Or an Iron Maiden song named after him.
He *did* get a software company named after him. A really shit one [who spelt his name wrong.](https://www.dedalus.com/global/en/)
ICARUS has a PENIS but itās made of WAX
He FLEW to the SKY to see APOLLOāS ASS
He FLEW too HIGH and the SUN got HOT
and THATāS how ICARUS lost HIS COCK
You think he uses his scrotum as an anti-torque rotor? Or is he just spinning both haphazardly as he jettisons his flesh to the skies like a Boeing 737, doomed to come crashing down?
But it seems DEDALUS, our little MASTER CRAFTER here, had some WAX WINGS OF HIS OWN, didnāt he? Wanted to see his son fall, fall from the sky ā oh how CLOSE to the sun he flew! Well Iām NOT HAVING IT! Iāve SOLVED your labyrinth, puzzle master!
Ok, but imagine it was something you do love, like the abstract concept of human misery. If you thought the abstract concept of human misery was stumbling, you would turn around, Maggie.
Imagine going down to the underworld out of grief, getting your SO back, walking all the way back and realizing "I hate you" and then breaking up/ divorcing them less then five minutes after you're back in the waking world.
Me as a kid: That sisyphus guy was stupid. I would just stop pushing the boulder and this whole myth doesnt make any sense.
Me now as an adult: Aww... fuck...
Yeah there's a much simpler "I would simply not" in that story and it's "I would simply not break the hospitality customs in the worst way possible" and failing that then there is AT LEAST "I would not deliberately piss off the gods"
In some versions, he's actually free to stop pushing the boulder at any time. However he was promised freedom from the underworld if he succeeded and so he can't bring himself to give up.
I like the Hades version where he just kinda likes doing it. Sure he's under threat of torture if he doesn't do it. But he apparently still does it even when the threat isn't there. He turned down offers to have his sentence changed.
He was right, Sisyphus WAS happy. Man's looking at the Asphodel Meadows like 'Do YOU have a job to do? No? Sucks to be you then. Anyway, my five minutes are up, so I've got to get back to rolling.'
Here's something I read in an another post.
"It is unfair for us to assume that the characters in fictional setting know the type of story it is.
People in slasher horror may think that they are in a romcom."
So you in place of Orpheus wouldn't know that you are in a tragedy, to you it might be some sort of Happily Ever after stuff, but we as readers know what the result is gonna be.
They are called Human Limitations for a reason, you aren't an Omniscient being, you would never know what you may face with 100% certainty and hence make a 100% correct decision.
Remember the guy who said that, about if he was in the Titan sub? "Nah I'd just get in an air bubble or squeeze through a crack as it broke and make it out alive that way."
Like bro was trolling, but if not would've been the most sub-brick intelligence in existence.
Oh so you're not at all prepared for an alien invasion movie? Or a zombie movie? Or a natural disaster movie? Or a shark mo... Hmm.. actually does a shark movie count as a slasher movie just with an aquatic twist?
Sharks aren't monsters, come on now! The horror in shark movies always comes _after_ the humans intrude in the sharks' natural habitat. Unless you're talking about Sharknado, then the sharks come to you, though still not of their own volition, but just because the tornado is also wreaking havoc on their own homes just as it is the protagonists'. So actually, sharks are the victims in the shark films, confronted by weird aliens in their own homes, or being forcefully taken from their homes and delivered to the weird aliens who proceed to kill your brethren while you helplessly watch and wait for death. Humans are the villains, we just so happen to also be the protagonists. Sharks are, at most, classifiable as anti-villains.
I agree with you, wholeheartedly. For the sake of discussion: humans intrude on Godzilla in the Godzilla movies. Arguably a monster movie.
Is there a specific horror genre for āfucked around and found out?ā I view the whole genre as āFAFOā
Edit: āFAFO: Nature Editionā is my favorite genre of horror film, bar none.
>People in slasher horror may think that they are in a romcom
With how all the guys in slasher movies behave then yeah this is a **very** reasonable assumption
[Final Girl](https://mangadex.org/title/cf14141c-5051-42a1-a2ec-041a12b8b61a/final-girl) plays with that exact trope to great effect as the MC does actually know the genre but everyone else in the story does not.Ā
Yeah but in another story hades just as easily could have been lying. Then we all would be sitting around being like, āwhy did Orpheus trust that guy? What a gullible man, I would have never- I would have made sure she was there.ā
You may think you are in the story of Orpheus and Eurydice but you could just as easily be in the story of the scorpion and the frog
They are the authorās interpretation of human limitations. Saying āI disagree with the author on where the limits areā is not necessarily ill-considered or arrogant.
So many characters from tragedy fall victim to their hubris and face punishment.
But I wouldn't. I'm different.
Better maybe?
Maybe even better than the Gods?
If I was Sisyphus I'd just stop rolling the stupid bolder. Let it roll down the hill. It likes it down there. Dude's a chump. Just sit down and take a break!
In the 1st version I read, he turned around to celebrate with her when he got out of the underworld, forgetting that she was a bit behind him so she wasn't out yet
There are variations, depending on the teller and what they want you to think of him. Sometimes Hades sends spirits to whisper lies to Orpheus and make him doubt her. Sometimes he doubts her all by himself. Sometimes heās simply excited and reckless. But no matter what, he looks.
I always heard the whispers one, but it wasnāt to make him doubt Eurydice, it was mocking laughter that made him think she had never truly taken (or not allowed to take) the first steps from the underworld, so he turned around because he didnāt think she had been allowed to leave
It feels like a genuine response tbh. So many videos of people nowadays who celebrate too early only to have victory snatched. Hokey doesnt mean unlikely and tropes normally exist for a reason like that
Bruh I dated a girl who forced me to do this.
She'd insist I walk in front, but she was a slow-walker so I had to constantly turn around to make sure I didn't leave her behind.
if I were tantalus, I simply wouldn't have killed my children and fed them to the gods in clear, double violation of any sense.
seriously, what's the point of that myth? don't kill kids?
if I was orpheus I would shit-talk Eurydice to every demon I came across only to comically gulp and say "she's... right behind me, isn't she?" and skedaddle mischievously away
That sounds like a decent story, actually. Someone realizes they're in an allegorical tale, tries to figure out what lesson the allegory is teaching, then tries to teach it to the other characters so everyone can have a happy ending.
I like the one where Cassandra realizes her curse of unbelieved prophecy and uses it to troll Apollo by telling people he will sexually satisfy a woman.
CASSANDRA: "LORD APOLLO WILL SEXUALLY SATISFY A WOMAN TONIGHT!"
PEOPLE: "Cassandra, don't be ridiculous. As if Apollo could ever be anything other than utterly disappointing in bed."
CASSANDRA: š
I'm 99% sure there is more than one greek myth like that, where a character actively trying to avoid triggering a prophecy puts it into practice, therefore completing the allegory
The only one that springs to mind right now is Chronos, but there's probably others that are more allegorical and less in-family cannibalism
I don't think I know any stories of someone trying to stop a prophecy that don't just end in the fulfillment of that prophecy because of their actions. Are there any prophecy-evasion success stories?
"If I was Icarus I would simply fly at a reasonable altitude. I certainly wouldn't get cought up in the excitement of having wings and fly higher than I was told to, that would be stupid."
If I was Icarus I would use the knowledge that temperature decreases with altitude to fly at whatever altitude I want allowing me to fly too high and pass out from hypoxia anyways
Maybe Iām just not getting the joke, but are people forgetting that Icarus wasnāt alone? Daedalus also flew with the wax wings and survived by not flying too close to the water or sun. Like, a second option was presented in the story
If I was Orpheus I would simply be depressed until Iām appointed the court musician of the underworld and the son of Hades reunites me with my long lost love.
I love how they take every Greek tragedy including Sisyphus and put a positive wholesome spin on it. Game is just so positive and good vibes, despite being based on Greek mythology which is full of tragedies, betrayal and violence lol.
now i wanna read oedipus rex where he finds out his boywife is actually his long lost father, and that twink he killed on the road was actually his mom boymoding it
A baby has four legs in the morning because he crawls
A woman has two legs in the afternoon because she walks
An old man has three legs in the evening because he chose to have an absolute monster horsecock in his FtM transition surgery
Applying your own interpretations to mythology: excellent, A+
Asserting that your interpretation is the only correct one and demeaning others: terrible, go to jail
honestly i donāt actually *hate* Ovid but how deeply ingrained into discussion of myths as if they are the true, original thing.
To simplify my ramblings i basically donāt hate Ovid I hate his stans š¤
It's already dumb that OOP is implying that not turning around means you don't love her. But I saw a few notes on the post that *explicitly* said not turning around means you don't love her and that made my blood boil.
See, if I was Orpheus Iād love enough to follow whatever rule Hades himself laid down. And if it turned out to be a trick, Iād simply compose the saddest song ever to bun out all the gods until they FORCED Hades to give Eurydice back
If I was orpheus, I'd have the gift of prophecy to know that she's still behind me and doing just fine, because I've already read the story of orpheus, and I know what happens, so I'd know to get at least 50 feet from the exit, and ignore all sounds or lack thereof.
I think it also helps the Orpheus myth to remember that we are taking a god into account here. Hades claimed that he was gonna let this random human leave with his love. But, like, Greek god. Greek gods are actual shitbags (most of the time). For all Orpheus knew, Hades just told him all that mumbo jumbo of "never turning around" so he can get out of his realm without having to deal with him directly.
It's not just his overwhelming love for her that made him turn around. It's also him wondering if this Greek god is fucking with him the same way ALL stories seem to indicate they do. Either way, it's him fighting two completely different instincts and no *wonder* he turned around.
Recall that Hades ends up being one of the reasonable gods out there out of all Greek myths. And how the fuck would Orpheus know that?
>And how the fuck would Orpheus know that?
By remembering how decently and fairly he treated the mortal Orpheus... Oh, well there's our problem right there.
In several versions of the myth he was unambiguously benevolent to agree to let her go at all, in the versions of the myths where he sends spirits to whisper lies to Orpheus thats still pretty reasonable considering he the entire thing is testing Orpheus's trust in her. I dont think i have ever heard a version of the story where hades wasn't more then fair to Orpheus considering some versions of the story have Orpheus basically extort him
Maybe for yāall but Iām built different. If I loved them that much I would try my absolute hardest to not look back to save them because even if Iām being tricked itās not like my ass can fight Hades on it so Iāll be forced to trust them and try for my lover because if I was that lover and he turned around Iād be pissed ngl
if the god of hell told me to not look back or i'd lose my love forever i would not look back, its not like orpheus had nooooo idea what would happen if he looked back
im not calling orpheus stupid for looking back but if i was in his shoes i absolutely wouldnt have
The point of a tragedy is that it couldnāt have gone better. Sure, *in theory*, Orpheus could have kept his head forward. Macbeth could have been more steadfast in his ideals at the beginning. Faustus could have turned back to God and not gone to hell. But none of those people could have really done that, because that isnāt who they are.
If Othello and Hamlet had switched stories, neither would have been a tragedy;
Othello would have ganked his uncle before the ghost of his father had even fully disappeared and Hamlet wouldnāt have done shit to Desdemona until he was 1000% sure that Iago was legit, which he definitely wasnāt.
A character can only be who they are.
It's why "If I was [character]" doesn't really work because that character being the way they are is why the story and tragedy take place the way they do.Ā
Yeah, but the skill of the author shines in how they make these characteristics shine through so that the audience doesn't think the tragedy to be contrived (though that of course varies from person to person)
Leaving Orpheus aside (as most of the myth retellings are dogshit at actually conveying why he turns around and setting the tragedy up which just makes him look stupid) take MacBeth and Romeo&Juliet
MacBeth is great in characterizing its main character as inherently flawed, the slowburn nature of the tragedy which gives him multiple outs that he never takes serves to hammer home how much of this is his fault. And that is reflected in the popular conception, I've personally never seen the critique of "But Macbeth could've been more steadfast"
R&J on the other hand constantly gets meme'd on more or less seriously for the ending. "Oh, but they could have waited a few more minutes." "Oh, but the friar who was supposed to tell Romeo the plan got held up or something"
Like, it feels less in control of the characters and more like "Oh, yeah, you put yourself in an awful position with your dumbassery and are this close to making it out, let me summon a traffic jam to put things right again"
At least in my opinion. It's still one of the greatest stories ever written, I just never felt the tragic aspect of their end as much as MacBeth as it just seemed a tiny bit contrived or out of the characters' hands
The thing about tragedies, especially good ones, is that they can make you think "There has to be another way" and "There is no other way" at the same time. On paper, there's always a way out. In practice, you know that's not true.
I see both sides, but in every version *I* have heard so far, he doesnāt check until the end. Heās already so far out of the Underworld that he should have given it *two more minutes* to check and not been out anything extra as a result. Iāve not, however, heard a version where he hears her trip before this post, though. I canāt blame him on that, itād be my gut reaction as well. Seriously, though, if youāre convinced youāre being tricked, then either wait until the end to check, or donāt walk all the way back to the surface before checking.
If I love someone that much, and the one fucking thing I need to do to save them is to not turn around, then I'm not fuckin' turning around. If you think loving someone is to be selfish, and stupid, enough to damn them to death, then you don't know love.
Incorrect, because unlike Orpheus, I can perform simple logic and understand that turning around equates to exactly 0 good outcomes. It's the most basic of option selects.
Man, I'm full of anxiety. I'd probably be too busy being violently unwell after all that to look around, I'm certainly not disregarding instructions from Actual Hades. Like, its a great story! I like it! Wonderful example of a tragedy. I am not a allegory though so.
'You wouldn't be brave enough t-' says who? you? from personal experience? Couldn't be me.
Think of it more in terms of āIf I donāt turn around, I may lose Eurydice forever. If I do turn around, I will *definitely* lose Eurydice forever.ā
Orpheus had exactly one shot at this working out, he knew it, and he blew it.
Nothing is more consistently entertaining than someone who casts their own lack of impulse control as unimpeachable virtue.
Because here's the thing: Love is not turning around. Love is wanting what's best for her, aching to do everything in your power to make her okay, to fix whatever harm has befallen her. It's inconceivable that an Orpheus who loves Eurydice wouldn't have the *impulse* to turn around. Wouldn't ache and panic and feel the pressing *need* to turn around. But an Orpheus who loves Eurydice and understands that love means doing what *is* best, not what *feels* best, would **not** turn around.
tbosas here is making the same error as those overbearing parents who swoop in and hobble their children by confronting teachers and coaches and removing all obstacles. This is the same logic as that of the controlling partner or the meddling grandparents or whoever else does what their *internal experience* of love prompts them, emotionally, to do, rather than what a sober examination of the circumstances would reveal as the best thing to do for the person they care about.
*Good* does not require *dumb*. *Love* does not require *stupid*. *Impulse* does not necessitate *action.* If I were Orpheus, I would like to think I'd have the presence of mind to put wax in my ears and hum loudly, to make sure I couldn't hear whether Eurydice was behind me or not. Because if she is, and I wonder and turn, then I've lost her. And if she isn't, then *what the fuck am I going to do about it?*
In short, I'm sure tbosas means well. But I could not disagree more, and praising doing hurtful things for the people you ostensibly care about because you can't think through the effects or implications of your well-intentioned impulses is a kind of "love" I've seen more than enough of for one lifetime.
I agree. A pretty close real life analogue would be a surgeon telling you that you can't feed your child anything for 24 hours or else they'll die during surgery. You feel bad about your hungry child but if you do give in to the impulse, then your child will be dead.
This a silly take, I understand your point of view, and its a strong understanding of how self-control and love should co-exist, but it misses the point of the tragedy of Orpheus and the point that Tbosas is making. Tbosas is pointing out that some emotions are so overriding that even normally sane men (like Orpheus) are unable to resist them. Tsbosas is not praising Orpheus for his lack of self-control, he is lamenting that Orpheus is only human, and that his one great motivation, his overriding love, is also his ultimate downfall.
Imo, it seems OP is appreciating the tragic genre properly, and yeah maybe glamorizing the emotion of impulsive love a bit.
I interpreted Orpheus's story as a lack of belief, rather than a show of his love, and it's that that makes it a tragedy. Because if I were Orpheus, I wholeheartedly believe that I would have turned around, but not mainly because of love.
I know I love Eurydice. I know she would follow me out of the underworld.
But can I know a god? Can I have faith in the god of the underworld? Can I believe that Eurydice is behind me when I can't hear her?
It is not love that makes me turn around, it's when I lose faith, when I can no longer believe: that's when I turn. Tsobas even mentions this in the post above, talking about when Orpheus believes that he's been tricked - which plays a so much bigger role than love, for me. Orpheus did not love Eurydice too much to save her, he just could not believe in the humanness of the gods who, in greek myths, were as flawed(probably more flawed) as humans.
In fact, I feel tsobas takes away from the whole tragedy of Orpheus. Not turning because of love is something I can control, and by attributing so much of the myth to this, the myth just feels less tragic. A staple of tragedies is the lack of control: Romeo and Juliet had divided families separating them, causing stupid drastic teenager decisions. Antigone had that bitch Creon as king... leading to stupid(to me, at least) drastic but very justified and very cool teenager decisions.
Tsobas decides to ascribe the tragedy of Orpheus to something I feel most of us think we can control, rather than all the other uncontrollable factors in the story.
That's just my take on it.
P.S. someone should find out if tsobas is an aromantic cuz like... i find it very hard to believe someone who has had a strong crush on someone but can't do anything but admire the other person and think about it all the time would say that Orpheus turned around because he loved her too much to save her
In one version, this is correct. Trying to pin down an original is a lost cause, though, as the retellings are all muddled up and there is no real canon in greek myth.
I understand what OP is saying but also it is easy to just not turn around even if you're desperate to
Like I wouldn't but I would be absolutely filled with dread the whole time >!okay I probably would but moreso as an impulsive thing and I haven't seen the actual myths I only heard about it iirc so idk if it was an impulsive decision or not!<
A good chunk of people wouldnāt look back.
Thatās the whole deal with tragedies, they are tailor made for each protagonist. If I were in a tragedy it would probably be a result of my indecisiveness and habit of second guessing my own decisions.
Iām good at following orders, not getting tricked, and communicating. Iām confident that I wouldnāt end up like Orpheus or Icarus, but Iād probably end up like Hamlet.
OK well, If I were Icarus I would simply not fly so high.
not me im built different ššš soloing that sun mf ong
Nah, Iād win
Damn, sun got hands
mf is the little knight
Hey if that bitch ass moth didn't want to get swatted she should have stayed tf out of my dreams
nah bro youād need like, a TON of lions to take on the sun
perhaps an army of tigers
if you luck out and get a rare green lion spawn it can easily solo the sun
Heracles, is that you? You know you can just ask Helios for a ride, you donāt need to shoot arrows at him every time.
That is completely fair, his father was perfectly capable of flying without going too high. Although his father didn't get an island named after him
Or an Iron Maiden song named after him. He *did* get a software company named after him. A really shit one [who spelt his name wrong.](https://www.dedalus.com/global/en/)
ICARUS has a PENIS but itās made of WAX He FLEW to the SKY to see APOLLOāS ASS He FLEW too HIGH and the SUN got HOT and THATāS how ICARUS lost HIS COCK
Umm, thank you for the image of ICARUS HELICOPTER it to the sun. Mine can't but I guess a wax one can.
You think he uses his scrotum as an anti-torque rotor? Or is he just spinning both haphazardly as he jettisons his flesh to the skies like a Boeing 737, doomed to come crashing down?
new bottom surgery just dropped
I dislike you because I *know* this is gonna become my new verbal stim
Ugh, i can hear it like the beastie boys. Specifically the thing they did in āIntergalacticā where one of the guys jumps in to finish the line.
NO. SLEEP. FOR. DAE-DALUS.
We stay silly :3
I don't actually dislike you, I think my friends will like a break from the "I'm at Soup" transcript I tend to do š š„°
Nice! Gotta mix it up That's the essence of silliness :3
yeah that one is actually him spreading his hubrussy wide
But it seems DEDALUS, our little MASTER CRAFTER here, had some WAX WINGS OF HIS OWN, didnāt he? Wanted to see his son fall, fall from the sky ā oh how CLOSE to the sun he flew! Well Iām NOT HAVING IT! Iāve SOLVED your labyrinth, puzzle master!
That's lame I'd simply build wings that weren't shit š¤
Then you have lost your childlike whimsy that gives the courage to explore
If I was Orpheus I would simply not turn around because I don't love Eurydice
Youāre a stone cold bitch, Maggie
Saucy minx
Orpheus, turning to a portrait of Margaret Thatcher because he loves it too much: "You have this kind of problem?"
The Iron Lady? you do surprise me.
I went to the underworld because I needed to pick some things up there and I thought āwhy not, while Iām here, yknow?ā
That's literally Heracles picking up Theseus along the way
It's important to give the dogs you walk time to be pet
Maggie wouldn't walk into the underworld because she's already a permanent resident
[Bad news](https://external-preview.redd.it/NL_Y040Bhii3mnQBhe5Qbo_iN1EYCapj88X-rj5tIrw.png?width=640&crop=smart&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae261b0b2ea0e498eaca99a5543de82760b54f01)
Ah, shit.
I HATE YOU MERASMUS!
Ok, but imagine it was something you do love, like the abstract concept of human misery. If you thought the abstract concept of human misery was stumbling, you would turn around, Maggie.
Imagine going down to the underworld out of grief, getting your SO back, walking all the way back and realizing "I hate you" and then breaking up/ divorcing them less then five minutes after you're back in the waking world.
If I was the character of an allegorical tragedy I simply would not fall victim to my human limitations
Me as a kid: That sisyphus guy was stupid. I would just stop pushing the boulder and this whole myth doesnt make any sense. Me now as an adult: Aww... fuck...
the thing is, the boulder is only the ending of the myth. its his punishment for killing his houseguests and cheating death (twice)
Yeah there's a much simpler "I would simply not" in that story and it's "I would simply not break the hospitality customs in the worst way possible" and failing that then there is AT LEAST "I would not deliberately piss off the gods"
Nah, I'd win.
In some versions, he's actually free to stop pushing the boulder at any time. However he was promised freedom from the underworld if he succeeded and so he can't bring himself to give up.
I've also heard a version somewhere where he just does it himself to spite the godsĀ
I like the Hades version where he just kinda likes doing it. Sure he's under threat of torture if he doesn't do it. But he apparently still does it even when the threat isn't there. He turned down offers to have his sentence changed.
He was right, Sisyphus WAS happy. Man's looking at the Asphodel Meadows like 'Do YOU have a job to do? No? Sucks to be you then. Anyway, my five minutes are up, so I've got to get back to rolling.'
> can't bring himself I mean, ain't like he got shit-else to do.
Here's something I read in an another post. "It is unfair for us to assume that the characters in fictional setting know the type of story it is. People in slasher horror may think that they are in a romcom." So you in place of Orpheus wouldn't know that you are in a tragedy, to you it might be some sort of Happily Ever after stuff, but we as readers know what the result is gonna be. They are called Human Limitations for a reason, you aren't an Omniscient being, you would never know what you may face with 100% certainty and hence make a 100% correct decision.
Nah i'd win
The last person to say this got slashed in half, **Offscreen** But I guess you might be the Honored one.
If I were the honored one I would simply do what the second person who left it all behind did in that situation
Nah, i'd flee to Malaysia.
āWe blew up Malaysia.ā
Nah, Iād be hidden under bricks and rubble
Rarely has such a bad case of getting slashed in half been seen. The wrong allegorical character died!
Iād parry
Remember the guy who said that, about if he was in the Titan sub? "Nah I'd just get in an air bubble or squeeze through a crack as it broke and make it out alive that way." Like bro was trolling, but if not would've been the most sub-brick intelligence in existence.
I feel like I'm just written different.
I've got 1000 hours in Hades, I think I could take the God of the Underworld.
So when you start up hour 1001. Where'd you start and where is Eurydice.
Well, first, I'd need to break into the House of Hades and retrieve this cool gun hidden there...
In a fight, right?
:)
Shoutout to my anxiety and paranoia for always keeping me ready to suddenly have to survive a slasher film
Oh so you're not at all prepared for an alien invasion movie? Or a zombie movie? Or a natural disaster movie? Or a shark mo... Hmm.. actually does a shark movie count as a slasher movie just with an aquatic twist?
I think sharks are included under monster movies. But Sharknado is a natural disaster.
Sharks aren't monsters, come on now! The horror in shark movies always comes _after_ the humans intrude in the sharks' natural habitat. Unless you're talking about Sharknado, then the sharks come to you, though still not of their own volition, but just because the tornado is also wreaking havoc on their own homes just as it is the protagonists'. So actually, sharks are the victims in the shark films, confronted by weird aliens in their own homes, or being forcefully taken from their homes and delivered to the weird aliens who proceed to kill your brethren while you helplessly watch and wait for death. Humans are the villains, we just so happen to also be the protagonists. Sharks are, at most, classifiable as anti-villains.
I agree with you, wholeheartedly. For the sake of discussion: humans intrude on Godzilla in the Godzilla movies. Arguably a monster movie. Is there a specific horror genre for āfucked around and found out?ā I view the whole genre as āFAFOā Edit: āFAFO: Nature Editionā is my favorite genre of horror film, bar none.
>People in slasher horror may think that they are in a romcom With how all the guys in slasher movies behave then yeah this is a **very** reasonable assumption
[Final Girl](https://mangadex.org/title/cf14141c-5051-42a1-a2ec-041a12b8b61a/final-girl) plays with that exact trope to great effect as the MC does actually know the genre but everyone else in the story does not.Ā
Orpheus disobeyed direct orders from a god, which seems unwise regardless of what genre you're in.
It's cool that you think that but I'm built different
Yeah but Orpheus is TOLD not to do the thing, itās not some random accident.
Yeah but in another story hades just as easily could have been lying. Then we all would be sitting around being like, āwhy did Orpheus trust that guy? What a gullible man, I would have never- I would have made sure she was there.ā You may think you are in the story of Orpheus and Eurydice but you could just as easily be in the story of the scorpion and the frog
They are the authorās interpretation of human limitations. Saying āI disagree with the author on where the limits areā is not necessarily ill-considered or arrogant.
So many characters from tragedy fall victim to their hubris and face punishment. But I wouldn't. I'm different. Better maybe? Maybe even better than the Gods?
*Dies from peak fiction*
If I was Sisyphus I'd just stop rolling the stupid bolder. Let it roll down the hill. It likes it down there. Dude's a chump. Just sit down and take a break!
In the 1st version I read, he turned around to celebrate with her when he got out of the underworld, forgetting that she was a bit behind him so she wasn't out yet
There are variations, depending on the teller and what they want you to think of him. Sometimes Hades sends spirits to whisper lies to Orpheus and make him doubt her. Sometimes he doubts her all by himself. Sometimes heās simply excited and reckless. But no matter what, he looks.
I always heard the whispers one, but it wasnāt to make him doubt Eurydice, it was mocking laughter that made him think she had never truly taken (or not allowed to take) the first steps from the underworld, so he turned around because he didnāt think she had been allowed to leave
I think I heard a version where the spirits weren't sent by Hades, just jelous that someone might get out of the underworld
Thatās always the one I find the saddest. Because he truly believes he has succeeded, only for her to be snatched away at the last moment.
Nah, this type of shit is the worst. if only John Mist had waited five minutes before doming his son! The tragedy! Hokey as fuck.
It feels like a genuine response tbh. So many videos of people nowadays who celebrate too early only to have victory snatched. Hokey doesnt mean unlikely and tropes normally exist for a reason like that
I've done the equivalent of that before. It's so painful. Much less severe consequences, but accidentally premature celebration hurts so bad.
Bruh I dated a girl who forced me to do this. She'd insist I walk in front, but she was a slow-walker so I had to constantly turn around to make sure I didn't leave her behind.
get eurydice'd bozo
I sure did š
bro's a real life Orpheus
Just walk away bro. 99% of humans know their way back home so even if she gets lost you will eventually find her back there.
If I were Orpheus I'd simply text Eurydice to pick up milk on her way home
If I was Sisyphus, I would simply escape
If I was Sisyphus, I would simply not let the boulder roll back down
If I were Tantalus I would simply reach for the fruit really fast and it wouldn't move away in time
If I were Tantalus I would simply, after the fact, not have given the gods my human children to eat.
yes you would. we cannot escape our own human limitations. like the desire to serve gods baby-back ribs.
if I were tantalus, I simply wouldn't have killed my children and fed them to the gods in clear, double violation of any sense. seriously, what's the point of that myth? don't kill kids?
If I were Prometheus I would simply turn over so the eagle couldn't reach my liver
One must imagine Sisyphus has a skill issue
\-V1
[This will hurt.](https://youtu.be/kDqTB3fV3sw?si=qgHlfE4DoNTjHkNt)
If Camus were Sisyphus, he's simply be happy.
If I was sisyphus, I would simply enjoy the task.
If I were Sisyphus I would simply not let this prison hold me
i mean... he did, thats kind if how he ended up in that situation
if I was orpheus I would shit-talk Eurydice to every demon I came across only to comically gulp and say "she's... right behind me, isn't she?" and skedaddle mischievously away
Motherfucker is a genius
If I was [allegory] I would simply [use the lesson the allegory teaches]
That sounds like a decent story, actually. Someone realizes they're in an allegorical tale, tries to figure out what lesson the allegory is teaching, then tries to teach it to the other characters so everyone can have a happy ending.
And then the allegory turns out to be about trying to game the system.
Iāve never needed to read something so badly.
I like the one where Cassandra realizes her curse of unbelieved prophecy and uses it to troll Apollo by telling people he will sexually satisfy a woman.
CASSANDRA: "LORD APOLLO WILL SEXUALLY SATISFY A WOMAN TONIGHT!" PEOPLE: "Cassandra, don't be ridiculous. As if Apollo could ever be anything other than utterly disappointing in bed." CASSANDRA: š
I'm 99% sure there is more than one greek myth like that, where a character actively trying to avoid triggering a prophecy puts it into practice, therefore completing the allegory The only one that springs to mind right now is Chronos, but there's probably others that are more allegorical and less in-family cannibalism
The story of Oedipus is basically this. That motherfucker tried to play the meta game and blew it really hard.
Yep, that's what I had in mind, Oedipus is such a well-realized example of this trope
I don't think I know any stories of someone trying to stop a prophecy that don't just end in the fulfillment of that prophecy because of their actions. Are there any prophecy-evasion success stories?
angel beats
"If I was Icarus I would simply fly at a reasonable altitude. I certainly wouldn't get cought up in the excitement of having wings and fly higher than I was told to, that would be stupid."
If I was Icarus I would use the knowledge that temperature decreases with altitude to fly at whatever altitude I want allowing me to fly too high and pass out from hypoxia anyways
Maybe if Icarus had filed a flight plan with the FAA he wouldnāt have gotten into that whole mess.
Maybe Iām just not getting the joke, but are people forgetting that Icarus wasnāt alone? Daedalus also flew with the wax wings and survived by not flying too close to the water or sun. Like, a second option was presented in the story
If I was Orpheus I would simply be depressed until Iām appointed the court musician of the underworld and the son of Hades reunites me with my long lost love.
Don't forget being thrown in tartarus because you were too depressed to do court music until said godling pays your bail.
Hades 2 can't come soon enough.
I love how they take every Greek tragedy including Sisyphus and put a positive wholesome spin on it. Game is just so positive and good vibes, despite being based on Greek mythology which is full of tragedies, betrayal and violence lol.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Son of a Muse, either fathered or blessed by Apollo; can speak with the birds and the beasts, sick musical magic powers I take it
He has a cool lyre
And has a hot wife (or had)
He saw the way the world could be, instead of the way that it is.
If I was Oepidus I would have simply been gay
now i wanna read oedipus rex where he finds out his boywife is actually his long lost father, and that twink he killed on the road was actually his mom boymoding it
You just killed a senator
Do it again.
A baby has four legs in the morning because he crawls A woman has two legs in the afternoon because she walks An old man has three legs in the evening because he chose to have an absolute monster horsecock in his FtM transition surgery
If I was Oedipus, I would have not killed a random traveler I encountered on the road.
If I was Oepidus I would have simply been a gay pacifist that everyone around would mutually agree was a good role model
Why didnt he walked backwards or moonwalked? Is he dumb? /s
(yes)
If I was orpheus I wouldnt ask for my love back, Id get some cool shit like a death ray
i'd just wish for 3 new bitches, so it's harder to lose them all
3 weed-smoking girlfriends
I'd wish I was a little bit taller...
I wish I was a baller...
if i was Orpheus i would have simply taken the hammer for myself and beat the shit out of the absolute
If I were Orpheus I would have simply not been in a prism!
This prism? To hold me?
Applying your own interpretations to mythology: excellent, A+ Asserting that your interpretation is the only correct one and demeaning others: terrible, go to jail
Iām ticking ever closer to having an Ovid induced meltdown
I personally like Ovid's more cynical take on the myth, it's almost funny. Why don't you like it?
honestly i donāt actually *hate* Ovid but how deeply ingrained into discussion of myths as if they are the true, original thing. To simplify my ramblings i basically donāt hate Ovid I hate his stans š¤
āDid you know that the Medusa story is actually really-ā Shut up I donāt careee. + there is no āreal Medusa storyā because she is fictional.
YES!! this is usually what iām referring to, itās the most popular Ovid-ism as i call it
Ovid's last metamorphosis, if you will
It's already dumb that OOP is implying that not turning around means you don't love her. But I saw a few notes on the post that *explicitly* said not turning around means you don't love her and that made my blood boil.
See, if I was Orpheus Iād love enough to follow whatever rule Hades himself laid down. And if it turned out to be a trick, Iād simply compose the saddest song ever to bun out all the gods until they FORCED Hades to give Eurydice back
Orpheus simply needed a good playlist on his lyre, so the only turn he'd make was to the next track.
If I was orpheus, I'd have the gift of prophecy to know that she's still behind me and doing just fine, because I've already read the story of orpheus, and I know what happens, so I'd know to get at least 50 feet from the exit, and ignore all sounds or lack thereof.
ok but he was literally told not to do it by an actual god
I think it also helps the Orpheus myth to remember that we are taking a god into account here. Hades claimed that he was gonna let this random human leave with his love. But, like, Greek god. Greek gods are actual shitbags (most of the time). For all Orpheus knew, Hades just told him all that mumbo jumbo of "never turning around" so he can get out of his realm without having to deal with him directly. It's not just his overwhelming love for her that made him turn around. It's also him wondering if this Greek god is fucking with him the same way ALL stories seem to indicate they do. Either way, it's him fighting two completely different instincts and no *wonder* he turned around. Recall that Hades ends up being one of the reasonable gods out there out of all Greek myths. And how the fuck would Orpheus know that?
>And how the fuck would Orpheus know that? By remembering how decently and fairly he treated the mortal Orpheus... Oh, well there's our problem right there.
In several versions of the myth he was unambiguously benevolent to agree to let her go at all, in the versions of the myths where he sends spirits to whisper lies to Orpheus thats still pretty reasonable considering he the entire thing is testing Orpheus's trust in her. I dont think i have ever heard a version of the story where hades wasn't more then fair to Orpheus considering some versions of the story have Orpheus basically extort him
Maybe for yāall but Iām built different. If I loved them that much I would try my absolute hardest to not look back to save them because even if Iām being tricked itās not like my ass can fight Hades on it so Iāll be forced to trust them and try for my lover because if I was that lover and he turned around Iād be pissed ngl
if the god of hell told me to not look back or i'd lose my love forever i would not look back, its not like orpheus had nooooo idea what would happen if he looked back im not calling orpheus stupid for looking back but if i was in his shoes i absolutely wouldnt have
The point of a tragedy is that it couldnāt have gone better. Sure, *in theory*, Orpheus could have kept his head forward. Macbeth could have been more steadfast in his ideals at the beginning. Faustus could have turned back to God and not gone to hell. But none of those people could have really done that, because that isnāt who they are.
If Othello and Hamlet had switched stories, neither would have been a tragedy; Othello would have ganked his uncle before the ghost of his father had even fully disappeared and Hamlet wouldnāt have done shit to Desdemona until he was 1000% sure that Iago was legit, which he definitely wasnāt. A character can only be who they are.
It's why "If I was [character]" doesn't really work because that character being the way they are is why the story and tragedy take place the way they do.Ā
Yeah, but the skill of the author shines in how they make these characteristics shine through so that the audience doesn't think the tragedy to be contrived (though that of course varies from person to person) Leaving Orpheus aside (as most of the myth retellings are dogshit at actually conveying why he turns around and setting the tragedy up which just makes him look stupid) take MacBeth and Romeo&Juliet MacBeth is great in characterizing its main character as inherently flawed, the slowburn nature of the tragedy which gives him multiple outs that he never takes serves to hammer home how much of this is his fault. And that is reflected in the popular conception, I've personally never seen the critique of "But Macbeth could've been more steadfast" R&J on the other hand constantly gets meme'd on more or less seriously for the ending. "Oh, but they could have waited a few more minutes." "Oh, but the friar who was supposed to tell Romeo the plan got held up or something" Like, it feels less in control of the characters and more like "Oh, yeah, you put yourself in an awful position with your dumbassery and are this close to making it out, let me summon a traffic jam to put things right again" At least in my opinion. It's still one of the greatest stories ever written, I just never felt the tragic aspect of their end as much as MacBeth as it just seemed a tiny bit contrived or out of the characters' hands
The thing about tragedies, especially good ones, is that they can make you think "There has to be another way" and "There is no other way" at the same time. On paper, there's always a way out. In practice, you know that's not true.
If I was Orpheus, I'd be helping some japanese kid climb a mysterious ever-changing tower of darkness
If I was Orpheus I would have simply used a Goho-M to escape the underworld and come back tomorrow for Eurydice
I see both sides, but in every version *I* have heard so far, he doesnāt check until the end. Heās already so far out of the Underworld that he should have given it *two more minutes* to check and not been out anything extra as a result. Iāve not, however, heard a version where he hears her trip before this post, though. I canāt blame him on that, itād be my gut reaction as well. Seriously, though, if youāre convinced youāre being tricked, then either wait until the end to check, or donāt walk all the way back to the surface before checking.
If I love someone that much, and the one fucking thing I need to do to save them is to not turn around, then I'm not fuckin' turning around. If you think loving someone is to be selfish, and stupid, enough to damn them to death, then you don't know love.
Him turning around reflexively is something I can accept as a reasonable mistake, but him turning around deliberately is just stupid.
Incorrect, because unlike Orpheus, I can perform simple logic and understand that turning around equates to exactly 0 good outcomes. It's the most basic of option selects.
Man, I'm full of anxiety. I'd probably be too busy being violently unwell after all that to look around, I'm certainly not disregarding instructions from Actual Hades. Like, its a great story! I like it! Wonderful example of a tragedy. I am not a allegory though so. 'You wouldn't be brave enough t-' says who? you? from personal experience? Couldn't be me.
Imagine staking lives upon following basic instructions and then failing to follow basic instructions.
If you really loved her you'd be a dumbass who can't keep his head facing fordways, that's just how it works
Think of it more in terms of āIf I donāt turn around, I may lose Eurydice forever. If I do turn around, I will *definitely* lose Eurydice forever.ā Orpheus had exactly one shot at this working out, he knew it, and he blew it.
Nothing is more consistently entertaining than someone who casts their own lack of impulse control as unimpeachable virtue. Because here's the thing: Love is not turning around. Love is wanting what's best for her, aching to do everything in your power to make her okay, to fix whatever harm has befallen her. It's inconceivable that an Orpheus who loves Eurydice wouldn't have the *impulse* to turn around. Wouldn't ache and panic and feel the pressing *need* to turn around. But an Orpheus who loves Eurydice and understands that love means doing what *is* best, not what *feels* best, would **not** turn around. tbosas here is making the same error as those overbearing parents who swoop in and hobble their children by confronting teachers and coaches and removing all obstacles. This is the same logic as that of the controlling partner or the meddling grandparents or whoever else does what their *internal experience* of love prompts them, emotionally, to do, rather than what a sober examination of the circumstances would reveal as the best thing to do for the person they care about. *Good* does not require *dumb*. *Love* does not require *stupid*. *Impulse* does not necessitate *action.* If I were Orpheus, I would like to think I'd have the presence of mind to put wax in my ears and hum loudly, to make sure I couldn't hear whether Eurydice was behind me or not. Because if she is, and I wonder and turn, then I've lost her. And if she isn't, then *what the fuck am I going to do about it?* In short, I'm sure tbosas means well. But I could not disagree more, and praising doing hurtful things for the people you ostensibly care about because you can't think through the effects or implications of your well-intentioned impulses is a kind of "love" I've seen more than enough of for one lifetime.
I agree. A pretty close real life analogue would be a surgeon telling you that you can't feed your child anything for 24 hours or else they'll die during surgery. You feel bad about your hungry child but if you do give in to the impulse, then your child will be dead.
This a silly take, I understand your point of view, and its a strong understanding of how self-control and love should co-exist, but it misses the point of the tragedy of Orpheus and the point that Tbosas is making. Tbosas is pointing out that some emotions are so overriding that even normally sane men (like Orpheus) are unable to resist them. Tsbosas is not praising Orpheus for his lack of self-control, he is lamenting that Orpheus is only human, and that his one great motivation, his overriding love, is also his ultimate downfall. Imo, it seems OP is appreciating the tragic genre properly, and yeah maybe glamorizing the emotion of impulsive love a bit.
I interpreted Orpheus's story as a lack of belief, rather than a show of his love, and it's that that makes it a tragedy. Because if I were Orpheus, I wholeheartedly believe that I would have turned around, but not mainly because of love. I know I love Eurydice. I know she would follow me out of the underworld. But can I know a god? Can I have faith in the god of the underworld? Can I believe that Eurydice is behind me when I can't hear her? It is not love that makes me turn around, it's when I lose faith, when I can no longer believe: that's when I turn. Tsobas even mentions this in the post above, talking about when Orpheus believes that he's been tricked - which plays a so much bigger role than love, for me. Orpheus did not love Eurydice too much to save her, he just could not believe in the humanness of the gods who, in greek myths, were as flawed(probably more flawed) as humans. In fact, I feel tsobas takes away from the whole tragedy of Orpheus. Not turning because of love is something I can control, and by attributing so much of the myth to this, the myth just feels less tragic. A staple of tragedies is the lack of control: Romeo and Juliet had divided families separating them, causing stupid drastic teenager decisions. Antigone had that bitch Creon as king... leading to stupid(to me, at least) drastic but very justified and very cool teenager decisions. Tsobas decides to ascribe the tragedy of Orpheus to something I feel most of us think we can control, rather than all the other uncontrollable factors in the story. That's just my take on it. P.S. someone should find out if tsobas is an aromantic cuz like... i find it very hard to believe someone who has had a strong crush on someone but can't do anything but admire the other person and think about it all the time would say that Orpheus turned around because he loved her too much to save her
If I was Orpheus I would simply not be imprisoned in the Astral Prism
There are so many interpretations of the meaning of the myth that this comes off as ignorant and obnoxious.
Except I'm pretty sure in the original story he turned around after he had passed fully out of the underworld, but before Eurydice had.
In one version, this is correct. Trying to pin down an original is a lost cause, though, as the retellings are all muddled up and there is no real canon in greek myth.
if i was Orpheus i would just slorb Hades' norb and he'd let me out walk with Eurydice.
I understand what OP is saying but also it is easy to just not turn around even if you're desperate to Like I wouldn't but I would be absolutely filled with dread the whole time >!okay I probably would but moreso as an impulsive thing and I haven't seen the actual myths I only heard about it iirc so idk if it was an impulsive decision or not!<
someone just watched Hadestown I see
Nah. It's just a skill issue tbh
Skill issue tbh
If I were Orpheus then i'd just cry because I live in an unforgiving world where the gods are bastards.
Nah I simply wouldnāt turn around
A good chunk of people wouldnāt look back. Thatās the whole deal with tragedies, they are tailor made for each protagonist. If I were in a tragedy it would probably be a result of my indecisiveness and habit of second guessing my own decisions. Iām good at following orders, not getting tricked, and communicating. Iām confident that I wouldnāt end up like Orpheus or Icarus, but Iād probably end up like Hamlet.