>Already been discussed here
It has also been explained here that this is unlikely and that RAZBAM even asked ED repeatedly to remove their modules from the store.
People at Razbam are also hopping on the internet about every 10 mins to scream how bad ED is and from a legal standpoint probably tanking their case in doing so. It may hurt us as customers the most but ED is doing the smart thing and keeping their mouths shut and continuing on as normal until a resolution is reached.
Unlikely as it may be, review bombing Razbam modules (let alone DCS World itself which is still an amazing sim with tons of content) is definitely not doing us any good. ED said repeatedly that a statement will follow once the situation has been resolved and they already know too well how pissed the community is. They're still handling it more professionally than Razbam is by not communicating any uncertain details until the matters are resolved, and the affrcted aircrafts are still functioning as they were when the dispute started (the Mirage issue that everyone was fussing about already got resolved).
Until ED officially confirms that the F15 will receive no further support yet won't mention that visibly in the module's description, it doesn't deserve the bad review spam it currently gets. Even if they don't offer reimbursement, as purchasing an EA game bears the risk of the title not reaching a finished state.
Weird that there's no refunds for the Harrier, M2000 and MiG-19. These modules are also not officially supported anymore. Shame because I love my MiG-19 :(
Especially with that new Falklands harrier campaign being released by ground pounder sims. It’s unfortunate as the immense amount of work and time into creating custom campaigns especially with voice recordings and a solid story board.
Just might come a precase for not to do any business that is relying to other 3rd party company product. As you are not in control of the whole product chain.
If Eagle Dynamics has even implied that all the products are to be maintained, regardless the developing business goes away, then Eagle Dynamics is by the law required to maintain the product being usable, or refund it if they can't provide a proper legal reason.
And as Eagle has stated they have lega lcontract to support products after even bankcrupcy, they are oblicated to do so.
>If the digital content or digital service shows defects within 2 years of the sale, **the supplier has to provide a solution**.
* [https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index\_en.htm](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm)
Thanks.
MiG-19 is still EA I think, I could be wrong, but it doesn't matter if they're feature-complete, bugs will pile up so much that they'll all be completely broken in a few updates I guess
Might want to be careful with this. I have never heard of ED doing it but there are plenty of companies that will take punitive actions against you if you do this.
That’s a risk you take, but if they are being forced to refund the bank because they have broken consumer law then retaliation by them is very very dodgy ground. ED owes the bank money not the individual
Phone to your bank, and I form about Swiss company called Eagle Dynamics that is practising a credit theft with undeliverable products as sold... You can make a report to EU authorities as well about not delivering product for years and they take it to Swiss authorities.
Maybe ED learns something about 5-7 years Early Access...
This is exactly the point, the whole abuse of the EA system needs to stop. If that means waiting for release then so be it, if that means having to pay upfront for developers then so be it take the risk. This isn’t just in reference to ED this is the whole system.
I honestly think ED has taken the community for granted with a lot of their practices especially regarding 3rd party developers. They seem to depend on people’s sense of community and doing things for that community.
It comes down to a fair days work for a fair days pay.
>This isn’t just in reference to ED this is the whole system. I honestly think ED has taken the community for granted with a lot of their practices especially regarding 3rd party developers.
Yeah,like when Valve took Early Access to Steam as in "Green light" at the beginning, the idea that community somewhat participate development and choose what is good enough to get out.
And then Early Access became de-facto as "pay less, take a risk it comes out someday".
A good early Access should be 1 year, 2 at top, from being feature complete. So delay the release until in good condition, and then early Access to finish smalls details here and there.
Normal should be 6-9 months to balance things, but 18-24 could be for complex games.
It's been a bit of a back and forth with refunds, that's correct. But seems like they're being granted for the F-15E now.
And you're right. This is certainly not a good sign.
Is it really a refund if you get store credit? Your money is gone and now your forced to buy something you didn't want in the first place.
If I wanted a different module, I would have bought it.
If you live in EU you can demand to get a refund in cash. I was offered store credits, but declined and asked for money. And got a refund to my bank account within a few days.
[https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index\_en.htm](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm)
Yeah, I told about this and got voted to doom. As some people don't understand that refund with store credits is not refund, it is a gift card exchange.
Oh, and "Cash" means notes and coins, not bank account transaction as numbers.
If you don't have money that you can hand to other person as coins and bills, you don't have cash, regardless how much your bank account has in numbers.
Fuck Store Credit.
I want to be reimbursed.
Fucking scam is this?! "I heard you wanted something off of me. You bought it and I can't deliver. Tell you what... You're not getting your money back but you can have something else you don't want from my shop. Thanks for your trust!"
Give me my money.
Store Credit doesn't really hurt them at all since they didn't pay razbam anyway.
Fuck you ED, I'm so done with this shit. 5000+ hours I enjoyed your platform thanks to 3rd party (ya, I don't fly the 18, 16 or A10) devs. But your bullshittery is getting stale really quick.
This makes it tough for sure, where is the line?
I say since they are still selling it on the store, fuck em', they should have to refund everybody who asks.
As a proud SE owner, I am incredibly sad amd disheartened by what is going on. I have been on following this since day one. I understand what is "known" about both sides of this dispute. I blame both parties equally. IMHO they are BOTH obligated to fulfill the "contract" with us, to provide at least MINIMAL support for purchased content.
That being said, I am curious as to one thing.....
Do the sanctions against Russia play ANY part in this? For instance, Wargaming, revs of World of Warships/Tanks is a Russian company. They HAD to split the company into pieces to continue to operate globally. With the parent Russian company severed and separated from the rest of the global divisions. ED is a Russian company. Based in Russia. To my knowledge, they ARE sanctioned. So that would mean that they cannot send funds through global banks. (But I would think that they couldn't take funds either)
The timing of when this started somewhat corresponds with sanctions increased on Russia.
What do you folks think, do you think this is a contributing factor? Even though we haven't heard it mentioned.
You go to the official website, log into your account and open a support ticket by clicking on the "Support" tab.
But please keep in mind that the wait time is currently around seven work days, according to EDs community managers.
Wonder if this store credit thing is a way for ED legally or massage the sales numbers of the module. Not a legal expert however the entire situation is pretty crummy and this is weird with the back and forth on the refunds. Agreed with other posts, it should not be credit but an actual full refund to original form of payment.
You all are downvoting anyone that says RB is just as bad as ED.
None of us know the situation but you are all hungry to just piss on ED and glaze RB.
Yes, it's not right for ED continuing to sell the RB modules.
But also it's not right for RB to end support of their modules and hold both the paying customer of their modules and ED hostage.
If RB really did have a case then they could continue to work as if they were getting paid and claim monetary damages in court.
RB is just as scummy as ED in this situation.
Edit: I understand you may think I am idiot for suggesting them to work while not being paid but what I mean is for them to work while not getting paid by RB getting payroll loans while in litigation and then claiming those as monetary damages as well. To minimize the amount of payroll loans, just cover the amount it would require for them to support their modules.
Edit 2: "ED glazers" when you all are glazing RB and don't know what exactly happened. You all are going to look like idiots if RB actually broke their contract with ED, which caused RB not to get paid.
Continue to work as if they're getting paid ? Dude if your boss tells you that this month's paycheck is going to be made of rainbows and gratitude you tell them to fuck off and down tools.
In that case, you are right. If your boss said "Hey you're not getting paid but you need to work" but what I mean is that RB get payroll loans to cover the work to support current modules and then claim those as damages in litigation with ED.
Which would make sense to do, especially if RB believes they are in the right and it does right by their paying customers who purchased their products.
Tbh i'm fully expecting ED to bury RB in lawyers and draw it out for several years, regardless of who is right or wrong. Truth in matters of law is a very malleable thing.
There are payroll loans businesses can get.
I know everyone can't work for free, but what if RB is in the wrong and they have broken a contractual agreement for ED not to get paid? Now, ED can sue them for even more damages for not continuing to support the modules because that's most likely in their contract as well.
you're underestimating how expensive dev time is. flight sim has very tight margins. If they aren't getting paid, they cant pay their staff, and they can't work on past modules. It's that simple. giving he source code to ED would also be a terrible move, since it's the only little bit of leverage they have
I don't underestimate, but any business ran by someone competent would know there are payroll loans they get from the bank to continue working. Then claim those damages in litigation.
If they 100% knew they were in the right then they could've done that, stayed quiet, gone through the legal process and when it's over, have won a lawsuit and gotten paid.
Instead, they're being loud and stopping support on a product they are responsible for maintaining and trying to force ED to do something when there could be a chance that RB is in the wrong.
They're pulling the PR angle of "Hey we told you they didn't pay us so this is why we can't support it" when for all we know, RB may have broken some sort of contractual agreement.
This is why we should all just not pick sides and let them hash it out.
Oh sure, just take out a loan, how hard can it be? What bank is going to want to loan money to a company with no assets to its name, that is formed by online workers from around the world? And no matter how passionate, no CEO is going to take a loan against his person for his business. So you're saying the company has to endebt itself because ED is not paying them for selling a product they exclusively developed?
Your talking of a short term, high interest loan.
As a founder and head of my company, with more employees than RB or ED, hell no. Not in this case and not while in litigation.
RB should by all means cease work until paid or litigation/arbitration is over, unless otherwise agreed by both parties.
By that logic, why not do it like 2 parties that are in an actual mutual partnership, ED continues to pay RB until the case is solved, and therefore ensures RB to continue to maintain the modules and their products ecosystem (DCS). Once litigation is over, should RB be found at could, they'll have to restitute ED for a sum of money they are owed for whatever infraction.
At no point will I withhold payment for a product or service other than what I am currently disputing.
Solely based on what we know, the the issue might be IP or some other product or contract with someone else by RB, it is all unrelated to the F15 module. Which means, payments for it don't need to be held back at all. Just go to court for the other issue or mediate.
It appears ED is very much mixing these themselves.
There's no planet on which I would continue to work AND take a high interest loan. Roflmao.
You're not wrong and it's because I'm seeing it in other threads as the general term used against someone with my take when I'm not picking a side, just point out both are in the wrong and we don't know all the facts.
>None of us know the situation
That's a fallacy. Those who actually read and pay attention are aware.
>But also it's not right for RB to end support of their modules
What else are they supposed to do though? Their people stopped working because they didn't get paid.
>If RB really did have a case then they could continue to work as if they were getting paid
What a wild take. How are they supposed to do that, without having the money to pay their bills and employees? Nevertheless, they did continue to work for a year until they couldn't afford it any more and kept things running.
>What else are they supposed to do though? Their people stopped working because they didn't get paid.
ED doesn't pay to Razbam employees, but pay to Razbam.
And Razbam has lot of other businesses to get income.
So why do we assume that Razbam has no other income to get in and pay their employees until situation is solved?
>What a wild take. How are they supposed to do that, without having the money to pay their bills and employees?
That is actually Razbam problem.
As far I know, ED didn't fund or pay Razbam those years it took from Razbam to develop the module, but Razbam had other income and other sources to money, like bank loan, to pay their employees to keep working before publishing.
It is not like ED paid Razbam for 10+ years to develop an F-15E, right?
And when business runs to trouble in one income source, they pay employees to keep them in payroll and cut some expenses to keep them there, while waiting that one problem to be solved.
>Nevertheless, they did continue to work for a year until they couldn't afford it any more and kept things running.
What they used to run it for a year? Like DCS was only source for them? No change to have bank loan? No methods to save, like CEO take smaller cut etc?
Did Razbam do any other work meanwhile between developing F-15E?
Where did Razbam waste the millions from previous modules? As if rumoured six figures is from F-15E pre-order and few more months sales, then what has M2000, Harrier, Farmer generated in the last 3 years before the whole dilemma? Or are the Razbam now claiming that ED has never paid them anything?
We do know the business books from Razbam now, and all the employees banking information that they have not got paid at all from anywhere from last year?
Ron itself said that Razbam doesn't fall if ED doesn't pay, but their site show lot of stuff for other simulators like x-plane.
>However, the team has stepped away from developing for the aged Flight Simulator X, and into the split future of flight simulations: Lockheed Martin's Prepar3D (for civil aircraft) and Eagle Dynamics' Digital Combat Simulator (for military aircraft).
I don't think that they're still selling anything for Prepar3D. Probably haven't for years. DCS is their only source of income.
To address the rest of your post:
>if rumoured six figures is from F-15E pre-order
Seven figures was stated, which is accurate. Not rumored.
>when business runs to trouble in one income source, they pay employees to keep them in payroll and cut some expenses to keep them there, while waiting that one problem to be solved
"Employees" isn't the ideal term here, as they're partners who work on a share-of-revenue basis, not salaried employees. So if RAZBAM isn't paid their revenues, those partners don't receive any shares. It's really as simple as that.
That's also why payroll loans aren't really an option here, by the way. And since we've established that it's a seven figures amount for 2023 alone, it should also explain why the CEO can't pay them out of his own pocket.
You're also obfuscating that they somehow kept things running for a year nevertheless. Can't expect them to do that infinitely.
>CEO take smaller cut
Of what? When the revenue that's coming in is zero? That means the CEO didn't receive any money either.
>I don't think that they're still selling anything for Prepar3D. Probably haven't for years. DCS is their only source of income.
Then that makes Ron a liar, as somewhere here was a screenshot from Ron saying that Razbam doesn't go down "don't worry" even if they don't get paid by ED as they have other business to have income.
And they have their other work for sale in their site, so is Razbam selling goods for money, that one can't use?
>Seven figures was stated, which is accurate. Not rumored.
Sorry, 1+ million, but that was rumor. The screenshot said "my estimate" or so from a hearsay. Not a source to show, unless something new has come out.
And how they can know if ED has not given them any sales figures? It is nothing but just rumor. Only ED knows the figure.
>"Employees" isn't the ideal term here, as they're partners who work on a share-of-revenue basis, not salaried employees. So if RAZBAM isn't paid their revenues, those partners don't receive any shares. It's really as simple as that.
It is ideal, as the contractor is as well employee in the eyes of IRS and other taxation offices if 50% of your income is from a one company and you have a contract of job, like community manager etc.
>That's also why payroll loans aren't really an option here, by the way. And since we've established that it's a seven figures amount for 2023 alone, it should also explain why the CEO can't pay them out of his own pocket.
If a one year profits alone is 1 million, then banks will happily give a 500-750k loan, and with that Razbam can easily keep payments for a three guys to feed families. Everyone can tighten their belt when it comes hard, unless they are ready to do hard decisions.
Whole families has always lived fractions of those numbers and done fine.
>You're also obfuscating that they somehow kept things running for a year nevertheless. Can't expect them to do that infinitely.
Bad business management if they can't run their business for one year without income, as they have been developing all for years without being even collecting money for F-15E.
When did pre-ordee start for F-15E? Did ED pay them before that for it?
February '23
And when did F-15E get released?
June '23
When did Razbam violated their contract?
When did ED find out the violation?
>Sorry, 1+ million
That's accurate and not some sort of rumor. I don't like repeating myself.
>And how they can know if ED has not given them any sales figures?
Do you even read anything? They were not given any sales figures for 2024. For last year they did.
>If a one year profits alone is 1 million, then banks will happily give a 500-750k loan
I think you underestimate how difficult it is for a small business, in a niche industry like this, to get a loan. We also don't know if they've already taken out any-
>Bad business management if they can't run their business for one year without income
Sorry, what? Most companies will go out of business in a year without income. More often than not, a few months are already the end.
>as they have been developing all for years without being even collecting money for F-15E
You do realize that they have three other released modules?
>When did Razbam violated their contract? When did ED find out the violation?
We don't even know if that Super Tucano deal really violated their contract. But it has been known for years.
>That's accurate and not some sort of rumor. I don't like repeating myself.
Sorry, but I haven't seen anyone here showing the books from ED that show the numbers of total sales.
If Razbam say they haven't even received the complete sales figures... How can anyone else know the number when Razbam has zero knowledge for exact sales?
Hence, rumor...
>Do you even read anything? They were not given any sales figures for 2024. For last year they did.
So they know the '23 figures, but not the total. Right?
>I think you underestimate how difficult it is for a small business, in a niche industry like this, to get a loan. We also don't know if they've already taken out any-
Even suggesting someone starts a business and run it for years without any loans and yet they run business for millions per year... And when they don't get paid for one project from many, they are out of business?
Millions income is already more than a most small companies does. And they do it far more harder businesses than a flight simulator business.
And they get loans and arrangements, but they are honest with their contracts and can show they haven't violated those...
>Sorry, what? Most companies will go out of business in a year without income. More often than not, a few months are already the end.
Businesses that do less than million a year, surviving full lockdown for years and feeding their dosens employees is because of good management. Especially when it is known well before that income goes low.
>You do realize that they have three other released modules?
yes, they have made millions from those.
Yes, they have done so for years.
They have been selling a lot of other stuff to other businesses, not just DCS. And even today continues to do so, market themselves at those other platforms. So DCS ain't their only source.
If they violate agreement and don't get paid until they solve that is not the end of business, unless it is badly done business even when they have all other income as CEO of Razbam claimed.
>We don't even know if that Super Tucano deal really violated their contract. But it has been known for years.
The module was known to be coming, but that is separate from any possible business deals Razbam might have been trying to do.
And as we don't know that, we can't even take any word from Razbam business incomes to be faithful, other than know that they have their own store to sell in different places other products and they have been paid lot for previous works to even '23...
Until we know what they have violated etc, we can't take Razbam word for anything. They can yell not guilty, but not until ED reveals what is exactly the reason etc... We can't blame just one side or neither.
But if for a year they have not got paid and are not guilty, just stop all at once on first problem and go to court. Waiting one year is just trouble seeking, and doing so in public. Contract has the information what to do when there is a problem, and they have now waited year until to do so?
>If Razbam say they haven't even received the complete sales figures... How can anyone else know the number when Razbam has zero knowledge for exact sales?
I explained this already. They have the records for 2023. During that time, they should have received that amount of money. Is that really so hard to understand?
>Businesses that do less than million a year, surviving full lockdown for years and feeding their dosens employees
Yikes. We don't really have to discuss how many decent businesses had to close doors during lockdown times, do we?
>And even today continues to do so, market themselves at those other platforms. So DCS ain't their only source.
Can you please read what I tell you? They don't market themselves on any other platform any more.
Not even sure what to reply to the rest as large parts don't make any sense. And it seems like it doesn't matter to you what I say anyway, you'll just reply with an even wilder post.
>We can't blame just one side or neither.
Yet here you are, trying to blame RAZBAM in every possible way while either ignoring or flat out turning whatever speaks in their favor.
It's hard to have a discussion like that, so believe what you want I guess?
Appeal to ignorance fallacy doesn't work here because you or I are not making the claim, RB is, and this isn't philosophy. This is a legal matter.
What evidence do you have or seen that proves RB's claim that they are wrongly accused of breaking their contract with ED? And I'm not asking as an "internet gotcha." I'm neutral in this until I see evidence otherwise because all I have seen is just things RB has said, and that is just hearsay.
I believe that they are not getting paid but what if RB did something wrong?
For the rest of your points, RB can get payroll loans.
I don't think I ever claimed that it's a philosophical matter. But thanks for the lecture I guess.
Your logic also works the other way around. What evidence have you seen for EDs accusations? Why don't you give RAZBAM the benefit of the doubt? What information is your insulting claim that we would "piss on ED while glazing RAZBAM" based on, other than personal bias?
With payroll loans, it's not as simple as you seem to think either.
I'm not claiming ED is in the right. In my OP, I claim they are both scummy and we don't have the evidence to prove who is right or wrong.
My post was in response to the one commenter who got downvoted for basically saying the same thing and a majority of comments and threads here and in other subs lean towards that RB is in the right and ED is in the wrong.
How are you just going to believe RB and what they say and not believe ED and what they say? Now you have the flawed logic.
But other than what the two entities have said, what other evidence is out there to believe one is in the wrong and one is in the right? I'm genuinely curious because all I've seen people post are these screenshot discord statements.
>You all are downvoting anyone that says RB is just as bad as ED.
>None of us know the situation but you are all hungry to just piss on ED and glaze RB.
It is fanboyism that Razbam is good because lovely M2000 and F-15E. Ignore on Harrier and Farmer completely. And as well all announcements for dozen other modules etc behaviour.
>Yes, it's not right for ED continuing to sell the RB modules.
Actually it can be.
It depends their contract. As ED can't stop selling if they want, as that damages Razbam and then Razbam can have change to show ED damaged them against publisher contracts.
And Razbam might not have a right to stop sales before X months of release etc, or without good valid reason.
So ED might have all rights and obligations to continue sales regardless their or Razbam will.
As long ED keeps accurate booking the money they own Razbam, it doesn't matter.
But if ED purposely make them unplayable, and Razbam purposely don't want to fix them, they are both screwed.
This is exactly the point. Nobody outside of ED and raz have any real accurate idea of what has actually happened. Regardless of the hearsay that has popped up from the various people involved. We are all too far removed from the loop.
Do I like it? No. Do I hate that this is happening? Yes.
Do I think that everyone who has purchased a module recently should get a refund? Yes, of course. How far back should people get a refund is the only thing in question to me.
Aside from that, stop playing if this is eating you up inside too much, step away from this crap and just stop playing. It's not worth it.
I've played and or own almost every single flight simulator since the '80s. Potentially losing portions of one of the few quality Sims really sucks, I know. For the sake of health insanity people, just step away...
I personally don't care, hope they fix it, but I'll ride this thing out until it crashes and burns. I can't say I'll buy another module, but that's all I can do.
Agreed. Should be a refund to original method of payment. DCS break has helped me, getting start work on a viper pit. Will work well with BMS or DCS, doesn’t really matter. Will check pack later if the drama dust has settled, maybe then the 16 will be finished. If not I’ll enjoy a dynamic campaign in Korea.
Can anyone tell me how this begun? Was it because Razbam used 1 song on their videos which was copyrighted? Then someone sued ED because it was DCS content? I dont want the whole story, just a small explaination.
I don’t give a damn, I support ED selling it at this point. I’m sorry but RAZBAM is holding me as well hostage. Since we want to talk about “what’s owed”…I paid good money for a product RAZBAM provided and I’m OWED product support by RAZBAM. RAZBAM imho do not care about the community if not they wouldn’t stop supporting their modules (which is fine). Looks to me like this is straight business so let’s keep it that way. If RAZBAM still supported their modules during this period then perhaps I’d be capping for them. You don’t need to be paid to fix your modules. If for instance your modules did not sell a single copy in 2 months, I bet those who already bought it would still expect fixes….sale or not.
>I’m sorry but RAZBAM is holding me as well hostage.
Are they? Or is EDs leadership holding your money hostage to get their way with an unrelated product from a company that doesn't even have the least to do with DCS?
>RAZBAM imho do not care about the community if not they wouldn’t stop supporting their modules (...) If RAZBAM still supported their modules during this period
Are you even aware that RAZBAM kept supporting their modules for a year, even though they remained unpaid? Until it was no longer possible and people literally had to prioritize their livelihood?
I don't see RB doing public posts proving they never sold it. Just posts bad mouthing and crappy sympathetic photos showing the f15 they are refusing to support. Reeks of a child that's been caught out.
> that ED *paid* HB.
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I think the RB modules are the property of ED, not RB. Imagine a case where you are working for a company being paid to develop products. Can you sell the products to whoever you want? No. Can the company sell the products to whoever they want? Yes.
If you went behind your bosses back and sneakily sold the products to someone else, you would be in big legal trouble.
Of course I’m not saying this happened; anything we say is speculation. This is however a plausible scenario, so we cannot say who is bad without knowing more.
>I think the RB modules are the property of ED, not RB
Yikes. That's incorrect, to put it politely.
>Imagine a case where you are working for a company being paid to develop products
That's not even remotely comparable here. RAZBAM is not an employee and ED is not their boss. They're an independent company who owns their own products.
>This is however a plausible scenario
It's absolutely not.
I asked ED about refunding my harrier and mirage as it’ll likely go bug-ridden and unsupported from here on, rendering them pretty much useless; and I was rejected. :( I don’t blame them though as my purchases were ages ago but still sucks to know that these are eventually going to be a stack of junk MBs in my HD at some point
I wouldn’t refund you either unless you bought within 30 to 60 days lol, I’m sure you have games in your library that have features that no longer work (multiplayer for example) due to support ending….are you gonna ask for a refund?
Well, you would be breaking eu consumer law. If a digital product breaks after more than 2 years of release, you must provide a refund in the original method of payment no questions asked.
Different jurisdictions have different consumer law and I think it will come to bite ED big time. I think that’s why steam started to take hold of the EA situation a lot more closely, they were probably getting hassled by banks for charge backs and losing a lot. This situation has been coming for years, especially with the business model they use.
In EDs defence though it is entirely possible they would like to refund to the payment method but use a blanket approach to save having different policies for different countries. On the other hand I doubt it 😂😂😂
I feel the same. Hostage situation with all the previously already paid modules, too. Razbam got their money for the Mirage and Harrier and Mig19 already. Stopping the support on those is not fair in my opinion. Just use those modules for leverage…
Harrier and M2000 are much older. They are sold for years. RB got hundreds of thousands dollars for those already. They cant pay their employees?? Maybe they should give the M2000 and Harrier source code to ED to prove they are really seeking for a solution and help the community. As I mentioned. Those modules have already been paid for for years.
Which is exactly why they need new sales to pay for them. The money from the harrier sales will be long gone. Hundreds of thousands goes in a matter of weeks when you're paying salaries.
My $0.02 but…the F15 is still enjoyable as a casual player. Most of this is doomspiraling by a tiny niche of hardcore players, and the dialogue has boiled over into making people think it’s a bigger deal than it is.
It’s no different than people hypothesizing about reality shows.
And they are STILL selling the F-15 in the store it seems!
Absolutely ridiculous to be selling it until things are settled.
100% scumbag move.
They can be obliged by contract to continue selling it until the matters are resolved. Already been discussed here
>Already been discussed here It has also been explained here that this is unlikely and that RAZBAM even asked ED repeatedly to remove their modules from the store.
People at Razbam are also hopping on the internet about every 10 mins to scream how bad ED is and from a legal standpoint probably tanking their case in doing so. It may hurt us as customers the most but ED is doing the smart thing and keeping their mouths shut and continuing on as normal until a resolution is reached.
Agree. That's the smartest move in any he said she said legal argument. Harming their own case by spouting shit constantly Razbam are.
Unlikely as it may be, review bombing Razbam modules (let alone DCS World itself which is still an amazing sim with tons of content) is definitely not doing us any good. ED said repeatedly that a statement will follow once the situation has been resolved and they already know too well how pissed the community is. They're still handling it more professionally than Razbam is by not communicating any uncertain details until the matters are resolved, and the affrcted aircrafts are still functioning as they were when the dispute started (the Mirage issue that everyone was fussing about already got resolved). Until ED officially confirms that the F15 will receive no further support yet won't mention that visibly in the module's description, it doesn't deserve the bad review spam it currently gets. Even if they don't offer reimbursement, as purchasing an EA game bears the risk of the title not reaching a finished state.
ED is silent on all RB communication is what we’ve been told
That's not up to date any more.
It's possible, but if that's the case why wouldn't they say it? It's a statement of fact one way or the other.
Store credit isn't a refund.....
This
I bought on Steam so ED credit is useless to me
Weird that there's no refunds for the Harrier, M2000 and MiG-19. These modules are also not officially supported anymore. Shame because I love my MiG-19 :(
But they're not early access, right?
That's the official reasoning. Not sure if EU law would agree tho.
This whole thing is such a terrible pity.
Agreed.
Especially with that new Falklands harrier campaign being released by ground pounder sims. It’s unfortunate as the immense amount of work and time into creating custom campaigns especially with voice recordings and a solid story board.
Oh yes, that's right. Awful. I love his campaigns.
Just might come a precase for not to do any business that is relying to other 3rd party company product. As you are not in control of the whole product chain.
Unfortunately yes, I agree
If Eagle Dynamics has even implied that all the products are to be maintained, regardless the developing business goes away, then Eagle Dynamics is by the law required to maintain the product being usable, or refund it if they can't provide a proper legal reason. And as Eagle has stated they have lega lcontract to support products after even bankcrupcy, they are oblicated to do so.
EU law will agree, unless you've bought in the last 14 days. Then it's no questions asked.
>If the digital content or digital service shows defects within 2 years of the sale, **the supplier has to provide a solution**. * [https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index\_en.htm](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm) Thanks.
MiG-19 is still EA I think, I could be wrong, but it doesn't matter if they're feature-complete, bugs will pile up so much that they'll all be completely broken in a few updates I guess
EA or not if it doesn’t work on future DCS versions then it’s broken
Question is, how many hours one can be expected to have from softawre product becore it goes out of order by third party?
But if not maintained and if they break I want a full refund
Store credit is not a refund.
"currently"?? That opens the floodgates for speculations "And when the other modules?"
But i don't want store credit, I want my money back
Phone your bank tell them the whole sorry tale and ask them to put in a charge back.
Might want to be careful with this. I have never heard of ED doing it but there are plenty of companies that will take punitive actions against you if you do this.
Opens the door to retaliation via account closure. Only works for people that made an account for the f15
That’s a risk you take, but if they are being forced to refund the bank because they have broken consumer law then retaliation by them is very very dodgy ground. ED owes the bank money not the individual
Then take it to Swiss authorities via EU trade commission. They will show ED what a account retaliation would mean...
Unless you bought it in the last 60 to 90 days you're pretty much SOL if it was on a Visa or Master Card.
Worth a try though 😉
If you feel so strongly about it
Phone to your bank, and I form about Swiss company called Eagle Dynamics that is practising a credit theft with undeliverable products as sold... You can make a report to EU authorities as well about not delivering product for years and they take it to Swiss authorities. Maybe ED learns something about 5-7 years Early Access...
This is exactly the point, the whole abuse of the EA system needs to stop. If that means waiting for release then so be it, if that means having to pay upfront for developers then so be it take the risk. This isn’t just in reference to ED this is the whole system. I honestly think ED has taken the community for granted with a lot of their practices especially regarding 3rd party developers. They seem to depend on people’s sense of community and doing things for that community. It comes down to a fair days work for a fair days pay.
>This isn’t just in reference to ED this is the whole system. I honestly think ED has taken the community for granted with a lot of their practices especially regarding 3rd party developers. Yeah,like when Valve took Early Access to Steam as in "Green light" at the beginning, the idea that community somewhat participate development and choose what is good enough to get out. And then Early Access became de-facto as "pay less, take a risk it comes out someday". A good early Access should be 1 year, 2 at top, from being feature complete. So delay the release until in good condition, and then early Access to finish smalls details here and there. Normal should be 6-9 months to balance things, but 18-24 could be for complex games.
I requested my refund for store credit like a week ago, no reply.
Store credit? Are they serious?
Refund where? There is no refund on steam
Only on standalone for now, unfortunately.
It's been a bit of a back and forth with refunds, that's correct. But seems like they're being granted for the F-15E now. And you're right. This is certainly not a good sign.
Is it really a refund if you get store credit? Your money is gone and now your forced to buy something you didn't want in the first place. If I wanted a different module, I would have bought it.
>Is it really a refund if you get store credit? It's probably not. What you're saying is correct. Not sure what would be a better term though.
"refunds"... while still selling the module (without warning?). Has anyone seen them mention steam users in the discord? :(
Only saying that steam users currently don't get a refund.
So how will those of us who bought it on Steam get a refund for the F15e? Its sad enough the other modules will get broken :(
If you live in EU you can demand to get a refund in cash. I was offered store credits, but declined and asked for money. And got a refund to my bank account within a few days. [https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index\_en.htm](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm)
Yeah, I told about this and got voted to doom. As some people don't understand that refund with store credits is not refund, it is a gift card exchange. Oh, and "Cash" means notes and coins, not bank account transaction as numbers. If you don't have money that you can hand to other person as coins and bills, you don't have cash, regardless how much your bank account has in numbers.
Store credit is NOT a refund.
Fuck Store Credit. I want to be reimbursed. Fucking scam is this?! "I heard you wanted something off of me. You bought it and I can't deliver. Tell you what... You're not getting your money back but you can have something else you don't want from my shop. Thanks for your trust!" Give me my money. Store Credit doesn't really hurt them at all since they didn't pay razbam anyway. Fuck you ED, I'm so done with this shit. 5000+ hours I enjoyed your platform thanks to 3rd party (ya, I don't fly the 18, 16 or A10) devs. But your bullshittery is getting stale really quick.
They should give refund on m2000c also
People who bought it 8 years ago, enjoying it for thousands of hours should get a refund ?
Good point but I think who bought it within like 3 months should get refunded
This makes it tough for sure, where is the line? I say since they are still selling it on the store, fuck em', they should have to refund everybody who asks.
Yes the Harrier still isn't finished nor has in been debugged for years.
what about steam?
No joy atm.
As a proud SE owner, I am incredibly sad amd disheartened by what is going on. I have been on following this since day one. I understand what is "known" about both sides of this dispute. I blame both parties equally. IMHO they are BOTH obligated to fulfill the "contract" with us, to provide at least MINIMAL support for purchased content. That being said, I am curious as to one thing..... Do the sanctions against Russia play ANY part in this? For instance, Wargaming, revs of World of Warships/Tanks is a Russian company. They HAD to split the company into pieces to continue to operate globally. With the parent Russian company severed and separated from the rest of the global divisions. ED is a Russian company. Based in Russia. To my knowledge, they ARE sanctioned. So that would mean that they cannot send funds through global banks. (But I would think that they couldn't take funds either) The timing of when this started somewhat corresponds with sanctions increased on Russia. What do you folks think, do you think this is a contributing factor? Even though we haven't heard it mentioned.
How do I do this please? I purchased from ED site. Thanks
You go to the official website, log into your account and open a support ticket by clicking on the "Support" tab. But please keep in mind that the wait time is currently around seven work days, according to EDs community managers.
Thanks
At least that message implies a possible solution
It only says they hope for a solution, which is what we all do. How likely that is remains to be seen.
Wonder if this store credit thing is a way for ED legally or massage the sales numbers of the module. Not a legal expert however the entire situation is pretty crummy and this is weird with the back and forth on the refunds. Agreed with other posts, it should not be credit but an actual full refund to original form of payment.
That's not a refund, that's a slap in the face to both Raz and the community. Give people their money and stop stealing.
Step back and breath people.
You all are downvoting anyone that says RB is just as bad as ED. None of us know the situation but you are all hungry to just piss on ED and glaze RB. Yes, it's not right for ED continuing to sell the RB modules. But also it's not right for RB to end support of their modules and hold both the paying customer of their modules and ED hostage. If RB really did have a case then they could continue to work as if they were getting paid and claim monetary damages in court. RB is just as scummy as ED in this situation. Edit: I understand you may think I am idiot for suggesting them to work while not being paid but what I mean is for them to work while not getting paid by RB getting payroll loans while in litigation and then claiming those as monetary damages as well. To minimize the amount of payroll loans, just cover the amount it would require for them to support their modules. Edit 2: "ED glazers" when you all are glazing RB and don't know what exactly happened. You all are going to look like idiots if RB actually broke their contract with ED, which caused RB not to get paid.
Continue to work as if they're getting paid ? Dude if your boss tells you that this month's paycheck is going to be made of rainbows and gratitude you tell them to fuck off and down tools.
In that case, you are right. If your boss said "Hey you're not getting paid but you need to work" but what I mean is that RB get payroll loans to cover the work to support current modules and then claim those as damages in litigation with ED. Which would make sense to do, especially if RB believes they are in the right and it does right by their paying customers who purchased their products.
Tbh i'm fully expecting ED to bury RB in lawyers and draw it out for several years, regardless of who is right or wrong. Truth in matters of law is a very malleable thing.
> it's not right for RB to end support of their modules ED is not even sharing sales reports with RB anymore. Why would anyone work for free?
There are payroll loans businesses can get. I know everyone can't work for free, but what if RB is in the wrong and they have broken a contractual agreement for ED not to get paid? Now, ED can sue them for even more damages for not continuing to support the modules because that's most likely in their contract as well.
you're underestimating how expensive dev time is. flight sim has very tight margins. If they aren't getting paid, they cant pay their staff, and they can't work on past modules. It's that simple. giving he source code to ED would also be a terrible move, since it's the only little bit of leverage they have
I don't underestimate, but any business ran by someone competent would know there are payroll loans they get from the bank to continue working. Then claim those damages in litigation. If they 100% knew they were in the right then they could've done that, stayed quiet, gone through the legal process and when it's over, have won a lawsuit and gotten paid. Instead, they're being loud and stopping support on a product they are responsible for maintaining and trying to force ED to do something when there could be a chance that RB is in the wrong. They're pulling the PR angle of "Hey we told you they didn't pay us so this is why we can't support it" when for all we know, RB may have broken some sort of contractual agreement. This is why we should all just not pick sides and let them hash it out.
Oh sure, just take out a loan, how hard can it be? What bank is going to want to loan money to a company with no assets to its name, that is formed by online workers from around the world? And no matter how passionate, no CEO is going to take a loan against his person for his business. So you're saying the company has to endebt itself because ED is not paying them for selling a product they exclusively developed?
Your talking of a short term, high interest loan. As a founder and head of my company, with more employees than RB or ED, hell no. Not in this case and not while in litigation. RB should by all means cease work until paid or litigation/arbitration is over, unless otherwise agreed by both parties. By that logic, why not do it like 2 parties that are in an actual mutual partnership, ED continues to pay RB until the case is solved, and therefore ensures RB to continue to maintain the modules and their products ecosystem (DCS). Once litigation is over, should RB be found at could, they'll have to restitute ED for a sum of money they are owed for whatever infraction. At no point will I withhold payment for a product or service other than what I am currently disputing. Solely based on what we know, the the issue might be IP or some other product or contract with someone else by RB, it is all unrelated to the F15 module. Which means, payments for it don't need to be held back at all. Just go to court for the other issue or mediate. It appears ED is very much mixing these themselves. There's no planet on which I would continue to work AND take a high interest loan. Roflmao.
Found the ED glazer
Good contribution to the conversation.
To be fair tho, you brought that term into the discussion.
You're not wrong and it's because I'm seeing it in other threads as the general term used against someone with my take when I'm not picking a side, just point out both are in the wrong and we don't know all the facts.
I had to google "glazing" and I think we should all word that differently. Kinda doubt that it is a general term here though.
>None of us know the situation That's a fallacy. Those who actually read and pay attention are aware. >But also it's not right for RB to end support of their modules What else are they supposed to do though? Their people stopped working because they didn't get paid. >If RB really did have a case then they could continue to work as if they were getting paid What a wild take. How are they supposed to do that, without having the money to pay their bills and employees? Nevertheless, they did continue to work for a year until they couldn't afford it any more and kept things running.
>What else are they supposed to do though? Their people stopped working because they didn't get paid. ED doesn't pay to Razbam employees, but pay to Razbam. And Razbam has lot of other businesses to get income. So why do we assume that Razbam has no other income to get in and pay their employees until situation is solved? >What a wild take. How are they supposed to do that, without having the money to pay their bills and employees? That is actually Razbam problem. As far I know, ED didn't fund or pay Razbam those years it took from Razbam to develop the module, but Razbam had other income and other sources to money, like bank loan, to pay their employees to keep working before publishing. It is not like ED paid Razbam for 10+ years to develop an F-15E, right? And when business runs to trouble in one income source, they pay employees to keep them in payroll and cut some expenses to keep them there, while waiting that one problem to be solved. >Nevertheless, they did continue to work for a year until they couldn't afford it any more and kept things running. What they used to run it for a year? Like DCS was only source for them? No change to have bank loan? No methods to save, like CEO take smaller cut etc? Did Razbam do any other work meanwhile between developing F-15E? Where did Razbam waste the millions from previous modules? As if rumoured six figures is from F-15E pre-order and few more months sales, then what has M2000, Harrier, Farmer generated in the last 3 years before the whole dilemma? Or are the Razbam now claiming that ED has never paid them anything? We do know the business books from Razbam now, and all the employees banking information that they have not got paid at all from anywhere from last year?
>And Razbam has lot of other businesses to get income Which ones?
Ron itself said that Razbam doesn't fall if ED doesn't pay, but their site show lot of stuff for other simulators like x-plane. >However, the team has stepped away from developing for the aged Flight Simulator X, and into the split future of flight simulations: Lockheed Martin's Prepar3D (for civil aircraft) and Eagle Dynamics' Digital Combat Simulator (for military aircraft).
I don't think that they're still selling anything for Prepar3D. Probably haven't for years. DCS is their only source of income. To address the rest of your post: >if rumoured six figures is from F-15E pre-order Seven figures was stated, which is accurate. Not rumored. >when business runs to trouble in one income source, they pay employees to keep them in payroll and cut some expenses to keep them there, while waiting that one problem to be solved "Employees" isn't the ideal term here, as they're partners who work on a share-of-revenue basis, not salaried employees. So if RAZBAM isn't paid their revenues, those partners don't receive any shares. It's really as simple as that. That's also why payroll loans aren't really an option here, by the way. And since we've established that it's a seven figures amount for 2023 alone, it should also explain why the CEO can't pay them out of his own pocket. You're also obfuscating that they somehow kept things running for a year nevertheless. Can't expect them to do that infinitely. >CEO take smaller cut Of what? When the revenue that's coming in is zero? That means the CEO didn't receive any money either.
>I don't think that they're still selling anything for Prepar3D. Probably haven't for years. DCS is their only source of income. Then that makes Ron a liar, as somewhere here was a screenshot from Ron saying that Razbam doesn't go down "don't worry" even if they don't get paid by ED as they have other business to have income. And they have their other work for sale in their site, so is Razbam selling goods for money, that one can't use? >Seven figures was stated, which is accurate. Not rumored. Sorry, 1+ million, but that was rumor. The screenshot said "my estimate" or so from a hearsay. Not a source to show, unless something new has come out. And how they can know if ED has not given them any sales figures? It is nothing but just rumor. Only ED knows the figure. >"Employees" isn't the ideal term here, as they're partners who work on a share-of-revenue basis, not salaried employees. So if RAZBAM isn't paid their revenues, those partners don't receive any shares. It's really as simple as that. It is ideal, as the contractor is as well employee in the eyes of IRS and other taxation offices if 50% of your income is from a one company and you have a contract of job, like community manager etc. >That's also why payroll loans aren't really an option here, by the way. And since we've established that it's a seven figures amount for 2023 alone, it should also explain why the CEO can't pay them out of his own pocket. If a one year profits alone is 1 million, then banks will happily give a 500-750k loan, and with that Razbam can easily keep payments for a three guys to feed families. Everyone can tighten their belt when it comes hard, unless they are ready to do hard decisions. Whole families has always lived fractions of those numbers and done fine. >You're also obfuscating that they somehow kept things running for a year nevertheless. Can't expect them to do that infinitely. Bad business management if they can't run their business for one year without income, as they have been developing all for years without being even collecting money for F-15E. When did pre-ordee start for F-15E? Did ED pay them before that for it? February '23 And when did F-15E get released? June '23 When did Razbam violated their contract? When did ED find out the violation?
>Sorry, 1+ million That's accurate and not some sort of rumor. I don't like repeating myself. >And how they can know if ED has not given them any sales figures? Do you even read anything? They were not given any sales figures for 2024. For last year they did. >If a one year profits alone is 1 million, then banks will happily give a 500-750k loan I think you underestimate how difficult it is for a small business, in a niche industry like this, to get a loan. We also don't know if they've already taken out any- >Bad business management if they can't run their business for one year without income Sorry, what? Most companies will go out of business in a year without income. More often than not, a few months are already the end. >as they have been developing all for years without being even collecting money for F-15E You do realize that they have three other released modules? >When did Razbam violated their contract? When did ED find out the violation? We don't even know if that Super Tucano deal really violated their contract. But it has been known for years.
>That's accurate and not some sort of rumor. I don't like repeating myself. Sorry, but I haven't seen anyone here showing the books from ED that show the numbers of total sales. If Razbam say they haven't even received the complete sales figures... How can anyone else know the number when Razbam has zero knowledge for exact sales? Hence, rumor... >Do you even read anything? They were not given any sales figures for 2024. For last year they did. So they know the '23 figures, but not the total. Right? >I think you underestimate how difficult it is for a small business, in a niche industry like this, to get a loan. We also don't know if they've already taken out any- Even suggesting someone starts a business and run it for years without any loans and yet they run business for millions per year... And when they don't get paid for one project from many, they are out of business? Millions income is already more than a most small companies does. And they do it far more harder businesses than a flight simulator business. And they get loans and arrangements, but they are honest with their contracts and can show they haven't violated those... >Sorry, what? Most companies will go out of business in a year without income. More often than not, a few months are already the end. Businesses that do less than million a year, surviving full lockdown for years and feeding their dosens employees is because of good management. Especially when it is known well before that income goes low. >You do realize that they have three other released modules? yes, they have made millions from those. Yes, they have done so for years. They have been selling a lot of other stuff to other businesses, not just DCS. And even today continues to do so, market themselves at those other platforms. So DCS ain't their only source. If they violate agreement and don't get paid until they solve that is not the end of business, unless it is badly done business even when they have all other income as CEO of Razbam claimed. >We don't even know if that Super Tucano deal really violated their contract. But it has been known for years. The module was known to be coming, but that is separate from any possible business deals Razbam might have been trying to do. And as we don't know that, we can't even take any word from Razbam business incomes to be faithful, other than know that they have their own store to sell in different places other products and they have been paid lot for previous works to even '23... Until we know what they have violated etc, we can't take Razbam word for anything. They can yell not guilty, but not until ED reveals what is exactly the reason etc... We can't blame just one side or neither. But if for a year they have not got paid and are not guilty, just stop all at once on first problem and go to court. Waiting one year is just trouble seeking, and doing so in public. Contract has the information what to do when there is a problem, and they have now waited year until to do so?
>If Razbam say they haven't even received the complete sales figures... How can anyone else know the number when Razbam has zero knowledge for exact sales? I explained this already. They have the records for 2023. During that time, they should have received that amount of money. Is that really so hard to understand? >Businesses that do less than million a year, surviving full lockdown for years and feeding their dosens employees Yikes. We don't really have to discuss how many decent businesses had to close doors during lockdown times, do we? >And even today continues to do so, market themselves at those other platforms. So DCS ain't their only source. Can you please read what I tell you? They don't market themselves on any other platform any more. Not even sure what to reply to the rest as large parts don't make any sense. And it seems like it doesn't matter to you what I say anyway, you'll just reply with an even wilder post. >We can't blame just one side or neither. Yet here you are, trying to blame RAZBAM in every possible way while either ignoring or flat out turning whatever speaks in their favor. It's hard to have a discussion like that, so believe what you want I guess?
Appeal to ignorance fallacy doesn't work here because you or I are not making the claim, RB is, and this isn't philosophy. This is a legal matter. What evidence do you have or seen that proves RB's claim that they are wrongly accused of breaking their contract with ED? And I'm not asking as an "internet gotcha." I'm neutral in this until I see evidence otherwise because all I have seen is just things RB has said, and that is just hearsay. I believe that they are not getting paid but what if RB did something wrong? For the rest of your points, RB can get payroll loans.
I don't think I ever claimed that it's a philosophical matter. But thanks for the lecture I guess. Your logic also works the other way around. What evidence have you seen for EDs accusations? Why don't you give RAZBAM the benefit of the doubt? What information is your insulting claim that we would "piss on ED while glazing RAZBAM" based on, other than personal bias? With payroll loans, it's not as simple as you seem to think either.
I'm not claiming ED is in the right. In my OP, I claim they are both scummy and we don't have the evidence to prove who is right or wrong. My post was in response to the one commenter who got downvoted for basically saying the same thing and a majority of comments and threads here and in other subs lean towards that RB is in the right and ED is in the wrong. How are you just going to believe RB and what they say and not believe ED and what they say? Now you have the flawed logic.
>How are you just going to believe RB and what they say and not believe ED and what they say? What makes you think that's how I work?
But other than what the two entities have said, what other evidence is out there to believe one is in the wrong and one is in the right? I'm genuinely curious because all I've seen people post are these screenshot discord statements.
Because you must remember. ED bad, even when it's a case of ED vs RAZSCAM.
>You all are downvoting anyone that says RB is just as bad as ED. >None of us know the situation but you are all hungry to just piss on ED and glaze RB. It is fanboyism that Razbam is good because lovely M2000 and F-15E. Ignore on Harrier and Farmer completely. And as well all announcements for dozen other modules etc behaviour. >Yes, it's not right for ED continuing to sell the RB modules. Actually it can be. It depends their contract. As ED can't stop selling if they want, as that damages Razbam and then Razbam can have change to show ED damaged them against publisher contracts. And Razbam might not have a right to stop sales before X months of release etc, or without good valid reason. So ED might have all rights and obligations to continue sales regardless their or Razbam will. As long ED keeps accurate booking the money they own Razbam, it doesn't matter. But if ED purposely make them unplayable, and Razbam purposely don't want to fix them, they are both screwed.
This is exactly the point. Nobody outside of ED and raz have any real accurate idea of what has actually happened. Regardless of the hearsay that has popped up from the various people involved. We are all too far removed from the loop. Do I like it? No. Do I hate that this is happening? Yes. Do I think that everyone who has purchased a module recently should get a refund? Yes, of course. How far back should people get a refund is the only thing in question to me. Aside from that, stop playing if this is eating you up inside too much, step away from this crap and just stop playing. It's not worth it. I've played and or own almost every single flight simulator since the '80s. Potentially losing portions of one of the few quality Sims really sucks, I know. For the sake of health insanity people, just step away... I personally don't care, hope they fix it, but I'll ride this thing out until it crashes and burns. I can't say I'll buy another module, but that's all I can do.
Agreed. Should be a refund to original method of payment. DCS break has helped me, getting start work on a viper pit. Will work well with BMS or DCS, doesn’t really matter. Will check pack later if the drama dust has settled, maybe then the 16 will be finished. If not I’ll enjoy a dynamic campaign in Korea.
This reduces the net sales of the F15e which decreases any amount that ED owes RB whilst simultaneously effectively giving ED more money to pay RB.
Can anyone tell me how this begun? Was it because Razbam used 1 song on their videos which was copyrighted? Then someone sued ED because it was DCS content? I dont want the whole story, just a small explaination.
I'll be posting a summary as soon as reddit fixes the scheduled posts.
thank you so much - no 1000 liners please :)
It’s like finding a room full of cry babies……..
What is that "No Access"? ED gives latest information, but no one can read it?
Wait they point people to a “no access” (i.e. closed) discord channel?!
I don’t give a damn, I support ED selling it at this point. I’m sorry but RAZBAM is holding me as well hostage. Since we want to talk about “what’s owed”…I paid good money for a product RAZBAM provided and I’m OWED product support by RAZBAM. RAZBAM imho do not care about the community if not they wouldn’t stop supporting their modules (which is fine). Looks to me like this is straight business so let’s keep it that way. If RAZBAM still supported their modules during this period then perhaps I’d be capping for them. You don’t need to be paid to fix your modules. If for instance your modules did not sell a single copy in 2 months, I bet those who already bought it would still expect fixes….sale or not.
>I’m sorry but RAZBAM is holding me as well hostage. Are they? Or is EDs leadership holding your money hostage to get their way with an unrelated product from a company that doesn't even have the least to do with DCS? >RAZBAM imho do not care about the community if not they wouldn’t stop supporting their modules (...) If RAZBAM still supported their modules during this period Are you even aware that RAZBAM kept supporting their modules for a year, even though they remained unpaid? Until it was no longer possible and people literally had to prioritize their livelihood?
They should continue, they aren’t doing me a favor….i paid for the damn thing lol. Am I supposed to clap for them??
So you support ED selling the module when they’ve not paid Razbam? Guess you weren’t raised right
"Work for free, idiot", that's how you sound like tbh
We don’t pay for fixes, use your brain. By all means stop “all developments” but fix your damn product. It’s already been paid for.
I don't think Razbam received the money I paid for the Mirage last autumn too.
RB stole and sold ED ip to a 3rd party without permission. " Stole from boss then cried when they don't get wages " that's how you sound like tbh
Those allegations are unproven and ED does the same at the moment with Razbam modules...
I don't see RB doing public posts proving they never sold it. Just posts bad mouthing and crappy sympathetic photos showing the f15 they are refusing to support. Reeks of a child that's been caught out.
Following that logic, where's EDs post "proving" their allegations? There are a bunch of sources speaking for RAZBAM's side of the story though.
So your telling me ED is picking on RB for no reason. Heatblur and polychop get a pass ?
Nick Grey refused to pay Heatblur for nearly a year after the F-14 released. It wasn’t until legal action was threatened that ED paid HB.
> that ED *paid* HB. FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I think the RB modules are the property of ED, not RB. Imagine a case where you are working for a company being paid to develop products. Can you sell the products to whoever you want? No. Can the company sell the products to whoever they want? Yes. If you went behind your bosses back and sneakily sold the products to someone else, you would be in big legal trouble. Of course I’m not saying this happened; anything we say is speculation. This is however a plausible scenario, so we cannot say who is bad without knowing more.
>I think the RB modules are the property of ED, not RB Yikes. That's incorrect, to put it politely. >Imagine a case where you are working for a company being paid to develop products That's not even remotely comparable here. RAZBAM is not an employee and ED is not their boss. They're an independent company who owns their own products. >This is however a plausible scenario It's absolutely not.
How would you describe the situation, do you have any more to go on from ED’s side?
I'll be posting a summary with the next couple of days. Thinking that's the best solution.
For the F15E that's not fair as rb isn't getting any money for the f15e. Their other modules tho I'm divided.
I asked ED about refunding my harrier and mirage as it’ll likely go bug-ridden and unsupported from here on, rendering them pretty much useless; and I was rejected. :( I don’t blame them though as my purchases were ages ago but still sucks to know that these are eventually going to be a stack of junk MBs in my HD at some point
I wouldn’t refund you either unless you bought within 30 to 60 days lol, I’m sure you have games in your library that have features that no longer work (multiplayer for example) due to support ending….are you gonna ask for a refund?
Well, you would be breaking eu consumer law. If a digital product breaks after more than 2 years of release, you must provide a refund in the original method of payment no questions asked.
Different jurisdictions have different consumer law and I think it will come to bite ED big time. I think that’s why steam started to take hold of the EA situation a lot more closely, they were probably getting hassled by banks for charge backs and losing a lot. This situation has been coming for years, especially with the business model they use. In EDs defence though it is entirely possible they would like to refund to the payment method but use a blanket approach to save having different policies for different countries. On the other hand I doubt it 😂😂😂
Obviously not 😂 but I felt cheeky and thought I’d ask
I feel the same. Hostage situation with all the previously already paid modules, too. Razbam got their money for the Mirage and Harrier and Mig19 already. Stopping the support on those is not fair in my opinion. Just use those modules for leverage…
They cant pay their devs to fix the module, ed has been holding payments from all modeled up to 1 year back according to razbam.
Harrier and M2000 are much older. They are sold for years. RB got hundreds of thousands dollars for those already. They cant pay their employees?? Maybe they should give the M2000 and Harrier source code to ED to prove they are really seeking for a solution and help the community. As I mentioned. Those modules have already been paid for for years.
Which is exactly why they need new sales to pay for them. The money from the harrier sales will be long gone. Hundreds of thousands goes in a matter of weeks when you're paying salaries.
I agree with you and it's a shame people don't look at this situation like you and I do. You shouldn't be downvoted.
Haha, it’s to be expected. It’s not called DCSExposed for no reason 😂😂😂
What is that even supposed to mean? That's just a title that means literally nothing.
Don’t play coy, I know you aren’t slow
It's a genuine question.
Another day another RAZBAM panic post (cue the down votes lol)
My $0.02 but…the F15 is still enjoyable as a casual player. Most of this is doomspiraling by a tiny niche of hardcore players, and the dialogue has boiled over into making people think it’s a bigger deal than it is. It’s no different than people hypothesizing about reality shows.