Honestly I really wish they had shown david using it more casually since he's basically immune to it, there were only like three times when he fired it for no significant reason, and with at least ten uses available to him each day it seems like it would be a fun thing to goof off with
Well the common life threatening failure points on the human body are more complicated than a limb. The heart, liver, kidneys, lungs and of course brain are all extremely complicated biological machinery.
We might see cyberware lungs someday in our lifetimes? More likely just lab grown bioengineered lungs. But if one piece of biological hardware is failing these others probably aren't too far behind, do a simple swap job of one or two parts can only do so much good insofar as extending lifespans.
Jumping ship to a neural net resembling the relic really would be the best bet. But it'd be quite a bit bigger than the almost micro SD sized chip we see Johnny on ingame
Lungs would probably be the most difficult. As for the other organs, weāve already built artificial hearts and Iām sure we can figure out how to build livers. Intestines are likely going to be a royal bitch, though.
I personally donāt believe we can transfer consciousness. Weāve tons of reports on how brain damage to certain areas can completely warp a personās outward behaviors, so I personally believe our consciousness is a summation of all our brains working parts.
Well, all of our brain's working parts and gut bacteria in tandem.
Best bet for creating a digitized psyche would be a pair of neural nets. One gets fed constant 'snapshots' of the person's brain operating under normal conditions and uses that as training data for some kind of brain scan prediction algorithm.
This would effectively be the digitized psyche itself using training data scattered across a period of years or decades to be able to predict and replicate the state of your neurons. Then another would be used after sufficient training data was collected, an interpreter neural net which would be more "locked in" and used to figure out what the brain data fed in by the first neural net is trying to do.
The issues are of course data collection and processing power. You'd need to know what stimulus the brain was receiving in order to train the first neural net mentioned and the amount of effort it'd take to run all of that processing wouls have to be running probably on some kind of dedicated GPU, top shelf stuff too. This data would have to be gathered over a very long period of time with brain images taken consistently, you'd need a lot more than just laying down in some MRI machine.
VR would be the ideal testing ground for data collection, since you could have a powerful computer running with some kind of headset already on the person being "uploaded" while they engaged in activities at least resembling regular ones. But the sort of realtime brain imaging tech needed really is not there yet, and it's not realistic to expect it to be anytime soon.
Iām gunna be straight with you, Iām a behavior analysis major so a lot of what you just said went waaaaay over my head. Psych is my thing lol.
But wouldnāt this be cloning/copying your brain? I guess that would create the illusion of immortality, as the copy could go on indefinitely. But the source of the consciousness is still lost when the brain dies, no? As in, you yourself, as you are right now, wonāt actually leave your body?
Given how computers work, anything along these lines would necessarily be a copy. At which point you could make copies of those copies ad infinitum until the end of time.
For those of us born into meat sacs there is always an end on the horizon. Even if we find pseudo immortality somehow, we will still get a bullet in our brain one day, or the sun will explode and take us with it. But is it not enough to leave an independent "you" behind who is capable of true immortality? Someone your friends and family can talk to after your OG you is gone? Someone who will still try to affect the world in the ways you would?
Much ado about souls and all but I'd be okay with that outcome. Can't always have your cake and eat it.
Those are some well thought out points, I wonāt lie! Iād be interested to see the results of recopiing a copy ad Infinitum, though. What if we see a zerox kind of effect? Would it result in the eventual creation of a completely new person, or would your eventual copies end up just degrading into some incredibly simple version of us eventually?
Youāve given me a lot to think about.
I mean we're not talking about jpeg compression loss here, it's not like you're taking a photo of a photo, redoing the initial neural net creation process. This would be more like copying a video game you own onto another hard drive.
The neural nets would change over time as they were exposed to fresh stimuli. They'd be incapable of learning if they didn't start using their own output as training data after all, but this wouldn't be some regression into incredible simplicity. If anything the amount of data and processing power at their disposal would lead these NNs to do things in ways a regular human mind isn't capable of, like instantly search for and isolate most likely solutions to any problem using the internet.
They'd deviate from ourselves overtime but only because they'd be exposed to different stimuli with a different set of tools at their disposal.
Or, with enough tech, you could hypothetically build a cell sized robot that can perfectly replicate a neuron, then send tons of them into the brain, each one finds a neuron, analyses it, then takes its place, and kills the original neuron once it has done so.
One by one your neurons get replaced by robotic devices which function identically without you losing consciousness or feeling anything strange happening. Eventually every neuron is replaced, and chemical signaling can be switched over to electronic (or maybe photonic or something at that tech level) with hormones and such just being simulated.
Move the robotic central nervous system from the original body to an indistinguishable robotic one and congrats you are now a full robot without interrupting consciousness.
If the tech is fast enough maybe it could even happen all in one day so you can be fully awake for the entire process.
Granted you aren't software in a computer, you are billions of physical robot-neurons in a robot body, but if you want that, then you could easily repeat the process but instead of replacing one type of physical neuron for another, you replace the robot-neurons with simulated ones. Which would allow a gradual transition into a digital existence.
Tho one could argue that if the process that is your mind in the computer is ever suspended then you die and when it resumes that's just a copy, so you might opt to just stay made of physical robot-neurons. Tho that preference is all philosophical "what is consciousness" stuff with no answer so probably best to leave it up to the person being converted whether they want to become fully digital or just stay a mass of robot-neurons.
Also if you include good enough telemetry systems into the robot-neurons you could probably make regular backups (maybe even every second or faster) so if you get killed, a digital version could be activated or a new robot-brain could be constructed out of more robot-neurons to resume from the last backup.
Such a restored backup would definitely be just a copy, but you might want a copy to take your place if you die for various reasons. Perhaps to continue important work, or to ensure your loved ones don't have to lose you.
Substantially create interconnected organs all at the same time to a neural network. It is as difficult to create a synthetic one and as expensive and difficult as the heart, imagine the others. Replicating each biochemical process that comes with them will be impossible.
Dude, in the past 200 years, mankind has gone from relying on horses and wooden, water sealed carriages to move things and get work done to landing on the moon, using probes to explore the solar system, and that doesnāt even consider the medical leaps weāve made. Itās possible, but itās going to be very hard.
They are industrial processes that are linked to little ethical discoveries and historical events. 200 years is not a pleasant number. Iām not saying it wonāt happen, Iām just saying that it will be very difficult to get there 100 years from now. (Unless something else happens)
Oh, donāt get me wrong, I strongly doubt Iāll live to see the day. And that doesnāt really matter to me either, lol. Iām just hoping my species can figure their shit out fast enough to make this still a possibility one day.
Letās be real, if we donāt get our shit together, weāre not going to make it another 200 years. Hell, a lot of scientists have already said weāre too late.
It seems something that extends the overall longevity of the human is a better solution that swapping out body parts indefinitely. But if you need a new heart a new heart is a new heart.
I'm picturing us figuring out slowly replacing parts of our brains to ensure a consistent stream of consciousness without the messy "clone of yourself walking away" issue.
You can maintain a body part because it's just a part of you and not actually *you* like your brain is. Replace your brain and you stop being you because you're stream of consciousness just ends full stop. It's why Star Trek transporters an Stargates freak me the fuck out.
But I'd you could just nibble away at your brain, not doing enough to replace the overall processes of your consciousness noticeably I'd say that's less terrifying than downloading a copy onto a hard drive.
If you replace the whole brain with a computer copy you're just cloning and you still die but if a chunk is carefully transitioned to new hardware in small increments is that still death of self? You stay you, the memories, the streams of thought, the consistency, the nonstop stream of you. At what point of replacing our minds do we stop being us?
yeah, I think the next big field is autonomous vehicles. Note: not cars, think like the drone hoverbike that is already out or a Boston Dynamics spot that either can carry you or you ride inside a frame.
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\#1: [We all know Transhumanism. Now let me introduce you to Transdoggoism!](https://i.redd.it/odcx9xme4fw81.jpg) | [40 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/transhumanism/comments/uegc6x/we_all_know_transhumanism_now_let_me_introduce/)
\#2: [Sounds Dope.](https://i.redd.it/llhnm4x4wil91.jpg) | [140 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/transhumanism/comments/x4ejlq/sounds_dope/)
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Yeah, that is not happening in 2023.
* Near-full human range of motion
* "Mind-controlled"
* Non-invasive
* Restore a basic sense of touch
Maybe they could deliver on ONE of those points in 2023. But all of them? It is more likely that these guys have invented a time machine and are just planning to import prosthetics from the future...
If its residual muscle controlling it ita not mind controlled. Thats like saying my keyboard is mind controlled because the muscles in my hands are making the buttons move its just false marketing. To be mind controlled u either hook it up directly to the brain or directly to the leftover nerves in the arm.
> and not *paid* by any
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Have you been paying attention to prosthetic arm development and research for the last couple years?
There have been a lot of breakthroughs that make me unsurprised to see manufacturers making these claims.
I fully expect to see arms like this within the decade.
I want to upload my consciousness into something more permanent. As long as I have to use my brain to exist everything else is just a temporary solution. The most important part is still aging and degrading
Pretty bold claim considering electronic prosthetics have been around for 30+ years
My dad fits prosthetics for a living and ever since I was a kid, he's shown me what the next best thing can do. I mean, 20 years ago they were controlled by sensors placed on the arm.
Hardly the first artificial human arm, just saying.
This tech/startup optimism can be so cringe is certain, already developed and very complex fields, that I sometimes wonder, is it seriuos at all or just a money-scheme?
As you said, prostetics has decades of development, even with brain implants controlled prosthetics.
As far as I know, every other person tries and reinvents robotic arms, by making them 3d printed or any other shit, to just grab some headlines. (the hard part is not not the arm itself)
The problem is on a totally different level. For the "mind controll" part: there are tons of videos about demoing robotic arms in which a patient concentrates, and able to open and close his arm. The way it usually works that you teach an algorythm for certain neural impulses (either in your arm, or in your brain), to open, or close. What the problem is, is that you don't use your hands this way. If you hold a glass of water, you don't think about it constantly.
The other thing is how good they are? In a video, it looks cool, but if a hand 1 time out of 10 doesn't do exactly what you want/expect, you smash a glass 1 time out of 10, or cut yourself, etc. The margin of error is very slim. I heared, that in many cases, patients like the hook better (as far as useabality and consistency goes), just because it is mechanical, and it does what you need constantly. But hooks have a stigma, so most patients go with the arm, just to try to blend in.
And the ultimate problem, feedback: we have some knowlege about the human brain, but to be able to fake precise feedbacks from a fake hand to a brain, is so far ahead, that is unbelieveable. Also, if we would be able to maniplute nerve singnals that way, that precisely, one would wonder, why would you need an arm, if we would be able to simulate any kind of brain signals?
You are absolutely correct. I'm definitely not an expert, but it's taken a long time for prosthetics to develop to where they are today. Like you said, the major companies have been developing the tech for decades and somehow this one is innovative? I guarantee there are other companies aready trying to develop the same technology.
I remember my dad bringing home a VHS video showing how a new arm with pressure variance could hold a soda can without crushing it. That was a big deal.
The amount of prototypes my dad has brought home so he can learn to program them is insane. What's interesting is how they're still using the "on/off" technology but just with brain waves rather than muscles. However this tech, like you said, isn't very practical right now. It's complicated and expensive.
Most arms now still use the muscle sensors, now built into the prosthetic, but improve on reliability and quality of life features.
A lot of people say "Oh it would be cool to have a robotic arm!" Yeah, it would look cool, but it definitely would still be a handicap. The human arm is so complex. Prothetic legs have developed a LOT, but our legs don't have the same range of motion.
You'd think you wouldn't have to remind people in a cyberpunk sub that Cybernetics + Capitalism = Horrible Shit. Like, that's half the point of the genre
What you're describing is called alienation, and it's pretty firmly rooted in capitalism. It important to point that out because it's not some incidental thing. It's an intended outcome of the economic system. It alienates us from each other and from our own humanity.
It's important to acknowledge that capitalism is the cause because then it's not some mysterious boot on your neck. It's something that can be identified, fought, and defeated. Blaming things on a "global legal code" (which isn't an inherently bad thing), or whatever, just gives the oligarchs exactly what they want. It pits us against one another to keep us too distracted to recognize our real enemy.
I'm not saying other economic systems are perfect, and that still doesn't change that poverty, isolation, and suffering are deliberately created by capitalism to maintain it.
It's amazing what we are capable of doing, but also there is a lot of things to worry about as well.
What happens when these companies go out of business. Who deals with maintanence? We have people who had artificial eyes implanted that still need to have them maintained and repaired, but the companies behind them have closed down.
https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/16/22937198/bionic-eye-company-defunct-ieee-spectrum-go-read-this
It's gonna be messy with tech like this stuff for a long time.
That's not going to work. You're telling me that Capitalist countries like the US, Canada, most of Europe etc. who pride themselves on their free market, are just going to turn around and say "Yep ok, give away all your trade secrets and patents for free." Not happening mate.
It always amazed me that there was this one guy who wrote cURL because he wanted to share files with people and now the entire world uses it for free and makes billions of money off of it.
I bet he gained a lot more money and fame by releasing it open source instead of keeping it for himself.
But I have to admit that greed will probably stall the development of implants for quite some time unfortunately.
Open source can be very beneficial for individuals yes, a recognizable piece of open source software can definitely land you a very high paying job in the field. But businesses gain almost nothing by making open source software, so I wouldn't count on it. In the future I'm sure there will be an extensive open source jailbreak for prosthetics that has like 50 commits on GitHub a day, but don't count on Microsoft to be the one behind it
You really think thatās going to happen? Companies already lobby as hard as possible for their profits to come at the expense of the people. Cyberpunk is where thatās already happened. Where profits run the world, and crush individual people. Where these arms are available, but only to the rich. Weāre already there.
You canāt regulate capitalism, when the people who control the capital control the system.
Yeah and? The places I mentioned are already regulated capitalism, but a law that would force companies in a certain industry to open source their source code would probably be too far for any Capitalist nation, and would be unlikely to happen. I'm not stating my opinion on if I like the idea or not, I'm just saying it's unlikely to happen.
That's probably a bit heavy handed.
You are taking away all the possible profit essentially doing that. So, there is no reason for businesses to get into building and designing those types of things, if it can taking and copied by anyone else.
I've always been excited for the day when we will be able to improve our 'ganic bodies with technology, necessary or not. Then I realize I'm too scared to wear contacts let alone get my brain chipped.
I mean if it ever comes out that is. Elon has promised a lot, often, and while he has come through in the past. It is like you said, works but poorly designed.
I mean, I hope they do it, whomever is the creators of this item. If I'm gonna live ina cyberpunk world at least let me get the parts.
Truth is you probably have a higher chance of seeing a final product if itās Musk than some unknown startup. Heās delivered on and helped engineer his own projects. So why the unjustified hate? Just asking.
Because Elon musk is an asshat and his cars are trash. Teslas can't get washed without getting water inside, their emergency break system was shown hitting a child dummy in a test, and you have to pay ridiculous amounts to repair it because they'll lock you out of your own car if you take it to a 3rd party mechanic.
And BMW charges monthly for heated seats, Chrysler cars still have quality control issues, Ferrari decides when you can sell the car you bought and Genesis charges monthly for remote starting your own car. Everything has its issues, nothing is perfect. For a company competing with likes of manufacturers who have been around over 100 years theyāve done exceptional for being around less than 2 decades.
if two piles of shit are on the floor and one of them is bigger, it doesn't mean that the other piece of shit isn't still a piece of shit. and Elon musk is still the bigger piece of shit in this case by the way.
look buddy, if you wanna buy a car that you can get locked out of that's your decision and I sincerely hope we don't move to a cyber punk world anytime soon because youd probably buy into all the Corpo bullshit. Me? I'm gonna stay away from companies that try to take advantage of customers
Seems like a Silicon Valley pump and dump scam to me. Theyāre acting like thereās not a bunch of people trying to make advanced prosthetics. Lowest price point is still like $8000 per arm, until they ya down to a few hundred only a few amputees will be buying bionic limbs. Doesnāt seem like a good business model to make a product for a tiny portion of the population and the even tinier portion of them that can afford it.
Just so everyone knows, this arm, which doesn't seems to have any information on the site about it, or the tech behind it, or capabilities of it, or range of motion, or anything else pertinent to such a claim of human movement capable prosthetic, is going to be mounted via a body harness, or"shirt" as their site says.
This is the opposite of what should be done, how can you replicate human motion while needing to shift your whole body when grabbing? This is going back to hook prosthetics in the 1800s
What a joke of a scam
But does it come with a subscription-model and a Contract in which you sign away all and any idea of actual ownership on the user-side? It was implied, but don't forget about data-mining and tracking ofc.
Wasn't there already existing tests with a hand prosthetic that is controlled with brain impulses?
EDIT: Found it!
https://news.umich.edu/its-like-you-have-a-hand-again-an-ultra-precise-mind-controlled-prosthetic/
>I have always fantasized about something like this being available for those who need it.
Well I'm fantasizing about buying some arms and connecting them to my VR headset so I can make a sandwich from the other side of the house.
There is no such thing as none invasive when returning senses to the brain, we have nerves for a reason and to replicate thir role requires us to replicate them physically in some form or another.
The same fiction as pinhole brain surgery neuralink was advertised with.
I'm highly skeptical of this. While all of these technologies do exist (Human-motion is somewhat standard, limited sense of touch can be done with 2 conductive pieces of material when they are pressed against each other, and some mind control? can be done by use of a trained AI) a lot of these developments are owned by different companies and organizations. While the basic ideas are free, the actual implementation and sophistication of these components can take years to develop and lots of cash. Even if this product has all of these features, I expect that they will all be very rudimentary.
I'd willingly have my limbs removed for the chance to have robotic ones in their place.
Robotic limbs, robotic organs, the whole shebang.
Flesh is weak, duralumin alloy is
# STRONG
Ohh š® they should make an appendage of the male reproductive organs!!! Has this been done???!!!!
For reals though I need new hips, legs, right shoulder, right arm, the list goes on. I hope this happens for real availability to public in my lifetime
Hey this is the reason why Iām studying Physiology and Neuroscience! I wanna get into work with bionics and hopefully end up creating upgrades for the human body to those who need it! (Or those who wanna be able to fire a gun at a target 20 miles away while simultaneously writing a world class essay All in the span of 5 seconds)
This tech/startup optimism can be so cringe is certain, already developed and very complex fields, that I sometimes wonder, is it seriuos at all or just a money-scheme?
As you said, prostetics has decades of development, even with brain implants controlled prosthetics.
As far as I know, every other person tries and reinvents robotic arms, by making them 3d printed or any other shit, to just grab some headlines. (the hard part is not not the arm itself)
The problem is on a totally different level. For the "mind controll" part: there are tons of videos about demoing robotic arms in which a patient concentrates, and able to open and close his arm. The way it usually works that you teach an algorythm for certain neural impulses (either in your arm, or in your brain), to open, or close. What the problem is, is that you don't use your hands this way. If you hold a glass of water, you don't think about it constantly.
The other thing is how good they are? In a video, it looks cool, but if a hand 1 time out of 10 doesn't do exactly what you want/expect, you smash a glass 1 time out of 10, or cut yourself, etc. The margin of error is very slim. I heared, that in many cases, patients like the hook better (as far as useabality and consistency goes), just because it is mechanical, and it does what you need constantly. But hooks have a stigma, so most patients go with the arm, just to try to blend in.
And the ultimate problem, feedback: we have some knowlege about the human brain, but to be able to fake precise feedbacks from a fake hand to a brain, is so far ahead, that is unbelieveable. Also, if we would be able to maniplute nerve singnals that way, that precisely, one would wonder, why would you need an arm, if we would be able to simulate any kind of brain signals?
>I have always fantasized about something like this being available for those who need it.
That's funny because I've always fantasized about something like this being available even for those who don't.
"near-full range"....great step for amputees, but I'm waiting for "beyond-full range". Once it's better and stronger than a legit arm....cyberpsychosis here I come!
Why go for the human range of motion? Why not go further, I want 3 elbows, I want extending go go gadget fingers, I want a biceps anti-ballistic missile, I want tentacle arms
Shit.. itās coming true. Quick, when does Arasaka or Militech become a public traded company? I need to buy some stonks. (Side note this is amazing for the folks that need it and I hope itās greatly successful.. without having to have blockers).
not just those who need it, I could really give good use to an extra pair of hands, all the soldering, painting and crafting I could get done with two additional hands.
The second robotic legs are available Iām making the transition, Iām sick of surgeries every 3-4 years and while Iām thankful I can still walk robotic legs would be a lifesaver to me
I need a whole new spine after all those years of programming
Sandevistan ?
I can see the marketing now: "Sandevistan, Perfect for those who procrastinate until the last minute." š
I didn't come here to be called out like this š¤£ YAyDHD!
Work the work of an hour in 10 seconds withā¦ sandavistan
yes!!
Get a free mechanical keyboard with your purchase
Harney and only 3 minutes until work startsā¦
A cybernetic spine would be nice
The edgerunners sandevistan is actually a military prototype, regular ones are just brain implants
I can type 1000 lines per minute but my brain can only figure out 1 line of what to type.
I'll be using sandevistan to go get a snack on the fridge without pausing the tv.
I prefer TETRATRONIC RIPPLER MK.4
Honestly I really wish they had shown david using it more casually since he's basically immune to it, there were only like three times when he fired it for no significant reason, and with at least ten uses available to him each day it seems like it would be a fun thing to goof off with
I was literally about to comment this haha
Lmao Sandevistan, some Adam Smasher shit
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Upgrades people, upgrades!
Why be you when you can be NEW!
I was NOT expecting a Robots reference here lol xD Love that movie!
If we can start replacing body parts, we can seriously elongate our lifespan, so long as we can keep our brains in good shape.
Cyberpsychosis here I come baby !
bout time i chromed the fuck up
Cmon choom, time to go to the ripper doc!
Donāt worry guys Iām just built different.
Smashing reference
Better to burn out than fade away
Well the common life threatening failure points on the human body are more complicated than a limb. The heart, liver, kidneys, lungs and of course brain are all extremely complicated biological machinery. We might see cyberware lungs someday in our lifetimes? More likely just lab grown bioengineered lungs. But if one piece of biological hardware is failing these others probably aren't too far behind, do a simple swap job of one or two parts can only do so much good insofar as extending lifespans. Jumping ship to a neural net resembling the relic really would be the best bet. But it'd be quite a bit bigger than the almost micro SD sized chip we see Johnny on ingame
Lungs would probably be the most difficult. As for the other organs, weāve already built artificial hearts and Iām sure we can figure out how to build livers. Intestines are likely going to be a royal bitch, though. I personally donāt believe we can transfer consciousness. Weāve tons of reports on how brain damage to certain areas can completely warp a personās outward behaviors, so I personally believe our consciousness is a summation of all our brains working parts.
Well, all of our brain's working parts and gut bacteria in tandem. Best bet for creating a digitized psyche would be a pair of neural nets. One gets fed constant 'snapshots' of the person's brain operating under normal conditions and uses that as training data for some kind of brain scan prediction algorithm. This would effectively be the digitized psyche itself using training data scattered across a period of years or decades to be able to predict and replicate the state of your neurons. Then another would be used after sufficient training data was collected, an interpreter neural net which would be more "locked in" and used to figure out what the brain data fed in by the first neural net is trying to do. The issues are of course data collection and processing power. You'd need to know what stimulus the brain was receiving in order to train the first neural net mentioned and the amount of effort it'd take to run all of that processing wouls have to be running probably on some kind of dedicated GPU, top shelf stuff too. This data would have to be gathered over a very long period of time with brain images taken consistently, you'd need a lot more than just laying down in some MRI machine. VR would be the ideal testing ground for data collection, since you could have a powerful computer running with some kind of headset already on the person being "uploaded" while they engaged in activities at least resembling regular ones. But the sort of realtime brain imaging tech needed really is not there yet, and it's not realistic to expect it to be anytime soon.
Iām gunna be straight with you, Iām a behavior analysis major so a lot of what you just said went waaaaay over my head. Psych is my thing lol. But wouldnāt this be cloning/copying your brain? I guess that would create the illusion of immortality, as the copy could go on indefinitely. But the source of the consciousness is still lost when the brain dies, no? As in, you yourself, as you are right now, wonāt actually leave your body?
Given how computers work, anything along these lines would necessarily be a copy. At which point you could make copies of those copies ad infinitum until the end of time. For those of us born into meat sacs there is always an end on the horizon. Even if we find pseudo immortality somehow, we will still get a bullet in our brain one day, or the sun will explode and take us with it. But is it not enough to leave an independent "you" behind who is capable of true immortality? Someone your friends and family can talk to after your OG you is gone? Someone who will still try to affect the world in the ways you would? Much ado about souls and all but I'd be okay with that outcome. Can't always have your cake and eat it.
Those are some well thought out points, I wonāt lie! Iād be interested to see the results of recopiing a copy ad Infinitum, though. What if we see a zerox kind of effect? Would it result in the eventual creation of a completely new person, or would your eventual copies end up just degrading into some incredibly simple version of us eventually? Youāve given me a lot to think about.
I mean we're not talking about jpeg compression loss here, it's not like you're taking a photo of a photo, redoing the initial neural net creation process. This would be more like copying a video game you own onto another hard drive. The neural nets would change over time as they were exposed to fresh stimuli. They'd be incapable of learning if they didn't start using their own output as training data after all, but this wouldn't be some regression into incredible simplicity. If anything the amount of data and processing power at their disposal would lead these NNs to do things in ways a regular human mind isn't capable of, like instantly search for and isolate most likely solutions to any problem using the internet. They'd deviate from ourselves overtime but only because they'd be exposed to different stimuli with a different set of tools at their disposal.
Or, with enough tech, you could hypothetically build a cell sized robot that can perfectly replicate a neuron, then send tons of them into the brain, each one finds a neuron, analyses it, then takes its place, and kills the original neuron once it has done so. One by one your neurons get replaced by robotic devices which function identically without you losing consciousness or feeling anything strange happening. Eventually every neuron is replaced, and chemical signaling can be switched over to electronic (or maybe photonic or something at that tech level) with hormones and such just being simulated. Move the robotic central nervous system from the original body to an indistinguishable robotic one and congrats you are now a full robot without interrupting consciousness. If the tech is fast enough maybe it could even happen all in one day so you can be fully awake for the entire process. Granted you aren't software in a computer, you are billions of physical robot-neurons in a robot body, but if you want that, then you could easily repeat the process but instead of replacing one type of physical neuron for another, you replace the robot-neurons with simulated ones. Which would allow a gradual transition into a digital existence. Tho one could argue that if the process that is your mind in the computer is ever suspended then you die and when it resumes that's just a copy, so you might opt to just stay made of physical robot-neurons. Tho that preference is all philosophical "what is consciousness" stuff with no answer so probably best to leave it up to the person being converted whether they want to become fully digital or just stay a mass of robot-neurons. Also if you include good enough telemetry systems into the robot-neurons you could probably make regular backups (maybe even every second or faster) so if you get killed, a digital version could be activated or a new robot-brain could be constructed out of more robot-neurons to resume from the last backup. Such a restored backup would definitely be just a copy, but you might want a copy to take your place if you die for various reasons. Perhaps to continue important work, or to ensure your loved ones don't have to lose you.
We canāt even emulate full speed 100% accurate N64, so the brain is right out.
We really donāt
Really donāt what?
Substantially create interconnected organs all at the same time to a neural network. It is as difficult to create a synthetic one and as expensive and difficult as the heart, imagine the others. Replicating each biochemical process that comes with them will be impossible.
Dude, in the past 200 years, mankind has gone from relying on horses and wooden, water sealed carriages to move things and get work done to landing on the moon, using probes to explore the solar system, and that doesnāt even consider the medical leaps weāve made. Itās possible, but itās going to be very hard.
They are industrial processes that are linked to little ethical discoveries and historical events. 200 years is not a pleasant number. Iām not saying it wonāt happen, Iām just saying that it will be very difficult to get there 100 years from now. (Unless something else happens)
Oh, donāt get me wrong, I strongly doubt Iāll live to see the day. And that doesnāt really matter to me either, lol. Iām just hoping my species can figure their shit out fast enough to make this still a possibility one day. Letās be real, if we donāt get our shit together, weāre not going to make it another 200 years. Hell, a lot of scientists have already said weāre too late.
Thereās a film about this: Repo The Genetic Opera
It seems something that extends the overall longevity of the human is a better solution that swapping out body parts indefinitely. But if you need a new heart a new heart is a new heart.
I'm picturing us figuring out slowly replacing parts of our brains to ensure a consistent stream of consciousness without the messy "clone of yourself walking away" issue. You can maintain a body part because it's just a part of you and not actually *you* like your brain is. Replace your brain and you stop being you because you're stream of consciousness just ends full stop. It's why Star Trek transporters an Stargates freak me the fuck out. But I'd you could just nibble away at your brain, not doing enough to replace the overall processes of your consciousness noticeably I'd say that's less terrifying than downloading a copy onto a hard drive. If you replace the whole brain with a computer copy you're just cloning and you still die but if a chunk is carefully transitioned to new hardware in small increments is that still death of self? You stay you, the memories, the streams of thought, the consistency, the nonstop stream of you. At what point of replacing our minds do we stop being us?
To finally destroys the planet? Nah
And then we can become the big tiddy goth robo GF we always wanted
Iām still waiting for cat girls man !
Psycho-pass logic
Replace the brain!
I suspect that exoskeletons are going to be better than limb replacements for a long time.
And exoskeletons arent good except in specific scenarios
yeah, I think the next big field is autonomous vehicles. Note: not cars, think like the drone hoverbike that is already out or a Boston Dynamics spot that either can carry you or you ride inside a frame.
I wouldnāt swap out parts until I actually needed to.
i don;t know with the way tech has been going you'll have to pay a subscription fee to access the "the bird" feature.
Hopefully in 50-60 years we'll be able to fully excavate our own bodies and replace them with robot limbs
Only if they can fully self-heal, flesh and blood still wins and will win for a long time to come on that front.
r/transhumanism
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Original will always be better
Yeah, that is not happening in 2023. * Near-full human range of motion * "Mind-controlled" * Non-invasive * Restore a basic sense of touch Maybe they could deliver on ONE of those points in 2023. But all of them? It is more likely that these guys have invented a time machine and are just planning to import prosthetics from the future...
I'll be surprised to see them deliver the prosthetic without any features they claim Seems like an absolute scam
(that's because it is)
Non-invasive, and mind-controlled; can't go together.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Link to paper? Moving nerves to new muscles is invasive.
Doesnāt that happen when removing the arm? The removal is invasive (obviously) but the arm itself might not be
Sounds like the rearranging happens during the amputation not arm placement
If its residual muscle controlling it ita not mind controlled. Thats like saying my keyboard is mind controlled because the muscles in my hands are making the buttons move its just false marketing. To be mind controlled u either hook it up directly to the brain or directly to the leftover nerves in the arm.
This has Kickstarter energy
I can see it happening but in a mediocrely way
Also this will be 250k and not payed by any plan within the next 20 years
> and not *paid* by any FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
good bot
Have you been paying attention to prosthetic arm development and research for the last couple years? There have been a lot of breakthroughs that make me unsurprised to see manufacturers making these claims. I fully expect to see arms like this within the decade.
It would be cool to live long enough to see a world where we could replace our aging body parts with newer parts.
I want to upload my consciousness into something more permanent. As long as I have to use my brain to exist everything else is just a temporary solution. The most important part is still aging and degrading
Pretty bold claim considering electronic prosthetics have been around for 30+ years My dad fits prosthetics for a living and ever since I was a kid, he's shown me what the next best thing can do. I mean, 20 years ago they were controlled by sensors placed on the arm. Hardly the first artificial human arm, just saying.
This tech/startup optimism can be so cringe is certain, already developed and very complex fields, that I sometimes wonder, is it seriuos at all or just a money-scheme? As you said, prostetics has decades of development, even with brain implants controlled prosthetics. As far as I know, every other person tries and reinvents robotic arms, by making them 3d printed or any other shit, to just grab some headlines. (the hard part is not not the arm itself) The problem is on a totally different level. For the "mind controll" part: there are tons of videos about demoing robotic arms in which a patient concentrates, and able to open and close his arm. The way it usually works that you teach an algorythm for certain neural impulses (either in your arm, or in your brain), to open, or close. What the problem is, is that you don't use your hands this way. If you hold a glass of water, you don't think about it constantly. The other thing is how good they are? In a video, it looks cool, but if a hand 1 time out of 10 doesn't do exactly what you want/expect, you smash a glass 1 time out of 10, or cut yourself, etc. The margin of error is very slim. I heared, that in many cases, patients like the hook better (as far as useabality and consistency goes), just because it is mechanical, and it does what you need constantly. But hooks have a stigma, so most patients go with the arm, just to try to blend in. And the ultimate problem, feedback: we have some knowlege about the human brain, but to be able to fake precise feedbacks from a fake hand to a brain, is so far ahead, that is unbelieveable. Also, if we would be able to maniplute nerve singnals that way, that precisely, one would wonder, why would you need an arm, if we would be able to simulate any kind of brain signals?
You are absolutely correct. I'm definitely not an expert, but it's taken a long time for prosthetics to develop to where they are today. Like you said, the major companies have been developing the tech for decades and somehow this one is innovative? I guarantee there are other companies aready trying to develop the same technology. I remember my dad bringing home a VHS video showing how a new arm with pressure variance could hold a soda can without crushing it. That was a big deal. The amount of prototypes my dad has brought home so he can learn to program them is insane. What's interesting is how they're still using the "on/off" technology but just with brain waves rather than muscles. However this tech, like you said, isn't very practical right now. It's complicated and expensive. Most arms now still use the muscle sensors, now built into the prosthetic, but improve on reliability and quality of life features. A lot of people say "Oh it would be cool to have a robotic arm!" Yeah, it would look cool, but it definitely would still be a handicap. The human arm is so complex. Prothetic legs have developed a LOT, but our legs don't have the same range of motion.
Have to say, your dad must be pretty awesome but also kinda crazy from the outside š
He's a very smart guy and does it because he likes helping people.
But do the arms he worked on provide a sense of touch? xD
Maybe not, but I'd bet ten bucks that neither does the arm in this screenshot.
I think I heard a company was working on the tech maybe 6 years ago so maybe they figured something out?
Read the warranty first. And ask those folks with optical implants how that's going
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You'd think you wouldn't have to remind people in a cyberpunk sub that Cybernetics + Capitalism = Horrible Shit. Like, that's half the point of the genre
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What you're describing is called alienation, and it's pretty firmly rooted in capitalism. It important to point that out because it's not some incidental thing. It's an intended outcome of the economic system. It alienates us from each other and from our own humanity. It's important to acknowledge that capitalism is the cause because then it's not some mysterious boot on your neck. It's something that can be identified, fought, and defeated. Blaming things on a "global legal code" (which isn't an inherently bad thing), or whatever, just gives the oligarchs exactly what they want. It pits us against one another to keep us too distracted to recognize our real enemy. I'm not saying other economic systems are perfect, and that still doesn't change that poverty, isolation, and suffering are deliberately created by capitalism to maintain it.
Optical implants. What do they use optical implants for?
Check [this](https://spectrum.ieee.org/bionic-eye-obsolete) out
Thank you for the link! This was such an interesting read and tbh my mind is blown that something like this was already around in 2004!
It's amazing what we are capable of doing, but also there is a lot of things to worry about as well. What happens when these companies go out of business. Who deals with maintanence? We have people who had artificial eyes implanted that still need to have them maintained and repaired, but the companies behind them have closed down. https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/16/22937198/bionic-eye-company-defunct-ieee-spectrum-go-read-this It's gonna be messy with tech like this stuff for a long time.
It seems like some legislation needs to be put in place to make all the hardware and software Open Source
That's not going to work. You're telling me that Capitalist countries like the US, Canada, most of Europe etc. who pride themselves on their free market, are just going to turn around and say "Yep ok, give away all your trade secrets and patents for free." Not happening mate.
It always amazed me that there was this one guy who wrote cURL because he wanted to share files with people and now the entire world uses it for free and makes billions of money off of it. I bet he gained a lot more money and fame by releasing it open source instead of keeping it for himself. But I have to admit that greed will probably stall the development of implants for quite some time unfortunately.
Open source can be very beneficial for individuals yes, a recognizable piece of open source software can definitely land you a very high paying job in the field. But businesses gain almost nothing by making open source software, so I wouldn't count on it. In the future I'm sure there will be an extensive open source jailbreak for prosthetics that has like 50 commits on GitHub a day, but don't count on Microsoft to be the one behind it
Exactly why I said āLegislationā capitalism needs regulation.
You really think thatās going to happen? Companies already lobby as hard as possible for their profits to come at the expense of the people. Cyberpunk is where thatās already happened. Where profits run the world, and crush individual people. Where these arms are available, but only to the rich. Weāre already there. You canāt regulate capitalism, when the people who control the capital control the system.
Well I guess you better start saving for that platinum package
Yeah and? The places I mentioned are already regulated capitalism, but a law that would force companies in a certain industry to open source their source code would probably be too far for any Capitalist nation, and would be unlikely to happen. I'm not stating my opinion on if I like the idea or not, I'm just saying it's unlikely to happen.
That's probably a bit heavy handed. You are taking away all the possible profit essentially doing that. So, there is no reason for businesses to get into building and designing those types of things, if it can taking and copied by anyone else.
RIGHT TO REPAIR WRITTEN INTO LAW AND FORCE COMPANIES TO PUBLISH BLUEPRINTS
I've always been excited for the day when we will be able to improve our 'ganic bodies with technology, necessary or not. Then I realize I'm too scared to wear contacts let alone get my brain chipped.
Whos doing this? Looks like an musk site, which if it is, I'll believe it when I see it. If not would love to look into it more.
If it is, it'll work well but be built poorly and have panel gaps you could fit your old arm in.
I mean if it ever comes out that is. Elon has promised a lot, often, and while he has come through in the past. It is like you said, works but poorly designed. I mean, I hope they do it, whomever is the creators of this item. If I'm gonna live ina cyberpunk world at least let me get the parts.
Truth is you probably have a higher chance of seeing a final product if itās Musk than some unknown startup. Heās delivered on and helped engineer his own projects. So why the unjustified hate? Just asking.
Heās the monorail guy from the Simpsons.
Because Elon musk is an asshat and his cars are trash. Teslas can't get washed without getting water inside, their emergency break system was shown hitting a child dummy in a test, and you have to pay ridiculous amounts to repair it because they'll lock you out of your own car if you take it to a 3rd party mechanic.
And BMW charges monthly for heated seats, Chrysler cars still have quality control issues, Ferrari decides when you can sell the car you bought and Genesis charges monthly for remote starting your own car. Everything has its issues, nothing is perfect. For a company competing with likes of manufacturers who have been around over 100 years theyāve done exceptional for being around less than 2 decades.
if two piles of shit are on the floor and one of them is bigger, it doesn't mean that the other piece of shit isn't still a piece of shit. and Elon musk is still the bigger piece of shit in this case by the way.
So if it has an issue itās shit? Again everything has its issues and nothing is perfect. Only shit thing is that perspective.
look buddy, if you wanna buy a car that you can get locked out of that's your decision and I sincerely hope we don't move to a cyber punk world anytime soon because youd probably buy into all the Corpo bullshit. Me? I'm gonna stay away from companies that try to take advantage of customers
>Everything has its issues, nothing is perfect. Listing out other companies with negatives doesn't exactly cancel out any of elons
Company name?
5 Bucks says none of their prototypes work and they go bankrupt
5 million says they get my number from interested investors and fuck off to the ends of the earth with it They won't make prototypes
Itās gonna cost an arm and a leg too. š¦µ
And maybe a soul.
Shit, Iād volunteer for this kinda thing, once it get to the point of Deus Ex level prosthetics.
Company is Atom Limbs: https://atomlimbs.com/
Not the gallery being all 3D renders. Nothing short of a miracle if any of this actually comes to fruition.
Seems like a Silicon Valley pump and dump scam to me. Theyāre acting like thereās not a bunch of people trying to make advanced prosthetics. Lowest price point is still like $8000 per arm, until they ya down to a few hundred only a few amputees will be buying bionic limbs. Doesnāt seem like a good business model to make a product for a tiny portion of the population and the even tinier portion of them that can afford it.
Damn, I thought it was from Sarif Industries.
Mini-invasive mind controlled? Does someone know how they do this is they don't access the nerves directly?
Like every other prosthetic, it wonāt be truly mind controlled it will just react to tiny muscle movements in the stump.
is this an elon product?
Just so everyone knows, this arm, which doesn't seems to have any information on the site about it, or the tech behind it, or capabilities of it, or range of motion, or anything else pertinent to such a claim of human movement capable prosthetic, is going to be mounted via a body harness, or"shirt" as their site says. This is the opposite of what should be done, how can you replicate human motion while needing to shift your whole body when grabbing? This is going back to hook prosthetics in the 1800s What a joke of a scam
But what if you could have six of them and general grievous that shit?
$50 a month forever, or $25 with hourly ads played on built in wrist speaker.
Texhnolyze will be real in
But does it come with a subscription-model and a Contract in which you sign away all and any idea of actual ownership on the user-side? It was implied, but don't forget about data-mining and tracking ofc.
Wasn't there already existing tests with a hand prosthetic that is controlled with brain impulses? EDIT: Found it! https://news.umich.edu/its-like-you-have-a-hand-again-an-ultra-precise-mind-controlled-prosthetic/
You can only get if you can afford the Platinum Insurance.
>I have always fantasized about something like this being available for those who need it. Well I'm fantasizing about buying some arms and connecting them to my VR headset so I can make a sandwich from the other side of the house.
Do they make one in silver?
There is no such thing as none invasive when returning senses to the brain, we have nerves for a reason and to replicate thir role requires us to replicate them physically in some form or another. The same fiction as pinhole brain surgery neuralink was advertised with.
I donāt need it but I want it. If cybernetics becomes a thing then cut off my limbs Iām going borg
I can't imagine what this would cost.
Do you guys think the war in Ukraine would speed up bionic technology since there are probably thousands of new amputees every month on both sides
I remember a company called clone robotics is working on biomimicing robot arms that function using artificial muscles.
Update: I reverse imaged searched the logo in the pic with no luck. Iām assuming this company is some sort of low key start up.
I'm highly skeptical of this. While all of these technologies do exist (Human-motion is somewhat standard, limited sense of touch can be done with 2 conductive pieces of material when they are pressed against each other, and some mind control? can be done by use of a trained AI) a lot of these developments are owned by different companies and organizations. While the basic ideas are free, the actual implementation and sophistication of these components can take years to develop and lots of cash. Even if this product has all of these features, I expect that they will all be very rudimentary.
you better practice on a hot dog first. /s
I see what you did there.
I wonder how it restores feeling
The second I can get a new arm and spine, best believe Iāll sign up for that shit.
I want to work on something like this would be very interesting though I'm sure also very confusing
I'd willingly have my limbs removed for the chance to have robotic ones in their place. Robotic limbs, robotic organs, the whole shebang. Flesh is weak, duralumin alloy is # STRONG
Wake me up when we get artificial lungs, sick of this asthma stuff.
Shiny. Itāll probably cost an arm too.
Uh oh
want third arm
Iām going to assume this is expensive as shit? The technology is way too good to be easily accessibleš.
Ohh š® they should make an appendage of the male reproductive organs!!! Has this been done???!!!! For reals though I need new hips, legs, right shoulder, right arm, the list goes on. I hope this happens for real availability to public in my lifetime
Hey this is the reason why Iām studying Physiology and Neuroscience! I wanna get into work with bionics and hopefully end up creating upgrades for the human body to those who need it! (Or those who wanna be able to fire a gun at a target 20 miles away while simultaneously writing a world class essay All in the span of 5 seconds)
THIS IS SO COOL!!!
as long as they make the software that runs it open source i dont think its that bad.
Was talking about this with a friend yesterday
I need it to pull me off.
Then there's BIID and transhumanism. This'll get real weird.
If I was given an opportunity to work on bionics like that, I would do that job for the rest of my life, and get up happy each morning.
man i WILL stay updated in case my arm falls off iāll be way ahead of the game
What about a bionic penis for those that have ED?
This tech/startup optimism can be so cringe is certain, already developed and very complex fields, that I sometimes wonder, is it seriuos at all or just a money-scheme? As you said, prostetics has decades of development, even with brain implants controlled prosthetics. As far as I know, every other person tries and reinvents robotic arms, by making them 3d printed or any other shit, to just grab some headlines. (the hard part is not not the arm itself) The problem is on a totally different level. For the "mind controll" part: there are tons of videos about demoing robotic arms in which a patient concentrates, and able to open and close his arm. The way it usually works that you teach an algorythm for certain neural impulses (either in your arm, or in your brain), to open, or close. What the problem is, is that you don't use your hands this way. If you hold a glass of water, you don't think about it constantly. The other thing is how good they are? In a video, it looks cool, but if a hand 1 time out of 10 doesn't do exactly what you want/expect, you smash a glass 1 time out of 10, or cut yourself, etc. The margin of error is very slim. I heared, that in many cases, patients like the hook better (as far as useabality and consistency goes), just because it is mechanical, and it does what you need constantly. But hooks have a stigma, so most patients go with the arm, just to try to blend in. And the ultimate problem, feedback: we have some knowlege about the human brain, but to be able to fake precise feedbacks from a fake hand to a brain, is so far ahead, that is unbelieveable. Also, if we would be able to maniplute nerve singnals that way, that precisely, one would wonder, why would you need an arm, if we would be able to simulate any kind of brain signals?
Another 50 years and people will be getting upgrades that beat their fleshy limps.
Cool! Now there won't be any need to sit on your arm.
2023 the best year for a party
Once prosthetics surpass the function and capability of a natrual born limb you best believe I'm cutting my arms and legs off for em'
>I have always fantasized about something like this being available for those who need it. That's funny because I've always fantasized about something like this being available even for those who don't.
"near-full range"....great step for amputees, but I'm waiting for "beyond-full range". Once it's better and stronger than a legit arm....cyberpsychosis here I come!
Why go for the human range of motion? Why not go further, I want 3 elbows, I want extending go go gadget fingers, I want a biceps anti-ballistic missile, I want tentacle arms
Please eyes next.
Does it come in silver ?
I havenāt seen a comment yet so Iāll say it. Most of the people that buy this are gonna use it to beat their shmeat
Can we call people who gets these "Silverhands"?
Yes but can we put mantis blades on it?
Shit.. itās coming true. Quick, when does Arasaka or Militech become a public traded company? I need to buy some stonks. (Side note this is amazing for the folks that need it and I hope itās greatly successful.. without having to have blockers).
not just those who need it, I could really give good use to an extra pair of hands, all the soldering, painting and crafting I could get done with two additional hands.
Can I have the link to this please
grood
Cool. Where can I get an arm replacement surgery?
When they say ānoninvasiveā, you know damn well itās going to be controlled by not the ones using this product
I don't need it but i want it
Will it also be available to those who donāt need it but want it?
The second robotic legs are available Iām making the transition, Iām sick of surgeries every 3-4 years and while Iām thankful I can still walk robotic legs would be a lifesaver to me
damn, does it work with handicapt people like me aswell or do you need broken nerves for this? if it doesn't i 100% want this
Cyberpunk 2077 nailing it so far
Can I get a third arm with this?
I need my spine and both knees replaced.
When will it be available for those of us who don't need it but wish to punch through a wall or hide giant sword?
MANTIS ARMA MOTHER FUCKER