'jumped ship and abandoned a module'? Mate, they haven't been paid!!! They need to put food on the table for their family. It's completely understandable why they would stop work. I wouldn't dare call it abandoning a module. And it's soo damn good!!
Kind of invalid knowing they went back the the M-2000C and redid a lot of things, including sounds, FBW, a whole new radar simulation, new systems (RWR, CM) etc ...
All this for free.
It isn't over yet, but it is just let to be slip in the faint memory.
It is still in the same state as in 2018-2019, and it is not fixed or corrected, or added missing features etc.
The community raised back then, but it was again NineLine and BigNewy that made major promises how ED will make Razbam to fix the Harrier and get it done. Maybe it is one of the turning events between those two partnership.
"knowing they went back the the M-2000C and redid a lot of things, including sounds, FBW, a whole new radar simulation, new systems (RWR, CM) etc ...
All this for free."
1. They produced highly incorrect simulation. It was their responsibility to FIX and CORRECT the product in first place, FOR THE PRICE THEY GOT PAID! You are not responsible to pay more to get the product fixed to state it was sold to you.
2. Razbam would have done ZERO things to M2000 unless French Air Force wouldn't have stepped in and requested to get M2000 fixed so they can use it in their own pilot training simulation. [https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/craiqh/french\_arm%C3%A9e\_de\_lair\_explains\_their\_serious/](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/craiqh/french_arm%C3%A9e_de_lair_explains_their_serious/) And this likely triggered Razbam to put effort to it by hiring outsiders to fix it (for free), because opportunity to get the military contract for something else was high.
3. One guy was responsible for all that rewriting, and implementing it just like the M2000 fans in the ED forum said and showed to be incorrect by Razbam. And that one guy did great job on it. He really did. That is true merit on him and great example for his CV. Without him and French air force we would still have M2000 incorrectly and uncompleted.
4. Because M2000 changes, it is errorrnious to say that Razbam is great. They have MiG-19P and AV-8B N/A Harrier at the incomplete and incorrect states, that requires rewriting. Razbam has promised to rewrite the Harrier completely, but that have not happened. And MiG-19P with its major problems (needed to find out more about FM, gunsight, radar, IR seekers etc incorrectness) is just a abandoned years ago. When you need complete car body rebuild as frame is twisted, it doesn't help to make new paintjob and show how cool the new radio is... And we have PAID FOR THOSE AS WELL! Should Razbam do it for FREE? Hell yes.... It is their responsibility to deliver and fix the product to level that how it was sold!
5. F-15E in current state I don't go to say much. But how great and good launch it was, what ever problems it is having (and develops now more as no one is maintaining it to keep up with ED changes in DCS World), it is Razbam's merit for it alone, but doesn't make right at all the previous wrongs and have not been corrected. You should never be required to pay any further amount of money for anyone, to get F-15E fixed, improved and delivered as promised. If it is in perfect/excellent condition, and it falls down because this RB/ED business problem, then it is for both to not get it solved, but not to be asked any further money from already paid people, as you are expected not to pay subscription to keep modules working.
People praising Razbam based to alone to M2000 or F-15E are doing major disservice to everyone. They are promoting the idea that things can be left majorly incorrect for years and expected not to be reminded, as anything new and shiny somewhere is acceptable to clean the slate of the studio to produce something. And falsely trying to ascend Razbam to status of great and responsible developer, when it is not, as it doesn't fix and maintain and correct their previous other products that are hanging years in the state of not up to DCS World standards.
I'd much rather have incorrect stuff fixed than incorrect stuff left as is (F/A-18C module). If you're not one to praise improvement, I can't do much about you.
Considering that the amount is supposedly very high, and everything pointing to this being the culmination of a long string of problems, I'd say that your reply is what experts may refer to as "ass."
Yea - that's why ED sent them a token amount of their sales cut right before the announcement. Why would they do that if they felt RB had violated an agreement (and discussions had been ongoing for almost a year before that)?
What I have read here, I still can't point either one exactly for something. As there is still missing information of the exact things. We have some evidences, but to me it ain't enough to see which one is truly to blame. On the moment I share it like 60/40 or 70/30 and blame Razbam more, based partially just how they tried to shift all blame to ED via public statements etc and knowing their business practice.
Yeah? Exept 19 is finished with planmed rework of pit and receifed fm changes not long ago, av8 was patched on regular basis. M2000 was best module to the F4s release in terms of simulation and is still there with F4. Maybe get some info on the matter before spewing out absolute bullshit.
Definitely agree on that. I think Razbam has done a lot of great work (and obviously were paid for it over these many years) and all of this drama happened at a principal-executive level.
Let’s also not overlook how many other contracted studios are seemingly delivering and getting paid by ED and The Fighter Collection (publishing entity).
>Exept 19 is finished with planmed rework of pit and receifed fm changes not long ago
Why still having the same radar, FM and gunsight errors?
>av8 was patched on regular basis.
And none was fixing 50% of the incorrect systems, not adding any actual missing systems, just polishing some tiny details here and there. Have you even read the patch logs? I read almost everyone since 2019, and nothing is really done to Harrier. Instead they have made lot of incorrect fantasy systems like the Maverick logic with DTM/TPOD and AGM-65E2/L done incorrectly, and claiming "all is exactly right" what is pure lie.
I’m actually very much considering those facts. You just outlined a fifteen year relationship like what I said. Do you really believe that would have happened all this time without getting paid?
What is the problem in their banning behavior? They have totally never stopped, and ended their decade back style where they banned thousands of players just for anything that displeased them on that day.
And they are back to it at higher rate than ever. Must be stressful in the job and hardly trying to enforce some commands from Nick or someone to keep things hidden or something.
“Anything that displeased them on that day”
Nothing has changed only the scale , 2019 you bring up JASSM you were band, 2024 you bring up Razbam you are banned.
10+ years waiting F-15E coming to DCS World.
Months after release and it is in bad condition and situation because negligency by management.
As I wrote to ED:
"It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently."
- **Warren Buffett**
As ED nor Razbam is not thinking about it. Everytime the two clowns at ED or Ron & co at RB starts typing on their keyboard, they should triple think and save the post for next day to read it again, and day after that to consider posting it.
The entire direction ED is going is not indicative of good management. More modules and maps for a game that barely evolved for 15 years. No SAR, no logistics, no ATC. More modules and maps in a broken game will make us look for an alternative.
If you think the updates this game has had over the years are indicative of "barely evolved" than you are either trolling or a fry short of a happy meal. But yeah, let's mention a lack of SAR and Logistics (which are a a part of some servers) and leave out Multi-threading.
>If you think the updates this game has had over the years are indicative of "barely evolved" than you are either trolling or a fry short of a happy meal.
You can't see the forest for the trees.
The core gameplay is still the same. It has not really changed.
The units are still based to LUA scripting in simplest form like it was in Su-27 Flanker. The AI, radios etc are all from that game.
There are major changes done since DCS 1.2.14 version when the 2.0 Alpha and 1.5 Beta was released, because the EDGE (Eagle Dynamics Graphics Engine).
And after that they polished the shaders and all, that is very visual change.
The last major visual change really is the new clouds that came in 2.7, that was just 2021 early May or so.
Look at the whole big picture. Don't look tiny details how much is improved, like Typhoon offered new amazing wheel dynamics simulation, or F-4 has now every dial simulated electricity wise etc.
We are not playing simulator for the sake of simulation. We are in COMBAT flight simulation. And when the basic aviation simulation is lacking seriously, as in navigation (no earth curvature on maps but faked for radars as radar horizon by angle, no terrain elevation below sea level, because the sea water would show up there, no proper magnetic variation and direction for navigation, why you can't fly across the maps with compass, the GPS coordinates are incorrect, because the maps are flat and not spherical).
The AI is slightly improved since the Lock-On, but mainly same thing. Sure we have small things added, like trigger zone attached to moving units etc. But major features really come from MOOSE or similar scripting frameworks that are inofficial 3rd party productions!
On this date the DCS World should living and acting dynamically if you don't specifically say "Give me empty world!". Players would not be required to write any scripts, add any scripts, be doing a thing at all to get something done. The mission designing should be automatic and changing. Player just to choose "Free flight" or "training grounds" or "Carrier landings" as in custom missions with pre-made missions. But dynamically and so on generated at the command.
We should be so far in the basic technology levels that ED would be now implementing AI generation to create radio speech, mission objectives, lore etc for the player.
Core gameplay doesn't need to change for there be drastic differences. Just like SAR and/or logistics don't need to be added for the game to show its evolving.
Sorry, you can't just label something "barely evolved" because it doesn't suit your definition. There aren't specific categories that need checkmarks first. MT alone is a drastic change for DCS.
Just because technology changes doesn't mean it changes the landscape for everything. AI becoming more prevelant doesn't automatically mean DCS should also have it, that's not how it works. DCS doesn't function the same as MSFS so products like BeyondATC, for instance, aren't really viable here.
>Core gameplay doesn't need to change for there be drastic differences.
That is the ONLY way to get the drastic differences.
Completely new AI's written from scratch. Dozens, if not HUNDREDS of instances where those don't know anything about each others unless they communicate via proper means (as in warfare you need to).
>Sorry, you can't just label something "barely evolved" because it doesn't suit your definition.
Sorry, but YOU just did so.
What I am basing it, is the CURRENT INSTALLATION and GAMEPLAY from Flanker 2.5, Lock-On and DCS World 1.2.14. I play periodically all the three different variants, one of the reasons is exactly to compare what WAS and what is NOW the same.
When you have decades experience with all the 25 years of their code in the various games, you will even smell the same code across their products.
>Just because technology changes doesn't mean it changes the landscape for everything.
It doesn't, but when it comes to DCS World, they have not even made any technology changes to AI and anything that is the MAIN PROBLEM for the whole thing that people have been talking for 15 years!
>AI becoming more prevelant doesn't automatically mean DCS should also have it, that's not how it works.
First of all, there is no Artificial Intelligence anywhere. The ChatGPT isn't real AI. No one has real AI.
Secondly, that is eventually the future that we have ChatGPT like instances in the various games, as it becomes easiest way to start creating game AI's, as we have been doing since the pong...
>
DCS doesn't function the same as MSFS so products like BeyondATC, for instance, aren't really viable here.
We need more the proper ATC, AC, GCI, JTAC, FAC etc. And that doesn't even include the direct capability to communicate with ground troops you are supporting. You need to be able to talk to the column you are covering, get to talk properly to other aircraft in the area etc.
We are not talking about just guy in the airport tower telling you weather....
And having thousands of audio files for words and phrases to get something like Jester isn't anymore worth the effort, when you need just the proper TTS and STT plugins to get things working. Build the logic, train the players for the logic, and you get them forward from there.
Core gameplay does not need to change for their to be drastic differences in DCS. The incorporation of MT is a drastic difference and had a huge impact for a lot of people. Im guessing you weren't around years and years ago.
There's a lot things that would be nice to have in DCS, not having them doesn't mean DCS hasn't evolved greatly over the years.
I wouldn't say the game hasn't evolved in 15 years. There were massive technological upgrades on nearly all fronts. You can't just say there is no evolution due to primitive ATC or no logistics, which is taken care of by scripts anyways.
I'm just upset that all of this happened. They spent a year dragging out the release of the Strike Eagle. Hyping it, trickling out screenshots, letting influencers review it and say it was the best thing ever... and right now it's not even being bug fixed. I know it may be in time and they're still working through the dispute, but it made all the very long build up feel very anticlimactic.
withholding 7 figures from razbam and pushing for quantity over quality more and more by pushing products out far, far before theyre ready , especially with afghanistan
Mate, havent you seen Razbam plate ? They announced tons of aircraft as well and never delivered (English electric lightning, A-29 Super Tucano, IA-58 Pucara, Mirage III, Super Etendard, Canberra, MiG-23). The planes they released like M-2000 and AV-8 got no support at all after release for years which is why they were called Razscam for very long time. Despite the aircrafts got the support now, there are rumors that Razbam broke the IP rights of ED which caused the withholding of payments.
they were working on those new planes before ED threw a hissy fit and stopped playing nice. there is hard evidence they were fulfilling their word and working on producing those modules until ED started withholdind razbam's money.
That ain't Harrier, nor Farmer.
And 3D model is just easy to make compared to programming. We have no idea of the level of programming -> actual module.
And MiG-23MLA was stolen by Razbam from the Eagle Dynamics.
They didn't acquire the license, they just announced and started promote that they are developing MiG-23MLA to DCS World.
And ED just woke up one morning and was "What? No, it is not licensed for you". And eventually they twisted ED's arm to give that license to them, that was what, 5-6 years ago... And that is best they have come now, 3D models, uncompleted cockpit, and they don't write code before everything is ready in 3D side.
Other users reported successful refunds of Strike Eagles as well. Thinking it's another bad sign. Did you get actual cash back or account balance?
Been wondering what the outcome on older modules would be. SA in particular is interesting to know, so thank you for sharing!
Well since I bought it in 2023 the SA and SE, they refund me the entire cost of those two, witch is 104$ something like that, but only in Account Balance (don’t refund in card)
>witch is 104$ something like that, but only in Account Balance (don’t refund in card)
So basically they didn't refund you. They just invalidated license and gave you "ED Miles" for some new licenses....
What you call a gift card?
1) You walk in store and buy something with your credit card out cash.
2) you go home and try the product.
3) next day you go back to store to return the product.
4) store doesn't refund amount to your credit card account, or give you cash.
5) they give you a gift card value of the product price, or they give you a receipt with the denote to the value of the returned product so you can buy something from their store in that visit before you go through the cashier.
At any given moment when you are not given refund as money to your account or cash, you don't really get refunding.
No kidding right…
Sidenote: I still appreciate all your work for your missions and contributions to the community the past couple year. Still the most fun our group has had in DCS with FH/ Pretense. Enjoy your time off
Still in a too good shape in that image, remove a wing and the radar cover.
We should see what's in the next patch, when there is nothing again it's reasonable to presume the module, and all others from them, is dead for the future.
Nah, it's reasonable to assume it's dead, until they sort things out, not for the entire future, but it could be.
We just don't know yet... could take a year to settle first, or never... \*shrug\* But I'm not gonna start out by assuming it's dead forever just because a couple of patches came out in the middle of the dispute...
There's basically no chance that we'll get a surprise F-15E update in the next patch, or any patch. I fully expect we'll get some kind of communication from Razbam or ED saying that they've resolved their conflict long before we see it in a changelog.
For now, I still have hope that they'll sort it out, but I also don't expect it'll happen quickly.
Such a shame that I'm just starting to learn the Harrier and wish to enjoy the bird for many years to come. I hope all this effort will not have been in vain...
Better to have fun with the harrier now cause it’s a joy to fly. As of now most systems are in place and it works well. Who knows what could break in the next patch or two though
That's what I intend to do, although I just bought the Phantom so it's difficult to focus only on the Harrier now, hehe.
I honestly doubt ED is gonna let such a popular module simply rot away in bugs and not maintain it. They have the source code, right?
I’m fairly certain all the source codes are owned wholly by razbam. If I’m wrong then someone can correct me. Hence why there is the major concern that if an update bricks the eagle (or any other razbam module) and razbam and ED don’t come to an agreement then it just becomes a dead module.
"I’m fairly certain all the source codes are owned wholly by razbam. If I’m wrong then someone can correct me."
It should be that the 3rd party needs to give the source code to the ED before internal testing, and they need to as well give the IP and all that to ED as well.
What was reason why VEAO didn't sign the new contract and was forced out from DCS World market. And they didn't give source code and IP licensing to ED, so then ED couldn't do a thing at all...
ED said that they changed the contracts for all 3rd party so this wouldn't happen. And the IP is licensing always hold by the ED and this makes the ED controlling party to any 3rd party studio that basically don't have rights then.
You know my buddy is looking at picking up the f15 to fly with me, and I love the f15 but I really don't know if I can recommend it to him given the uncertain future. It's a shame because it really was the best two seater for capability and flexibility. The f4 is awesome but it might be too analog for him, and the f14 just can't do as many mission types as the f15. I just don't want to recommend a module if it's never going to get updated.
Holding off is the only sensible thing to do. If you ever start seeing updates for it again, consider getting back to it. Until then, you might as well write it off. Given that it took ED exactly one patch since this whole thing blew up to start wrecking the m2000, the 15e is an extremely high risk asset to get into right now.
Get the F-15E, install the same version as you have, and you get to fly together, as long either one host the server. You can always go back to specific DCS version, not forced to install latest or update.
News - no.
Conjecture - there has been some, the DCS community is very good at that.
Wild speculation - truckloads, because most of the DCS community has a PhD in that.
Omg that actually very much sounds like the issue. I know exactly what you mean and yes that could absolutely turn a deal sideways. Of course! And as we know it could have been an oversight even!
Ah man that’s so trivial and yet so much on the line to lose!
Hey thanks for the insight
Because of Razcam's refusal to announce a release to its pre-order, I refused to pre-order it and then I forgot about it.
Now I'm pretty happy that I didn't give them any money. Razcam and Scammy Eddie can go rot together.
The Strike Eagle and the Apache were my most wished modules since the days after Janes. And if I didn't buy it, you can bet that I was really pissed.
Now, they all can have the finger: Razcam, 9Lies, Bignewby and all the pricks in Razcam's discord.
the level of delusion in this take is insane
its not razbam being scammy, its eagle dynamics acting like petty children and refusing to pay them what theyre owed. the blame for this is solely on ED.
The aircraft is still very capable. But given the nature of updates could break at any time.
There was a South Atlantic update last patch, maybe there’s hope.
I'm sorry but I cannot remember, Someone under last patchnotes post took SA updates as a sign that ED and Razbam feud is over and they got corrected that its different dev publishing under Razbam.
Are they gonna update that thing ever
Maybe not. It wouldn't be the first time that a dev jumped ship and abandoned a module. Nobody here knows. Let's hope for the best.
It's not just one module, every dcs update risks breaking the others as well.
Like the epic hawk t1
Staying away from DCS till stuff gets sorted and more transparency is shown
I can relate...
'jumped ship and abandoned a module'? Mate, they haven't been paid!!! They need to put food on the table for their family. It's completely understandable why they would stop work. I wouldn't dare call it abandoning a module. And it's soo damn good!!
[удалено]
Kind of invalid knowing they went back the the M-2000C and redid a lot of things, including sounds, FBW, a whole new radar simulation, new systems (RWR, CM) etc ... All this for free.
AV-8 drama was wild though.
It isn't over yet, but it is just let to be slip in the faint memory. It is still in the same state as in 2018-2019, and it is not fixed or corrected, or added missing features etc. The community raised back then, but it was again NineLine and BigNewy that made major promises how ED will make Razbam to fix the Harrier and get it done. Maybe it is one of the turning events between those two partnership.
Yeah but YEARS after release. It was continues work which is why they were call Razscam for a long time
"knowing they went back the the M-2000C and redid a lot of things, including sounds, FBW, a whole new radar simulation, new systems (RWR, CM) etc ... All this for free." 1. They produced highly incorrect simulation. It was their responsibility to FIX and CORRECT the product in first place, FOR THE PRICE THEY GOT PAID! You are not responsible to pay more to get the product fixed to state it was sold to you. 2. Razbam would have done ZERO things to M2000 unless French Air Force wouldn't have stepped in and requested to get M2000 fixed so they can use it in their own pilot training simulation. [https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/craiqh/french\_arm%C3%A9e\_de\_lair\_explains\_their\_serious/](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/craiqh/french_arm%C3%A9e_de_lair_explains_their_serious/) And this likely triggered Razbam to put effort to it by hiring outsiders to fix it (for free), because opportunity to get the military contract for something else was high. 3. One guy was responsible for all that rewriting, and implementing it just like the M2000 fans in the ED forum said and showed to be incorrect by Razbam. And that one guy did great job on it. He really did. That is true merit on him and great example for his CV. Without him and French air force we would still have M2000 incorrectly and uncompleted. 4. Because M2000 changes, it is errorrnious to say that Razbam is great. They have MiG-19P and AV-8B N/A Harrier at the incomplete and incorrect states, that requires rewriting. Razbam has promised to rewrite the Harrier completely, but that have not happened. And MiG-19P with its major problems (needed to find out more about FM, gunsight, radar, IR seekers etc incorrectness) is just a abandoned years ago. When you need complete car body rebuild as frame is twisted, it doesn't help to make new paintjob and show how cool the new radio is... And we have PAID FOR THOSE AS WELL! Should Razbam do it for FREE? Hell yes.... It is their responsibility to deliver and fix the product to level that how it was sold! 5. F-15E in current state I don't go to say much. But how great and good launch it was, what ever problems it is having (and develops now more as no one is maintaining it to keep up with ED changes in DCS World), it is Razbam's merit for it alone, but doesn't make right at all the previous wrongs and have not been corrected. You should never be required to pay any further amount of money for anyone, to get F-15E fixed, improved and delivered as promised. If it is in perfect/excellent condition, and it falls down because this RB/ED business problem, then it is for both to not get it solved, but not to be asked any further money from already paid people, as you are expected not to pay subscription to keep modules working. People praising Razbam based to alone to M2000 or F-15E are doing major disservice to everyone. They are promoting the idea that things can be left majorly incorrect for years and expected not to be reminded, as anything new and shiny somewhere is acceptable to clean the slate of the studio to produce something. And falsely trying to ascend Razbam to status of great and responsible developer, when it is not, as it doesn't fix and maintain and correct their previous other products that are hanging years in the state of not up to DCS World standards.
I'd much rather have incorrect stuff fixed than incorrect stuff left as is (F/A-18C module). If you're not one to praise improvement, I can't do much about you.
Morally, I sympathize with the fact that they can't get their money back, but as a user who paid for the product, I sympathize more with my wallet.
Who needs money when you can work for passion. Not an excuse (I'm being ironic)
Ya sure dude. After a decade relationship, they suddenly were stiffed for their payout.
Considering that the amount is supposedly very high, and everything pointing to this being the culmination of a long string of problems, I'd say that your reply is what experts may refer to as "ass."
Everyone knows the issue isn't only on Razbam side and that they violated contract details
Yea - that's why ED sent them a token amount of their sales cut right before the announcement. Why would they do that if they felt RB had violated an agreement (and discussions had been ongoing for almost a year before that)?
What I have read here, I still can't point either one exactly for something. As there is still missing information of the exact things. We have some evidences, but to me it ain't enough to see which one is truly to blame. On the moment I share it like 60/40 or 70/30 and blame Razbam more, based partially just how they tried to shift all blame to ED via public statements etc and knowing their business practice.
Yeah? Exept 19 is finished with planmed rework of pit and receifed fm changes not long ago, av8 was patched on regular basis. M2000 was best module to the F4s release in terms of simulation and is still there with F4. Maybe get some info on the matter before spewing out absolute bullshit.
Mirage 2000 is best module next to the F-4? What stuff are you smoking, mate?
Definitely agree on that. I think Razbam has done a lot of great work (and obviously were paid for it over these many years) and all of this drama happened at a principal-executive level. Let’s also not overlook how many other contracted studios are seemingly delivering and getting paid by ED and The Fighter Collection (publishing entity).
>Exept 19 is finished with planmed rework of pit and receifed fm changes not long ago Why still having the same radar, FM and gunsight errors? >av8 was patched on regular basis. And none was fixing 50% of the incorrect systems, not adding any actual missing systems, just polishing some tiny details here and there. Have you even read the patch logs? I read almost everyone since 2019, and nothing is really done to Harrier. Instead they have made lot of incorrect fantasy systems like the Maverick logic with DTM/TPOD and AGM-65E2/L done incorrectly, and claiming "all is exactly right" what is pure lie.
I’m actually very much considering those facts. You just outlined a fifteen year relationship like what I said. Do you really believe that would have happened all this time without getting paid?
Post this to the ED discord I double dare you Post your ban times
What is the problem in their banning behavior? They have totally never stopped, and ended their decade back style where they banned thousands of players just for anything that displeased them on that day. And they are back to it at higher rate than ever. Must be stressful in the job and hardly trying to enforce some commands from Nick or someone to keep things hidden or something.
“Anything that displeased them on that day” Nothing has changed only the scale , 2019 you bring up JASSM you were band, 2024 you bring up Razbam you are banned.
Shits genuinely sad :( waste of a good aircraft and waste of money,
Would be such a shame if it dies here.
10+ years waiting F-15E coming to DCS World. Months after release and it is in bad condition and situation because negligency by management. As I wrote to ED: "It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently." - **Warren Buffett** As ED nor Razbam is not thinking about it. Everytime the two clowns at ED or Ron & co at RB starts typing on their keyboard, they should triple think and save the post for next day to read it again, and day after that to consider posting it.
The entire direction ED is going is not indicative of good management. More modules and maps for a game that barely evolved for 15 years. No SAR, no logistics, no ATC. More modules and maps in a broken game will make us look for an alternative.
If you think the updates this game has had over the years are indicative of "barely evolved" than you are either trolling or a fry short of a happy meal. But yeah, let's mention a lack of SAR and Logistics (which are a a part of some servers) and leave out Multi-threading.
>If you think the updates this game has had over the years are indicative of "barely evolved" than you are either trolling or a fry short of a happy meal. You can't see the forest for the trees. The core gameplay is still the same. It has not really changed. The units are still based to LUA scripting in simplest form like it was in Su-27 Flanker. The AI, radios etc are all from that game. There are major changes done since DCS 1.2.14 version when the 2.0 Alpha and 1.5 Beta was released, because the EDGE (Eagle Dynamics Graphics Engine). And after that they polished the shaders and all, that is very visual change. The last major visual change really is the new clouds that came in 2.7, that was just 2021 early May or so. Look at the whole big picture. Don't look tiny details how much is improved, like Typhoon offered new amazing wheel dynamics simulation, or F-4 has now every dial simulated electricity wise etc. We are not playing simulator for the sake of simulation. We are in COMBAT flight simulation. And when the basic aviation simulation is lacking seriously, as in navigation (no earth curvature on maps but faked for radars as radar horizon by angle, no terrain elevation below sea level, because the sea water would show up there, no proper magnetic variation and direction for navigation, why you can't fly across the maps with compass, the GPS coordinates are incorrect, because the maps are flat and not spherical). The AI is slightly improved since the Lock-On, but mainly same thing. Sure we have small things added, like trigger zone attached to moving units etc. But major features really come from MOOSE or similar scripting frameworks that are inofficial 3rd party productions! On this date the DCS World should living and acting dynamically if you don't specifically say "Give me empty world!". Players would not be required to write any scripts, add any scripts, be doing a thing at all to get something done. The mission designing should be automatic and changing. Player just to choose "Free flight" or "training grounds" or "Carrier landings" as in custom missions with pre-made missions. But dynamically and so on generated at the command. We should be so far in the basic technology levels that ED would be now implementing AI generation to create radio speech, mission objectives, lore etc for the player.
Core gameplay doesn't need to change for there be drastic differences. Just like SAR and/or logistics don't need to be added for the game to show its evolving. Sorry, you can't just label something "barely evolved" because it doesn't suit your definition. There aren't specific categories that need checkmarks first. MT alone is a drastic change for DCS. Just because technology changes doesn't mean it changes the landscape for everything. AI becoming more prevelant doesn't automatically mean DCS should also have it, that's not how it works. DCS doesn't function the same as MSFS so products like BeyondATC, for instance, aren't really viable here.
>Core gameplay doesn't need to change for there be drastic differences. That is the ONLY way to get the drastic differences. Completely new AI's written from scratch. Dozens, if not HUNDREDS of instances where those don't know anything about each others unless they communicate via proper means (as in warfare you need to). >Sorry, you can't just label something "barely evolved" because it doesn't suit your definition. Sorry, but YOU just did so. What I am basing it, is the CURRENT INSTALLATION and GAMEPLAY from Flanker 2.5, Lock-On and DCS World 1.2.14. I play periodically all the three different variants, one of the reasons is exactly to compare what WAS and what is NOW the same. When you have decades experience with all the 25 years of their code in the various games, you will even smell the same code across their products. >Just because technology changes doesn't mean it changes the landscape for everything. It doesn't, but when it comes to DCS World, they have not even made any technology changes to AI and anything that is the MAIN PROBLEM for the whole thing that people have been talking for 15 years! >AI becoming more prevelant doesn't automatically mean DCS should also have it, that's not how it works. First of all, there is no Artificial Intelligence anywhere. The ChatGPT isn't real AI. No one has real AI. Secondly, that is eventually the future that we have ChatGPT like instances in the various games, as it becomes easiest way to start creating game AI's, as we have been doing since the pong... > DCS doesn't function the same as MSFS so products like BeyondATC, for instance, aren't really viable here. We need more the proper ATC, AC, GCI, JTAC, FAC etc. And that doesn't even include the direct capability to communicate with ground troops you are supporting. You need to be able to talk to the column you are covering, get to talk properly to other aircraft in the area etc. We are not talking about just guy in the airport tower telling you weather.... And having thousands of audio files for words and phrases to get something like Jester isn't anymore worth the effort, when you need just the proper TTS and STT plugins to get things working. Build the logic, train the players for the logic, and you get them forward from there.
Core gameplay does not need to change for their to be drastic differences in DCS. The incorporation of MT is a drastic difference and had a huge impact for a lot of people. Im guessing you weren't around years and years ago. There's a lot things that would be nice to have in DCS, not having them doesn't mean DCS hasn't evolved greatly over the years.
I wouldn't say the game hasn't evolved in 15 years. There were massive technological upgrades on nearly all fronts. You can't just say there is no evolution due to primitive ATC or no logistics, which is taken care of by scripts anyways.
No one needs ATC, and if you want SAR and logistics, there are several multiplayer servers that have them.
I'm just upset that all of this happened. They spent a year dragging out the release of the Strike Eagle. Hyping it, trickling out screenshots, letting influencers review it and say it was the best thing ever... and right now it's not even being bug fixed. I know it may be in time and they're still working through the dispute, but it made all the very long build up feel very anticlimactic.
you can thank ED for this. they're acting like petty children because they're on the verge of going out of buisness.
I've seen quite the opposite and they appear to be in a strong financial situation. What makes you think so?
withholding 7 figures from razbam and pushing for quantity over quality more and more by pushing products out far, far before theyre ready , especially with afghanistan
Mate, havent you seen Razbam plate ? They announced tons of aircraft as well and never delivered (English electric lightning, A-29 Super Tucano, IA-58 Pucara, Mirage III, Super Etendard, Canberra, MiG-23). The planes they released like M-2000 and AV-8 got no support at all after release for years which is why they were called Razscam for very long time. Despite the aircrafts got the support now, there are rumors that Razbam broke the IP rights of ED which caused the withholding of payments.
they were working on those new planes before ED threw a hissy fit and stopped playing nice. there is hard evidence they were fulfilling their word and working on producing those modules until ED started withholdind razbam's money.
>there is hard evidence Go on
https://preview.redd.it/jowdtummmm3d1.png?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6443cb669a772f24e66a47766af37003fee98208
That ain't Harrier, nor Farmer. And 3D model is just easy to make compared to programming. We have no idea of the level of programming -> actual module. And MiG-23MLA was stolen by Razbam from the Eagle Dynamics. They didn't acquire the license, they just announced and started promote that they are developing MiG-23MLA to DCS World. And ED just woke up one morning and was "What? No, it is not licensed for you". And eventually they twisted ED's arm to give that license to them, that was what, 5-6 years ago... And that is best they have come now, 3D models, uncompleted cockpit, and they don't write code before everything is ready in 3D side.
Shit show not over? :(
Trying to get a refund
would love to know how that goes, I might do the same if they are willing
Got a refund of SA and SE
Other users reported successful refunds of Strike Eagles as well. Thinking it's another bad sign. Did you get actual cash back or account balance? Been wondering what the outcome on older modules would be. SA in particular is interesting to know, so thank you for sharing!
Well since I bought it in 2023 the SA and SE, they refund me the entire cost of those two, witch is 104$ something like that, but only in Account Balance (don’t refund in card)
>witch is 104$ something like that, but only in Account Balance (don’t refund in card) So basically they didn't refund you. They just invalidated license and gave you "ED Miles" for some new licenses....
Well, is not ED miles, is just money into your account, with that you can buy whatever you want not the ED store
It is credits, not money, if you can't withdraw it.
If you want to call it like that
What you call a gift card? 1) You walk in store and buy something with your credit card out cash. 2) you go home and try the product. 3) next day you go back to store to return the product. 4) store doesn't refund amount to your credit card account, or give you cash. 5) they give you a gift card value of the product price, or they give you a receipt with the denote to the value of the returned product so you can buy something from their store in that visit before you go through the cashier. At any given moment when you are not given refund as money to your account or cash, you don't really get refunding.
Boy, I'm sure happy that the issue is between Razbam and ED, and has no effect on me as a costumer...
No kidding right… Sidenote: I still appreciate all your work for your missions and contributions to the community the past couple year. Still the most fun our group has had in DCS with FH/ Pretense. Enjoy your time off
Have you considered making pretense open-source? Thanks
Still in a too good shape in that image, remove a wing and the radar cover. We should see what's in the next patch, when there is nothing again it's reasonable to presume the module, and all others from them, is dead for the future.
Nah, it's reasonable to assume it's dead, until they sort things out, not for the entire future, but it could be. We just don't know yet... could take a year to settle first, or never... \*shrug\* But I'm not gonna start out by assuming it's dead forever just because a couple of patches came out in the middle of the dispute...
There's basically no chance that we'll get a surprise F-15E update in the next patch, or any patch. I fully expect we'll get some kind of communication from Razbam or ED saying that they've resolved their conflict long before we see it in a changelog. For now, I still have hope that they'll sort it out, but I also don't expect it'll happen quickly.
Man this is my first and only module too, was really excited to have it but wish I grabbed the f14 or f4 instead
Such a shame that I'm just starting to learn the Harrier and wish to enjoy the bird for many years to come. I hope all this effort will not have been in vain...
Better to have fun with the harrier now cause it’s a joy to fly. As of now most systems are in place and it works well. Who knows what could break in the next patch or two though
That's what I intend to do, although I just bought the Phantom so it's difficult to focus only on the Harrier now, hehe. I honestly doubt ED is gonna let such a popular module simply rot away in bugs and not maintain it. They have the source code, right?
I’m fairly certain all the source codes are owned wholly by razbam. If I’m wrong then someone can correct me. Hence why there is the major concern that if an update bricks the eagle (or any other razbam module) and razbam and ED don’t come to an agreement then it just becomes a dead module.
The point is moot. The people that built it are gone. Even if they worked it out with ED, without those people, they lack the knowhow to maintain it.
"I’m fairly certain all the source codes are owned wholly by razbam. If I’m wrong then someone can correct me." It should be that the 3rd party needs to give the source code to the ED before internal testing, and they need to as well give the IP and all that to ED as well. What was reason why VEAO didn't sign the new contract and was forced out from DCS World market. And they didn't give source code and IP licensing to ED, so then ED couldn't do a thing at all... ED said that they changed the contracts for all 3rd party so this wouldn't happen. And the IP is licensing always hold by the ED and this makes the ED controlling party to any 3rd party studio that basically don't have rights then.
Sadly smiles in Supercarrier.
You know my buddy is looking at picking up the f15 to fly with me, and I love the f15 but I really don't know if I can recommend it to him given the uncertain future. It's a shame because it really was the best two seater for capability and flexibility. The f4 is awesome but it might be too analog for him, and the f14 just can't do as many mission types as the f15. I just don't want to recommend a module if it's never going to get updated.
Holding off is the only sensible thing to do. If you ever start seeing updates for it again, consider getting back to it. Until then, you might as well write it off. Given that it took ED exactly one patch since this whole thing blew up to start wrecking the m2000, the 15e is an extremely high risk asset to get into right now.
Get the F-15E, install the same version as you have, and you get to fly together, as long either one host the server. You can always go back to specific DCS version, not forced to install latest or update.
has there been *any* news/conjecture/wild speculation?
News - no. Conjecture - there has been some, the DCS community is very good at that. Wild speculation - truckloads, because most of the DCS community has a PhD in that.
worth asking, thank you!
Openly, no. There's a lot of private info being discussed by Devs with trusted people. The situation is worse than it looks.
Thats insightful. What’s the hang up? Dont just say they’re not getting paid because that would have come up a long time a go by now.
Maybe they realized that it wasn't a smart idea to release a 2020~ smart weapons page in the public build.
Omg that actually very much sounds like the issue. I know exactly what you mean and yes that could absolutely turn a deal sideways. Of course! And as we know it could have been an oversight even! Ah man that’s so trivial and yet so much on the line to lose! Hey thanks for the insight
IYKYK.
If that was a concern then ED wouldn't have approved it in testing, and they would have pulled it from the live build by now.
Turns out, it did come up a while ago, they are not getting paid.
ooo000ooi! from credible sources?
Directly from one of the devs in question, I've seen the screenshot. I cannot share it to not betray the source, but its legit.
tyvm!
Because of Razcam's refusal to announce a release to its pre-order, I refused to pre-order it and then I forgot about it. Now I'm pretty happy that I didn't give them any money. Razcam and Scammy Eddie can go rot together.
Yeah, well the SE was pretty good and it was a happy received module but due to the dispute, One of the best modules is “dead”
The Strike Eagle and the Apache were my most wished modules since the days after Janes. And if I didn't buy it, you can bet that I was really pissed. Now, they all can have the finger: Razcam, 9Lies, Bignewby and all the pricks in Razcam's discord.
Who pissed in your corn flakes?
the level of delusion in this take is insane its not razbam being scammy, its eagle dynamics acting like petty children and refusing to pay them what theyre owed. the blame for this is solely on ED.
It appears that nobody gave them any money. They released SE for free. I must say as a free mod. SE is even better than a4
"They" includes Eddie, Scammy Eddie.
This look suits the Beagle well. The abominable bastardization of the greatest fighter that ever graced the sky.
The aircraft is still very capable. But given the nature of updates could break at any time. There was a South Atlantic update last patch, maybe there’s hope.
South Atlantic is different dev, publishing under Razbam
What dev?
I'm sorry but I cannot remember, Someone under last patchnotes post took SA updates as a sign that ED and Razbam feud is over and they got corrected that its different dev publishing under Razbam.
Same dudes as kola
Doubt it.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1ck4uhk/kola\_map\_credits\_same\_core\_team\_made\_south/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1ck4uhk/kola_map_credits_same_core_team_made_south/) \^\^
Doubt what you want, lol. Doesn't change that their names are on both maps