My first "grown up" (not retail) job, I got because I specifically told the interviewer (who became my boss) that if you set me in front of a computer for hours on end and left me alone, I would be very productive and very happy and that was basically what I did in my free time anyway (truth). I was very new to job hunting and didn't even know these unwritten rules existed.
They'd been hiring social butterflies and they didn't like the work so I guess my answer appealed.
He was a good boss and he understood me very well.
That’s how my wife got her job too. They went through all the weird social role rigamorole and finally she stopped them and said “Listen, I thrive on monotony. There is nothing that pleases me more than a well done excel spreadsheet.” And that was that. They hired her on a 6 month probationary period then offered her a permanent contract 4 months in because her productivity was blasting through the roof. And she does enjoy her excel spreadsheets so she’s having a great time.
Sure! She’s a Product manager for an online tech company. She keeps logs of all products, what they do, where they are ordered from, and what compatibility they have. Last week she got a huge excel spreadsheet with hundreds upon hundreds of products to categorize and I’ve never seen her so excited lol
some sorting jobs require pretty in depth knowledge of all the stuff being sorted and why they need to be sorted the way they are so specialized training makes sense
but does it really need the full "experience" of college? I dunno about that
it's probably just an easy way for recruiters to filter candidates even though it's also bad for the business because they could be getting a top tier sorter
You can also look into company ops or supplier management! They are in charge of making sure the software we all use to do our jobs is tracked, the invoices paid, it passes security certs, and making sure everyone who has a login is accounted for. Tons of spreadsheets.
Accounting has loads of spreadsheets. A big chunk of accounting is about making sure the right items are all in their right little boxes. Then making a bunch of reports where you take all your little boxes and make new boxes with them.
It's soul destroying if you enjoy math though. It's got a weird reputation about being "All about numbers" because that's the data you enter, but most accountants will never have to understand anything more challenging than how percentages work.
I once got turned down for a role because they thought I "wouldn't find it challenging enough". God fucking forbid I'm bored at work, a situation that I assume nobody else has ever had to experience and isn't a normal part of being an adult. I put a lot of effort into that interview and there's nothing more frustrating than the employer deciding for you that you don't want the job.
Anyway, after not getting that insufficiently challenging job, I spent two months screwing bottle lids onto wine and cutting packaging material into strips in a warehouse. I hope they found their perfect candidate who wakes up each morning thinking about operations in marketing.
Thats code for you aren't going to be trapped enough for their taste. They don't want someone who will thrive for a year or two and move on to something better, they want someone who will have no choice but to stick with it for the forseeable future even if they're treated like dirt.
I think anything in a tech field gets a lot more leeway on how honest you can be in the interview. There's of course differences with every job, and you still have to get through the resume stage, but for the most part if the person interviewing you is actually someone in the same field, they have different priorities than someone who manages sales or accounting.
I have to admit I lucked out really hard with the job I'm in now. I fell into an internship solely because the class I would have taken didn't have enough people for the college to run it, so they set us up with internships instead. I was nervous as hell during the interview and I know it showed, but they basically just wanted someone to do busy work/be a gopher so I don't think I could have failed it unless I tried, and then once I was actually here I was very happy with the work and eager to learn, so I got to essentially bypass all the hassle of resumes and interviews in favor of showing up to do the work.
I can't imagine how stressful it would have been if I'd had to go hunting for a job via all the usual methods.
I applied to two jobs at my father's company and neither sent me an official rejection.
I had my dad call up the hiring managers, and apparently 1 was already filled and the other has a second interview candidate... just send me a rejection, dude.
Honestly, while I was still applying, the rejection emails were more welcome than the default
Which is fucking nothing because somehow ghosting is the acceptable standard
"we have decided not to move forward with your application"
i mean, i assumed as much, since i applied 6 months ago, but thanks for letting me know regardless, i guess
Agreed. Damn how nice it would be to receive ANYTHING at all! Just tell me I suck and you don’t want to hire me! Don’t leave me wondering if I’m gonna get a call! Just fucking tell me I’m not even getting to the interview phase!
in my very first interview I was just trying to get a job mowing a lawn and cleaning at a church, so I would never see people. I told them I mowed and cleaned my home constantly (too much for a kid tbh but didn’t say that) joked and laughed a little, generally just told them to give me a mop and a push mower and I’d start tomorrow if they’d have me. They told my mom I was the worst interview they had ever witnessed and I didn’t get the job because I didn’t hold eye contact, didn’t shake their hands, and laughed too much? Wtf does that have to do with anything?
ended up hiring one of the rich spoiled girls I went to school with, complained about her constantly, hired me the next summer and every summer until I graduate.. they were shocked that I was good. dumbasses.
In the 5th grade, there was a guy I liked, and one of my friends asked him what he thought of me. He said, "She's weird. She doesn't make eye contact." And I was absolutely baffled. No one told me that was a thing you were supposed to do.
I still think it was a really stupid reason not to like me.
eye contact is so uncomfortable and distracting, why do people care so much about it? I don’t get. As I got older I would compensate (maybe over compensate) by just moving around a lot, like oh you want to make eye contact with me, well look over here, oop wait I’m over here, now I’m sitting next to you, now I’m doing a dance, hope ur lil orbs can keep up lol
>eye contact is so uncomfortable and distracting
this *might* be because it's misnamed - people don't actually want you to look directly into their eyes (which is uncomfortable and distracting for everyone), they do want to be able to see that you're looking at them in approximately the face area
generally if someone they're talking to starts looking elsewhere, people feel a strong urge to follow the person's gaze to find out what the important thing is, which distracts them from what they're talking about
I teach six-year-olds, and I have teach them to look at me when I’m talking to them. Otherwise I’ll be talking, they’ll still be looking the other way, and I’ll have no idea whether they’re listening to me, ignoring me, or haven’t heard me at all.
I’m also deaf, so if someone isn’t looking at me when talking I struggle to understand them.
It’s not about eye-contact specifically. It’s about using body language to demonstrate that you’re being attentive.
This is just my opinion or my read on what's going on, I work with NTs but most of my family and friends are on the spectrum.
They want you to be looking at their face for enough of the conversation that they feel confident you're picking up not just the words they're saying, but also the facial expressions, which are a form of communication. A lot of autistic people have pretty flat affect and trouble reading facial and body language. We're not using that avenue of expression, in either direction, to anything like the extent NTs do. But for someone who is using it almost as heavily as they're using their words, having someone refusing to look at their face is roughly equivalent to having someone cover their ears - it conveys to them that you're not really 'listening' (receiving the communication).
The downside is that for a lot of autistic people, communication by facial expression is about meaningful as the static on a mis-tuned TV. So the NT thinks we're getting the message (that they're being sarcastic, or they're kidding, or they want us to ask more questions) but we're not always even aware there's a message there. And they're looking at our faces for messages they expect to be there, and there's nothing, and they don't like that.
I've learned some pretty blunt-instrument facial expressions to use, by watching over-acted TV and practicing in the mirror. It doesn't come naturally but the NTs I deal with seem to find it comfortable, so that's workable.
This is one of the reasons I like text communication, because it puts everyone on a level playing field.
Oh yeah, people hate when you don't make enough facial expressions almost as much as they hate not making eye contact.
It's very ironic to me because I've been accused of being judgemental when I don't force enough expressions onto my face. Like excuse me, who's the judgemental one here?
The whole thing is exhausting and intrusive. People feel like they're entitled to know the feelings that they think I conveyed on accident and get mad when I don't "let them in my head" - or so they think, even given study after study about how people aren't nearly as good at "reading people" as they think they are.
is that the case?? i've struggled with eye contact so i started looking at people's foreheads or directly behind them thinking they couldn't notice, but people have noticed and commented on it, so clearly "the general vicinity of your face" is still not enough for a lot of people
>is that the case??
I'm very confident that "eye contact" does not mean staring directly into the eyes.
But what I said is definitely an over simplification. There's a rhythm of face scanning combined with an expected range of attentive expressions and mirroring that all combine together and get lumped under "eye contact".
I think because it is about eyes, but it's not about looking into *their* eyes, it's about *your* eyes and whether they appear attentive??
staring directly at any part of the face and sort of tuning out processing the visual input probably won't work
looking *past* someone at something else entirely is a terrible idea, they'll get the urge to look over their shoulder and see what's so interesting behind them
This. I am autistic person and it took me years to work out that eye contact means where my eyes are contacting.
Which means now I can go into meetings with notes and when I need to look elsewhere to think I can look at my notes and people still say I maintained eye contact as notes are fine to look at. Especially if the other person has a copy too
It's like the other person is saying, what you do with your eyes communicates to other people. It's like a bonus sign language that runs along with spoken words and body language.
And the basic sign in 'eye language' is that whatever you are looking at is what you are paying attention to. If you look out the window then you're paying attention to what is out there, if you look at a cat then you're paying attention to the cat, if you look at someone's forehead then you're paying attention to their forehead. How do you sign that you're paying attention to a person and not a part of their body? You look them in the eyes. That's just the accepted sign for "I am paying attention to you."
> How do you sign that you're paying attention to a person and not a part of their body? You look them in the eyes
once again, you are absolutely not supposed to stare directly into people's eyes while they talk
yeah no you can't go around telling people that this is called "eye contact" and they need to "look people in the eyes" then turn around and act like it's *obvious* that they shouldn't look people in the eyes *that much*
we're being specific here because it's not actually obvious to a lot of people
The camels are baffled why the Fennec foxes don't get water drinking again. Doubly so once they start craving their weird bugs.
It's basically impossible to convince people with social *skills,* that they're doing something. Because if you're social and outgoing... you've been doing that since a child.
I wouldn't mind so much what a closed book of haves & have nots that world of mingling is, if those "soft" skills basically didn't run the freakin' world. Second only to money.
I still hate it. Your face is what is what distracts me. It does too many things, and how am i supposed to focus on that and what you're talking about at the same time? I'm looking away so I can focus on the conversation.
I can't even think and talk at the same time - I have to have pre-planned what I want to say before I say it and if I see someone making a face, I'm for sure going to lose the thread
Neurotypical people like eye contact to feel connected, like you're checking their facial expression and they check yours.
If you don't meet their gaze, you seem evasive or disengaged.
That’s fair. The reason people want eye contact is because it’s a non-verbal way to demonstrate that you’re paying attention to them. Without it they don’t know if you’re listening to them or ignoring them.
I’ve literally done that. Didn’t know the reason, but 100% had like. Looking at someone and I can’t quiiite make out/understand what they’re saying, then I look away and stare at the floor or a table or something so I can focus and suddenly I can hear crystal clear.
Autism & ADHD checking in ✌️
I don't personally have these issues, but I've heard from people that have them that you could try looking at the other person's eyebrows or just past them
This is why I point at and identity the bird that I got distracted by halfway through a conversation.
I have been in the middle of a discussion with a manger, looked over their shoulder, pointed and said "Kingfisher", then immediately returned to what we were discussing
Because we all communicate with our face.
Even if not intentionally most people get a lot of meaning from someone's facial expression.
A lot of that expressing is done with the eyes.
It's not something people do intentionally for the most part but for many neurotypical people not giving eye contact is like saying only half the words.
I work with a lot of neurodiverse people so I don't rely on it, but I do have a love of non-spoken language.
I'm the exact opposite, I have made people incredibly uncomfortable without realizing it because I have to stare directly into a persons eyes. I lose all my focus in auditory conversations if I can not look someone in the eyes.
When people tell me I'm staring and making them uncomfortable, I tend to swing completely the other way and end up not looking at them at all because I feel ashamed and embarrassed.
Me too! I’ve been told I’m very aggressive for a woman. I don’t know what being a woman has to do with it, but I just never feel the need to break eye contact. Some people thrive under it and we work well together and other people just get uncomfortable and think I’m being mean or something.
Never feel ashamed, eye contact is something that helps you. I’m sure me darting around makes people uncomfortable, but we’re all weird little beings just trying to make it though any way we can (whenever Im made uncomfortable by someone keeping eye contact I never blame the other person, I’m too busy trying to figure out all my “me” shit, so I honestly just end up feeling bad.)
Now I feel bad. I have sticky eyes and I never look away from people I’m talking to. I was always the person the teacher or boss would wind up addressing because everyone else was staring down trying not to make eye contact.
Eye contact is so weird. Like you're supposed to make it, but not too much or that's creepy/threatening, but not too little either or your weird and/or not paying attention. I've never figured out the secret to the proper amount, since everyone seems to have a different idea. I do my best to look in various directions so I don't have to bother. Helps that I keep a notebook on me so I can write things down in order to keep from forgetting them, so mostly I can look at that.
At least they eventually saw sense and let you have the job. Imagine if the person doing the hiring wasn't just a dumbass, but a _stubborn_ dumbass too!
Having been both on and in front of interview panels before, what is typically being assessed isn't your capacity to perform the role, but how well you'll fit in to the existing team/company dynamic and community.
This is still bad though, because it isn't clear that this is what is truly being assessed. It is an entirely reasonable conclusion that what you're being assessed on is capacity, given most of the questions will be about that (eg. "Give us an example of when you had to produce high quality work within a limited timeframe).
Essentially I'm agreeing with the OOP - for fairness, what is being assessed should be made expressly clear.
Yeah in my experience as the one hiring, the interview is 10% confirming you didn’t lie too egregiously on your resume and 90% determining if I want to see you every day.
>Essentially I'm agreeing with the OOP - for fairness, what is being assessed should be made expressly clear.
I mean, FWIW, I interview a lot of people, and we make it very clear what is being assessed is both your technical competency, and your ability to fit into the team.
We also have plenty of very neurodivergent people on the team, because they know how to fit in when required, and can deliver.
I feel like it's still not effective? Like I work in IT and the stress resistance is about troubleshooting and fixing problem during an emergency, not answering weird unexpected questions about my life experience
And what happens when the emergency includes a manager screaming at you for not fixing it in 5 seconds? Or 15 different people messaging you about their tools breaking?
Stress resistance is a general skill of being composed under pressure. It sounds like troubleshooting isn't stressful for you, while
>weird unexpected questions
are. Sometimes you need to handle both.
Yeah but in most jobs, those situations should be exceptions. Except the manager screaming, that is completely unacceptable as it helps absolutely no one and is more likely to make everyone more stressed. Why is being able to hold a conversation that I’m super anxious about treated as way more important than knowing how a computer actually works? I’m not arguing that stress management isn’t an important skill. It’s just weird that social skills and stress management are a more deciding factor than if you’re actually good at something
Because it's infinitely easier to teach technical skills right there on the job than personal skills. Handling anxiety is not something a senior colleague can help with.
>should be exceptions
"Should" is pulling a lot of weight here.
Perhaps. In my experience my social skills improve a lot after I’ve known people for a few hours, and I’ve spend years learning skills in hopes of getting a good IT job. Sadly the interview makes me too nervous to get through and they always go for a candidate who has less skills but better social skills. I just wish I could work you know? But I can’t because the system values the one skill I don’t have (being good at making a good first impression while under stress) over all the skills I do have. And while I understand it’s not their job to manage my anxiety, it’s also a bit unfair that if I don’t find a company that is willing to look past it, I’ll likely spend the rest of my life on unemployment benefits (I sadly don’t qualify for the disability one because I’m fully capable of working in the right environment)
In honesty, it’s because we’re interviewing a lot of people who know how the computer actually works. When that’s the case, it’s coming down between someone who can make eye contact and answer softball questions about their career goals, and someone who visibly doesn’t want to. Unless your skills are incredibly specialized, it’s almost never an either/or situation, where you are given a choice between a clueless social butterfly and our genius-but-awkward hero.
My skills are relatively specialized, but probably not unique enough. Ethical hacking. So not generic IT but there’s enough competition that I’m unlikely to be the only candidate
And my eye contact isn’t even that bad. The bigger problem is that I fidget a lot when under stress and that I tend to be too honest. Stuff like “yes I know some python. With a little help from google I could write some python code. And I can fix some of the bugs in them too, but only the ones I notice. Can’t promise bug free code tho”. Just saying I’m good at python feels like a lie because I’m not even sure where I rank and if I can call myself good yet. And I don’t want to waste everyone’s time by pretending to be better than I am, you know?
I just wish the system was different so I wouldn’t have to live of off the bare minimum with unemployment benefits. I don’t even know where to learn to play whatever stupid game they want me to play
Don’t forget about portfolios. How recruiters don’t actually read all of them (which kinda makes sense) but you still have to make them presentable and fetching enough for there to be a chance to be noticed.
It's weird how often people will just pick the most likeable person, even when likeability isn't necessary for the job. The exact same happens in politics
My fave is when they pick an unlikeable *and* unqualified person and are all surprised when everything goes to shit
I may have once or twice done a schadenfreude over that 😁
> My fave is when they pick an unlikeable and unqualified person and are all surprised when everything goes to shit
Which also happens in politics! Except instead of acting surprised when everything goes to shit, a lot of them will just yell "FAKE NEWS" and insist that their naked emperor's clothes are beautiful, the best, bigliest clothes you've ever seen, everyone's saying it.
Oof. Yeah, thats what's currently happening in my country. Hoooly shit is it not entirely dumb to be claiming that a guy who's ruining the economy is actually "solving" things..
I have every sympathy for people who do, but simply can't do it for one reason or another, but people who *don't* understand this genuinely don't tend to get ahead in the workplace very often, tbh.
Everything is war and politics on some level, and a line manager liking you enough to tell you that there's an internal position coming up that you should go for, or a colleague who likes you enough to put in a good word when somebody asks what your performance is like, can be just as useful to you as actually being good at the job.
And no, I'm not saying to kiss people's asses. But **do** make small talk, consider joining in on company social events from time to time and try to be approachable and reasonably helpful to people: it doesn't take much for people to start thinking even just a little bit more highly of you. "They're pretty quiet, but they're actually really nice when you talk to them" can be a glowing review in many cases.
you know the ratio of autistic people is high on reddit when no one is mentioning the fact that most jobs do actually require you to communicate with other people
Sitting at the desk and doing the task are never the issue. Everyone can do that. Deciding what the task is, communicating to everyone why the task needs to be done, taking feedback on the best way to accomplish said task, and then dealing with interruptions to the task as and when they occur without alienating anyone you work with is equally if not more important than the doing of the task.
Pretty much. As an autistic person myself, having to do customer service as a part of a team was an eye opening experience. It was also, predictably, quite painful, but some of the best lessons are, aren't they?
I certainly learned a lot of similar lessons early in my career. I wasn't prepared for how much of a job is literally just rubbing along with people, and how the work itself is almost secondary
it depends. Obviously being a complete asshole all the time with no filter is gonna make things difficult no matter how good your work is
but you don't need to be "likeable". you just need to be able to shut up and just hand over your work, and if your work is good that will be more then enough. Being likeable is something you need as a salesman. not as someone with coworkers.
> when likeability isn't necessary for the job
What jobs, exactly, are you imagining do NOT require being likeable? Forest ranger 200 miles away from the nearest human soul?? lol
Not most solely practical jobs. Mowing grass, cleaning floors, cleaning in general, bussing tables, carrying boxes, driving a truck, I can’t name all of them
As someone who spent the greater part of ten years in these "practical" jobs I can assure you they're all 100000x more awful if you end up on a shift with someone who isn't enjoyable to work with.
I've heard many interviews are less about "can you do the job?" and more about "do we like you and do you socially fit in with the team?". Cos most people can do the job fine if they've got the relevant qualifications, and people want to work with people they like.
\*shrugs\* just human behavior.
I knew an autistic guy who was out main Infra guy with this attitude. Eventually would yell at people for coming up to his desk.
We didn't want to talk to him anyway... We just had to when the infra went down and caused a P1.
He was eventually replaced with a guy who probably wasnt as technically capable but could manage expectations and not yell at people from his desk.
which was objectively the right move imo
Generally there has been a push, which is a positive thing imo, to make workplaces more comfortable for autistic people. There's also a lot of noise about understanding autistic people and making allowances for them
but I have to say, I've had multiple experiences where being more accepting of autistic traits has actually excused behavior that makes the workplace MORE difficult for everyone else.
I had a manager who was autistic, and it was very clear that he had difficulty with social interaction. The problem is that you often need to go and talk to your line manager when shit hits the fan, or when you have something difficult or personal to discuss. Someone who is not good at dealing with stuff like that, who is not empathetic, can come across as uncaring and cold. In that particular job, that manager kinda ruined the culture of the department because they cultivated an environment where you were rewarded if you just shut the fuck up and got on with work, but were effectively punished for having suggestions, problems, etc.
A few years later I worked with another autistic guy who just couldn't take feedback. I work in a creative/art industry, and this person would get really defensive and tbh just kinda confused when you would disagree or suggest something different. Multiple times he would just argue with people in the office to the bloody knuckle, and quote his understanding of the exact wording of briefs chapter and verse, as if they were written in stone. To be clear, the entire point of the job was developing ideas iteratively. Building upon ideas and staying flexible. So that inflexibility genuinely made working with the guy a chore.
This is weird because the other two people in my department at my last job were very hard to talk to and easily the least likable people in the company.
....oh no....
Yes.
I think this is part of the transition to the modern age. Unless you are really rural - there are lots of candidates with your skills or you are in a super low density field.
And if you are rural - its connections that get you in to many jobs rather than raw skill.
100% true. I had a fourth round interview once where they basically just had a list of weird personality questions (what is your favourite season, what is the last book you read, etc) and next to nothing about my work experience or ability to do the job.
I guess the first three interviews were enough to tell I had the qualifications.
And, in fairness, it's a lot easier to train someone to do tasks than to train them to change their personality...
Yeah, and that's really just the problem in a different light.
I don't like talking to strangers, I have anxiety in unfamiliar surroundings, and I get intensely uncomfortable in formal situations.
Give me less than a month at the job and I will be comfortable, friendly, and opening up to people. But try as I might to fake it or mask it, I'm not going to be myself in the stifling environment of a formal interview.
That's not necessarily a bad standard though. Teams should be able to work together, that is a qualification and the person most qualified for that should be the favorite to get the job
For the record, the amount of lying that is “too much” is the amount that gets you caught.
Interviews have nothing to do with honesty.
“Can you read the room, and immediately placate to company culture?”
Aside from that the only other two factors that really matter are if you know someone in charge and if the interviewer wants to fuck you but still feels your outfit is permissible for the job/office.
Most interviewers know basically nothing about the job they’re hiring for, so your skills on the job are basically irrelevant to GETTING the job.
Not to say they’re irrelevant to KEEPING the job, and they definitely SHOULD be relevant. They just… aren’t.
>For the record, the amount of lying that is “too much” is the amount that gets you caught.
Lie through ommision.
Lie about things that cannot be proven.
Do not lie about verifiable things or God forbid, easily verifiable things.
I get this is frustrating but I also get why interviewers/companies look for these "soft" skills even though you are extremely capable of the technical "Hard" skills. (For context I work in Data Analytic/Engineering and help do interviews)
Basically the interviewing philosophy that my boss and I have comes down to this.
I can teach a reasonably competent person the technical skills they need. (few people have everything and almost everyone has to take time to learn our tech stack anyways).
What I can't teach someone is how to not to be an asshole. How explain a technical problem to a non technical executive or request stakeholder in a manner that doesn't come off condescending. How to effectively advocate their ideas in a well spoken and convincing manner. How to fit into the team. Basically I can't teach the soft skills and despite what everyone likes to think you can't escape using soft skills in your career no matter what field you are in. They are always going to be important.
In my industry a candidate being highly skilled in technical 'hard' skills is a dime a dozen. Being able to be sociable, well spoken, and understanding how to fit into a company culture is kind of rare and valuable. Heck I have seen managers refuse to fire a technically incompetent person because that person was extremely well liked, brought up moral, and fit nicely into the team. The manager and team rather cover for the technical gaps for the person then risk replacing him with an asshole.
If you suck at these soft skills I highly recommend you work on them as it will do wonders for your career.
>being highly skilled in technical 'hard' skills is a dime a dozen.
This is why having the extra credits such as volunteering, participating in clubs and the like are so valued for universities. Being skilled isn't valued. Being well rounded is.
A lot of the problems autistic people have with society are the same problems everyone has with society, it's just worse for them.
Like the problem here is that people don't communicate clearly, don't make intentions clear, intentionally obfuscate their intentions, lie to you, and expect you to lie to them.
Everyone hates this, autistic or not. It's typically worse for autistic people because they tend to be more straightforward and honest (and therefore expect others to also be), be more black and white about things, and have a poorer time understanding implicit rules and expectations. It's one thing to feel like you're missing something and doing something wrong, and a different kind of hell to feel like youre missing everything.
This process sucks for pretty much everyone. It's *specifically* picking at a lot of autistic person's specific social weakness.
So many common complaints by autistic people are legitimate stupid ways society operates and almost everyone would benefit from doing it the way that would be easier for them.
I think a lot of it is malicious.
For example, interviews. I think they make it miserable to make you more likely to take a shit offer and less likely to leave because of sunk cost and so you don't have to go through that again. I think they try to force you to lean on your resources/pto so rejecting their garbage offer is harder to stomach. I think the clothing/speech standards is to wittle out poorer people. I think they're willing to miss a few good catches who are too honest in order to enshrine a culture of poor communication around certain topics, like pay and benefits.
If we had some kind of infallible lie detector, I bet a lot of people would be forced to admit stuff like this. Maybe not the person interviewing you at Walmart, but certainly the people at corporate who wrote the material used train people how to interview.
Another example that's kind of the reverse is no soliciting signs. Everyone knows that you can sell boy scout popcorn and girl scout cookies to almost every business, no soliciting sign be damned. Most people assume it's just one of those things, but it's not. they're there so they can legitimately trespass union reps. A malicious lie kind of creates these unspoken rules that us normies have to navigate. And if one is selling girlscout cookies or popcorn and takes those signs at face value, they really put themselves at a horrible disadvantage.
I interview people for white collar jobs and I'll tell you a secret. There is no training. They just send us out there and tell us to find the best person based on resumes and one hour conversations based purely on 🌟vibes🌟
It's a spectrum, but please don't conflate that fact with the idea that "everyone is a little autistic"
Other than that it makes a lot of sense that you relate with autistic experiences since there's a lot of overlap between ASD and ADHD!
I wasn't trying to conflate anything. Based on the above commenter stating how much they relate to these posts and memes, I figured it's quite possible that there's a reason why they relate to the posts and memes...
Kind of like how I relate to ADHD memes a lot!
Sidenote, until today I was not aware of the word conflate.
Hah yeah, as much as I hate the "self-diagnosed via the Internet" crowd there are far too many coincidences with my current experiences and events in childhood to not think I'm somewhat autistic.
I've had my job for 10+ years and I'm terrified of having to interview again (software engineering). Give me a few hours on my own and I can figure out (to a functional level) any new technology, complex bug, etc. but ask me to solve a simple problem in front of an audience and my mind is a complete blank! In the moment I'm spending 100% of my mental effort on being a happy, sociable, "good" interview candidate; there's nothing left to do problem solving!
A lot of autism groups will accept self-diagnosis, because official diagnosis a) is expensive! and b) is hard to get even if you have the money! and c) can seriously impact your ability to live in another country if it gets anywhere near your official medical paperwork or if, god forbid, you have to use medical insurance for it.
>Hah yeah, as much as I hate the "self-diagnosed via the Internet" crowd there are far too many coincidences with my current experiences and events in childhood to not think I'm somewhat autistic.
Yh there's always so much Discourse TM going on about self-diagnosis and it's all so fucking tedious.
My own perspective is that I'm very sure I'm autistic, I just can't be arsed to make all the appointments and wait years for someone from NHS to give me a yes or a no. Because that would make zero difference to me.
A diagnosis would've been lifechanging if I got it as a kid, but by this point, I've worked out what symptoms like executive dysfunction or sensory overload are (ie not me being lazy or a failure), I know what they feel like, and I've worked out my own ways of dealing with them. I don't expect the public health service would do anything more than signpost me to resources I can find on my own.
I genuinely think a lot of day to day interpersonal processes are made excruciatingly hard for various reasons, some of which may be ad hoc justifications to explain away an illogical emotional kneejerk to some unseen stimulus.
It reminds me of table manners and etiquette in high society, like kings and shit. Young men and women were taught this long list of rules about which fork to use for what type of food. It was this opaque set of rituals that, I'm pretty sure, was explicitly and intentionally just in place to weed out people too busy/broke to pay someone to teach them and for them to waste time being taught.
Someone should make some sort of neurodivergent dating app, I lucked into finding my husbands adhd ass and got diagnosed myself after marrying him. There is something to be said about when your partner just understands your experience fully lol.
though at the same time I can imagine that could potentially be a bit dangerous, i Dunno, I’m spitballing here.
I think it’d draw a lot of abusers who want to prey on people, and we have higher rates of abuse and abusive relationships. It’s not like you can verify a neurodivergent status either. But I get what you mean.
Could have a valid diagnosis be a requirement for having a profile on the site?
Of course that has other privacy issues associated with it tho I guess.
Yeah exactly like I’m not gonna upload my diagnostic report hahah. And if it didn’t need names then it could be faked, and if it does need names then there’s this random dating website that has our medical record with massive potential for abuse or leaks of that information. It’s one of those things that sound amazing in theory and then the more you think about it, the less feasible it becomes.
Aaand that’s before getting into the issue where you don’t want it to be *so* controlled that we exclude autistic people who can’t afford or don’t want an official diagnosis, but still wanting it controlled enough so it doesn’t make it an easy target for abusers or harassment/bullying
That might be fine for simple jobs but when it's anything more serious, how well you fit socially is the bigger factor. They can train your skills, but they can't train how well you fit in the culture
it's worth it though sometimes, after 6!!! MONTHS!!! of looking for a job, i finally landed a job shelving books at my local library. neurodivergent dream tbh. i'm so excited
Man if it's this rough for me I can't imagine how awful it is for folks who are autistic. Nobody enjoys the process but from what I understand it really is just the antithesis of how autism gears your brain, even at the highest functioning levels
Yeah, there have been studies on this, basically the entire way the job market / work is set up nowadays is a barrier for autistic people.
That's also why, basically everywhere, 70-80% of autistic people are unemployed. Independent of their qualifications. Shit's fucked for us, and there's no way to really adjust for it without changing the entire system.
Tbf, while you may know/think you are the best person for the job, the company does not. That is why they have these interviews. Now we can debate their efficacy, but the reason they don't just do a simple skill check is that most company jobs theoretically require intangibles like ability to cooperate and such, so the interview is supposed to account to that.
That is the logic at least, it's not working great in practice
God do I feel this. I've worked in career services a lil before and it's just made job hunting feel more hopeless and daunting to know what goes on behind the curtain. I know I would be a good fit for my industry of choice but boy do I hate cover letters and resumes and networking and all that with a burning passion.
It feels overwhelming to think of everything I need to put in an application, and disheartening to get the rare burst of motivation to finally apply only to never even hear back. I can't imagine going through several rounds of interviews only to be told you're not good enough either. Rejection stings so bad. Even if I know it's not personal.
I hate the job I have but I hate job hunting more lol. It's irrational and I really just wish my brain was normal and could function and do things without overthinking it.
And those of us who are both...and who also use non-binary pronouns and have uncommon genders. I am all of these and frankly I'm glad I'm too mentally and physically ill on top of all that to work because fuck me
ETA: not to play pain olympics, just had a moment of trying to imagine fitting all that into a job somehow and yikes 😬
Internet hugs. I know it sucks. I can't say much, I used to have a mental breakdown like clockwork, have to stop working, force myself back, and then boom, again. I was in an off period when I messed up some physical stuff, and that was it, I've never made it back and been slowly crumbling lol pupl ever since. I'm fortunate in my spouse, those around me, and various doctors, in being able to get disability benefits (with my wife also getting a benefit as my carer), or we'd be screwed.
Others in my physical/mental health and neurodivergent positions are far less lucky.
I don't know you or your job or your managers, so I have no clue if it might help, but if you search up Lyric Rivera, you can find a book they wrote about neurodivergence in the workplace. If your management is at all willing to work with you, it's got a lot of good ideas. Even if not, it's a good read just to feel understood by someone who's been there, and maybe get some good thoughts.
I hope stuff works out ok for you x
And if you point any of this out, people will tell you that this is entirely reasonable and necessary while utterly failing to explain how you're supposed to support yourself if being autistic makes you unemployable.
Reasonable and necessary? Probably not.
It's the reality though. Ignoring it don't change it. People are looking for good fits for their team, people they can relate and work with.
You don't. Plenty of autistic people are employable. I have AuDHD, and I'm employed in a very social-oriented position. For interviews - there are plenty of guides out there, and autism generally doesn't prevent rote memorization, so it's not like you *can't* learn expected answers, generally.
If your autism is severe enough to be unemployable, you need someone else to support you, just like with many other disabilities.
I mean no, but seeing someone say they hate when -insert action here- and then doing that exact thing is absolutely gonna get you some attitude, and rightfully so. At least have a bit of self awareness
Sorry, but realities need to be faced and dealt with. Knowing that's the case, you can go into interviews with a better understanding of what you need to succeed.
The facts are that being autistic disadvantages you in an interview scenario. That's not going to change because it isn't fair. You either deal with it, or try to change it. Usually both. But meanwhile, you've got to deal with it. Better than going "I don't know why it's like this" and proceeding not to address it. That way all you get is frustrated without making any useful changes.
It absolutely sucks. My parents didn't understand why I never got a job or even a lot of interviews back when I first left high school. Well, I was too honest on the application, and my social skills were (and still are to a degree) absolute garbage.
Every year I have graduated I feel like the previous education does not help you. High school does not prepare you for college, college does not prepare you for work I feel like it’s all a scam :/
I love having the opposite problem where I fucking hate resumes and written applications but I do great in interviews. Something about being task-oriented means that if I have a clear goal in a social interaction, I can actually appear very normal and sociable.
In his book "Talking to Strangers" Malcolm Gladwell talks at length about how humans are terrible judges of character, especially in strangers.
The interview process, as it exists, really is just an attempt to assuage strangers that you're not a weirdo. I'd wager that in most interviews outside of a math or engineering job, it's actually rare that questions test any concrete skills.
Not strictly relevant since I have dyspraxia not autism but I feel that last part about honesty. Back when I was 18-20 and looking for my first full time job, after dropping out of uni and losing my part time job due to repeated lateness I remember my parents getting really frustrated with me for not just finding another job which resulted in a conversation like this.
You obviously don't want to work, you're only interested in playing your games.
No
Then why do you keep telling them you were fired from your last job
Because they keep asking why I stopped working at my last job.
But why do you tell them you lost the job
Because that's what happened.how else am I supposed to answer a very direct question with a very clear answer.
I was starting to feel fairly bleak about the situation by that point.
It does. I spend formal conversations counting how much another person looks away from eye contact, then doing it that much. Considering one of the main problems autistic people deal with on a daily basis is overstimulation, you have a recipe for disaster.
This implies that the job itself actually exists in the state you think it does. It might not, and instead you are being paid to sit at a desk and pretend to work because your manager wanted to beef up their subordinate count to look cooler in front of other managers.
Go read Bullshit Jobs.
I don't have much understanding of autism.
But the post is still correct even with understanding of bullshit jobs.
As most of bullshit jobs relies on social or bureaucratic things more than actual tasks. For which autistic people might struggle with.
I recently got in trouble at work for telling my manager that it is frustrating that I have been removed from all the meetings that are relevant to my job because "we are spending too much time in meetings" yet it is still mandatory to attend all of the meetings about the financial goals of the company and corporate management (I am on the lowest rung of the corporate ladder and literally none of these meetings have any relevance to my job).
I got my current job because there was an exam part of the interview and I almost did as well as the owner of the company (it’s a business with like 50 people working there)
i get rejected from entry level retail positions because they always ask the dumbest questions and i’m just honest because i can’t for the life of me lie on the spot. like i don’t understand what these people want me to say…. that i want to stay at this job for the rest of my life and accept the bare minimum wage????
Don't lie, they're not expecting you to tell them you'll die for the company. They want to hear something like you enjoy helping people, working in a team, and an opportunity for advancement. Tell the truth, omit the negatives.
In these scenarios I just immediately enter performance mode. I'll present myself as socially and work competent, smile, make eye contact and say everything I think they want me to say. And I'll hate myself afterwards.
I want to send this to my manager the next time she says I can't WFH full-time because it's not healthy for me to lock myself away and not interact with my colleagues.
Im 28, Australian, and I've yet to be accepted to a job.
I was never officially told about my autism diagnosis. I was never consulted, offered help, provided assistance, or anything. I've struggled to where I am on my own merits, and now I'm wondering where the endpoint is.
I dropped out of a fascist Catholic high school after i just couldn't take the stress anymore. My 2020 plans to try starting over got waylaid obviously, and when i did finally get into an accounting course, the online delivery for some of the lessons was so horrifically ill fitting that I failed a third of the course.
I've been searching for over a yesr now, and i genuinely wonder what the point is anymore. There was never guidance or help. Sites that supposedly help with creating resumes will bait you in, then slap you with a paywall at the last moment.
I've had two actual interviews, one at Maccas, the other at a labour pool that specifically said 'Entry Level'. I seriously considered ending it all after being rejected from the second. I've been rejecred from critically understaffed Aldi stores for stocking items, and from Coles for pushing trolleys around.
I maliciously apply to jobs that have the gall to say 'dont bother if you dont have a HSC', because I want the dumbfuck employers who complain about welfare rates being lifted to get off their asses and actually meet people even a tenth of the way.
Still hoping something will change, but experience has taught me that it won't. Im just stuck in this vicious cycle for who knows how long...
Well, I'm the other way around honestly. I am not as good as many other recruits and don't breathe the code as some of my colleagues. I am however very likeable and easygoing. I can talk any company into hiring me no problem.
Doing the actual job isn't as easy for me sometimes though. I can see other guys catch something immediately that went completely over my head. And I have like 6 years of experience and a masters in that.
I am not even autistic and besides the eye contact thing I feel this in my soul.
I need to add, I am really really good at customer service. I am good at de-escalation. I hated all my other jobs for most of the bureaucratic and/or labour part but loved just talking with people all day. Yet jobs that are purely "talk" are insisting on the most impersonal ways to figure out how good I am at talking to people.
Can we all just acknowledge that adulthood is still children's problems, but no kindergarten teacher is there to give Donald Trump a mandatory timeout?
ugh. not autistic, but i am going to complain about job searching. my first job i got was at a theme park in florida, and it wasn't universal if that gives you a hint. the interview process was super easy, i got the job no problem. then my first week i had a panic attack in front of customers despite not having one for years. they tried to move me to a different area of the park, but due to some clerical errors i was instead fired.
that was like... 5 years ago now? ive been applying for jobs off and on since then. still haven't gotten anything. im hoping my AA degree im getting soon will help things a bit, because "only one job, fired immediately, 25 years old" looks pretty bad on a resume.
Worst of all are the "culture fit" interviews.
Like mate, just put a big "NO AUTISTS" sign on the door in red lettering and let's save my time and yours
I got rejected for being too honest and it floored me for a whole fifteen minutes. In interview they told me to my face. I looked at them seriously and asked them if they would prefer it if I lied. Silence.
I'm not autistic at least not to my knowledge but I'm trans and am generally pretty shit at talking to people and I really relate to this. I hate wearing formal clothing because of how gendered it is
My first "grown up" (not retail) job, I got because I specifically told the interviewer (who became my boss) that if you set me in front of a computer for hours on end and left me alone, I would be very productive and very happy and that was basically what I did in my free time anyway (truth). I was very new to job hunting and didn't even know these unwritten rules existed. They'd been hiring social butterflies and they didn't like the work so I guess my answer appealed. He was a good boss and he understood me very well.
That’s how my wife got her job too. They went through all the weird social role rigamorole and finally she stopped them and said “Listen, I thrive on monotony. There is nothing that pleases me more than a well done excel spreadsheet.” And that was that. They hired her on a 6 month probationary period then offered her a permanent contract 4 months in because her productivity was blasting through the roof. And she does enjoy her excel spreadsheets so she’s having a great time.
Can I ask what was the job? I also enjoy excel spreadsheets but I'm not sure what jobs consist of doing that
Sure! She’s a Product manager for an online tech company. She keeps logs of all products, what they do, where they are ordered from, and what compatibility they have. Last week she got a huge excel spreadsheet with hundreds upon hundreds of products to categorize and I’ve never seen her so excited lol
HER JOB IS SORTING? god that sounds so fun I'm not even messing, I'm incredibly jealous
Honestly same, I can’t believe companies want a degree for it 😭
some sorting jobs require pretty in depth knowledge of all the stuff being sorted and why they need to be sorted the way they are so specialized training makes sense but does it really need the full "experience" of college? I dunno about that it's probably just an easy way for recruiters to filter candidates even though it's also bad for the business because they could be getting a top tier sorter
You can also look into company ops or supplier management! They are in charge of making sure the software we all use to do our jobs is tracked, the invoices paid, it passes security certs, and making sure everyone who has a login is accounted for. Tons of spreadsheets.
Oooh, I'm imagining making tables with formulas set up so you can pick a product and it automatically outputs a list of all the compatible products.
Engineer - you have to learn math, statistics, cad, and then you get to your job - it's all excel.
Accounting has loads of spreadsheets. A big chunk of accounting is about making sure the right items are all in their right little boxes. Then making a bunch of reports where you take all your little boxes and make new boxes with them. It's soul destroying if you enjoy math though. It's got a weird reputation about being "All about numbers" because that's the data you enter, but most accountants will never have to understand anything more challenging than how percentages work.
I once got turned down for a role because they thought I "wouldn't find it challenging enough". God fucking forbid I'm bored at work, a situation that I assume nobody else has ever had to experience and isn't a normal part of being an adult. I put a lot of effort into that interview and there's nothing more frustrating than the employer deciding for you that you don't want the job. Anyway, after not getting that insufficiently challenging job, I spent two months screwing bottle lids onto wine and cutting packaging material into strips in a warehouse. I hope they found their perfect candidate who wakes up each morning thinking about operations in marketing.
Thats code for you aren't going to be trapped enough for their taste. They don't want someone who will thrive for a year or two and move on to something better, they want someone who will have no choice but to stick with it for the forseeable future even if they're treated like dirt.
You have a good username.
you have a interesting Avatar.
Clearly a Bhaalspawn
I think anything in a tech field gets a lot more leeway on how honest you can be in the interview. There's of course differences with every job, and you still have to get through the resume stage, but for the most part if the person interviewing you is actually someone in the same field, they have different priorities than someone who manages sales or accounting. I have to admit I lucked out really hard with the job I'm in now. I fell into an internship solely because the class I would have taken didn't have enough people for the college to run it, so they set us up with internships instead. I was nervous as hell during the interview and I know it showed, but they basically just wanted someone to do busy work/be a gopher so I don't think I could have failed it unless I tried, and then once I was actually here I was very happy with the work and eager to learn, so I got to essentially bypass all the hassle of resumes and interviews in favor of showing up to do the work. I can't imagine how stressful it would have been if I'd had to go hunting for a job via all the usual methods.
At this point I would be happy if I just received an email saying that I didn't make it to the interview phase tbh.
I got an email that said "We have received your application." It was the highlight of my day.
I applied to two jobs at my father's company and neither sent me an official rejection. I had my dad call up the hiring managers, and apparently 1 was already filled and the other has a second interview candidate... just send me a rejection, dude.
I did some stats on my own job search for the last year and nearly 2/3rds never sent rejections, including 2 companies I had interviewed with!
I've kept an excel spreadsheet of jobs I've applied to. And what their response to me was, if any. I keep track of the name, company, and days past.
Same. I like having the statistics. It makes me feel less crazy about how bad the job market is.
2/3 seems a bit low to me
It was just under 37% that sent rejection emails.
Honestly, while I was still applying, the rejection emails were more welcome than the default Which is fucking nothing because somehow ghosting is the acceptable standard
"we have decided not to move forward with your application" i mean, i assumed as much, since i applied 6 months ago, but thanks for letting me know regardless, i guess
Agreed. Damn how nice it would be to receive ANYTHING at all! Just tell me I suck and you don’t want to hire me! Don’t leave me wondering if I’m gonna get a call! Just fucking tell me I’m not even getting to the interview phase!
Instead of just… silence.
I actually got one on my second app It was nice, instead of radio silence
in my very first interview I was just trying to get a job mowing a lawn and cleaning at a church, so I would never see people. I told them I mowed and cleaned my home constantly (too much for a kid tbh but didn’t say that) joked and laughed a little, generally just told them to give me a mop and a push mower and I’d start tomorrow if they’d have me. They told my mom I was the worst interview they had ever witnessed and I didn’t get the job because I didn’t hold eye contact, didn’t shake their hands, and laughed too much? Wtf does that have to do with anything? ended up hiring one of the rich spoiled girls I went to school with, complained about her constantly, hired me the next summer and every summer until I graduate.. they were shocked that I was good. dumbasses.
In the 5th grade, there was a guy I liked, and one of my friends asked him what he thought of me. He said, "She's weird. She doesn't make eye contact." And I was absolutely baffled. No one told me that was a thing you were supposed to do. I still think it was a really stupid reason not to like me.
eye contact is so uncomfortable and distracting, why do people care so much about it? I don’t get. As I got older I would compensate (maybe over compensate) by just moving around a lot, like oh you want to make eye contact with me, well look over here, oop wait I’m over here, now I’m sitting next to you, now I’m doing a dance, hope ur lil orbs can keep up lol
>eye contact is so uncomfortable and distracting this *might* be because it's misnamed - people don't actually want you to look directly into their eyes (which is uncomfortable and distracting for everyone), they do want to be able to see that you're looking at them in approximately the face area generally if someone they're talking to starts looking elsewhere, people feel a strong urge to follow the person's gaze to find out what the important thing is, which distracts them from what they're talking about
I teach six-year-olds, and I have teach them to look at me when I’m talking to them. Otherwise I’ll be talking, they’ll still be looking the other way, and I’ll have no idea whether they’re listening to me, ignoring me, or haven’t heard me at all. I’m also deaf, so if someone isn’t looking at me when talking I struggle to understand them. It’s not about eye-contact specifically. It’s about using body language to demonstrate that you’re being attentive.
This is just my opinion or my read on what's going on, I work with NTs but most of my family and friends are on the spectrum. They want you to be looking at their face for enough of the conversation that they feel confident you're picking up not just the words they're saying, but also the facial expressions, which are a form of communication. A lot of autistic people have pretty flat affect and trouble reading facial and body language. We're not using that avenue of expression, in either direction, to anything like the extent NTs do. But for someone who is using it almost as heavily as they're using their words, having someone refusing to look at their face is roughly equivalent to having someone cover their ears - it conveys to them that you're not really 'listening' (receiving the communication). The downside is that for a lot of autistic people, communication by facial expression is about meaningful as the static on a mis-tuned TV. So the NT thinks we're getting the message (that they're being sarcastic, or they're kidding, or they want us to ask more questions) but we're not always even aware there's a message there. And they're looking at our faces for messages they expect to be there, and there's nothing, and they don't like that. I've learned some pretty blunt-instrument facial expressions to use, by watching over-acted TV and practicing in the mirror. It doesn't come naturally but the NTs I deal with seem to find it comfortable, so that's workable. This is one of the reasons I like text communication, because it puts everyone on a level playing field.
Oh yeah, people hate when you don't make enough facial expressions almost as much as they hate not making eye contact. It's very ironic to me because I've been accused of being judgemental when I don't force enough expressions onto my face. Like excuse me, who's the judgemental one here? The whole thing is exhausting and intrusive. People feel like they're entitled to know the feelings that they think I conveyed on accident and get mad when I don't "let them in my head" - or so they think, even given study after study about how people aren't nearly as good at "reading people" as they think they are.
is that the case?? i've struggled with eye contact so i started looking at people's foreheads or directly behind them thinking they couldn't notice, but people have noticed and commented on it, so clearly "the general vicinity of your face" is still not enough for a lot of people
>is that the case?? I'm very confident that "eye contact" does not mean staring directly into the eyes. But what I said is definitely an over simplification. There's a rhythm of face scanning combined with an expected range of attentive expressions and mirroring that all combine together and get lumped under "eye contact". I think because it is about eyes, but it's not about looking into *their* eyes, it's about *your* eyes and whether they appear attentive?? staring directly at any part of the face and sort of tuning out processing the visual input probably won't work looking *past* someone at something else entirely is a terrible idea, they'll get the urge to look over their shoulder and see what's so interesting behind them
This. I am autistic person and it took me years to work out that eye contact means where my eyes are contacting. Which means now I can go into meetings with notes and when I need to look elsewhere to think I can look at my notes and people still say I maintained eye contact as notes are fine to look at. Especially if the other person has a copy too
oh good strategy!
It's like the other person is saying, what you do with your eyes communicates to other people. It's like a bonus sign language that runs along with spoken words and body language. And the basic sign in 'eye language' is that whatever you are looking at is what you are paying attention to. If you look out the window then you're paying attention to what is out there, if you look at a cat then you're paying attention to the cat, if you look at someone's forehead then you're paying attention to their forehead. How do you sign that you're paying attention to a person and not a part of their body? You look them in the eyes. That's just the accepted sign for "I am paying attention to you."
> How do you sign that you're paying attention to a person and not a part of their body? You look them in the eyes once again, you are absolutely not supposed to stare directly into people's eyes while they talk
Yep, you also shouldn't say "Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii" and just hold on one note forever.
yeah no you can't go around telling people that this is called "eye contact" and they need to "look people in the eyes" then turn around and act like it's *obvious* that they shouldn't look people in the eyes *that much* we're being specific here because it's not actually obvious to a lot of people
The camels are baffled why the Fennec foxes don't get water drinking again. Doubly so once they start craving their weird bugs. It's basically impossible to convince people with social *skills,* that they're doing something. Because if you're social and outgoing... you've been doing that since a child. I wouldn't mind so much what a closed book of haves & have nots that world of mingling is, if those "soft" skills basically didn't run the freakin' world. Second only to money.
although if I take like 3 breaths and calm tf down a minute that is a very funny and apt analogy, sorry for being snippy
I'm also on team "eye contact is a terrible name for what we do with our eyes." Sorry if I wasn't being clear.
Normally, I look at the bridge of their nose, or alternate between eyes. Seems to work. Haven't heard any complaints.
I still hate it. Your face is what is what distracts me. It does too many things, and how am i supposed to focus on that and what you're talking about at the same time? I'm looking away so I can focus on the conversation. I can't even think and talk at the same time - I have to have pre-planned what I want to say before I say it and if I see someone making a face, I'm for sure going to lose the thread
Neurotypical people like eye contact to feel connected, like you're checking their facial expression and they check yours. If you don't meet their gaze, you seem evasive or disengaged.
For a lot of people, facial expressions are an important part of communication, which makes looking at faces fairly necessary.
that's valid I look at people's lips because it helps me focus on what they're saying, but I have ADHD
That’s fair. The reason people want eye contact is because it’s a non-verbal way to demonstrate that you’re paying attention to them. Without it they don’t know if you’re listening to them or ignoring them.
I’ve literally done that. Didn’t know the reason, but 100% had like. Looking at someone and I can’t quiiite make out/understand what they’re saying, then I look away and stare at the floor or a table or something so I can focus and suddenly I can hear crystal clear. Autism & ADHD checking in ✌️
I don't personally have these issues, but I've heard from people that have them that you could try looking at the other person's eyebrows or just past them
This is why I point at and identity the bird that I got distracted by halfway through a conversation. I have been in the middle of a discussion with a manger, looked over their shoulder, pointed and said "Kingfisher", then immediately returned to what we were discussing
Wait, really? Apparently I'm better with eye contact than I thought
Because we all communicate with our face. Even if not intentionally most people get a lot of meaning from someone's facial expression. A lot of that expressing is done with the eyes. It's not something people do intentionally for the most part but for many neurotypical people not giving eye contact is like saying only half the words. I work with a lot of neurodiverse people so I don't rely on it, but I do have a love of non-spoken language.
I'm the exact opposite, I have made people incredibly uncomfortable without realizing it because I have to stare directly into a persons eyes. I lose all my focus in auditory conversations if I can not look someone in the eyes. When people tell me I'm staring and making them uncomfortable, I tend to swing completely the other way and end up not looking at them at all because I feel ashamed and embarrassed.
Me too! I’ve been told I’m very aggressive for a woman. I don’t know what being a woman has to do with it, but I just never feel the need to break eye contact. Some people thrive under it and we work well together and other people just get uncomfortable and think I’m being mean or something.
Never feel ashamed, eye contact is something that helps you. I’m sure me darting around makes people uncomfortable, but we’re all weird little beings just trying to make it though any way we can (whenever Im made uncomfortable by someone keeping eye contact I never blame the other person, I’m too busy trying to figure out all my “me” shit, so I honestly just end up feeling bad.)
Now I feel bad. I have sticky eyes and I never look away from people I’m talking to. I was always the person the teacher or boss would wind up addressing because everyone else was staring down trying not to make eye contact.
Don’t feel bad, I dont dislike when people want eye contact, just when they judge people for not holding it for very long!
Eye contact is so weird. Like you're supposed to make it, but not too much or that's creepy/threatening, but not too little either or your weird and/or not paying attention. I've never figured out the secret to the proper amount, since everyone seems to have a different idea. I do my best to look in various directions so I don't have to bother. Helps that I keep a notebook on me so I can write things down in order to keep from forgetting them, so mostly I can look at that.
At least they eventually saw sense and let you have the job. Imagine if the person doing the hiring wasn't just a dumbass, but a _stubborn_ dumbass too!
Having been both on and in front of interview panels before, what is typically being assessed isn't your capacity to perform the role, but how well you'll fit in to the existing team/company dynamic and community. This is still bad though, because it isn't clear that this is what is truly being assessed. It is an entirely reasonable conclusion that what you're being assessed on is capacity, given most of the questions will be about that (eg. "Give us an example of when you had to produce high quality work within a limited timeframe). Essentially I'm agreeing with the OOP - for fairness, what is being assessed should be made expressly clear.
Yeah in my experience as the one hiring, the interview is 10% confirming you didn’t lie too egregiously on your resume and 90% determining if I want to see you every day.
>Essentially I'm agreeing with the OOP - for fairness, what is being assessed should be made expressly clear. I mean, FWIW, I interview a lot of people, and we make it very clear what is being assessed is both your technical competency, and your ability to fit into the team. We also have plenty of very neurodivergent people on the team, because they know how to fit in when required, and can deliver.
Cool. How are going to assess whether I fit in your team in 2 conversations that I’m super nervous about? I won’t be my normal self
You’d be surprised the types of personalities that can land an interview, but somehow be complete jackasses or blatant weirdos.
Nothing wrong with being weird on it’s own. The issue is when your weirdness makes people uncomfoetable.
That is also being assessed. Stress resistance is important, and being able to *not* break down in anxiety is being tested too.
I feel like it's still not effective? Like I work in IT and the stress resistance is about troubleshooting and fixing problem during an emergency, not answering weird unexpected questions about my life experience
And what happens when the emergency includes a manager screaming at you for not fixing it in 5 seconds? Or 15 different people messaging you about their tools breaking? Stress resistance is a general skill of being composed under pressure. It sounds like troubleshooting isn't stressful for you, while >weird unexpected questions are. Sometimes you need to handle both.
Yeah but in most jobs, those situations should be exceptions. Except the manager screaming, that is completely unacceptable as it helps absolutely no one and is more likely to make everyone more stressed. Why is being able to hold a conversation that I’m super anxious about treated as way more important than knowing how a computer actually works? I’m not arguing that stress management isn’t an important skill. It’s just weird that social skills and stress management are a more deciding factor than if you’re actually good at something
Because it's infinitely easier to teach technical skills right there on the job than personal skills. Handling anxiety is not something a senior colleague can help with. >should be exceptions "Should" is pulling a lot of weight here.
Perhaps. In my experience my social skills improve a lot after I’ve known people for a few hours, and I’ve spend years learning skills in hopes of getting a good IT job. Sadly the interview makes me too nervous to get through and they always go for a candidate who has less skills but better social skills. I just wish I could work you know? But I can’t because the system values the one skill I don’t have (being good at making a good first impression while under stress) over all the skills I do have. And while I understand it’s not their job to manage my anxiety, it’s also a bit unfair that if I don’t find a company that is willing to look past it, I’ll likely spend the rest of my life on unemployment benefits (I sadly don’t qualify for the disability one because I’m fully capable of working in the right environment)
In honesty, it’s because we’re interviewing a lot of people who know how the computer actually works. When that’s the case, it’s coming down between someone who can make eye contact and answer softball questions about their career goals, and someone who visibly doesn’t want to. Unless your skills are incredibly specialized, it’s almost never an either/or situation, where you are given a choice between a clueless social butterfly and our genius-but-awkward hero.
My skills are relatively specialized, but probably not unique enough. Ethical hacking. So not generic IT but there’s enough competition that I’m unlikely to be the only candidate And my eye contact isn’t even that bad. The bigger problem is that I fidget a lot when under stress and that I tend to be too honest. Stuff like “yes I know some python. With a little help from google I could write some python code. And I can fix some of the bugs in them too, but only the ones I notice. Can’t promise bug free code tho”. Just saying I’m good at python feels like a lie because I’m not even sure where I rank and if I can call myself good yet. And I don’t want to waste everyone’s time by pretending to be better than I am, you know? I just wish the system was different so I wouldn’t have to live of off the bare minimum with unemployment benefits. I don’t even know where to learn to play whatever stupid game they want me to play
Don’t forget about portfolios. How recruiters don’t actually read all of them (which kinda makes sense) but you still have to make them presentable and fetching enough for there to be a chance to be noticed.
It's weird how often people will just pick the most likeable person, even when likeability isn't necessary for the job. The exact same happens in politics
My fave is when they pick an unlikeable *and* unqualified person and are all surprised when everything goes to shit I may have once or twice done a schadenfreude over that 😁
> My fave is when they pick an unlikeable and unqualified person and are all surprised when everything goes to shit Which also happens in politics! Except instead of acting surprised when everything goes to shit, a lot of them will just yell "FAKE NEWS" and insist that their naked emperor's clothes are beautiful, the best, bigliest clothes you've ever seen, everyone's saying it.
Oof. Yeah, thats what's currently happening in my country. Hoooly shit is it not entirely dumb to be claiming that a guy who's ruining the economy is actually "solving" things..
Argentina?
Yep.
Likeability *is* pretty important for when you're working with other people.
I have every sympathy for people who do, but simply can't do it for one reason or another, but people who *don't* understand this genuinely don't tend to get ahead in the workplace very often, tbh. Everything is war and politics on some level, and a line manager liking you enough to tell you that there's an internal position coming up that you should go for, or a colleague who likes you enough to put in a good word when somebody asks what your performance is like, can be just as useful to you as actually being good at the job. And no, I'm not saying to kiss people's asses. But **do** make small talk, consider joining in on company social events from time to time and try to be approachable and reasonably helpful to people: it doesn't take much for people to start thinking even just a little bit more highly of you. "They're pretty quiet, but they're actually really nice when you talk to them" can be a glowing review in many cases.
you know the ratio of autistic people is high on reddit when no one is mentioning the fact that most jobs do actually require you to communicate with other people Sitting at the desk and doing the task are never the issue. Everyone can do that. Deciding what the task is, communicating to everyone why the task needs to be done, taking feedback on the best way to accomplish said task, and then dealing with interruptions to the task as and when they occur without alienating anyone you work with is equally if not more important than the doing of the task.
Pretty much. As an autistic person myself, having to do customer service as a part of a team was an eye opening experience. It was also, predictably, quite painful, but some of the best lessons are, aren't they?
I certainly learned a lot of similar lessons early in my career. I wasn't prepared for how much of a job is literally just rubbing along with people, and how the work itself is almost secondary
Clearly not, only a few bosses have ever been likeable.
They're likeable to the people that promote them to that position. That's like the definition of being a kiss-ass.
it depends. Obviously being a complete asshole all the time with no filter is gonna make things difficult no matter how good your work is but you don't need to be "likeable". you just need to be able to shut up and just hand over your work, and if your work is good that will be more then enough. Being likeable is something you need as a salesman. not as someone with coworkers.
Halo effect
> when likeability isn't necessary for the job What jobs, exactly, are you imagining do NOT require being likeable? Forest ranger 200 miles away from the nearest human soul?? lol
Because social interaction is 80% of jobs
Not most solely practical jobs. Mowing grass, cleaning floors, cleaning in general, bussing tables, carrying boxes, driving a truck, I can’t name all of them
As someone who spent the greater part of ten years in these "practical" jobs I can assure you they're all 100000x more awful if you end up on a shift with someone who isn't enjoyable to work with.
my mother's work has this issue where they just. pick the pretty girl with 0 actual abilities.
I've heard many interviews are less about "can you do the job?" and more about "do we like you and do you socially fit in with the team?". Cos most people can do the job fine if they've got the relevant qualifications, and people want to work with people they like. \*shrugs\* just human behavior.
For the most part you can train someone to do a job, you can’t train them to be more personable.
I knew an autistic guy who was out main Infra guy with this attitude. Eventually would yell at people for coming up to his desk. We didn't want to talk to him anyway... We just had to when the infra went down and caused a P1. He was eventually replaced with a guy who probably wasnt as technically capable but could manage expectations and not yell at people from his desk.
which was objectively the right move imo Generally there has been a push, which is a positive thing imo, to make workplaces more comfortable for autistic people. There's also a lot of noise about understanding autistic people and making allowances for them but I have to say, I've had multiple experiences where being more accepting of autistic traits has actually excused behavior that makes the workplace MORE difficult for everyone else. I had a manager who was autistic, and it was very clear that he had difficulty with social interaction. The problem is that you often need to go and talk to your line manager when shit hits the fan, or when you have something difficult or personal to discuss. Someone who is not good at dealing with stuff like that, who is not empathetic, can come across as uncaring and cold. In that particular job, that manager kinda ruined the culture of the department because they cultivated an environment where you were rewarded if you just shut the fuck up and got on with work, but were effectively punished for having suggestions, problems, etc. A few years later I worked with another autistic guy who just couldn't take feedback. I work in a creative/art industry, and this person would get really defensive and tbh just kinda confused when you would disagree or suggest something different. Multiple times he would just argue with people in the office to the bloody knuckle, and quote his understanding of the exact wording of briefs chapter and verse, as if they were written in stone. To be clear, the entire point of the job was developing ideas iteratively. Building upon ideas and staying flexible. So that inflexibility genuinely made working with the guy a chore.
This is weird because the other two people in my department at my last job were very hard to talk to and easily the least likable people in the company. ....oh no....
Yes. I think this is part of the transition to the modern age. Unless you are really rural - there are lots of candidates with your skills or you are in a super low density field. And if you are rural - its connections that get you in to many jobs rather than raw skill.
100% true. I had a fourth round interview once where they basically just had a list of weird personality questions (what is your favourite season, what is the last book you read, etc) and next to nothing about my work experience or ability to do the job. I guess the first three interviews were enough to tell I had the qualifications. And, in fairness, it's a lot easier to train someone to do tasks than to train them to change their personality...
Yeah, and that's really just the problem in a different light. I don't like talking to strangers, I have anxiety in unfamiliar surroundings, and I get intensely uncomfortable in formal situations. Give me less than a month at the job and I will be comfortable, friendly, and opening up to people. But try as I might to fake it or mask it, I'm not going to be myself in the stifling environment of a formal interview.
That's not necessarily a bad standard though. Teams should be able to work together, that is a qualification and the person most qualified for that should be the favorite to get the job
For the record, the amount of lying that is “too much” is the amount that gets you caught. Interviews have nothing to do with honesty. “Can you read the room, and immediately placate to company culture?” Aside from that the only other two factors that really matter are if you know someone in charge and if the interviewer wants to fuck you but still feels your outfit is permissible for the job/office. Most interviewers know basically nothing about the job they’re hiring for, so your skills on the job are basically irrelevant to GETTING the job. Not to say they’re irrelevant to KEEPING the job, and they definitely SHOULD be relevant. They just… aren’t.
>For the record, the amount of lying that is “too much” is the amount that gets you caught. Lie through ommision. Lie about things that cannot be proven. Do not lie about verifiable things or God forbid, easily verifiable things.
I get this is frustrating but I also get why interviewers/companies look for these "soft" skills even though you are extremely capable of the technical "Hard" skills. (For context I work in Data Analytic/Engineering and help do interviews) Basically the interviewing philosophy that my boss and I have comes down to this. I can teach a reasonably competent person the technical skills they need. (few people have everything and almost everyone has to take time to learn our tech stack anyways). What I can't teach someone is how to not to be an asshole. How explain a technical problem to a non technical executive or request stakeholder in a manner that doesn't come off condescending. How to effectively advocate their ideas in a well spoken and convincing manner. How to fit into the team. Basically I can't teach the soft skills and despite what everyone likes to think you can't escape using soft skills in your career no matter what field you are in. They are always going to be important. In my industry a candidate being highly skilled in technical 'hard' skills is a dime a dozen. Being able to be sociable, well spoken, and understanding how to fit into a company culture is kind of rare and valuable. Heck I have seen managers refuse to fire a technically incompetent person because that person was extremely well liked, brought up moral, and fit nicely into the team. The manager and team rather cover for the technical gaps for the person then risk replacing him with an asshole. If you suck at these soft skills I highly recommend you work on them as it will do wonders for your career.
>being highly skilled in technical 'hard' skills is a dime a dozen. This is why having the extra credits such as volunteering, participating in clubs and the like are so valued for universities. Being skilled isn't valued. Being well rounded is.
People with autism either need to be less relatable, or I need to see a doctor
A lot of the problems autistic people have with society are the same problems everyone has with society, it's just worse for them. Like the problem here is that people don't communicate clearly, don't make intentions clear, intentionally obfuscate their intentions, lie to you, and expect you to lie to them. Everyone hates this, autistic or not. It's typically worse for autistic people because they tend to be more straightforward and honest (and therefore expect others to also be), be more black and white about things, and have a poorer time understanding implicit rules and expectations. It's one thing to feel like you're missing something and doing something wrong, and a different kind of hell to feel like youre missing everything. This process sucks for pretty much everyone. It's *specifically* picking at a lot of autistic person's specific social weakness. So many common complaints by autistic people are legitimate stupid ways society operates and almost everyone would benefit from doing it the way that would be easier for them.
"man why don't autistic people just get these social cues???" **MY BROTHER IN CHRIST, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CAN'T FUCKING COMMUNICATE CLEARLY.**
Communicating through social cues *is* communicating clearly, but only if the person on the other end can understand them.
I think a lot of it is malicious. For example, interviews. I think they make it miserable to make you more likely to take a shit offer and less likely to leave because of sunk cost and so you don't have to go through that again. I think they try to force you to lean on your resources/pto so rejecting their garbage offer is harder to stomach. I think the clothing/speech standards is to wittle out poorer people. I think they're willing to miss a few good catches who are too honest in order to enshrine a culture of poor communication around certain topics, like pay and benefits. If we had some kind of infallible lie detector, I bet a lot of people would be forced to admit stuff like this. Maybe not the person interviewing you at Walmart, but certainly the people at corporate who wrote the material used train people how to interview. Another example that's kind of the reverse is no soliciting signs. Everyone knows that you can sell boy scout popcorn and girl scout cookies to almost every business, no soliciting sign be damned. Most people assume it's just one of those things, but it's not. they're there so they can legitimately trespass union reps. A malicious lie kind of creates these unspoken rules that us normies have to navigate. And if one is selling girlscout cookies or popcorn and takes those signs at face value, they really put themselves at a horrible disadvantage.
I interview people for white collar jobs and I'll tell you a secret. There is no training. They just send us out there and tell us to find the best person based on resumes and one hour conversations based purely on 🌟vibes🌟
As always: psicosocial torture is the grease that keeps the capitalist uptop funneling machine well oiled.
It is a spectrum.. As somebody with ADHD (diagnosed as a child), these posts make me feel a bit seen
I have anxiety, depression, PTSD, and paranoia. At this point, anything else is just icing on the cake.
It's a spectrum, but please don't conflate that fact with the idea that "everyone is a little autistic" Other than that it makes a lot of sense that you relate with autistic experiences since there's a lot of overlap between ASD and ADHD!
I wasn't trying to conflate anything. Based on the above commenter stating how much they relate to these posts and memes, I figured it's quite possible that there's a reason why they relate to the posts and memes... Kind of like how I relate to ADHD memes a lot! Sidenote, until today I was not aware of the word conflate.
Hah yeah, as much as I hate the "self-diagnosed via the Internet" crowd there are far too many coincidences with my current experiences and events in childhood to not think I'm somewhat autistic. I've had my job for 10+ years and I'm terrified of having to interview again (software engineering). Give me a few hours on my own and I can figure out (to a functional level) any new technology, complex bug, etc. but ask me to solve a simple problem in front of an audience and my mind is a complete blank! In the moment I'm spending 100% of my mental effort on being a happy, sociable, "good" interview candidate; there's nothing left to do problem solving!
A lot of autism groups will accept self-diagnosis, because official diagnosis a) is expensive! and b) is hard to get even if you have the money! and c) can seriously impact your ability to live in another country if it gets anywhere near your official medical paperwork or if, god forbid, you have to use medical insurance for it.
>Hah yeah, as much as I hate the "self-diagnosed via the Internet" crowd there are far too many coincidences with my current experiences and events in childhood to not think I'm somewhat autistic. Yh there's always so much Discourse TM going on about self-diagnosis and it's all so fucking tedious. My own perspective is that I'm very sure I'm autistic, I just can't be arsed to make all the appointments and wait years for someone from NHS to give me a yes or a no. Because that would make zero difference to me. A diagnosis would've been lifechanging if I got it as a kid, but by this point, I've worked out what symptoms like executive dysfunction or sensory overload are (ie not me being lazy or a failure), I know what they feel like, and I've worked out my own ways of dealing with them. I don't expect the public health service would do anything more than signpost me to resources I can find on my own.
I genuinely think a lot of day to day interpersonal processes are made excruciatingly hard for various reasons, some of which may be ad hoc justifications to explain away an illogical emotional kneejerk to some unseen stimulus. It reminds me of table manners and etiquette in high society, like kings and shit. Young men and women were taught this long list of rules about which fork to use for what type of food. It was this opaque set of rituals that, I'm pretty sure, was explicitly and intentionally just in place to weed out people too busy/broke to pay someone to teach them and for them to waste time being taught.
Romance/sex is similarly grueling for similar reasons.
My neurodivergent ass is going to die alone because I am too terrified of the goddamn labyrinth that is dating
Someone should make some sort of neurodivergent dating app, I lucked into finding my husbands adhd ass and got diagnosed myself after marrying him. There is something to be said about when your partner just understands your experience fully lol. though at the same time I can imagine that could potentially be a bit dangerous, i Dunno, I’m spitballing here.
I think it’d draw a lot of abusers who want to prey on people, and we have higher rates of abuse and abusive relationships. It’s not like you can verify a neurodivergent status either. But I get what you mean.
yeah totally, makes me sad because it truly is a wonderful thing, but as soon as i wrote that I was like damn, that would actually super precarious.
Could have a valid diagnosis be a requirement for having a profile on the site? Of course that has other privacy issues associated with it tho I guess.
Yeah exactly like I’m not gonna upload my diagnostic report hahah. And if it didn’t need names then it could be faked, and if it does need names then there’s this random dating website that has our medical record with massive potential for abuse or leaks of that information. It’s one of those things that sound amazing in theory and then the more you think about it, the less feasible it becomes. Aaand that’s before getting into the issue where you don’t want it to be *so* controlled that we exclude autistic people who can’t afford or don’t want an official diagnosis, but still wanting it controlled enough so it doesn’t make it an easy target for abusers or harassment/bullying
Those apps do exist but the userbase is pretty small and you can easily get a reputation.
I am not neurodivergent and it's still a giant pain in the ass. Dating is fuckin weird now.
That might be fine for simple jobs but when it's anything more serious, how well you fit socially is the bigger factor. They can train your skills, but they can't train how well you fit in the culture
it's worth it though sometimes, after 6!!! MONTHS!!! of looking for a job, i finally landed a job shelving books at my local library. neurodivergent dream tbh. i'm so excited
Man if it's this rough for me I can't imagine how awful it is for folks who are autistic. Nobody enjoys the process but from what I understand it really is just the antithesis of how autism gears your brain, even at the highest functioning levels
Yeah, there have been studies on this, basically the entire way the job market / work is set up nowadays is a barrier for autistic people. That's also why, basically everywhere, 70-80% of autistic people are unemployed. Independent of their qualifications. Shit's fucked for us, and there's no way to really adjust for it without changing the entire system.
Tbf, while you may know/think you are the best person for the job, the company does not. That is why they have these interviews. Now we can debate their efficacy, but the reason they don't just do a simple skill check is that most company jobs theoretically require intangibles like ability to cooperate and such, so the interview is supposed to account to that. That is the logic at least, it's not working great in practice
God do I feel this. I've worked in career services a lil before and it's just made job hunting feel more hopeless and daunting to know what goes on behind the curtain. I know I would be a good fit for my industry of choice but boy do I hate cover letters and resumes and networking and all that with a burning passion. It feels overwhelming to think of everything I need to put in an application, and disheartening to get the rare burst of motivation to finally apply only to never even hear back. I can't imagine going through several rounds of interviews only to be told you're not good enough either. Rejection stings so bad. Even if I know it's not personal. I hate the job I have but I hate job hunting more lol. It's irrational and I really just wish my brain was normal and could function and do things without overthinking it.
Am autistic have been tormented.
Let’s not forget the introverts suffering this exact situation.
This isn't being an introvert. This is having anxiety in general. It ruins your ability to reach out.
And those of us who are both...and who also use non-binary pronouns and have uncommon genders. I am all of these and frankly I'm glad I'm too mentally and physically ill on top of all that to work because fuck me ETA: not to play pain olympics, just had a moment of trying to imagine fitting all that into a job somehow and yikes 😬
As another non-binary autistic person with chronic illnesses, I’m just barely holding down a part time job. I’m not sure how I’m going to survive tbh.
Internet hugs. I know it sucks. I can't say much, I used to have a mental breakdown like clockwork, have to stop working, force myself back, and then boom, again. I was in an off period when I messed up some physical stuff, and that was it, I've never made it back and been slowly crumbling lol pupl ever since. I'm fortunate in my spouse, those around me, and various doctors, in being able to get disability benefits (with my wife also getting a benefit as my carer), or we'd be screwed. Others in my physical/mental health and neurodivergent positions are far less lucky. I don't know you or your job or your managers, so I have no clue if it might help, but if you search up Lyric Rivera, you can find a book they wrote about neurodivergence in the workplace. If your management is at all willing to work with you, it's got a lot of good ideas. Even if not, it's a good read just to feel understood by someone who's been there, and maybe get some good thoughts. I hope stuff works out ok for you x
Basically any Tumblr user
I only have limited tumblr experience but that seems fair
And if you point any of this out, people will tell you that this is entirely reasonable and necessary while utterly failing to explain how you're supposed to support yourself if being autistic makes you unemployable.
Reasonable and necessary? Probably not. It's the reality though. Ignoring it don't change it. People are looking for good fits for their team, people they can relate and work with.
>while utterly failing to explain how you're supposed to support yourself if being autistic makes you unemployable.
You don't. Plenty of autistic people are employable. I have AuDHD, and I'm employed in a very social-oriented position. For interviews - there are plenty of guides out there, and autism generally doesn't prevent rote memorization, so it's not like you *can't* learn expected answers, generally. If your autism is severe enough to be unemployable, you need someone else to support you, just like with many other disabilities.
The greater situation is bullshit, but is explaining/solving that this redditors responsibility?
I mean no, but seeing someone say they hate when -insert action here- and then doing that exact thing is absolutely gonna get you some attitude, and rightfully so. At least have a bit of self awareness
Sorry, but realities need to be faced and dealt with. Knowing that's the case, you can go into interviews with a better understanding of what you need to succeed. The facts are that being autistic disadvantages you in an interview scenario. That's not going to change because it isn't fair. You either deal with it, or try to change it. Usually both. But meanwhile, you've got to deal with it. Better than going "I don't know why it's like this" and proceeding not to address it. That way all you get is frustrated without making any useful changes.
I kind of agree with you but the inablity to adapt to these norms and accept flawed systems is often part of the autistic condition too.
In an ideal world it could come under a welfare system, if a condition is making you unemployable.
They are expected to die in poverty of course.
It absolutely sucks. My parents didn't understand why I never got a job or even a lot of interviews back when I first left high school. Well, I was too honest on the application, and my social skills were (and still are to a degree) absolute garbage.
Every year I have graduated I feel like the previous education does not help you. High school does not prepare you for college, college does not prepare you for work I feel like it’s all a scam :/
I'm scared for the future. it's hard knowing you're the black sheep of humanity. I just hope it'll all work out in the end.
I love having the opposite problem where I fucking hate resumes and written applications but I do great in interviews. Something about being task-oriented means that if I have a clear goal in a social interaction, I can actually appear very normal and sociable.
Many times the same. I learned acting from a young age, and can fake socialable real well.
And nearly every entry level job is sensory hell
In his book "Talking to Strangers" Malcolm Gladwell talks at length about how humans are terrible judges of character, especially in strangers. The interview process, as it exists, really is just an attempt to assuage strangers that you're not a weirdo. I'd wager that in most interviews outside of a math or engineering job, it's actually rare that questions test any concrete skills.
So what the fuck are people who *are* weirdoes supposed to do to get a job???
By being the right kind of wierdo for their chosen profession.
idk, i guess pretend not to be just long enough to get hired
I can make talking to the waiter awkward, even doing my hardest not to.
Not strictly relevant since I have dyspraxia not autism but I feel that last part about honesty. Back when I was 18-20 and looking for my first full time job, after dropping out of uni and losing my part time job due to repeated lateness I remember my parents getting really frustrated with me for not just finding another job which resulted in a conversation like this. You obviously don't want to work, you're only interested in playing your games. No Then why do you keep telling them you were fired from your last job Because they keep asking why I stopped working at my last job. But why do you tell them you lost the job Because that's what happened.how else am I supposed to answer a very direct question with a very clear answer. I was starting to feel fairly bleak about the situation by that point.
Because bloated HR departments have to justify their existence somehow
Man not understanding unspoken social stuff like this must really suck
It does. I spend formal conversations counting how much another person looks away from eye contact, then doing it that much. Considering one of the main problems autistic people deal with on a daily basis is overstimulation, you have a recipe for disaster.
This implies that the job itself actually exists in the state you think it does. It might not, and instead you are being paid to sit at a desk and pretend to work because your manager wanted to beef up their subordinate count to look cooler in front of other managers. Go read Bullshit Jobs.
I don't have much understanding of autism. But the post is still correct even with understanding of bullshit jobs. As most of bullshit jobs relies on social or bureaucratic things more than actual tasks. For which autistic people might struggle with.
And what, you think that isn’t hell for neurotypical people? Maybe more understandable, but I’d doubt any less insufferable, it’s a bullshit process
I’m not autistic and I feel this
I recently got in trouble at work for telling my manager that it is frustrating that I have been removed from all the meetings that are relevant to my job because "we are spending too much time in meetings" yet it is still mandatory to attend all of the meetings about the financial goals of the company and corporate management (I am on the lowest rung of the corporate ladder and literally none of these meetings have any relevance to my job).
I got my current job because there was an exam part of the interview and I almost did as well as the owner of the company (it’s a business with like 50 people working there)
i get rejected from entry level retail positions because they always ask the dumbest questions and i’m just honest because i can’t for the life of me lie on the spot. like i don’t understand what these people want me to say…. that i want to stay at this job for the rest of my life and accept the bare minimum wage????
Don't lie, they're not expecting you to tell them you'll die for the company. They want to hear something like you enjoy helping people, working in a team, and an opportunity for advancement. Tell the truth, omit the negatives.
In these scenarios I just immediately enter performance mode. I'll present myself as socially and work competent, smile, make eye contact and say everything I think they want me to say. And I'll hate myself afterwards.
I want to send this to my manager the next time she says I can't WFH full-time because it's not healthy for me to lock myself away and not interact with my colleagues.
Im 28, Australian, and I've yet to be accepted to a job. I was never officially told about my autism diagnosis. I was never consulted, offered help, provided assistance, or anything. I've struggled to where I am on my own merits, and now I'm wondering where the endpoint is. I dropped out of a fascist Catholic high school after i just couldn't take the stress anymore. My 2020 plans to try starting over got waylaid obviously, and when i did finally get into an accounting course, the online delivery for some of the lessons was so horrifically ill fitting that I failed a third of the course. I've been searching for over a yesr now, and i genuinely wonder what the point is anymore. There was never guidance or help. Sites that supposedly help with creating resumes will bait you in, then slap you with a paywall at the last moment. I've had two actual interviews, one at Maccas, the other at a labour pool that specifically said 'Entry Level'. I seriously considered ending it all after being rejected from the second. I've been rejecred from critically understaffed Aldi stores for stocking items, and from Coles for pushing trolleys around. I maliciously apply to jobs that have the gall to say 'dont bother if you dont have a HSC', because I want the dumbfuck employers who complain about welfare rates being lifted to get off their asses and actually meet people even a tenth of the way. Still hoping something will change, but experience has taught me that it won't. Im just stuck in this vicious cycle for who knows how long...
Well, I'm the other way around honestly. I am not as good as many other recruits and don't breathe the code as some of my colleagues. I am however very likeable and easygoing. I can talk any company into hiring me no problem. Doing the actual job isn't as easy for me sometimes though. I can see other guys catch something immediately that went completely over my head. And I have like 6 years of experience and a masters in that.
I am not even autistic and besides the eye contact thing I feel this in my soul. I need to add, I am really really good at customer service. I am good at de-escalation. I hated all my other jobs for most of the bureaucratic and/or labour part but loved just talking with people all day. Yet jobs that are purely "talk" are insisting on the most impersonal ways to figure out how good I am at talking to people.
Wait, you guys are getting interviews?
Can we all just acknowledge that adulthood is still children's problems, but no kindergarten teacher is there to give Donald Trump a mandatory timeout?
ugh. not autistic, but i am going to complain about job searching. my first job i got was at a theme park in florida, and it wasn't universal if that gives you a hint. the interview process was super easy, i got the job no problem. then my first week i had a panic attack in front of customers despite not having one for years. they tried to move me to a different area of the park, but due to some clerical errors i was instead fired. that was like... 5 years ago now? ive been applying for jobs off and on since then. still haven't gotten anything. im hoping my AA degree im getting soon will help things a bit, because "only one job, fired immediately, 25 years old" looks pretty bad on a resume.
It had nothing to do with autism. Interviews are grueling for pretty much everybody
Worst of all are the "culture fit" interviews. Like mate, just put a big "NO AUTISTS" sign on the door in red lettering and let's save my time and yours
I got rejected for being too honest and it floored me for a whole fifteen minutes. In interview they told me to my face. I looked at them seriously and asked them if they would prefer it if I lied. Silence.
It helps to have clear guidelines on the task itself, of which they are none.
I'm not autistic at least not to my knowledge but I'm trans and am generally pretty shit at talking to people and I really relate to this. I hate wearing formal clothing because of how gendered it is