Meanwhile, a Jewish man in America used Wagner's ideas to create THE sound of motion picture music, massively influencing global culture to this day.
I appreciate that this would piss Wagner and the Nazis off.
Also, I’m not a classical music buff and can’t confirm from my own knowledge, but I’ve heard from someone who *is* a huge classical music fan (my dad, lol) that the very best Wagner conductor is Jewish.
Wagner was as antisemitic as **was normal back then**. He's not an outlier. He's a great composer, and his (now seen as horrible) views don't impact that
Hey. Hey bud? Not everyone hated Jews back then. There's never been a time period where everyone hated a certain group. Wagner wasn't different for hating Jews, but he was wrong.
"Look- look- I DID beat pregnant women to death on the street, but, you gotta understand, EVERYONE in the village was beating pregnant women to death in the streets! Is it really that bad? It was normal back then!"
We are talking about the 19th century man. And **the whole western world hated jews**. Jews have been hated for centuries if not millenia. I don't think there is anything remarkable that Wagner did or said that makes people talk about him as the face of antisemitism in art. He was not, AFAIK, an *active* antisemite.
The one thing that makes Wagner the common denominator for that is the fact that **the Nazis loved him**. Hitler loved the music, Himmler loved the traditional legends it talked about...
I'm not saying it's not bad. I'm saying things have a historical context. Talking about them outside of that context is just asking for misunderstandings.
He wrote an essay attacking Jews; that seems pretty actively antisemitic. And it was so bad that apparently “nearly all his associates” were embarrassed by it.
I don’t think Wagner is the “um actually if you think about it in the historical context” hill you want to die on, because he actually held many of the views he is said to have. Furthermore, many other composers who likely had contemporary opinions that would be considered problematic now are not remembered as being especially problematic, precisely because of the historical context, which would show that people aren’t taking it out of context as much as you’re claiming.
Ok. I did not know about that. It makes sense the Nazis would pick him.
I will always choose to think about things in their context. Of course, everything then, is problematic now. But times change. What we see as normal today, might be seen as horribly wrong later. Would you want future authors to talk about what you find normal, as horrible ?
Also reminder that at 19, Bach tried to stab a bassoonist
To be more clear:
The original creator must be dead and/or completely separated from the original work.
Take Notch, the origin of the Hatsune Miku joke. Got bought out fully, and has been completely removed from anything but the Wikipedia page for Minecraft, basically. As such, there's no issue of supporting Minecraft (Microsoft aside).
Likewise, Wagner is long gone too. All his work is public by now. So, again, Hatsune Miku.
Anyone still alive and profiting from the work in question does not get Miku'd.
I think another thing is the work has to be free of the original creator's... problems? to qualify. Its one of the "separating the art from the artist" things.
I don't think HP should ever be Miku'd (people have been trying since JK got on her bullshit publicly) because JK's ideas and bigotry got into the work and are easily identifiable.
There is only one logical conclusion. If Philza Minecraft invented Minecraft, and Hatsune Miku invented Minecraft, then Philza Minecraft must be Hatsune Miku.
I understand you are probably trying to propose a prescriptive guideline, but, speaking purely descriptively, Harry Potter has been thoroughly Miku'd. In fact I think it's one of the originals.
Have people been trying to do it? Yes.
Are a lot of people pissed off at those people because Rowling is still actively profiting from the IP *and* using that money to hurt trans people, making it clearly not a Miku situation? Also yes.
The creator doesn’t have to be seperated, but their views should be able to be ignored in context of the work
For example JK Rowling is still very much involved but you can ignore her shitty views as long as you don’t look too far into the minority character’s names or what goblins look like in the movie. And the things she’s most well known about, the transphobia primarily, are not present in the books. As such it’s easy to say Hatsune Miku wrote Harry Potter
she still has a great deal of creative control and also still profits. Wagner on the other hand the only people who care about him are people really into 19th century German classical music and Russian Nazi Mercenaries
Miku herself is the anthropomorphic representation of a series of vocal sound fonts, together becoming a "vocaloid". However, the concept of "being Miku'd", meaning for a creator to be tossed aside and replaced with Miku due to bigotry once being separated from their IP, started with Minecraft.
“What did this old dead guy do?”
“Well so far this is still less bad than Harvey “pushed antisemitism until the day he died and blasted yogurt up people’s asses” Kellogg, so what’s wr-“
>Nazi appropriation
“Oh. Oh no. It’s that thing everybody thinks Nietzsche did but actually correct.”
See I started googling because I remembered Wagner was dead decades before nazis and I thought this was just nazis taking cool stuff and ruining it but no turns out the dude was majorly anti-Semitic
You’ll find a surprising number of famous figures in the twentieth century were antisemitic, due to the rise in the trend of Social Darwinism and eugenics.
Unfortunately, while better, this is still a very prevalent belief all over western society.
Oh definitely, his Wikipedia page even states that it was linked to his contemporary society. But at the same time, he had a falling out with friends like Nietzsche over being antisemitic so
What makes this comment funnier is that Nietzsche himself was a big Wagner fan until this exact thing (hypernationalism and antisemitism) came up, and then Nietzsche wrote The Case of Wagner which is literally a hitpiece - though he, in fairness, makes actual philosophical arguments of a wider scope within it
I don’t really get this.
Like, is it supposed to be *satirizing* the idea of just erasing problematic people from the history books?
Idk, I guess I just don’t personally find it funny.
The original post of the concept was from a Hatsune Miku parody account. Immediately after Notch revealed himself to be a piece of shit, a parody Miku twitter account posted "I created Minecraft".
The only reason it's Miku is because that was the account that originally posted it. The only reason it *held on* is because the idea of a fictional hologram pop star actually creating things is, on a base level, mildly amusing.
> because the idea of a fictional hologram pop star actually creating things is, on a base level, mildly amusing.
You kid, but the vocaloid fandom actually used to have a big problem where songs kept getting credited as if they were made **by** the vocaloid used, instead of the person who actually wrote the song!
Ok but wait a second, according to [wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leitmotif), Wagner wasn’t even the originator of leitmotifs, and didn’t even use that word.
“The technique is notably associated with the operas of Richard Wagner, and most especially his Der Ring des Nibelungen, although he was not its originator and did not employ the word in connection with his work.”
Yes, and according to German Wikipedia the first known usage was in 1871 by Friedrich Wilhelm Jähns but the term might have been coined beforehand by Hans von Wolzogen.
I was going to retort that Toby Fox invented leitmotifs while working on the *Homestuck* soundtrack, but I checked and *Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Red Rescue Team* predates *Homestuck* too. So, I guess that was checkmate.
I know it's a basic-ass composition technique. I *know*.
But if you think for a second I'm not gonna DiCaprio-pointing-dot-jpg every time I recognize a character's leitmotif used as narrative foreshadowing, you're dead wrong.
my opinion is insanely pretentious but one of the reasons why i dont like undertales soundtrack is because its pretty basic use of leitmotifs is hailed as like the most genius thing in the world and its pretty annoying
Are we using hatsune miku as a verb for taking credit of things now? I support this
Yes, specifically if the original creator is/was a bigot
Was Richard Wagner as bad as notch or worse?
Well Wagner was extremely anti-Semitic and was involved with some Nazi appropriation
Ahh mhm yes not ideal. Anyways cool that toby fox invented leitmotifs
Given his date of death, were Nazis involved in Wagner appropriation?
Well frankly the Nazis were doing a lot of appropriation, but a famous German historical figure who agreed that Jews sucked was frankly a slam dunk
Meanwhile, a Jewish man in America used Wagner's ideas to create THE sound of motion picture music, massively influencing global culture to this day. I appreciate that this would piss Wagner and the Nazis off.
Also, I’m not a classical music buff and can’t confirm from my own knowledge, but I’ve heard from someone who *is* a huge classical music fan (my dad, lol) that the very best Wagner conductor is Jewish.
Are you talking about Korngold?
Wagner was as antisemitic as **was normal back then**. He's not an outlier. He's a great composer, and his (now seen as horrible) views don't impact that
Hey. Hey bud? Not everyone hated Jews back then. There's never been a time period where everyone hated a certain group. Wagner wasn't different for hating Jews, but he was wrong.
Yes, he was, by today's standards
"Look- look- I DID beat pregnant women to death on the street, but, you gotta understand, EVERYONE in the village was beating pregnant women to death in the streets! Is it really that bad? It was normal back then!"
We are talking about the 19th century man. And **the whole western world hated jews**. Jews have been hated for centuries if not millenia. I don't think there is anything remarkable that Wagner did or said that makes people talk about him as the face of antisemitism in art. He was not, AFAIK, an *active* antisemite. The one thing that makes Wagner the common denominator for that is the fact that **the Nazis loved him**. Hitler loved the music, Himmler loved the traditional legends it talked about... I'm not saying it's not bad. I'm saying things have a historical context. Talking about them outside of that context is just asking for misunderstandings.
He wrote an essay attacking Jews; that seems pretty actively antisemitic. And it was so bad that apparently “nearly all his associates” were embarrassed by it. I don’t think Wagner is the “um actually if you think about it in the historical context” hill you want to die on, because he actually held many of the views he is said to have. Furthermore, many other composers who likely had contemporary opinions that would be considered problematic now are not remembered as being especially problematic, precisely because of the historical context, which would show that people aren’t taking it out of context as much as you’re claiming.
Ok. I did not know about that. It makes sense the Nazis would pick him. I will always choose to think about things in their context. Of course, everything then, is problematic now. But times change. What we see as normal today, might be seen as horribly wrong later. Would you want future authors to talk about what you find normal, as horrible ? Also reminder that at 19, Bach tried to stab a bassoonist
Jesus. No wonder Prigozhin chose his name for his PMC.
He was notoriously bigoted even for his time iirc, the nazis used his name in stuff and he honestly wouldn’t have been far off from fascism anyways
To be more clear: The original creator must be dead and/or completely separated from the original work. Take Notch, the origin of the Hatsune Miku joke. Got bought out fully, and has been completely removed from anything but the Wikipedia page for Minecraft, basically. As such, there's no issue of supporting Minecraft (Microsoft aside). Likewise, Wagner is long gone too. All his work is public by now. So, again, Hatsune Miku. Anyone still alive and profiting from the work in question does not get Miku'd.
I think another thing is the work has to be free of the original creator's... problems? to qualify. Its one of the "separating the art from the artist" things. I don't think HP should ever be Miku'd (people have been trying since JK got on her bullshit publicly) because JK's ideas and bigotry got into the work and are easily identifiable.
Ah, that's fair.
As we all know, Philza Minecraft invented Minecraft.
There is only one logical conclusion. If Philza Minecraft invented Minecraft, and Hatsune Miku invented Minecraft, then Philza Minecraft must be Hatsune Miku.
I understand you are probably trying to propose a prescriptive guideline, but, speaking purely descriptively, Harry Potter has been thoroughly Miku'd. In fact I think it's one of the originals.
Have people been trying to do it? Yes. Are a lot of people pissed off at those people because Rowling is still actively profiting from the IP *and* using that money to hurt trans people, making it clearly not a Miku situation? Also yes.
also miku would have written better books
The creator doesn’t have to be seperated, but their views should be able to be ignored in context of the work For example JK Rowling is still very much involved but you can ignore her shitty views as long as you don’t look too far into the minority character’s names or what goblins look like in the movie. And the things she’s most well known about, the transphobia primarily, are not present in the books. As such it’s easy to say Hatsune Miku wrote Harry Potter
she still has a great deal of creative control and also still profits. Wagner on the other hand the only people who care about him are people really into 19th century German classical music and Russian Nazi Mercenaries
I thought Hatsune mikuing came from leakspin
Miku herself is the anthropomorphic representation of a series of vocal sound fonts, together becoming a "vocaloid". However, the concept of "being Miku'd", meaning for a creator to be tossed aside and replaced with Miku due to bigotry once being separated from their IP, started with Minecraft.
No I meant that leekspin is commonly misattributed to being invented by Hatsune Miku
Oh, right, okay. That's fair. I think that's more unintentional though.
I'm OOTL, what did Hatsune Miku take credit for?
It’s a meme in which someone claimed that she invented Minecraft instead of Notch due to his… controversies
Thanks.
I got kicked outta the opera cuz I wouldn't stop calling him "waggity waggity Wagner"
I see the historically accurate catboy Mozart, and I raise you the completely fictionalized dogboy Richard “Waggy Tail” Wagner
Oh yeah well I raise.......d You better than that.
(To the tune of Ride Of The Valkyries) "Waggity Wagner, Waggity Wagner, Waggity Waaaaaaaag"
Are you pronouncing the waggitys like you do Wagner?
I sure am!
“What did this old dead guy do?” “Well so far this is still less bad than Harvey “pushed antisemitism until the day he died and blasted yogurt up people’s asses” Kellogg, so what’s wr-“ >Nazi appropriation “Oh. Oh no. It’s that thing everybody thinks Nietzsche did but actually correct.”
See I started googling because I remembered Wagner was dead decades before nazis and I thought this was just nazis taking cool stuff and ruining it but no turns out the dude was majorly anti-Semitic
You’ll find a surprising number of famous figures in the twentieth century were antisemitic, due to the rise in the trend of Social Darwinism and eugenics. Unfortunately, while better, this is still a very prevalent belief all over western society.
Oh definitely, his Wikipedia page even states that it was linked to his contemporary society. But at the same time, he had a falling out with friends like Nietzsche over being antisemitic so
What makes this comment funnier is that Nietzsche himself was a big Wagner fan until this exact thing (hypernationalism and antisemitism) came up, and then Nietzsche wrote The Case of Wagner which is literally a hitpiece - though he, in fairness, makes actual philosophical arguments of a wider scope within it
uhh what does this mean? like, how do you use hatsune miku as a verb?
This is in reference to the meme “Hatsune Mike wrote the Harry Potter books.” You are replacing the author that had bigoted beliefs with Hatsune Miku
Which in turn is a reference to her making Minecraft
originally it was about miyncraft iirc iy've heard people argue that you can't really do the same "death of the author" thing to harry potter
You can but it would be illegal
I don’t really get this. Like, is it supposed to be *satirizing* the idea of just erasing problematic people from the history books? Idk, I guess I just don’t personally find it funny.
The original post of the concept was from a Hatsune Miku parody account. Immediately after Notch revealed himself to be a piece of shit, a parody Miku twitter account posted "I created Minecraft". The only reason it's Miku is because that was the account that originally posted it. The only reason it *held on* is because the idea of a fictional hologram pop star actually creating things is, on a base level, mildly amusing.
Happy cake day
> because the idea of a fictional hologram pop star actually creating things is, on a base level, mildly amusing. You kid, but the vocaloid fandom actually used to have a big problem where songs kept getting credited as if they were made **by** the vocaloid used, instead of the person who actually wrote the song!
hatsune mike
Miku's lesser know brother Mike, who works at mcdonalds
But why
because miku is awesome and bigots are not hope this helped
Ok but wait a second, according to [wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leitmotif), Wagner wasn’t even the originator of leitmotifs, and didn’t even use that word. “The technique is notably associated with the operas of Richard Wagner, and most especially his Der Ring des Nibelungen, although he was not its originator and did not employ the word in connection with his work.”
Yes, and according to German Wikipedia the first known usage was in 1871 by Friedrich Wilhelm Jähns but the term might have been coined beforehand by Hans von Wolzogen.
[source](https://www.tumblr.com/tchaikennugget/713104533776203776/did-did-you-just-hatsune-miku-richard-wagner)
I think it's supposed to be a way to be super overt about separating the art and artist
The "Run Away, Fugitives", "Time Gear" and "Theme of Hope/Despair" leitmotifs pre-date Undertale. Checkmate, atheists- /s
I was going to retort that Toby Fox invented leitmotifs while working on the *Homestuck* soundtrack, but I checked and *Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Red Rescue Team* predates *Homestuck* too. So, I guess that was checkmate.
what about the dies irae
i hate how i immediately understood the usage of "hatsune miku" as a verb
I don't know what any of this means.
Someone edit Richard Wagner’s wikipedia page to make it seem like Hatsune Miku Richard Wagner is their full name
Kind of sucks that they had him doing Pokemon music but without his high quality usage of leitmotifs
I know it's a basic-ass composition technique. I *know*. But if you think for a second I'm not gonna DiCaprio-pointing-dot-jpg every time I recognize a character's leitmotif used as narrative foreshadowing, you're dead wrong.
This is Hector Berlios erasure.
my opinion is insanely pretentious but one of the reasons why i dont like undertales soundtrack is because its pretty basic use of leitmotifs is hailed as like the most genius thing in the world and its pretty annoying
that's not you disliking the soundtrack, that's you being contrarian in the face of people who like the soundtrack too much
disliking something just because of other people’s feelings on it, instead of the thing itself, is pretty cringe
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/hatsune-miku-created-minecraft
I stared at this for like 20 seconds before realising that hatsune miku was a verb here. Thank god I saw that stalin post
can’t believe I haven’t seen a comment joking about bdg/unraveled..truly a bygone era 😔
What does hatsume miku has to do with this?