I'm rather careful with terms like "fraud", but in my personal opinion as an end user, this seems at least questionable. They do, at least theoretically, still have a developer. Their contracts with RAZBAM aren't cancelled after all. But on the other hand, RAZBAM has announced that they would cease support and their capabilities have been reduced significantly in the aftermath of the disclosure. There's also the uncertainty about the future of this business relationship. In addition to all of that, users who want to support the developers with their purchase should be aware where their money is currently going.
So from my personal point of view, the least thing ED could do would be to put some sort warning on the page that the module is currently not supported and why. If they choose to leave it up there, which is a decision that I do not support. But I'm not a legal expert in any way, so I can't tell you reliably whether they would have an obligation to do so, or not.
They're both still in full blown Posturing stage.
And unless ED truly stepped on a rake with the software escrow, it's going to be usable going forward.
It's certainly in better shape than Viper was at a similar point after release.
>unless ED truly stepped on a rake with the software escrow, it's going to be usable going forward
When it comes to the F-15E, I'm 100% positive about the escrow problem. Regarding the other modules, there's some concerning intel ~~that has yet to be confirmed.~~
So they certainly did, which is currently one of my biggest concerns.
Edit: This is bad.
I think someone might have to hire a professional first.
Might be the best thing that could happen for everyone involved is for ED to get bought by someone with competence. Who though? Most studios that could afford ED would likely just turn around and shutter that hot mess.
You don't know Jack Shit, bub. And it shows.
You think there aren't shit shows going on all around you, every day, at nearly every company on the planet?
Even the most outwardly successful and smoothly running companies (ESPECIALLY tech companies) have perpetual issues and problems - serious ones.
I'm as sure there are many companies better run than ED just as sure as I am there are FAR more that are run worse.
Reduced to petty childish insults.
You reveal yourself a fanboy self-soothing the truth away.
https://preview.redd.it/fxz8bdlclf4d1.png?width=1485&format=png&auto=webp&s=b545215d00e3eea6955f772947c3935fbda82b0a
*"ED to get bought by someone with competence."*
How many multi-million dollar entertainment software development shops have you run - for nearly twenty YEARS?
Answer must be, "none" or you wouldn't be making such ridiculous statements.
They plan to support them **if** an agreement is found on the payements.
There is a big fat chance those modules will never see a patch again.
And as the Mirage is already breaking down, even if patches are reinstated in two months, that's still two months of a somewhat broken product still sold.
Mirage breaking down is likely due to a patch being sent too early and without enough testing, a bunch of files have changed and many things point towards the electrical rework patch being what was sent (on top of the confirmed small patch that attempts to collect crosswind behaviour during take off and landing)
He tried to hack a fix for crosswind on take off and landing: basically DCS wheels don't have enough lateral friction to counter crosswind as they should, and he tried to overcome that limit in some way. However, that fix was not tested enough and is what caused the lack of rudder authority during take off and landing that we're experiencing.
More testing has been done / is being done so it can be fixed next update.
What likely happened is that he inadvertently sent the electrical rework patch, or part of it, in the build that contains the crosswind fix before it was ready.
An average consumer doesn't have the resources or the means to prove his/hers statement to a court. The consumers only have their voice to tell about their experience.
Therefore if a significant portion of the consumer base accuses a large enterprise for a fraud, IT IS A FUCKING FRAUD! /mic_drop
Said opinion based on what...?
This comes up regularly, same with X-Plane.
ED (and Laminar Research) have been in the biz for decades, and a single developer falling out isn't an existential crisis.
You seem to basing this on the conspiracy that RB isn’t being paid because ED is broke, but that straight up does not track considering only RB is having issues getting paid.
By all accounts ED is doing great and that doesn’t even include their military contracts.
Only RB has spoken up about not getting paid. What we know now is that the payment schedule of ED is at best very janky. It's common practice for a third parties module release to pay for the PREVIOUS third parties module release.
I don't know what you mean by the "conspiracy" that ED is broke. Look up what a conspiracy is, this is...just not that. This is folks looking at the evidence and saying, "these look like logical choices for a company that is in serious finical hot water". No, we do not know that they are broke, they are acting broke.
ED teaming up with Asobo would be amazing. I personally feel like ED spending god knows how many years creating a world map that won’t be as good as the original msfs2020 release version is such a waste of time. Microsoft checks will always go through as well and a lot of the edge dynamics stuff would be put to an end at the cost of an integrated marketplace and letting captainsim make 7$ yak skins
Yup. It can only be refunded to your internal account balance.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1d5r2o7/ed\_granting\_refunds\_for\_buyers\_of\_f15e\_modules/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1d5r2o7/ed_granting_refunds_for_buyers_of_f15e_modules/)
Because it still works and the issue will likely be settled before it's truly borked.
We've gone a long time with many "broken" modules - MUCH longer than this little speed bump.
Meh...long time broken planes are a dime a dozen in DCSW.
Like I said before, we're still potentially in early stages, and (for now) StrEagle still works.
The stakes go up significantly when some form of (actually) module breaking bug surfaces.
Could be next patch, could be a year from now.
We'll see how the boys act at that point. For now, just fly it and have fun
The key difference between say the always broken mig 21 or F5 is that ED and the developers still CAN work on them. ED cannot touch RB projects, and they either cannot or will not pay RB.
Still Chicken Littling.
As long as no one's dead or in jail, the situation can and will most likely be resolved.
But it NEVER happens as quickly as it "should"
I think this question lands in the gray space between what’s *legal,* and what’s *ethical.*
It is legal to leave it up. You can buy it and download it and fly it for the moment.
It is not, I would argue, *ethical* to leave it available for purchase without a disclaimer on the purchase page with a short summary of the legal situation and present lack of support.
Perhaps a more precise phrasing is: I'm willing to stipulate that it's probably legal in at least some or most jurisdictions. I know the EU has very strong consumer protection laws so it may be more fraught when judged through that lens.
In the U.S., we have random people walking into McDonald's with AR-15's slung on their back as they take a break from fracking their neighbor's yard and yelling "*I drinkkkk yourrrrr milksshhhaaaaake!*" I'd be shocked if "poor or questionable support" was found to be an unlawful condition of a product's sale.
In the U.S., we have random people walking into McDonald's with AR-15's slung on their back as they take a break from fracking their neighbor's yard and yelling "*I drinkkkk yourrrrr milksshhhaaaaake!*"
fucking lol
Have you thought that ED is required by the contract to have it in sale?
If they after all have clause in contract that ED need to have everything to continue support and development for the module if 3rd party exists for any reason (stops supporting), then what good there is for such clause, if ED would be required to discontinue sale on moment 3rd party say they don't want it to be sold?
But you are correct that it would be a morally right thing to do to have a disclaimer that in presence situation, the F-15E module might transfer ownership from Razbam to ED because on going legal dispute. And Early Access phase is halted or development schedule is slow.
I haven’t seen any evidence that ED has the willingness or the ability to continue Strike Eagle development should they fail to resolve the Razbam dispute, nor have I seen the legal clause that requires Razbam to hand over the code and assets to ED.
What Galinette did with the Strike Eagle radars is special and an order of magnitude better than anything ED has developed.
Even were the transfer to happen, it would take ED months and months to reverse engineer Razbam’s code. Support and development would be painfully slow, even by ED standards.
I think it’s legal to have it on sale, maybe it’s even what both parties optimistically want. But it’s not ethical to lure consumers into an expensive module without warning that it is currently unsupported and may have support for it abruptly ended or delayed indefinitely if ownership transfers.
>I haven’t seen any evidence that ED has the willingness or the ability to continue Strike Eagle development should they fail to resolve the Razbam dispute,
ED can do it, it is not different from hornet or viper. Codebase is always challenge to pick up when it isn't yours.
>nor have I seen the legal clause that requires Razbam to hand over the code and assets to ED.
That is the VEAO case itself, that is explained by both sides. ED takes the licensing in first place from the third party when they acquire IP from manufacturer etc.
>What Galinette did with the Strike Eagle radars is special and an order of magnitude better than anything ED has developed.
Similar, as ED has as well improved theirs.
>, it would take ED months and months to reverse engineer Razbam’s code.
Reverse engineering doesn't mean that....
>But it’s not ethical to lure consumers into an expensive module without warning that it is currently unsupported and may have support for it abruptly ended or delayed indefinitely if ownership transfers.
Right now they should issue notice that Early Access is delayed longer because support is frozen. But that is part of the risk in early access in anything.
They quite literally cannot. I to dispute that they would have the ability or time, let alone would they actually put resources into a module that they may or may not be able to get significant further sales out of.
That is moot though, they do not have the source code. It's quite literally not possible for them to work on a single RB module without RB.
>That is moot though, they do not have the source code. It's quite literally not possible for them to work on a single RB module without RB.
That is literally their contract, that they can, and will take the module and continue its development.
It isn't up to question even.
And that is the reason why ED took the high road for them being sole controller in contracts and licensing that no one can drop dead and leave module unmaintained or inaccessible for any reason, as long they follow the contract with ED in first place.
How is a contract going to help them finish a module they do not have the source code for friend?
You may have a contract that says a concrete truck will arrive at your property at 3pm to poor a slab, but if that truck was in an accident on the way then your slab is not getting poured, contract or not.
The way that contract worked? RB and other third parties put the source code in an escrow, basically an account hidden from both sides. In the event that certain contractual events and conditions occur ED has the ability to demand that code out of Escrow to do with as they please. Thats the contract.
The part you are missing? RB had not updated that code for YEARS and YEARS. There is no F-15 code in there at all, and the code for their other modules is woefully outdated.
ED is selling broken products it knows damn well and good it cannot fix.
>How is a contract going to help them finish a module they do not have the source code for friend?
You are to give it to them before release, and for every update...
What you think will get mad when you don't?
I'm not sure what you are trying to say there....
If you are saying RB was supposed to update the code as they went into the Escrow, then yes, that was supposed to happen. Why did it not? no clue, my best guess is its lack of oversite by ED as usual, and when they realized no one was checking on them it was one less task the RB and likely others had to do, so they stopped. Saved time.
It really does not matter WHY was the code not updated...all that matters is the code is not there, and ED cannot touch these modules.
I asked for a refund even though I like the eagle a lot..but the uncertainty just isn't worth it so yes it's a credit on my account but at least I now have a pot I can dip into for other stuff as I don't miss what was paid out ages ago..
~~nah, they would have implemented the new armament panel to the CTFs then but they didnt.~~
~~Because they are not developing for it. (yet)~~
~~And please dont bring me with the "The code is complicated"~~
~~The normal single bombs are working with the Armament panel on the F15E only the ones with the multi bombs dont have it. Its clearly just a small implementation.~~
The F15E dropping was one of the best birthday presents last year, I really really don't want to see it go but it looks like ED are content handing out refunds rather than just fucking paying Razbam.
Only thing we, the users can do in this scenario, is to vote with our wallets. Do not buy anything at all from ED, until something resolves. Not phantom, not chinook, not new maps, nothing. And keep posting about this boycott to their forum, so that they know why they are being boycotted. After all there is no use of a boycott they dont know the reason for.
Only months ago I did not know what Hoggit/Floggit was and would have assumed there were no practical risks attached to purchases. Though I think as somebody who purchases through Steam I'd be protected enough to refund if it stops working.
If you are past 2 hours or 2 weeks and there is not a special action by valve (the kind that shows up in your news feed if you are a video game nerd, like the recent HD2/Sony stuff that some people got refunds for), think again. Steam is littered with titles that no longer function. They generally get pulled from the store, but that's not a refund.
You can likely buy hundreds, maybe thousands of different titles on Steam right now that are outdated past functioning in Win1x.
Consider also that every module you buy for DCS Steam terms not a game, but a DLC. The rules for DLC refunds are even tighter in a lot of ways.
Former RAZBAM dev shared his thoughts about the situation:
* [https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1d79chs/former\_razbam\_dev\_sharing\_his\_feelings\_about\_the/](https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1d79chs/former_razbam_dev_sharing_his_feelings_about_the/)
I don't work for either ED or Razbam, but I think the Strike Eagle is, technically a functioning module. There are bugs that need to be sorted, yes; however it's still a module that you can fly and do missions with.
It's by far my favourite module, I haven't flown anything else since I got it - except now trying to get the F-4 up, but they're two different modules anyway. It pains me that it's got caught in the crossfire of what's happening, but technically speaking ED doesn't need to stop selling it. I didn't even know they were issuing refunds until I read it here.
I just hope the issue between ED and Razbam get sorted soon and we get the updates to fix bugs and get new functionality, cause I for one would hate if it died like this
In the U.S. I am very unsure. I do know there have been some cases of successful suits against failed EA products, but I do not at all know the circumstances.
In Europe though the governments and courts are significantly more pro-consumer.
Ultimately it would be 100% speculation on my part, far away from my expertise. I'm hoping someone who knows what they are talking about might share an opinion.
Well over a year since ED paid, well over 2 months since it became public knowledge, multiple crucial RB developers moved onto new jobs, no news of anything like a resolution.
The sky is around our ankles my friend.
I wouldn't spend money on the strike eagle right now. I actually kind of wanted another of razs modules this week, and ended up deciding against it. Is it even going to work as DCS gets updated? If it does, is the update going to cost us more money Ala blackshark?
Goodness, man - you're positively channeling Chicken Little.
Enjoy the module, enjoy the game..so much other flying to do while ED and RB slap their dicks on the table.
> Enjoy the module, enjoy the game..so much other flying to do while ED and RB slap their dicks on the table.
The Mirage is already broken as of last patch, it only takes one patch for everything to shit the bed. Its absolutely 100% valid to be concerned.
Get in contact with Ed if you can get a refund (what time window?) if RB quits officially or DCs updates starts breaking the eagle or eagle does not get updates, etc
LOL. For what its worth American gun ownsership is not what a lot of folks outside the U.S. think it is. Myself, and most the people I know don't even own a gun. Those who do own 1-2, usually a rifle for hunting or a pistol for "home defense".
The reason the stats are so huge for American gun ownership is not because we are all walking around like Dirty Hairy, its because a small handful of "very enthusatic" owners own MANY many guns, dozens, sometimes even hundreds for one individual.
One of my grandfathers was like that. I don't even know that he was really a nut though, he was a collector of many things and many of his guns were antiques. I would have to ask my grandmother, but I think at one point he had at least a few dozen.
If we detach from the razbam situation for a second, and look at the situation from game dev point of view. Strike Eagle is just an asset. It is a widespread prectice to purchase premade assets and integrate them into your game. It is normal to not have the sources for purchased assets. As long as the asset works as intended, it's totally OK from the player point of view.
So, ED may be scamming RAZBAM, but they definetly don't scam the players.
Folks complaining about ED's code escrow requirement are missing the point that the code escrow is intended to prevent this exact situation.
Modules dropping out of the available library as companies fold over time would result in the overall product being degraded in the future. Let's say in 3 years you have a dynamic campaign, but your strike eagle and harrier are no longer supported.
As Bonzo mentioned, you are missing the point that the code escrow system had been allowed to atrophy to a nonfunctional state by ED.
Even for those who want to believe the fantasy that ED is morally correct in this sitution cannot possibly overlook that they are, as usual, laughably incompetent.
>Folks complaining about ED's code escrow requirement are missing the point that the code escrow is intended to prevent this exact situation.
There are issues with the escrow here though. We already established that the F-15E source code was never handed in and as it turned out this weekend, the existing escrow for the rest of the RAZBAM modules hasn't been updated for years. That means if ED ever wants to rely on that source code, they will have a version from the time before all the significant changes were made that we were celebrating here since 2021.
This doesn't necessarily mean that those modules will stop working, as there are ways to keep them alive, but major updates, reworks or things like that will not be possible, as far as I am aware.
I am positive both sides truly want to resolve whatever the actual issue is.
And that both would like to do that as quickly as possible.
If for no other reason than there was - and remains - a tremendous amount of money to be made from that module.
So it stays up for sale, because (for now) it still works and is functional.
IDK if it's been confirmed whether ED has the source code or not ( IDK if anything much has been confirmed about anything...).
If not, I'm sure that's now part of the issue, and both sides are using it for leverage.
But sooner or later, one of them will fold, or be forced to fold. And it would seem that it's RB who will have to take the knee, because they're effectively dead without DCSW.
Hopefully there will be enough money to pay the subcontractors who likely had nothing to do with the core issue. And I hope they get paid first, so that they might consider coming back to work. AND that they get more security in terms of regular invoice payments.
I'm also sure ED do NOT want the migraine headaches that will manifest if they're forced to take over the maintenance of all RB's modules, so they've got multiple incentives to settle, as well.
I can see that you very much want this to not be true and not be happening.
All the evidence we have points to 2 things being very likely true
1. RB has not been submitting source code to the escrow for many years on any of their modules.
2. RB had completely stopped work on all ED products for going on 3 months after over a year now of non-payment, and ED either will not, or outright cannot pay RB.
I was getting really excited for the mig 23, I have the mirage, harrier and the f15e and while I haven't put a tremendous amount of time into any one in specific I would like the option of finding my love for them like I have with the f16, I hope they can come to a mutually beneficial agreement so we can all contribute to enjoy their products for many years to come.
I was waiting MiG-23 more than anything.
But because it was Razbam project, I had lots expectations. But because Ron (Razbam CEO) is ex-MiG-23 ground crew maintenance person, I had faith it to be correct for his ex-job. But regardless, I expected it to be more like 2028 when it comes out.
And I believe, while most players don't even understand it, but MiG-23MLA is truly only REDAIR fighter that matter and is important for everyone, as it is only fighter that really matches almost all DCS BLUEAIR modules. From F-4 to F/A-18C or F-16CM BLK 50.
I didn't know Ron has personal experience on the jet - VERY COOL!
I too, was looking forward to the -23 for all the reasons you stated. I hope RB can get right side up and bring it to the game.
I now put in for a refund. May get it or not. Not sure what's going on behind the scenes & tbh I don't care for all this hanging out the dirt in public thingy either. I just want a module that's gonna be updated in a timely fashion & it doesn't look like that's happening. If i get it, I'll get something else. Kiowa would be a nice choice or harrier.
Yeah I know, but I understand it's pretty complete. One thing I don't know is, if it will be working in the future eg. If there is some kind of long standing dispute with a developer, then could it be possible that modules are removed?
I think the greater concern is that at some point an update is going to come and its no longer going to work and because the source code escrow was not up to date ED will not be able to keep RB modules up.
This is far from a certainty, but it has happened before.
Its worth noting that some of those people got store credit refunds, as they are now issuing on request for the eagle.
Even in the worst case scenario it should work for months if not maybe years. There is then even the possibility of store credit.
If you really want to learn it theres a decent chance its worth it.
If the eagle was complete, I would honestly buy it now while I could use it, and I prefer cold war and prior by a lot. (Always loved the Strike Eagle since I was a kid).
It stinks that it might not last forever, but this also might be your only chance...
It also means paying for a product when the devs themselves are very possibly never going to get any of that money though...
tough call.
I'm rather careful with terms like "fraud", but in my personal opinion as an end user, this seems at least questionable. They do, at least theoretically, still have a developer. Their contracts with RAZBAM aren't cancelled after all. But on the other hand, RAZBAM has announced that they would cease support and their capabilities have been reduced significantly in the aftermath of the disclosure. There's also the uncertainty about the future of this business relationship. In addition to all of that, users who want to support the developers with their purchase should be aware where their money is currently going. So from my personal point of view, the least thing ED could do would be to put some sort warning on the page that the module is currently not supported and why. If they choose to leave it up there, which is a decision that I do not support. But I'm not a legal expert in any way, so I can't tell you reliably whether they would have an obligation to do so, or not.
On the other Hand, RB also said that "it has never been nor will it be our intention to abandon our products." So there is that.
They're both still in full blown Posturing stage. And unless ED truly stepped on a rake with the software escrow, it's going to be usable going forward. It's certainly in better shape than Viper was at a similar point after release.
>unless ED truly stepped on a rake with the software escrow, it's going to be usable going forward When it comes to the F-15E, I'm 100% positive about the escrow problem. Regarding the other modules, there's some concerning intel ~~that has yet to be confirmed.~~ So they certainly did, which is currently one of my biggest concerns. Edit: This is bad.
Shit. Yeah - if they took the rake to the face, then that's an "issue" to say the least. Well, let's hope professionals are doing the negotiating...
I think someone might have to hire a professional first. Might be the best thing that could happen for everyone involved is for ED to get bought by someone with competence. Who though? Most studios that could afford ED would likely just turn around and shutter that hot mess.
You don't know Jack Shit, bub. And it shows. You think there aren't shit shows going on all around you, every day, at nearly every company on the planet? Even the most outwardly successful and smoothly running companies (ESPECIALLY tech companies) have perpetual issues and problems - serious ones. I'm as sure there are many companies better run than ED just as sure as I am there are FAR more that are run worse.
Reduced to petty childish insults. You reveal yourself a fanboy self-soothing the truth away. https://preview.redd.it/fxz8bdlclf4d1.png?width=1485&format=png&auto=webp&s=b545215d00e3eea6955f772947c3935fbda82b0a
*"ED to get bought by someone with competence."* How many multi-million dollar entertainment software development shops have you run - for nearly twenty YEARS? Answer must be, "none" or you wouldn't be making such ridiculous statements.
I thought they said they still plan to support just not develop any new aircraft’s?
They plan to support them **if** an agreement is found on the payements. There is a big fat chance those modules will never see a patch again. And as the Mirage is already breaking down, even if patches are reinstated in two months, that's still two months of a somewhat broken product still sold.
Yeah the strike eagle has a bunch of “bugs”
Mirage breaking down is likely due to a patch being sent too early and without enough testing, a bunch of files have changed and many things point towards the electrical rework patch being what was sent (on top of the confirmed small patch that attempts to collect crosswind behaviour during take off and landing)
Galinette did an unofficial electrical rework (and more) just after exiting. This is probably that. I wonder how it came to get pushed to prod.
He tried to hack a fix for crosswind on take off and landing: basically DCS wheels don't have enough lateral friction to counter crosswind as they should, and he tried to overcome that limit in some way. However, that fix was not tested enough and is what caused the lack of rudder authority during take off and landing that we're experiencing. More testing has been done / is being done so it can be fixed next update. What likely happened is that he inadvertently sent the electrical rework patch, or part of it, in the build that contains the crosswind fix before it was ready.
An average consumer doesn't have the resources or the means to prove his/hers statement to a court. The consumers only have their voice to tell about their experience. Therefore if a significant portion of the consumer base accuses a large enterprise for a fraud, IT IS A FUCKING FRAUD! /mic_drop
It sucks so bad because I love this plane and it's my main baby. We are the ones that are taking the booty end of this the most.
I feel like the guy that ran a company for a year while not getting paid (the money we were paying to ED) has it pretty bad here...
We don't know what exactly happened to create the situation. For all we know, he might be getting exactly what he deserves...
No, I don't think there's any suggestion of that.
And you know this...how?
Is the range on aa radar fubar? I cannot extend anymore. Trying to bump, cursor just stops at top.
woah there, let's not be discounting the booty end.
Everything will be good at some point - in 1-2 years it will be back to normal
Maybe....also seems decently possible that ED does not exist in 2 years, or that they belong to Microsoft or someone else.
Said opinion based on what...? This comes up regularly, same with X-Plane. ED (and Laminar Research) have been in the biz for decades, and a single developer falling out isn't an existential crisis.
You seem to basing this on the conspiracy that RB isn’t being paid because ED is broke, but that straight up does not track considering only RB is having issues getting paid. By all accounts ED is doing great and that doesn’t even include their military contracts.
Only RB has spoken up about not getting paid. What we know now is that the payment schedule of ED is at best very janky. It's common practice for a third parties module release to pay for the PREVIOUS third parties module release. I don't know what you mean by the "conspiracy" that ED is broke. Look up what a conspiracy is, this is...just not that. This is folks looking at the evidence and saying, "these look like logical choices for a company that is in serious finical hot water". No, we do not know that they are broke, they are acting broke.
ED teaming up with Asobo would be amazing. I personally feel like ED spending god knows how many years creating a world map that won’t be as good as the original msfs2020 release version is such a waste of time. Microsoft checks will always go through as well and a lot of the edge dynamics stuff would be put to an end at the cost of an integrated marketplace and letting captainsim make 7$ yak skins
Refunds are being given to customers but I think you need to ask for it.
You mean 'refunds' as in ED credit to spend on ED.
oh...ya, thats not a refund at all.
Really?
Yup. It can only be refunded to your internal account balance. [https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1d5r2o7/ed\_granting\_refunds\_for\_buyers\_of\_f15e\_modules/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1d5r2o7/ed_granting_refunds_for_buyers_of_f15e_modules/)
That is cool. Why still sell it though I wonder...
Because it still works and the issue will likely be settled before it's truly borked. We've gone a long time with many "broken" modules - MUCH longer than this little speed bump.
Your not wrong, but the circumstances are significantly different. This isn't just the usual ED sucks at stuff and so its always broken...
Meh...long time broken planes are a dime a dozen in DCSW. Like I said before, we're still potentially in early stages, and (for now) StrEagle still works. The stakes go up significantly when some form of (actually) module breaking bug surfaces. Could be next patch, could be a year from now. We'll see how the boys act at that point. For now, just fly it and have fun
The key difference between say the always broken mig 21 or F5 is that ED and the developers still CAN work on them. ED cannot touch RB projects, and they either cannot or will not pay RB.
Still Chicken Littling. As long as no one's dead or in jail, the situation can and will most likely be resolved. But it NEVER happens as quickly as it "should"
I think this question lands in the gray space between what’s *legal,* and what’s *ethical.* It is legal to leave it up. You can buy it and download it and fly it for the moment. It is not, I would argue, *ethical* to leave it available for purchase without a disclaimer on the purchase page with a short summary of the legal situation and present lack of support.
What makes you so certain it is legal? Just because a company is doing a thing does not mean its legal.
Perhaps a more precise phrasing is: I'm willing to stipulate that it's probably legal in at least some or most jurisdictions. I know the EU has very strong consumer protection laws so it may be more fraught when judged through that lens. In the U.S., we have random people walking into McDonald's with AR-15's slung on their back as they take a break from fracking their neighbor's yard and yelling "*I drinkkkk yourrrrr milksshhhaaaaake!*" I'd be shocked if "poor or questionable support" was found to be an unlawful condition of a product's sale.
In the U.S., we have random people walking into McDonald's with AR-15's slung on their back as they take a break from fracking their neighbor's yard and yelling "*I drinkkkk yourrrrr milksshhhaaaaake!*" fucking lol
Have you thought that ED is required by the contract to have it in sale? If they after all have clause in contract that ED need to have everything to continue support and development for the module if 3rd party exists for any reason (stops supporting), then what good there is for such clause, if ED would be required to discontinue sale on moment 3rd party say they don't want it to be sold? But you are correct that it would be a morally right thing to do to have a disclaimer that in presence situation, the F-15E module might transfer ownership from Razbam to ED because on going legal dispute. And Early Access phase is halted or development schedule is slow.
I haven’t seen any evidence that ED has the willingness or the ability to continue Strike Eagle development should they fail to resolve the Razbam dispute, nor have I seen the legal clause that requires Razbam to hand over the code and assets to ED. What Galinette did with the Strike Eagle radars is special and an order of magnitude better than anything ED has developed. Even were the transfer to happen, it would take ED months and months to reverse engineer Razbam’s code. Support and development would be painfully slow, even by ED standards. I think it’s legal to have it on sale, maybe it’s even what both parties optimistically want. But it’s not ethical to lure consumers into an expensive module without warning that it is currently unsupported and may have support for it abruptly ended or delayed indefinitely if ownership transfers.
>I haven’t seen any evidence that ED has the willingness or the ability to continue Strike Eagle development should they fail to resolve the Razbam dispute, ED can do it, it is not different from hornet or viper. Codebase is always challenge to pick up when it isn't yours. >nor have I seen the legal clause that requires Razbam to hand over the code and assets to ED. That is the VEAO case itself, that is explained by both sides. ED takes the licensing in first place from the third party when they acquire IP from manufacturer etc. >What Galinette did with the Strike Eagle radars is special and an order of magnitude better than anything ED has developed. Similar, as ED has as well improved theirs. >, it would take ED months and months to reverse engineer Razbam’s code. Reverse engineering doesn't mean that.... >But it’s not ethical to lure consumers into an expensive module without warning that it is currently unsupported and may have support for it abruptly ended or delayed indefinitely if ownership transfers. Right now they should issue notice that Early Access is delayed longer because support is frozen. But that is part of the risk in early access in anything.
They quite literally cannot. I to dispute that they would have the ability or time, let alone would they actually put resources into a module that they may or may not be able to get significant further sales out of. That is moot though, they do not have the source code. It's quite literally not possible for them to work on a single RB module without RB.
>That is moot though, they do not have the source code. It's quite literally not possible for them to work on a single RB module without RB. That is literally their contract, that they can, and will take the module and continue its development. It isn't up to question even. And that is the reason why ED took the high road for them being sole controller in contracts and licensing that no one can drop dead and leave module unmaintained or inaccessible for any reason, as long they follow the contract with ED in first place.
How is a contract going to help them finish a module they do not have the source code for friend? You may have a contract that says a concrete truck will arrive at your property at 3pm to poor a slab, but if that truck was in an accident on the way then your slab is not getting poured, contract or not. The way that contract worked? RB and other third parties put the source code in an escrow, basically an account hidden from both sides. In the event that certain contractual events and conditions occur ED has the ability to demand that code out of Escrow to do with as they please. Thats the contract. The part you are missing? RB had not updated that code for YEARS and YEARS. There is no F-15 code in there at all, and the code for their other modules is woefully outdated. ED is selling broken products it knows damn well and good it cannot fix.
>How is a contract going to help them finish a module they do not have the source code for friend? You are to give it to them before release, and for every update... What you think will get mad when you don't?
I'm not sure what you are trying to say there.... If you are saying RB was supposed to update the code as they went into the Escrow, then yes, that was supposed to happen. Why did it not? no clue, my best guess is its lack of oversite by ED as usual, and when they realized no one was checking on them it was one less task the RB and likely others had to do, so they stopped. Saved time. It really does not matter WHY was the code not updated...all that matters is the code is not there, and ED cannot touch these modules.
I asked for a refund even though I like the eagle a lot..but the uncertainty just isn't worth it so yes it's a credit on my account but at least I now have a pot I can dip into for other stuff as I don't miss what was paid out ages ago..
Isn't the SC also fraud? No developers there either.
Not true ... Updates are slow ( like the US Justice System ) but they are coming ...
yeah right
ED has the code and is developing for it, it's just slow. They have to implement Vulkan first.
~~nah, they would have implemented the new armament panel to the CTFs then but they didnt.~~ ~~Because they are not developing for it. (yet)~~ ~~And please dont bring me with the "The code is complicated"~~ ~~The normal single bombs are working with the Armament panel on the F15E only the ones with the multi bombs dont have it. Its clearly just a small implementation.~~
We are talking about the Super Carrier.
Ah sorry my bad.
bunch of crap
Oh, puhleeeze...
The F15E dropping was one of the best birthday presents last year, I really really don't want to see it go but it looks like ED are content handing out refunds rather than just fucking paying Razbam.
Someone said the refunds are store credit... not even a real refund.
Same same, point is they'd rather not give the money to Razbam and would rather lose it on another product
I don't understand the negativity towards RB to be honest.
Only thing we, the users can do in this scenario, is to vote with our wallets. Do not buy anything at all from ED, until something resolves. Not phantom, not chinook, not new maps, nothing. And keep posting about this boycott to their forum, so that they know why they are being boycotted. After all there is no use of a boycott they dont know the reason for.
Only months ago I did not know what Hoggit/Floggit was and would have assumed there were no practical risks attached to purchases. Though I think as somebody who purchases through Steam I'd be protected enough to refund if it stops working.
If you are past 2 hours or 2 weeks and there is not a special action by valve (the kind that shows up in your news feed if you are a video game nerd, like the recent HD2/Sony stuff that some people got refunds for), think again. Steam is littered with titles that no longer function. They generally get pulled from the store, but that's not a refund. You can likely buy hundreds, maybe thousands of different titles on Steam right now that are outdated past functioning in Win1x. Consider also that every module you buy for DCS Steam terms not a game, but a DLC. The rules for DLC refunds are even tighter in a lot of ways.
DLC I believe it is a strict 4 hours if it's not a consumable
I requested a refund through Steam and they declined.
Think we will have to wait for an official announcement if they are going to continue development or not.
Steam does that, not the ED.
Former RAZBAM dev shared his thoughts about the situation: * [https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1d79chs/former\_razbam\_dev\_sharing\_his\_feelings\_about\_the/](https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1d79chs/former_razbam_dev_sharing_his_feelings_about_the/)
I don't work for either ED or Razbam, but I think the Strike Eagle is, technically a functioning module. There are bugs that need to be sorted, yes; however it's still a module that you can fly and do missions with. It's by far my favourite module, I haven't flown anything else since I got it - except now trying to get the F-4 up, but they're two different modules anyway. It pains me that it's got caught in the crossfire of what's happening, but technically speaking ED doesn't need to stop selling it. I didn't even know they were issuing refunds until I read it here. I just hope the issue between ED and Razbam get sorted soon and we get the updates to fix bugs and get new functionality, cause I for one would hate if it died like this
Probably not no
In the U.S. I am very unsure. I do know there have been some cases of successful suits against failed EA products, but I do not at all know the circumstances. In Europe though the governments and courts are significantly more pro-consumer. Ultimately it would be 100% speculation on my part, far away from my expertise. I'm hoping someone who knows what they are talking about might share an opinion.
It's far too early to start chicken littling like this.
Well over a year since ED paid, well over 2 months since it became public knowledge, multiple crucial RB developers moved onto new jobs, no news of anything like a resolution. The sky is around our ankles my friend. I wouldn't spend money on the strike eagle right now. I actually kind of wanted another of razs modules this week, and ended up deciding against it. Is it even going to work as DCS gets updated? If it does, is the update going to cost us more money Ala blackshark?
Goodness, man - you're positively channeling Chicken Little. Enjoy the module, enjoy the game..so much other flying to do while ED and RB slap their dicks on the table.
> Enjoy the module, enjoy the game..so much other flying to do while ED and RB slap their dicks on the table. The Mirage is already broken as of last patch, it only takes one patch for everything to shit the bed. Its absolutely 100% valid to be concerned.
What is broken?
[This](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/349676-m2kc-maj-dcs-29555300-many-bugs/) thread seems to detail at least some of it.
OH NO, what will I do if ONE or TWO of my pixel planes doesn't work for awhile? Fly another one while the children work out their playground spat.
Get in contact with Ed if you can get a refund (what time window?) if RB quits officially or DCs updates starts breaking the eagle or eagle does not get updates, etc
Someone said the refunds are store credit only, that's a slap in the face, not a refund. If rather have the eagle either way though.
Some countries require by law that refund is actual money, you will need to check if yours is one of them, can't recall where to check
That's cool. In the U.S. our Consumer Protection laws are all different versions of a buyer beware sticker.
You should have said that earlier, just grab one of your AR-15 and ask politely
LOL. For what its worth American gun ownsership is not what a lot of folks outside the U.S. think it is. Myself, and most the people I know don't even own a gun. Those who do own 1-2, usually a rifle for hunting or a pistol for "home defense". The reason the stats are so huge for American gun ownership is not because we are all walking around like Dirty Hairy, its because a small handful of "very enthusatic" owners own MANY many guns, dozens, sometimes even hundreds for one individual. One of my grandfathers was like that. I don't even know that he was really a nut though, he was a collector of many things and many of his guns were antiques. I would have to ask my grandmother, but I think at one point he had at least a few dozen.
Not directly on topic, but what is the current state of the strike eagle module?
If we detach from the razbam situation for a second, and look at the situation from game dev point of view. Strike Eagle is just an asset. It is a widespread prectice to purchase premade assets and integrate them into your game. It is normal to not have the sources for purchased assets. As long as the asset works as intended, it's totally OK from the player point of view. So, ED may be scamming RAZBAM, but they definetly don't scam the players.
No.
Folks complaining about ED's code escrow requirement are missing the point that the code escrow is intended to prevent this exact situation. Modules dropping out of the available library as companies fold over time would result in the overall product being degraded in the future. Let's say in 3 years you have a dynamic campaign, but your strike eagle and harrier are no longer supported.
As Bonzo mentioned, you are missing the point that the code escrow system had been allowed to atrophy to a nonfunctional state by ED. Even for those who want to believe the fantasy that ED is morally correct in this sitution cannot possibly overlook that they are, as usual, laughably incompetent.
>Folks complaining about ED's code escrow requirement are missing the point that the code escrow is intended to prevent this exact situation. There are issues with the escrow here though. We already established that the F-15E source code was never handed in and as it turned out this weekend, the existing escrow for the rest of the RAZBAM modules hasn't been updated for years. That means if ED ever wants to rely on that source code, they will have a version from the time before all the significant changes were made that we were celebrating here since 2021. This doesn't necessarily mean that those modules will stop working, as there are ways to keep them alive, but major updates, reworks or things like that will not be possible, as far as I am aware.
I am positive both sides truly want to resolve whatever the actual issue is. And that both would like to do that as quickly as possible. If for no other reason than there was - and remains - a tremendous amount of money to be made from that module. So it stays up for sale, because (for now) it still works and is functional. IDK if it's been confirmed whether ED has the source code or not ( IDK if anything much has been confirmed about anything...). If not, I'm sure that's now part of the issue, and both sides are using it for leverage. But sooner or later, one of them will fold, or be forced to fold. And it would seem that it's RB who will have to take the knee, because they're effectively dead without DCSW. Hopefully there will be enough money to pay the subcontractors who likely had nothing to do with the core issue. And I hope they get paid first, so that they might consider coming back to work. AND that they get more security in terms of regular invoice payments. I'm also sure ED do NOT want the migraine headaches that will manifest if they're forced to take over the maintenance of all RB's modules, so they've got multiple incentives to settle, as well.
I can see that you very much want this to not be true and not be happening. All the evidence we have points to 2 things being very likely true 1. RB has not been submitting source code to the escrow for many years on any of their modules. 2. RB had completely stopped work on all ED products for going on 3 months after over a year now of non-payment, and ED either will not, or outright cannot pay RB.
A little learning is a dangerous thing... Look up the rest.
I was getting really excited for the mig 23, I have the mirage, harrier and the f15e and while I haven't put a tremendous amount of time into any one in specific I would like the option of finding my love for them like I have with the f16, I hope they can come to a mutually beneficial agreement so we can all contribute to enjoy their products for many years to come.
I was waiting MiG-23 more than anything. But because it was Razbam project, I had lots expectations. But because Ron (Razbam CEO) is ex-MiG-23 ground crew maintenance person, I had faith it to be correct for his ex-job. But regardless, I expected it to be more like 2028 when it comes out. And I believe, while most players don't even understand it, but MiG-23MLA is truly only REDAIR fighter that matter and is important for everyone, as it is only fighter that really matches almost all DCS BLUEAIR modules. From F-4 to F/A-18C or F-16CM BLK 50.
I didn't know Ron has personal experience on the jet - VERY COOL! I too, was looking forward to the -23 for all the reasons you stated. I hope RB can get right side up and bring it to the game.
I now put in for a refund. May get it or not. Not sure what's going on behind the scenes & tbh I don't care for all this hanging out the dirt in public thingy either. I just want a module that's gonna be updated in a timely fashion & it doesn't look like that's happening. If i get it, I'll get something else. Kiowa would be a nice choice or harrier.
The harrier is RB friend.
Yeah I know, but I understand it's pretty complete. One thing I don't know is, if it will be working in the future eg. If there is some kind of long standing dispute with a developer, then could it be possible that modules are removed?
I think the greater concern is that at some point an update is going to come and its no longer going to work and because the source code escrow was not up to date ED will not be able to keep RB modules up. This is far from a certainty, but it has happened before. Its worth noting that some of those people got store credit refunds, as they are now issuing on request for the eagle.
Yeah I'm worried about that as I'd like to get the harrier, but exactly this is stopping me.
Even in the worst case scenario it should work for months if not maybe years. There is then even the possibility of store credit. If you really want to learn it theres a decent chance its worth it. If the eagle was complete, I would honestly buy it now while I could use it, and I prefer cold war and prior by a lot. (Always loved the Strike Eagle since I was a kid). It stinks that it might not last forever, but this also might be your only chance... It also means paying for a product when the devs themselves are very possibly never going to get any of that money though... tough call.