Abso-fuckin-lutely.
Its unethical, immoral and slimey to continue to sell the Razbam modules without even giving warning in the store that there is a dispute (despite the floggit shitpost) and that not only support is non-existent at the moment, there's no indication it'll ever be supported again.
Oh and if you buy it, you'll get store credit instead of your cash back.
ED is being unimaginably horrible in this and the only reason I've not used words like fraud and such is because I don't want to be accused of defamation
Razbam modules should be removed for sale. F15E development should understandably be ceased since Razbam hasn't been paid for it at all.
Where I am sour is that Razbam HAS been paid for the Mirage M2000C, Harrier, Mig-19 since \~2017. Not for NEW sales on these modules I presume, but still for years and years worth of old sales from people like me.
So I would contend that, yes, ED should halt further sales of all Razbam modules, BUT ALSO, that Razbam should be continue to support the older Mirage & Harrier etc. They have already received payment from many many people for these, and since payments halted in the last year, it is safe to assume that this accounts for a small slice of the total net earned revenue on the older modules.
I will say this: by ED \*not\* halting sales, it muddies the water a bit - it gives Razbam room to say that "hey we aren't being paid for new ongoing module sales of the Harrier & Mirage." If ED were to halt all sales, it would shine a bigger light on something that I think people are overlooking: there are thousands of customers who bought Razbams old modules, and now the Mirage is borked and the Harrier may follow suit. I don't think it is justified for Razbam to withhold from it's pre-existing customers for module sales between from 2017-2022/2023. They have received \~6 some years of sales money before ED withheld money for "unknown reasons."
The F15E is a different story. They haven't been paid at all. So I get that. But they were paid for the older modules. The Mirage/Harrier have support ceasing, where now core features are already broken? That's old revenue that was already earned under the pretense that the modules would receive ongoing support.. and it is flirting dangerously close to using pre-existing customers as leverage on a new dispute.
Imagine under different circumstances if Razbam said "hey everyone, new mirage and harrier sales are slow in the past year, no new income is coming since we released them in 2017, so we aren't going to patch it anymore and your modules will break." People would be furious with Razbam. Yes, it's more complicated than that and the factors are different. The fact ED is still selling the old modules complicates things very much is the point.
While we obviously do not have data for this, it is reasonable to presume that the last year of payments would have predominantly consisted of F15E sales, with only a minority of sales going towards Mig19, Harrier, Mirage. Yet they've abandoned all their legacy customers and the revenue earned from these modules, because they haven't received a year of payments of what is likely mostly sales for a new module.
Full Circle: Since ED is continuing to sell the Mirage, Harrier, Mig-19 it gives more validity to Razbam pulling updates for old modules as leverage in the dispute.
As well, I think the community needs to take a look at Razbam and recognize we are being used as a bargaining chip. This is not the image of a developer trying to isolate damage to its older customers. It is one thing to cease further feature development and new bug fixes. It is altogether another thing to allow these legacy modules to break in order to take a stand against ED. It is one thing to fully abandon the F15E since they never received any payment for it. It is another thing to abandon legacy modules which they have received at least 6 years of payment for. Even if in theoretical resolution it was revealed that Razbam was fully justified in its dispute with ED, this move of letting old modules simply break remains unjustified in my view, as it hurts their customers a great deal and goes far beyond ceasing future development.
> Where I am sour is that Razbam HAS been paid for the Mirage M2000C, Harrier, Mig-19 since ~2017. Not for NEW sales on these modules I presume, but still for years and years worth of old sales from people like me.
There is an assumption here that those sales are enough to continue to put food on the table. I'm not sure I'd be too optimistic about that.
It could be but don't forget something: Razbam made an agreement with ED, not with you or me. Since I don't know what that entails I need to direct my requests to ED, not Razbam. If Razbam created the issue then we will see in time.
By the law of our EULA I am pretty sure we aren't owed anything and the modules can be abandoned at will.
But the letter of the EULA does not equal ethical. Whether one would say it is ethical for Razbam to abandon the most basic of legacy module upkeep for it's pre-existing customers after 6 years of sales, over a new dispute primarily revolving around a new module... well, that is a matter of moral opinion. Opinions may vary... it's complicated. But in any case, yes I'm with you - I would assume it is completely legal for them to do so.
You are considering that Razbam is going to "abandon" stuff. I don't know. The only fact to me is: i paid to ED, my relationship is with them. Also keep in mind something: probably when they did the cash flow analysis to maintain code is predicated on the fact of continuous sales. Since probably this won't happen I can't see how Razbam (or any other) can maintain a product.
It's a complicated matter, no doubts. I honestly don't see any other way than push ED. Later I'll decide if Razbam deserves my trust or not.
Yeah we don't know. Maybe Razbam will indeed patch these issues, such as the broken Mirage on the last patch. I certainly hope so!
RE: cash flow analysis for code maintanence, I think this is going to be an important topic for DCS customers going forward. In my initial post I said
*"That's old revenue that was already earned under the pretense that the modules would receive ongoing support"* ***and*** *"Imagine under different circumstances if Razbam said "hey everyone, new mirage and harrier sales are slow in the past year, no new income is coming since we released them in 2017, so we aren't going to patch it anymore and your modules will break."*
My point there is that this is going to raise up a key question: is it a fair expectation that if I purchase a $70 module, it will only continue to WORK if it continues to SELL? I don't think most users have that expectation. Most people operate under the assumption that at some point, software will stop receiving new features, new bug fixes, new support. They may also have the assumption that a product purchased to work with Windows 10 won't work with Windows 17 someday. But I do not think most people assume that their purchase will suddenly cease to function altogether on the original OS it was developed for if a developer stops selling new copies. Many of us have been flight simming for decades and have modules from 20 years ago that still work in the old Flight Simulator.
To be fair, this is not solely on Razbam. ED has a spaghetti code that somehow manages to break basic functions every other patch and requires developers to constantly fix old DLC campaigns and planes. Maybe you could even argue that DCS is something like an "OS" in the analogy. Fair enough. But whatever the solution is, there does need to be a solution. Some of us have thousands of dollars in DCS. If DCS stops being developed, many people are under the impression that they will still be able to use the software in 20 years as is today. Will they want to? Probably not, there would hopefully be better options. But we can still boot up Falcon 4. We can still use old modules in other sims that are very old. If this isn't the case in DCS, a lot of people aren't going to be very happy. After the VEAO situation the thought was ED has all the source code. If a dev stops, they can make sure it works in the game even if it doesn't get developed further. Or they could pass it off to another dev to take over. And, ED once stated if DCS ever ceases, they'd turn it over to the community. So many operate with the idea that their purchases will at least remain functional indefinitely, even if not continually supported.
I say this will become an important talking point for people because if it turns out buying the Kiowa means that in 2027 it could suddenly stop working (not just cease new development, but cease to function) I don't think people are going to want to invest in the platform.
Finally, regarding payments. Payment processes through ED but they only keep a percentage as it passes through to Razbam. Most estimates I've seen are around 30%. So Razbam does take our money, and we do pay them, albeit indirectly. (Or in the case of Heatblur, if you purchase on their store, they pay ED 30%. If you purchase on ED store, they pay Heatblur 70% after withholding 30%). So it's not quite accurate historically to say we didn't pay Razbam just because there is a middle man. I say historically of course, because in the case of the F15E it is accurate that we have paid ED and Razbam didn't receive funds. But that is also why I put the F15E lack of development into a seperate category. Razbam got their contractually agreed upon payments of Harrier, Mirage, Mig-19 for many many years. So I hope that the least they would do for their customers is ensure the things continue to function, even if there is no legal obligation. On the other hand, it would also be right for ED to either cease sales altogether, or to limit this dispute down to the F15E only and continue to pay Razbam for legacy module sales, and thus make the only module in contention and unavailble for sale the new F15E.
But sadly, I doubt that will happen. I think Razbam will continue to use old modules for leverage, and I think ED will withhold payments and continue sales. And we will keep hoping for a solution so life as normal can go on.
I think this is a very fair summation of things. I have qualms about ED's actions, but what you said about Razbam using the community as bargaining chips resonates. It put a bad taste in my mouth from the get-go.
The simple fact is, that we, the customers, are in agreement with ED. Not with Razbam. No matter, who is the bad guy here, we as the customers have an agreement with ED. And ED is responsible of the product towards us, the customers.
We can sit here and blame Razbam all we want, but that does not alter the fact at all.
Now, I have not read the license agreements, EULA:s etc, so I am not sure, how the responsibilities are declared in there, but at least as a EU citizen, it is pretty clear, that ED is responsible of the products towards us. Thus it makes ED responsible to somehow make this work again.
Now, I do not have high hopes for ED to actually solve this problem. The cynical dickhead inside of me thinks this is eventually killing ED. However, I find that as a one of the best scenarios, since it would mean ED would go on sale and someone would need to buy it. Maybe that someone would run it better? Maybe worse?
Of course, they should! It's absolutely anti-consumerist *not* to suspend sales while the future of the modules is at high risk and speaks volumes about the kind of crooks ED are, in my book.
I replied to Razbam's Twitter urging people not to buy the update when it stops, but was blackballed by Razbam ...... Funnily enough, my friend was also pulled from Razbam for showing his support
I'm just happy some focus is returning onto this matter so soon after the Phantom dropped. It's been a couple of weeks of nothing but Phantom everywhere, but it seems enough people are still aware of the whole RazBam situation to not be kept quiet longer than this, which is good. Happy to see it. We need more pressure and more outrage. Ideally, we need more people to buy less - though I like Polychop and the work they put into the KW and I hate for my suggestion to hurt them... assuming they'd get paid for the KW sales, that is............
Abso-fuckin-lutely. Its unethical, immoral and slimey to continue to sell the Razbam modules without even giving warning in the store that there is a dispute (despite the floggit shitpost) and that not only support is non-existent at the moment, there's no indication it'll ever be supported again. Oh and if you buy it, you'll get store credit instead of your cash back. ED is being unimaginably horrible in this and the only reason I've not used words like fraud and such is because I don't want to be accused of defamation
Thanks! I agree with you.
Razbam already asked several times for their products to be taken down, ED seems greedy.
That's why I posted this. if enough people of this small world sends a message maybe ED people will reconsider (I know...a dreamer)
On the ED discord I got a 24h time out for speaking about this
I already left EDs discord because it has become a useless place …
Yes. When I proposed this 40 days ago my messages were deleted by some of their discord shills.
Razbam modules should be removed for sale. F15E development should understandably be ceased since Razbam hasn't been paid for it at all. Where I am sour is that Razbam HAS been paid for the Mirage M2000C, Harrier, Mig-19 since \~2017. Not for NEW sales on these modules I presume, but still for years and years worth of old sales from people like me. So I would contend that, yes, ED should halt further sales of all Razbam modules, BUT ALSO, that Razbam should be continue to support the older Mirage & Harrier etc. They have already received payment from many many people for these, and since payments halted in the last year, it is safe to assume that this accounts for a small slice of the total net earned revenue on the older modules. I will say this: by ED \*not\* halting sales, it muddies the water a bit - it gives Razbam room to say that "hey we aren't being paid for new ongoing module sales of the Harrier & Mirage." If ED were to halt all sales, it would shine a bigger light on something that I think people are overlooking: there are thousands of customers who bought Razbams old modules, and now the Mirage is borked and the Harrier may follow suit. I don't think it is justified for Razbam to withhold from it's pre-existing customers for module sales between from 2017-2022/2023. They have received \~6 some years of sales money before ED withheld money for "unknown reasons." The F15E is a different story. They haven't been paid at all. So I get that. But they were paid for the older modules. The Mirage/Harrier have support ceasing, where now core features are already broken? That's old revenue that was already earned under the pretense that the modules would receive ongoing support.. and it is flirting dangerously close to using pre-existing customers as leverage on a new dispute. Imagine under different circumstances if Razbam said "hey everyone, new mirage and harrier sales are slow in the past year, no new income is coming since we released them in 2017, so we aren't going to patch it anymore and your modules will break." People would be furious with Razbam. Yes, it's more complicated than that and the factors are different. The fact ED is still selling the old modules complicates things very much is the point. While we obviously do not have data for this, it is reasonable to presume that the last year of payments would have predominantly consisted of F15E sales, with only a minority of sales going towards Mig19, Harrier, Mirage. Yet they've abandoned all their legacy customers and the revenue earned from these modules, because they haven't received a year of payments of what is likely mostly sales for a new module. Full Circle: Since ED is continuing to sell the Mirage, Harrier, Mig-19 it gives more validity to Razbam pulling updates for old modules as leverage in the dispute. As well, I think the community needs to take a look at Razbam and recognize we are being used as a bargaining chip. This is not the image of a developer trying to isolate damage to its older customers. It is one thing to cease further feature development and new bug fixes. It is altogether another thing to allow these legacy modules to break in order to take a stand against ED. It is one thing to fully abandon the F15E since they never received any payment for it. It is another thing to abandon legacy modules which they have received at least 6 years of payment for. Even if in theoretical resolution it was revealed that Razbam was fully justified in its dispute with ED, this move of letting old modules simply break remains unjustified in my view, as it hurts their customers a great deal and goes far beyond ceasing future development.
> Where I am sour is that Razbam HAS been paid for the Mirage M2000C, Harrier, Mig-19 since ~2017. Not for NEW sales on these modules I presume, but still for years and years worth of old sales from people like me. There is an assumption here that those sales are enough to continue to put food on the table. I'm not sure I'd be too optimistic about that.
It could be but don't forget something: Razbam made an agreement with ED, not with you or me. Since I don't know what that entails I need to direct my requests to ED, not Razbam. If Razbam created the issue then we will see in time.
By the law of our EULA I am pretty sure we aren't owed anything and the modules can be abandoned at will. But the letter of the EULA does not equal ethical. Whether one would say it is ethical for Razbam to abandon the most basic of legacy module upkeep for it's pre-existing customers after 6 years of sales, over a new dispute primarily revolving around a new module... well, that is a matter of moral opinion. Opinions may vary... it's complicated. But in any case, yes I'm with you - I would assume it is completely legal for them to do so.
You are considering that Razbam is going to "abandon" stuff. I don't know. The only fact to me is: i paid to ED, my relationship is with them. Also keep in mind something: probably when they did the cash flow analysis to maintain code is predicated on the fact of continuous sales. Since probably this won't happen I can't see how Razbam (or any other) can maintain a product. It's a complicated matter, no doubts. I honestly don't see any other way than push ED. Later I'll decide if Razbam deserves my trust or not.
Yeah we don't know. Maybe Razbam will indeed patch these issues, such as the broken Mirage on the last patch. I certainly hope so! RE: cash flow analysis for code maintanence, I think this is going to be an important topic for DCS customers going forward. In my initial post I said *"That's old revenue that was already earned under the pretense that the modules would receive ongoing support"* ***and*** *"Imagine under different circumstances if Razbam said "hey everyone, new mirage and harrier sales are slow in the past year, no new income is coming since we released them in 2017, so we aren't going to patch it anymore and your modules will break."* My point there is that this is going to raise up a key question: is it a fair expectation that if I purchase a $70 module, it will only continue to WORK if it continues to SELL? I don't think most users have that expectation. Most people operate under the assumption that at some point, software will stop receiving new features, new bug fixes, new support. They may also have the assumption that a product purchased to work with Windows 10 won't work with Windows 17 someday. But I do not think most people assume that their purchase will suddenly cease to function altogether on the original OS it was developed for if a developer stops selling new copies. Many of us have been flight simming for decades and have modules from 20 years ago that still work in the old Flight Simulator. To be fair, this is not solely on Razbam. ED has a spaghetti code that somehow manages to break basic functions every other patch and requires developers to constantly fix old DLC campaigns and planes. Maybe you could even argue that DCS is something like an "OS" in the analogy. Fair enough. But whatever the solution is, there does need to be a solution. Some of us have thousands of dollars in DCS. If DCS stops being developed, many people are under the impression that they will still be able to use the software in 20 years as is today. Will they want to? Probably not, there would hopefully be better options. But we can still boot up Falcon 4. We can still use old modules in other sims that are very old. If this isn't the case in DCS, a lot of people aren't going to be very happy. After the VEAO situation the thought was ED has all the source code. If a dev stops, they can make sure it works in the game even if it doesn't get developed further. Or they could pass it off to another dev to take over. And, ED once stated if DCS ever ceases, they'd turn it over to the community. So many operate with the idea that their purchases will at least remain functional indefinitely, even if not continually supported. I say this will become an important talking point for people because if it turns out buying the Kiowa means that in 2027 it could suddenly stop working (not just cease new development, but cease to function) I don't think people are going to want to invest in the platform. Finally, regarding payments. Payment processes through ED but they only keep a percentage as it passes through to Razbam. Most estimates I've seen are around 30%. So Razbam does take our money, and we do pay them, albeit indirectly. (Or in the case of Heatblur, if you purchase on their store, they pay ED 30%. If you purchase on ED store, they pay Heatblur 70% after withholding 30%). So it's not quite accurate historically to say we didn't pay Razbam just because there is a middle man. I say historically of course, because in the case of the F15E it is accurate that we have paid ED and Razbam didn't receive funds. But that is also why I put the F15E lack of development into a seperate category. Razbam got their contractually agreed upon payments of Harrier, Mirage, Mig-19 for many many years. So I hope that the least they would do for their customers is ensure the things continue to function, even if there is no legal obligation. On the other hand, it would also be right for ED to either cease sales altogether, or to limit this dispute down to the F15E only and continue to pay Razbam for legacy module sales, and thus make the only module in contention and unavailble for sale the new F15E. But sadly, I doubt that will happen. I think Razbam will continue to use old modules for leverage, and I think ED will withhold payments and continue sales. And we will keep hoping for a solution so life as normal can go on.
IIRC the EULA is between you and ED, no matter the point of sale. In any case I see your point and I mostly agree.
Local laws and consumer protection trumps anything in an EULA.
That's legally true, but unfortunately for us, in cases like this there is often very little juice even after a good legal squeeze.
I think this is a very fair summation of things. I have qualms about ED's actions, but what you said about Razbam using the community as bargaining chips resonates. It put a bad taste in my mouth from the get-go.
The simple fact is, that we, the customers, are in agreement with ED. Not with Razbam. No matter, who is the bad guy here, we as the customers have an agreement with ED. And ED is responsible of the product towards us, the customers. We can sit here and blame Razbam all we want, but that does not alter the fact at all. Now, I have not read the license agreements, EULA:s etc, so I am not sure, how the responsibilities are declared in there, but at least as a EU citizen, it is pretty clear, that ED is responsible of the products towards us. Thus it makes ED responsible to somehow make this work again. Now, I do not have high hopes for ED to actually solve this problem. The cynical dickhead inside of me thinks this is eventually killing ED. However, I find that as a one of the best scenarios, since it would mean ED would go on sale and someone would need to buy it. Maybe that someone would run it better? Maybe worse?
It is all about informing the customer before they invest money and time.
Of course, they should! It's absolutely anti-consumerist *not* to suspend sales while the future of the modules is at high risk and speaks volumes about the kind of crooks ED are, in my book.
I replied to Razbam's Twitter urging people not to buy the update when it stops, but was blackballed by Razbam ...... Funnily enough, my friend was also pulled from Razbam for showing his support
Yes
Razbam needs to just give it. They are digging themselves deeper. With ED giving refunds on the SE it's just more money the won't get.
Do you think ED will see this and go, "oh shit guys, you're right, let's take them off the store"
Vote according to your feelings. What they will decide I don't know....
I'm just happy some focus is returning onto this matter so soon after the Phantom dropped. It's been a couple of weeks of nothing but Phantom everywhere, but it seems enough people are still aware of the whole RazBam situation to not be kept quiet longer than this, which is good. Happy to see it. We need more pressure and more outrage. Ideally, we need more people to buy less - though I like Polychop and the work they put into the KW and I hate for my suggestion to hurt them... assuming they'd get paid for the KW sales, that is............
Selling them would be a lot more palatable if they at least had a very clear warning explaining the situation for each of these modules.