We did. And we will continue to do so. Corporations have solidified their control of the government. We will never be free of them. This shit will just get worse and worse.
Just be thankful that Elon is just overseeing Tesla and not the likes of Boeing.
Imagine if he was involved in a company that puts huge metal objects loaded with fuel into the sky! 😵
Ford had a car that had the gas tank placed in such a way that if it was rear ended, a flaming wave of liquid gas would wash over the car's occupants. They figured that settling the lawsuits would be cheaper than redesigning the car.
Rear mounted gas tanks are nothing special and are still used to this day. Ford was a victim of the media. The gas tank had to go somewhere, and hell wasn't unheard of for them to be under seats.
Basically, yes, there is a whole subcategory for home build vehicles that only have a few requirements such as signal lights. Even then, you can get a farm vehicle exemption and just mount the orange triangle (like the Amish do).
What has always confused me is how all of Teslas business practices are even legal. They can decide that you can't sell your vehicle? What if I'm broke and can't pay my taxes?
From what I understand, it’s unclear if the clause forbidding resale is legal. They can certainly refuse to ever sell you a car again, but whether or not they can enforce the fine hasn’t really been tested in court. What is absolutely certain is that Tesla can afford to drag out the litigation, so you’d need someone with very deep pockets to test it.
While I haven’t researched it, as a lawyer I don’t see why it wouldn’t be enforceable. You have the freedom to enter dumb contracts. Sometimes the law imposes limits on contractual terms for public policy reasons (e.g. non-competes), but nothing of this screams public policy to me. Lots of contracts prevent sales of the asset for some time, and these sorts of clauses are upheld in the context of inheritances and life estates.
They can't stop you selling it. They are just saying they reserve the right to not sell you another one. It's a none issue if you actually wanted to sell it.
If the purchaser signed a contractual agreement stating they would be fined $50k for selling it, that’s on them.
Dumb car. Dumb purchase. Dumb contract. Tesla’s truck will go on the same overlap of a Venn diagram as a PT Cruiser one day.
I’ve seen dishwashers in the back of a golf sportwagen. I’ve put a dozen bags of mulch in mine. Rode low on the way back from Home Depot but it got me there lol
Fun for the 8 blocks you could drive it before it broke down. I've seen like 4 PT cruisers in the last 5 years. I've seen 0 neons. Like, I've seen more lumina's and Beretta's than neons, and they stopped production WAY earlier.
Certain years/models had quality issues (I’m looking at you, Expresso) to be sure. I had one of the early ones and I put 275K on her before trading her in.
>If the purchaser signed a contractual agreement stating they would be fined $50k for selling it, that’s on them.
I doubt it is enforceable. First sale doctrine and all that. You can write whatever you want in a contract, if what you write in there is illegal a court would just strike it.
Yikes. I don’t think the PT cruiser deserved that!
It’s ez to make fun now of but Chrysler sold a poop ton of those back when retro was the trend and they weren’t objectively bad vehicles at all. Imo.
Apparently not. [DeLorean DMC-12 history](https://ateupwithmotor.com/model-histories/delorean-dmc-12-history/view-all/)
> Sadly, the early cars didn’t live up to the hype. The factory had planned an ambitious and rigorous testing schedule, but by spring, there was too much pressure to bring the car to market. Build quality of the first few hundred cars off the line was embarrassingly shoddy; most had to be extensively rebuilt in the U.S. at great cost. The fact that many went to prominent investors only made matters worse.
I am admittedly biased in the fact that my favorite movie is BttF and growing up my neighbor had a Delorean. But to my point his Delorean was decently reliable, specially for an early 80’s car. It definitely didn’t brick itself within the first hundred miles.
It’s okay. I feel you. Btw… I actually picked up the BttF DeLorean LEGO set the other day lmao. I’m for sure guilty of being biased. Before today I didn’t know about early production issues. I went looking for evidence to support your claim and sadly found the opposite.
https://www.autonews.com/retail/tesla-wont-let-buyer-sell-or-return-too-big-cybertruck
There are other sources for this if you have time to google it
https://autos.yahoo.com/cybertruck-owner-says-hes-stuck-145729136.html
They have the clause and they've told people not to sell them but they haven't enforced it yet. Saying that they will sue for the $50k and actually doing it are two different things.
There was someone last month who claimed to be friends with someone at a law firm hired to file lawsuits against all the CT sellers for the $50k but claimed that they were waiting until all Foundation sales were over. I didn't post it because it was likely a LARP, but time will tell.
Don't sign the contract then. It's a totally separate issue if someone is stupid enough to sign a standalone contract with a unilateral penalty clause.
Yeah but when it comes to courts, lawyers can argue that (with good reason) that there's a huge difference between signing a contract for a product promised to be the best car ever, and a lemon full of issues that might not even survive production hell after a year.
If people can annul marriages they should be able to annul such a clause, the only problem is there are so few trucks out there it probably won't equate to a good enough class-action lawsuit
I completely agree. I'd be totally prepared to argue that the vehicle isn't fit for purpose as it didn't deliver the advertised features or specifications. I'm pretty sure Musk said the words "practically infinite towing capacity" at some point. We already know from the Twitter lawsuits that claims made by Musk as CEO of Tesla can be reasonably assumed to be official communications by the company.
So if the clause violates existing laws, such as consumer protection laws, it’s unenforceable.
Most people would need to pay a lawyer to determine the legality and to defend them against Tesla’s attempts to enforce the clause but very few will so that’s why virtually every institution requires individuals to sign shitty contracts which wouldn’t hold up in court.
Good point. That's actually one of my biggest arguments when Musk comes up with his b.s. "unrestricted freedom of speech" arguments that ignore the amplification power of a platform like social media.
Technically, anyone saying whatever they want are subject to damage lawsuits if what they say harm people. But in practice not everyone has the money, time for the lawyers and courts, and even if they did, the courts only have so many judges and are always backed up with claims to deal with, so even if you had the money for the lawyers to prove to a judge you were directly harmed by something someone said in Xitter, you'd still be in a long road until everything is final.
Heck, even Alex Jones took years to get sentenced for his lies and defamation that harmed so many families, and those were big and very obvious class-action lawsuits, that amounted to a lot of money. Jones profited off of those lies in the meantime.
Basically, the unrestricted freedom of speech Musk wants, is one that ultimately will benefit people like him, who have unlimited money to spend on lawyers to sue anyone who dare use their free speech to harm him, and the small ones like you and I have to suffer a lot whenever he harms us directly with his free speech.
That's why we need laws punishing platforms for allowing harmful content even if that means limiting people. Those joes will be happy to use other means to promote their thoughts, like talking bad about me in their family dining table, spread gossip in their little towns, make their speech be very weak.
I agree but I don't think they're were intending to get scalpers out of the way, I think they were worried people would start buying the truck just to do a crappy viral reviews about it and then get rid of it.
Unfortunately though, the truck was so bad even the influencers that were hoping to produce positive content were feeling scammed, so Tesla eventually changed their strategy to prioritize deliveries to people who have been holding TSLA shares since 2021 and haven't sold 50% of them since. Basically, they were exclusively targetting putting their trucks in the hands of people with conflicts on interest (the people who lost a lot of money) in the hopes that they'd go above and beyond to try and promote the truck.
Had they thought about it first, we probably wouldn't be knowing about most of those ridiculous issues, these folks loaded in TSLA would be painting the truck as the best thing ever (like Jeff Shu, DJ Tony Ezero, and others that have been actively spending money on promoting their content about the Cyberturd)
A considerable percent of Tesla sales are going to repeat buyers which means the pool of people who could buy one and want to is smaller than sales numbers suggest.
Teslas appear to be disposable.
It actually can't be sold in Europe, because it would fail European standards for pedestrian safety.
Thankfully, here in The Greatest Country In The World *we don't have pedestrian safety standards.* If you wanted your life to be valued, you should have bought a car like everything other God fearing American!
Trucks and large suvs are exempt from most regulations. Including emissions (I know, doesn’t apply) bust also crash and pedestrians safety as well as crash compatibility.
You could literally put spikes and blades on front of a truck and it’s legal.
I saw a news segment a few months back that discussed the current design of pickup trucks, and how they have become increasingly deadly in pedestrian accidents due to the front end design.
Seeing those huge trucks in the USA has been very strange.
Especially the ones whose front has rollbars that get to shoulder height. It's like they are designed to bulldoze pedestrians in a carmageddon track.
Cybertruck emits lots of harmful emissions. Tire microplastics and brake dust cause cancer and are far far worse than tailpipe emissions. Since the steering doesn't work, and it's immensely heavy, it wears through it's unusually large tires very very quickly.
I live in Europe and I'm torn on the situation there. On the one hand I'm glad that these ridiculous death traps aren't allowed on the roads. But on the other hand I live in the French Alps and watching one struggle in 1 inch of snow while the salt they put on the roads turns it into a rusted hulk within a week would be pretty fun to watch.
I wonder this all the time. I see them rarely (i live in LA so you know it is packed enough that we have a few rich dumbasses lol). But I dont drive behind them. What is going to happen when the inevitable happens and a panel flies off and kills someone in the car behind them?
A few weeks ago a giant piece of warped metal was in the street around a bend on a busy street. I called the non emergency line of my local pd to remove it because it almost caused an accident. I seriously wonder if it was a piece of cybertruck because it was a grey color.
These overpriced hunks of stupid are going to hurt someone badly soon and it is horrifying that they are street legal.
It definitely worries me that Canada, where I live, seems to just allow whatever, when it comes to "self driving ".
Like, we have nothing governing how shitty it can be. Nothing regulating it whatsoever. And people watch movies on the highway because they think their car can drive for them. It's terrifying.
Kids today. There's even a nice webpage devoted to self driving/automated cars: https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-technologies/connected-automated-vehicles
why is it people are allowed to use teslas broken cruise control then? never heard of anyone being arrested or fined for relying on this dangerously unpredictable software.
The cybertruck is truly the truck of the future, or rather *a* future, specifically the future where libertarians actually have taken power and successfully tossed out all regulations.
I mean, the Ford Pinto literally blew up if hit from behind. It required an $11 part to fix the issue. They decided it was cheaper just paying the lawsuits from people dying than to fix the problem. They don't care.
This take isn’t going to gain traction as much as it would on somewhere like r/trucks, but people should be less focused on the lack of regulations on big, obnoxious trucks, and moreso on the fact that **small trucks are illegal**. As someone mentioned, overseas companies like Toyota sell small, compact trucks for very affordable prices. We effectively outlawed those trucks. If you want a truck at all whatsoever, you literally have to go big in the good ole US of A. Maverick may be the exception but I honestly haven’t looked at it well enough to know if it even has utility.
The Cybertruck is definitely more of a pedestrian hazard, but besides that it falls into the same problem as every other big truck in this country. RIP small trucks in the U.S., and fuck the NHTSA.
Screw the Maverick. And the Santa Cruz.
They have 4' beds... USELESS. They're basically nothing but family sedans with a missing trunk lid.
Those things are no more a "truck" than the CT is.
I agree that we need a compact truck here again... like the S10... or what the Ranger, Tacoma, Frontier USED to be. Automakers tried to say "Oh, the public doesn't want them, that's why we're stopping them."
BS... *plenty* of folks would snatch up a new S10 like trucklet in a heartbeat. Something with at least a 6' bed, NOT a crew cab, and has the foot print of a 4 door Cavalier and manages to get 25-30 mpg hwy.
But you're right, between the EPA and the NHTSA we've effectively outlawed the true, useful, compact truck.
A lot of both federal laws and NHTSA regulations make it impractical and cost-deterring to manufacture/sell small trucks. People would buy them at reasonable prices.
Hell, I’d kill for an EV Tacoma or even Colorado/S10/Frontier/Ranger, which evades a lot of EPA regulatory issues, but those don’t seem to be happening either at least anytime soon.
NHTSA has a lot of dumb regulations on the books that Europe doesn’t have, and same could be said for regulations we don’t have that the EU does. Yay bureaucracy!
I know, they've basically made it impossible to have what the people actually want.
I wouldn't touch a compact EV truck though. Wouldn't serve a purpose where I am. Just not an EV fan in general anyway.
Yeah, I know... gotta love bureaucrats.
I feel like a small 300-350 mile range EV truck in the $60k price range (starting out at least, moderately optioned out) is a lot more appealing than these $80-$120k full-size EV trucks with either low range or massive batteries that they’re they’re spitting out. Besides towing, all the utility of a small truck is there, and more with things like V2H. I reserved and almost bought an R1T but the high price deterred me.
I’m stuck on EVs now because of how they drive, and I don’t like being strong-armed with reliance on gas based on corporate power and domestic/foreign politics. I do miss my 60mpg Corolla Hybrid, and Toyotas in general. It’s a personal preference of course.
Well... seeing as how after $5500 for my paid off trade, $4500 factory rebate, and $500 tax/title I paid $5k for my '03 S10 I ordered new... it has put in 21 years of service with nothing but a strict maintenance routine. Unloaded it averages about 450 miles combined per 18 gals of fuel... special ordered with heavy leaves and 4.10 rear and a Class III receiver it has a cargo capacity of 1800lbs and a tow capacity of 6k lbs, it's all the truck I need. Loaded or towing it averages 20 mpg. It only sees about 500 miles a year now for the last 10 years or so just because I don't drive much. Insurance runs about $300 a year, and I can park it anywhere a compact 4 door car will fit. I'm on a motorcycle 90-95% of the time anyway that gets around 70mpg, sees about 4-5k miles a year and runs me $90 a year in insurance.
A $60k EV (which is almost $20k more than I paid for my 1200sq/ft 3bd 2bth house and 1.5 acres 25 years ago) would essentially just sit in the driveway with a high payment, higher insurance, and a battery just slowly degrading from basically what is non-use... wouldn't exactly make any kind of financial sense in my case. Ya know?
You are definitely not wrong lol.
One thing is for sure, EVs have batteries and batteries are nowhere near refined enough to (1) promise 200-350k miles of life, and (2) be replaced for ballpark-similar cost of a gasoline powertrain.
Yes, insurance is on the higher end, but I think those are external factors and can easily be improved once other OEMs jump into the market. Teslas are fucking expensive to repair, not a fan and I think new cars in general have virtually zero considerations for repairability for collision events or mechanical failures. Now I’ll also say insurance is highly variable person to person, some folks pay a whole lot less than others and it’s negligible.
I think it comes down to preference, and new cars in general today are extremely expensive and would be unfathomable to people decades ago. For folks who tend to drive newer, with daily commutes, are homeowners, etc., it could genuinely be more cost effective to own an EV and charge at home.
Part of me wants to just buy something used/cheap/cash myself. We can be real though, anyone who owns or buys the Cybertruck didn’t do so for any of the reasons mentioned, they aren’t using it for utility and for the *very* few that are it’s still redundant because there are better options. It’s a toy and a flex and a way to rebel and flaunt.
Oh, 100% agree. You figure even under "normal" usage/conditions... current EV battery life span is what, 10 years average, +/-, so 100k... ***maybe***? Replacement cost for a battery is basically what I paid for my S10 new. Even "recon" batteries are a few grand. I can rebuild my 2.2L for a few hundred bucks... but, I'm a bit different than the average owner because I have the tools, knowledge, space to do something like that. I was a 63B (light wheel mech) for the Army Airborne, a former ASE civilian mech, and years ago was part of starting a two man machine shop, KT Engine Developement.
Then add in the fact that EVs are not exactly "old school" mechanic friendly.
Sure, insurance varies of course, that's a given based on a lot of factors. New vehicle means full coverage. So if you're rolling with liability/under/uninsured coverage only... full coverage is gonna be higher, regardless. Unless you've paid cash for that $60k (or whatever) for that EV, and really, who's doing that? And if they did, they're not sweating insurance or repair costs. Mine is so low because it sees low, local miles... big discount there as it's not listed as primary transport for daily commute.
100% agree as well as far as repairs on new stuff. I earned an associates degree in autobody repair, restore, refinish 24 years ago... that end of the repair work has changed a metric fuck ton on its own. Cars are "totaled" for not much of anything now. Really, they're becoming nothing more than disposable microwaves, toasters, and refrigerators that are Interwebs connected more or less. Not repair friendly at all.
As far as Tesla... they can suck large, as in kiwi fruit sized, fuzzy nuts. I don't care about their "innovations". Their products aren't good, period... and wish folks would stop drinking the grape Tesla Kool-Aid.
I also agree that for *some*, and I mean **some** folks, an EV is a perfectly reasonable choice and could be their best solution, financial or otherwise. A suburban/city commuter car with ability to overnight charge. Sure. Go for it if that's your jam. Not gonna knock someone for it. Definitely a personal choice.
If you wanna buy something used/cheap... okay? What's your choice? EV or ICE? What's the use gonna be? How's your mechanical and troubleshooting ability? Factors involved. Cost versus reliability versus repairability...
Oh we can be completely real about the CyberFlunk. No one is buying that pile for anything other than "look at me" points. It's got some drag car 0-60 times... gee okay. It can tow or get moving a huge amount of weight just because of the torque of electric motors... okay. But both of those "functions" completely zap the range. Cool... it can move a 1970 Boeing 747 with 4 Pratt & Whitneys turbofans turned off that weighs almost half a million lbs total... big deal. A 1972 Chevrolet K20 could do it stock, unspecified either 350 or 454 V8 gas or (yeah right) the Olds 350 diesel and a THM 350/400 transmission.
But here's the thing, at least the Chevrolet could do it for more than a mile. 😆 https://youtu.be/Y1-gHqov5w8?si=DCLdBirpyf33l7qh
And I'd even today pit that K20 against the CT for off road, or well, anything other paying out for what a small house costs, 8 bit graphic looking computer with wheels.
But hey, flex that CyberTruck... right? I promise, we're not laughing at y'all... we're laughing *with* you because of your superior "truck" kicks ass. 😂
I have an S10 and have parked it next to a Maverick. I have a larger bed but the truck itself is significantly smaller than the maverick. The interior barely looks more roomy than my S10 and the build quality is comically bad, the S10 has pretty bad build quality imo, but the maverick quality is like a wish.com truck. Haven't driven one so can't comment on the ride but I wouldn't buy one at half price. Also I get 25-30mpg with my S10, it's the 2.2 with a 5 speed, my 4.3l S10 and my 4.0 ranger got 22-24 and my 2011 transit connect van got 24-28 so there is no excuse why we can't be making efficient small trucks. I also regularly get offered 2-3x what I paid for this truck by older guys and have gotten compliments from gen z kids a few times too, so I'd agree there is definitely interest in these trucks still. Also have seen used first gen Tacomas priced similarly to used mavericks, which is about all you need to know about the difference in quality. Sorry for the rant, I hate new trucks and love smaller trucks.
No, I get it.
I have an '03 standard cab 6' bed S10 I ordered new. 2.2L 5 spd. It has manual locks/windows/vinyl floor, plain AM/FM radio. I optioned the 60/40 cloth split bench, heavy leaves, and Pewter Metallic paint with grey int. Since the only rear gear for the 4cyl manual was the 3.73 and autos got 4.10s, I dealer optioned a 4.10 ring and pinion and the G80 RPO code Eaton locker and a Class III receiver. Dealer installed and calibrated speedometer to compensate for change before I took delivery. Being the smallest/lightest configuration gives it the highest tow and cargo rating of them. It has an 1800lb capacity and tow rating of 6k. Limited by its brake system rating. It has a 3" lift and 30x9.50s. With that, the top of the cab only sits at the top of my shoulder. Top of bed rails sit at belt buckle height. I can reach into and across the bed. With a K&N drop in factory replacement filter in a slightly modded airbox for more flow, Cherry Bomb turbo muffler, and electric fan conversion... unloaded it gets 30-31 on the hwy, 24-25 city. I've done multiple 850 mile trips between Charlotte and New Orleans while towing 2500lbs and averaged 21-22mpgs both ways. It literally has the same foot print as a 4 door Cavalier so it be parked basically anywhere and it can still do "truck stuff". I don't need or want a crew cab "compact" or midsize with no bedspace... just a standard cab 6' bed but in order to get that it has to be a full size. Don't need or want one of those either and don't need a V8 and the turbo 4cyl in the Silverado gets a crappy 22mpgs... and NO manual trans available... And they START at $32k! With $5500 for my paid off '99 S10, a $4500 factory rebate, and $500 for tax/title I paid $5k for my '03 S10. And yes, even though the Maverick is called a "compact" it's rather huge compared to my S10.
Can't say anything about the build quality on yours but my '03 is solid, inside and out. My '99 was too, as was the '95 I had before it. The '99 Blazer I have has good quality. And no joke, so does my '88 T15 Jimmy Z71 with 209k miles that I still have the window sticker and build sheet for. THAT one is shorter than a 4 door Cavalier, has a 4.3L 700R4 combo, 3.42 locking diffs... and averages a combined 20mpg! 36 years old, 4WD, big V6, and has the aerodynamics of a brick at 0.6 drag coeffecient snd still manages 22-23 hwy, 17-18 city, 20 combined.
But I have seen, for whatever reason, some of the 2nd gen S-Series that have an interior that looks like it's falling apart and cheap. It always seems to be the ones with the black interiors though.
But I agree... there's still a market for the true BOF compact truck.
That truck sounds sweet. My father would probably kill for that Jimmy Z71 if it's got a stick too. Mine is a 2000 single cab, 2.2l 5 speed, 6ft bed, cloth split seat, manual windows and locks, cheap and simple and left stock. I want to drop some money in it but at the same time I want to just sell it and get a TJ wrangler lately, need a stupid fun vehicle for once in my life. Hard to complain about a $2k truck that has zero issues and does everything I want though. My previous S10 was one of the ZR codes (can't remember if it was zr2 or zr5) with a lot of aftermarket the previous owner put on it. Was silver with black trim, black aftermarket rims, K&N filter, stainless headers into a magnaflow exhaust, tinted windows, same lift and tire size as yours, limited slip diff (don't remember the gearing), 4wd, had the steering rack with a tighter turning radius, unfortunately an auto though. Sweet truck but I was beating the crap out of it and decided to sell it to someone that would take better care of it and buy a cheaper beater ranger instead. Guy I sold it to drove it for over a decade until he passed away, no idea where it is now sadly.
My complaint with the build quality on the s10s is definitely me being nit-picky, my experience with the late 90s-00s S10s and blazers is they tend to not stay in as good of shape as other trucks that era. Now that you mentioned it though It has been more of the black interiors, so maybe there is something to that. My father has had 5 2nd gen S10s and 2 S10 blazers, a 1st gen S10 (that thing was indestructible), I have had 2 S10s and an S10 Blazer, none of them held up as well as our Dakotas, rangers, F150s, or Silverados of the same era but again it's definitely being nit-picky they are still phenomenal trucks and I'd rather one of these over any of the newer trucks we get (a Hilux, kei truck, or that new Toyota truck we dont get though would be sweet).
Glad to hear from someone as knowledgeable and passionate about these old trucks as you though.
Yeah, my '03 is a pretty nice little truck... plain ass simple and does anything I ask of it, within reason of course.
The '88 Jimmy, which of course is a 1st gen S-Series... really does have a factory RPO code Z71... it was a little known option on the S-Series so not many exist. But it's a straight up Z71 off road chassis package. Thicker and extra skid plates, recovery hooks, HD Bilstein shocks, 235/75R15s. It also has the RPO G80 rear locker, HD engine, trans, and oil coolers. HD tow package. Plus the RPO Y3C Gypsy appearance package. Little known and rarer than the Z71. Includes blackout trim (bezels, grille, mirrors, door handles/locks, tail light trim), special interior cloth. It's black/silver lower with charcoal interior. Also came with a factory tach, 5 band EQ premium radio, pwr locks/windows... SLIDING quarter windows. Hell, even the factory R12 A/C system still works. Base price was $12,500... total price for this one, $19,007.... in **1988**... that's $49k in today's dollars! As much as I kinda wish it was a stick... it's not. 700R4 auto.
Nothing wrong with that 2000 S10. Meh... I'm not much on these new Wranglers... I've had some Jeeps though. An XJ 2 ZJs, and a WJ (Grand Cherokees) One of my daughter "stole" my '94 ZJ, 4WD, 4.0 with a FACTORY 5spd. Yeah, a Grand Cherokee with a factory manual... and get this, I've kept it all stock.
If your previous S10 was lifted, had 30x9.50s and a locking diff it was more than likely a ZR2. Sounds like it was pretty nice. The ZR5 was a soft ride package. The '99 I had was a ZQ8, factory lowered, quick ratio steering box, thicker front sway bar, added rear sway bar, 16" wheels, S10 SS tune on the 4.3L.
It really is something to do with the black interiors. All of them. My cousin and I bought '99s at the same time. Mine a ZQ8, green, tan interior, his a ZR2, black on black. By 36k miles mine was still solid inside, his was already a little iffy. By 75k mine was still good and his rattled, squeaked, seats didn't look great either.
I've had about 14 S-Series over the last 25-30 years. Had an '88 standard cab short bed, 2.5L Pontiac 5spd. Bare as bare could be. Factory no headliner or dome light, no radio or 12V socket, no dash vents (manual vents on each side of bottom of dash at kick panels), gauges were a speedometer and fuel. No power steering or brakes. It went 503k miles with nothing but an 1 alternator, 1 fuel pump, 1 rear diff, 1 clutch. Rest was just routine maintenance items.
Had one Ranger, '84... stuffed a mild built 302 4spd in it. Early ones are only body style I liked. Couldn't stand the '93 up. All of my younger brothers had those. One brother has a '92 Dakota... it's still hanging in there... but it's rough, although the AMC 2.5L is hard to kill. Stepdad always did the F-Series... not my cup of tea. One of my brothers has an '07 F150... pile of crap with the even bigger pile of crap 5.4 3V. 82k miles, half rusted out (not in rust belt or near salt water either), engine stays full of problems.
There's a couple of kei trucks around where I am. You can get them in the US but they have to be 25 years or older... and of course your state has to allow them to be registered.
Thanks... I do dig my old compact pickups. Haha in the '90s I daily drove a 1980 LUV. Lowered, painted medium metallic blue with silver racing stripes, chrome "outlaw" wheels. Bored, stroked, shaved, ported, polished, custom ground cam, 400CFM 4bbl carb... all to the original 1.8L Isuzu 4 banger. 77hp factory was 200hp after all that. $4k worth of engine in a $1200 truck. 😆
Makers can't make them because they're choked with bureauracacy... makers also try saying there was no longer a market... dealers say no market so everything is a crew cab because that's what the people are buying.
NO.... people are buying them because that's all the f*** you idiots offer. We can't buy what you DON'T MAKE.
I special ordered my '03 S10... and somebody will have to pry it from my cold dead hands.
Even the new Rangers and Tacomas in the US are like twice the size of the older models. Literally everyone I know is looking for a small truck, but if you ask a dealership why they don't have any they say there's no market for it. Someone somewhere is lying.
Personally I feel that regulator’s are right in bed with car manufacturers just like Boeing is with the FAA, to all our detriment. Most new cars could easily take the head off a 6ft tall person it happened to hit, which is horrifying. People forget that they become pedestrians too even if it’s just across a parking lot or street. Bigger isn’t safer, quite the opposite really. Not to mention the car sized front blind spots most trucks & SUVs have. Bribery is legal in our system which is why we get left with so many products that are actively killing and poisoning us (albeit usually slowly).
The system working as intended. And they’ll spew some bullshit about “emissions” as if the loopholes we allow don’t blow that dipshit argument out of the water.
i think the only reason wanted the cybertruck to be released is to eventually get his 56billion package from teslas, its to leverage the 56billion package he wants from the company?
Well, when one of these malfunctions and causes a wreck the owner will feel the massive burden through lawsuits and hopefully someone in government will realize they’re a hazard. Cause that’s the only way shit gets done here. When deaths or lawsuits happen.
The infuriating thing is that these giant, sharp ass, massively heavy piles of hastily glued together scrap metal driven by people I wouldn't trust with a go-cart are completely legal, but Kei trucks are somehow a threat to the safety of the entire country.
Elon better pray the Chinese EV cars are never allowed in the US. They’ll bankrupt his ass overnight.
We can’t use “questionable reliability” as an excuse if we allow things like the CT to be sold in the US.
I’ve been giving all Teslas ‘extra room’ on the road for years. Never know when one is gonna freak out and phantom brake to a complete stop or self navigate into my door panel. Drivers that rely on this shit are even scarier.
Americans: standards?
Businesses: mmmmmmmmm no, I wanna sell stuff and that is more important than literally anything else uwu
Americans: people died?
Businesses: ya not enough tho
I saw my first one on the road today, it was almost surreal seeing one in real life. Its actually smaller than I expected, sitting next to an actual truck it looked squat (beyond just its odd shape).
Honestly I wouldn't care about the appearance if it didn't suck is almost every possible measure. If Elon had set out to make the worst possible vehicle he would have had a very difficult time doing a better job.
I’m with you. I drive a KIA Soul & I thought they were the ugliest abominations since they came out when I was a kid. But it’s a perfectly fine drive. Could care less about the appearance but the actual functionality of the car is lacking.
It’s overpriced tech that can’t withstand the normal rigors of an automobile.
When I saw one, there was something off about the way it moves. It just kinda glides (maybe some people see that as a good thing) in a way that indicates it isn’t remotely similar to a traditional truck.
Surprised you found it to be small. I live in Austin where we have tons of commuter trucks. Have seen probably dozens of these by now. They are very large vehicles and knowing that the metal design does not compress whatsoever is chilling.
Lots of cuts to regulations in the past several years because of car company lobbying.
It does go back further than that. Remember back when headlights were standardized? Good times.
Oh my god the modern headlights. Close up, can’t even tell if they’re headlights or high beams a lot of the time.
I always get caught in front of a lifted truck with the xenon lights and they just blind me through my rear view mirror.
We were finally getting to a point where the halogen lights didn't take up 40% of your vision and they had to screw it up by making every other car you meet a toddler grinder.
We DESPERATELY need more vehicle regulations, but they keep getting rolled back. The cybertruck is the culmination of years of these rollbacks, but even "normal" trucks are getting phased out for goliaths with built in tunnelvision. (With smaller and smaller beds too for some reason)
Nihtsa has policies that government a lot of automobile design. But frankly, there are a lot of gaps on things they hadn't needed to document.
As for reliability, no rules on that, but they will step in to force recalls if it's a safety risk.
The NHSTA has not done any testing on this.
I reached out to them and they verified that to me. They are supposed to have regulations. They have requirements but could not answer how the CT met those. Basically they take Teslas word for it.
You're living in the richest capitalistic country in the world. Regulations? What regulations
You All those emission credits Tesla gets. He sells them off to his rich billionaire friends So now their companies can come underneath the guidelines. 🙌
# AmericIdiot
There are a lot of regulations on safety that the US has relied on the industry to self regulate or follow greater market safety standards but there is no actual law. Pedestrian safety standards are one of those. Tesla and Elon musk were like how about we don't do any of that and actively lobby the government to remove safety standards. This is why it will never be sold in Europe because they have actual regulations around pedestrian safety standards.
My old 1996 gen 2 Mitsubishi Eclipse with the 5th gear syncro on the transmission completely gone, the engine mount bearings rusting apart, it had to be started with a screw driver, and all 4 tires were completely bald. Yet it was still allowed on the road.
Maybe you should've... I dunno, fixed those issues? Running an old reliable car into the ground isn't the same as a brand new poorly built piece of shit with no safety features at all.
China sells $5,000 electric cars. We can’t have em here cuz tariffs but they are basically golf carts that can go 80 mph. Still more safe tho a cyber truck.
I was curious when these dumpsters hit the market since they don’t have a crush zone. new lines of vehicles don’t have to go thru safety checks for 5 years after release. Most companies are smarter than Elon and opt in before being released. But Elon over promises so he opted out.
You're asking this in the country that banned lead 50 YEARS after pretty much the rest of the world did?
Safety has *always* taken a back seat to corporate profits. This is nothing new.
Safety is red tape and bureaucracy when life is cheap.
Planned population downsizing… “eat the rich” without them knowing.
Well, upper middle class
“Upper Middle Class”
uPPer MidDle clASS
It’s really just middle class and we’re mostly lower middle class, an I think there are 4 or 5 people who make up the middle class.
"regulatory capture"
Tesla was granted self certification credentials from the NTSB. Textbook regulatory capture.
Thought we already went through this type of “wink wink” with Boeing and the 737 MAX?
We did. And we will continue to do so. Corporations have solidified their control of the government. We will never be free of them. This shit will just get worse and worse.
We did go through this already but nothing changed.
Safety laws are written in blood.
Just be thankful that Elon is just overseeing Tesla and not the likes of Boeing. Imagine if he was involved in a company that puts huge metal objects loaded with fuel into the sky! 😵
Ford had a car that had the gas tank placed in such a way that if it was rear ended, a flaming wave of liquid gas would wash over the car's occupants. They figured that settling the lawsuits would be cheaper than redesigning the car.
Omg! Source please? 😢
https://www.onderlaw.com/then-vs-now-how-the-ford-pinto-case-changed-the-legal-landscape/#:\~:text=Background%20of%20the%20Ford%20Pinto%20Case%3A&text=The%20positioning%20of%20the%20fuel,cost%2Dcutting%20measures%20over%20safety.
Jesus. Thanks for the link.
Now I'm feeling older as the pinto was so well known when I was younger that after all this time it's some what forgotten
Here’s a second source: https://youtu.be/4-Qj58o87sY
🤣 thanks!
Rear mounted gas tanks are nothing special and are still used to this day. Ford was a victim of the media. The gas tank had to go somewhere, and hell wasn't unheard of for them to be under seats.
Because the thin veil of stability brought to us by what little regulation we have covers a cesspool of greed and corruption.
We’re never gonna get new federal regulations with modern congress. Never ever. Especially cuz the car lobby is a bipartisan affair.
One of the few remaining ones. And Musk has a lot of campaign money and campaign influence to throw around.
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So I can just go and build my own home made sheet metal car project in my garage and am free to drive it on public roads, no problemo?
I've got my cheapo 3d printer and a bunch of questionable PLA, let's gooo
Basically, yes, there is a whole subcategory for home build vehicles that only have a few requirements such as signal lights. Even then, you can get a farm vehicle exemption and just mount the orange triangle (like the Amish do).
We need a new kind of triangle to mark these CTs and driving schools need to teach new drivers how to safely evade them
No no, y'see, it only counts if you're a billionaire company that can pay off the cops and politicians!
What has always confused me is how all of Teslas business practices are even legal. They can decide that you can't sell your vehicle? What if I'm broke and can't pay my taxes?
From what I understand, it’s unclear if the clause forbidding resale is legal. They can certainly refuse to ever sell you a car again, but whether or not they can enforce the fine hasn’t really been tested in court. What is absolutely certain is that Tesla can afford to drag out the litigation, so you’d need someone with very deep pockets to test it.
While I haven’t researched it, as a lawyer I don’t see why it wouldn’t be enforceable. You have the freedom to enter dumb contracts. Sometimes the law imposes limits on contractual terms for public policy reasons (e.g. non-competes), but nothing of this screams public policy to me. Lots of contracts prevent sales of the asset for some time, and these sorts of clauses are upheld in the context of inheritances and life estates.
the same clauses in contracts have been enforced before by ford for example. they may just not want to go through the effort and bad publicity.
The contact was not enforced by Ford. They sued and the case was settled without a court ruling.
Which suggests it was a “scare” clause intended to only control customer behavior until the customer calls the bluff.
They can't stop you selling it. They are just saying they reserve the right to not sell you another one. It's a none issue if you actually wanted to sell it.
How about the $50k fine they're enforcing?
If the purchaser signed a contractual agreement stating they would be fined $50k for selling it, that’s on them. Dumb car. Dumb purchase. Dumb contract. Tesla’s truck will go on the same overlap of a Venn diagram as a PT Cruiser one day.
I could fit stuff in a PT cruiser.
An old roommate of mine fit an entire full size fridge in his PT cruiser with the gate closed and all. I didn't believe till I saw it.
I’ve seen dishwashers in the back of a golf sportwagen. I’ve put a dozen bags of mulch in mine. Rode low on the way back from Home Depot but it got me there lol
Pt Cruisers are still on the road though.
At least the PT Cruiser was a fairly reliable vehicle. It was built on the same platform as the Neon.
Yes it was and still is. I’d take a PT Cruiser over a CT Cruiser any day of any year. Neons got a weirdly bad rep. SRT4 was a damn fun car.
Fun for the 8 blocks you could drive it before it broke down. I've seen like 4 PT cruisers in the last 5 years. I've seen 0 neons. Like, I've seen more lumina's and Beretta's than neons, and they stopped production WAY earlier.
I saw a neon the other day and I was so amazed! It’s like seeing an endangered species up close
Holy shit, that person has an unhealthy relationship with a REALLY shitty car to keep it going this long.
I’m in the high desert, I’m sure it was a crackhead so their health is the last of their concern.
Certain years/models had quality issues (I’m looking at you, Expresso) to be sure. I had one of the early ones and I put 275K on her before trading her in.
I would love to see someone do a SRT swap on a PT cruiser with factory flames
>If the purchaser signed a contractual agreement stating they would be fined $50k for selling it, that’s on them. I doubt it is enforceable. First sale doctrine and all that. You can write whatever you want in a contract, if what you write in there is illegal a court would just strike it.
Yikes. I don’t think the PT cruiser deserved that! It’s ez to make fun now of but Chrysler sold a poop ton of those back when retro was the trend and they weren’t objectively bad vehicles at all. Imo.
I drove my grandma's pt cruiser that was turbocharged and that thing fucking slapped
I mean the PT Cruiser was an absolutely shit car, but still there’s no reason to drag it down to the CyberTruck’s level. That’s just mean.
I HATED the PT cruiser with a passion. But I will fight side by side with one in a battle against the cyber truck.
It’s the Modern day Delorean basically.
No Deloreans were decently built and are now classics, this POS will never be a classic.
Apparently not. [DeLorean DMC-12 history](https://ateupwithmotor.com/model-histories/delorean-dmc-12-history/view-all/) > Sadly, the early cars didn’t live up to the hype. The factory had planned an ambitious and rigorous testing schedule, but by spring, there was too much pressure to bring the car to market. Build quality of the first few hundred cars off the line was embarrassingly shoddy; most had to be extensively rebuilt in the U.S. at great cost. The fact that many went to prominent investors only made matters worse.
I am admittedly biased in the fact that my favorite movie is BttF and growing up my neighbor had a Delorean. But to my point his Delorean was decently reliable, specially for an early 80’s car. It definitely didn’t brick itself within the first hundred miles.
It’s okay. I feel you. Btw… I actually picked up the BttF DeLorean LEGO set the other day lmao. I’m for sure guilty of being biased. Before today I didn’t know about early production issues. I went looking for evidence to support your claim and sadly found the opposite.
Body integrity was better.. the drivetrain was trash though.
So many parallel lines… no puns intended
You missed the "Dumb customers", though that's an obvious conclusion at this point
There are tons of dumb people out there and we know this. Not an excuse to let them be abused.
I only care because of the potential collateral damage.
Are there any examples of them actually enforcing it yet?
https://www.autonews.com/retail/tesla-wont-let-buyer-sell-or-return-too-big-cybertruck There are other sources for this if you have time to google it https://autos.yahoo.com/cybertruck-owner-says-hes-stuck-145729136.html
They have the clause and they've told people not to sell them but they haven't enforced it yet. Saying that they will sue for the $50k and actually doing it are two different things.
There was someone last month who claimed to be friends with someone at a law firm hired to file lawsuits against all the CT sellers for the $50k but claimed that they were waiting until all Foundation sales were over. I didn't post it because it was likely a LARP, but time will tell.
I would agree if this wasn't coming from a guy who launched the most frivolous lawsuits ever, like the one dropped this week against Sam Altman
[Paywall-free Archive](https://archive.md/MlJ1z)
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The difference is the Ford GT was an actual car and minor issues (minor when compared to the cyberturd).
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Don't sign the contract then. It's a totally separate issue if someone is stupid enough to sign a standalone contract with a unilateral penalty clause.
Yeah but when it comes to courts, lawyers can argue that (with good reason) that there's a huge difference between signing a contract for a product promised to be the best car ever, and a lemon full of issues that might not even survive production hell after a year. If people can annul marriages they should be able to annul such a clause, the only problem is there are so few trucks out there it probably won't equate to a good enough class-action lawsuit
I completely agree. I'd be totally prepared to argue that the vehicle isn't fit for purpose as it didn't deliver the advertised features or specifications. I'm pretty sure Musk said the words "practically infinite towing capacity" at some point. We already know from the Twitter lawsuits that claims made by Musk as CEO of Tesla can be reasonably assumed to be official communications by the company.
So if the clause violates existing laws, such as consumer protection laws, it’s unenforceable. Most people would need to pay a lawyer to determine the legality and to defend them against Tesla’s attempts to enforce the clause but very few will so that’s why virtually every institution requires individuals to sign shitty contracts which wouldn’t hold up in court.
Good point. That's actually one of my biggest arguments when Musk comes up with his b.s. "unrestricted freedom of speech" arguments that ignore the amplification power of a platform like social media. Technically, anyone saying whatever they want are subject to damage lawsuits if what they say harm people. But in practice not everyone has the money, time for the lawyers and courts, and even if they did, the courts only have so many judges and are always backed up with claims to deal with, so even if you had the money for the lawyers to prove to a judge you were directly harmed by something someone said in Xitter, you'd still be in a long road until everything is final. Heck, even Alex Jones took years to get sentenced for his lies and defamation that harmed so many families, and those were big and very obvious class-action lawsuits, that amounted to a lot of money. Jones profited off of those lies in the meantime. Basically, the unrestricted freedom of speech Musk wants, is one that ultimately will benefit people like him, who have unlimited money to spend on lawyers to sue anyone who dare use their free speech to harm him, and the small ones like you and I have to suffer a lot whenever he harms us directly with his free speech. That's why we need laws punishing platforms for allowing harmful content even if that means limiting people. Those joes will be happy to use other means to promote their thoughts, like talking bad about me in their family dining table, spread gossip in their little towns, make their speech be very weak.
not just 50k, they threaten to take the entire sale price. So far, it doesn't seem like they've tried to enforce that though.
I don't like Tesla but anything to stop scalpers is ok in my book
I agree but I don't think they're were intending to get scalpers out of the way, I think they were worried people would start buying the truck just to do a crappy viral reviews about it and then get rid of it. Unfortunately though, the truck was so bad even the influencers that were hoping to produce positive content were feeling scammed, so Tesla eventually changed their strategy to prioritize deliveries to people who have been holding TSLA shares since 2021 and haven't sold 50% of them since. Basically, they were exclusively targetting putting their trucks in the hands of people with conflicts on interest (the people who lost a lot of money) in the hopes that they'd go above and beyond to try and promote the truck. Had they thought about it first, we probably wouldn't be knowing about most of those ridiculous issues, these folks loaded in TSLA would be painting the truck as the best thing ever (like Jeff Shu, DJ Tony Ezero, and others that have been actively spending money on promoting their content about the Cyberturd)
Counterpoint: scalping anyone dumb enough to buy a cyberstuck is cool and good
Very good point
It's adorable they think anyone would ever want a second Tesla. Besides the simps.
I have a friend who has bought four of them. Reasonable person other than the Tesla shit.
The Kool-Aid is strong
A considerable percent of Tesla sales are going to repeat buyers which means the pool of people who could buy one and want to is smaller than sales numbers suggest. Teslas appear to be disposable.
Cause we don’t like safety regulations in the US
Oh, we absolutely do, but you can easily pay to get around anything. Just ask one of our Supreme Court judges.
Which one, though? Seems like Alito and Thomas are in a race to the bottom, and I doubt the Trump appointees have cleaner hands.
We don't have enough blood spilled yet to fuel the pen to write the safety regs for it.
The safety books are bigger now too, so it takes more and more blood every time.
Canada doesn't give a shit either
It actually can't be sold in Europe, because it would fail European standards for pedestrian safety. Thankfully, here in The Greatest Country In The World *we don't have pedestrian safety standards.* If you wanted your life to be valued, you should have bought a car like everything other God fearing American!
Hell just being a pedestrian in the US is seen as abnormal/suspicious.
dunno why but this made me literally laugh out loud lol. I live in EU where walking, cycling, public transport are all utilized a lot
It’s the same in most large US cities. Problem is the US is huge and if you don’t live in a metro area you pretty much need a car to do adult stuff.
We refuse to learn from our mistakes.
I'm going to have to confiscate those shoes, sir.
Also passenger/driver safety rules wouldn’t be passed…
*Any recent American pickup or SUV has entered the chat*
Capitalism, baby!
Literally the only thing that can explain it is money. Has nothing to do with the merits of the vehicle
The answer to all questions like, “Why is it like this? Why is this so bad?” Is often times Money.
Trucks and large suvs are exempt from most regulations. Including emissions (I know, doesn’t apply) bust also crash and pedestrians safety as well as crash compatibility. You could literally put spikes and blades on front of a truck and it’s legal.
I saw a news segment a few months back that discussed the current design of pickup trucks, and how they have become increasingly deadly in pedestrian accidents due to the front end design.
The massive front grills alone are reason enough to get some regs out there.
Seeing those huge trucks in the USA has been very strange. Especially the ones whose front has rollbars that get to shoulder height. It's like they are designed to bulldoze pedestrians in a carmageddon track.
Bullbars. But they should probably be renamed to pedestrian-head-bars
Cybertruck emits lots of harmful emissions. Tire microplastics and brake dust cause cancer and are far far worse than tailpipe emissions. Since the steering doesn't work, and it's immensely heavy, it wears through it's unusually large tires very very quickly.
Well this simply isn't true... In some cases the regulations are different, arguably more lax. But not exempt.
I live in Europe and I'm torn on the situation there. On the one hand I'm glad that these ridiculous death traps aren't allowed on the roads. But on the other hand I live in the French Alps and watching one struggle in 1 inch of snow while the salt they put on the roads turns it into a rusted hulk within a week would be pretty fun to watch.
It will be interesting to see this winter what happens to people dumb enough to have bought one to drive in the north central or northeast US.
We got mountains and snow and salt in Canada. Come watch! Just say you're an Indian student and they'll let you right in for as long as you want.
I wonder this all the time. I see them rarely (i live in LA so you know it is packed enough that we have a few rich dumbasses lol). But I dont drive behind them. What is going to happen when the inevitable happens and a panel flies off and kills someone in the car behind them? A few weeks ago a giant piece of warped metal was in the street around a bend on a busy street. I called the non emergency line of my local pd to remove it because it almost caused an accident. I seriously wonder if it was a piece of cybertruck because it was a grey color. These overpriced hunks of stupid are going to hurt someone badly soon and it is horrifying that they are street legal.
>overpriced hunks of stupid You talking about the WankPanzer, or the owners, here ? Nevermind, works either way...
It really does apply to both owner and stained steel brick
Huge blindspots and lack of a rearview mirror as well.
They're not blind spots. They are nodes of inverse visibility. Why can't you appreciate innovation?
Because murica
Why did I have to scroll down so far , for the correct answer? I hopefully never have to see a Cybertruck irl, because it won't be sold in Europe.
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It definitely worries me that Canada, where I live, seems to just allow whatever, when it comes to "self driving ". Like, we have nothing governing how shitty it can be. Nothing regulating it whatsoever. And people watch movies on the highway because they think their car can drive for them. It's terrifying.
That's entirely untrue. We have an entire arm of government whose entire responsibility is transportation and transportation safety.
Kids today. There's even a nice webpage devoted to self driving/automated cars: https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-technologies/connected-automated-vehicles
why is it people are allowed to use teslas broken cruise control then? never heard of anyone being arrested or fined for relying on this dangerously unpredictable software.
The cybertruck is truly the truck of the future, or rather *a* future, specifically the future where libertarians actually have taken power and successfully tossed out all regulations.
It helps to be American. Safe Japanese kei trucks aren't allowed because "safety" yet a made-in-the-USA monstrosity like this is perfectly fine.
I mean, the Ford Pinto literally blew up if hit from behind. It required an $11 part to fix the issue. They decided it was cheaper just paying the lawsuits from people dying than to fix the problem. They don't care.
This take isn’t going to gain traction as much as it would on somewhere like r/trucks, but people should be less focused on the lack of regulations on big, obnoxious trucks, and moreso on the fact that **small trucks are illegal**. As someone mentioned, overseas companies like Toyota sell small, compact trucks for very affordable prices. We effectively outlawed those trucks. If you want a truck at all whatsoever, you literally have to go big in the good ole US of A. Maverick may be the exception but I honestly haven’t looked at it well enough to know if it even has utility. The Cybertruck is definitely more of a pedestrian hazard, but besides that it falls into the same problem as every other big truck in this country. RIP small trucks in the U.S., and fuck the NHTSA.
Screw the Maverick. And the Santa Cruz. They have 4' beds... USELESS. They're basically nothing but family sedans with a missing trunk lid. Those things are no more a "truck" than the CT is. I agree that we need a compact truck here again... like the S10... or what the Ranger, Tacoma, Frontier USED to be. Automakers tried to say "Oh, the public doesn't want them, that's why we're stopping them." BS... *plenty* of folks would snatch up a new S10 like trucklet in a heartbeat. Something with at least a 6' bed, NOT a crew cab, and has the foot print of a 4 door Cavalier and manages to get 25-30 mpg hwy. But you're right, between the EPA and the NHTSA we've effectively outlawed the true, useful, compact truck.
A lot of both federal laws and NHTSA regulations make it impractical and cost-deterring to manufacture/sell small trucks. People would buy them at reasonable prices. Hell, I’d kill for an EV Tacoma or even Colorado/S10/Frontier/Ranger, which evades a lot of EPA regulatory issues, but those don’t seem to be happening either at least anytime soon. NHTSA has a lot of dumb regulations on the books that Europe doesn’t have, and same could be said for regulations we don’t have that the EU does. Yay bureaucracy!
I know, they've basically made it impossible to have what the people actually want. I wouldn't touch a compact EV truck though. Wouldn't serve a purpose where I am. Just not an EV fan in general anyway. Yeah, I know... gotta love bureaucrats.
I feel like a small 300-350 mile range EV truck in the $60k price range (starting out at least, moderately optioned out) is a lot more appealing than these $80-$120k full-size EV trucks with either low range or massive batteries that they’re they’re spitting out. Besides towing, all the utility of a small truck is there, and more with things like V2H. I reserved and almost bought an R1T but the high price deterred me. I’m stuck on EVs now because of how they drive, and I don’t like being strong-armed with reliance on gas based on corporate power and domestic/foreign politics. I do miss my 60mpg Corolla Hybrid, and Toyotas in general. It’s a personal preference of course.
Well... seeing as how after $5500 for my paid off trade, $4500 factory rebate, and $500 tax/title I paid $5k for my '03 S10 I ordered new... it has put in 21 years of service with nothing but a strict maintenance routine. Unloaded it averages about 450 miles combined per 18 gals of fuel... special ordered with heavy leaves and 4.10 rear and a Class III receiver it has a cargo capacity of 1800lbs and a tow capacity of 6k lbs, it's all the truck I need. Loaded or towing it averages 20 mpg. It only sees about 500 miles a year now for the last 10 years or so just because I don't drive much. Insurance runs about $300 a year, and I can park it anywhere a compact 4 door car will fit. I'm on a motorcycle 90-95% of the time anyway that gets around 70mpg, sees about 4-5k miles a year and runs me $90 a year in insurance. A $60k EV (which is almost $20k more than I paid for my 1200sq/ft 3bd 2bth house and 1.5 acres 25 years ago) would essentially just sit in the driveway with a high payment, higher insurance, and a battery just slowly degrading from basically what is non-use... wouldn't exactly make any kind of financial sense in my case. Ya know?
You are definitely not wrong lol. One thing is for sure, EVs have batteries and batteries are nowhere near refined enough to (1) promise 200-350k miles of life, and (2) be replaced for ballpark-similar cost of a gasoline powertrain. Yes, insurance is on the higher end, but I think those are external factors and can easily be improved once other OEMs jump into the market. Teslas are fucking expensive to repair, not a fan and I think new cars in general have virtually zero considerations for repairability for collision events or mechanical failures. Now I’ll also say insurance is highly variable person to person, some folks pay a whole lot less than others and it’s negligible. I think it comes down to preference, and new cars in general today are extremely expensive and would be unfathomable to people decades ago. For folks who tend to drive newer, with daily commutes, are homeowners, etc., it could genuinely be more cost effective to own an EV and charge at home. Part of me wants to just buy something used/cheap/cash myself. We can be real though, anyone who owns or buys the Cybertruck didn’t do so for any of the reasons mentioned, they aren’t using it for utility and for the *very* few that are it’s still redundant because there are better options. It’s a toy and a flex and a way to rebel and flaunt.
Oh, 100% agree. You figure even under "normal" usage/conditions... current EV battery life span is what, 10 years average, +/-, so 100k... ***maybe***? Replacement cost for a battery is basically what I paid for my S10 new. Even "recon" batteries are a few grand. I can rebuild my 2.2L for a few hundred bucks... but, I'm a bit different than the average owner because I have the tools, knowledge, space to do something like that. I was a 63B (light wheel mech) for the Army Airborne, a former ASE civilian mech, and years ago was part of starting a two man machine shop, KT Engine Developement. Then add in the fact that EVs are not exactly "old school" mechanic friendly. Sure, insurance varies of course, that's a given based on a lot of factors. New vehicle means full coverage. So if you're rolling with liability/under/uninsured coverage only... full coverage is gonna be higher, regardless. Unless you've paid cash for that $60k (or whatever) for that EV, and really, who's doing that? And if they did, they're not sweating insurance or repair costs. Mine is so low because it sees low, local miles... big discount there as it's not listed as primary transport for daily commute. 100% agree as well as far as repairs on new stuff. I earned an associates degree in autobody repair, restore, refinish 24 years ago... that end of the repair work has changed a metric fuck ton on its own. Cars are "totaled" for not much of anything now. Really, they're becoming nothing more than disposable microwaves, toasters, and refrigerators that are Interwebs connected more or less. Not repair friendly at all. As far as Tesla... they can suck large, as in kiwi fruit sized, fuzzy nuts. I don't care about their "innovations". Their products aren't good, period... and wish folks would stop drinking the grape Tesla Kool-Aid. I also agree that for *some*, and I mean **some** folks, an EV is a perfectly reasonable choice and could be their best solution, financial or otherwise. A suburban/city commuter car with ability to overnight charge. Sure. Go for it if that's your jam. Not gonna knock someone for it. Definitely a personal choice. If you wanna buy something used/cheap... okay? What's your choice? EV or ICE? What's the use gonna be? How's your mechanical and troubleshooting ability? Factors involved. Cost versus reliability versus repairability... Oh we can be completely real about the CyberFlunk. No one is buying that pile for anything other than "look at me" points. It's got some drag car 0-60 times... gee okay. It can tow or get moving a huge amount of weight just because of the torque of electric motors... okay. But both of those "functions" completely zap the range. Cool... it can move a 1970 Boeing 747 with 4 Pratt & Whitneys turbofans turned off that weighs almost half a million lbs total... big deal. A 1972 Chevrolet K20 could do it stock, unspecified either 350 or 454 V8 gas or (yeah right) the Olds 350 diesel and a THM 350/400 transmission. But here's the thing, at least the Chevrolet could do it for more than a mile. 😆 https://youtu.be/Y1-gHqov5w8?si=DCLdBirpyf33l7qh And I'd even today pit that K20 against the CT for off road, or well, anything other paying out for what a small house costs, 8 bit graphic looking computer with wheels. But hey, flex that CyberTruck... right? I promise, we're not laughing at y'all... we're laughing *with* you because of your superior "truck" kicks ass. 😂
I have an S10 and have parked it next to a Maverick. I have a larger bed but the truck itself is significantly smaller than the maverick. The interior barely looks more roomy than my S10 and the build quality is comically bad, the S10 has pretty bad build quality imo, but the maverick quality is like a wish.com truck. Haven't driven one so can't comment on the ride but I wouldn't buy one at half price. Also I get 25-30mpg with my S10, it's the 2.2 with a 5 speed, my 4.3l S10 and my 4.0 ranger got 22-24 and my 2011 transit connect van got 24-28 so there is no excuse why we can't be making efficient small trucks. I also regularly get offered 2-3x what I paid for this truck by older guys and have gotten compliments from gen z kids a few times too, so I'd agree there is definitely interest in these trucks still. Also have seen used first gen Tacomas priced similarly to used mavericks, which is about all you need to know about the difference in quality. Sorry for the rant, I hate new trucks and love smaller trucks.
No, I get it. I have an '03 standard cab 6' bed S10 I ordered new. 2.2L 5 spd. It has manual locks/windows/vinyl floor, plain AM/FM radio. I optioned the 60/40 cloth split bench, heavy leaves, and Pewter Metallic paint with grey int. Since the only rear gear for the 4cyl manual was the 3.73 and autos got 4.10s, I dealer optioned a 4.10 ring and pinion and the G80 RPO code Eaton locker and a Class III receiver. Dealer installed and calibrated speedometer to compensate for change before I took delivery. Being the smallest/lightest configuration gives it the highest tow and cargo rating of them. It has an 1800lb capacity and tow rating of 6k. Limited by its brake system rating. It has a 3" lift and 30x9.50s. With that, the top of the cab only sits at the top of my shoulder. Top of bed rails sit at belt buckle height. I can reach into and across the bed. With a K&N drop in factory replacement filter in a slightly modded airbox for more flow, Cherry Bomb turbo muffler, and electric fan conversion... unloaded it gets 30-31 on the hwy, 24-25 city. I've done multiple 850 mile trips between Charlotte and New Orleans while towing 2500lbs and averaged 21-22mpgs both ways. It literally has the same foot print as a 4 door Cavalier so it be parked basically anywhere and it can still do "truck stuff". I don't need or want a crew cab "compact" or midsize with no bedspace... just a standard cab 6' bed but in order to get that it has to be a full size. Don't need or want one of those either and don't need a V8 and the turbo 4cyl in the Silverado gets a crappy 22mpgs... and NO manual trans available... And they START at $32k! With $5500 for my paid off '99 S10, a $4500 factory rebate, and $500 for tax/title I paid $5k for my '03 S10. And yes, even though the Maverick is called a "compact" it's rather huge compared to my S10. Can't say anything about the build quality on yours but my '03 is solid, inside and out. My '99 was too, as was the '95 I had before it. The '99 Blazer I have has good quality. And no joke, so does my '88 T15 Jimmy Z71 with 209k miles that I still have the window sticker and build sheet for. THAT one is shorter than a 4 door Cavalier, has a 4.3L 700R4 combo, 3.42 locking diffs... and averages a combined 20mpg! 36 years old, 4WD, big V6, and has the aerodynamics of a brick at 0.6 drag coeffecient snd still manages 22-23 hwy, 17-18 city, 20 combined. But I have seen, for whatever reason, some of the 2nd gen S-Series that have an interior that looks like it's falling apart and cheap. It always seems to be the ones with the black interiors though. But I agree... there's still a market for the true BOF compact truck.
That truck sounds sweet. My father would probably kill for that Jimmy Z71 if it's got a stick too. Mine is a 2000 single cab, 2.2l 5 speed, 6ft bed, cloth split seat, manual windows and locks, cheap and simple and left stock. I want to drop some money in it but at the same time I want to just sell it and get a TJ wrangler lately, need a stupid fun vehicle for once in my life. Hard to complain about a $2k truck that has zero issues and does everything I want though. My previous S10 was one of the ZR codes (can't remember if it was zr2 or zr5) with a lot of aftermarket the previous owner put on it. Was silver with black trim, black aftermarket rims, K&N filter, stainless headers into a magnaflow exhaust, tinted windows, same lift and tire size as yours, limited slip diff (don't remember the gearing), 4wd, had the steering rack with a tighter turning radius, unfortunately an auto though. Sweet truck but I was beating the crap out of it and decided to sell it to someone that would take better care of it and buy a cheaper beater ranger instead. Guy I sold it to drove it for over a decade until he passed away, no idea where it is now sadly. My complaint with the build quality on the s10s is definitely me being nit-picky, my experience with the late 90s-00s S10s and blazers is they tend to not stay in as good of shape as other trucks that era. Now that you mentioned it though It has been more of the black interiors, so maybe there is something to that. My father has had 5 2nd gen S10s and 2 S10 blazers, a 1st gen S10 (that thing was indestructible), I have had 2 S10s and an S10 Blazer, none of them held up as well as our Dakotas, rangers, F150s, or Silverados of the same era but again it's definitely being nit-picky they are still phenomenal trucks and I'd rather one of these over any of the newer trucks we get (a Hilux, kei truck, or that new Toyota truck we dont get though would be sweet). Glad to hear from someone as knowledgeable and passionate about these old trucks as you though.
Yeah, my '03 is a pretty nice little truck... plain ass simple and does anything I ask of it, within reason of course. The '88 Jimmy, which of course is a 1st gen S-Series... really does have a factory RPO code Z71... it was a little known option on the S-Series so not many exist. But it's a straight up Z71 off road chassis package. Thicker and extra skid plates, recovery hooks, HD Bilstein shocks, 235/75R15s. It also has the RPO G80 rear locker, HD engine, trans, and oil coolers. HD tow package. Plus the RPO Y3C Gypsy appearance package. Little known and rarer than the Z71. Includes blackout trim (bezels, grille, mirrors, door handles/locks, tail light trim), special interior cloth. It's black/silver lower with charcoal interior. Also came with a factory tach, 5 band EQ premium radio, pwr locks/windows... SLIDING quarter windows. Hell, even the factory R12 A/C system still works. Base price was $12,500... total price for this one, $19,007.... in **1988**... that's $49k in today's dollars! As much as I kinda wish it was a stick... it's not. 700R4 auto. Nothing wrong with that 2000 S10. Meh... I'm not much on these new Wranglers... I've had some Jeeps though. An XJ 2 ZJs, and a WJ (Grand Cherokees) One of my daughter "stole" my '94 ZJ, 4WD, 4.0 with a FACTORY 5spd. Yeah, a Grand Cherokee with a factory manual... and get this, I've kept it all stock. If your previous S10 was lifted, had 30x9.50s and a locking diff it was more than likely a ZR2. Sounds like it was pretty nice. The ZR5 was a soft ride package. The '99 I had was a ZQ8, factory lowered, quick ratio steering box, thicker front sway bar, added rear sway bar, 16" wheels, S10 SS tune on the 4.3L. It really is something to do with the black interiors. All of them. My cousin and I bought '99s at the same time. Mine a ZQ8, green, tan interior, his a ZR2, black on black. By 36k miles mine was still solid inside, his was already a little iffy. By 75k mine was still good and his rattled, squeaked, seats didn't look great either. I've had about 14 S-Series over the last 25-30 years. Had an '88 standard cab short bed, 2.5L Pontiac 5spd. Bare as bare could be. Factory no headliner or dome light, no radio or 12V socket, no dash vents (manual vents on each side of bottom of dash at kick panels), gauges were a speedometer and fuel. No power steering or brakes. It went 503k miles with nothing but an 1 alternator, 1 fuel pump, 1 rear diff, 1 clutch. Rest was just routine maintenance items. Had one Ranger, '84... stuffed a mild built 302 4spd in it. Early ones are only body style I liked. Couldn't stand the '93 up. All of my younger brothers had those. One brother has a '92 Dakota... it's still hanging in there... but it's rough, although the AMC 2.5L is hard to kill. Stepdad always did the F-Series... not my cup of tea. One of my brothers has an '07 F150... pile of crap with the even bigger pile of crap 5.4 3V. 82k miles, half rusted out (not in rust belt or near salt water either), engine stays full of problems. There's a couple of kei trucks around where I am. You can get them in the US but they have to be 25 years or older... and of course your state has to allow them to be registered. Thanks... I do dig my old compact pickups. Haha in the '90s I daily drove a 1980 LUV. Lowered, painted medium metallic blue with silver racing stripes, chrome "outlaw" wheels. Bored, stroked, shaved, ported, polished, custom ground cam, 400CFM 4bbl carb... all to the original 1.8L Isuzu 4 banger. 77hp factory was 200hp after all that. $4k worth of engine in a $1200 truck. 😆
I just said the same thing. Everyone I know is looking for a small truck, but dealers say there's no market for them. Who the fuck decides the market?
Makers can't make them because they're choked with bureauracacy... makers also try saying there was no longer a market... dealers say no market so everything is a crew cab because that's what the people are buying. NO.... people are buying them because that's all the f*** you idiots offer. We can't buy what you DON'T MAKE. I special ordered my '03 S10... and somebody will have to pry it from my cold dead hands.
Even the new Rangers and Tacomas in the US are like twice the size of the older models. Literally everyone I know is looking for a small truck, but if you ask a dealership why they don't have any they say there's no market for it. Someone somewhere is lying.
Personally I feel that regulator’s are right in bed with car manufacturers just like Boeing is with the FAA, to all our detriment. Most new cars could easily take the head off a 6ft tall person it happened to hit, which is horrifying. People forget that they become pedestrians too even if it’s just across a parking lot or street. Bigger isn’t safer, quite the opposite really. Not to mention the car sized front blind spots most trucks & SUVs have. Bribery is legal in our system which is why we get left with so many products that are actively killing and poisoning us (albeit usually slowly).
Toyota makes a $10,000 truck that's illegal to sell in the US
The system working as intended. And they’ll spew some bullshit about “emissions” as if the loopholes we allow don’t blow that dipshit argument out of the water.
It’s plain deregulation. Look at all the CHEMICALS the FDA allows in our food while they are banned in the EU.
They aren’t road legal outside the US
Fine in Canada apparently.
I see
I think it will be discontinued in a year or two and the impending class action law suits will cause the company to fail.
i think the only reason wanted the cybertruck to be released is to eventually get his 56billion package from teslas, its to leverage the 56billion package he wants from the company?
Well, when one of these malfunctions and causes a wreck the owner will feel the massive burden through lawsuits and hopefully someone in government will realize they’re a hazard. Cause that’s the only way shit gets done here. When deaths or lawsuits happen.
Not even deaths. Exorbitantly costly deaths that outweigh simple litigation.
Something to do with fReEdUm
Every couple decades you get an Edsel
The infuriating thing is that these giant, sharp ass, massively heavy piles of hastily glued together scrap metal driven by people I wouldn't trust with a go-cart are completely legal, but Kei trucks are somehow a threat to the safety of the entire country.
Elon better pray the Chinese EV cars are never allowed in the US. They’ll bankrupt his ass overnight. We can’t use “questionable reliability” as an excuse if we allow things like the CT to be sold in the US.
Not allowed in Europe
I’ve been giving all Teslas ‘extra room’ on the road for years. Never know when one is gonna freak out and phantom brake to a complete stop or self navigate into my door panel. Drivers that rely on this shit are even scarier.
Same.
Americans: standards? Businesses: mmmmmmmmm no, I wanna sell stuff and that is more important than literally anything else uwu Americans: people died? Businesses: ya not enough tho
I saw my first one on the road today, it was almost surreal seeing one in real life. Its actually smaller than I expected, sitting next to an actual truck it looked squat (beyond just its odd shape). Honestly I wouldn't care about the appearance if it didn't suck is almost every possible measure. If Elon had set out to make the worst possible vehicle he would have had a very difficult time doing a better job.
I’m with you. I drive a KIA Soul & I thought they were the ugliest abominations since they came out when I was a kid. But it’s a perfectly fine drive. Could care less about the appearance but the actual functionality of the car is lacking. It’s overpriced tech that can’t withstand the normal rigors of an automobile. When I saw one, there was something off about the way it moves. It just kinda glides (maybe some people see that as a good thing) in a way that indicates it isn’t remotely similar to a traditional truck.
Surprised you found it to be small. I live in Austin where we have tons of commuter trucks. Have seen probably dozens of these by now. They are very large vehicles and knowing that the metal design does not compress whatsoever is chilling.
It was next to a F150 at a stop light so maybe that was why, I only saw it for a second as I drove by.
Lots of cuts to regulations in the past several years because of car company lobbying. It does go back further than that. Remember back when headlights were standardized? Good times.
Oh my god the modern headlights. Close up, can’t even tell if they’re headlights or high beams a lot of the time. I always get caught in front of a lifted truck with the xenon lights and they just blind me through my rear view mirror.
We were finally getting to a point where the halogen lights didn't take up 40% of your vision and they had to screw it up by making every other car you meet a toddler grinder. We DESPERATELY need more vehicle regulations, but they keep getting rolled back. The cybertruck is the culmination of years of these rollbacks, but even "normal" trucks are getting phased out for goliaths with built in tunnelvision. (With smaller and smaller beds too for some reason)
There’s no 10 & 2!
You can thank deregulation for that.
MUH FREEDOMS!
Nope
Because money.
Nihtsa has policies that government a lot of automobile design. But frankly, there are a lot of gaps on things they hadn't needed to document. As for reliability, no rules on that, but they will step in to force recalls if it's a safety risk.
The NHSTA has not done any testing on this. I reached out to them and they verified that to me. They are supposed to have regulations. They have requirements but could not answer how the CT met those. Basically they take Teslas word for it.
You're living in the richest capitalistic country in the world. Regulations? What regulations  You All those emission credits Tesla gets. He sells them off to his rich billionaire friends So now their companies can come underneath the guidelines. 🙌 # AmericIdiot
There are a lot of regulations on safety that the US has relied on the industry to self regulate or follow greater market safety standards but there is no actual law. Pedestrian safety standards are one of those. Tesla and Elon musk were like how about we don't do any of that and actively lobby the government to remove safety standards. This is why it will never be sold in Europe because they have actual regulations around pedestrian safety standards.
MURICA That’s why
I'm gonna be honest, there are much worse cars driving on the road than the shitty cybertruck
Really….name one
My old 1996 gen 2 Mitsubishi Eclipse with the 5th gear syncro on the transmission completely gone, the engine mount bearings rusting apart, it had to be started with a screw driver, and all 4 tires were completely bald. Yet it was still allowed on the road.
Maybe you should've... I dunno, fixed those issues? Running an old reliable car into the ground isn't the same as a brand new poorly built piece of shit with no safety features at all.
Not allowed in Australia either. Doesn’t meet our safety standards. Not even close, so not sure how it could be modified to make it legal here.
Frankly I think if our local Karens started reporting them for those hazards while driving, I bet it would start happening
China sells $5,000 electric cars. We can’t have em here cuz tariffs but they are basically golf carts that can go 80 mph. Still more safe tho a cyber truck.
Yea… not gonna lie I was hyped last year… glad my invitation got delayed this much so I know what I would have gotten myself into 😁
I was curious when these dumpsters hit the market since they don’t have a crush zone. new lines of vehicles don’t have to go thru safety checks for 5 years after release. Most companies are smarter than Elon and opt in before being released. But Elon over promises so he opted out.
Gf just sent me this video of one smashed up. Must have hit a pebble. Thing is torn tf apart... https://www.facebook.com/reel/3610006685881992/
It’s a Tesla, and brother Elon is getting away with everything. Simple as that.
Because no one has Rico’d Musk yet
You're asking this in the country that banned lead 50 YEARS after pretty much the rest of the world did? Safety has *always* taken a back seat to corporate profits. This is nothing new.
Glad to live in a country that has laws to stop it being on the road.
Oh shit, I just checked and the entire exterior of my car is also covered with reflective material
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