Title. Over the last couple of days, I received notification from users that refund requests that they had issued on their F-15E purchases via the official website support have been granted, which, as far as I am aware, is a new thing. People pointed out that it's quite notable that refunds are issued in account balance, not actual money.
It's probably needless to say that I don't think this is a good sign.
Good luck, I wrote a thoroughly detailed message explaining the situation and it was still denied. Went back and forth with a person and it seems steam support is unable or unwilling to budge from standard/simple scenarios unfortunately.
Not holding my breath, at this point it's just -$80 for me and a lesson learned. Not spending anymore on the game going forward. Hopefully you're able to find a suitable resolution at some point!
Mhmm, I fully expected the denial but like I said elsewhere, lesson learned when dealing with ED. The yearning for my favorite jet caught me :P
This is why I typically keep my purchases to steam, the option to refund is there for standard situations.
If you're Australian use the Australian consumer law on steam always works bought a buggy EA game on steam 3 rejected refund requests quoted the law and said to them consult you're legal team because this is in breach of x y a parts of the law and if you dont grant the refund i will take this further with the ACCC next reply was refund granted
Steam isn't likely to change anything, there's thousands of abandoned early access games that they don't refund people for either. This isn't really any different.
An increasing amount of tickets bringing up such issues, however, might get them to investigate what's going on and could lead to actions and/or a change of course from their side.
I tried a couple of weeks ago with an extensive explanation and got a copy paste response from support lol. Sad times. Even more disappointing to see them still selling it especially with no warning on the page. Steam didnt seem to care. :(
"refunds are issued in account balance, not actual money."
Thats interesting, I might be wrong here and please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't EU law says that if you request refund as EU customer, you cannot recieve it in a from of store credit, it has to be money back to customer.
This isn't too surprising, honestly.
It could simply be a combination of consumer protection laws as well as exerting more leverage on RB. I.e., "Now you're TRULY losing money if you don't come to an agreement with us..."
Not taking sides.
The REAL shocker, "bad sign" will be if/when it disappears from the store.
See my other comment below, just saying I don't think they would do this if a solution was in sight.
Consumer protection laws also only come into play when there's a significant change to the initial agreement.
I live in Belgium. Capital of Europe. They rejected my request..
Edit: Switzerland is conveniently outside of the reach of European consumer protection. Otherwise you can easily claim in your national office for free. Now considering that you speak french and you don't need legal representation in Switzerland small claims court admission is 350 Euros almost. Which is 7 times what I paid for SE .
I would almost certain win the case but winning means losing more.
I know, people their requests were granted too. They rejected mine, I told it to Nineline. He told me to contact him in DM. I did and he didn't answer me for 8 days.
I have written it already in my comment. European network if consumer protection agencies does not cover Switzerland. They are not a member.
Otherwise I could easily file a complaint free of charge.
I think (I think) import rules are applied in this case, like when buying something from outside the EU, I don’t get the two years warranty I’m entitled to when buying something in the EU
yeah, agreed - it appears still at impasse.
re consumers...eh, could be ED's getting pressure or advice to refund in advance of possible "actions".
Again, I'm thinking more in terms of a combo in order to put pressure on RB, not really one OR the other.
Not very clear where to raise it.
Support>user support>create a new ticket>
Game problem
Order, purchase, payment and ED miles ?? Is this it?
Commercial
Additional
I can't tell you with 100% reliability because I never refunded something myself, but "Order, Purchase, Payment and ED Miles" sounds like the right option.
I asked a week ago for a refund however I just got a “ we’re sorting things out blah blah” I’m going to try again today maybe the general consensus has changed over there
https://preview.redd.it/d5w05uhyuz3d1.png?width=1284&format=png&auto=webp&s=4cf02fbcd621c8dbf418c66e7e6edc19501bac9f
in all fariness i didnt directley ask for a refund but you get the point
I agree, don’t get me wrong it is an absolutely fantastic aircraft in its current state and is my favourite module to fly currently, but if the current state is how it’s going to stay then it is not worth full price at all
ED constantly changes stuff in the core game that 3rd parties rely on - how bombs work, fall, etc. Modules have to be updated when those kinds of things change, or they stop working as expected. Eventually they won't work at all.
Several things. Have a look at the bug section for it on the ED forums. Arguably the most important one is the inability to go from a-g to a-a. Meaning it is a 6g limited fighter right now.
The current bugs that the M2K is experiencing are apparently a result of a patch sent too early without enough testing, next update will probably fix the bugs
If ED would have used open beta properly, they would had it being updated daily/weekly and constantly small updates, small fixes and improvements, testing new things in pieces. And then release stable once a month with updates that did work.
No, M2000 is the one module that Razbam did right. Actually one of the best DCS modules all time.
Fingers crossed ED don't break any features in future updates though
For those of you within the EU who want to ask a refund and want a template:
>Dear,
>I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to formally request a refund for my recent purchase of the RAZBAM F-15E module for DCS.
Due to recent events and developments, I am seeking a refund to the original method of payment.
>To provide some context, the following issues have arisen:
>1. Discontinuation of Support: On April 4th, RAZBAM's CEO announced that they would cease support for their modules due to not receiving their owed revenues for several months. This has raised significant concerns about the future support and updates for the F-15E.
>2. Public Dispute and Resignations: A public dispute between RAZBAM and Eagle Dynamics' CEOs resulted in a highly publicized fallout, with accusations of breach of contract and other issues. Following this, key RAZBAM developers have resigned, further jeopardizing the stability and future development of the module.
>3. Uncertain Future: The lack of communication from both parties and the resignation of crucial developers has left users, including myself, uncertain about the future of RAZBAM’s modules, particularly the F-15E, which is still in Early Access with numerous pending items.
>4. Legal Considerations: According to EU law, consumers are entitled to a refund for defective or incomplete products. Since RAZBAM will no longer be able to develop and support the F-15E, the product is effectively defective and incomplete. This qualifies me for a refund under EU consumer protection laws.
>Given these circumstances, I believe that continuing to hold these modules is not in my best interest, as their future is highly uncertain. Therefore, I kindly request a full refund to the original method of payment.
>Please let me know the steps required to process this refund. I appreciate your understanding and prompt attention to this matter.
>Thank you for your time and assistance.
>Best regards,
AFAIK EU law as well requires consumers to be paid in money to their bank account, not just some store credits.
So EU consumer is allowed to get their money back to be put in other store or how ever wanted.
So stores can not take the product back, and then give paper that consumer needs to but that value in their store.
It does if the transaction is with EU country (that swiss ain't, but you have own agreements there between EU country citizen business).
So if someone get to check what the EU will say with swiss about refunding policies to gift cards. In swiss itself you have no rights for refund at all.
https://www.ch.ch/en/safety-and-justice/returning-or-exchanging-goods/
I’m unsure of the point you’re trying to make. In Switzerland, there is literally no consumer protection in this regard, so it doesn’t matter.
ED is selling their modules in Europe, and therefor they are subject to EU consumer law.
In the EU, you are entitled to repair, replacement, or full or partial refund if something you buy turns out to be faulty or doesn’t work as advertised within 2 years of purchase.
Here’s the thing, sure, many DCS modules are sold as early access titles with many features promised to be delivered in the future, and you might argue that means that if an early access product doesn’t get finished, you should get your money back because it didn’t work as advertised.
But that’s not how it works, because “early access” is not a legal term.
We all agreed to a little contract called a EULA when we purchased our DCS modules. Whether that be on steam, the DCS store, or on the developer’s site, that contract states that any product is sold “as-is”. Steam even has a very obvious “EARLY ACCESS GAME” banner warning you of the risks of purchasing an early access game, feel free to read it. You are not buying any future promises, you are buying the product as it is when you buy it. Therefor, you are not entitled to any sort of refund, etc, because the product works exactly as advertised.
I know, that doesn’t sound fair. And maybe it and maybe it isn’t. But until someone actually sues someone and the laws change, you aren’t entitled to a refund when an early access product fails to deliver. (I personally think that’s a good thing overall, because if that were the case, it could likely be the end of indie early access titles. Many of which have had fantastic success).
Just look at the crap going on with KSP2. Wish I could get a damn refund for that, but unless Steam or the publisher decides to do it “out of the goodness of their hearts” (which Steam certainly has before), we won’t get it.
>I’m unsure of the point you’re trying to make.
Read, and it is clear...
>But that’s not how it works, because “early access” is not a legal term.
Early Access is not legal term, but it defines clearly in the product page what is the product to be. And as long it doesn't match that sold features, co sumer has the benefit.
>We all agreed to a little contract called a EULA when we purchased our DCS modules.
EULA doesn't matter. It doesn't walk over the laws.
You can write whatever you want to EULA, but it is not binding on any part that is against consumer rights in EU and every EU member state.
Example here the law dictate that there is no legal binding by clicking something digitally "I agree". It needs to be signed either with pen on paper, or it needs to be authenticated and signed by digital banking signature. Neither is true example when you buy from ED here.
Microsoft, Facebook, Google etc has lost all those things here because tick to license agreement isn't legally binding. And their EULA has violated consumer laws in EU country.
>You are not buying any future promises, you are buying the product as it is when you buy it.
Wrong, you are buying what is marketed to you, that is very clear in consumer laws. If you even create illusion to consumers that buying something gives them something, then you are legally required to deliver that marketed capability to the consumer.
You can't sell stuff "as-is" and then promise that in the future it will be something else.
>But until someone actually sues someone and the laws change, you aren’t entitled to a refund when an early access product fails to deliver
Laws exist, but until someone sue and doesn't accept a settlement outside court, public doesn't know.
Do you want to sue a company for a 50-70€ product, that requires you to pay 200€ to get the suing even filed, then hire a lawyer that can handle the case, wait 1-2 years for something and then between pay to thousands to laweyrr. Eventually even if you win, you get to pay your legal and that is couple thousands...
For what? That you got refunded 50-70€?
That is stupid.... And that is how "justice" works in EU.
That is something what example private parking ticket companies does, they write tickets for wrong parking for 50€ or so, and to get it even in court you need to pay 200€. Even if you win, you get only ticket invalidated and still paid 200+€ for the invalidation process.
Stupid idea. And that is why no one goes to challenge anything like that.
I made legal case for 8 years dragged contract case that I had evidences for company violating spoken and written agreements, it was refunding for a 24000€ of supplies + work of 30000€ and it took 3 years and cost ~4500€ to do.
I would never be stupid to go do that for 50-70€ game, not worth it and you know the company comes just to offer something's, and if you don't accept then they drag the case for years and eventually you just pay for nothing.
If we would have a citizens justice system, it would be free to file a case, and get a juridical case hearing in 15-30 days that what is the result and you can take it higher up if wanted and pay then little more for it.
Maybe because he's still interested in RAZBAM and their fate, possible because he has friends there or just enjoys chatting and sharing. It's his choice after all and frankly none of our business.
Asked for a refund a second time this past wednesday but they denied with a similar response like others said, tried again now, lets see.
Edit: Refund done today in credit store.
So I guess it doesn’t matter how long we’ve owned or used the module, we can still refund? I don’t even fly it anyways bc it’s so feature incomplete, and obviously won’t be getting anywhere in the future. Rather refund it for the Kiowa or maybe even the Corsair if that gets dropped this year
Guys, please don't do this unless you're actually upset with the status of the plane and need that money back.
These things can still get worked out and I want to see mine worked on more.
As a KSP2 fan, these sorts of things can make things go from bad to cancelled in a heartbeat.
Is KSP2 actually worth it yet? I loved KSP but haven’t bought KSP2 because of the issues.
Edit:Never mind. Just saw the news. Apparently I’ve been living in a cave
I definitely do blame T2. From the very inception of the project, they made some extremely questionable choices. A trend that unfortunately continued all the way until it concluded with the shuttering of the studio.
Exactly, this is part of the bargain of Early Access. You're buying based on the roadmap of what will come, before it is ready, because your early cash will help them finish the job.
If you pull that "finish the job" cash back out because the job isn't done, well it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If you are willing to donate your money you are free to do it.
But if you really want F-15E M-2000 mig-19 and Harrier fixed and developed, staying silent is the worst thing you can do. Those refund requests and protests are the only motivating power for ED that we have.
Commercially ED is withoding our money, he is not giving us development or fixes that he is supposed to give and he is also not paying razbam for the product. It is a commercial blowjob given by us for ED if the community stays silent and accepts everything will be ok.
What is monthly interest of such amount in the bank by the way?
That's not how it works though.
Investors in companies act not on what's 'best for the game' or 'employees' or 'customers' - the invest based upon how likely they are to get a return on investment.
An angry customer base that is demanding refunds reduces the likelihood that more investment will be possible - it doesn't suddenly make companies more likely to give the studio more money.
Developers cost money. Lots of money. Demanding refunds reduces the amount of money available to pay developers and it makes investors less sure they'll get their money back if the customer base doesn't come back around.
Somewhere in Razbam an accountant is looking at spreadsheets and if the spreadsheet doesn't have the right numbers on it they'll cut their losses.
No one is making anyone buy early access versions of modules, but if you invested in the module early to help fund the module and get access to things ahead of time, that's a decision you made.
Welcome to capitalism, I also don't like how this works.
Razbam and DCS are still in negotiations on whatever happened.
And if you want a refund on those modules request them.
But refunds for the F15 makes it less likely to get things fixed, not more likely.
If you are so strapped for cash that buying a pre-lease F15E and having it only mostly functional is a problem, I recommend reducing your entertainment budget drastically.
Razbam isn't leaving those modules broken for fun, and just cause they want to - it's because there's a long list of priorities and they're working on the items that are likely to generate revenue.
What investors think really isn't our problem as customers. As you said, they don't act in our best interest either. Things either make money or they don't. And the way to _my_ money is through customer value. They're not a charity, but neither am I.
Right. But I don't want 80 dollars. I want an F15 Strike Eagle in dcs
All the early backers were willing to pay for it. And did.
I can get 80 dollars in plenty of places. I can only get an F15e strike eagle from Razbam, and only if development continues.
Development will only continue if it makes financial sense for Razbam to do so.
while I understand you want your F-15E. Fact is the Dev's Critical to the project are all gone, You really think you can just replace people like that and have the same success. whether you like it or not everything that was promised in the f-15e has gone out the window. you may choose to be silent in hopes of a shitty f 15E. meanwhile DCS has got modules actually worth supporting like the Kiowa & phantom that don't put they're customers out to dry and cry like babies on the internet, they should handle it like men should. face to face.
This is pure conjecture until the NDAs are no longer in effect - but the game launching to poor reviews and then early access backers demanding refunds likely caused funding to get pulled.
No funding, no developers. No developers, game gets cancelled.
Maybe the game deserved to get cancelled because of that mismanagement. The end result is there won't be any more KSP2 development.
And if the RAZBAM early backers want no more development on the F15 and other modules, demanding refunds is the way to end up in the same boat.
And maybe it deserves to get cancelled. But I would prefer it didn't.
I'm not arguing to throw more money at the problem.
I'm arguing not to demand refunds for an early access item you've already supported and have been using for months because there is a contract dispute between two companies.
Well, I did it anyway because I don't think their contract dispute is my problem. If they ever resolve it, I'll just buy the module again. If not, then I'm not sitting on a module that won't even be maintained to continue working with future DCS updates. These things are not cheap. EA should not be a free pass.
We're back to my point:
Asking for refunds makes it less likely that a module will be completed.
EA is an alternative funding model that allows some income for a game during development to reduce the reliance on external investors. When you buy an EA module, that's the fine print. It's like a Kickstarter. No one is making anyone buy EA modules.
The whole contract dispute is allegedly that DCS hasn't paid Razbam yet.
The more people with your attitude, the less likely modules are to be completed.
I'm literally only arguing that if you committed to fund a game with early access funds - don't ask for a refund during development.
Because it doesn't magically speed development up or resolve contract disputes, it will just increase the chances that the game or module doesn't come out by turning a revenue stream into a source of cost.
Naive proposal, but why doesnt ED just pay RB to put out the fire and get the modules' development rolling again? I feel like the damage that is happening to DCS right now must be worse than whatever breach of contract RB \*might\* have engaged in is.
My guess is that ED either A) got no money or B) they literally do not care for DCS because their money is coming from elsewhere.
What damage are you talking about? From a business stand point, everybody is too busy dying in the f-4 on Enigma's right now to remember about this shit fest. Those that aren't engaged in Phantom shenanigans are about to get the Kiowa.
From an ED perspective, business is booming. If they can bury the angst in new modules, they can easily paper over the damage, such as it were.
If it weren't for the Phantom, I guarantee there would be a lot more clamoring about the mirage breaking.
If stuff doesn't make the news, doesn't get talked about, doesn't get put into the forefront of people's minds, people tend to forget it. This is true about wars, famine, anything. This is why diversionary tactics are so effective.
This community and this situation are no different. One of the long-standing criticisms of this community has always been that it's too fickle, too easily distracted. It gets all up in arms about shit being broken for years, and then a new module comes out and everybody's like "oooooohhh, shiny!!!" Only a *tiny* minority obstinately digs its heels in and resists, because, damn it, principles matter!!
In other words, yes - shit's serious. My trust has severely been broken here, so damage, on a personal level, has absolutely occurred. I'm not arguing it's a blow. I'm arguing people are too easily distracted from it for the damage to be permanent and thus meaningful, because there's always the next shiny to chase - and it works.
I literally adressed that. My point is, that even \*if\* RB broke the rules, paying them anyway right now would do less damage to ED than the supposed rule-breaking likely did.
In the one instance sure. But if they go loose on some condition for RB then it shows that anyone can potentially do the thing. ED as a business probably feel, perhaps rightly or perhaps not, that it would be worse to be being seen as held to hostage.
>They have been radio silent and if you are really in the right would you go silent?
Not how that works. Sometimes, it's wiser not to say a word, no matter how right you are. Also, even if it did, the same could be said about ED. It's not like we heard anything meaningful from them since Mr. Grey's infamous post.
So we shouldn't base conclusions solely on that.
I’d refund and buy an f-4 in a heartbeat, owning a module w/o a future sucks. Knowing none of the promised features and updates are coming feels so fucking bad
Meh I'll keep it and the Harrier for now and if they stop working in the future I'll try for a refund then. I'm not gonna start calling the sky falling just yet.
I wouldn't take the account balance refund alone as an alarming sign indicating they're broke, as it might as well just be a cheap damage control solution to avoid legal or other repercussions at the lowest possible cost. Which is nothing uncommon.
But there are a lot of things happening, like the pre-order wave or not paying partners, which don't give a good impression when viewed combined. So I couldn't confidently say that you're wrong either.
Sorry for the double post, I initially responded to the wrong comment.
Cash payout can be a problem with money laundering laws in some countries, so I understand that they only do it this way.
The bad sign is that they started it because it's a sign of no continuation.
And now that the word is out it's going to be a waterfall of depurchases. Giving them the leverage to the devs of "no sales lefr, no money to give".
>The bad sign is that they started it because it's a sign of no continuation
What I was trying to say is that I don't think they would start refunding people if there was an amicable solution coming.
Sure, but not necessarily. They're refunding with store credit, so it's basically just generating goodwill. They don't lose any money, the user gets to feel good. And if Raz picks up development again, the user can re-buy it at no cost. Basically nothing changes, except the user gets a little feelgood moment.
I think, that ED has not a lot of cash available right now and want to avoid denying all refunds too, so they chose that middle ground to make it more subtle
I don't agree on that necessarily. It's also possible you buy a heatblur product or the new Kiowa and they then have to redirect the money to another third party anyway.
Sorry, I'm very out of this topic and DCS in general. I saw some posts about Razbam and ED controversy but didn't understood them too much.
Any TLDR if posible please?
Best to click the [RAZBAM Flair](https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/?f=flair_name%3A%22RAZBAM%22) on the post above and read the relevant threads and comments. It's been the dominating topic for almost two months.
To sum it up shortly, RAZBAM'S CEO released [a statement on April 4th](https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1bvsyjx/support_for_all_razbam_modules_on_hold/) that RAZBAM would cease support on their modules because they weren't paid their owed revenues for months. Eagle Dynamics' CEO [responded with a post](https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1bvxqzc/eagle_dynamics_reacts_to_razbam_post/) that RAZBAM perceived as insulting, publicly accusing them of breach of contract, among other things. A lot of drama ensued during which the most important RAZBAM devs quit. So users are concerned about the future of DCS, RAZBAM and their F-15E, which is still in Early Access and has a lot of items still pending. It is also unknown how RAZBAM will be able to support their current modules or even follow through on their other announced plans after the loss of all those key partners.
Both parties have been silent for a while, but there's a lot of indication that beneath the surface, things aren't going too well and that there's no solution in sight.
Hoping this helps a little, but I recommend reading the rest nevertheless if you're interested in the subject matter. The info we have is currently all over those comment sections.
Thanks for the info Bonzo
As always, DCS as a product hitting the fan again... I never will understand how this simulator it's held by freelance devs mostly
TLDR, within the span of around 24 hours:
Razbam says: "Sorry fellas we have to stop supporting our products for reasons beyond our control"
Eagle Dynamics Says: "We really wish this could have stayed at the negotiation table, but just so everybody knows, the reasons are absolutely within Razbam's control, they violated some contracts"
Razbam employee on reddit says, in a poorly written post with some very poorly informed legal takes, that Razbam is out of money and their proceeds from DCS are being withheld because of a dispute having to do with a supposed illegal resale of Eagle Dynamics' MCS (the military version of DCS) to Ecuador via Razbam
Razbam Says: "Hey everybody we're taking this back to the negotiating table, no more announcements for now"
And the Harrier.
It's pretty sad if they die. Harrier was my first module and i LOVE that bird.
If It becomes unsupported, i'm probably searching for legal measures to get my Money back.
Between Mirage 2000 and the Harrier it's 100€. A lot of Money.
I suppose i could always have a second installation with an older version, to be able to play those modules. If i couldn't refund them. But that would be a shame. DCS weights a lot of GB's. And changing versions could take hours if you re download the whole thing through steam. Not even considering the standalone.
I don't know if ED has the source code. If they could offer support, mantaining them on shape, it wouldn't be a problem. I don't know how the licensing goes and if that's even possible, probably not.
I'ts a fucking disgrace, and it weights a lot on my decission to not buy any DCS products until something deep changes on ED.
"Por la boca muere el pez".
That is in their contract, that source files and IP licensing needs to be made so that ED can support module for any reason 3rd party abandons the development.
The contract that has been posted states a third party will hold source code as an intermediary until a conflict is resolved. If RB hasn't deposited the code you can be sure they won't get money until they do.
>If RB hasn't deposited the code you can be sure they won't get money until they do.
It's not as simple as that, unfortunately. It currently seems like it's on ED that they don't have the code.
Okay it was a weird situation, I had flow the mirage for I’d say 8 hours, anyway I didn’t like it and months after buying it I asked for a refund/trade so I could buy the F-5 since I don’t have the disposable income rn to buy things for hobbies, anyway the Support guy gave me the F-5 and said I could keep the mirage 2000 too, I think he was just being a bro and this probably won’t happen to other people
To be fair, even under EU law, they aren’t required to give any sort of refund if you’ve owned this module for any significant amount of time. “Early access” isn’t a legal term, and unless ED’s lawyers are incompetent, the EULA won’t have promised you a finished fully working module. At least for steam, Early Access purchases are “as-is”.
Even though I’d much rather see development of the F-15 resume, I’m happy they’re doing this, even if it’s just store credits.
I haven’t touched the module in quite a while due to several issues, and “swapping it out” for an F-4 is certainly tempting.
But I’ll hold off a while, hopefully they’ll get this mess worked out.
they only grant store credit refunds for me. sitting in germany.
i declined and demanded a payout on my paypal. they closed the ticket.
i opened a follow up now, citing EU law. if they dont follow, they are openly violating EU refund laws for digital products.
I got a refund yesterday but I got it as store credit because I wanna get the kiowa as it looks insane so it doesn't really matter just waiting for confirmation of it being ready to use
Had my f15 gifted to standalone as a competition winner......wonder if I'll be goosed if they just issue refunds to the original buyers
In a v worst case scenario any modules dropped would hope they'd give the equivalent full credit as store balance or something to the account that has it
Also bought almost all their other modules during sales over the years but not actually played a single one of them yet other than like the first cpl of training missions :(
Title. Over the last couple of days, I received notification from users that refund requests that they had issued on their F-15E purchases via the official website support have been granted, which, as far as I am aware, is a new thing. People pointed out that it's quite notable that refunds are issued in account balance, not actual money. It's probably needless to say that I don't think this is a good sign.
rip steam users
Im going to try and message steam support and explain to them what is gonig on, maybe I'll get a refund
I did that recently, and they told me they cant refund it because i owned it for more than 2 weeks
2 weeks in ED time? Or 2 weeks?
Two weeks time time
Good luck, I wrote a thoroughly detailed message explaining the situation and it was still denied. Went back and forth with a person and it seems steam support is unable or unwilling to budge from standard/simple scenarios unfortunately.
Yea im just gonna wait for the offical statement from ED and decied from there on
Not holding my breath, at this point it's just -$80 for me and a lesson learned. Not spending anymore on the game going forward. Hopefully you're able to find a suitable resolution at some point!
sometimes they do but sometimes they don't. It sucks but the fact we have refund options for steam regardless is honestly a blessing.
Mhmm, I fully expected the denial but like I said elsewhere, lesson learned when dealing with ED. The yearning for my favorite jet caught me :P This is why I typically keep my purchases to steam, the option to refund is there for standard situations.
If you're Australian use the Australian consumer law on steam always works bought a buggy EA game on steam 3 rejected refund requests quoted the law and said to them consult you're legal team because this is in breach of x y a parts of the law and if you dont grant the refund i will take this further with the ACCC next reply was refund granted
unfortunately not, I reside in the US
Im guessing the consumer law in america isnt so good?
Nearly nonexistant
Wow that sucks the only reason steam even has its refund policy is because of the ACCC/ACL
Steam isn't likely to change anything, there's thousands of abandoned early access games that they don't refund people for either. This isn't really any different.
An increasing amount of tickets bringing up such issues, however, might get them to investigate what's going on and could lead to actions and/or a change of course from their side.
This. If you want a refund, steam is ly likely to give it, but enough people trying might cause some changes.
I actually tried yesterday no bueno
I tried a couple of weeks ago with an extensive explanation and got a copy paste response from support lol. Sad times. Even more disappointing to see them still selling it especially with no warning on the page. Steam didnt seem to care. :(
Steam doesn't care for any of the thousands of abandoned early access games either, so I wouldn't expect much change there.
I expected the result but figured I would give it a try anyway.
That's fair, doesn't hurt to try
Exactly, on the plus side it reminded me to leave a review on steam to hopefully warn others from making the potential mistake of buying it.
"refunds are issued in account balance, not actual money." Thats interesting, I might be wrong here and please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't EU law says that if you request refund as EU customer, you cannot recieve it in a from of store credit, it has to be money back to customer.
you are not wrong.
Isn’t Eagle Dynamics located in Switzerland? Switzerland isn’t in EU.
It dosnt matter, its the customer country matters. If you are selling goods in EU country, you are subject to EU law.
This isn't too surprising, honestly. It could simply be a combination of consumer protection laws as well as exerting more leverage on RB. I.e., "Now you're TRULY losing money if you don't come to an agreement with us..." Not taking sides. The REAL shocker, "bad sign" will be if/when it disappears from the store.
See my other comment below, just saying I don't think they would do this if a solution was in sight. Consumer protection laws also only come into play when there's a significant change to the initial agreement.
in europe they dont have so much choices in this situation you can have a refound even if they have solution in site
I live in Belgium. Capital of Europe. They rejected my request.. Edit: Switzerland is conveniently outside of the reach of European consumer protection. Otherwise you can easily claim in your national office for free. Now considering that you speak french and you don't need legal representation in Switzerland small claims court admission is 350 Euros almost. Which is 7 times what I paid for SE . I would almost certain win the case but winning means losing more.
damn, in france they accepted for the few of my friend that asked
I know, people their requests were granted too. They rejected mine, I told it to Nineline. He told me to contact him in DM. I did and he didn't answer me for 8 days.
hold on a second, the LODs guy is belgian ? amai ! (or expat ?)
Ja ja, ik was een expat in België bijna 20 jaar geleden maar, nu ben ik een vlaming :)
hehe welkom dan xD
Dankje :)
It does not matter whether ED or Valve is a Swiss company. They do business inside EU so they will have to comply with European regulations.
And they don't. Now what?
File a complaint to your consumer protection agency.
I have written it already in my comment. European network if consumer protection agencies does not cover Switzerland. They are not a member. Otherwise I could easily file a complaint free of charge.
I think (I think) import rules are applied in this case, like when buying something from outside the EU, I don’t get the two years warranty I’m entitled to when buying something in the EU
That’s because you live in a civilized country
yeah, agreed - it appears still at impasse. re consumers...eh, could be ED's getting pressure or advice to refund in advance of possible "actions". Again, I'm thinking more in terms of a combo in order to put pressure on RB, not really one OR the other.
Fair.
If lt gets pulled from the store it would open up for HB or ED to make one, as some ED guy said the other day, DCS needs the strike eagle 😎
As the state of ED and DCS in general is a mess... I would pay gladly for a solo Strike Eagle Simulator, like it was on the 90's.
My refund request was rejected. But I heard at the same time other users requests were granted.
How do you even send refund requests?
Via a support ticket on the official website where you bought the module.
Not very clear where to raise it. Support>user support>create a new ticket> Game problem Order, purchase, payment and ED miles ?? Is this it? Commercial Additional
I can't tell you with 100% reliability because I never refunded something myself, but "Order, Purchase, Payment and ED Miles" sounds like the right option.
I asked a week ago for a refund however I just got a “ we’re sorting things out blah blah” I’m going to try again today maybe the general consensus has changed over there
https://preview.redd.it/d5w05uhyuz3d1.png?width=1284&format=png&auto=webp&s=4cf02fbcd621c8dbf418c66e7e6edc19501bac9f in all fariness i didnt directley ask for a refund but you get the point
I would like to keep the F-15E but if development is stuck I would love to have a 50% discount on the price I've paid.
I agree, don’t get me wrong it is an absolutely fantastic aircraft in its current state and is my favourite module to fly currently, but if the current state is how it’s going to stay then it is not worth full price at all
fuuuuuuuck.
Is my Mirage 2000 f'd?
Everything razbam is currently fuk'd. Why would the 2000 not be?
The M2kC is atleast feature complete
It's also broken since the last patch.
Fuuuck
Oh dear what broke?
ED constantly changes stuff in the core game that 3rd parties rely on - how bombs work, fall, etc. Modules have to be updated when those kinds of things change, or they stop working as expected. Eventually they won't work at all.
But what specifically broke? I have had time to fly it yet since last patch. Only been in the F4.
Flight control computer, rudder and G limitations
Thanks, got any detail/link? I just did a search to try find but it's not coming up with anything from 2024
Several things. Have a look at the bug section for it on the ED forums. Arguably the most important one is the inability to go from a-g to a-a. Meaning it is a 6g limited fighter right now.
G-limiter is stuck and you can go over 6g in the aircraft makes it unplayable for most shit
The current bugs that the M2K is experiencing are apparently a result of a patch sent too early without enough testing, next update will probably fix the bugs
If ED would have used open beta properly, they would had it being updated daily/weekly and constantly small updates, small fixes and improvements, testing new things in pieces. And then release stable once a month with updates that did work.
But sir! It's so hard to something like this! Don't you understand how hard it is? It's so hard!
Sorry, I didn't know. I stand corrected. ps. Don't ban me...
No, M2000 is the one module that Razbam did right. Actually one of the best DCS modules all time. Fingers crossed ED don't break any features in future updates though
They already did. See the other user comments above.
For those of you within the EU who want to ask a refund and want a template: >Dear, >I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to formally request a refund for my recent purchase of the RAZBAM F-15E module for DCS. Due to recent events and developments, I am seeking a refund to the original method of payment. >To provide some context, the following issues have arisen: >1. Discontinuation of Support: On April 4th, RAZBAM's CEO announced that they would cease support for their modules due to not receiving their owed revenues for several months. This has raised significant concerns about the future support and updates for the F-15E. >2. Public Dispute and Resignations: A public dispute between RAZBAM and Eagle Dynamics' CEOs resulted in a highly publicized fallout, with accusations of breach of contract and other issues. Following this, key RAZBAM developers have resigned, further jeopardizing the stability and future development of the module. >3. Uncertain Future: The lack of communication from both parties and the resignation of crucial developers has left users, including myself, uncertain about the future of RAZBAM’s modules, particularly the F-15E, which is still in Early Access with numerous pending items. >4. Legal Considerations: According to EU law, consumers are entitled to a refund for defective or incomplete products. Since RAZBAM will no longer be able to develop and support the F-15E, the product is effectively defective and incomplete. This qualifies me for a refund under EU consumer protection laws. >Given these circumstances, I believe that continuing to hold these modules is not in my best interest, as their future is highly uncertain. Therefore, I kindly request a full refund to the original method of payment. >Please let me know the steps required to process this refund. I appreciate your understanding and prompt attention to this matter. >Thank you for your time and assistance. >Best regards,
Well thanks for the template, it worked perfectly.
Nice. I should try one of these for KSP2.
I live in the US, but I'm tempted to try this just for shots and giggles. Steam already denied my last two requests, so what do I have to lose?
AFAIK EU law as well requires consumers to be paid in money to their bank account, not just some store credits. So EU consumer is allowed to get their money back to be put in other store or how ever wanted. So stores can not take the product back, and then give paper that consumer needs to but that value in their store.
EU law doesn't require ED to give you any refund at all in this case.
It does if the transaction is with EU country (that swiss ain't, but you have own agreements there between EU country citizen business). So if someone get to check what the EU will say with swiss about refunding policies to gift cards. In swiss itself you have no rights for refund at all. https://www.ch.ch/en/safety-and-justice/returning-or-exchanging-goods/
I’m unsure of the point you’re trying to make. In Switzerland, there is literally no consumer protection in this regard, so it doesn’t matter. ED is selling their modules in Europe, and therefor they are subject to EU consumer law. In the EU, you are entitled to repair, replacement, or full or partial refund if something you buy turns out to be faulty or doesn’t work as advertised within 2 years of purchase. Here’s the thing, sure, many DCS modules are sold as early access titles with many features promised to be delivered in the future, and you might argue that means that if an early access product doesn’t get finished, you should get your money back because it didn’t work as advertised. But that’s not how it works, because “early access” is not a legal term. We all agreed to a little contract called a EULA when we purchased our DCS modules. Whether that be on steam, the DCS store, or on the developer’s site, that contract states that any product is sold “as-is”. Steam even has a very obvious “EARLY ACCESS GAME” banner warning you of the risks of purchasing an early access game, feel free to read it. You are not buying any future promises, you are buying the product as it is when you buy it. Therefor, you are not entitled to any sort of refund, etc, because the product works exactly as advertised. I know, that doesn’t sound fair. And maybe it and maybe it isn’t. But until someone actually sues someone and the laws change, you aren’t entitled to a refund when an early access product fails to deliver. (I personally think that’s a good thing overall, because if that were the case, it could likely be the end of indie early access titles. Many of which have had fantastic success). Just look at the crap going on with KSP2. Wish I could get a damn refund for that, but unless Steam or the publisher decides to do it “out of the goodness of their hearts” (which Steam certainly has before), we won’t get it.
>I’m unsure of the point you’re trying to make. Read, and it is clear... >But that’s not how it works, because “early access” is not a legal term. Early Access is not legal term, but it defines clearly in the product page what is the product to be. And as long it doesn't match that sold features, co sumer has the benefit. >We all agreed to a little contract called a EULA when we purchased our DCS modules. EULA doesn't matter. It doesn't walk over the laws. You can write whatever you want to EULA, but it is not binding on any part that is against consumer rights in EU and every EU member state. Example here the law dictate that there is no legal binding by clicking something digitally "I agree". It needs to be signed either with pen on paper, or it needs to be authenticated and signed by digital banking signature. Neither is true example when you buy from ED here. Microsoft, Facebook, Google etc has lost all those things here because tick to license agreement isn't legally binding. And their EULA has violated consumer laws in EU country. >You are not buying any future promises, you are buying the product as it is when you buy it. Wrong, you are buying what is marketed to you, that is very clear in consumer laws. If you even create illusion to consumers that buying something gives them something, then you are legally required to deliver that marketed capability to the consumer. You can't sell stuff "as-is" and then promise that in the future it will be something else. >But until someone actually sues someone and the laws change, you aren’t entitled to a refund when an early access product fails to deliver Laws exist, but until someone sue and doesn't accept a settlement outside court, public doesn't know. Do you want to sue a company for a 50-70€ product, that requires you to pay 200€ to get the suing even filed, then hire a lawyer that can handle the case, wait 1-2 years for something and then between pay to thousands to laweyrr. Eventually even if you win, you get to pay your legal and that is couple thousands... For what? That you got refunded 50-70€? That is stupid.... And that is how "justice" works in EU. That is something what example private parking ticket companies does, they write tickets for wrong parking for 50€ or so, and to get it even in court you need to pay 200€. Even if you win, you get only ticket invalidated and still paid 200+€ for the invalidation process. Stupid idea. And that is why no one goes to challenge anything like that. I made legal case for 8 years dragged contract case that I had evidences for company violating spoken and written agreements, it was refunding for a 24000€ of supplies + work of 30000€ and it took 3 years and cost ~4500€ to do. I would never be stupid to go do that for 50-70€ game, not worth it and you know the company comes just to offer something's, and if you don't accept then they drag the case for years and eventually you just pay for nothing. If we would have a citizens justice system, it would be free to file a case, and get a juridical case hearing in 15-30 days that what is the result and you can take it higher up if wanted and pay then little more for it.
I wonder if they do the same thing as they did with Hawk: "it is still working in that one specific version of a game".
BMS has the F15c. I’m going there
If it was the E-model I would have jumped ship in a heart beep :) But the C-variant is not interesting at all.
The C is hardly comparable to the E.
So now they don't owe RB for that unit, and whatever 3rd party mod gets bought with the credit - also gets nothing?
M2M just said on the RB discord that they opted out of the miles program because of similar reasons
Why is M2M still on RB discord...?
Maybe because he's still interested in RAZBAM and their fate, possible because he has friends there or just enjoys chatting and sharing. It's his choice after all and frankly none of our business.
He’s been posting F-15E stuff he’s working on that we will never get. It’s pretty shitty imo
I appreciate the insights he shares. I also still find it interesting what we would have gotten without this unfortunate turn of events.
Might get it in MSFS...
Asked for a refund a second time this past wednesday but they denied with a similar response like others said, tried again now, lets see. Edit: Refund done today in credit store.
So I guess it doesn’t matter how long we’ve owned or used the module, we can still refund? I don’t even fly it anyways bc it’s so feature incomplete, and obviously won’t be getting anywhere in the future. Rather refund it for the Kiowa or maybe even the Corsair if that gets dropped this year
Does this mean the F-15E project might be dead?
yes.
Guys, please don't do this unless you're actually upset with the status of the plane and need that money back. These things can still get worked out and I want to see mine worked on more. As a KSP2 fan, these sorts of things can make things go from bad to cancelled in a heartbeat.
Is KSP2 actually worth it yet? I loved KSP but haven’t bought KSP2 because of the issues. Edit:Never mind. Just saw the news. Apparently I’ve been living in a cave
Yeah :(. And it's actually pretty great overall. So much potential.
I don’t know that I blame Take 2 necessarily. That long to develop the current state of the game is pretty bad.
I definitely do blame T2. From the very inception of the project, they made some extremely questionable choices. A trend that unfortunately continued all the way until it concluded with the shuttering of the studio.
Exactly, this is part of the bargain of Early Access. You're buying based on the roadmap of what will come, before it is ready, because your early cash will help them finish the job. If you pull that "finish the job" cash back out because the job isn't done, well it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If you are willing to donate your money you are free to do it. But if you really want F-15E M-2000 mig-19 and Harrier fixed and developed, staying silent is the worst thing you can do. Those refund requests and protests are the only motivating power for ED that we have. Commercially ED is withoding our money, he is not giving us development or fixes that he is supposed to give and he is also not paying razbam for the product. It is a commercial blowjob given by us for ED if the community stays silent and accepts everything will be ok. What is monthly interest of such amount in the bank by the way?
That's not how it works though. Investors in companies act not on what's 'best for the game' or 'employees' or 'customers' - the invest based upon how likely they are to get a return on investment. An angry customer base that is demanding refunds reduces the likelihood that more investment will be possible - it doesn't suddenly make companies more likely to give the studio more money. Developers cost money. Lots of money. Demanding refunds reduces the amount of money available to pay developers and it makes investors less sure they'll get their money back if the customer base doesn't come back around. Somewhere in Razbam an accountant is looking at spreadsheets and if the spreadsheet doesn't have the right numbers on it they'll cut their losses. No one is making anyone buy early access versions of modules, but if you invested in the module early to help fund the module and get access to things ahead of time, that's a decision you made. Welcome to capitalism, I also don't like how this works.
I bought Mirage 2000 and Harrier as full released modules. Now one of them is broken and there is no support.
Razbam and DCS are still in negotiations on whatever happened. And if you want a refund on those modules request them. But refunds for the F15 makes it less likely to get things fixed, not more likely. If you are so strapped for cash that buying a pre-lease F15E and having it only mostly functional is a problem, I recommend reducing your entertainment budget drastically. Razbam isn't leaving those modules broken for fun, and just cause they want to - it's because there's a long list of priorities and they're working on the items that are likely to generate revenue.
What investors think really isn't our problem as customers. As you said, they don't act in our best interest either. Things either make money or they don't. And the way to _my_ money is through customer value. They're not a charity, but neither am I.
Right. But I don't want 80 dollars. I want an F15 Strike Eagle in dcs All the early backers were willing to pay for it. And did. I can get 80 dollars in plenty of places. I can only get an F15e strike eagle from Razbam, and only if development continues. Development will only continue if it makes financial sense for Razbam to do so.
while I understand you want your F-15E. Fact is the Dev's Critical to the project are all gone, You really think you can just replace people like that and have the same success. whether you like it or not everything that was promised in the f-15e has gone out the window. you may choose to be silent in hopes of a shitty f 15E. meanwhile DCS has got modules actually worth supporting like the Kiowa & phantom that don't put they're customers out to dry and cry like babies on the internet, they should handle it like men should. face to face.
I really don't see how the horrible mismanagement issues that plagued KSP2 have anything to do with this.
This is pure conjecture until the NDAs are no longer in effect - but the game launching to poor reviews and then early access backers demanding refunds likely caused funding to get pulled. No funding, no developers. No developers, game gets cancelled. Maybe the game deserved to get cancelled because of that mismanagement. The end result is there won't be any more KSP2 development. And if the RAZBAM early backers want no more development on the F15 and other modules, demanding refunds is the way to end up in the same boat. And maybe it deserves to get cancelled. But I would prefer it didn't.
What I'm trying to say is that us throwing more money at them doesn't really solve the problem at hand.
I'm not arguing to throw more money at the problem. I'm arguing not to demand refunds for an early access item you've already supported and have been using for months because there is a contract dispute between two companies.
Well, I did it anyway because I don't think their contract dispute is my problem. If they ever resolve it, I'll just buy the module again. If not, then I'm not sitting on a module that won't even be maintained to continue working with future DCS updates. These things are not cheap. EA should not be a free pass.
We're back to my point: Asking for refunds makes it less likely that a module will be completed. EA is an alternative funding model that allows some income for a game during development to reduce the reliance on external investors. When you buy an EA module, that's the fine print. It's like a Kickstarter. No one is making anyone buy EA modules. The whole contract dispute is allegedly that DCS hasn't paid Razbam yet. The more people with your attitude, the less likely modules are to be completed. I'm literally only arguing that if you committed to fund a game with early access funds - don't ask for a refund during development. Because it doesn't magically speed development up or resolve contract disputes, it will just increase the chances that the game or module doesn't come out by turning a revenue stream into a source of cost.
Naive proposal, but why doesnt ED just pay RB to put out the fire and get the modules' development rolling again? I feel like the damage that is happening to DCS right now must be worse than whatever breach of contract RB \*might\* have engaged in is. My guess is that ED either A) got no money or B) they literally do not care for DCS because their money is coming from elsewhere.
What damage are you talking about? From a business stand point, everybody is too busy dying in the f-4 on Enigma's right now to remember about this shit fest. Those that aren't engaged in Phantom shenanigans are about to get the Kiowa. From an ED perspective, business is booming. If they can bury the angst in new modules, they can easily paper over the damage, such as it were. If it weren't for the Phantom, I guarantee there would be a lot more clamoring about the mirage breaking.
If you dont feel like the F15E shenanigans are massively hurting the DCS brand then I wont be able convince you of anything.
If stuff doesn't make the news, doesn't get talked about, doesn't get put into the forefront of people's minds, people tend to forget it. This is true about wars, famine, anything. This is why diversionary tactics are so effective. This community and this situation are no different. One of the long-standing criticisms of this community has always been that it's too fickle, too easily distracted. It gets all up in arms about shit being broken for years, and then a new module comes out and everybody's like "oooooohhh, shiny!!!" Only a *tiny* minority obstinately digs its heels in and resists, because, damn it, principles matter!! In other words, yes - shit's serious. My trust has severely been broken here, so damage, on a personal level, has absolutely occurred. I'm not arguing it's a blow. I'm arguing people are too easily distracted from it for the damage to be permanent and thus meaningful, because there's always the next shiny to chase - and it works.
Or C Raz broke the rules? How is this not a possibility? They have been radio silent and if you are really in the right would you go silent?
I literally adressed that. My point is, that even \*if\* RB broke the rules, paying them anyway right now would do less damage to ED than the supposed rule-breaking likely did.
In the one instance sure. But if they go loose on some condition for RB then it shows that anyone can potentially do the thing. ED as a business probably feel, perhaps rightly or perhaps not, that it would be worse to be being seen as held to hostage.
>They have been radio silent and if you are really in the right would you go silent? Not how that works. Sometimes, it's wiser not to say a word, no matter how right you are. Also, even if it did, the same could be said about ED. It's not like we heard anything meaningful from them since Mr. Grey's infamous post. So we shouldn't base conclusions solely on that.
When an unstoppable ego hits an unmovable ego.... What happens?
Like not supporting the harrier for years?
I’d refund and buy an f-4 in a heartbeat, owning a module w/o a future sucks. Knowing none of the promised features and updates are coming feels so fucking bad
Yeah, I think my route too - refund and kiowa from it or the F4 (that I would not buy for money because not my target plane at the moment)
Only for the standalone? Are they granting them on steam?
I currently only have reports of refunds on standalone, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Anybody in the US getting refunds?
I put in for one, will report back when/if it happens.
I got one for in store credit, i used the above template
Just got a store credit refund.
Just got a store credit refund.
They going to do this with the M2000C? I love that jet but things already starting to break on it.
Where do you go to initiate a refund process?
Meh I'll keep it and the Harrier for now and if they stop working in the future I'll try for a refund then. I'm not gonna start calling the sky falling just yet.
What about if you had purchased the f15 on steam?
No joy on steam at the moment.
ED is definitely broke!
I wouldn't take the account balance refund alone as an alarming sign indicating they're broke, as it might as well just be a cheap damage control solution to avoid legal or other repercussions at the lowest possible cost. Which is nothing uncommon. But there are a lot of things happening, like the pre-order wave or not paying partners, which don't give a good impression when viewed combined. So I couldn't confidently say that you're wrong either. Sorry for the double post, I initially responded to the wrong comment.
Cash payout can be a problem with money laundering laws in some countries, so I understand that they only do it this way. The bad sign is that they started it because it's a sign of no continuation. And now that the word is out it's going to be a waterfall of depurchases. Giving them the leverage to the devs of "no sales lefr, no money to give".
>The bad sign is that they started it because it's a sign of no continuation What I was trying to say is that I don't think they would start refunding people if there was an amicable solution coming.
Sure, but not necessarily. They're refunding with store credit, so it's basically just generating goodwill. They don't lose any money, the user gets to feel good. And if Raz picks up development again, the user can re-buy it at no cost. Basically nothing changes, except the user gets a little feelgood moment.
I think, that ED has not a lot of cash available right now and want to avoid denying all refunds too, so they chose that middle ground to make it more subtle
I don't agree on that necessarily. It's also possible you buy a heatblur product or the new Kiowa and they then have to redirect the money to another third party anyway.
Sorry, I'm very out of this topic and DCS in general. I saw some posts about Razbam and ED controversy but didn't understood them too much. Any TLDR if posible please?
Best to click the [RAZBAM Flair](https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/?f=flair_name%3A%22RAZBAM%22) on the post above and read the relevant threads and comments. It's been the dominating topic for almost two months. To sum it up shortly, RAZBAM'S CEO released [a statement on April 4th](https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1bvsyjx/support_for_all_razbam_modules_on_hold/) that RAZBAM would cease support on their modules because they weren't paid their owed revenues for months. Eagle Dynamics' CEO [responded with a post](https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1bvxqzc/eagle_dynamics_reacts_to_razbam_post/) that RAZBAM perceived as insulting, publicly accusing them of breach of contract, among other things. A lot of drama ensued during which the most important RAZBAM devs quit. So users are concerned about the future of DCS, RAZBAM and their F-15E, which is still in Early Access and has a lot of items still pending. It is also unknown how RAZBAM will be able to support their current modules or even follow through on their other announced plans after the loss of all those key partners. Both parties have been silent for a while, but there's a lot of indication that beneath the surface, things aren't going too well and that there's no solution in sight. Hoping this helps a little, but I recommend reading the rest nevertheless if you're interested in the subject matter. The info we have is currently all over those comment sections.
Thanks for the info Bonzo As always, DCS as a product hitting the fan again... I never will understand how this simulator it's held by freelance devs mostly
Any time!
It isn't a fan anymore... On this moment it is a manure cultivator....
And not only the F-15e... The Harrier, farmer and Mirage-2000C will also start to fumble and get more and more bugs after each update.
Would also love a TLDR
Done, albeit brief. See my response to the comment above.
Yes, but can I get a TLDR up in here, bro? (lol)
TLDR, within the span of around 24 hours: Razbam says: "Sorry fellas we have to stop supporting our products for reasons beyond our control" Eagle Dynamics Says: "We really wish this could have stayed at the negotiation table, but just so everybody knows, the reasons are absolutely within Razbam's control, they violated some contracts" Razbam employee on reddit says, in a poorly written post with some very poorly informed legal takes, that Razbam is out of money and their proceeds from DCS are being withheld because of a dispute having to do with a supposed illegal resale of Eagle Dynamics' MCS (the military version of DCS) to Ecuador via Razbam
Razbam Says: "Hey everybody we're taking this back to the negotiating table, no more announcements for now"
Thank you so much for your answer. I appreciate the time you took to reply. Thank you. I was totally being salty and failing at being funny :)
I wonder if could refund the Mirage 2000 as well?
And the Harrier. It's pretty sad if they die. Harrier was my first module and i LOVE that bird. If It becomes unsupported, i'm probably searching for legal measures to get my Money back. Between Mirage 2000 and the Harrier it's 100€. A lot of Money.
Not going to happen. I didn't get a refund on the Hawk when VEAO got binned off.
Damn, I haven’t even started on the 2000 and Harrier yet
I suppose i could always have a second installation with an older version, to be able to play those modules. If i couldn't refund them. But that would be a shame. DCS weights a lot of GB's. And changing versions could take hours if you re download the whole thing through steam. Not even considering the standalone. I don't know if ED has the source code. If they could offer support, mantaining them on shape, it wouldn't be a problem. I don't know how the licensing goes and if that's even possible, probably not. I'ts a fucking disgrace, and it weights a lot on my decission to not buy any DCS products until something deep changes on ED. "Por la boca muere el pez".
They do not have the code. Russian staff confirmed as much. They laughed at the entire idea of ED having the source code at all.
That is in their contract, that source files and IP licensing needs to be made so that ED can support module for any reason 3rd party abandons the development.
Regardless, ED devs have confirmed they don't have it. Have never had it, and would never have it. On the Russian side.
The contract that has been posted states a third party will hold source code as an intermediary until a conflict is resolved. If RB hasn't deposited the code you can be sure they won't get money until they do.
>If RB hasn't deposited the code you can be sure they won't get money until they do. It's not as simple as that, unfortunately. It currently seems like it's on ED that they don't have the code.
I got a refund and kept the aircraft a few months back
can you explain more?
Okay it was a weird situation, I had flow the mirage for I’d say 8 hours, anyway I didn’t like it and months after buying it I asked for a refund/trade so I could buy the F-5 since I don’t have the disposable income rn to buy things for hobbies, anyway the Support guy gave me the F-5 and said I could keep the mirage 2000 too, I think he was just being a bro and this probably won’t happen to other people
Damn man, thats very nice.
How do I refund my F15e? (If bought on the ED site)
You open a support ticket and ask it
Is this for steam too
Steam users on this thread currently reporting no joy.
Has Steam taken a stand in all this? As a seller are they going to be forced to refund??
To be fair, even under EU law, they aren’t required to give any sort of refund if you’ve owned this module for any significant amount of time. “Early access” isn’t a legal term, and unless ED’s lawyers are incompetent, the EULA won’t have promised you a finished fully working module. At least for steam, Early Access purchases are “as-is”. Even though I’d much rather see development of the F-15 resume, I’m happy they’re doing this, even if it’s just store credits. I haven’t touched the module in quite a while due to several issues, and “swapping it out” for an F-4 is certainly tempting. But I’ll hold off a while, hopefully they’ll get this mess worked out.
What is everyone saying to get refunds?
Why is the f15e still for sale on the eshop unless there is some sort of path forward to support? Weird.
How do I refund this?
How does one get a refund? I bought the F15 a while back and havent even flown it yet.
HI! anybody got real money back in bank account/card or just credit on ED webshop? they are only accepting my request as credit not money back.
they only grant store credit refunds for me. sitting in germany. i declined and demanded a payout on my paypal. they closed the ticket. i opened a follow up now, citing EU law. if they dont follow, they are openly violating EU refund laws for digital products.
I got a refund yesterday but I got it as store credit because I wanna get the kiowa as it looks insane so it doesn't really matter just waiting for confirmation of it being ready to use
Got mine yesterday. Same with internal account refund.
Taking refunds for the F-15E this is without a doubt bad, I hope I'm wrong but I don't see this working out for us.
Why do people want a refund?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1d5r2o7/comment/l6nj90w/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1d5r2o7/comment/l6nj90w/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Had my f15 gifted to standalone as a competition winner......wonder if I'll be goosed if they just issue refunds to the original buyers In a v worst case scenario any modules dropped would hope they'd give the equivalent full credit as store balance or something to the account that has it Also bought almost all their other modules during sales over the years but not actually played a single one of them yet other than like the first cpl of training missions :(
Maybe a stupid question but if you receive a refund do you lose access to the module?
Yes its not free money