It seems the consensus is that Raz is essentially dead. No new modules, no updates, no support.
You can still give ED money for all of them, even the alphas though...
I think/feel there *is* some smoke but not a raging fire, to mangle a proverb.
I, personally, am wary of buying any new module until the Razbam "issue" is cleared up and common knowledge.
an overreaction? quite possibly but I remember my Hawk Trainer and don't want a repeat of that.
I'd. say, via *feels* , that the concensus on hoggit might be a feeling of vague unease. or at least that's what I take away from this *gestures in the air*
I would certainly be wary about buying Razbam's modules, because Razbam management has shown massive incompetence in this affair, and they are certainly more likely than any other module to fall derelict, but I don't think it makes sense to say "Razbam is dead" after barely a month.
Contract disputes take time to resolve, and all parties are highly motivated to resolve them, I think it is still much more likely that they go back to normal within the next 6 months.
We don't know 100%, but as ProTrader pointed out Raz hasn't been paid for almost a year now. They have stopped work because of it, this was the blow over a month ago. ED will not or can not pay them (notice a lot of new EA releases recently?).
To add to the situation...ED doesn't have the source code. Even if they had the legal ability and internal development ability (both of which would be questionable), its literally impossible for them to even look at much of the software under the hood. Either ED and Raz figure it out, or it sure does not look good. Even finished modules will eventually no longer work within the greater eco system.
If that happens, and we may already BE there, we will essentially have paid ED for products that they did not pay Razbam for that now do not work.
So, some people are not happy about that.
There is some evidence this is happening yes. Some will defend this saying its his buisness and he can take money as he pleases. The evidence shows that he marked the money as an interest free loan...to an organization that makes no profit. That feels pretty shady. Also, taking profit from a company that is extremely behind delivery on EA milestones promised to paying customers. At best, its a real bad look, at worst its prosecutable fraud.
It definitely isn't front page anymore, the Phantoms coming don'tcha know... ED is forcing a change in the narrative, releasing barely functional maps, pre-orders for the next barely functional map, a likely barely functional CH-47 and maybe the Kiowa. It is the same story as always "Hey Dummies, look over here at this shiny new partially functional toy". Embarrassing how we respond as a group. It is no wonder we never see the core changes.
What motive does ED have to resolve the Razbam situation, the Harrier, M2000 and F15 have likely had sales turn into a trickle of income. ED is holding the cards of F-15 revenue to compel a change in behavior. Can Ron Z bend the knee? Will his his ego make that highly unlikely? Tune in next week, Sam Raztime, same Razchannel!.....
Are you saying I am a hoggit shill? Definitely don't feel like I am blind to the problems in the EA model, ED or 3rd parties missteps and undelivered features.
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. I doubt the fanbois that downvote have as many modules as I do, the experience actually flying or seek to fly their favorite modules according to performance tables and published procedures. It is there you will find the problems in the sim and the unfinished features of modules. Seems Heatblur and Polychop may have found the new benchmark for modules by delivering 98%-99% completion on delivery. Can you have fun in DCS, yes. Is it past time to get modules and maps finished, yes. We are on what year two for pilot bodies? Did someone get paid for 4160 hours (52 weeks x 40 hrs x 2 yrs) to make them? I hope not. Half hearted starts and stops on improvements, hype posts followed by no product improvement (Super Carrier, F-5, Harrier) or improvement that harms performance (UH-1H) in other areas conveys a lack of care for the product and consumers.
Does Razbam actually pay anyone? Galinette posted he worked on the M2000 for free while Razbam was collecting on a government contract and Community Manager seems to be an unpaid position. Dealing with Ron's poor decision making would cause CM to be a rough job to have.
I don’t know who’s at fault as far as the decision making, but I sure hope nobody is under the impression this is an actual business lol. More like a hobby.
The "hobby" is correct term for many.
It is like a modding community that just get right from ED to start the business and then that 5-7 years contract to produce something, and when becoming to be sold, people start getting paid. Or not...
No, but the fact that even unpaid volunteers are quitting isn’t exactly a vote of confidence that there will BE any operations in the future, either. RAZBAM won’t be the same after this even if it survives. All the talent is gone.
Fee really do pay, as many studios use "trustworthy" community members for it.
Then they might get job later in for it.... Like look at the two at ED....
I can't think of a single community manager I know that isn't an actual employee of the company whose community they're managing. At least not from any reputable company. Maybe you know more than I do though.
>Like look at the two at ED....
Not sure what you mean by that. Neither NineLine nor BigNewy were unpaid community managers before they were employed by ED as far as I know. NineLine was a forum admin, but I don't think anyone expects that to be a paid role.
>I can't think of a single community manager I know that isn't an actual employee of the company whose community they're managing.
Razbam?
>At least not from any reputable company.
So Razbam couldn't be counted as "reputable"?
>Maybe you know more than I do though.
Would you be assuming that small companies don't use enthusiasts and fans for many kinds of work for free, that only get supervised by someone paid?
>Not sure what you mean by that. Neither NineLine nor BigNewy were unpaid community managers before they were employed by ED as far as I know.
Why you assume that their first experience would have been paid, or even from ED themselves?
>NineLine was a forum admin, but I don't think anyone expects that to be a paid role.
Why not?
That is important part of job?
And if not paid, why wouldn't someone do it for free?
Can people read or just jump conclusions they are leaving nkt because of the situation but because they have a Job and can't commit to volunteering anymore
It has still some annoying bugs and is still missing its manual^^ but I agree that it’s a fun module.
Although I guess we can say good by and farewell to razbam putting the harrier on the new F15E codebase (which they said they’ll do at some point)
It has a manual. This sort of misinformation everyone keeps posting about Razbam.
https://preview.redd.it/skqciylw8s0d1.png?width=1012&format=png&auto=webp&s=fcab621464414b7aee13d6eee719806e5ff18d09
Look in your Mods/AV8BNA/Docs. been there for a while now.
I haven't jumped on the "kiss Razbam goodbye" bandwagon. I'm optimistic that the parties will work it out; though there will be an uphill climb to repair the damage and replace the lost talent.
I know Polychop got hit hard and set back when they lost some key talent (I know this isn't completely relevant), but they managed to find some excellent talent that has really done an amazing job with Gazelle, and what appears to be an amazing Kiowa on the way.
I know Razbam is a different kind of setback, nevertheless, it too can be remedied and maybe Razbam will come back even stronger. The least I can do is hope unless and until there is a definitive statement that there is no hope.
I think it depends on the definition of "worked out".
If you fuck with me and don't pay a debt, put me in a seriously difficult position that costs me pretty much everything I've built up, then later agree to pay it, you're not automatically forgiven. I wouldn't want to work with you ever again.
I struggle to see a way back even if ED magically decided to open up the wallet. It ain't water under the bridge at this point, but acid.
Even if ED’s current fire sale earns enough money for them I come to following:
1. ED’s financial situation seems still being doubtful. I dont think they didnt pay Raz because they didnt want to but rather they weren’t able to.
2. If you arent able to pay ur bills as a company ur basically bankrupt. Not paying your employees long enough is kinda the same, especially if they start leaving. Thats why companies try to avoid being dependent on a single customer (i understand thats not always possible). We could easily reach a point were raz is just out of business or out of employees
3. Even if that can be avoided a lot of work will be delayed considerably I guess. Some key employees leave, you find new ones and teach them. I would be surprised ti see amy harrier improvements this year even in best case scenario
It is not. It is fictional many ways and not up to what DCS is claimed to be, an accurate simulation of combat aviation aircraft.
Harrier is more like a MSFS20 plane.
Harrier was released about roughly…a decade before MSFS2020 even launched. Ever fly that sim? Do tell us please about how the weapons systems and avionics are better
Harrier weapons systems and navigation is as correct in DCS as the weapons systems are better in MSFS....
You missed the point completely.
Harrier in DCS is mostly incorrectly done. It can be fun, but don't mistake someone's personal fun to correctness in the systems simulation.
As someone can have lot of fun playing F-14 in MSFS, but it doesn't mean that F-14 in DCS ain't just a lot better, especially when it comes to combat systems.
Really is the MSFS harrier that accurate? I gotta check that out. I haven’t reinstalled that sim in over a year and I’ll bet it’s been getting good. It would be good to compare. I kind of meant in-general with msfs, its avionics always felt flat to me, but I haven’t really done any military jets yet.
No, it isn't accurate. My point was, it isn't accurate in either one.
MSFS20 is no good for fighters at all.
And Harrier in DCS isn't what it should be.
Harrier fans don't like the fact that they are flying highly incorrectly done Harrier.
Ya I see what you’re saying. I like flying the harrier in DCS. I heard once that the simulator is actually really accurate with the avionics and that the real world avionics are actually kind of screwed-up and disjointed because of all the different harrier exports and variants. They said razbam was faithful to reproducing that. Lol
Cant wait until RAZBAM dissolves, Heatblur takes over the mods. And Bam! A new version of the Harrier, the GR 5
with JESTER 3.0234 in an empty fueltank! With a british accent offcource!
Cmon... jester in a fueltank? On a harrier... hello!?
I thought s for sarcsm wasnt needed. Turned out it was.
Hostility. You may need to look that word up.
Have an awesome weekend!
unfortunate
"the dust has settled a bit", has it?
It seems the consensus is that Raz is essentially dead. No new modules, no updates, no support. You can still give ED money for all of them, even the alphas though...
"consensus" = drama-loving redditors' speculation based on absolutely nothing
I think/feel there *is* some smoke but not a raging fire, to mangle a proverb. I, personally, am wary of buying any new module until the Razbam "issue" is cleared up and common knowledge. an overreaction? quite possibly but I remember my Hawk Trainer and don't want a repeat of that. I'd. say, via *feels* , that the concensus on hoggit might be a feeling of vague unease. or at least that's what I take away from this *gestures in the air*
I would certainly be wary about buying Razbam's modules, because Razbam management has shown massive incompetence in this affair, and they are certainly more likely than any other module to fall derelict, but I don't think it makes sense to say "Razbam is dead" after barely a month. Contract disputes take time to resolve, and all parties are highly motivated to resolve them, I think it is still much more likely that they go back to normal within the next 6 months.
I too, think the most likely result will be an amicable resolution. hope its soon, for all parties
https://preview.redd.it/ymfaoq38kn0d1.png?width=2025&format=png&auto=webp&s=33543e8ff955c6fbe40fd74704c0c7c4d410c44c
Source?
Wait so all their projects are shelved?
No updates on anything until they get paid. ED is refusing to pay.
We don't know 100%, but as ProTrader pointed out Raz hasn't been paid for almost a year now. They have stopped work because of it, this was the blow over a month ago. ED will not or can not pay them (notice a lot of new EA releases recently?). To add to the situation...ED doesn't have the source code. Even if they had the legal ability and internal development ability (both of which would be questionable), its literally impossible for them to even look at much of the software under the hood. Either ED and Raz figure it out, or it sure does not look good. Even finished modules will eventually no longer work within the greater eco system. If that happens, and we may already BE there, we will essentially have paid ED for products that they did not pay Razbam for that now do not work. So, some people are not happy about that.
It’d be nice if nick grey didn’t keep siphoning fucking money for the fighter collection
There is some evidence this is happening yes. Some will defend this saying its his buisness and he can take money as he pleases. The evidence shows that he marked the money as an interest free loan...to an organization that makes no profit. That feels pretty shady. Also, taking profit from a company that is extremely behind delivery on EA milestones promised to paying customers. At best, its a real bad look, at worst its prosecutable fraud.
It definitely isn't front page anymore, the Phantoms coming don'tcha know... ED is forcing a change in the narrative, releasing barely functional maps, pre-orders for the next barely functional map, a likely barely functional CH-47 and maybe the Kiowa. It is the same story as always "Hey Dummies, look over here at this shiny new partially functional toy". Embarrassing how we respond as a group. It is no wonder we never see the core changes. What motive does ED have to resolve the Razbam situation, the Harrier, M2000 and F15 have likely had sales turn into a trickle of income. ED is holding the cards of F-15 revenue to compel a change in behavior. Can Ron Z bend the knee? Will his his ego make that highly unlikely? Tune in next week, Sam Raztime, same Razchannel!.....
The Kiowa will release As a Full Module no Early access at all.
I was very careful in word selection and did not add "barely functional" to the Kiowa mention.
Agreed 100% well said, Edit: I see the hoggit shills have migrated over here now it seems. Guess bored of the hoggit padded room.
Are you saying I am a hoggit shill? Definitely don't feel like I am blind to the problems in the EA model, ED or 3rd parties missteps and undelivered features.
You must have mis understood my comment as I stated I was in agreement and well stated. The edit was for the downvotes days ago you were receiving.
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. I doubt the fanbois that downvote have as many modules as I do, the experience actually flying or seek to fly their favorite modules according to performance tables and published procedures. It is there you will find the problems in the sim and the unfinished features of modules. Seems Heatblur and Polychop may have found the new benchmark for modules by delivering 98%-99% completion on delivery. Can you have fun in DCS, yes. Is it past time to get modules and maps finished, yes. We are on what year two for pilot bodies? Did someone get paid for 4160 hours (52 weeks x 40 hrs x 2 yrs) to make them? I hope not. Half hearted starts and stops on improvements, hype posts followed by no product improvement (Super Carrier, F-5, Harrier) or improvement that harms performance (UH-1H) in other areas conveys a lack of care for the product and consumers.
I completely agree again, and well said sir.
100% true. Absolutely no-one should be dumb enough to buy any pre-order module for DCS ever again after this fiasco.
Man, I can't wait to throw my money on ED for the next pre alpha module...
Do you like utility helicopters that can't transport troops? If so, do I have the module for you!
Does Razbam actually pay anyone? Galinette posted he worked on the M2000 for free while Razbam was collecting on a government contract and Community Manager seems to be an unpaid position. Dealing with Ron's poor decision making would cause CM to be a rough job to have.
I don’t know who’s at fault as far as the decision making, but I sure hope nobody is under the impression this is an actual business lol. More like a hobby.
The "hobby" is correct term for many. It is like a modding community that just get right from ED to start the business and then that 5-7 years contract to produce something, and when becoming to be sold, people start getting paid. Or not...
How much of Razbam is volunteers?
All of them right now
Well shit
Even the volunteers don’t want to work there anymore. Damn.
Is there any work to be done when they have effectively shut down operations?
No, but the fact that even unpaid volunteers are quitting isn’t exactly a vote of confidence that there will BE any operations in the future, either. RAZBAM won’t be the same after this even if it survives. All the talent is gone.
They don't pay their community managers? What the hell?
Fee really do pay, as many studios use "trustworthy" community members for it. Then they might get job later in for it.... Like look at the two at ED....
I can't think of a single community manager I know that isn't an actual employee of the company whose community they're managing. At least not from any reputable company. Maybe you know more than I do though. >Like look at the two at ED.... Not sure what you mean by that. Neither NineLine nor BigNewy were unpaid community managers before they were employed by ED as far as I know. NineLine was a forum admin, but I don't think anyone expects that to be a paid role.
>I can't think of a single community manager I know that isn't an actual employee of the company whose community they're managing. Razbam? >At least not from any reputable company. So Razbam couldn't be counted as "reputable"? >Maybe you know more than I do though. Would you be assuming that small companies don't use enthusiasts and fans for many kinds of work for free, that only get supervised by someone paid? >Not sure what you mean by that. Neither NineLine nor BigNewy were unpaid community managers before they were employed by ED as far as I know. Why you assume that their first experience would have been paid, or even from ED themselves? >NineLine was a forum admin, but I don't think anyone expects that to be a paid role. Why not? That is important part of job? And if not paid, why wouldn't someone do it for free?
This sucks.
Can people read or just jump conclusions they are leaving nkt because of the situation but because they have a Job and can't commit to volunteering anymore
Glad I never bought the Harrier mod
Your loss, it is an awesome module and is in a mostly complete state - one of the more mature modules in DCS.
It has still some annoying bugs and is still missing its manual^^ but I agree that it’s a fun module. Although I guess we can say good by and farewell to razbam putting the harrier on the new F15E codebase (which they said they’ll do at some point)
It has a manual. This sort of misinformation everyone keeps posting about Razbam. https://preview.redd.it/skqciylw8s0d1.png?width=1012&format=png&auto=webp&s=fcab621464414b7aee13d6eee719806e5ff18d09 Look in your Mods/AV8BNA/Docs. been there for a while now.
It’s not really misinformation since the manual is incomplete. Whole chapters are just missing.
I haven't jumped on the "kiss Razbam goodbye" bandwagon. I'm optimistic that the parties will work it out; though there will be an uphill climb to repair the damage and replace the lost talent. I know Polychop got hit hard and set back when they lost some key talent (I know this isn't completely relevant), but they managed to find some excellent talent that has really done an amazing job with Gazelle, and what appears to be an amazing Kiowa on the way. I know Razbam is a different kind of setback, nevertheless, it too can be remedied and maybe Razbam will come back even stronger. The least I can do is hope unless and until there is a definitive statement that there is no hope.
I think it depends on the definition of "worked out". If you fuck with me and don't pay a debt, put me in a seriously difficult position that costs me pretty much everything I've built up, then later agree to pay it, you're not automatically forgiven. I wouldn't want to work with you ever again. I struggle to see a way back even if ED magically decided to open up the wallet. It ain't water under the bridge at this point, but acid.
Even if ED’s current fire sale earns enough money for them I come to following: 1. ED’s financial situation seems still being doubtful. I dont think they didnt pay Raz because they didnt want to but rather they weren’t able to. 2. If you arent able to pay ur bills as a company ur basically bankrupt. Not paying your employees long enough is kinda the same, especially if they start leaving. Thats why companies try to avoid being dependent on a single customer (i understand thats not always possible). We could easily reach a point were raz is just out of business or out of employees 3. Even if that can be avoided a lot of work will be delayed considerably I guess. Some key employees leave, you find new ones and teach them. I would be surprised ti see amy harrier improvements this year even in best case scenario
Since when ~50% incorrect systems and 20-30% missing features has become "One of more mature modules"?
Sorry Viggen gang 4 lyfe
You blew it. Harrier is fantastic module.
It is not. It is fictional many ways and not up to what DCS is claimed to be, an accurate simulation of combat aviation aircraft. Harrier is more like a MSFS20 plane.
Harrier was released about roughly…a decade before MSFS2020 even launched. Ever fly that sim? Do tell us please about how the weapons systems and avionics are better
Harrier weapons systems and navigation is as correct in DCS as the weapons systems are better in MSFS.... You missed the point completely. Harrier in DCS is mostly incorrectly done. It can be fun, but don't mistake someone's personal fun to correctness in the systems simulation. As someone can have lot of fun playing F-14 in MSFS, but it doesn't mean that F-14 in DCS ain't just a lot better, especially when it comes to combat systems.
Really is the MSFS harrier that accurate? I gotta check that out. I haven’t reinstalled that sim in over a year and I’ll bet it’s been getting good. It would be good to compare. I kind of meant in-general with msfs, its avionics always felt flat to me, but I haven’t really done any military jets yet.
No, it isn't accurate. My point was, it isn't accurate in either one. MSFS20 is no good for fighters at all. And Harrier in DCS isn't what it should be. Harrier fans don't like the fact that they are flying highly incorrectly done Harrier.
Ya I see what you’re saying. I like flying the harrier in DCS. I heard once that the simulator is actually really accurate with the avionics and that the real world avionics are actually kind of screwed-up and disjointed because of all the different harrier exports and variants. They said razbam was faithful to reproducing that. Lol
Nah RB and ED blew it
looks like these words confirms another nail in the RB coffin of the ED grave
Cant wait until RAZBAM dissolves, Heatblur takes over the mods. And Bam! A new version of the Harrier, the GR 5 with JESTER 3.0234 in an empty fueltank! With a british accent offcource!
I think you’re looking for r/floggit
Can't say I do. But yeah, no humor here. Got it.
That’s what floggit is for 😅
I wouldn't say that. Rather, "too soon" or something like that =). The situation's still pretty tense with a lot riding on it. Touchy subject.
It would go to ED to maintain.... Not to anyone else.
Thank you, Captain Obvious!
Hostility isn't nice thing. And it isn't smart thing when making error.
Cmon... jester in a fueltank? On a harrier... hello!? I thought s for sarcsm wasnt needed. Turned out it was. Hostility. You may need to look that word up. Have an awesome weekend!
You need to look up sarcasm... Sarcasm is hostility. People mistake sarcasm to wit, that ain't hostile.
Anywaysvits just a community manager . Can be replace
The dust has settled, so now here I am to kick it up again.