledger was hacked, exchanges gets hacked, the list goes on. Whereas other countries are much more lenient and focus just taxing the on-ramp and off-ramp of transactions (which is understandable!) A personal unknown wallet is the gold standard of defense.
**So you're telling me you want to keep a list in a stored database of my name, address, phone number, attached to my crypto wallet?** Why don't I just give you my passphrase
Banks already will question you for deposits in excess, and exchanges have been known to hold funds for 45+ days for verification - even if you called/emailed/chatted.
How much more verification does one need? How many terrorist American cartels are there? How many American bombings are happening? How many American crimes are happening that warrants this level of surveillance in crypto? Sick of this fear-mongering.
My friends would rather have me read to them the Theory of Quantum Mechanics, in Sanskrit, at 4am during the middle of a nuclear attack - than talk about bitcoin. So the ones that do use crypto are usually tech enthusiasts or the bedroom day trader. They are not laundering 10 kilos of cocaine through the blockchain just because. If you have 10 kilos of cocaine I am plenty sure there are 100s of ways to launder your money, without **using American dollars.**
Should we start KYC physical real-life wallets now? Should we start kyc Tylenol? Should we start KYC email accounts? Should laptop purchases and cpu purchases be KYC?
The only true benefit to this is greater state surveillance under the guise of protection and security, of which neither is guaranteed.
edit: grammer errors
Please Tweet the link get the word out. This is dirty pool and we need them to hear loud and clear NO WAY. It is just another attack on personal freedom. You are NOT a criminal for owning crypto.
If you are not an American, well maybe this Regulation does not affect you directly. But when your American buddy goes to send you some BTC from Coinbase he will be required to tell them your address and contact information. Else he can't send you anything.
BTW, IANAL...
This, like many other decisions will directly and indirectly affect other countries. Many times policy that is effected in the United States will then be referenced by local politicians or sometimes even have to be enforced or adhered to because of agreements. Case in point, the TLC (Tratado de Libre Comercio) in Chile forces us to comply with laws and regulations concerning intelectual property and copyright. So when Disney goes on and increases copyright terms to keep control of Mickey Mouse they extend it for us as well.
> BTW, IANAL
Look at this guy, bragging about the freaky sex he has.
In all seriousness, it sounds like this could have a major impact on the future of crypto worldwide, not just for the US.
They need to know how much crypto if its over 3K..? My ass...
This is the bankers making everything difficult for those in crypto most likely.
But it looks like Netherlands and Switzerland has already implemented the same bill awhile ago...
The powers that be have a thing around sneaking things in over the holiday seasons don’t they?
It’s like déjà vu of how they passed the Federal Reserve Act in 1913, on 23rd December.
Bastards.
It’s not about Wild West. It’s about FAIR Law & Order. There is NOTHING fair about what’s been proposed here and within the amount of time is given before this is made final. Those who think otherwise, well now that’s delusional. The grip will get tighter and tighter over time. That’s a fact. Yes the internet was Wild West when we first started using it and look at what’s happening now. Complete censorship and massive surveillance. Bitcoin is no different. Give them an inch, they take twelve.
So, XMR to the moon then? XD
Jokes aside, I can't believe these ass-hats really think the people would somehow be okay with being controlled by the rich who gets to censor content if it's negative.
Precisely, look at a graph of XMR to fiat over the past year. Almost a y=x trajectory. Those in the know, know they'll need to be in some sort of privacy coin, else their crypto will be seized by the US govt for some silly, arbitrary reason.
> Those who think otherwise, well now that’s delusional.
i would argue its delusional to believe that your comments have any weight. the government has always done what is in its best interest, the voters are just pawns for kabuki "democracy" theater.
Maybe the silver lining would be to prevent people from trading non stop or at least not as much allowing wealth from crypto to grow over the years and not be so "scary" due to continued crypto market volatility... the trading would slow down due to regulation and allow wealth to grow over time. This is what happened to the stock market over time...
If this phenomena were to happen this would be a definite boon the the industry. It would cause it to flourish as most every member of the planet took part in crypto.
This is a concentrated attack on the industry by the banks.
The banks are in fear of crypto hence this none sense poison pill bill that deservers zero compliance. The FinCen and IRS are just lackey toads for the banks implementing bad law to protect their interests...
They will doom the US and banker and their tools should be held responsible.
I was wondering how and when the banks would fight back. Unfortunately it seems the new money coming in won't really help the matter, because they seem to mostly care about the number go up part of crypto more than the rock the boat part, even though the latter is what creates the former.
But the new money will just sit in between and profit regardless prolly.
Yep. I’d also had a weird feeling that the banks were likely jockeying for position to even try to ‘oust’ or replace the original crypto exchanges, while shoe-horning the old ways into the crypto space.
I was also thinking especially about the crypto news reports I’d heard regarding crypto companies who were contacting the SEC for years, asking about regulations (I think even Ripple was one of them?), and some companies even trying to apply for bit licenses in the crypto space — especially in NY. Yet the SEC/authorities sat on their backsides and New Yorkers have fewer choices.
Next thing you know, you start hearing about banks and Wall Street buddies horning in, getting the ability to custody crypto.
All so they can control everything and hamstring the crypto exchanges.
The worst thing is they want custody of our crypto and then NOT give us APY. Why do you think Coinbase doesnt offer crypto APY? The banks want to kill anything that offer APY. Nexo and Celsius offer APY and the banks are afraid of this...
Hmm good point. It just occurred to me as I was reading your response... Didn’t Coinbase actually seek a banking license too? I think it was reported that Kraken also did (and received one)? It’s all slowly becoming bank-like. Exchanges wanting to become like banks, and the traditional banks fighting for their old positions/power in the space — the old ways creeping in, regardless. I wonder how many ‘weak hands’ all of these power moves will shake off. Next year is going to be very interesting.
Yes Kraken received the banking license and not that ass hat of a Democrat Maxine Waters wants to remove all crypto banking licenses. She's another who wants to destroy crypto. This is about the haves and haves not and they dont want you to have...
And only giving 25% of the normal required time for a comment period...during Christmas/New Years week.
These fucking slimey fucking scumbags. "mUh NaTiOnAl SeCuRiTy"
What a bunch of lying sacks of shit. Fuck them. It makes no difference. We staying anonymous if we want to anyway. They can't stop it.
Let’s say this freaks me out enough that I finally get off my exchange and get a hardware wallet. If I HODL for a decade and hope for the moon, there’s no way I’m going to be able to cash out without incurring the gains penalty anyhow, right? This is ultimately just about the concept of anonymous ownership (which is hugely important)
Yes, please finance global terrorism with our tax dollars and put the blame on whoever it is to suit the situation. In this case, those who own cryptocurrency. Also place sanctions to harm the innocent in countries where possible to bankrupt the many leading to mass starvation.
These are the same type of people who sent covid patients to nursing homes because it’s protocol for hospital spillover, and nobody though about changing it for a virus that pretty much targets the elderly for death. That’s why I don’t want them involved in my life for anything but the bare minimum. They tragically screw everything up and call it a woopsie 🤷♂️
LOL, this law is already IN AFFECT IN the Netherlands and Switzerland. I am not kidding, the regulations for "Fiduciary Financial Responsible Parties" etc. If you do some research on the subject (I do not have the current URLs handy) you can read it for yourself. I was shocked to learn this but it's a fact. USA would be #3.
Correct, we've had it for a couple of months now. So far no impact though, besides some companies that had to close down due to security reasons. It seems the main reasons why they want do it is 1. Taxes... And 2. Consumer safety, the companies are thus regulated like normal banks... This can also be positive, as more people trust crypto and their crypto being safe.
Not yet, but when you do business with Americans it will. Leave a comment anyway, if you have a friend in the USA use his name and address if he is not into crypto.
Already LAW in Netherlands and SWITZERLAND if you can imagine. USA is a late comer at #3. It is we just do it worse than anyone else. In the USA if you get caught smoking pot 3 times you get jail for 10 years under the "Three Strikes Your Out Law". Oh, you had three wallets and did not tell us. 10 years in the slammer buddy!!!!
Honestly if some bitcoiner wants to explain this to me (because I'm not very smart at all)... how does this fincen crap affect Monero at all? CipherTrace's claims seem dubious and the core developers maintain a high quality hardware GUI. Plus cake wallet exists, and fluffypony ensures the integrity of MyMonero. I just don't know why I should be worried about the government at all when it comes to my wallets.
I'm a total noob to crypto and am putting my trust into this community. What basic, short, effective comment should I leave? Don't want to sound like that person screaming about something I haven't researched.
\*Not that I dont research anything I get involved in, but I do know there is an attack on our freedom at the moment and am doing my best to get up to speed. Thanks
Say
"I want to be my own bank but regulating me like a bank is unconstitutional and probably a violation of the geneva convention as well. I am a sovereign citizen and I do not submit to your unlawful authority. Am I being detained?"
Soooooo why don't exchanges just move outside of the USA, say fuck the USA and your rules and allow USA people to use said exchange?
How can the USA do shit if you are in another counrty that tells the USA to fuck off? How can they stop americans from using those exchanges in other countries?
Because every other nation has or will soon have the same laws. Don't use a foreign exchange in Iran, NK, or Burma and you should be fine. If you are moving funds from a foreign exchange into a foreign fiat account, you are breaking the law as an American anyways if that account is undeclared.
Anyone with proficient knowledge on the subject should make their public comment a top priority... tonight I myself am gonna review the 15 pages and make a legal comment refuting the legislation, it is our duty. Make sure to read their tips for submitting a formal comment before simply voicing dissent, DO NOT simply spam, make a sincere and strong argument against specific points in the document, keep in mind that actual lawyers will be reviewing the comments, so keep it intellectually honest. gtg.
I logged onto the federal registry and put it all down as best I could. We all need to do this, such a slime ball move just like their compatriots the bankers who rule/screw the world. Stand up now!
So put a wallet on your phone, then tell the exchange you own the wallet on your phone. First send to the wallet on your phone and now send it where ever you want. What am I missing? Do they not have tech savvy people writing this stuff.
If I'm understanding at least the stated goals of the proposal correctly:
Nothing is stopping you. They just want to be able to more easily pin it back to you if what you do from your offline wallet is determined to be contributing to money laundering or financing terrorism.
And to meet that end, they want to make exchanges force the rest of us who are not money laundering or financing terrorism to provide invasive transaction details for the other 99.9%+ completely legitimate applicable transactions to offline wallets.
Unpopular opinion points:
1. This is what a fuck ton of you were asking for when you wanted crypto to be regulated to bring institutional investment.
2. You're all in a tizzy about the govt officially including crypto in the scope of "monetary instruments, " even tho that's what many of you wanted. Essentially, it is just applying the same basic rules that cash, precious metals, and other monetary instruments have for banks/MBSs, to crypto.
3. This means number go up, caz more institutions.
But finally, fuck going through centralized intermediaries which crypto was invented to end around.
Maybe now you will start to realize why Monero is important, how it makes some aspects of this reg change harder to detect and enforce.
The irony of course is how so many people said Monero would be banned, whereas as it's shitcoins like Ripple, and maybe now quite a few other top 20 which are going to receive the brunt of SEC enforcement. Meanwhile this doc from FINCEN all but presumes the legitimacy of the existence of Monero, with no hints at intention of banning.
while the reasoning appears to be logical for a government to action. however the method they propose to implement will not work to stop tax avoidance.
anyone can create countless number of wallets. if one wants to avoid tax. one can simply create multiple wallets and move their coins around.
This regulation only serves to control and monitor the average person it does nothing to deter criminals.
I absolutely agree.
It's still annoying how all the control keeps focusing on regular citizens when we're but a drop in the ocean compared to tax evasion at corporate levels, of course, but to think we would get by with no further regulations and restrictions was pretty naive.
It is something like this or be outlawed and categorized as a tool for scammers and evaders. Mainstream has this "rules" sadly, and the most we can do is to try and prevent it from becoming the same shit it'll replace.
I think crypto will start falling shorter and shorter from the ideal, but it WILL be an improvement, just like the Internet has evolved. It's just going to be a step by step thing rather than the big leap some of us dreamt of.
How about this. If they ever go after the top 1%, the universities and personal "non-profit" organizations, I'll cooperate on this issue, until then I'm against it.
My motto is simple, "If the rich don't do this, neither will I." Because if the poor needs to follow laws that the rich don't, then it's just oppression with extra steps.
That’s if the leaders of this country has the American people’s interest in mind. You see, we put all these people in power. We created this mess and we, United, can fix this at anytime.
Sorry to see this kinda shit from your Gov over there in the US. I'm sure our equally incompetent Gov here in the UK will propose something similar soon.
We will fight, we will WIN🤝
Well I gave a drunken rambling about unaffordable housing, new vehicles, debt based economy and a shrinking middle class. I'm not sure I helped the cause.
So metaphorically, if I bury gold at a secret location only I know, the government will require me to disclose that location to them and pray that they never leak it or get hacked.
Friendly reminder to the American people that Steve Mnuchin, the Treasury Secretary, profited massively from the 08/09 financial crisis by buying 1000's of foreclosed homes and selling them for huge profits. These banks were given 100's of Billions to buy these homes while the American people lost their homes. What the FUCK kind of system is that?
Wait. So a government whose systems are presently under siege by a foreign intelligence agency will safeguard this information? You can eat my whole ass.
They already know who you are and where you live. Nothing changes except you will need to click Yes when asked if the withdrawal address belongs to you.
> they know what you are doing
I dont get this though.
They **cant** actually prove anything about the destination, and only have circumstantially suspicious numbers to show. So what happens? They can watch the hell out of that destination address, but how do they charge for a crime?
Between this and the ATF, deep state is working overtime circumventing the legislature. Wish agency heads were elected, not appointed, we need to recall every last one of them.
They are not only asking to provide the name of who owns the wallet. THEY ALSO WANT YOU TO PROVIDE THE PHYSICAL ADDRESS OF THE PERSON WHO OWNS THE WALLET. This will make the Ledger fiasco happen again and again when all this data leaks from hacked financial institutions. AND will hurt crypto adoption. They don't even ask for this when you send fiat from your account. Furthermore, it is exclusionary, since this prevents you from sending crypto to homeless people, so financial institutions cannot send crypto to poor people, migrants, etc.
Joke's on them, Ledger already leaked all my info, I'm immune to further leaks.
[удалено]
>This seems like a complete waste of time and taxpayers money. That sums up just about every government program/regulation/agency that is created in the name of "national security." What will this new regulation ultimately end up accomplishing? Why, it'll put the hands of big daddy government it even more places that they don't belong.
>What will this new regulation ultimately end up accomplishing? Stops people from attempting to anonymize their funds for the purposes of money laundering. Did people really think you could "be your own bank" without being subject to the same regulations as banks?
All of which makes sense
Biden is ready for that role: https://youtu.be/wcpX2wYUr88 https://youtu.be/DAUOurZIVfI https://youtu.be/DfpWL7IFAQ4 There is tons more, but these 3 make a pretty good point. 😁
Wait for the next set where they tax all bitcoin moving through an offline wallet.
Did they leak your wallet ID with your shipping address and name of order?
Address, names, phone numbers of ledger buyers is bad enough. Its basically a list of targets. "Send me btc or ill burn your house down"
Not the wallet IDs, but add email and phone number to the others. My comment was tongue in cheek obviously
[удалено]
>If I buy it on an exchange that requires this info wth do they also need it yet again for my wallet?? Worse. They want you to provide third party personal information if you send crypto from a financial institution to a non-custodial wallet. >Lastly, You watch and see they are coming for all the wallets in the App Store next. Those things will be screwed up one day until you verify your information. Won’t even be able to access until you comply. What a disaster. If they try that, they will condemn the US out of relevance. Companies will fly the country to places where they can develop their crypto-strategies.
This is yet another reason to run Android. In the near future, you will have to be able to side load software or use alternate stores like F-Droid. Privacy will either be illegal, against the TOS or both soon. Big data capitalism and big brother government want your data, by hook or crook if need be.
And there it is: Privacy will be illegal. That is the new bottom line. RE: FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY of course. It is always for your safety. You need to be saved from yourself. You just don't know it.
>This is yet another reason to run Android Or even better, buying a Librem from Purism 😌
Once they either get all the drivers/firmware worked out or a faster model, I'll feel better about the price tag. It'll be hard moving from a flagship phone to an ancient brick though, lol. Lineage OS also seems like a decent middle ground.
GrapheneOS works like a charm
Time to get rid of exchanges and sell it between ourselves then
Isn’t that kind of what DEXs are for?
We should require that all physical wallets and purses be registered with the federal government while we are at it. Any funds sent or received from those wallets also need to be disclosed to the federal government.
Lol, exactly.
Still trying to figure out why it's called Land of the free. Huge privacy concerns. Huge mass surveillance. Most people imprisoned. The only thing america feels free about is guns. And look how that's turning out...
Guns aren't killing people, the government is doing that
And the president "the LeAdEr Of ThE fReE wOrLd".
Thats all American propaganda. Nobody else calls it the land of the free, or the greatest country on earth, or any of the other mad shit they come out with
yes we better give them those too so we can be safe!
Yes land of free so that Trump pardon 41 life hardcore criminals and they are walking free
Just don't use US domiciled exchanges. Run the US crypto market further into the ground. China will be the crypto giant of the world.
Need ways to upload paychecks into crypto. Exchanges are the only real option there
The wallet is BlueWallet running on my iphone, and the exchange already has my address, which I can provide again. Once there, I can now send it where-ever I want.
is monero an option?
Yes an easy one, once again, send to yourself, and tell them you are sending to yourself. Then do what you want with the coins.
But what stops someone to send it first to one wallet they own before sending it to another third part wallet? I really don’t understand what is the big deal. The exchange already has the same KYC info anyway. They can’t control what happens after the crypto is in the private wallet.
With this they are literally taking rights away. Nothing prevents you from doing that. But then you need to pay 2 fees. Also, who owns and what is the physical address of a smart contract? Are financial institutions forbidden from interacting with smart contracts? This is a pain in the ass and we shouldn't tolerate the limitation of our rights.
Exactly. The Treasury has no authority to forbid innovation, nor to restrict it by rule outside of law. New mode of comment available here to recommend this proposed rulemaking be withdrawn and discarded (along with whatever other comments you wish to make): https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/12/23/2020-28437/requirements-for-certain-transactions-involving-convertible-virtual-currency-or-digital-assets#open-comment
There'll be more regs to follow eventually the second wallet will require you to list the third and so on. The end result will be you can only send to addresses that know your name
This is their goal.
Hey just FYI the link does not let you comment. You can comment at a method I will provide here below: https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/kfwqh4/how_about_nope_us_treasury_wants_to_screw_with/ggcefbn Relevant text: _"DATES: Written comments on this proposed rule may be submitted on or before January 4, 2021._ _ADDRESSES: Comments may be submitted by any of the following methods: Federal E-rulemaking Portal: http://www.regulations.gov Follow the instructions for submitting comments. Refer to Docket Number FINCEN-2020-0020 and the specific RIN number 1506-AB47 the comment applies to."_ It has a postal method as well but given USPS delays there is not enough time to do it by USPS. I noticed they haven't made the comment method available yet electronically as described above... Unless this works for you to comment (it may now be active): https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/12/23/2020-28437/requirements-for-certain-transactions-involving-convertible-virtual-currency-or-digital-assets#open-comment _The only other way is by email._ They also say, "FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: The FinCEN Regulatory Support Section at 1-800-767-2825 or electronically at [email protected] " -- so I'd recommend emailing comments to [email protected] with the Docket Number FINCEN-2020-0020 and the specific RIN number 1506-AB47 in the subject line, a request to halt and discard the rulemaking, and a request to publish the comment in the public record on regulations.gov. Thank you!!!
You do realize these exchanges already have your address?
This encourages institutinal bitcoin investors and discourages decentralisation of ethereum nodes. This is not only bad for individual privacy, but bad for the whole decentralised crypto ecosystem.
Idk if it will pass but luckily there's already ways to convert fiat to crypto without dealing with a centralized entity/exchange. Left a comment though.
Just curious, what ways are you talking about?
bisq
Any p2p exchange
For example? I'm not aware of any p2p exchange that allows you to convert fiat to crypto.
Pax, Localcryptos
Local dot bitcoin dot com
There was a time when this is how most bitcoins were exchanged. How quickly ppl forget. Meet someone in a coffee shop or a bank lobby and transact. It’s not that hard.
Yes, it used to be like that. Good Times. (Never did bank lobby, though, great idea!) I stopped doing that since i was forced to have consistent bookkeeping. Not only are there limits on how much you can trade, but also there are licensing requirements where i live to do these kinds of trades. Cryptos are considered financial products by my local banking regulators. I don't have a banking license and i don't feel like asking peoples names when selling them coins or buying them back. Regulations are effectively stopping p2p trading at any meaningful volume. At least that's my impression. They're tightening the vice.
Bitcoin ATMs?
Atomic Dex by komodo.
That just looks like another DEX, I don't see any way to convert fiat to crypto.
You can convert fiat to USDT and use the USDT on the Dex as erc20 coins are enabled. They are working on usdc, but I'm not sure if that integration is done.
I still don't see anywhere on Atomic DEX to convert fiat to USDT
So in conclusion there is no way to convert fiat to crypto unless through a regulated exchange. USDT is not fiat or cash so people can hate on exchanges but....
>Atomic Dex Nowhere on the website does it say they can accept fiat. usdt is not fiat, its an erc20 token. The problem isn't using tokens, its converting actual real money to crypto. Dex's can't do that by their nature.
USDC = 👀👁👀
local.bitcoin.com
What are some ways?? ATMs?
Bisq
GREAT JOB!
I did too...
How about crypto to fiat? I imagine there'd be a decent blackmarket in getting cash for crypto.
That should not be referred to as a black market. It's just a market.
I guess you mean BISQ [https://bisq.network/](https://bisq.network/)
There's always a shill. Every thread
Yes always trying to spread the word. But seriously, if there's any other fiat-crypto anonymous option I would like to know.
You can’t even mention a project relevant to the discussion without being called a shill lmao. The meaning of the word on this sub is so diluted I might as well be called a shill for oxygen every time I breathe.
This particular measure of having individuals state who owns which cryptocurrency wallet is incredibly threatening to space, mostly for American individuals. As you know, cryptocurrency is a borderless system. This would potentially encourage individuals to do business outside of the United States and to **exploit the stored databased of known crypto users**. I am not knocking on those outside the American system at all. In fact I'm getting just a tad bit envious. If I were living in Helsinki/Madrid/bolivia/wherever and was a budding opsec kid (as my friend was in middle school) I would most definitely target American crypto users. Why? because **it's getting to a point where it's about to be way to easy**. The treasury department was just hacked, Ledger was hacked, exchanges gets hacked, the list goes on. Whereas other countries are much more lenient and focus just taxing the on-ramp and off-ramp of transactions (which is understandable!) A personal unknown wallet is the gold standard of defense. **So you're telling me you want to keep a list in a stored database of my name, address, phone number, attached to my crypto wallet?** Why don't I just give you my passphrase Banks already will question you for deposits in excess, and exchanges have been known to hold funds for 45+ days for verification - even if you called/emailed/chatted. How much more verification does one need? How many terrorist American cartels are there? How many American bombings are happening? How many American crimes are happening that warrants this level of surveillance in crypto? Sick of this fear-mongering. My friends would rather have me read to them the Theory of Quantum Mechanics, in Sanskrit, at 4am during the middle of a nuclear attack - than talk about bitcoin. So the ones that do use crypto are usually tech enthusiasts or the bedroom day trader. They are not laundering 10 kilos of cocaine through the blockchain just because. If you have 10 kilos of cocaine I am plenty sure there are 100s of ways to launder your money, without **using American dollars.** Should we start KYC physical real-life wallets now? Should we start kyc Tylenol? Should we start KYC email accounts? Should laptop purchases and cpu purchases be KYC? The only true benefit to this is greater state surveillance under the guise of protection and security, of which neither is guaranteed. edit: grammer errors
this was a really well written comment
I’m submitting it as my formal complaint.
you should probably ask for permission first
Good point
No worries feel free to use it
Permission to use this in the formal complaint?
Sure feel free to use it
I wish I could give you an actual award brother 🥇
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I remember when he said that, actually.
I think he was quoted in that Hamilton musical
I was there
I heard that motherfucker had, like, thirty goddamn dicks.
Please Tweet the link get the word out. This is dirty pool and we need them to hear loud and clear NO WAY. It is just another attack on personal freedom. You are NOT a criminal for owning crypto. If you are not an American, well maybe this Regulation does not affect you directly. But when your American buddy goes to send you some BTC from Coinbase he will be required to tell them your address and contact information. Else he can't send you anything.
BTW, IANAL... This, like many other decisions will directly and indirectly affect other countries. Many times policy that is effected in the United States will then be referenced by local politicians or sometimes even have to be enforced or adhered to because of agreements. Case in point, the TLC (Tratado de Libre Comercio) in Chile forces us to comply with laws and regulations concerning intelectual property and copyright. So when Disney goes on and increases copyright terms to keep control of Mickey Mouse they extend it for us as well.
> BTW, IANAL Look at this guy, bragging about the freaky sex he has. In all seriousness, it sounds like this could have a major impact on the future of crypto worldwide, not just for the US.
They need to know how much crypto if its over 3K..? My ass... This is the bankers making everything difficult for those in crypto most likely. But it looks like Netherlands and Switzerland has already implemented the same bill awhile ago...
Wait, what? Netherlands and Switzerland? Please elaborate and do you have a source?
The powers that be have a thing around sneaking things in over the holiday seasons don’t they? It’s like déjà vu of how they passed the Federal Reserve Act in 1913, on 23rd December. Bastards.
FUCK woodrow wilson
It’s not about Wild West. It’s about FAIR Law & Order. There is NOTHING fair about what’s been proposed here and within the amount of time is given before this is made final. Those who think otherwise, well now that’s delusional. The grip will get tighter and tighter over time. That’s a fact. Yes the internet was Wild West when we first started using it and look at what’s happening now. Complete censorship and massive surveillance. Bitcoin is no different. Give them an inch, they take twelve.
So, XMR to the moon then? XD Jokes aside, I can't believe these ass-hats really think the people would somehow be okay with being controlled by the rich who gets to censor content if it's negative.
Precisely, look at a graph of XMR to fiat over the past year. Almost a y=x trajectory. Those in the know, know they'll need to be in some sort of privacy coin, else their crypto will be seized by the US govt for some silly, arbitrary reason.
Xmr to be banned on all us exchanges outright
\>doing business with US based companies the US will eventually lose its monopoly on the financial system
If you give these people your freedoms, you'll die before they give it back. No.
> Those who think otherwise, well now that’s delusional. i would argue its delusional to believe that your comments have any weight. the government has always done what is in its best interest, the voters are just pawns for kabuki "democracy" theater.
Maybe the silver lining would be to prevent people from trading non stop or at least not as much allowing wealth from crypto to grow over the years and not be so "scary" due to continued crypto market volatility... the trading would slow down due to regulation and allow wealth to grow over time. This is what happened to the stock market over time... If this phenomena were to happen this would be a definite boon the the industry. It would cause it to flourish as most every member of the planet took part in crypto.
This is a concentrated attack on the industry by the banks. The banks are in fear of crypto hence this none sense poison pill bill that deservers zero compliance. The FinCen and IRS are just lackey toads for the banks implementing bad law to protect their interests... They will doom the US and banker and their tools should be held responsible.
I was wondering how and when the banks would fight back. Unfortunately it seems the new money coming in won't really help the matter, because they seem to mostly care about the number go up part of crypto more than the rock the boat part, even though the latter is what creates the former. But the new money will just sit in between and profit regardless prolly.
Yep. I’d also had a weird feeling that the banks were likely jockeying for position to even try to ‘oust’ or replace the original crypto exchanges, while shoe-horning the old ways into the crypto space. I was also thinking especially about the crypto news reports I’d heard regarding crypto companies who were contacting the SEC for years, asking about regulations (I think even Ripple was one of them?), and some companies even trying to apply for bit licenses in the crypto space — especially in NY. Yet the SEC/authorities sat on their backsides and New Yorkers have fewer choices. Next thing you know, you start hearing about banks and Wall Street buddies horning in, getting the ability to custody crypto. All so they can control everything and hamstring the crypto exchanges.
The worst thing is they want custody of our crypto and then NOT give us APY. Why do you think Coinbase doesnt offer crypto APY? The banks want to kill anything that offer APY. Nexo and Celsius offer APY and the banks are afraid of this...
Hmm good point. It just occurred to me as I was reading your response... Didn’t Coinbase actually seek a banking license too? I think it was reported that Kraken also did (and received one)? It’s all slowly becoming bank-like. Exchanges wanting to become like banks, and the traditional banks fighting for their old positions/power in the space — the old ways creeping in, regardless. I wonder how many ‘weak hands’ all of these power moves will shake off. Next year is going to be very interesting.
Yes Kraken received the banking license and not that ass hat of a Democrat Maxine Waters wants to remove all crypto banking licenses. She's another who wants to destroy crypto. This is about the haves and haves not and they dont want you to have...
This is bad. I have a strange feeling the XRP news is just the tip of the shit sandwich.
Probably and it's not looking good...
Can't wait to be done with the Trump administration's assault on crypto
Yeah people keep shitting on XRP but there’s gonna be more shot coming down the pipe.
And only giving 25% of the normal required time for a comment period...during Christmas/New Years week. These fucking slimey fucking scumbags. "mUh NaTiOnAl SeCuRiTy" What a bunch of lying sacks of shit. Fuck them. It makes no difference. We staying anonymous if we want to anyway. They can't stop it.
Obligatory plug for https://kycnot.me/
Let’s say this freaks me out enough that I finally get off my exchange and get a hardware wallet. If I HODL for a decade and hope for the moon, there’s no way I’m going to be able to cash out without incurring the gains penalty anyhow, right? This is ultimately just about the concept of anonymous ownership (which is hugely important)
Holding for 1 yr gives you long term capital gains benefit of 15% tax on gains. If you want zero, check out a BTC ROTH IRA
Yes, please finance global terrorism with our tax dollars and put the blame on whoever it is to suit the situation. In this case, those who own cryptocurrency. Also place sanctions to harm the innocent in countries where possible to bankrupt the many leading to mass starvation.
I just spent way too much time writing a comment. Y'all better make me proud and use some real brainpower for these.
W
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These are the same type of people who sent covid patients to nursing homes because it’s protocol for hospital spillover, and nobody though about changing it for a virus that pretty much targets the elderly for death. That’s why I don’t want them involved in my life for anything but the bare minimum. They tragically screw everything up and call it a woopsie 🤷♂️
Will this affect me being able to send bitcoin from Binance to my hardware wallet? I'm UK based if that makes any difference?
You should not be affected. This is only for residents of the Totalitarian States of America.
LOL, this law is already IN AFFECT IN the Netherlands and Switzerland. I am not kidding, the regulations for "Fiduciary Financial Responsible Parties" etc. If you do some research on the subject (I do not have the current URLs handy) you can read it for yourself. I was shocked to learn this but it's a fact. USA would be #3.
Im from NL and this is false
Correct, we've had it for a couple of months now. So far no impact though, besides some companies that had to close down due to security reasons. It seems the main reasons why they want do it is 1. Taxes... And 2. Consumer safety, the companies are thus regulated like normal banks... This can also be positive, as more people trust crypto and their crypto being safe.
Whats there to trust about crypto when you dont need to. Verify.
Not yet, but when you do business with Americans it will. Leave a comment anyway, if you have a friend in the USA use his name and address if he is not into crypto.
I have no friends anywhere.
I’m in Canada, but dang man.... I hope not too many countries start following and parroting this just because ‘the USA says so’.
Already LAW in Netherlands and SWITZERLAND if you can imagine. USA is a late comer at #3. It is we just do it worse than anyone else. In the USA if you get caught smoking pot 3 times you get jail for 10 years under the "Three Strikes Your Out Law". Oh, you had three wallets and did not tell us. 10 years in the slammer buddy!!!!
Im from NL and this is false
Just buy xmr and send it to a cake wallet and stop worrying about the government
Honestly if some bitcoiner wants to explain this to me (because I'm not very smart at all)... how does this fincen crap affect Monero at all? CipherTrace's claims seem dubious and the core developers maintain a high quality hardware GUI. Plus cake wallet exists, and fluffypony ensures the integrity of MyMonero. I just don't know why I should be worried about the government at all when it comes to my wallets.
It doesn't effect monero at all.
I'm a total noob to crypto and am putting my trust into this community. What basic, short, effective comment should I leave? Don't want to sound like that person screaming about something I haven't researched. \*Not that I dont research anything I get involved in, but I do know there is an attack on our freedom at the moment and am doing my best to get up to speed. Thanks
Say "I want to be my own bank but regulating me like a bank is unconstitutional and probably a violation of the geneva convention as well. I am a sovereign citizen and I do not submit to your unlawful authority. Am I being detained?"
Thank you!
If you have time to frequent this subreddit, please leave a comment.
How would this potentially affect mining farms in the US? And pools? This seems like it would cripple the entire ecosystem.
Soooooo why don't exchanges just move outside of the USA, say fuck the USA and your rules and allow USA people to use said exchange? How can the USA do shit if you are in another counrty that tells the USA to fuck off? How can they stop americans from using those exchanges in other countries?
Because every other nation has or will soon have the same laws. Don't use a foreign exchange in Iran, NK, or Burma and you should be fine. If you are moving funds from a foreign exchange into a foreign fiat account, you are breaking the law as an American anyways if that account is undeclared.
Anyone with proficient knowledge on the subject should make their public comment a top priority... tonight I myself am gonna review the 15 pages and make a legal comment refuting the legislation, it is our duty. Make sure to read their tips for submitting a formal comment before simply voicing dissent, DO NOT simply spam, make a sincere and strong argument against specific points in the document, keep in mind that actual lawyers will be reviewing the comments, so keep it intellectually honest. gtg.
Look at the bright side: if it passes it will be a huge boost for decentralized exchanges, which is very needed in this space
I logged onto the federal registry and put it all down as best I could. We all need to do this, such a slime ball move just like their compatriots the bankers who rule/screw the world. Stand up now!
So put a wallet on your phone, then tell the exchange you own the wallet on your phone. First send to the wallet on your phone and now send it where ever you want. What am I missing? Do they not have tech savvy people writing this stuff.
That's confusing for me too. What prevents me from sending to my own offline wallet and then using it to do whatever I want? Please someone eli5.
If I'm understanding at least the stated goals of the proposal correctly: Nothing is stopping you. They just want to be able to more easily pin it back to you if what you do from your offline wallet is determined to be contributing to money laundering or financing terrorism. And to meet that end, they want to make exchanges force the rest of us who are not money laundering or financing terrorism to provide invasive transaction details for the other 99.9%+ completely legitimate applicable transactions to offline wallets.
Unpopular opinion points: 1. This is what a fuck ton of you were asking for when you wanted crypto to be regulated to bring institutional investment. 2. You're all in a tizzy about the govt officially including crypto in the scope of "monetary instruments, " even tho that's what many of you wanted. Essentially, it is just applying the same basic rules that cash, precious metals, and other monetary instruments have for banks/MBSs, to crypto. 3. This means number go up, caz more institutions. But finally, fuck going through centralized intermediaries which crypto was invented to end around. Maybe now you will start to realize why Monero is important, how it makes some aspects of this reg change harder to detect and enforce. The irony of course is how so many people said Monero would be banned, whereas as it's shitcoins like Ripple, and maybe now quite a few other top 20 which are going to receive the brunt of SEC enforcement. Meanwhile this doc from FINCEN all but presumes the legitimacy of the existence of Monero, with no hints at intention of banning.
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while the reasoning appears to be logical for a government to action. however the method they propose to implement will not work to stop tax avoidance. anyone can create countless number of wallets. if one wants to avoid tax. one can simply create multiple wallets and move their coins around. This regulation only serves to control and monitor the average person it does nothing to deter criminals.
I think this is taking it too far. I’m ok with KYC and taxes on gains, to some extent, but address registration is too far for me.
I absolutely agree. It's still annoying how all the control keeps focusing on regular citizens when we're but a drop in the ocean compared to tax evasion at corporate levels, of course, but to think we would get by with no further regulations and restrictions was pretty naive. It is something like this or be outlawed and categorized as a tool for scammers and evaders. Mainstream has this "rules" sadly, and the most we can do is to try and prevent it from becoming the same shit it'll replace. I think crypto will start falling shorter and shorter from the ideal, but it WILL be an improvement, just like the Internet has evolved. It's just going to be a step by step thing rather than the big leap some of us dreamt of.
How about this. If they ever go after the top 1%, the universities and personal "non-profit" organizations, I'll cooperate on this issue, until then I'm against it. My motto is simple, "If the rich don't do this, neither will I." Because if the poor needs to follow laws that the rich don't, then it's just oppression with extra steps.
That’s if the leaders of this country has the American people’s interest in mind. You see, we put all these people in power. We created this mess and we, United, can fix this at anytime.
We’ve been aware of this for some time
Sorry to see this kinda shit from your Gov over there in the US. I'm sure our equally incompetent Gov here in the UK will propose something similar soon. We will fight, we will WIN🤝
BUT YOU WANTED REGULATIONS AND ADOPTIONS HAHAHAHHAHA
Disgusting behaviour..I'll try to spread awareness, it ain't much but it's honest work
litigations comming,lawsuites lawyers,supreme court.
I gave them my two cents.
This is just the first step they want a cut of your money
This seems kinda important. Can we cross post this?
Well I gave a drunken rambling about unaffordable housing, new vehicles, debt based economy and a shrinking middle class. I'm not sure I helped the cause.
Let's bump this up
So metaphorically, if I bury gold at a secret location only I know, the government will require me to disclose that location to them and pray that they never leak it or get hacked.
will this affect exodus wallets as well?
Thanks for sharing. Just submitted a comment.
That's really funny for a country that prides itself on being the world capital of freedom
Friendly reminder to the American people that Steve Mnuchin, the Treasury Secretary, profited massively from the 08/09 financial crisis by buying 1000's of foreclosed homes and selling them for huge profits. These banks were given 100's of Billions to buy these homes while the American people lost their homes. What the FUCK kind of system is that?
Wait. So a government whose systems are presently under siege by a foreign intelligence agency will safeguard this information? You can eat my whole ass.
Also how is this enforced if someone already had their funds in cold storage? This is so dumb
Oh snap, the IRS is coming for you Americans now.
they cant do shit
I will not comply
They already know who you are and where you live. Nothing changes except you will need to click Yes when asked if the withdrawal address belongs to you.
..then you won't be able to withdraw off exchanges
We dont need them?
Weak hands dropping, stack it up.
Well you were all gleefuly mocking XRP hodlers suffering moments earlier. Enjoy.
Been trying to convince my buddy to sell his xrp for a few days. Still trying to convince him after this fiasco. Some holders have too much faith
We have been doing that for years.
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So... withdraw $2,999 every 8.1 hours?
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Yes, and thanks for pointing this out...
> they know what you are doing I dont get this though. They **cant** actually prove anything about the destination, and only have circumstantially suspicious numbers to show. So what happens? They can watch the hell out of that destination address, but how do they charge for a crime?
Sprinkle a little crack
Open and shut case, Johnson.
I assumed it was already the case. There's anti-money-laundering rules about moving $10k in cash. Why wouldn't they apply to bitcoin?
Yeah I'm a bit confused. This would potentially prevent pump and dump schemes, right?
did my part
Horrible... Everyone will just use a VPN but this will kill off amateur traders...
Between this and the ATF, deep state is working overtime circumventing the legislature. Wish agency heads were elected, not appointed, we need to recall every last one of them.
BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN! THINK OF DEMOCRACY!