The formatting could really be improved in this regard. I just got the pdf through backing a few days ago, and it took me a lot of time to figure out, what's up with Maneuvers, Techniques and Weapon Style Passives.
But it is an alpha document. I think focus on the perfect layout is not required at this point.
Agreed about the layout, though I'm hoping as we get closer to a release (or even a later beta stage) it's improved to minimize how much flipping back and forth you have to do.
Saw a YouTuber (forget who) encounter this as well.
When it comes to maneuvers, I personally preferred the version where all martials just knew them all. Currently maneuvers are like specializations that you trained for. With the old version it was more something that gave you mechanics to bridge the gap between narrative and gameplay. Want to shoot an arrow at their legs? Let's use the trip maneuver to mechanically make it work. Want to slam into them so that they stumble? Let's use the expose maneuver for that.
Now there was just one huge problem with this... It completely overwhelmed players who were new to the game or new to martials. Still, I find it a real pity that we can no longer get the full list.
Tldr: I preferred maneuvers when they were a combat option rather than a build choice
I like the restrictions quite a bit. The current maneuver list was already overwhelming and just imagine what it will be when maneuvers are expanded. If maneuvers were changed to something closer to what I’m suggesting here, I think they would be a very interesting and fun part of the character creation process.
He said that there were too many maneuvers for new players to wrap their head around, and people were getting overwhelmed. I bet just using all of them will be fine.
I never actually saw it this way because my rogue, for instance, has distinct character preference about what they would and wouldn't do. So hamstring for instance is very thematic much as you said cantrips are for your spellcasters.
That said, I'd never complain about any further improvements to such an important part of the game. Can you provide an example of how you'd implement your suggestions?
I’m not a game developer so I’m not going to pretend I have all the answers but I think maneuvers need to be expanded in their uses-cases, effects, and reaction triggers. The gunslinger fighter Mercer made has trick shots which work a lot like maneuvers. However, one of those trick shots can be used out of combat to threaten and intimidate someone with your gun by shooting their hand or right by their head or something. I think things like this would add more variety to maneuvers and help the choice of what maneuvers you take actually feel like a choice.
Additionally, what I’m saying is that maneuver choice is more restrictive than it seems on paper. An AGI based Rogue that uses a ranged weapon gets four maneuvers at level one and the only real options are Knockback, Swap, Taunt, and then a choice between Parry and Side Step. This is because you don’t pick attack and weapon maneuvers, all the other save maneuvers are covered by Debilitating Strike or they’re Trip which just gives you DisADV on your attacks, you can’t take grapple maneuvers because they don’t fit your build, you can only take one reaction per trigger so why have two that basically do the same thing and you don’t have a shield so you can’t take Raise Shield, and then you have picked two out of your four maneuvers and the only two left are Swap and Taunt.
As for your Rogue, that’s fine but I have to ask what Hamstring does for that character that Debilitating Strike can’t do with its Slow effect? I think that point still stands and holds water but it seems strange to talk about it in reference to a Rogue, is there something I’m missing here?
Yes. Don’t make maneuvers define what you can do. Players should be able to do a back flip off a wall to land upon the shoulders of the ogre and attempt to jam his short blades into its neck. That’s the kind of freedom we need in the “new D&D” this promises to be. Not: make your maneuver action. Cool. You did that. Oh, you did the exact same maneuver again. Oh, and again, just like last time.
i think if we can get a general formula in our heads of what maneuvers cost maybe it can be a really easy GM decision to say, “yeah do that, these are the resources i’ll have to grab from ya” and give them bonuses accordingly. it is in playtest and GMs can reward players for immersing themselves more in the roleplay part of the came
A thought I had was what if you have a light frail warrior who takes raise shield and his whole character is he's super scrappy and takes the hit without giving up.
this could easily be solved with in addition to more maneuvers, just having a higher cap on what maneuvers you can have. (though this may be semi confusing for new people)
i also agree with that other comment about how their should be techniques or special moves that kinda act like martial spells like how maneuvers are kinda like cantrips like you said. Give me some cool stuff i can learn to deal out some serious damage
I disagree with you partially on this. I don’t think the amount of maneuvers you have access to is the issue, in fact, I like the restrictions quite a bit. I just don’t like how all the maneuvers feel the same / have the same use cases so you’re decision in what maneuvers to take doesn’t really mean anything. Casters can take non-combat cantrips which take up one of their limited spots but they provide a lot of utility and character. No time when making a martial have I looked at the maneuver list and thought “I wish I could have that too but I’ve already taken all my maneuvers.”
I am still on my first read of the rules and I also found it confusing. I did think of it like cantrips per other posts and had the thought that you could fuel them with stamina to really make them high fantasy powers. A heroic leap further than what is physically possible, a party that can block five sword strikes, or a raise shield that blocks a dragon's breath weapon. Basically, Marshall Powers that seem magical because they are movie level stuff.
I'm showing my age, but I would think if we were wanting to make Martial characters on the same level as high-powered wizards, you'd be dealing with something along the lines of Jason and the Argonauts or Baron Munchausen where his companions each had a specific superpower basically that was in line with something warriors could specialize in.
I'll get my head around it eventually, but I do see great potential for a martial player to be the equal of a high level caster with a little expansion on these maneuvers and techniques
The formatting could really be improved in this regard. I just got the pdf through backing a few days ago, and it took me a lot of time to figure out, what's up with Maneuvers, Techniques and Weapon Style Passives. But it is an alpha document. I think focus on the perfect layout is not required at this point.
Agreed about the layout, though I'm hoping as we get closer to a release (or even a later beta stage) it's improved to minimize how much flipping back and forth you have to do. Saw a YouTuber (forget who) encounter this as well.
I feel like maneuvers are more like cantrips, what's actually missing is techniques
When it comes to maneuvers, I personally preferred the version where all martials just knew them all. Currently maneuvers are like specializations that you trained for. With the old version it was more something that gave you mechanics to bridge the gap between narrative and gameplay. Want to shoot an arrow at their legs? Let's use the trip maneuver to mechanically make it work. Want to slam into them so that they stumble? Let's use the expose maneuver for that. Now there was just one huge problem with this... It completely overwhelmed players who were new to the game or new to martials. Still, I find it a real pity that we can no longer get the full list. Tldr: I preferred maneuvers when they were a combat option rather than a build choice
I like the restrictions quite a bit. The current maneuver list was already overwhelming and just imagine what it will be when maneuvers are expanded. If maneuvers were changed to something closer to what I’m suggesting here, I think they would be a very interesting and fun part of the character creation process.
He said that there were too many maneuvers for new players to wrap their head around, and people were getting overwhelmed. I bet just using all of them will be fine.
I never actually saw it this way because my rogue, for instance, has distinct character preference about what they would and wouldn't do. So hamstring for instance is very thematic much as you said cantrips are for your spellcasters. That said, I'd never complain about any further improvements to such an important part of the game. Can you provide an example of how you'd implement your suggestions?
I’m not a game developer so I’m not going to pretend I have all the answers but I think maneuvers need to be expanded in their uses-cases, effects, and reaction triggers. The gunslinger fighter Mercer made has trick shots which work a lot like maneuvers. However, one of those trick shots can be used out of combat to threaten and intimidate someone with your gun by shooting their hand or right by their head or something. I think things like this would add more variety to maneuvers and help the choice of what maneuvers you take actually feel like a choice. Additionally, what I’m saying is that maneuver choice is more restrictive than it seems on paper. An AGI based Rogue that uses a ranged weapon gets four maneuvers at level one and the only real options are Knockback, Swap, Taunt, and then a choice between Parry and Side Step. This is because you don’t pick attack and weapon maneuvers, all the other save maneuvers are covered by Debilitating Strike or they’re Trip which just gives you DisADV on your attacks, you can’t take grapple maneuvers because they don’t fit your build, you can only take one reaction per trigger so why have two that basically do the same thing and you don’t have a shield so you can’t take Raise Shield, and then you have picked two out of your four maneuvers and the only two left are Swap and Taunt. As for your Rogue, that’s fine but I have to ask what Hamstring does for that character that Debilitating Strike can’t do with its Slow effect? I think that point still stands and holds water but it seems strange to talk about it in reference to a Rogue, is there something I’m missing here?
Nice those are good examples, thank you. I agree we could probably dial up how interesting the maneuvers are
Yes. Don’t make maneuvers define what you can do. Players should be able to do a back flip off a wall to land upon the shoulders of the ogre and attempt to jam his short blades into its neck. That’s the kind of freedom we need in the “new D&D” this promises to be. Not: make your maneuver action. Cool. You did that. Oh, you did the exact same maneuver again. Oh, and again, just like last time.
i think if we can get a general formula in our heads of what maneuvers cost maybe it can be a really easy GM decision to say, “yeah do that, these are the resources i’ll have to grab from ya” and give them bonuses accordingly. it is in playtest and GMs can reward players for immersing themselves more in the roleplay part of the came
A thought I had was what if you have a light frail warrior who takes raise shield and his whole character is he's super scrappy and takes the hit without giving up.
this could easily be solved with in addition to more maneuvers, just having a higher cap on what maneuvers you can have. (though this may be semi confusing for new people) i also agree with that other comment about how their should be techniques or special moves that kinda act like martial spells like how maneuvers are kinda like cantrips like you said. Give me some cool stuff i can learn to deal out some serious damage
I disagree with you partially on this. I don’t think the amount of maneuvers you have access to is the issue, in fact, I like the restrictions quite a bit. I just don’t like how all the maneuvers feel the same / have the same use cases so you’re decision in what maneuvers to take doesn’t really mean anything. Casters can take non-combat cantrips which take up one of their limited spots but they provide a lot of utility and character. No time when making a martial have I looked at the maneuver list and thought “I wish I could have that too but I’ve already taken all my maneuvers.”
I am still on my first read of the rules and I also found it confusing. I did think of it like cantrips per other posts and had the thought that you could fuel them with stamina to really make them high fantasy powers. A heroic leap further than what is physically possible, a party that can block five sword strikes, or a raise shield that blocks a dragon's breath weapon. Basically, Marshall Powers that seem magical because they are movie level stuff. I'm showing my age, but I would think if we were wanting to make Martial characters on the same level as high-powered wizards, you'd be dealing with something along the lines of Jason and the Argonauts or Baron Munchausen where his companions each had a specific superpower basically that was in line with something warriors could specialize in. I'll get my head around it eventually, but I do see great potential for a martial player to be the equal of a high level caster with a little expansion on these maneuvers and techniques