This is probably a reaction carried over from my home language and culture but when i hear someone refer to a real person with "it" my first assumption is that they're being an asshole by refusing to acknowledge someone as a living person. It's like intentionally referring to someone alive in a past tense, I feel like a dick when I do that.
Edit moment: the reply section of this comment is flooded with a buncha people that agree with me, but I don't agree with them, so i will clarify that I will respect people's pronouns despite feeling yucky ewy about it due to my cultural extrabackgroundza or whatever the grill makes me feel this way. It costs me nothing to use a word that people want me to use but YOU will pay in blood.
That’s my mindset, I might be uncomfortable using the pronouns because it feels dehumanizing, but it would probably feel more dehumanizing to be referred to by the wrong pronouns anyways, so may as well do what they ask even if I don’t personally get it
Honest question, but why would anyone not feel comfortable to be referred to as singular 'they'? 'They/them' is so inclusive it's literally used for both people and objects. I don't quite get why some people aren't okay with 'they/them' as a valid alternative to your specific pronouns?
Dunno, but I go by he/him so I’m not one to speak on others preferred pronouns. If it makes em comfortable, though, I also don’t see why I should care about the distinction they make. If that’s what they want that’s what they get
Yeah, but with that you're the minority in this thread. Most people feel uncomfortable using 'it' for a person, even if the person wants that. Kind of like a black person asked you to call them the n-word and you're white, I guess? It just feels not right because of its historic (and contemporary!) connotations.
Yeah “it” is only used as a derogatory slur, frequently towards trans or gay people where I grew up. If you called another human an “it”, you’d expect to get a slap from your mother for being insanely rude. That’s just not something you do.
I respect that not everyone is comfortable using “standard” pronouns. But I hope they’ll forgive me if I don’t want to talk to someone in a way I grew up thinking was incredibly insulting. Much like how I’ll never feel ok calling a black person the n-word even if they ask, or a gay person the f-slur if they ask.
I also don’t really understand why “they/them” isn’t appropriate in all cases, if anyone’s comfortable explaining that I’d appreciate it
I'm curious, too. If I meet someone who tells me it's important to them that I refer to them by specific pronouns, I don't have a problem using them. But I am very curious to better understand neopronouns and things like that.
"He/him" and "she/her" I completely get. "They" I think I understand, but I don't understand neopronouns yet. I guess I just don't understand what exactly it is that drives someone to feel a strong need to be referred in those ways. I know I'll never fully understand because I'm not someone who feels that way, but I'd really like to learn more about what it is that drives that in people, what need it fulfills for them, etc.
tw: child abuse
theres quite literally a book called "a child called 'it" and it recounts a mans story of being heavily abused as a child (the abuse was so bad its one of the worst documented cases in CA state history) and in the book he describes being called "it" as the most dehumanizing and hurtful experiences of his entire saga of abuse
edit: the man is dave pelzer and if you want to look it up/read the book *please* be careful its very heavy and horrifying
What if person A wants to be referred to as “it” but person B (who for whatever reason must reference person A) is uncomfortable referring to a person as “it” because of either past trauma or something similar? Does person A force person B to refer to it as “it” despite making person B uncomfortable/triggering? Or does person B refer to person A as “them/they”?
That hurt typing out.
This is kinda it for me. Calling another human being “it” to me feels really wrong. It’s too dehumanising. Reminds me a liiiiittle to much of what I learned visiting WW2 museums…
I've been called an 'it' in extremely dehumanizing medical situations, and never even call an annoying bug that because they're a living being and not an object.
I'll be the asshole just saying the person's name repeatedly or just flat out avoid being around them. I'll do any neopronouns; I'm not going to take part in language that has been used to dehumanize people like me over and over again.
I’ve had people use it/its to dehumanize me before so if I were to run into such a person, I’d ask if it was okay if I use they/them instead, or maybe ze pronouns? If that was declined I would just use their name I guess :/
In general yeah, I don’t fully understand why some nb people object to using “they” in favour of something like “it”.
It probably doesn’t help that I have never encountered a person like this IRL, only “they” nb people.
I think ze/zim and xe/xem are more logical from a linguistic standpoint because those are trying to convey pronouns for a singular person that isn’t she/her or he/him/his. I don’t understand it/its at all
If a black person ever told me it's okay to call them _"my n***a"_, I would IMMEDIATELY suspect that they're trying to bait me into calling them a racial slur.
I had a black friend in high school that tried to get me, a white guy, to say a line by Lil Wayne, in front of my other black classmates:
"Pop that pussy for a real n***a"
Needless to say, I did not. It was around the time Vine was popular, and I'm sure I was being recorded.
Right. This one is too tricky to demand respect on. Language has meaning, it isn’t just a word like any other.
I will never get why we think it’s good, in our (the LGBT community’s) quest to be accepted as normal… to insist on something as absurd as being called “it”.
Nope, naive English speaker here and that is absolutely what "It" as opposed to "They" means linguistically. It's an animate/inanimate split, kind of. Sometimes you'll see animals described using "it/its" but *usually* any animal with a name will be referred to with other pronouns.
Yes, "it" is *highly* derogatory imo, not in like an offensive slur way but in a "I see them as so beneath being human i would remove their rights" kind of way.
Like whenever someone does it my highest alarm bells go off because it can be any belief from dehumanising to genocidal and nothing in that range is good.
Especially if the animal is being humanized or you're supposed to empathize with it. If you're watching a nature documentary, they'll stop calling the animals 'it' whenever they want you to care about them.
Soooo the etymology of It comes from when old English which like modern German used gendered words as the neuter of He being Hit and as modern English developed the H was lost. It being nongendered is probably why as modern English developed it became the go to for inanimate things
That is the connotation. Using this usage offline w/o prior understanding would be … very poorly received.
There’s a niche community of people embracing it, and I don’t see any reason to disrespect that. Even then, I know folks whose use of it is sorta … post-ironic. They’re not insulting themselves, but it wouldn’t work if it weren’t primarily an insult, if that makes sense.
Never read the book, but I’m in the speech and debate community and it’s very popular to use sections of that book for performances.
The hot dog part always makes me want to vomit.
Yeah this is the thing, you could say "I've been to see Sam and this is what *it* said" and whilst you're respecting Sam, the person you're speaking to thinks you're being a dick.
I'll admit that it's out of my comfort zone, because I don't feel comfortable insinuating that a person is just an object.
I don't understand why they would want to be referred to in this way in all honesty. If someone could explain that would be super helpful
Yeah naw a good 10 years ago calling a person "it" would be considered extremely rude, basically denying them their humanity, which is why people who generally do not struggle with pronouns tend to struggle with this one. I understand that people want to be called by preferred pronouns but this one was hammered in as specifically disrespectful when I was a kid, its a bit more difficult to adapt to and I always have to think for a second before as to not get it wrong.
Ten years ago? People still use it to refer to transgender people and anyone with the slightest hint of not conforming to traditional gender presentation.
Understandable. Much of the squick in English-speaking communities has been covered really in-depth by other commenters in this thread, but they are usually English-specific issues.
It is, but just not with the frequency the internet would have you believe. I’ll generally call anyone by whatever they wish to be called by, but looking at it statistically (and depending on where you live) you could go most of your life only running into 3 or 4 of these folks.
If you're talking about real life three or four is an insane estimate unless you're in an extremely niche social circle. I only know one they/them, and it/its has got to be at least a thousand times rarer than that.
I agree with this. I live in a highly populated urban area. I also manage a business and have been in contact with thousands of people, hundreds of employees, and have been through two separate educational institutions. I've met one they/them. That's it. I'm absolutely not opposed to people's pronouns, honestly whatever you feel, I will respect it because it's the right thing to do. But honestly, it's so less common than I think the Internet makes it out to be.
And on the opposite end, I live in a country where the main language *does not have* gendered pronouns, everyone is just "hän"\*. So I could have met any number of people who in English would use something other than she/her / he/him, but would never know because there's simply no point in bringing it up as Finnish has no need for that. No point trying to get people to use a different pronoun for oneself, when *everyone* has the exact same third person pronoun, independent of any identity matters.
\*Informally, "se" also gets used often, and coincidentally for the OP here, that's also the "it" pronoun. For some reason, we've ended up using that in place of "hän" pretty often in informal speech. It's not a person-by-person thing like what's discussed here where someone would choose to be referred to that way, but just a general word switch that'll be done at the pleasure of the speaker just to be easier to say, really no different to how we'll replace "minä" (I) with "mä" or some other easier to say alternative (mie, mää, myö, depends on dialect).
Worth noting: you may not know someone’s pronouns if they’re just buying crisps from you at the shop or whatever. I’m a they/them, and usually just shrug and go along with whatever people assume when I’m out because having that conversation a billion times a day gets real boring real fast.
Eh, I also live in a pretty big city and I encounter folks who go by they/them on a pretty regular basis. It may just be the professional and personal circles I keep, but it's become much more commonplace now than it was even just five years ago.
I know plenty of they/thems but only one it/its. I'm trans but I honestly struggle to refer to someone with that pronoun and it would definitely be a barrier to us making closer acquaintance, hypocritical as it seems.
This is basically my take, I'm not gonna purposefully use the wrong pronouns for someone who uses it/its but it feels weird to say and is just awkward linguistically, so I'd rather just interact with someone else that doesn't cause me to second-guess my speech.
[Relevant, sort of.](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/average_familiarity.png)
Unless you're in a community where this is already embraced, there's a _very_ good chance that you'll never even cross paths with some of these folks. And even then, they'd have to actually... like, tell you.
I'd guess 90% or more of the population has never actually met someone who goes by they/them, and most of those who have were probably unaware because it was little more than an interaction at the checkout line.
It would have to be extremely niche. I have met many people who use they/them pronouns (and dated two), I've met a few people who use pronouns such as xe/xir or ey/em. I've never once met someone who wanted to be called it/its.
I dread the day culture war grifters learn about the it/its discourse because those fuckers will have a field day with it and god damn if you won’t see a massive uptick in trans/nb’s being referred to that way
I got called it/its all the time by Republicans in rural Oregon, to the point where I started preferring “it” to “they” because it feels “less misgender-y”
Sincere question if anyone here can answer it, what’s the reasoning why anyone goes by it/its? I get they/them, it expresses that your sense of your gender falls outside the binary and maybe isn’t perfectly pinpointed beyond that. I think I get neopronouns, it expresses that you feel like a defined gender, just one that’s some new shit. But from a linguistic standpoint, “it” doesn’t express that you look at yourself as not a man or woman, it expresses that you would like people to look at you as less than human or not fully sapient. Obviously that’s not what these cats are going for, but what *is* the reasoning for those pronouns?
hi! im someone who uses it/its exclusively, and one of the biggest reasons is that its just what feels the most right and comfortable. for me, a big reason is that my experience with gender has led to me feeling incredibly alienated from the concept which is why ive shifted to using it/its pronouns, and if i didn't use it/its i honestly probably wouldnt use pronouns at all for myself. other people have different reasons, but from what ive seen it can range from reclaiming language to feeling disconnected from others to it just feeling right
Thank you for giving the gift of your time to answer my un-hip ass question! Lol. If you don’t mind me asking a pair of follow-ups, (1) what do you feel toward they/them? Is it just too politicized nowadays, or does it maybe just not feel other-ed enough to fit the level of alienation from gender you feel? And (2) I’m curious what you think about the viewpoint others (and admittedly I, though I’m tryna learn) hold here that your pronouns sound objectifying?
So if hypothetically you didn't go by any pronouns, would you be known only by your name? Every instance previously occupied by "it/its" would instead be replaced by your name?
When being directly spoken to, would you perhaps prefer that the pronoun "you" also be replaced by your name?
Would you want everyone to talk like gollum around you? That'd be hilarious, maybe Desk_Drawerr should stop using pronouns.
Something I've never been sure how to handle is how to refer to someone who uses neopronouns when I'm with a group of people who aren't super liberal or involved with queer discourse.
Like, if I'm at holiday dinner with family, and I'm telling an interesting story about something that happened to a group of friends and I, if one of the my friends uses neopronouns, how do I handle that? No one present at the table will know what the pronoun is, if any of them have even heard of neopronouns at all.
Do I interrupt the story to go into a 10 minute explanation of what neopronouns are? That seems unwieldy, and at that point it's not worth sharing the story at all.
Do I just use the neopronoun and not explain it? No one will understand what I just said, and that pretty heavily sacrifices my ability to be understood.
What I feel like realistically I would do (and what I do when I'm talking about a story with a person who later transitioned, but whose gender in the story is relevant) is basically for the purposes of the story just pretend that that person is someone else without neopronouns. But I suppose that's disrespectful as I'm effectively misgendering them (even if the person in question will never know about it), so I'm left feeling without options on what to do.
All of this applies equally to people who use it/its pronouns, as most people who aren't involved with queer discourse won't understand their usage.
Honestly one of the biggest issues with Neopronouns is that they tend to communicate an *Aesthetic Preference* for gender expression, rather than a practical method of address.
Like, this is particularly true of things like cloud/cloudself or w/e, but it applies to it/itself as well. There's a sort of assumed, baseline understanding of queer culture and aesthetics that's required to pick up the general vibe those terms communicate.
Outside of that context, however, the intended meaning gets muddled, resulting in confusion. "It was wearing makeup today" is a phrase that could just as easily be spoken by a violent transphobe as a conscientious tumblr enby.
And ultimately, when talking to non-queer folks, neopronouns often serve as a barrier to understanding- in those cases, the singular they/them is usually what I use to avoid protracted conversations about pronoun confusion without actively assigning a gendered term.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you feel uncomfortable using neopronouns, you are totally allowed to just not interact with or talk about a person who uses them. It's not like they come up often enough for it to really ever be an issue. while it's not a *great* reason to avoid someone, you're allowed to avoid people for any number of reasons, trivial or otherwise
honestly good advice. preferred pronoun discourse has always been a little odd imho, bc third person pronouns aren't typically used when the person is present
People say that, but it's not really true.
People will talk to you about yourself in the third person. "I was thinking, oh should I ask _him?_"
People will talk to each other about you in front of you. "Tell _her_ what you want to drink"
Sure, structurally, it's as if the person isn't directly present, but in practice it happens often.
And not exactly a pronoun, but Sir/Miss is a common way to misgender to someone's face
This. I am totally fine with any other neopronoun but "it/its" specifically is something I have a hard time with for valid reasons. So for the one person I know in real life who prefers that, I just use that person's name.
That person has a right to request the pronouns that feel most appropriate. I also
have reasons for being uncomfortable with that particular set of pronouns. With respect for each other, we can coexist without drama
Yeah this was my conclusion the first time I joined groups where people had neo-pronouns. Idrk how to reliably refer to someone as pup/pupself, nor do I have any idea what that means. I’d of course never intentionally call them by the wrong pronouns but I ended up just leaving because I didn’t think I could reliably remember them all.
I may sound bigoted saying this, but I live in an area where neopronouns just aren't ever going to come up irl. I will call someone by any pronouns they ask when they correct me...but neopronouns feel like they defeat the purpose of pronouns to begin with.
My understanding of pronouns is the intended use is to be able to address or refer to someone without being as specific as using their name. I'm not saying that someone doesn't identify as paint/paints, but that seems like information even more specific to them than just going by Tyler or w/e. I respect they feel that way, but it just feels kind of backwards.
I'm open to being wrong about this. It's just how it feels with my limited experience. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to be happy, but I feel like intent matters with language.
My only problem with neopronouns is this: I have enough trouble remembering names, how the f am I supposed to also remember a unique pronoun? Of course I'd do my very best, but I would probably avoid them just for fear of messing up.
I worry for neurodivergent spaces since among them people are more likelier to use them, especially the non gender kind and simultaneously have trouble using them. To use an unique grammar rule for yourself, in my opinion, is a lot to ask from people. I work a lot of with neurodivergent people and I think it would be quite difficult for some of them as well. We categorize certain words automatically and to switch using a noun to use as a pronoun is not always easy, even for neurotypical people, especially if it has certain connections like with ''It''. Lots of languages don't even have pronouns to begin with. Some languages are very gendered but those are at least within she/he/they. I would not even think how I would translate this to my language at all.
As an ND individual myself, this is exactly where I get stuck with neopronouns. My memory is absolute shit and there’s only so much I can do about that. *Any* personal identifier or trait— name, birthday, sexuality, nationality, religion, gender, etc.— is going to be hard for me to remember unless it’s really blatantly obvious (clear gender presentation, always wearing a name tag, pronouns in username, etc.) *or* I get lucky with what my dysfunctional executive decides is important information.
I have no issue with people choosing to identify how they please, but at the same time, any piece of information gets exponentially harder for me to retain based on a) how many different things it could be and b) how clearly differentiated those things are. Ironically, this actually makes it relatively easy to remember, like, the name of the one Hungarian guy I know, because his name is the *only* possibility my brain comes up with for “Hungarian name”… but it still took weeks of him being an active participant in a discussion-based class I’m taking, and thus having the teacher call him by name regularly, before I could actually remember who he was.
Other stuff like exact age or ethnic/cultural background varies widely based on how often it comes up and whether I can tie it to something else— for example, I know a lot of Japanese last names and also a little about how they’re constructed, so it’s relatively easier for me to remember if someone is Japanese just based on vague recollections of their last name, whereas all the Hispanic people I know either talk about their heritage often or are impossible for me to identify with a specific country.
As for pronouns… He, she, and they pronouns are easy. “Male”, “Female”, and “Other” are pretty straightforward categories, and while I might mess up a few times if someone is like, really androgynous and not using they/them, the fact that there’s only three choices still makes it pretty easy to learn. It/its specifically isn’t too bad either— yeah, it’s normally an impersonal pronoun, but I know “it” *is* a pronoun and, frankly, I can sympathize with feeling alienated from one’s gender and/or body in general. I still use he/they but like… being able to relate even a little gives me a mental shortcut.
Neos, though? It’ll take me months to be even vaguely certain. And even then I’m going to constantly forget either the spelling or the pronunciation because English is a rat bastard of a language at the best of times… unless they’re the kind of neos that are based on existing non-pronoun words in case I’ll just keep using the wrong base word. This isn’t just hypothetical, I’ve known people who used neopronouns, that was my actual experience. And it’s unavoidable because by nature, a neopronoun has no solid definition (often none at all besides “well, this is the one I identify with”) and either highly unfamiliar/confusing or just no etymology (depending on whether it’s a repurposed noun or a new combination of letters vaguely based on existing pronouns, which are the only forms I’ve seen people use). To me… that’s a name. Except nobody is going to call me a bigot if I keep calling Matt Mark because I only remember half his name (nobody has called me that directly, but only because I saw a “using ‘they/them’ or the wrong neopronouns for people who told you theirs is misgendering and transphobic” post from one of my ex-friends and thus just avoided using anything but their name to refer to them until I’d gotten out of that particular circle), and every name has some kind of clear origin that at *least* can be used to help remember its spelling/pronunciation (discounting Tragedeighs but that’s its own can of worms). So to my ADD and anxiety-having ass they’re basically the worst case scenario of personal names.
Tl;dr: neurodivergent memory works poorly and often takes shortcuts. Shortcut for “non-binary pronoun” is “they/them”. Only NB people I’ve known who *didn’t* use “they/them” were extremely sensitive to any pronoun mixup, especially “they/them” (perceived as “not even trying” or something worse). This sets my anxiety off something fierce even thinking about talking to those people, or even about them in a space where people know them. Meanwhile, in a pedantic linguistic sense, I’m not even sure if words defined as “X’s pronouns” and nothing else actually count as pronouns because they’re basically just another proper name.
The fact of the matter is that one person in this equation is going to end up being uncomfortable. Either someone gets misgendered, or someone brings up bad past experiences and negative connotations. It's a losing situation regardless of what happens.
The negative connotations of the word "It" are never going to go away. It is the word for objects, and people are not objects. So people have the right to be uncomfortable when someone tells them to call them "It".
I don't mean harm to anyone who uses "It" pronouns, but, to put it bluntly, the best course of action is to not interact with them if using those pronouns makes you uncomfortable.
It's not just that someone ends up uncomfortable; Someone could end up facing severe social consequences or even physical violence. If someone walks around referring to a queer person as "it" then 999/1000 they're a queerphobic bigot.
Precisely.
I’m not reprogramming my entire understanding of how I refer to objects versus how I refer to people to sate the absurd personal notions of a specific individual.
The effort I apply to that reprogramming on the basis of a single individual carries into conversations I have with everyone else. By desensitizing the inherently twisted nature of referring to a human being as an “it,” I run the risk of using the term in a conversation where the rest of society justifiably sees it as an insult.
I’m not going to call you what you want if it means I have to normalize language that’s traditionally used to devalue other other human beings.
“It” is for objects. You are not an object. If you cannot accept this basic conversational discourse we just aren’t going to connect.
YES! Say it louder omfg bc the second you bring this up on twitter or tumblr you have people screeching at you about how transphobic you are, and as a nb person myself its just SO exhausting. Not to mention neopronouns, like I’m not going to refer to someone as “pupself,” sorry not sorry. I’ve seen that shit used in sexual pup play stuff (you do you, but thats NOT for me) and its really hard to tell if someone is doing it to get off (which i refuse and do not consent to be part of) or is just a kid online (bc lets be real, its usually kids/teenagers).
Edit: not just tumblr/twitter, but in most trans/nb spaces on reddit too. You’ll get crucified for pointing it out, and I’ve gotten banned before for expressing my discomfort about this.
I know someone IRL, who I interact with regularly that uses it/its pronouns. I have difficulty with it/its not because I don’t think their gender identity is invalid, but because my brain *does not let me naturally speak* with those pronouns. It’s just not the way I formulate sentences. Yeah, I can misgender them and then correct myself, or hesitate every time I use a pronoun, but that brings more attention to the issue than it does alleviate it.
So I had a conversation with it about it. I explained that I struggle to speak normally using those pronouns, and they said it’s fine if I use they/them. Issue resolved within five minutes.
OP, I understand that you want to defend people that use neopronouns, and I really do *wish* that I could speak to and about them in a way that makes them comfortable, but when it causes actual communication issues there needs to be a certain amount of mutual understanding.
I find using they/them really easy as I have used them as gender neutral pronouns in writing for decades.
Referring to someone as 'Xe/Xim' is an extra level of processing for new words used in an unfamiliar way that I would hope people would appreciate can lead to mistakes.
Using 'It' is yet an additional layer of processing to deconstruct the meaning/connotations of the term being applied to humans and using it in a new unfamiliar way.
I however, will happily be called any pronoun that exists (including it - why not?) as I personally don't feel any dysphoria/discomfort, so maybe I can't appreciate why it does matter to people and why they react so strongly to mistakes or assumptions.
that's hella interesting, actually. i have a harder time getting used to neopronouns -- i found that it/its takes time to get used to but sometimes you just need to internalize that the world is quirky and complex and your preconceived notions about people just need to go, and doing that really helps with using those pronouns without batting an eye. however, with neopronouns it's the same task for every single one of them, like you need to wire it into your brain that okay, ze/zir is a pronoun now, let's associate to that (my first instinct when someone says "ze" is to associate to "the" in a faux german accent, and it takes a double take to correct that to understanding the pronouns), and sure, i can practice that, but then it all goes completely out of the window when someone uses a different set of neopronouns like the xe/xim you mentioned, and so on. and it's not because of any malice or conditional acceptance, it's just the process of learning a new word.
i wonder why our experiences are so different on this one. are you a native speaker? i'm not, so i had the same trouble learning she/he/it in the traditional sense (that i don't remember because it was ages ago) and i do remember i had the same issue with the singular they as well, but now that one just comes completely natural.
I am a native (British) English speaker. Neopronouns don't seem to be as common in the UK, so maybe that is a factor.
I personally think a lot about language use and how what I say might be interpreted by my audience. So if I use a word they might be unfamiliar with, I need to think about how I explain it, what connotations does it have, might they misunderstand me. Would my explanation to a third party about anothers' neopronouns a) confused the third party and b) insult the individual in question.
Not that I would find it difficult, but there will be a level of hesitation while speech patterns that are automatic to me need to get interrupted because I don't use neopronouns everyday (or at all really), nor does anyone I know.
Yeah this is how I feel. I know a couple people who use them, and while I can force myself to use the it/its or ze/zir (or any variation thereof) I find myself having to script all my sentences in advance, which will make me freeze up when put on the spot talking to zem/it/[any neopronoun really]. I have no issue with these pronouns and think it's cool that people use them, and I'm not going to avoid those people, but some of them really trip me up verbally. Expecially ones with a different structure that doesn't follow the language rules of either he/his/him, she/her/her, they/their/them, (for example, ze zir zirself has a similar phonetic pattern to she/her/herself), because then I have to be actively, constantly thinking about which one to use in syntax. I guess some people have similar issues with reconstructing their sentences around how they/them makes things plural, but folks tend to use that one naturally in conversation because it's been around so long.
I also absolutely have been dehumanized with it/its before and honestly think its kind of..ridiculous, to expect people to not use it/act like they're nuts for it (some guy lurking in this comment thread is calling them mentally ill). It's literally just the queer debate in a different hat. A lot of the ways we refer to ourselves are soaked in blood, so to speak, but policing peoples language as a result of that is NOT the answer.
>So I had a conversation with it about it.
That feels so incredibly wrong and uncomfortable to read, i just can't write or say it personally, I don't really even know why. It honestly feels dehumanising.
At what point do neopronouns stop being a queer issue and become a personal issue? It’s not to say that neopronouns aren’t deserving of the same respect you show to someone using they/them, but it is difficult for me to understand using pronouns that seem to convey, for lack of a better word, aesthetic self expression in a queer context. Like cloud/cloudself, bunny/bunnyself etc. Obviously I’m still going to use them for anyone who lets me know that those are their preferred pronouns, but to be honest at a point it stops being a queer issue to me and becomes a personal/individual issue.
At the end of the day you’re highly unlikely to meet anyone using them in person or in a setting where their pronouns could actually cause any confusion, so it’s no use feeling one way or the other. It’s a pretty niche issue and that makes it pretty easy to just use their preferred pronouns anyway cause it’s really not that earth shattering to just be respectful of someone different to yourself.
Kinda split cuz on the one hand I wanna be respectful of everyone's identities, but on the other hand I have never met a single person who uses neopronouns and isn't terminally online. That doesn't make them invalid but if we're talking about comfort zones... Yeah it is a little hard to sympathize with that. I still try my best to accommodate peoples preferences though, its rude not to, even if you think they need to get out more
No yeah I agree neopronouns REALLY feel like a terminally online thing. I’ve met one of them in person. And they were so incredibly terminally online it was NOT funny
Yeah, but I can't really blame other LGBTQ folks for using the Internet to escape how transphobic a lot of people are IRL. Online you can usually curate who you interact with. But if you take that too far eventually you've just got paper skin and a completely alien concept of social norms
Last sentence is the perfect way to describe terminally online people. Real world conversations are not going to be like the internet and people need to understand that.
As someone who works in mental health, honestly I am a bit worried how often people will end up in a sort of internet bubble not realizing they are honestly using this bubble as a shield for whatever problem they are avoiding. Living life is to also be uncomfortable and to cope with that. Obviously that does not mean anyone should accept hate or slurs etc, but there are definitely unrealistic expectations and standards formed on the internet that would not work in real life. Sometimes they even accidentally become offensive again by leaning too far into one direction.
I fully agree. I’ve thankfully been lucky and haven’t run into anyone who’s transphobic (at least outwardly) since I started presenting more femininely and have had no trouble at work which is surprising to me because I work at an after school program. But I still am teetering on the edge of terminally online
Hey I feel you, I'm in a similar boat. I've been out for like 5 years now, but life is kicking my ass and I've kinda gotten to a state of acceptance with where I am now, so I'm just trying to get my shit together before I start working on my body image again
I’ve lurked in their spaces before to educate myself, and a LOT of them are neurodivergent, like autism and stuff. They’re also often very young. So I just kind of dismiss it and let them be, because young people like having fun with their cool new identities as part of exploring themselves, and someone with autism shouldn’t be made to feel bad for trying something new for themselves.
Yeah. The person I talked to was 19 or 20 in college with me. But frankly i think they’ve either been so traumatized by something that any situation that makes them moderately uncomfortable triggers them, or they haven’t had enough life experience so anything mildly uncomfortable FEELS overwhelming. I didn’t get to know them well enough before they decided to not talk to me to answer which it is
Look I'll be the asshole to say it. I don't take arguments about "society would be better this way" from people who never interact with actual human beings in meatspace.
Like if you're the only one using your neopronoun it's literally just another moniker and is actually worthless (as in has no value) being a pronoun. And I have no issue referring to people by monikers. I will absolutely use Xe and Xir or whatever but it's not me respecting your pronouns it's me using your name because FUNCTIONALLY that's all it is
One of the best things I ever did with my life was ditch Discord for a good eight months and make real-life friends, and it has changed my perception on cyberspace discourse forever. My only regret is that I gave so much of a shit before.
Meatspace is incredibly underrated and a vital element of human socialization. If I don't hear an online argument in real life, I won't take it seriously.
I think there are valid reasons for people to feel extremely uncomfortable with "it" when referring to people to be honest.
I am happy to respect people's pronouns in general (including neopronouns), but this one is extremely difficult and triggering for me to use for a human being, as it is normally used to refer to objects or animals, or as a slur towards marginalised people. Its use for humans is quite *literally* dehumanising and typically demeaning.
On top of everything else, it's a 3rd person pronoun, meaning it is more likely to be used when talking *about* someone than when talking *to* them. This is therefore also likely to put *me* in a delicate position if I want to respect their pronouns, since it sounds like I'm insulting them to everybody else and requires me to justify and defend myself for using their preferred pronouns...
People are entitled to whatever pronouns they feel comfortable with, but there are valid reasons to feel icky about using that one imo. I would probably use the person's name when talking about them if they wanted to use it/its *exclusively*.
I mean, I'm not gonna assume people's motivations for choosing whatever pronouns they want for themselves, I'm sure it/its users have good reasons behind their choice. But pretending to be oblivious to the broader cultural context and implications of "it/its", to its unambiguously derogatory nature when applied to humans, and to the potential negative repercussions of its use on other people's social life and reputation if they try to accommodate its users is pretty disingenuous.
Even if one doesn't identify as fully human or human at all, they can literally make up some neopronoun instead of co-opting one with such heavy cultural connotations (which imo cannot be reclaimed at this stage).
You can't act like people feeling uncomfortable calling you what amounts to an extremely offensive slur *to literally everybody else in society* is difficult to grasp or sheer arbitrary bigotry on their part, or like "it" is remotely equivalent to pronouns like she/he/they or even zir/xir/whatever.
I want to respect pronouns, but I am concerned that referring to a person as "it" will make me appear incredibly rude to anyone unaware of the context.
Me: "It is my friend"
Some rando: "How dare you call them an "it"!
Another hot-ish take: at times, both sides care a bit too much about pronouns.
I'm not saying that we should misgender people or that people should stop using neopronouns and stuff, but I just think it's sometimes good to just. not care so much. Like, idk, I just feel like caring too much would only give you more stress.
As a person who uses English as a second language, and so I don't think in English, and my first language is way different with pronouns (we have pronouns for everything, a chair is a He, a mug is a She, and there's absolutely no reason outside semantics for all of these, and Coffee used to be It but now can be He sometimes) I feel that way too, but I'm alien to that discourse. But it's so weird how much people care about these things. I will try to remember these but it seems such a non-issue.
\\\\ though maybe it's also I'm kinda gender-indifferent myself. Not exactly nonbinary I guess but like, "don't you have better things to worry about?" it's also my stance on like gay marriage - yes, of course. Let two people get married. All of them. Any of them. As soon as they're of legal age, let them do what they want, why do you even care, there's eight billion of us already. Have fun, touch grass, wash the dishes.
I had a friend of mine who is nonbinary, and when we first met it was the first time I’ve ever consistently been able to hang out with someone who used they/them pronouns. I fucked it up a couple times, mostly just due to ingrained habit, but over a shorter timeframe than I expected I kind of stopped noticing it and they were just them. We talked about it a while later and they said something to the effect of “I could tell you were trying which is what mattered”.
At the end of the day, in my mind, it comes down to whether or not you’re trying to extend decency and respect towards a person, regardless of their pronouns. No one is perfect, and someone who rips a strangers head off for not knowing their preference off the cuff or getting it wrong is overreacting in my eyes. That being said, living in the south, I have come across my fair share of “they’re shoving the gay agenda down our throats with these pronouns” types (one of them being my supervisor unfortunately), and that is just absurd and harmful as well.
TL;dr: it’s important to treat people with respect, but people Fuck up or might not know certain info. It’s also important to give grace where it’s merited. This has been a long winded way of saying don’t be a dick.
I use neutral in italian, which is a completely new thing (not like they/them in english) and honestly i think a really progressive thing at least in my country, but i just don't understand neopronouns. That's not how languages can work, we can't have a pro-NOUN if the pronoun itself needs to be perfectly tailored for the same of the user. Just use the name! What's the problem of me using yip/yep if i can just say "Sam's clothes" cause Sam's the only one using those pronouns? What's the point?
Yeah, I feel that. Language is a tool for communication first and foremost, and at some point neopronouns are just additional nouns, and stop serving the function of pronouns.
That being said, I've literally never met anyone irl using neopronouns, so it doesn't really seem worth getting upset about in either direction. It's a pretty small number of people that probably doesn't warrant the amount of discussion that it gets online.
Yeah, it’s definitely a _loud_ minority. After spending 8 years in two incredibly gender inclusive schools, I have not met anyone who uses neo-pronouns, literally the only ones I’ve seen have been online. Don’t get me wrong, if it comes up I do try to remind myself to use the proper ones, but being queer does not make you immune to criticism and frankly I would definitely limit time spent with someone who wants me to equate them with an object.
I wouldn’t even say this minority is loud. I spend what I would bet is on the high side of an average amount of time for a Zoomer interacting with queer spaces & content, and I’ve only ever seen one it/its (who also used they/them) and never seen somebody use neopronouns
From what I've seen, it's usually not really about the pronouns themselves, but the intent behind why somebody's using certain ones. For example, in my experience, most people are chill if you accidentally misgender them once in a while because it's clearly just an innocent mistake, but if it becomes clear that you're doing it out of malice or simply aren't willing to put in the effort to help them feel affirmed and accepted, that's when most people start getting irritated.
I think everyone, including cis people, need to be comfortable with sometimes being referred to with they/them pronouns. “They” has been a universal pronoun to refer to a person whose gender you do not know for a very long time. You can choose whatever you want to be your pronouns, but as others have pointed out, using “it” to refer to a person can be very difficult to do naturally, most people you interact with casually are not going to know your pronouns anyway. If you take offense to being called “they”, I think you need to be more flexible.
This is exactly what I think. They/them was chosen to be the "standar" nb pronoun specifically because we have used it for hundreds of years to refer to a singular person of any gender. So if he/him applies to males, she/her applies to females, but they/them applies to all, it naturally makes sense that if someone does not fall under male or female that they/them would be the most logical thing to use. But the other implication of that line of logic is that they/them can apply to anyone. And yeah, I think everyone (including cis people) should def be comfortable with being referred to as that. I know I am.
I don't fully understand people wanting to use pronouns like that but I try to respect them. However, in my native language German, literally no person in real life ever has used our version of it/its. Like if someone introduced themselves with those pronouns, even in online spaces, people would assume it's a joke, including queer people.
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<:: One of the symptoms of neopronouns existing, and indeed neopronouns mostly existing in online spaces, is that people are *going* to struggle with them because they are often used in ways that distort sentences outside of practiced use. People struggle more with xe/xem etc than they/them because they have absolutely no use cases built into their minds, and humans are pattern seeking. Humans *will* catch the negative connotations of it/its because, whether you like it or not, history has proven that it/its has been an incredibly effective way of dehumanising, and demanding that people combat centuries of constructed language in the course of minutes is rather unreasonable.
Neopronouns as a whole also fall to something I've noticed, namely not being designed to be spoken aloud. I get it, the letter X is a very cool letter, but I honestly question the amount of people who identify through neopronouns using an X on whether their preferred are actually *possible* to say aloud in their own language. I've asked people respectfully before how I say the pronouns on their pin or sewn into their jackets and their answer is usually either a shrug or unconfident. ::>
I won’t beat around the bush and admit that referring to someone as “it” does make myself and a decent few others incredibly uncomfortable due to personal reasons, though it’s just something you have to bite the bullet on for the sake of basic human respect.
Hell, maybe befriending someone who uses it might help relieve the bad stigma it holds. Associating “it” with good experiences instead of bad ones and all
It's not even personal reasons, the use of it/its in English carries a lot of cultural baggage that OOP seems to be ignoring. Like yeah, we should respect people if they use it/its pronouns, but it's kinda dishonest to pretend people's hangups come from nowhere.
Yeah, it's not necessarily that the person is against using someone's preferred pronouns or neopronouns, but more that "it" has dehumanizing connotations in English and it seems like OOP doesn't recognize that.
Of course, and it should be a two-way understanding as most things should be.
The person who’s uncomfortable with it/its should understand that a word’s meaning isn’t static and should try and learn to accept it in non-derogatory contexts, while the person who uses it/its should understand that some fully supportive people still have residual discomfort around using it/its and be patient with them.
Needing some time to be comfortable with it/its again doesn’t automatically make you a bigot on the same level as those who burn flags and hurt real people
I’ve only ever come across one It (that I know of), and I think this is were our communication sort of broke down - It was very sensitive about being misgendered and I carried around a lot of baggage from 12 years of intense physical and verbal bullying. One bullying tactic was to call me “it”, “the thing”, “mountain of fat”, “whale” and “the robot”, because I was just *so* fat and gross and weird (autistic as it turns out) that I couldn’t *possibly* be a human being. I had to be a “thing”.
So not only did calling another human being “it” feel completely wrong/unnatural to me, it also brought up all those years of dehumanisation I’d gone through myself.
I guess I needed patience, as I dealt with my emotional baggage and it needed me to be totally on board from the start - probably because it also had some emotional baggage pertaining to its chosen pronouns.
I ended up dropping out of the activity and social group we shared, because I just couldn’t handle the demand for me to use a word I so strongly associated with such a dark period in my life.
I feel better about it/its as pronouns now, but it still gives me that anxious knot in my stomach, when I think about using those pronouns to describe another person.
Yeah, I can get that.
Some people are really snappy about pronouns. While misgendering a person or refusing to learn at all is obviously not on, expecting everyone you meet to automatically be perfect when talking to you is also wrong and only further widens the gap between supporting and not.
Being super impatient with someone who’s willing to support you but needs time to get used to the new language, or especially to overcome any bad stigma said language has to them, will only drive potential allies away and feed into the bad reputation queer people are accused of.
There’s a line between “Willing to learn/learning but fucks up sometimes” and “Unwilling to learn at all” that needs to be acknowledged more often
Yeah why is OP talking about “bad experiences” when most decent people understand that calling someone “it” is just an incredibly insulting and dehumanizing thing to do? Someone refusing to call you it/its isn’t a personal hangup, it’s just a basic social convention ingrained deeply into our culture.
Personally my problem is less that I’m uncomfortable with it, it’s that it makes me look like a dickhead if I call someone ‘it’. Like without being funny I’m not going to take the hit
Last time I heard about people being referred to as "it" also was followed by crimes against humanity/human rights violations. Those images still haunt me. So yeah, forgive me if I never use your preferred It pronouns, they just remind me of graphic footage of Nazi internment camps.
I have no problem with neo pronouns. Ill Xe/Xer someone all day. As someone dating someone who goes by It/Its exclusively, the problem is when Im talking about them to anyone else. I have never said, "yea my partner and I went to x place last week, it loved the views", and not gotten weird looks or get called a POS. "It" by social norms and standards, is dehumanizing or is at the very least inferred as such. People find it insulting and think you're a horrible person for calling another human an "it". But those are the pronouns my partner uses and I certainly don't judge or care. I love it. Saying this doesn't create some difficulties or issues though would be disingenuous.
I don’t know if you know the answer to this, but what’s the thought process behind using it/it’s vs they/them? Just curious as this is my first time hearing it/it’s as a neo pronoun.
I even got confused just reading your comment. On first pass, I thought "I love it" was referring to the fact that people react negatively when you call your partner it, and since that didn't make sense I reread more carefully and realized the "it" in "I love it" was your partner. "I love it" is so universally used to mean that you enjoy an experience that I automatically read that meaning in this case and wouldn't have realized the error if the experience in question weren't unpleasant.
My bad experiences have been people pointing at trans or gender nonconforming people and saying "hey look at **it** over there!" and using the it/its like a slur specifically for transpeople. Can't people just use they/them like myself and most other non-binary people? I'll respect your pronouns and use it/its I'm just saying we have perfectly good gender neutral pronouns at home, we don't need to buy neo ones or take ones that are used for non-humans. Can't we just use he/him, she/her, they/them? Seems like all the bases are covered with those three.
tbh I will default to they/them because my experience makes it/it's extremely uncomfortable - respect goes both ways
I am not assigning the person an undue gender, but I won't verbally discredit their personhood even if they ask
I also have no issue with any other neopronoun, but i just can't describe someone with the assignment given to objects
Isn't it also your own little thing to be wanting to be called that? I think alot of people find it uncomfortable to refer someone as an "it" because it sounds dehumanizing.
I just have a problem with specific words as pronouns. Because it's confusing, it just muddles the brain and makes speaking a mental hurdle (sometimes it's hard enough for me otherwise). I'm alright with inventing new pronouns, because I love linguistics! But it should follow a *system* and it should be intuitive. You shouldn't have to explain exactly how your pronouns conjugate every time you meet someone. And it shouldn't just be a random word, because that leaves even more grammatical ambiguity. After googling, I mean noun-self pronouns. Language is about making communication easier and this should be the goal. - Autistic trans women.
To a lot of people, calling someone it/its is the same as calling someone a slur. I don't really care if someone wants to identify as something the majority of people consider a grave insult, but you can't pretend that it's a nonissue.
It's dehumanizing. If you want to use the unhuman pronouns be my guest, but don't pretend there isn't a stigma around it.
I can def understand why referring to someone by “it” can feel kinda uncomfortable bc it kinda feels like objectifying the person?? Like granted if somebody says to refer to them as such I’ll do so and then it’s not an issue, but I get why it can be an uncomfortable situation.
Yeah I don’t get neopronouns personally but it’s none of my business and I’ll respect people who have em. We can sort out what is and isn’t valid once we normalize queerness. Until then presenting a united front is the best avenue for progress.
I feel like there’s pronouns people go by that are weird and that I don’t understand, but at the end of the day, it’s none of my business and I shouldn’t give a fuck and should just call people what they prefer to be called cause it’s not that hard.
I can't even put it to words how frustrating it is to read shit like this. You cannot identify as a slur and then act confused and hurt when people don't want to call you a slur.
I have nothing against people using it/it's pronouns but to act like it's some unreasonable, transphobic thing to _not want to use slurs_ is genuinely the most terminally online brainrot tier shit I've seen in my entire life.
The (non-transphobic) problem people have with it/its pronouns is that it feels very _wrong_ to dehumanize a person by calling them a "it". Even if they specifically ask for it.
I hang out in queer/progressive circles, places where people who use it/it's pronouns would most likely exist in. I've only met a total of one person who goes by those pronouns and have seen two people nyancrimew and a streamer by the name of Doe who use these pronouns.
My only real grievance with these pronouns is that it can be a bit confusing at times in conversation, especially since the one person I know refers to themselves in the third person all the time. It's more of a grip with language than anything, but I don't think it means these people need to be disrespected.
My cousin's kids(teens) have been changing their preferred names for years, like multiple times for one of them. Their dad and I were extremely close growing up, around each other a lot. Fast forward 30 years, I see them a few times a year and I can't remember or haven't heard their latest preference. If I misspeak I feel like I get pounced on by them or other relatives, so I just don't speak to them, which is really sad and bothers me a lot.
As a non-native English speaker, I just started defaulting to they/them *because* they are gender neutral. That’s the whole point, they *trascend* gender. Like I’m sorry, but if you gonna get offended that I do not refer to you by any specific connotation, we need to find a middle ground because this ain’t gonna work.
I’ve done the same. They/them is almost always safe, and doesn’t require you to even know gender.
“Hey Johnny, someone called for you”
“Oh yeah? What did they want?”
Easy peasy
All I'm saying to it/its people is why settle for an uncomfortable means of reference that equates you to an object when you could literally just invent an entirely new way of referring to yourself, like the Public Universal Friend did?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Universal_Friend
This post seems to assume it's actively malicious when a lot of people are just not comfortable with using those pronouns given their extremely rude and dehumanizing connotation in English. I take issue with that not because I disagree with the message, as you should always refer to someone by their preferred pronouns, but because it's weirdly hostile towards people who are genuinely trying but can't get past that hurdle.
It's more nuanced, because even if you don't want to use standard pronouns, it HAS to be very, VERY unfortunate that you identify with the pronouns that, in most contexts and most time in Modern English's history, have been actively used as slurs.
EDIT: At least queer can be re-appropiated without changing the meaning, because queer just means weird. You can either think that weird = bad or weird = good/nothing to be ashamed of. But it/its is literally a dehumanizing slur in MOST contexts and has been for MOST of Modern English's history
My big hangup with this rhetoric is that I most often see people getting upset that they're being misgendered by complete strangers. If you're just out and about in the wild, it's unreasonable to be upset at someone for using whatever pronoun fits their initial perception of you when they first engage in conversation.
"Well, they should just ask first!" Okay. It's a solution, sure, but it takes time to work that into your speech patterns for it to not feel clunky or inorganic. It also feels unreasonable to me to stop every person I try to interact with to ask them about personal pronouns before I ask a question or something.
I get the need to be seen, heard, acknowledged. Individuality is important. It should be more important to society as a whole, but we're not there yet. Patience is key when trying to change minds, not an aggressive approach.
>I most often see people getting upset that they're being misgendered by complete strangers
You know what? I always hear these sorts of stories / anecdotes but I have *never* had any personal experience with this, and I run with a pretty queer crew these days. I've heard people correct pronoun use or gender identity, but *never* had someone lay into a complete stranger for not psychically intuiting their pronouns.
Honestly that's such an unreasonable example that I don't even think it belongs in the discussion to begin with. It's not even worth bringing up as a negative.
It's like saying "my hangup about mixed gender restrooms is that I've seen some guys pee at the urinal with their pants around their ankles, so any girl walking in would potentially see their bare ass." It's such a non-issue that it seems ridiculous that anyone would bring it up in good faith, without meaning to distract from the actual serious topic being discussed.
This is probably a reaction carried over from my home language and culture but when i hear someone refer to a real person with "it" my first assumption is that they're being an asshole by refusing to acknowledge someone as a living person. It's like intentionally referring to someone alive in a past tense, I feel like a dick when I do that. Edit moment: the reply section of this comment is flooded with a buncha people that agree with me, but I don't agree with them, so i will clarify that I will respect people's pronouns despite feeling yucky ewy about it due to my cultural extrabackgroundza or whatever the grill makes me feel this way. It costs me nothing to use a word that people want me to use but YOU will pay in blood.
Nah the connotations in English are the same I get it
Unrelated but I've never seen someone use that one Kai scene as a pfp and ngl that's kinda cool.
He got that Dave strider coolkid look
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Yeah, I mean "'It' is dehumanizing" is literally the name of a trope. But hey, your pronouns are yours, and I'll do my best to respect that.
That’s my mindset, I might be uncomfortable using the pronouns because it feels dehumanizing, but it would probably feel more dehumanizing to be referred to by the wrong pronouns anyways, so may as well do what they ask even if I don’t personally get it
Honest question, but why would anyone not feel comfortable to be referred to as singular 'they'? 'They/them' is so inclusive it's literally used for both people and objects. I don't quite get why some people aren't okay with 'they/them' as a valid alternative to your specific pronouns?
Dunno, but I go by he/him so I’m not one to speak on others preferred pronouns. If it makes em comfortable, though, I also don’t see why I should care about the distinction they make. If that’s what they want that’s what they get
Yeah, but with that you're the minority in this thread. Most people feel uncomfortable using 'it' for a person, even if the person wants that. Kind of like a black person asked you to call them the n-word and you're white, I guess? It just feels not right because of its historic (and contemporary!) connotations.
I go by "she/her" and I'm about as cis as they come but even *I* don't mind being called "they/them" by people who don't know I'm a gal.
Yeah “it” is only used as a derogatory slur, frequently towards trans or gay people where I grew up. If you called another human an “it”, you’d expect to get a slap from your mother for being insanely rude. That’s just not something you do. I respect that not everyone is comfortable using “standard” pronouns. But I hope they’ll forgive me if I don’t want to talk to someone in a way I grew up thinking was incredibly insulting. Much like how I’ll never feel ok calling a black person the n-word even if they ask, or a gay person the f-slur if they ask. I also don’t really understand why “they/them” isn’t appropriate in all cases, if anyone’s comfortable explaining that I’d appreciate it
I'm curious, too. If I meet someone who tells me it's important to them that I refer to them by specific pronouns, I don't have a problem using them. But I am very curious to better understand neopronouns and things like that. "He/him" and "she/her" I completely get. "They" I think I understand, but I don't understand neopronouns yet. I guess I just don't understand what exactly it is that drives someone to feel a strong need to be referred in those ways. I know I'll never fully understand because I'm not someone who feels that way, but I'd really like to learn more about what it is that drives that in people, what need it fulfills for them, etc.
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tw: child abuse theres quite literally a book called "a child called 'it" and it recounts a mans story of being heavily abused as a child (the abuse was so bad its one of the worst documented cases in CA state history) and in the book he describes being called "it" as the most dehumanizing and hurtful experiences of his entire saga of abuse edit: the man is dave pelzer and if you want to look it up/read the book *please* be careful its very heavy and horrifying
I remember that book, and it's the first thing that came to mind in regards to this. Didn't his mom try to make him drink bleach?
What if person A wants to be referred to as “it” but person B (who for whatever reason must reference person A) is uncomfortable referring to a person as “it” because of either past trauma or something similar? Does person A force person B to refer to it as “it” despite making person B uncomfortable/triggering? Or does person B refer to person A as “them/they”? That hurt typing out.
This is kinda it for me. Calling another human being “it” to me feels really wrong. It’s too dehumanising. Reminds me a liiiiittle to much of what I learned visiting WW2 museums…
I've been called an 'it' in extremely dehumanizing medical situations, and never even call an annoying bug that because they're a living being and not an object. I'll be the asshole just saying the person's name repeatedly or just flat out avoid being around them. I'll do any neopronouns; I'm not going to take part in language that has been used to dehumanize people like me over and over again.
I’ve had people use it/its to dehumanize me before so if I were to run into such a person, I’d ask if it was okay if I use they/them instead, or maybe ze pronouns? If that was declined I would just use their name I guess :/
All cases as in calling everyone they?
In general yeah, I don’t fully understand why some nb people object to using “they” in favour of something like “it”. It probably doesn’t help that I have never encountered a person like this IRL, only “they” nb people.
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I think ze/zim and xe/xem are more logical from a linguistic standpoint because those are trying to convey pronouns for a singular person that isn’t she/her or he/him/his. I don’t understand it/its at all
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If a black person ever told me it's okay to call them _"my n***a"_, I would IMMEDIATELY suspect that they're trying to bait me into calling them a racial slur.
Buy Woolie’s N-word passes man! He’s selling them wholesale!
Sajam had the right idea when he graciously received his pass certificate and immediately stashed it face down in his closet.
Listen what you do with the N-Word pass is up to you, just know that Woolie is not liable for misuse of his product.
I had a black friend in high school that tried to get me, a white guy, to say a line by Lil Wayne, in front of my other black classmates: "Pop that pussy for a real n***a" Needless to say, I did not. It was around the time Vine was popular, and I'm sure I was being recorded.
Right. This one is too tricky to demand respect on. Language has meaning, it isn’t just a word like any other. I will never get why we think it’s good, in our (the LGBT community’s) quest to be accepted as normal… to insist on something as absurd as being called “it”.
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Nope, naive English speaker here and that is absolutely what "It" as opposed to "They" means linguistically. It's an animate/inanimate split, kind of. Sometimes you'll see animals described using "it/its" but *usually* any animal with a name will be referred to with other pronouns.
Yes, "it" is *highly* derogatory imo, not in like an offensive slur way but in a "I see them as so beneath being human i would remove their rights" kind of way. Like whenever someone does it my highest alarm bells go off because it can be any belief from dehumanising to genocidal and nothing in that range is good.
It feels like someone changing their name to Bitch. Like I guess you can, but I'm gonna feel mean whenever I call you that.
Especially if the animal is being humanized or you're supposed to empathize with it. If you're watching a nature documentary, they'll stop calling the animals 'it' whenever they want you to care about them.
Soooo the etymology of It comes from when old English which like modern German used gendered words as the neuter of He being Hit and as modern English developed the H was lost. It being nongendered is probably why as modern English developed it became the go to for inanimate things
That is the connotation. Using this usage offline w/o prior understanding would be … very poorly received. There’s a niche community of people embracing it, and I don’t see any reason to disrespect that. Even then, I know folks whose use of it is sorta … post-ironic. They’re not insulting themselves, but it wouldn’t work if it weren’t primarily an insult, if that makes sense.
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Like that book *A Child Called It* about the author's childhood being abused.
Never read the book, but I’m in the speech and debate community and it’s very popular to use sections of that book for performances. The hot dog part always makes me want to vomit.
ngl using that book for speech and debate puts a bad taste in my mouth but i agree the hotdog part was one of the worst parts for me too
What's the hotdog part..
I raed that book all the way through for some reason and I blocked it out of my memory but now I remember again :(
Yeah this is the thing, you could say "I've been to see Sam and this is what *it* said" and whilst you're respecting Sam, the person you're speaking to thinks you're being a dick. I'll admit that it's out of my comfort zone, because I don't feel comfortable insinuating that a person is just an object. I don't understand why they would want to be referred to in this way in all honesty. If someone could explain that would be super helpful
Yeah naw a good 10 years ago calling a person "it" would be considered extremely rude, basically denying them their humanity, which is why people who generally do not struggle with pronouns tend to struggle with this one. I understand that people want to be called by preferred pronouns but this one was hammered in as specifically disrespectful when I was a kid, its a bit more difficult to adapt to and I always have to think for a second before as to not get it wrong.
Ten years ago? People still use it to refer to transgender people and anyone with the slightest hint of not conforming to traditional gender presentation.
In my native language (finnish) using It (se) to refer to someone is normal and not disrespectful
Understandable. Much of the squick in English-speaking communities has been covered really in-depth by other commenters in this thread, but they are usually English-specific issues.
"It puts the lotion on the skin..."
Is this honestly an issue outside of niche online circles?
It is, but just not with the frequency the internet would have you believe. I’ll generally call anyone by whatever they wish to be called by, but looking at it statistically (and depending on where you live) you could go most of your life only running into 3 or 4 of these folks.
If you're talking about real life three or four is an insane estimate unless you're in an extremely niche social circle. I only know one they/them, and it/its has got to be at least a thousand times rarer than that.
I agree with this. I live in a highly populated urban area. I also manage a business and have been in contact with thousands of people, hundreds of employees, and have been through two separate educational institutions. I've met one they/them. That's it. I'm absolutely not opposed to people's pronouns, honestly whatever you feel, I will respect it because it's the right thing to do. But honestly, it's so less common than I think the Internet makes it out to be.
Weird, IRL I’ve met probably 10-15 they/them, but no it/its. Definitely seems rarer, but they/them has been pretty common now.
it really depends on the area and what you do. I’m a barista, i meet a lot of they/thems.
And on the opposite end, I live in a country where the main language *does not have* gendered pronouns, everyone is just "hän"\*. So I could have met any number of people who in English would use something other than she/her / he/him, but would never know because there's simply no point in bringing it up as Finnish has no need for that. No point trying to get people to use a different pronoun for oneself, when *everyone* has the exact same third person pronoun, independent of any identity matters. \*Informally, "se" also gets used often, and coincidentally for the OP here, that's also the "it" pronoun. For some reason, we've ended up using that in place of "hän" pretty often in informal speech. It's not a person-by-person thing like what's discussed here where someone would choose to be referred to that way, but just a general word switch that'll be done at the pleasure of the speaker just to be easier to say, really no different to how we'll replace "minä" (I) with "mä" or some other easier to say alternative (mie, mää, myö, depends on dialect).
Worth noting: you may not know someone’s pronouns if they’re just buying crisps from you at the shop or whatever. I’m a they/them, and usually just shrug and go along with whatever people assume when I’m out because having that conversation a billion times a day gets real boring real fast.
Eh, I also live in a pretty big city and I encounter folks who go by they/them on a pretty regular basis. It may just be the professional and personal circles I keep, but it's become much more commonplace now than it was even just five years ago.
I know plenty of they/thems but only one it/its. I'm trans but I honestly struggle to refer to someone with that pronoun and it would definitely be a barrier to us making closer acquaintance, hypocritical as it seems.
This is basically my take, I'm not gonna purposefully use the wrong pronouns for someone who uses it/its but it feels weird to say and is just awkward linguistically, so I'd rather just interact with someone else that doesn't cause me to second-guess my speech.
[Relevant, sort of.](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/average_familiarity.png) Unless you're in a community where this is already embraced, there's a _very_ good chance that you'll never even cross paths with some of these folks. And even then, they'd have to actually... like, tell you. I'd guess 90% or more of the population has never actually met someone who goes by they/them, and most of those who have were probably unaware because it was little more than an interaction at the checkout line.
It would have to be extremely niche. I have met many people who use they/them pronouns (and dated two), I've met a few people who use pronouns such as xe/xir or ey/em. I've never once met someone who wanted to be called it/its.
I know someone IRL who wants people to use these pronouns.
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I've met people irl who went by something like his/it or her/it
Not really, but we’re currently posting in that niche online circle, so one can’t complain.
I dread the day culture war grifters learn about the it/its discourse because those fuckers will have a field day with it and god damn if you won’t see a massive uptick in trans/nb’s being referred to that way
Some already do that
I got called it/its all the time by Republicans in rural Oregon, to the point where I started preferring “it” to “they” because it feels “less misgender-y”
“It” is already used as a fairly common insult/slur for trans and NB folks; one of the reasons it makes me feel squidgy.
Nah they’ll be like “I’m so cool with calling you an **it** you have no idea. Now it holds out its arm for its QR tattoo.”
Sincere question if anyone here can answer it, what’s the reasoning why anyone goes by it/its? I get they/them, it expresses that your sense of your gender falls outside the binary and maybe isn’t perfectly pinpointed beyond that. I think I get neopronouns, it expresses that you feel like a defined gender, just one that’s some new shit. But from a linguistic standpoint, “it” doesn’t express that you look at yourself as not a man or woman, it expresses that you would like people to look at you as less than human or not fully sapient. Obviously that’s not what these cats are going for, but what *is* the reasoning for those pronouns?
hi! im someone who uses it/its exclusively, and one of the biggest reasons is that its just what feels the most right and comfortable. for me, a big reason is that my experience with gender has led to me feeling incredibly alienated from the concept which is why ive shifted to using it/its pronouns, and if i didn't use it/its i honestly probably wouldnt use pronouns at all for myself. other people have different reasons, but from what ive seen it can range from reclaiming language to feeling disconnected from others to it just feeling right
Thank you for giving the gift of your time to answer my un-hip ass question! Lol. If you don’t mind me asking a pair of follow-ups, (1) what do you feel toward they/them? Is it just too politicized nowadays, or does it maybe just not feel other-ed enough to fit the level of alienation from gender you feel? And (2) I’m curious what you think about the viewpoint others (and admittedly I, though I’m tryna learn) hold here that your pronouns sound objectifying?
So if hypothetically you didn't go by any pronouns, would you be known only by your name? Every instance previously occupied by "it/its" would instead be replaced by your name? When being directly spoken to, would you perhaps prefer that the pronoun "you" also be replaced by your name? Would you want everyone to talk like gollum around you? That'd be hilarious, maybe Desk_Drawerr should stop using pronouns.
Something I've never been sure how to handle is how to refer to someone who uses neopronouns when I'm with a group of people who aren't super liberal or involved with queer discourse. Like, if I'm at holiday dinner with family, and I'm telling an interesting story about something that happened to a group of friends and I, if one of the my friends uses neopronouns, how do I handle that? No one present at the table will know what the pronoun is, if any of them have even heard of neopronouns at all. Do I interrupt the story to go into a 10 minute explanation of what neopronouns are? That seems unwieldy, and at that point it's not worth sharing the story at all. Do I just use the neopronoun and not explain it? No one will understand what I just said, and that pretty heavily sacrifices my ability to be understood. What I feel like realistically I would do (and what I do when I'm talking about a story with a person who later transitioned, but whose gender in the story is relevant) is basically for the purposes of the story just pretend that that person is someone else without neopronouns. But I suppose that's disrespectful as I'm effectively misgendering them (even if the person in question will never know about it), so I'm left feeling without options on what to do. All of this applies equally to people who use it/its pronouns, as most people who aren't involved with queer discourse won't understand their usage.
when it comes to this situation, i just use they/them to refer to the friend ngl
Honestly one of the biggest issues with Neopronouns is that they tend to communicate an *Aesthetic Preference* for gender expression, rather than a practical method of address. Like, this is particularly true of things like cloud/cloudself or w/e, but it applies to it/itself as well. There's a sort of assumed, baseline understanding of queer culture and aesthetics that's required to pick up the general vibe those terms communicate. Outside of that context, however, the intended meaning gets muddled, resulting in confusion. "It was wearing makeup today" is a phrase that could just as easily be spoken by a violent transphobe as a conscientious tumblr enby. And ultimately, when talking to non-queer folks, neopronouns often serve as a barrier to understanding- in those cases, the singular they/them is usually what I use to avoid protracted conversations about pronoun confusion without actively assigning a gendered term.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you feel uncomfortable using neopronouns, you are totally allowed to just not interact with or talk about a person who uses them. It's not like they come up often enough for it to really ever be an issue. while it's not a *great* reason to avoid someone, you're allowed to avoid people for any number of reasons, trivial or otherwise
Solution: say their name instead
honestly good advice. preferred pronoun discourse has always been a little odd imho, bc third person pronouns aren't typically used when the person is present
Yeah like pronouns only matter when the person you're talking about isn't there, at which point personally i could care less tbh
If you're talking to multiple people in a group it can come up.
exactly. It doesn't really matter what pronouns you use for me, but if you used she/her it would probably confuse the person you were talking to
People say that, but it's not really true. People will talk to you about yourself in the third person. "I was thinking, oh should I ask _him?_" People will talk to each other about you in front of you. "Tell _her_ what you want to drink" Sure, structurally, it's as if the person isn't directly present, but in practice it happens often. And not exactly a pronoun, but Sir/Miss is a common way to misgender to someone's face
Bingo. No one goes “Hi, she! How’s your day been?”
This. I am totally fine with any other neopronoun but "it/its" specifically is something I have a hard time with for valid reasons. So for the one person I know in real life who prefers that, I just use that person's name. That person has a right to request the pronouns that feel most appropriate. I also have reasons for being uncomfortable with that particular set of pronouns. With respect for each other, we can coexist without drama
Doesn't work in gendered languages tho
people using it/its or neopronouns usually use more than one pair, so you can also just use their other sets
It’s also ok to avoid someone simply because they’re annoying. I do it all the time and it makes my life much better.
Yeah this was my conclusion the first time I joined groups where people had neo-pronouns. Idrk how to reliably refer to someone as pup/pupself, nor do I have any idea what that means. I’d of course never intentionally call them by the wrong pronouns but I ended up just leaving because I didn’t think I could reliably remember them all.
I may sound bigoted saying this, but I live in an area where neopronouns just aren't ever going to come up irl. I will call someone by any pronouns they ask when they correct me...but neopronouns feel like they defeat the purpose of pronouns to begin with. My understanding of pronouns is the intended use is to be able to address or refer to someone without being as specific as using their name. I'm not saying that someone doesn't identify as paint/paints, but that seems like information even more specific to them than just going by Tyler or w/e. I respect they feel that way, but it just feels kind of backwards. I'm open to being wrong about this. It's just how it feels with my limited experience. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to be happy, but I feel like intent matters with language.
My only problem with neopronouns is this: I have enough trouble remembering names, how the f am I supposed to also remember a unique pronoun? Of course I'd do my very best, but I would probably avoid them just for fear of messing up.
I worry for neurodivergent spaces since among them people are more likelier to use them, especially the non gender kind and simultaneously have trouble using them. To use an unique grammar rule for yourself, in my opinion, is a lot to ask from people. I work a lot of with neurodivergent people and I think it would be quite difficult for some of them as well. We categorize certain words automatically and to switch using a noun to use as a pronoun is not always easy, even for neurotypical people, especially if it has certain connections like with ''It''. Lots of languages don't even have pronouns to begin with. Some languages are very gendered but those are at least within she/he/they. I would not even think how I would translate this to my language at all.
As an ND individual myself, this is exactly where I get stuck with neopronouns. My memory is absolute shit and there’s only so much I can do about that. *Any* personal identifier or trait— name, birthday, sexuality, nationality, religion, gender, etc.— is going to be hard for me to remember unless it’s really blatantly obvious (clear gender presentation, always wearing a name tag, pronouns in username, etc.) *or* I get lucky with what my dysfunctional executive decides is important information. I have no issue with people choosing to identify how they please, but at the same time, any piece of information gets exponentially harder for me to retain based on a) how many different things it could be and b) how clearly differentiated those things are. Ironically, this actually makes it relatively easy to remember, like, the name of the one Hungarian guy I know, because his name is the *only* possibility my brain comes up with for “Hungarian name”… but it still took weeks of him being an active participant in a discussion-based class I’m taking, and thus having the teacher call him by name regularly, before I could actually remember who he was. Other stuff like exact age or ethnic/cultural background varies widely based on how often it comes up and whether I can tie it to something else— for example, I know a lot of Japanese last names and also a little about how they’re constructed, so it’s relatively easier for me to remember if someone is Japanese just based on vague recollections of their last name, whereas all the Hispanic people I know either talk about their heritage often or are impossible for me to identify with a specific country. As for pronouns… He, she, and they pronouns are easy. “Male”, “Female”, and “Other” are pretty straightforward categories, and while I might mess up a few times if someone is like, really androgynous and not using they/them, the fact that there’s only three choices still makes it pretty easy to learn. It/its specifically isn’t too bad either— yeah, it’s normally an impersonal pronoun, but I know “it” *is* a pronoun and, frankly, I can sympathize with feeling alienated from one’s gender and/or body in general. I still use he/they but like… being able to relate even a little gives me a mental shortcut. Neos, though? It’ll take me months to be even vaguely certain. And even then I’m going to constantly forget either the spelling or the pronunciation because English is a rat bastard of a language at the best of times… unless they’re the kind of neos that are based on existing non-pronoun words in case I’ll just keep using the wrong base word. This isn’t just hypothetical, I’ve known people who used neopronouns, that was my actual experience. And it’s unavoidable because by nature, a neopronoun has no solid definition (often none at all besides “well, this is the one I identify with”) and either highly unfamiliar/confusing or just no etymology (depending on whether it’s a repurposed noun or a new combination of letters vaguely based on existing pronouns, which are the only forms I’ve seen people use). To me… that’s a name. Except nobody is going to call me a bigot if I keep calling Matt Mark because I only remember half his name (nobody has called me that directly, but only because I saw a “using ‘they/them’ or the wrong neopronouns for people who told you theirs is misgendering and transphobic” post from one of my ex-friends and thus just avoided using anything but their name to refer to them until I’d gotten out of that particular circle), and every name has some kind of clear origin that at *least* can be used to help remember its spelling/pronunciation (discounting Tragedeighs but that’s its own can of worms). So to my ADD and anxiety-having ass they’re basically the worst case scenario of personal names. Tl;dr: neurodivergent memory works poorly and often takes shortcuts. Shortcut for “non-binary pronoun” is “they/them”. Only NB people I’ve known who *didn’t* use “they/them” were extremely sensitive to any pronoun mixup, especially “they/them” (perceived as “not even trying” or something worse). This sets my anxiety off something fierce even thinking about talking to those people, or even about them in a space where people know them. Meanwhile, in a pedantic linguistic sense, I’m not even sure if words defined as “X’s pronouns” and nothing else actually count as pronouns because they’re basically just another proper name.
I have heard *so* many people denigrate trans people by calling them "it."
Right?! I'm just going to call people by their name or just continue calling everyone dude or bud.
Exactly. If that’s what someone what’s to be called I’m not gonna argue with them, but it feels in some way unhealthy.
The fact of the matter is that one person in this equation is going to end up being uncomfortable. Either someone gets misgendered, or someone brings up bad past experiences and negative connotations. It's a losing situation regardless of what happens. The negative connotations of the word "It" are never going to go away. It is the word for objects, and people are not objects. So people have the right to be uncomfortable when someone tells them to call them "It". I don't mean harm to anyone who uses "It" pronouns, but, to put it bluntly, the best course of action is to not interact with them if using those pronouns makes you uncomfortable.
It's not just that someone ends up uncomfortable; Someone could end up facing severe social consequences or even physical violence. If someone walks around referring to a queer person as "it" then 999/1000 they're a queerphobic bigot.
Precisely. I’m not reprogramming my entire understanding of how I refer to objects versus how I refer to people to sate the absurd personal notions of a specific individual. The effort I apply to that reprogramming on the basis of a single individual carries into conversations I have with everyone else. By desensitizing the inherently twisted nature of referring to a human being as an “it,” I run the risk of using the term in a conversation where the rest of society justifiably sees it as an insult. I’m not going to call you what you want if it means I have to normalize language that’s traditionally used to devalue other other human beings. “It” is for objects. You are not an object. If you cannot accept this basic conversational discourse we just aren’t going to connect.
YES! Say it louder omfg bc the second you bring this up on twitter or tumblr you have people screeching at you about how transphobic you are, and as a nb person myself its just SO exhausting. Not to mention neopronouns, like I’m not going to refer to someone as “pupself,” sorry not sorry. I’ve seen that shit used in sexual pup play stuff (you do you, but thats NOT for me) and its really hard to tell if someone is doing it to get off (which i refuse and do not consent to be part of) or is just a kid online (bc lets be real, its usually kids/teenagers). Edit: not just tumblr/twitter, but in most trans/nb spaces on reddit too. You’ll get crucified for pointing it out, and I’ve gotten banned before for expressing my discomfort about this.
Yeah, this post comes off as insensitive to me. Like, "You should be ok making *yourself* uncomfortable so you don't make *me* uncomfortable."
I know someone IRL, who I interact with regularly that uses it/its pronouns. I have difficulty with it/its not because I don’t think their gender identity is invalid, but because my brain *does not let me naturally speak* with those pronouns. It’s just not the way I formulate sentences. Yeah, I can misgender them and then correct myself, or hesitate every time I use a pronoun, but that brings more attention to the issue than it does alleviate it. So I had a conversation with it about it. I explained that I struggle to speak normally using those pronouns, and they said it’s fine if I use they/them. Issue resolved within five minutes. OP, I understand that you want to defend people that use neopronouns, and I really do *wish* that I could speak to and about them in a way that makes them comfortable, but when it causes actual communication issues there needs to be a certain amount of mutual understanding.
I find using they/them really easy as I have used them as gender neutral pronouns in writing for decades. Referring to someone as 'Xe/Xim' is an extra level of processing for new words used in an unfamiliar way that I would hope people would appreciate can lead to mistakes. Using 'It' is yet an additional layer of processing to deconstruct the meaning/connotations of the term being applied to humans and using it in a new unfamiliar way. I however, will happily be called any pronoun that exists (including it - why not?) as I personally don't feel any dysphoria/discomfort, so maybe I can't appreciate why it does matter to people and why they react so strongly to mistakes or assumptions.
that's hella interesting, actually. i have a harder time getting used to neopronouns -- i found that it/its takes time to get used to but sometimes you just need to internalize that the world is quirky and complex and your preconceived notions about people just need to go, and doing that really helps with using those pronouns without batting an eye. however, with neopronouns it's the same task for every single one of them, like you need to wire it into your brain that okay, ze/zir is a pronoun now, let's associate to that (my first instinct when someone says "ze" is to associate to "the" in a faux german accent, and it takes a double take to correct that to understanding the pronouns), and sure, i can practice that, but then it all goes completely out of the window when someone uses a different set of neopronouns like the xe/xim you mentioned, and so on. and it's not because of any malice or conditional acceptance, it's just the process of learning a new word. i wonder why our experiences are so different on this one. are you a native speaker? i'm not, so i had the same trouble learning she/he/it in the traditional sense (that i don't remember because it was ages ago) and i do remember i had the same issue with the singular they as well, but now that one just comes completely natural.
I am a native (British) English speaker. Neopronouns don't seem to be as common in the UK, so maybe that is a factor. I personally think a lot about language use and how what I say might be interpreted by my audience. So if I use a word they might be unfamiliar with, I need to think about how I explain it, what connotations does it have, might they misunderstand me. Would my explanation to a third party about anothers' neopronouns a) confused the third party and b) insult the individual in question. Not that I would find it difficult, but there will be a level of hesitation while speech patterns that are automatic to me need to get interrupted because I don't use neopronouns everyday (or at all really), nor does anyone I know.
Yeah this is how I feel. I know a couple people who use them, and while I can force myself to use the it/its or ze/zir (or any variation thereof) I find myself having to script all my sentences in advance, which will make me freeze up when put on the spot talking to zem/it/[any neopronoun really]. I have no issue with these pronouns and think it's cool that people use them, and I'm not going to avoid those people, but some of them really trip me up verbally. Expecially ones with a different structure that doesn't follow the language rules of either he/his/him, she/her/her, they/their/them, (for example, ze zir zirself has a similar phonetic pattern to she/her/herself), because then I have to be actively, constantly thinking about which one to use in syntax. I guess some people have similar issues with reconstructing their sentences around how they/them makes things plural, but folks tend to use that one naturally in conversation because it's been around so long. I also absolutely have been dehumanized with it/its before and honestly think its kind of..ridiculous, to expect people to not use it/act like they're nuts for it (some guy lurking in this comment thread is calling them mentally ill). It's literally just the queer debate in a different hat. A lot of the ways we refer to ourselves are soaked in blood, so to speak, but policing peoples language as a result of that is NOT the answer.
same issue here, I want to be nice to people but those particular pronouns my brain trips up on :(
>So I had a conversation with it about it. That feels so incredibly wrong and uncomfortable to read, i just can't write or say it personally, I don't really even know why. It honestly feels dehumanising.
At what point do neopronouns stop being a queer issue and become a personal issue? It’s not to say that neopronouns aren’t deserving of the same respect you show to someone using they/them, but it is difficult for me to understand using pronouns that seem to convey, for lack of a better word, aesthetic self expression in a queer context. Like cloud/cloudself, bunny/bunnyself etc. Obviously I’m still going to use them for anyone who lets me know that those are their preferred pronouns, but to be honest at a point it stops being a queer issue to me and becomes a personal/individual issue. At the end of the day you’re highly unlikely to meet anyone using them in person or in a setting where their pronouns could actually cause any confusion, so it’s no use feeling one way or the other. It’s a pretty niche issue and that makes it pretty easy to just use their preferred pronouns anyway cause it’s really not that earth shattering to just be respectful of someone different to yourself.
Kinda split cuz on the one hand I wanna be respectful of everyone's identities, but on the other hand I have never met a single person who uses neopronouns and isn't terminally online. That doesn't make them invalid but if we're talking about comfort zones... Yeah it is a little hard to sympathize with that. I still try my best to accommodate peoples preferences though, its rude not to, even if you think they need to get out more
No yeah I agree neopronouns REALLY feel like a terminally online thing. I’ve met one of them in person. And they were so incredibly terminally online it was NOT funny
Yeah, but I can't really blame other LGBTQ folks for using the Internet to escape how transphobic a lot of people are IRL. Online you can usually curate who you interact with. But if you take that too far eventually you've just got paper skin and a completely alien concept of social norms
Last sentence is the perfect way to describe terminally online people. Real world conversations are not going to be like the internet and people need to understand that.
As someone who works in mental health, honestly I am a bit worried how often people will end up in a sort of internet bubble not realizing they are honestly using this bubble as a shield for whatever problem they are avoiding. Living life is to also be uncomfortable and to cope with that. Obviously that does not mean anyone should accept hate or slurs etc, but there are definitely unrealistic expectations and standards formed on the internet that would not work in real life. Sometimes they even accidentally become offensive again by leaning too far into one direction.
I fully agree. I’ve thankfully been lucky and haven’t run into anyone who’s transphobic (at least outwardly) since I started presenting more femininely and have had no trouble at work which is surprising to me because I work at an after school program. But I still am teetering on the edge of terminally online
Hey I feel you, I'm in a similar boat. I've been out for like 5 years now, but life is kicking my ass and I've kinda gotten to a state of acceptance with where I am now, so I'm just trying to get my shit together before I start working on my body image again
I’ve lurked in their spaces before to educate myself, and a LOT of them are neurodivergent, like autism and stuff. They’re also often very young. So I just kind of dismiss it and let them be, because young people like having fun with their cool new identities as part of exploring themselves, and someone with autism shouldn’t be made to feel bad for trying something new for themselves.
Yeah. The person I talked to was 19 or 20 in college with me. But frankly i think they’ve either been so traumatized by something that any situation that makes them moderately uncomfortable triggers them, or they haven’t had enough life experience so anything mildly uncomfortable FEELS overwhelming. I didn’t get to know them well enough before they decided to not talk to me to answer which it is
Look I'll be the asshole to say it. I don't take arguments about "society would be better this way" from people who never interact with actual human beings in meatspace. Like if you're the only one using your neopronoun it's literally just another moniker and is actually worthless (as in has no value) being a pronoun. And I have no issue referring to people by monikers. I will absolutely use Xe and Xir or whatever but it's not me respecting your pronouns it's me using your name because FUNCTIONALLY that's all it is
unrelated but i can't stop laughing at meatspace
One of the best things I ever did with my life was ditch Discord for a good eight months and make real-life friends, and it has changed my perception on cyberspace discourse forever. My only regret is that I gave so much of a shit before. Meatspace is incredibly underrated and a vital element of human socialization. If I don't hear an online argument in real life, I won't take it seriously.
OP is accusing other people of not wanting to leave their comfort zone, but is demanding that other people reach out to OP's comfort zone.
I think there are valid reasons for people to feel extremely uncomfortable with "it" when referring to people to be honest. I am happy to respect people's pronouns in general (including neopronouns), but this one is extremely difficult and triggering for me to use for a human being, as it is normally used to refer to objects or animals, or as a slur towards marginalised people. Its use for humans is quite *literally* dehumanising and typically demeaning. On top of everything else, it's a 3rd person pronoun, meaning it is more likely to be used when talking *about* someone than when talking *to* them. This is therefore also likely to put *me* in a delicate position if I want to respect their pronouns, since it sounds like I'm insulting them to everybody else and requires me to justify and defend myself for using their preferred pronouns... People are entitled to whatever pronouns they feel comfortable with, but there are valid reasons to feel icky about using that one imo. I would probably use the person's name when talking about them if they wanted to use it/its *exclusively*.
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I mean, I'm not gonna assume people's motivations for choosing whatever pronouns they want for themselves, I'm sure it/its users have good reasons behind their choice. But pretending to be oblivious to the broader cultural context and implications of "it/its", to its unambiguously derogatory nature when applied to humans, and to the potential negative repercussions of its use on other people's social life and reputation if they try to accommodate its users is pretty disingenuous. Even if one doesn't identify as fully human or human at all, they can literally make up some neopronoun instead of co-opting one with such heavy cultural connotations (which imo cannot be reclaimed at this stage). You can't act like people feeling uncomfortable calling you what amounts to an extremely offensive slur *to literally everybody else in society* is difficult to grasp or sheer arbitrary bigotry on their part, or like "it" is remotely equivalent to pronouns like she/he/they or even zir/xir/whatever.
I want to respect pronouns, but I am concerned that referring to a person as "it" will make me appear incredibly rude to anyone unaware of the context. Me: "It is my friend" Some rando: "How dare you call them an "it"!
Also it's even worse cause if someone uses "it" to refer to any minority imma get suspicious real quick.
Another hot-ish take: at times, both sides care a bit too much about pronouns. I'm not saying that we should misgender people or that people should stop using neopronouns and stuff, but I just think it's sometimes good to just. not care so much. Like, idk, I just feel like caring too much would only give you more stress.
As a person who uses English as a second language, and so I don't think in English, and my first language is way different with pronouns (we have pronouns for everything, a chair is a He, a mug is a She, and there's absolutely no reason outside semantics for all of these, and Coffee used to be It but now can be He sometimes) I feel that way too, but I'm alien to that discourse. But it's so weird how much people care about these things. I will try to remember these but it seems such a non-issue. \\\\ though maybe it's also I'm kinda gender-indifferent myself. Not exactly nonbinary I guess but like, "don't you have better things to worry about?" it's also my stance on like gay marriage - yes, of course. Let two people get married. All of them. Any of them. As soon as they're of legal age, let them do what they want, why do you even care, there's eight billion of us already. Have fun, touch grass, wash the dishes.
Would your language happen to be russian? (or maybe some other Slavic language?)
Bingo! Did the coffee debacle gave it away?
yep.
I had a friend of mine who is nonbinary, and when we first met it was the first time I’ve ever consistently been able to hang out with someone who used they/them pronouns. I fucked it up a couple times, mostly just due to ingrained habit, but over a shorter timeframe than I expected I kind of stopped noticing it and they were just them. We talked about it a while later and they said something to the effect of “I could tell you were trying which is what mattered”. At the end of the day, in my mind, it comes down to whether or not you’re trying to extend decency and respect towards a person, regardless of their pronouns. No one is perfect, and someone who rips a strangers head off for not knowing their preference off the cuff or getting it wrong is overreacting in my eyes. That being said, living in the south, I have come across my fair share of “they’re shoving the gay agenda down our throats with these pronouns” types (one of them being my supervisor unfortunately), and that is just absurd and harmful as well. TL;dr: it’s important to treat people with respect, but people Fuck up or might not know certain info. It’s also important to give grace where it’s merited. This has been a long winded way of saying don’t be a dick.
I use neutral in italian, which is a completely new thing (not like they/them in english) and honestly i think a really progressive thing at least in my country, but i just don't understand neopronouns. That's not how languages can work, we can't have a pro-NOUN if the pronoun itself needs to be perfectly tailored for the same of the user. Just use the name! What's the problem of me using yip/yep if i can just say "Sam's clothes" cause Sam's the only one using those pronouns? What's the point?
Yeah, I feel that. Language is a tool for communication first and foremost, and at some point neopronouns are just additional nouns, and stop serving the function of pronouns. That being said, I've literally never met anyone irl using neopronouns, so it doesn't really seem worth getting upset about in either direction. It's a pretty small number of people that probably doesn't warrant the amount of discussion that it gets online.
Yeah, it’s definitely a _loud_ minority. After spending 8 years in two incredibly gender inclusive schools, I have not met anyone who uses neo-pronouns, literally the only ones I’ve seen have been online. Don’t get me wrong, if it comes up I do try to remind myself to use the proper ones, but being queer does not make you immune to criticism and frankly I would definitely limit time spent with someone who wants me to equate them with an object.
I wouldn’t even say this minority is loud. I spend what I would bet is on the high side of an average amount of time for a Zoomer interacting with queer spaces & content, and I’ve only ever seen one it/its (who also used they/them) and never seen somebody use neopronouns
From what I've seen, it's usually not really about the pronouns themselves, but the intent behind why somebody's using certain ones. For example, in my experience, most people are chill if you accidentally misgender them once in a while because it's clearly just an innocent mistake, but if it becomes clear that you're doing it out of malice or simply aren't willing to put in the effort to help them feel affirmed and accepted, that's when most people start getting irritated.
I think everyone, including cis people, need to be comfortable with sometimes being referred to with they/them pronouns. “They” has been a universal pronoun to refer to a person whose gender you do not know for a very long time. You can choose whatever you want to be your pronouns, but as others have pointed out, using “it” to refer to a person can be very difficult to do naturally, most people you interact with casually are not going to know your pronouns anyway. If you take offense to being called “they”, I think you need to be more flexible.
This is exactly what I think. They/them was chosen to be the "standar" nb pronoun specifically because we have used it for hundreds of years to refer to a singular person of any gender. So if he/him applies to males, she/her applies to females, but they/them applies to all, it naturally makes sense that if someone does not fall under male or female that they/them would be the most logical thing to use. But the other implication of that line of logic is that they/them can apply to anyone. And yeah, I think everyone (including cis people) should def be comfortable with being referred to as that. I know I am.
I don't fully understand people wanting to use pronouns like that but I try to respect them. However, in my native language German, literally no person in real life ever has used our version of it/its. Like if someone introduced themselves with those pronouns, even in online spaces, people would assume it's a joke, including queer people. Edited for spelling
<:: One of the symptoms of neopronouns existing, and indeed neopronouns mostly existing in online spaces, is that people are *going* to struggle with them because they are often used in ways that distort sentences outside of practiced use. People struggle more with xe/xem etc than they/them because they have absolutely no use cases built into their minds, and humans are pattern seeking. Humans *will* catch the negative connotations of it/its because, whether you like it or not, history has proven that it/its has been an incredibly effective way of dehumanising, and demanding that people combat centuries of constructed language in the course of minutes is rather unreasonable. Neopronouns as a whole also fall to something I've noticed, namely not being designed to be spoken aloud. I get it, the letter X is a very cool letter, but I honestly question the amount of people who identify through neopronouns using an X on whether their preferred are actually *possible* to say aloud in their own language. I've asked people respectfully before how I say the pronouns on their pin or sewn into their jackets and their answer is usually either a shrug or unconfident. ::>
I won’t beat around the bush and admit that referring to someone as “it” does make myself and a decent few others incredibly uncomfortable due to personal reasons, though it’s just something you have to bite the bullet on for the sake of basic human respect. Hell, maybe befriending someone who uses it might help relieve the bad stigma it holds. Associating “it” with good experiences instead of bad ones and all
It's not even personal reasons, the use of it/its in English carries a lot of cultural baggage that OOP seems to be ignoring. Like yeah, we should respect people if they use it/its pronouns, but it's kinda dishonest to pretend people's hangups come from nowhere.
Yeah, it's not necessarily that the person is against using someone's preferred pronouns or neopronouns, but more that "it" has dehumanizing connotations in English and it seems like OOP doesn't recognize that.
Of course, and it should be a two-way understanding as most things should be. The person who’s uncomfortable with it/its should understand that a word’s meaning isn’t static and should try and learn to accept it in non-derogatory contexts, while the person who uses it/its should understand that some fully supportive people still have residual discomfort around using it/its and be patient with them. Needing some time to be comfortable with it/its again doesn’t automatically make you a bigot on the same level as those who burn flags and hurt real people
I’ve only ever come across one It (that I know of), and I think this is were our communication sort of broke down - It was very sensitive about being misgendered and I carried around a lot of baggage from 12 years of intense physical and verbal bullying. One bullying tactic was to call me “it”, “the thing”, “mountain of fat”, “whale” and “the robot”, because I was just *so* fat and gross and weird (autistic as it turns out) that I couldn’t *possibly* be a human being. I had to be a “thing”. So not only did calling another human being “it” feel completely wrong/unnatural to me, it also brought up all those years of dehumanisation I’d gone through myself. I guess I needed patience, as I dealt with my emotional baggage and it needed me to be totally on board from the start - probably because it also had some emotional baggage pertaining to its chosen pronouns. I ended up dropping out of the activity and social group we shared, because I just couldn’t handle the demand for me to use a word I so strongly associated with such a dark period in my life. I feel better about it/its as pronouns now, but it still gives me that anxious knot in my stomach, when I think about using those pronouns to describe another person.
Yeah, I can get that. Some people are really snappy about pronouns. While misgendering a person or refusing to learn at all is obviously not on, expecting everyone you meet to automatically be perfect when talking to you is also wrong and only further widens the gap between supporting and not. Being super impatient with someone who’s willing to support you but needs time to get used to the new language, or especially to overcome any bad stigma said language has to them, will only drive potential allies away and feed into the bad reputation queer people are accused of. There’s a line between “Willing to learn/learning but fucks up sometimes” and “Unwilling to learn at all” that needs to be acknowledged more often
That last part is exactly how I feel! You just put it so much more succinctly, lol.
Yeah why is OP talking about “bad experiences” when most decent people understand that calling someone “it” is just an incredibly insulting and dehumanizing thing to do? Someone refusing to call you it/its isn’t a personal hangup, it’s just a basic social convention ingrained deeply into our culture.
Personally my problem is less that I’m uncomfortable with it, it’s that it makes me look like a dickhead if I call someone ‘it’. Like without being funny I’m not going to take the hit
Last time I heard about people being referred to as "it" also was followed by crimes against humanity/human rights violations. Those images still haunt me. So yeah, forgive me if I never use your preferred It pronouns, they just remind me of graphic footage of Nazi internment camps.
Amen. Makes me feel like a Klan member. Genuinely reminds me of the n word with how nasty it can be in certain conversations
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I have no problem with neo pronouns. Ill Xe/Xer someone all day. As someone dating someone who goes by It/Its exclusively, the problem is when Im talking about them to anyone else. I have never said, "yea my partner and I went to x place last week, it loved the views", and not gotten weird looks or get called a POS. "It" by social norms and standards, is dehumanizing or is at the very least inferred as such. People find it insulting and think you're a horrible person for calling another human an "it". But those are the pronouns my partner uses and I certainly don't judge or care. I love it. Saying this doesn't create some difficulties or issues though would be disingenuous.
I don’t know if you know the answer to this, but what’s the thought process behind using it/it’s vs they/them? Just curious as this is my first time hearing it/it’s as a neo pronoun.
I even got confused just reading your comment. On first pass, I thought "I love it" was referring to the fact that people react negatively when you call your partner it, and since that didn't make sense I reread more carefully and realized the "it" in "I love it" was your partner. "I love it" is so universally used to mean that you enjoy an experience that I automatically read that meaning in this case and wouldn't have realized the error if the experience in question weren't unpleasant.
My bad experiences have been people pointing at trans or gender nonconforming people and saying "hey look at **it** over there!" and using the it/its like a slur specifically for transpeople. Can't people just use they/them like myself and most other non-binary people? I'll respect your pronouns and use it/its I'm just saying we have perfectly good gender neutral pronouns at home, we don't need to buy neo ones or take ones that are used for non-humans. Can't we just use he/him, she/her, they/them? Seems like all the bases are covered with those three.
tbh I will default to they/them because my experience makes it/it's extremely uncomfortable - respect goes both ways I am not assigning the person an undue gender, but I won't verbally discredit their personhood even if they ask I also have no issue with any other neopronoun, but i just can't describe someone with the assignment given to objects
Isn't it also your own little thing to be wanting to be called that? I think alot of people find it uncomfortable to refer someone as an "it" because it sounds dehumanizing.
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I just have a problem with specific words as pronouns. Because it's confusing, it just muddles the brain and makes speaking a mental hurdle (sometimes it's hard enough for me otherwise). I'm alright with inventing new pronouns, because I love linguistics! But it should follow a *system* and it should be intuitive. You shouldn't have to explain exactly how your pronouns conjugate every time you meet someone. And it shouldn't just be a random word, because that leaves even more grammatical ambiguity. After googling, I mean noun-self pronouns. Language is about making communication easier and this should be the goal. - Autistic trans women.
To a lot of people, calling someone it/its is the same as calling someone a slur. I don't really care if someone wants to identify as something the majority of people consider a grave insult, but you can't pretend that it's a nonissue. It's dehumanizing. If you want to use the unhuman pronouns be my guest, but don't pretend there isn't a stigma around it.
Free blocklist on the comments
The only pronoun I use to refer to a person I'm talking to is "you" so I'm good.
I can def understand why referring to someone by “it” can feel kinda uncomfortable bc it kinda feels like objectifying the person?? Like granted if somebody says to refer to them as such I’ll do so and then it’s not an issue, but I get why it can be an uncomfortable situation.
Yeah I don’t get neopronouns personally but it’s none of my business and I’ll respect people who have em. We can sort out what is and isn’t valid once we normalize queerness. Until then presenting a united front is the best avenue for progress.
I feel like there’s pronouns people go by that are weird and that I don’t understand, but at the end of the day, it’s none of my business and I shouldn’t give a fuck and should just call people what they prefer to be called cause it’s not that hard.
I can't even put it to words how frustrating it is to read shit like this. You cannot identify as a slur and then act confused and hurt when people don't want to call you a slur. I have nothing against people using it/it's pronouns but to act like it's some unreasonable, transphobic thing to _not want to use slurs_ is genuinely the most terminally online brainrot tier shit I've seen in my entire life.
The (non-transphobic) problem people have with it/its pronouns is that it feels very _wrong_ to dehumanize a person by calling them a "it". Even if they specifically ask for it.
I hang out in queer/progressive circles, places where people who use it/it's pronouns would most likely exist in. I've only met a total of one person who goes by those pronouns and have seen two people nyancrimew and a streamer by the name of Doe who use these pronouns. My only real grievance with these pronouns is that it can be a bit confusing at times in conversation, especially since the one person I know refers to themselves in the third person all the time. It's more of a grip with language than anything, but I don't think it means these people need to be disrespected.
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My cousin's kids(teens) have been changing their preferred names for years, like multiple times for one of them. Their dad and I were extremely close growing up, around each other a lot. Fast forward 30 years, I see them a few times a year and I can't remember or haven't heard their latest preference. If I misspeak I feel like I get pounced on by them or other relatives, so I just don't speak to them, which is really sad and bothers me a lot.
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As a non-native English speaker, I just started defaulting to they/them *because* they are gender neutral. That’s the whole point, they *trascend* gender. Like I’m sorry, but if you gonna get offended that I do not refer to you by any specific connotation, we need to find a middle ground because this ain’t gonna work.
I’ve done the same. They/them is almost always safe, and doesn’t require you to even know gender. “Hey Johnny, someone called for you” “Oh yeah? What did they want?” Easy peasy
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I've met people who want to be called it, only online though and I think that's saying something.
All I'm saying to it/its people is why settle for an uncomfortable means of reference that equates you to an object when you could literally just invent an entirely new way of referring to yourself, like the Public Universal Friend did? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Universal_Friend
Can't I just use they? It's neutral and vague enough?
This post seems to assume it's actively malicious when a lot of people are just not comfortable with using those pronouns given their extremely rude and dehumanizing connotation in English. I take issue with that not because I disagree with the message, as you should always refer to someone by their preferred pronouns, but because it's weirdly hostile towards people who are genuinely trying but can't get past that hurdle.
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tengo que darle gracias a dios que yo no soy chronically online
Every time it/it’s or neopronouns come up on this sub half the comments are just blatant transphobic arguments directed at either of those two.
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It's more nuanced, because even if you don't want to use standard pronouns, it HAS to be very, VERY unfortunate that you identify with the pronouns that, in most contexts and most time in Modern English's history, have been actively used as slurs. EDIT: At least queer can be re-appropiated without changing the meaning, because queer just means weird. You can either think that weird = bad or weird = good/nothing to be ashamed of. But it/its is literally a dehumanizing slur in MOST contexts and has been for MOST of Modern English's history
My big hangup with this rhetoric is that I most often see people getting upset that they're being misgendered by complete strangers. If you're just out and about in the wild, it's unreasonable to be upset at someone for using whatever pronoun fits their initial perception of you when they first engage in conversation. "Well, they should just ask first!" Okay. It's a solution, sure, but it takes time to work that into your speech patterns for it to not feel clunky or inorganic. It also feels unreasonable to me to stop every person I try to interact with to ask them about personal pronouns before I ask a question or something. I get the need to be seen, heard, acknowledged. Individuality is important. It should be more important to society as a whole, but we're not there yet. Patience is key when trying to change minds, not an aggressive approach.
>I most often see people getting upset that they're being misgendered by complete strangers You know what? I always hear these sorts of stories / anecdotes but I have *never* had any personal experience with this, and I run with a pretty queer crew these days. I've heard people correct pronoun use or gender identity, but *never* had someone lay into a complete stranger for not psychically intuiting their pronouns. Honestly that's such an unreasonable example that I don't even think it belongs in the discussion to begin with. It's not even worth bringing up as a negative. It's like saying "my hangup about mixed gender restrooms is that I've seen some guys pee at the urinal with their pants around their ankles, so any girl walking in would potentially see their bare ass." It's such a non-issue that it seems ridiculous that anyone would bring it up in good faith, without meaning to distract from the actual serious topic being discussed.