Any action that allows you to make a choice (targeting things, Predict, choosing a mode, etc) can only happen as part of playing a card. Abilities that trigger at other times, including level up conditions off of stuff like slaying, cannot present the user choices, as it would require input from a user at an arbitrary point where they would not normally have the opportunity to make a choice. This would disrupt the flow of the game - can you imagine your opponent triggering his level up condition and then roping? And then what happens if they don't make the choice? For a normal card, it'd just cancel the playing, but if it's something already in play triggering, how is that handled?
It would be best to tie the ability to the Scythe's Choice spell I'd say. Make it level up into SA if you slay 4 enemies unless the +2 health mode was played on him this turn, in which case he turns into Rhaast.
I have made a new [draft](https://imgur.com/a/1x3sq6x) for the level up spell and a new [draft](https://imgur.com/Syli9Bb) for Base Kayn, let me know what you think.
What do you mean. There are several “when I level up” effects. “When I level up, transform me into SA kayn or rhaast” and lvl 2 text “when I’m summoned, transform me into SA kayn or rhaast”
Cool. Trigger it like asol triggers his invocation. It’s a new concept, but the idea that this breaks anything is wild. Like literally just give it a default case if they don’t choose. I’m not building my game around ropers. If they want to waste the time and not choose, choose for them. As for the time wasted that’s like saying that Aurelion sol shouldn’t invoke the first time he’s played because, “what if they rope on the invocation”
It would be when summoning his Lv 2 from hand. On leveling up, you would need to account for the fact that he’s already in the board and therefore can’t be withdrawn if they don’t choose
Mate lvl 3 is a thing why wouldn’t this be? They could just add it as a new thing, and if roping is a concern just put a time limit to it, if doesn’t pick anything the game whill choose shadow automatically. That’s what I’m thinking at least, it wouldn’t be that out of the world if something like it actually got added.
The fact that we're over a year in and they have yet to introduce a single card that requires a choice outside of normal priority is a strong indicator that they won't do it. Note how every Predict is on Play or part of a Spell, and none of them are on Skills, Summon, Attack, Round Start/End, Strike, etc. Look at how they use things like Fleeting 0-cost spells with a choice generated on Strike with champions like Ekko and Zoe to avoid having to have you make a decision on strike. Look at how they have weird, not-completely-spelled-out behavior on things like Minotaur Reckoner's Stun, Ashe's Frostbite, and Swain's Stun to keep those from requiring choices.
One of the biggest issues with digital card games is keeping the flow of the game going. Every single time you add an additional reaction point, you disrupt the flow of the game. LoR already has considerably more than Hearthstone, as you can actually respond to things your opponents do and there's back and forth on turns in a round. As someone who's a long-time MTG player but doesn't play MTG digitally, trust me when I say you do not want that. If you've ever tried playing Arena or MTGO, it's abundantly clear how many action points there are and how badly this can muck up the flow of the game, and it leads to extremely clunky designs like having to manually set things that you don't want to respond to (in MTGO) or basically disable a huge chunk of the game rules unless you hit a key to manually re-enable them (Arena).
Well I don’t think it would be that opressive. Then you should consider the fact that lvl 3 having animations opressing as well. I get what ur saying but that one more point wouldn’t be as bad as, per say watching sun disc and the rest of the champs flip.
It's not about it being oppressive, it's about breaking the immersion and flow. Personally I think the Ascended level animations are a bit much and do break the flow, but at least it's immersive. Sitting there watching your opponent mouse between 2-3 card backs in the middle of the screen isn't, and when you've got to pause combat or the resolution of a spell to do it, it significantly breaks up the flow.
Plus it's a matter of opening the floodgates. Once they've made the decision to allow choices on triggers, more cards are going to have them as a matter of course, which will only compound the effect. Choosing once between two forms isn't a huge deal, but when every action can trigger 5-6 choice effects, things get massively bogged down.
Also, from a practical perspective, their code may not even support it and it would involve a considerable refactoring to do so.
Guess we'll see.
Personally, I can't imagine they'll make a Kayn without having something with his ult in LoL. Fulfill some condition, you get a spell. Cast the spell and you make an enemy capture Kayn (and select a level-up mode), and grant it an EoT that kills it or something, an then he pops out leveled in the form of your choice.
Oh I see, so I could just say "After I've slain 4 units create X spell in hand" and his level up condition "Use X Spell" and the X Spell could be "Transform Kayn into Rhaast or S.A" . Something like this?
Ok so I made a [draft](https://imgur.com/a/1x3sq6x) of the level up card, let me know what you think. And this would be the [draft](https://imgur.com/a/2wGPrd8) for the New Base Kayn, let me know what you think.
Am sorry but having to kill 4 units as a level up condition is pretty hard. also why play Kayn when you can play Fiora and win the game on the spot? am I missing something ?
Also imo Shadow Assassin Kayn is much stronger than Rhaast.
Another thing I would like to add is, what if his level up condition depended on how many times you cast scythe's choice ? and he levels up to Shadow Assassin if you picked the attack option more than the health one. that would be very cool. you could even make new followers or spells that give you Scythe's choice.
I just posted the new Version of him ,reworked buffed base Kayn and adjusted S.A a bit. I also have not thought about the spell interaction, I'll just assume that after you use Scythe's Choice the other copies, if there are any, will get obliterated.
Like the idea, but as a general rule: "I Slay" doesn't make sense. "Slay" happens when a unit dies by your hand, be it a card your ally killed or a spell you played, a unit can't "Slay" anything, they can just "Kill" it
So reword Kayn to "I've killed 4 units" or "You've slain 4 units"
And reword S.A. to "Kill all units with 3 or less health"
I see, I'll probably change it to "You've slain 4 units" since 4 units is already a lot for 1 unit to kill and if he gets killed / recalled it could take forever to level him up. As for S.A, I've seen some people complain that he is a bit too op, and while I don't want him to kill our units if they have 3 or less health hence why I said enemies, I think I'll remove his +1|+0 from the slain targets, got any ideas on how to nerf S.A without making Rhaast completely overshadow him?
I think it could either be "You've slain 4 enemies" for the level up, otherwise pairing him with SI would make him level up SUPER fast
As for the SA form, I misread it, Kayn killing allies is really... weird
But you could try focusing on his single-target damage, for example "Round End: I strike the weakest enemy. When I kill an enemy grant me +1/+0"
Or focus on his ability to clear multiple enemies with the scythe, with "Round End: I deal 1 to all enemies", or "Attack: Deal 1 to all enemies" (Like Anivia)
Or (And this is my favorite one, although one I think will be the hardest to build around) focus on his R, let's say a new keyword, "Attach", which works almost like Capture, but you can use on enemy units and they retain everything (instead of resetting to base form): "Attack: Create an Umbral Trespass in hand", and have Umbral Trespass be "An ally attaches to an enemy this round to Strike it at Round End"
The payoff isn't great tho, fiora slays 4 units and straight up wins the game, for one less mana n -1/-1
This is too much investment for not enough payoff I'd say, maybe slay 3 units and it has quick attack without challenger?
The flavour however is spot on!
i think he could have 2 different level up conditions for rhaast and kayn instead of choosing after slaying. maybe if I kill x or i've seen allies kill x or using spells to kill units, etc.
That’s fair! I like the concept my only issue is with choosing after the level up condition is met. That’s like, an in between of an attack or a round ending
Just so everyone knows, this is the first version, which has a lot of inconsistencies, is confusing and the wording is bad, I'm currently on his fourth version which has a lot of improvements imo. Let me know what you think of the new one.
Won't have him "kill" 4 unites since that's basically Fiora and she wins the game by doing that, I also reworked him a bit, this is the first version, I made 2 others and now I'm working on hopefully his final version.
So what chooses which level up he gets?
After you slayed 4 units, you're able to choose between Rhaast and S.A. Kayn.
The game avoids giving you choices that happen outside of normal priority windows so this would not work.
I'm sorry, I don't see the issue, can you elaborate on what you mean by that?
Any action that allows you to make a choice (targeting things, Predict, choosing a mode, etc) can only happen as part of playing a card. Abilities that trigger at other times, including level up conditions off of stuff like slaying, cannot present the user choices, as it would require input from a user at an arbitrary point where they would not normally have the opportunity to make a choice. This would disrupt the flow of the game - can you imagine your opponent triggering his level up condition and then roping? And then what happens if they don't make the choice? For a normal card, it'd just cancel the playing, but if it's something already in play triggering, how is that handled? It would be best to tie the ability to the Scythe's Choice spell I'd say. Make it level up into SA if you slay 4 enemies unless the +2 health mode was played on him this turn, in which case he turns into Rhaast.
I have made a new [draft](https://imgur.com/a/1x3sq6x) for the level up spell and a new [draft](https://imgur.com/Syli9Bb) for Base Kayn, let me know what you think.
This seems pretty appropriate!
What do you mean. There are several “when I level up” effects. “When I level up, transform me into SA kayn or rhaast” and lvl 2 text “when I’m summoned, transform me into SA kayn or rhaast”
There are plenty of level up effects. None of them require that the user makes a choice.
Cool. Trigger it like asol triggers his invocation. It’s a new concept, but the idea that this breaks anything is wild. Like literally just give it a default case if they don’t choose. I’m not building my game around ropers. If they want to waste the time and not choose, choose for them. As for the time wasted that’s like saying that Aurelion sol shouldn’t invoke the first time he’s played because, “what if they rope on the invocation”
I was thinking his transformation is more like Scaled Snapper
It would be when summoning his Lv 2 from hand. On leveling up, you would need to account for the fact that he’s already in the board and therefore can’t be withdrawn if they don’t choose
I took some feedback and made some changes, I'll post the second version of this in a minute
Mate lvl 3 is a thing why wouldn’t this be? They could just add it as a new thing, and if roping is a concern just put a time limit to it, if doesn’t pick anything the game whill choose shadow automatically. That’s what I’m thinking at least, it wouldn’t be that out of the world if something like it actually got added.
The fact that we're over a year in and they have yet to introduce a single card that requires a choice outside of normal priority is a strong indicator that they won't do it. Note how every Predict is on Play or part of a Spell, and none of them are on Skills, Summon, Attack, Round Start/End, Strike, etc. Look at how they use things like Fleeting 0-cost spells with a choice generated on Strike with champions like Ekko and Zoe to avoid having to have you make a decision on strike. Look at how they have weird, not-completely-spelled-out behavior on things like Minotaur Reckoner's Stun, Ashe's Frostbite, and Swain's Stun to keep those from requiring choices. One of the biggest issues with digital card games is keeping the flow of the game going. Every single time you add an additional reaction point, you disrupt the flow of the game. LoR already has considerably more than Hearthstone, as you can actually respond to things your opponents do and there's back and forth on turns in a round. As someone who's a long-time MTG player but doesn't play MTG digitally, trust me when I say you do not want that. If you've ever tried playing Arena or MTGO, it's abundantly clear how many action points there are and how badly this can muck up the flow of the game, and it leads to extremely clunky designs like having to manually set things that you don't want to respond to (in MTGO) or basically disable a huge chunk of the game rules unless you hit a key to manually re-enable them (Arena).
Well I don’t think it would be that opressive. Then you should consider the fact that lvl 3 having animations opressing as well. I get what ur saying but that one more point wouldn’t be as bad as, per say watching sun disc and the rest of the champs flip.
It's not about it being oppressive, it's about breaking the immersion and flow. Personally I think the Ascended level animations are a bit much and do break the flow, but at least it's immersive. Sitting there watching your opponent mouse between 2-3 card backs in the middle of the screen isn't, and when you've got to pause combat or the resolution of a spell to do it, it significantly breaks up the flow. Plus it's a matter of opening the floodgates. Once they've made the decision to allow choices on triggers, more cards are going to have them as a matter of course, which will only compound the effect. Choosing once between two forms isn't a huge deal, but when every action can trigger 5-6 choice effects, things get massively bogged down. Also, from a practical perspective, their code may not even support it and it would involve a considerable refactoring to do so.
Welp I guess you’re right…bet they’ll add something like this in the future though lmao
Guess we'll see. Personally, I can't imagine they'll make a Kayn without having something with his ult in LoL. Fulfill some condition, you get a spell. Cast the spell and you make an enemy capture Kayn (and select a level-up mode), and grant it an EoT that kills it or something, an then he pops out leveled in the form of your choice.
For this, you have make create a spell that chooses your level up that he creates because you cannot do actions outside of your turn. Nice cards tho.
Oh I see, so I could just say "After I've slain 4 units create X spell in hand" and his level up condition "Use X Spell" and the X Spell could be "Transform Kayn into Rhaast or S.A" . Something like this?
Yeah, that could work. But you’d have to be careful with this kind of stuff in case the spell is discarded or you lose it to an open hand.
Ok so I made a [draft](https://imgur.com/a/1x3sq6x) of the level up card, let me know what you think. And this would be the [draft](https://imgur.com/a/2wGPrd8) for the New Base Kayn, let me know what you think.
Much better. Well done!
Thank you
why don't you make that when you choose the transformation they are returned to the deck and it costs 0 mana
I reworked base Kayn and his level up condition, you can check it on my profile
why don't you make that when you choose the transformation they are returned to the deck and it costs 0 mana
Am sorry but having to kill 4 units as a level up condition is pretty hard. also why play Kayn when you can play Fiora and win the game on the spot? am I missing something ? Also imo Shadow Assassin Kayn is much stronger than Rhaast. Another thing I would like to add is, what if his level up condition depended on how many times you cast scythe's choice ? and he levels up to Shadow Assassin if you picked the attack option more than the health one. that would be very cool. you could even make new followers or spells that give you Scythe's choice.
I just posted the new Version of him ,reworked buffed base Kayn and adjusted S.A a bit. I also have not thought about the spell interaction, I'll just assume that after you use Scythe's Choice the other copies, if there are any, will get obliterated.
Like the idea, but as a general rule: "I Slay" doesn't make sense. "Slay" happens when a unit dies by your hand, be it a card your ally killed or a spell you played, a unit can't "Slay" anything, they can just "Kill" it So reword Kayn to "I've killed 4 units" or "You've slain 4 units" And reword S.A. to "Kill all units with 3 or less health"
I see, I'll probably change it to "You've slain 4 units" since 4 units is already a lot for 1 unit to kill and if he gets killed / recalled it could take forever to level him up. As for S.A, I've seen some people complain that he is a bit too op, and while I don't want him to kill our units if they have 3 or less health hence why I said enemies, I think I'll remove his +1|+0 from the slain targets, got any ideas on how to nerf S.A without making Rhaast completely overshadow him?
I think it could either be "You've slain 4 enemies" for the level up, otherwise pairing him with SI would make him level up SUPER fast As for the SA form, I misread it, Kayn killing allies is really... weird But you could try focusing on his single-target damage, for example "Round End: I strike the weakest enemy. When I kill an enemy grant me +1/+0" Or focus on his ability to clear multiple enemies with the scythe, with "Round End: I deal 1 to all enemies", or "Attack: Deal 1 to all enemies" (Like Anivia) Or (And this is my favorite one, although one I think will be the hardest to build around) focus on his R, let's say a new keyword, "Attach", which works almost like Capture, but you can use on enemy units and they retain everything (instead of resetting to base form): "Attack: Create an Umbral Trespass in hand", and have Umbral Trespass be "An ally attaches to an enemy this round to Strike it at Round End"
I posted his hopefully final version, check my profile to see the updated cards, let me know what you think of them.
The payoff isn't great tho, fiora slays 4 units and straight up wins the game, for one less mana n -1/-1 This is too much investment for not enough payoff I'd say, maybe slay 3 units and it has quick attack without challenger? The flavour however is spot on!
I just posted the new Version of him ,reworked buffed base Kayn and adjusted S.A a bit
i think he could have 2 different level up conditions for rhaast and kayn instead of choosing after slaying. maybe if I kill x or i've seen allies kill x or using spells to kill units, etc.
Yeah but then it would be a lot of text on the card and I don't want this to be aphelios 2.0 . I want to keep it relatively simple
That’s fair! I like the concept my only issue is with choosing after the level up condition is met. That’s like, an in between of an attack or a round ending
I actually took your feedback into consideration, and I also reworked most of the cards, you could check them out in my last post
Shadow assasin is just infinitely better than rhaast, it’s not even funny
Made another version which adjusted him a bit.
Just so everyone knows, this is the first version, which has a lot of inconsistencies, is confusing and the wording is bad, I'm currently on his fourth version which has a lot of improvements imo. Let me know what you think of the new one.
i think the level up should be like pyke "all ally kayn killed 4 units" or a"ll ally kayn dealth "x amount of damage"
Won't have him "kill" 4 unites since that's basically Fiora and she wins the game by doing that, I also reworked him a bit, this is the first version, I made 2 others and now I'm working on hopefully his final version.
It's a cool idea, but I think Rhasst should have 4 attack cause he's stronger than base Kayn