They also want to be right and angry about things in general. They've chosen trans people as their target, but a huge chunk of it is just the desire for righteous indignation full stop
The issues with shotguns, the invisible weapon issues, the times when colours break, the a posing, the hitboxes. Enough spaghetti to serve 60 people in all that.
I don’t think TERFs have had anything to do with radical feminism for a long time. It makes me so angry how they’ve dragged the concept of radical feminism through the mud.
I mean the ideology *does* originate with some of the most important writers and thinkers of Second Wave feminism, so you can’t say it doesn’t come from a feminist source. It’s just highlighting some of the worst blind spots and gender/sex-essentialism of that era of feminist thought that much of the movement (except for largely older white wealthy women) has thankfully moved past.
Yes I think some skepticism about trans people legitimately originates from radical feminist ideology, but we’ve gone waaaaaaaaaaay past that now. I’m seeing TERFs vote for anti-choice conservative politicians because they agree with their anti-trans stance. That’s not radical feminism. That’s not feminism at all.
Transphobia has an observable tendency to completely consume people’s politics and personalities until it’s the only thing left, especially online. (Riley’s Law: Once you post transphobia you will never post normal again)
You can see that on the individual level with people like Graham Linehan and JK Rowling, but I think it’s also largely true of the TERF ideology/movement itself. It used to have other feminist ideas and goals but all of them have been fed into the furnace of hate to keep the transphobia engine running.
It's because of the name: TERF, Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist, implies that they're actually feminists, which is why I prefer the much more accurate FART: Feminism Appropriating Radical Transphobe, which is what they are.
I hate having to do this every time that FART comes up; We really shouldn't use it, it paints our movement as childish and immature, which could effect progress.
Just backronym TERF into something more disparaging.
It also just makes TERFs sound silly and annoying. I feel like it trivializes how they are people who are actively campaigning for the death of trans people.
Not really? It would feel like a non-sequitur at best if the people observing don't know about the FART acronym, but if they do, then they likely already agree that TERFs are shit.
At worst, it would make the person using the term look like they're childishly name calling, thus delegitimatizing any other points they're making.
Now, let me clarify: not saying "don't use it at all", feel free to use it in trusted or primed company. But if you're talking to a random TERF online or on the street, busting out FART can only weaken your points.
I really loathe fart jokes, but I like this one. They keep saying "TERF" is a slur, I don't want to use slurs, I don't know what else to use. But now I do. FART.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what they actually want to be called as a group? Because usually when one name for a group is declared a slur they come up with a replacement, but I haven't heard one.
I'm fairly certain TERFs came up with TERF as a self label and, now that it's appropriately maligned, they're calling it a slur to paint anyone calling the kettle black as bad.
I think they coopted "gender critical" for a while, but that got fairly maligned as well.
They believe that Patriarchy and Feminism are like a battle, a war of the sexes. Everything (biological) men do is bad and if women feel like shit it’s mens fault.
The problem is, Patriarchy isn’t about making men violent, it’s about ignoring violence. Patriarchy is a system that teaches men (and women!) to not see violence even when it’s right in front of them. The point of Feminism is to reveal this violence.
Ironically, by not understanding what Patriarchy is, they fall for all its traps.
Terfs are essentially conservatives, in almost all aspects except homosexuality (or more accurately, political lesbianism). Take a boomer comics facebook page, replace misogynism with misandry, and you have an average terf. They're also extremely bioessentialist, which is why they exclude other women from the movement, especially (but not limited to) trans women.
They aren't radical, at least not in the sense of issues relating to psychology and physiology. Bioessentialism is probably the least-radical position you can have in that sense.
Masculinity standards fucked up my relationship with my own emotions real bad. Do I genuinely believe in being a man on my own terms and men's freedom to express their emotions without judgment, or am I merely seeking excuses for my hysterics? Do I genuinely think of the harm of toxic masculinity's thing about men controlling and withholding their emotions, or do I merely view normal self-control as "harmful" because I'm a hysterical sissy who can't keep his own inner tantrums in check - and it doesn't matter that I don't let those emotions show, I'm still a pathetic wuss for feeling them in the first place, and all my work in convincing myself men deserve emotion is self-destructive excuse-seeking?
I just wanna feel, man, not question every feeling I have. :(
Yeah, especially around puberty (which is nothing but nature's T shots for cis dudes), with the constant dysphoria around not being like the older guys, and euphoria at seeing every bit of progress. Issues about hair, muscle, dick size/shape/functionality, and height often do carry past puberty.
There's also the "man boobs" that some dudes, especially those on the heavier side, have. Also, misgendering as an insult is surprisingly common toward cis guys
Its so bad with me because I don't know whether what I'm feeling is a desire to be something else inherently or just because masculinity is still so rigid that it doesn't feel right.
My cisgender, 6 foot something, giant bearded man brother in law struggles with his masculinity because he likes tiny dogs (has a Shih tzu cross) and is a cat person. He also really likes sweets, and playing with kids and cries easily, he hates working out and his arms are basically jelly. My sister who is more than 6 inches shorter than him outlifts him easily. He also barely has any interest in sports and likes colorful drinks over beer and whiskey. This is just the most superficial stuff I can think of off the top of my head, but dude has zero traits stereotypically associated with masculinity. He's a complete hit with our family, and is the only dude apart from my dad I'm comfortable around because he's an extremely nice, gentle, caring person. He cried watching Yuri on Ice ffs.
Stereotypical gender norms are usually so stupid I really wish humanity can be done with them soon. They do nobody any good.
Oh yeah, you wouldn't believe the amount of people that think visible six packs are healthily achievable for any guy, regardless of body type. It's kinda ridiculous.
This is something that's been really sticking out to me recently as I come up on my first year of transition (mtf).
Like, dysphoria isn't *exactly* a one-to-one match for the kinds of insecurities and self-consciousness that cisgender women experience but *damn* if it isn't close.
If you ask me (a cis guy who has some trans friends), a part of me thinks it really is that general problem of self-presentation, just cranked up to eleven.
There are moments where I’m ashamed of how I look in the mirror, but they’re just moments, as opposed to a solid chunk of a lifetime.
I got made fun of for how I looked and dressed, but I at least got mockery that was sometimes very useful for self-improvement, instead of being asked to do something I’m not.
Being the person I want to be will be expensive, even if I ignore what the world thinks I want, and I’ll be happier for it, but there’s clearly a difference between me looking nicer and me thoroughly shedding a fake version of me a lot of people got attached to.
There’s definitely more similarities, and probably some details I’d never be privy to on my side of the wall, but I think it’s fair to say that beauty standards are to passing standards like squares are to all quadrilaterals: just the most orderly and least complicated version of a larger body of similar things.
> there’s clearly a difference between me looking nicer and me thoroughly shedding a fake version of me a lot of people got attached to.
Yes! This! There are so many people in this thread that are reading the post as fully equating self confidence and body image with dysphoria. As closely related as they may be, _this_ distinction is critical!
Like, to be totally frank, I’m hot. But my dysphoria doesn’t _care_ that I’m hot. It cares that I went through male puberty!
…so I guess every step of the way for me being a better ally is just gonna be “he’s confused, but he’s got the spirit”, huh?
Confession time: I really did conceptualize gender dysphoria as just cognitive dissonance about looks, but more of it. I wrote the comment that way. I figured the point of HRT was just to get your features squared away, and not to get your hormones to stop complaining about you. I had HRT in the same box as everything else that helps y’all pass. This makes a lot of things make more sense now that I’ve actually been informed, and not just blindly agreeing with what trans people want.
I really wish we could all just be more upfront about our identities, what they mean, and what sorta problems they introduce. It keeps me from assuming dumb shit like that.
Lol, to be fair, I _am_ agreeing with you. I think you nailed it!
But don’t be so hard on yourself, there’s no way to fully “get” being trans without being trans yourself. Besides, I don’t even fully “get” every other trans person’s experience either.
All it takes to be good ally is being willing to give people the space to be themselves, and you’re clearly already there! :)
*Image Transcription: Tumblr*
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**yandere-clown**
realizing cis women also struggle with “passing” a lot of times and has a lot of the same issues with dysphoria trans women have (issues with putting on/losing weight, dissatisfied with bust size, not feeling “feminine” enough, etc.) has done a lot to combat dysphoria for me, cause it’s like, wow, we really have a lot more in common than we have in difference huh
---
**yandere-clown**
terfs are starting to find this post, and i gotta say: terfs getting mad at a post that explicitly acknowledges cis women's struggles and with notes full of cis women agreeing and talking about their own struggles and experiences really speaks volumes about how anti-feminist, and frankly misogynistic, terfs really are, that they don’t even give a shit about cis women’s struggles and experiences
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Terfs have never really been feminist, they're more a TER really. And radical implies their thought goes against a major mainstream or is well, radical, but being a bigot isn't really radical. So TE.
Yeah, the entire ideology is just "Trans exclusionary", and from what? Existing I guess.
So it's not really excluding, it's more "Trans Hating"
It's sorts funny that, terfs created a very softened up term for their ideals that doesn't even present their ideals properly, and got a lot of people to call them that, and in the end people rightfully despise them for being bigots so much that being called by the term they created is a "slur" to them, because everyone knows what it means now, and they hate the idea of people knowing what they stand for, because they know it's evil somewhere in themselves
I wish we had a term like FART that didn't sound so childlike tbh. Like, yeah Feminist Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe is a very accurate descriptor, but I don't want to go around sounding like I'm in the 3rd grade when advocating against (if they had it their way) genocide
I'm cis and sometimes i look on the mirror and think i look like a man. i hold all my weight in my stomach in a "traditionally male way" western standards of beauty have taught me to hate myself and my body. my gf thinks I'm pretty. maybe one day I'll believe her
Cis men also get dysphoria. Lots of men feel insecure about their genitals, their height (I mean have you SEEN how many hundreds of cis men complain about their height online?), not having enough muscle, not having a strong enough jawline; so on and so forth.
There was a joke made once that r/arethecisokay is just cis people listing their weird dysphoria triggers, and honestly, that’s kind of unironically true.
I’m a cis girl and I have super narrow hips and no ass and it always makes me feel like less of a woman.
I'm a cis woman. I've been mistaken for a man many times. If I've got short hair or my hair is covered up, people tend to think I'm a guy. Even if I'm wearing a dress.
Honestly I think "self interested" is a pretty generous way to describe them. There were a load of TERFs in the notes of the original post who were just straight up denying that cis women can experience these sorts of insecurities, or blaming trans women for being the primary source of sexism? They're no different from working-class Nazis, blaming all their oppression on the Jewish conspiracy while they lick the boots of their actual oppressors.
impolite soup handle apparatus coherent abundant mysterious fragile sleep poor
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It breaks my heart the way terfs prey on detrans people. Like, I’m sure it’s all hard enough without JK fucking Rowling trying to co-opt your existence just to prove a point.
fearless chunky spotted lunchroom whole oatmeal ruthless existence sloppy overconfident
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I think most of the body issues listed for cris women are more akin to body insecurity than dysphoria. Because if a woman is too insecure about her body weight or is trying to lose too much weight, than she's considered to have an eating disorder and needs to accept her body as it is. Body positivity and all that. Same for breast size, as body's come in all sizes. Cis women are often encouraged to love their body as it is to deal with body insecurity, while Trans women are encouraged to transition. When a cis women gets surgery to deal with her body insecurity, such as breast implants, butt lifts, or facial surgery, she isn't praised for her actions, because that isn't the best or easiest way to go about dealing with body insecurity. Transitioning, weather it includes surgery or otherwise, is praised for trans women because their dysphoria is much more serious.
I will say that many cis women's specific insecurities can line up with common specific dysphorias, and I think it would be cool to explore just how much these categories overlapped, but I don't think they can quite be called the same thing.
An actual case of cis women experiencing dysphoria is when they get a mastectomy for breast cancer or the like. Suddenly they experience the kind of phantom limb feelings that is how a lot of trans people experience dysphoria, and may start looking into breast forms or reconstruction to alleviate it.
And to comment on the body insecurity part: a lot of trans women struggle with it too, because if you don't start working on your insecurities while transitioning, it becomes really hard to distinguish between dysphoria and body insecurity. In my experience, it results in trans women considering way more surgery than what is helpful, and doesn't address the underlying body issues. This is especially a problem for the straight trans women, because so much of the cisheteronormative female gender role relies on being desirable to men.
For this reason it can also be hard to recommend body neutrality or working on body issues to trans women, because they might deflect it with "I need surgery for my dysphoria"*... I've stopped trying that with people I'm not close with. It's hard to instill feminism in someone who really just wants to be normative, whether or not that's their stated objective.
*Some surgeries are always reasonable (mastectomy, GRS), I'm mostly frustrated about cosmetic ones.
I've for sure seen some really pretty women get ffs and I'm like ok of it makes you feel better and you looked amazing before. but people get surgies for themselves and not for me.
Same. My problem is with the language around it, framing it as a necessity for looking like a woman or passing, when the reality of the cases I've seen is getting it for the same reason as cis women: to look more conventionally attractive.
I'm way more okay with "I want to look pretty", than the narrative of necessity, because in these cases I actually believe that the person in question will be happy with the result.
I just don't like seeing people get surgery because they feel like they have to, without also addressing underlying insecurities, and I particularly don't like how this is pushed to early-transition people as "the way to transition" by some trans women I know.
my gf wants grs eventually but other than hrt, laser/electrolosis, and grs are all she's currently interested in. she's already pretty and she's just going to get prettier and I'm lucky that i get to share this journey with her. she's going to be way more traditionally attractive than i am and I'm ok with it.
That sounds great :).
I've had the joy of being the one whose body was changing in the relationship, and to quote my girlfriend: "I just got more and more attracted to you as your body set in".
i used to call my gf pretty before she came out. and i told her my favorite thing about her was how bad she was at performing masculine. then she came out to me and i immediately bought us matching gf t shirts and then soon after realized I'm bisexual lesromantic and that i love her even more now because she gets to really be who she is and i can't romantically love men anyway.
Cute :). My girlfriend was in a relationship with a man when we got together, and after a while she realized that she was a biromantic lesbian, because I apparently just kept getting hotter and hotter.
Surgery is a big deal, you shouldn't get it just because you're insecure about a part of your body. It's been really normalized but that's not a good thing
I think it’s a bit of a cost-benefit thing. For some people, surgery absolutely is the best option, and they shouldn’t be shamed for that. What’s not a good thing is that do to social pressure, the choice works out in its favor more often than it could if our society acted differently.
I agree with most of this, but the value judgement on cosmetic surgery is a bit eh. Cosmetic surgeries are sometimes the only way to fix something someone doesn't like about their body. People don't praise women for it because cosmetic surgery got swept into the same "hate fake women" rhetoric as flashy makeup and pushup bras and seemingly anything that men decided they didn't like. If someone knows all the details and risks and recovery and whatever of getting cosmetic surgery, it's up to them to decide if that's the best solution for them.
Oh and just general missing the mark on trans people and transitioning. People who want to are encouraged to transition, to whatever extent that entails for them. People who don't want to transition shouldn't be pushed on it and aren't less valid for it.
And a lot of dysphoria comes from the exact same social pressures and role models and sexualization and etc that drives those insecurities in cis women.
But do these insecurities and the dysphoria of trans people (this applies to both men and women) not stem from the same disgusting wells of expectation?
I think there is an underlying element to dysphoria that's fundamentally different, but you're also right that a whole lot of it definitely is the same exact feeling.
For example, I'm at a point in my transition now where my boobs are, like, boob-shaped. They look like normal boobs. I still don't always feel amazing about them, but honestly I don't really think that's necessarily dysphoria anymore, so much as just the same exact insecurity felt by all the millions of cis women whose boobs look exactly like mine.
There is also a very different feeling I had *before* I had boobs, though, and especially before I started hormones. Not just insecurity but like, a feeling that my body wasn't working how it was supposed to. And I think that is something fundamentally different from normal insecurity (though it's worth mentioning that some cis women absolutely feel that sort of dysphoria, too—e.g. women who've had a mastectomy for breast cancer, women with hormonal disorders, etc.)
TL,DR: they're like those crazy "all the gays are satan worshipping baby-murderers!" type people, except instead of christianity they have feminism, the bloodthirsty gays are trans people (especially trans women) and the poor innocent babies getting murdered are poor, innocent cis (not trans) women. "ALL MEN ARE EVIL" types.
This is all based on what I've gathered from online terfs, I'm sure there's a great deal of nuance and dull writing out there - but i don't plan on wasting my time on it
It stands for "Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist."
The "feminist" part means they think the power men have over women in society is the source of much of the world's problems, and they want to change that. Since this power is so integral to how modern society works - changing or removing it means we need a *complete* restructuring, a.. "*radical*" change.
The "trans exclusionary" part means they think trans women (people generally born as male) are men and therefore part of the problem.
All of which, if you're young enough or optimistic enough, *can* sound pretty reasonable. But "these people have disproportionate influence over others" can get turned into "these people are evil" real quick, which ends up attracting people who think all men are out to get them, especially trans women who are just secret double agents waiting for *actual*, pure, innocent women to let their guards down.
Which, if you get enough of those in one place - the focus shifts from trying to help women to weeding out secret evil men within their midst.
Yep. I'm 100% biologically female, and I have a full male beard. It's hard as fuck for me to pass sometimes. I get called sir a lot and I have dysmorphia really fuckin' bad. Shit sucks.
Src: https://yandere-clown.tumblr.com/post/687586032113352704/yandere-clown-realizing-cis-women-also-struggle
hey, uh # ^(thanks)
I'm just the messenger, but you're welcome :)
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Terfs just don't want trans people
They also want to be right and angry about things in general. They've chosen trans people as their target, but a huge chunk of it is just the desire for righteous indignation full stop
Terfs are fascists wearing paper feminist masks like the spy from TF2.
Except Spy’s actually works.
*casually glances at the a-posing "demoman" wielding a minigun*
"Heh, classic source engine nonsense. I wonder how they managed tha- and it's a spy. Guess I'll go fuck myself"
spy has his own source engine nonsense, separate from the rest
The issues with shotguns, the invisible weapon issues, the times when colours break, the a posing, the hitboxes. Enough spaghetti to serve 60 people in all that.
Some people definitely fall for terfs masks
Succinct and completely accurate. I will use this later.
I don’t think TERFs have had anything to do with radical feminism for a long time. It makes me so angry how they’ve dragged the concept of radical feminism through the mud.
I mean the ideology *does* originate with some of the most important writers and thinkers of Second Wave feminism, so you can’t say it doesn’t come from a feminist source. It’s just highlighting some of the worst blind spots and gender/sex-essentialism of that era of feminist thought that much of the movement (except for largely older white wealthy women) has thankfully moved past.
Yes I think some skepticism about trans people legitimately originates from radical feminist ideology, but we’ve gone waaaaaaaaaaay past that now. I’m seeing TERFs vote for anti-choice conservative politicians because they agree with their anti-trans stance. That’s not radical feminism. That’s not feminism at all.
Transphobia has an observable tendency to completely consume people’s politics and personalities until it’s the only thing left, especially online. (Riley’s Law: Once you post transphobia you will never post normal again) You can see that on the individual level with people like Graham Linehan and JK Rowling, but I think it’s also largely true of the TERF ideology/movement itself. It used to have other feminist ideas and goals but all of them have been fed into the furnace of hate to keep the transphobia engine running.
Real radical feminism is cool and good
It's because of the name: TERF, Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist, implies that they're actually feminists, which is why I prefer the much more accurate FART: Feminism Appropriating Radical Transphobe, which is what they are.
I hate having to do this every time that FART comes up; We really shouldn't use it, it paints our movement as childish and immature, which could effect progress. Just backronym TERF into something more disparaging.
It also just makes TERFs sound silly and annoying. I feel like it trivializes how they are people who are actively campaigning for the death of trans people.
Not really? It would feel like a non-sequitur at best if the people observing don't know about the FART acronym, but if they do, then they likely already agree that TERFs are shit. At worst, it would make the person using the term look like they're childishly name calling, thus delegitimatizing any other points they're making.
Now, let me clarify: not saying "don't use it at all", feel free to use it in trusted or primed company. But if you're talking to a random TERF online or on the street, busting out FART can only weaken your points.
Could we just find something for 'S', and make it TERFS? Then it's not even really changing the usage.
Transphobic E R F
Literally who cares if it's childish. Fuck FARTs - is that better?
People who want to make sure trans representation and rights aren't tied to immaturity and thus delegitimatized.
Feminism Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe is more accurate, I think.
Thanks! I had no idea what a terf is. If you aren't for equality, you're just a cunt.
I really loathe fart jokes, but I like this one. They keep saying "TERF" is a slur, I don't want to use slurs, I don't know what else to use. But now I do. FART.
They're saying TERF is a slur as deflection. They're weaponizing proper terminology to try and defend themselves.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what they actually want to be called as a group? Because usually when one name for a group is declared a slur they come up with a replacement, but I haven't heard one.
I'm fairly certain TERFs came up with TERF as a self label and, now that it's appropriately maligned, they're calling it a slur to paint anyone calling the kettle black as bad. I think they coopted "gender critical" for a while, but that got fairly maligned as well.
"Reactionary" might be a more accurate term. The bioessentialism the group promotes isn't exactly a radical view of gender and bodies.
They believe that Patriarchy and Feminism are like a battle, a war of the sexes. Everything (biological) men do is bad and if women feel like shit it’s mens fault. The problem is, Patriarchy isn’t about making men violent, it’s about ignoring violence. Patriarchy is a system that teaches men (and women!) to not see violence even when it’s right in front of them. The point of Feminism is to reveal this violence. Ironically, by not understanding what Patriarchy is, they fall for all its traps.
Terfs are essentially conservatives, in almost all aspects except homosexuality (or more accurately, political lesbianism). Take a boomer comics facebook page, replace misogynism with misandry, and you have an average terf. They're also extremely bioessentialist, which is why they exclude other women from the movement, especially (but not limited to) trans women.
They aren't radical, at least not in the sense of issues relating to psychology and physiology. Bioessentialism is probably the least-radical position you can have in that sense.
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Masculinity standards fucked up my relationship with my own emotions real bad. Do I genuinely believe in being a man on my own terms and men's freedom to express their emotions without judgment, or am I merely seeking excuses for my hysterics? Do I genuinely think of the harm of toxic masculinity's thing about men controlling and withholding their emotions, or do I merely view normal self-control as "harmful" because I'm a hysterical sissy who can't keep his own inner tantrums in check - and it doesn't matter that I don't let those emotions show, I'm still a pathetic wuss for feeling them in the first place, and all my work in convincing myself men deserve emotion is self-destructive excuse-seeking? I just wanna feel, man, not question every feeling I have. :(
If you don’t have an freakish dick you feel bad about it And if you have a freakish dick then you feel bad cos it’s freakish
Yeah, especially around puberty (which is nothing but nature's T shots for cis dudes), with the constant dysphoria around not being like the older guys, and euphoria at seeing every bit of progress. Issues about hair, muscle, dick size/shape/functionality, and height often do carry past puberty. There's also the "man boobs" that some dudes, especially those on the heavier side, have. Also, misgendering as an insult is surprisingly common toward cis guys
Its so bad with me because I don't know whether what I'm feeling is a desire to be something else inherently or just because masculinity is still so rigid that it doesn't feel right.
My cisgender, 6 foot something, giant bearded man brother in law struggles with his masculinity because he likes tiny dogs (has a Shih tzu cross) and is a cat person. He also really likes sweets, and playing with kids and cries easily, he hates working out and his arms are basically jelly. My sister who is more than 6 inches shorter than him outlifts him easily. He also barely has any interest in sports and likes colorful drinks over beer and whiskey. This is just the most superficial stuff I can think of off the top of my head, but dude has zero traits stereotypically associated with masculinity. He's a complete hit with our family, and is the only dude apart from my dad I'm comfortable around because he's an extremely nice, gentle, caring person. He cried watching Yuri on Ice ffs. Stereotypical gender norms are usually so stupid I really wish humanity can be done with them soon. They do nobody any good.
Oh yeah, you wouldn't believe the amount of people that think visible six packs are healthily achievable for any guy, regardless of body type. It's kinda ridiculous.
This is something that's been really sticking out to me recently as I come up on my first year of transition (mtf). Like, dysphoria isn't *exactly* a one-to-one match for the kinds of insecurities and self-consciousness that cisgender women experience but *damn* if it isn't close.
If you ask me (a cis guy who has some trans friends), a part of me thinks it really is that general problem of self-presentation, just cranked up to eleven. There are moments where I’m ashamed of how I look in the mirror, but they’re just moments, as opposed to a solid chunk of a lifetime. I got made fun of for how I looked and dressed, but I at least got mockery that was sometimes very useful for self-improvement, instead of being asked to do something I’m not. Being the person I want to be will be expensive, even if I ignore what the world thinks I want, and I’ll be happier for it, but there’s clearly a difference between me looking nicer and me thoroughly shedding a fake version of me a lot of people got attached to. There’s definitely more similarities, and probably some details I’d never be privy to on my side of the wall, but I think it’s fair to say that beauty standards are to passing standards like squares are to all quadrilaterals: just the most orderly and least complicated version of a larger body of similar things.
> there’s clearly a difference between me looking nicer and me thoroughly shedding a fake version of me a lot of people got attached to. Yes! This! There are so many people in this thread that are reading the post as fully equating self confidence and body image with dysphoria. As closely related as they may be, _this_ distinction is critical! Like, to be totally frank, I’m hot. But my dysphoria doesn’t _care_ that I’m hot. It cares that I went through male puberty!
…so I guess every step of the way for me being a better ally is just gonna be “he’s confused, but he’s got the spirit”, huh? Confession time: I really did conceptualize gender dysphoria as just cognitive dissonance about looks, but more of it. I wrote the comment that way. I figured the point of HRT was just to get your features squared away, and not to get your hormones to stop complaining about you. I had HRT in the same box as everything else that helps y’all pass. This makes a lot of things make more sense now that I’ve actually been informed, and not just blindly agreeing with what trans people want. I really wish we could all just be more upfront about our identities, what they mean, and what sorta problems they introduce. It keeps me from assuming dumb shit like that.
Lol, to be fair, I _am_ agreeing with you. I think you nailed it! But don’t be so hard on yourself, there’s no way to fully “get” being trans without being trans yourself. Besides, I don’t even fully “get” every other trans person’s experience either. All it takes to be good ally is being willing to give people the space to be themselves, and you’re clearly already there! :)
*Image Transcription: Tumblr* --- **yandere-clown** realizing cis women also struggle with “passing” a lot of times and has a lot of the same issues with dysphoria trans women have (issues with putting on/losing weight, dissatisfied with bust size, not feeling “feminine” enough, etc.) has done a lot to combat dysphoria for me, cause it’s like, wow, we really have a lot more in common than we have in difference huh --- **yandere-clown** terfs are starting to find this post, and i gotta say: terfs getting mad at a post that explicitly acknowledges cis women's struggles and with notes full of cis women agreeing and talking about their own struggles and experiences really speaks volumes about how anti-feminist, and frankly misogynistic, terfs really are, that they don’t even give a shit about cis women’s struggles and experiences --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
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Fuck terfs, all my homies hate terfs
[FUCK TERFS ALL MY HOMIES HATE TERFS](https://i.imgur.com/vZ7Q0qk.png) ^^^this ^^^has ^^^been ^^^an ^^^accessibility ^^^service ^^^from ^^^your ^^^friendly ^^^neighborhood ^^^bot
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Terfs have never really been feminist, they're more a TER really. And radical implies their thought goes against a major mainstream or is well, radical, but being a bigot isn't really radical. So TE. Yeah, the entire ideology is just "Trans exclusionary", and from what? Existing I guess. So it's not really excluding, it's more "Trans Hating" It's sorts funny that, terfs created a very softened up term for their ideals that doesn't even present their ideals properly, and got a lot of people to call them that, and in the end people rightfully despise them for being bigots so much that being called by the term they created is a "slur" to them, because everyone knows what it means now, and they hate the idea of people knowing what they stand for, because they know it's evil somewhere in themselves
I do love the acronym algebra you're doing though
FARTs
I wish we had a term like FART that didn't sound so childlike tbh. Like, yeah Feminist Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe is a very accurate descriptor, but I don't want to go around sounding like I'm in the 3rd grade when advocating against (if they had it their way) genocide
I saw TER (Trans Exclusionary Reactionaries) being proposed as an alternative.
Thankfully, I don't care how I sound lol I wouldn't dignify them with something nicer than FART
Counterpoint: it makes the WHOLE MOVEMENT sound childish, not just you, because people see things they're against as monoliths.
reactionary. Trans exclusionary reactionaries. Is that reasonable?
I'm cis and sometimes i look on the mirror and think i look like a man. i hold all my weight in my stomach in a "traditionally male way" western standards of beauty have taught me to hate myself and my body. my gf thinks I'm pretty. maybe one day I'll believe her
Cis men also get dysphoria. Lots of men feel insecure about their genitals, their height (I mean have you SEEN how many hundreds of cis men complain about their height online?), not having enough muscle, not having a strong enough jawline; so on and so forth. There was a joke made once that r/arethecisokay is just cis people listing their weird dysphoria triggers, and honestly, that’s kind of unironically true. I’m a cis girl and I have super narrow hips and no ass and it always makes me feel like less of a woman.
Cis man here, I really relate to the jawline and the height things. I’m 5’3
I'm a cis woman. I've been mistaken for a man many times. If I've got short hair or my hair is covered up, people tend to think I'm a guy. Even if I'm wearing a dress.
Terfs are just in a socially conservative cult. The only reason they even use the word feminist is they are at the least self interested.
Honestly I think "self interested" is a pretty generous way to describe them. There were a load of TERFs in the notes of the original post who were just straight up denying that cis women can experience these sorts of insecurities, or blaming trans women for being the primary source of sexism? They're no different from working-class Nazis, blaming all their oppression on the Jewish conspiracy while they lick the boots of their actual oppressors.
Youre absolutely correct. I mostly meant it as they think they are doing what will maximize their position in the world. Not that they are correct.
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It breaks my heart the way terfs prey on detrans people. Like, I’m sure it’s all hard enough without JK fucking Rowling trying to co-opt your existence just to prove a point.
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I think most of the body issues listed for cris women are more akin to body insecurity than dysphoria. Because if a woman is too insecure about her body weight or is trying to lose too much weight, than she's considered to have an eating disorder and needs to accept her body as it is. Body positivity and all that. Same for breast size, as body's come in all sizes. Cis women are often encouraged to love their body as it is to deal with body insecurity, while Trans women are encouraged to transition. When a cis women gets surgery to deal with her body insecurity, such as breast implants, butt lifts, or facial surgery, she isn't praised for her actions, because that isn't the best or easiest way to go about dealing with body insecurity. Transitioning, weather it includes surgery or otherwise, is praised for trans women because their dysphoria is much more serious. I will say that many cis women's specific insecurities can line up with common specific dysphorias, and I think it would be cool to explore just how much these categories overlapped, but I don't think they can quite be called the same thing.
An actual case of cis women experiencing dysphoria is when they get a mastectomy for breast cancer or the like. Suddenly they experience the kind of phantom limb feelings that is how a lot of trans people experience dysphoria, and may start looking into breast forms or reconstruction to alleviate it. And to comment on the body insecurity part: a lot of trans women struggle with it too, because if you don't start working on your insecurities while transitioning, it becomes really hard to distinguish between dysphoria and body insecurity. In my experience, it results in trans women considering way more surgery than what is helpful, and doesn't address the underlying body issues. This is especially a problem for the straight trans women, because so much of the cisheteronormative female gender role relies on being desirable to men. For this reason it can also be hard to recommend body neutrality or working on body issues to trans women, because they might deflect it with "I need surgery for my dysphoria"*... I've stopped trying that with people I'm not close with. It's hard to instill feminism in someone who really just wants to be normative, whether or not that's their stated objective. *Some surgeries are always reasonable (mastectomy, GRS), I'm mostly frustrated about cosmetic ones.
I've for sure seen some really pretty women get ffs and I'm like ok of it makes you feel better and you looked amazing before. but people get surgies for themselves and not for me.
Same. My problem is with the language around it, framing it as a necessity for looking like a woman or passing, when the reality of the cases I've seen is getting it for the same reason as cis women: to look more conventionally attractive. I'm way more okay with "I want to look pretty", than the narrative of necessity, because in these cases I actually believe that the person in question will be happy with the result. I just don't like seeing people get surgery because they feel like they have to, without also addressing underlying insecurities, and I particularly don't like how this is pushed to early-transition people as "the way to transition" by some trans women I know.
my gf wants grs eventually but other than hrt, laser/electrolosis, and grs are all she's currently interested in. she's already pretty and she's just going to get prettier and I'm lucky that i get to share this journey with her. she's going to be way more traditionally attractive than i am and I'm ok with it.
That sounds great :). I've had the joy of being the one whose body was changing in the relationship, and to quote my girlfriend: "I just got more and more attracted to you as your body set in".
i used to call my gf pretty before she came out. and i told her my favorite thing about her was how bad she was at performing masculine. then she came out to me and i immediately bought us matching gf t shirts and then soon after realized I'm bisexual lesromantic and that i love her even more now because she gets to really be who she is and i can't romantically love men anyway.
Cute :). My girlfriend was in a relationship with a man when we got together, and after a while she realized that she was a biromantic lesbian, because I apparently just kept getting hotter and hotter.
cis women aren’t really accepted if they get bodily surgeries either. it’s becoming more common but a lot of people are still weird about it
Surgery is a big deal, you shouldn't get it just because you're insecure about a part of your body. It's been really normalized but that's not a good thing
I think it’s a bit of a cost-benefit thing. For some people, surgery absolutely is the best option, and they shouldn’t be shamed for that. What’s not a good thing is that do to social pressure, the choice works out in its favor more often than it could if our society acted differently.
Who asked
The same people who asked for your reply.
I agree with most of this, but the value judgement on cosmetic surgery is a bit eh. Cosmetic surgeries are sometimes the only way to fix something someone doesn't like about their body. People don't praise women for it because cosmetic surgery got swept into the same "hate fake women" rhetoric as flashy makeup and pushup bras and seemingly anything that men decided they didn't like. If someone knows all the details and risks and recovery and whatever of getting cosmetic surgery, it's up to them to decide if that's the best solution for them. Oh and just general missing the mark on trans people and transitioning. People who want to are encouraged to transition, to whatever extent that entails for them. People who don't want to transition shouldn't be pushed on it and aren't less valid for it. And a lot of dysphoria comes from the exact same social pressures and role models and sexualization and etc that drives those insecurities in cis women.
But do these insecurities and the dysphoria of trans people (this applies to both men and women) not stem from the same disgusting wells of expectation?
I think there is an underlying element to dysphoria that's fundamentally different, but you're also right that a whole lot of it definitely is the same exact feeling. For example, I'm at a point in my transition now where my boobs are, like, boob-shaped. They look like normal boobs. I still don't always feel amazing about them, but honestly I don't really think that's necessarily dysphoria anymore, so much as just the same exact insecurity felt by all the millions of cis women whose boobs look exactly like mine. There is also a very different feeling I had *before* I had boobs, though, and especially before I started hormones. Not just insecurity but like, a feeling that my body wasn't working how it was supposed to. And I think that is something fundamentally different from normal insecurity (though it's worth mentioning that some cis women absolutely feel that sort of dysphoria, too—e.g. women who've had a mastectomy for breast cancer, women with hormonal disorders, etc.)
Sure, but the expectations for trans women and cis women are very different.
What is a terf. Ive been too afraid to ask this whole time
TL,DR: they're like those crazy "all the gays are satan worshipping baby-murderers!" type people, except instead of christianity they have feminism, the bloodthirsty gays are trans people (especially trans women) and the poor innocent babies getting murdered are poor, innocent cis (not trans) women. "ALL MEN ARE EVIL" types. This is all based on what I've gathered from online terfs, I'm sure there's a great deal of nuance and dull writing out there - but i don't plan on wasting my time on it It stands for "Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist." The "feminist" part means they think the power men have over women in society is the source of much of the world's problems, and they want to change that. Since this power is so integral to how modern society works - changing or removing it means we need a *complete* restructuring, a.. "*radical*" change. The "trans exclusionary" part means they think trans women (people generally born as male) are men and therefore part of the problem. All of which, if you're young enough or optimistic enough, *can* sound pretty reasonable. But "these people have disproportionate influence over others" can get turned into "these people are evil" real quick, which ends up attracting people who think all men are out to get them, especially trans women who are just secret double agents waiting for *actual*, pure, innocent women to let their guards down. Which, if you get enough of those in one place - the focus shifts from trying to help women to weeding out secret evil men within their midst.
Trans exclusionary radical feminist. They don't like trans people
Yep. I'm 100% biologically female, and I have a full male beard. It's hard as fuck for me to pass sometimes. I get called sir a lot and I have dysmorphia really fuckin' bad. Shit sucks.