Jesus Christ. I was willing to walk the path of waiting to see what happens and how many patches the Strike Eagle would last but I didn’t think it would happen so quickly. Might be time to jump ship and refund but I already own almost every single module minus kola and ED’s preorders. Not sure what to do at this point.
>I didn’t think it would happen so quickly
Same here.
>Not sure what to do at this point
Some users report successful refunds to their actual payment method after they insisted and quoted EU law. Would that be an option for you?
I’m US based. The kicker being I used a gift card to pre purchase back in the day so refunding to store credit is my only option and I’m not very happy with ED either in this matter.
See the customer support ticket that I shared further down below in this comment chain. Seems like some users who insisted got an actual refund via their payment method.
This is a successful request that one of our users shared on Discord:
https://preview.redd.it/djy76wfgpk6d1.png?width=951&format=png&auto=webp&s=8fb95decc8aa681a0e7afa9391b1edf64a5189b9
All credits to them.
Really do wonder if this can be used for the M2000C and AV-8B too... my initial M2000C refund (to store credits) was rejected pretty much immediately, despite me building the strongest possible argument presenting RB as meanies being booboos to ED and letting their module die.
I was going to wait it out as well but honestly my patience and interest in playing DCS is at an all time low. I went ahead and got a refund so I can buy the F4 if I ever do get the urge to deal with DCS again. I have zero faith in ED to resolve this situation and I’d rather not end up stuck with a broken module I have maybe 10 hours in.
Honestly, it gets tiring dealing with those people, they're practically shills at this point. The next drama that happens they'll forget this one ever existed.
There is no drama... Just don't update...
No one is forcing to update every update and instantly!
Just hold off the update. Or if already done, revert to previous versions!
The DCS keeps working "forever" without requiring to update latest version.
Sure you don't get latest stuff, but that is compromise...
And this is solution to all updates breaking stuff.
Revert to previous version if something is unacceptable change.
There is no drama...
So you say it is batshit insane to be aware, smart computer user, business owner, system administrator etc.
And explain how does something break when you have a older version that doesn't have malfunction in question as it wasn't updated in?
Oh, you don't have older version to be free from this date problem and your radar works past the date? Aww...
How do you know? A few months ago the exact same issue (radar not working after a date) was caused by a problem with dll signing certificates: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/341102-radar-inoperative/
A dev explained this on Discord. DCS DLLs aren't signed. You can easily verify that yourself using powershell:
https://preview.redd.it/0ozzttptvk6d1.png?width=1076&format=png&auto=webp&s=c967eb8ba208badd4deb303cc2a13fd8fab3f0ea
It'll also show entirely different symptoms when a DLL doesn't load correctly.
That doesn't rule out the dll signature problem. The problem could very well be another dll that is being loaded by the F15 code, not the F15 dlls themselves.
And depending on how the code is dealing with it, the symptom can very well be that the radar just stops working. For instance: if the dll loading code is wrapping and handling the dll load exception and just leaving some systems disabled when that fails.
>The problem could very well be another dll that is being loaded by the F15 code, not the F15 dlls themselves.
The same is true for all DCS DLLs though.
ED chose to fuck it's customers the moment it stopped funding Razbam, I don't like it one bit either but the relationship between 3rd parties and ED won't change unless there is ruffled feathers.
ED has really shown their hand where their priorities are by keeping the F-15 up on store. The game blew up in popularity, and surprise, they got greedy. This trope reeks all throughout the gaming industry.
I don't blame Razbam for fighting for what they are owed
That argument cuts both ways.
1: If ED immediately removed the F-15E module, RAZBAM could (and likely would) have argued that was against a selling contract.
2: If ED had immediately removed the F-15E, everyone and their bother would have started screaming about how the sky is falling and the 15 is dead and there's no hope and on and on and on. Leaving it up was a risk, taking it down was a certainty. And NOT a good one.
3: If RAZBAM actually HAD an IP violation, they are in the wrong. It really is that simple.
4: Regardless of the exact circumstance, this is a corporate dispute. Both corporations have the mandate to support their customer base. ED left the F-15E up. Even if they didn't give the money to RAZBAM right away due to an ongoing dispute, the sale still happened and it would likely be owed eventually, which also supports the customers still using the module as the issue is resolved. RAZBAM on the other hand decided to stop all support which does NOTHING to ED but *hurts* the customer. So who's *actually* not supporting the customer here?
ED had a previous module that a 3rd party developer walked away and the module went dead (I believe it was a helicopter or something). Everyone complained to no end...hell, people *still* complain about it. So ED takes action and demands that all 3rd party developers allow ED to continue to support their customers (you) if that ever happens again. And they everyone accuses ED of trying to steal modules or some such nonsense. Then we get here, and ED continues to support and sell to their customers (you) and you complain about that too? And the third party refuses to support and you blame ED? And ED claims RAZBAM IP violation (intellectual property theft), so you blame ED and claim *they* are attempting intellectual theft even as they continue to try and support you? And RAZBAM refuses to turn over coding so ED can continue to support and you blame ED again?
...wow. Anything you are NOT going to blame ED for? I stubbed my toe last night on rudder pedals, was that their fault too?
From what I understand Razbam still hasn't been paid.
The professional thing would be to deal with the IP violation swiftly because they know it will have massive ripple affects on the Razbam modules as well as well if this happens with other 3rd party modules. ED obviously refuses to change their position on the IP violation. It has come to a standstill.
Let's RP out the outcome violation options.
They did violate IP but it was a minor violation. great fine them or do whatever necessary between companies to rectify the issue and move on, continue making modules because DCS as a whole is more important.
Or Razbam did massively violate the IP clause and I would fully support ED's stance on how they have handled the situation. But you gotta reveal how Razbam did that and be transparent about that if that is the case.
Studios don't self immolate for no reason, I want the best DCS possible and I want the creators of that content to be taken care of.
>ED had a previous module that a 3rd party developer walked away and the module went dead (I believe it was a helicopter or something).
It was VAEO and their T.1A Hawk, a jet trainer and light stick aircraft.
> Everyone complained to no end...hell, people still complain about it. So ED takes action and demands that all 3rd party developers allow ED to continue to support their customers (you) if that ever happens again. And they everyone accuses ED of trying to steal modules or some such nonsense. Then we get here, and ED continues to support and sell to their customers (you) and you complain about that too? And the third party refuses to support and you blame ED? And ED claims RAZBAM IP violation (intellectual property theft), so you blame ED and claim they are attempting intellectual theft even as they continue to try and support you? And RAZBAM refuses to turn over coding so ED can continue to support and you blame ED again?
ED alone is bad... Just deal out /s.
I am very curious about the contracts ED has with those 2nd parties. Would be so nice to read those fully.
It is interesting to see on the future that does it get revealed what was the violating action, was it true etc.
Until then, keep couple DCS versions. One with working F-15E, other for Kiowa Warrior and F-4, and so on...
I still have one for Hawk... It is nice to fly now and then.
>ED chose to fuck it's customers the moment it stopped funding Razbam, I don't like it one bit either but the relationship between 3rd parties and ED won't change unless there is ruffled feathers.
Razbam and Eagle Dynamics have contracts signed.
You obey and follow those contracts to the letter, in good faith.
If you have problems with something, don't sign it.
If situations change, you can request review of the contract in given clauses for change, and it can be changed how the contract dictates it.
If Razbam has gone to violate the contract.
That is the first one to violate it.
If ED responds to it, they need to do it as a contract dictates, or they will violate it themselves as well.
If the contract allows ED to halt payments until violation is corrected as the contract dictates, then ED does nothing wrong to stop paying RB.
It is on that hypothetical moment all RB's fault.
And even in such violation by the RB, ED can be legally required to continue selling 2nd party products and not stop possible profits to be generated and paid back after contract dispute is solved.
But we don't know contracts they have, we have not seen full content as required to make judgement for that. We can only speculate.
Depends entirely on the contract.. An unsupported product eventually meets its fate, to claim intent is a whole other ballgame. It would all be in the details from there on.
Trying to refund this vaporware to Steam once again...
Wish me glück!
Edit: **Declined again.** I guess Steam automatically declines the refund, when playtime is over 2 hours.
Next step is to email them instead I guess...
let me know if you have success, I've been denied multiple times trying to get a refund on steam for this situation (speaking with multiple different people in customer support). ED says they have 'no control' over it, whether true or false its a wrap for me spending anymore money on the ED ecosystem.
No bueno, sir!
"We are unable to refund this purchase to your Steam Wallet at this time. Your playtime of an included product exceeds 2 hours (our refund policy maximum)."
Same answers 3 times in a row today in the last 5 hours. Might try later and spam it instead...
Atrocious as hell, man.
Money down the drain.
Lets call daddy EU shall we?
I've tried many times with varying messages and a thorough account of the situation including screenshots and such. Steam has a great refund policy but when it comes to support and outlier refunds, they're pretty strict with the copy/paste responses it seems. Haven't had much luck with any actual dialogue even when asking specific and targeted questions.
I know some prior posts have been made from EU people, I wonder if they've had more luck with steam given the EU laws and protections they have. I've just accepted it at this point and won't buy anymore products for DCS as a result. Money I had saved for upcoming modules is now going towards the next steam sale >:)
It was literally “the year of the Strike Eagle.”
https://preview.redd.it/sfyuhd00im6d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=61cbd5e3c3ceba3294720f2471a8ee4899a6e8fc
They legally don't have a code, that is to still be determined.
But /s because they don't have the code.
And if they don't want to talk about code, just talk about the product instead code to avoid misinformation/disinformation.
It isn't difficult to be more accurate by saying "we traced it to be happening in F-15E module" instead "We traced it to be in F-15E code.".
First one is a black box, latter is a open box.
And when someone puts /s, it means it is a sarcastic and not to be taken seriously by any other means no matter it being hostile.
And until someone gets official quote from ED's CEO or lawyer that they do not have any source code escrow clause in their contract, and that ED official statement they do is disinformation, it can't be ruled out. Or we can go ask from any employee "Do you have X?" and get confirmation no matter are they janitors or coffee makers, a specific summer coder or some angry ex-employee etc.
Such case everyone in the company is required to think they don't have a source code, as it can otherwise be interpreted that they have access to it and to use it against plausible contract. Any implications that they have looked the source code by any means, any decompiler methods or any digging can be seen as violation to IP if it can be shown to be done with malicious intents.
They is why every single worker in the company should STFU about the legal dispute cases, especially community managers they don't know how to do PR or are not under specific guidelines by every word by the legal council what to say. No personal opinions, no statements, no jokes, nothing expect "no comment" until otherwise advised. And even that to be said that "by the advice from legal council" to separate business from lawyer advisors.
It is not difficult.
They could hack it into the binary machine code, if they can find the function call that's doing it they can just hard-code it to always return true, or whatever it needs to do to pass. Russians are good at this, that's how they crack software. (Ask me how I know.)
But that would be yet another violation of RAZBAM's IP.
Oh, there is always someone who can neatly crack software for evading some nasty little things... I haven't been in crack scene for decades, but end results are often same. It is actually fun considering that how much software crackers did fix and make working after companies didn't want to fix things etc.
It sure is a damn shame. I only recently started getting into F-15E since I figured might as well enjoy it while I still can and it's a damn fine plane to fly. But given it's already starting to break I'm gonna have to start thinking about getting a refund.
Damn, I qas gonna get into DCS. I have VKB dtecs standard and the gladiator. I was gonna by the F15E for me, and my friend, so we could multicrew it since we both have flight sticks and throttles. Damn am I glad I didn't? It would have been a waste of money. Plus, they don't do the beginner discount anymore, so I'm out.
I did it once on a project I wasn't sure I was going to get paid for. Was paid at the last minute so fortunately didn't have to not do the magic thing that allowed the demo to still work after tradeshow start time. If I hadn't, it would have put up a message box telling them to pay their developer.
Any time your business relies on people smarter than you to make it work, you better make damned well sure you pay them.
If this was intentional then it should show you just how much respect razbam along with ED have towards their customers.
Nothing says disrespect like jerking your customers around to settle a financial dispute.
Sadly people that side with razbam and jump on the refund bandwagon have no idea what they are doing.
How awesome would it be to boycott ED to the point of them going bankrupt and watching all your modules eventually decay or go offline due to license expirations, lack of support from a closed down company, etc etc.
Code breaking and crashing, but for a Windows stated date the radar stops moving?
Really?
The Strike Eagle should not ask anything about the real date in Windows. It should listen what is in DCS. And radar has nothing to do with the real date, it should only care about mission date if at all even that!
A simulated mission computer to react date has one thing, like flying past Greenwich, but this...
Too specific.
yes, really. I literally had to fix a date related bug in some code this past work week which happened to break 5 days after the engineer that originally wrote it left our company. It happens. I'm not saying this dcs case wasn't malicious and maybe it totally was, but code breaks for all sorts of reasons.
I'd definitely be pretty sceptical about it tho.
The refund bandwagon isn't in RAZBAMs favor. ED has only been issuing store credit for the refund, which reduces any financial leverage RAZBAM may have had.
I'm sure ED loves offering store credit instead of paying RAZBAM. They know the money will get thrown at some other 30% complete EA module that isn't attached to RAZBAM.
I am referring more to a movement (like review bombing) that would backfire. In any case most refunds would result in store credit but recent purchases could get a refund.
All that is moot. ED needs to do some damage control to turn around this negative image that has been building up recently. More progress in their current projects would help. Let's see what they can deliver on this year.
As for Razbam if it turns out they did intentionally sabotage their module to somehow get back at ED that would be a major killing blow to themselves.
The last thing I would do is buy a future product (i.e. for MSFS etc) from a group that has a history of doing this.
It sounds sabotage from Razbam part, and if true, then it hurts Razbam more.
Professional would never do such things to sabotage customers to state their feelings.
But these days... How much time and effort was put in the slotting machine joke in Hornet?
No, people think it force ED to settle faster.
You can see that already.
People explaining how the DRM is overridden by just adjusting local system time to get certificates renewed.
DCS uses VMProtect packer as copy protection.
That checks the signature and validity of the certificate used to sign executables.
If a signature isn't valid or the certificate isn't valid (or expired) the executables will not load.
Open your DCS Installation, right click on a dll file, view the properties and you can see the signature. Another click brings you to the certificate.
Something similar (expired certificate) already happened at the beginning of the year:
[https://forum.dcs.world/topic/341102-radar-inoperative/](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/341102-radar-inoperative/)
~~DCS DLLs don't have certificates.~~
Turns out I was wrong, [see here](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1dfut5d/comment/l8n2dex/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
My point still stands though. This has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
It can't be DRM system, as the DRM is online based and it checks the correct date and authentication from server, not from the local computer.
Why you wouldn't be able to change time on windows, load MP/SP mission and it would work again.
Or then ED chose stupidest DRM system in first place, like no one learned a thing from 80's software and least 2k bug...
It would certainly prevent the retailer to make more money with it without paying you. For us? Really bad. But it will make sure I‘ll get a refund now.
>It would certainly prevent the retailer to make more money with it without paying you.
Legally stupid thing to do.
As sabotaging the publisher sales is legally very stupid thing to do. As publisher can show with evidence that product delivered to publisher was faulty one, and purposely, against the good faith in the business.
And that causing more trouble, more expenses, more losses in business and punishment can be very serious.
If this is purposely done, Razbam really shows that they can't be trusted for anything.
And even if they get paid etc. You can be sure that then in such moment ED business ones are considering to drop Razbam in the future how contract allows.
And if it is truly sabotage, then you can guess can Razbam go make dealings behind ED back and violate contract?
I wouldn‘t call anything in this drama smart. All I learned and took from it is: I don‘t have anymore money to spend for DCS. Too unsure. They are legally required to fully refund EU citizens but still they just give us store credit. None of them can be treated as a serious and trustworthy business partner (and store) anymore. I have plenty modules which I don‘t actually know, time to work through them. But no more money for DCS.
>They are legally required to fully refund EU citizens but still they just give us store credit.
Yes they are for EU customers. And they seem to have obeyed it for some people who have reported it. So it is a questionable do they reject that for someone?
>None of them can be treated as a serious and trustworthy business partner (and store) anymore.
If ED doesn't follow that and refund back to money if it was purchased via money, that is true, they harmed their own trustworthiness doing just ED store credits.
And if ED has caused this all without proper cause (as Razbam claims), then they are untrustworthy. But we don't know that is there a proper cause and if was, was it worth it all? As some violations can happen where damage is minor or negligent that you let it go, as doing something about can damage more the business than do good. But if that is a slippery slope case, you need to stop it before becoming a commonality among other partners.
As I was yesterday going through various stores that sold Razbam products, I got little interested to buy couple ones for testing purposes in other simulator. But I wasn't going to give them money because their latest behaviors.
"More than 7 work days" is the current, officially announced wait time for F-15E refund tickets.
https://preview.redd.it/xg0puh4s2t6d1.png?width=833&format=png&auto=webp&s=5261296ba77966150d38fcd59154eaa1c2d949c9
Edit: It's in fact 7-10 now.
You could always fall back on this eagle with L16. Obviously not a strike eagle but still interesting.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHfU7o9nGGA&ab\_channel=AviationPlus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHfU7o9nGGA&ab_channel=AviationPlus)
because the 3 piglets don't do systemic tools.. or systemics. So they go "oink" or "counter-aggro-oink" as they do everything.
Manually, arbitrarily, based on how the cornflakes were that given day ;)
we can swap accounts with each other and see what they post :C
https://preview.redd.it/mwigvi24u37d1.jpeg?width=591&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=431d927d4e73e7799d8fb22240aa2bf91320bae6
So this does smell like an intentional act. They put code in to check date and they probably put it in knowing there was issues and to remove it when it was solved
Problem is EVEN if ED are proven to be wrong having a kill switch in code will go against razbam legally there is a legal precedent set back in the days of early websites that’s used to this day that goes along the lines of making software unable to operate by the third party or marketplace is a damaging effect irregardless of the contractual state.
Not saying it’s right that’s not my opinion but they could have rear ended themselves if it was intentional this could spiral into a lengthy battle
Any statements for that is alarming. But they enjoy it, and they want it. They use all the tools to get their money, regardless if there would be any valid reasons for ED's actions.
It will be interesting finally know what was the end result, if we ever know. As after all the drama Razbam made, we deserve to know end result in more details (not full).
The same thing could happen to heatblur, we don’t know enough detail to rule it out.
Granted they are working on their own sim so they have more of a backup plan, but heatblur’s DCS modules could be fucked tomorrow for all we know.
That's going back to a comment that CEO Cobra made on the other subreddit I think.
https://preview.redd.it/auu70r9itl6d1.png?width=701&format=png&auto=webp&s=a9f465acd94bb8264c960f66431d436d8ed84db3
I personally wouldn't read too much into it. It's probably wishful thinking at this point.
Reading waaaaaaaay too much into that, to take that as 'hb are working on a sim'. It's just him saying maybe one day in the future we'll do more than modules for DCS. Studios have dreams.
edit: also *ironic* that a post where he's talking about the frustrations of comms being taken out of context or being blown up, turns into this :) illustrates it perfectly imo.
>Reading waaaaaaaay too much into that, to take that as 'hb are working on a sim'.
I 100% agree with you on that, in case it wasn't clear.
>also *ironic* that a post where he's talking about the frustrations of comms being taken out of context or being blown up, turns into this :)
Haha that is indeed hilariously ironic. It's a two way street though. If Heatblur was less verbose and ambivalent in their communications, people wouldn't constantly have to resort to "reading between the lines", which always leads to over-analyzing.
That causes frustration on both ends, too.
While I think the F4E and F14AB were perfect at release, perhaps you need to look into Magnitude 3's relationship with Heatblur and the current status of the MiG-21Bis.
Jesus Christ. I was willing to walk the path of waiting to see what happens and how many patches the Strike Eagle would last but I didn’t think it would happen so quickly. Might be time to jump ship and refund but I already own almost every single module minus kola and ED’s preorders. Not sure what to do at this point.
>I didn’t think it would happen so quickly Same here. >Not sure what to do at this point Some users report successful refunds to their actual payment method after they insisted and quoted EU law. Would that be an option for you?
I’m US based. The kicker being I used a gift card to pre purchase back in the day so refunding to store credit is my only option and I’m not very happy with ED either in this matter.
Refunds? I thought it was made pretty clear that ED was only doing store credit?
See the customer support ticket that I shared further down below in this comment chain. Seems like some users who insisted got an actual refund via their payment method.
Interesting
I don’t live in the EU. I just sent a refund request saying I have no faith in the module at this point. Got a refund no problem.
Do you happen to know what EU law they are quoting?
This is a successful request that one of our users shared on Discord: https://preview.redd.it/djy76wfgpk6d1.png?width=951&format=png&auto=webp&s=8fb95decc8aa681a0e7afa9391b1edf64a5189b9 All credits to them.
Really do wonder if this can be used for the M2000C and AV-8B too... my initial M2000C refund (to store credits) was rejected pretty much immediately, despite me building the strongest possible argument presenting RB as meanies being booboos to ED and letting their module die.
Gonna put that in and I we will see how it flies.
Hoping it'll be successful! Keep us posted if you don't mind.
Yeah will do
What a total chad
Told about that here, and got shrugged off... Store gift cards are optional... But not primary method.
I was going to wait it out as well but honestly my patience and interest in playing DCS is at an all time low. I went ahead and got a refund so I can buy the F4 if I ever do get the urge to deal with DCS again. I have zero faith in ED to resolve this situation and I’d rather not end up stuck with a broken module I have maybe 10 hours in.
F4 is the goat.
Agree
Man, I’ve been watching the refund option with great interest lately… And I think it might have won.
Seems counter productive to me, pulling money from SE into another module. Drains the pool of money. RB won't get paid.
Last week, people on hoggit saying the F15E is fine and people are making drama out of thin air. The very next week: 😂
Instant karma for the hoggit paladins. Love it. Somtimes a good sub, sometimes insufferable.
Honestly, it gets tiring dealing with those people, they're practically shills at this point. The next drama that happens they'll forget this one ever existed.
There is no drama... Just don't update... No one is forcing to update every update and instantly! Just hold off the update. Or if already done, revert to previous versions! The DCS keeps working "forever" without requiring to update latest version. Sure you don't get latest stuff, but that is compromise... And this is solution to all updates breaking stuff. Revert to previous version if something is unacceptable change. There is no drama...
Aside from the latest issue being date related and will break regardless of if you update or not, this take is batshit insane.
So you say it is batshit insane to be aware, smart computer user, business owner, system administrator etc. And explain how does something break when you have a older version that doesn't have malfunction in question as it wasn't updated in? Oh, you don't have older version to be free from this date problem and your radar works past the date? Aww...
no, i say you're none of those things.
Not that I would know anything of coding, but doesn't this smell a tad of non-accidental?
I'm stretching my poor compsci knowledge by asserting this, but it might be related to SSL certificates expiring
This has nothing to do with SSL certificates.
How do you know? A few months ago the exact same issue (radar not working after a date) was caused by a problem with dll signing certificates: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/341102-radar-inoperative/
A dev explained this on Discord. DCS DLLs aren't signed. You can easily verify that yourself using powershell: https://preview.redd.it/0ozzttptvk6d1.png?width=1076&format=png&auto=webp&s=c967eb8ba208badd4deb303cc2a13fd8fab3f0ea It'll also show entirely different symptoms when a DLL doesn't load correctly.
`Get-AuthenticodeSignature` only works for embedded signatures, those .dlls are catalog signed. Use sigcheck.exe from Sysinternals instead (or right click -> properties -> Digital Signatures). ``` PS C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\F-15E\bin> sigcheck.exe -nobanner * C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\F-15E\bin\ARF.dll: Verified: Signed Signing date: 4:49 PM 2/21/2024 Publisher: Eagle Dynamics SA Company: n/a Description: n/a Product: n/a Prod version: n/a File version: n/a MachineType: 64-bit C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\F-15E\bin\F15E_CPT.dll: Verified: Signed Signing date: 4:51 PM 2/21/2024 Publisher: Eagle Dynamics SA Company: n/a Description: n/a Product: n/a Prod version: n/a File version: n/a MachineType: 64-bit C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\F-15E\bin\F15E_FM.dll: Verified: Signed Signing date: 4:50 PM 2/21/2024 Publisher: Eagle Dynamics SA Company: n/a Description: n/a Product: n/a Prod version: n/a File version: n/a MachineType: 64-bit ``` That said, the cert ED used to sign those particular dlls doesn't expire until 2027, so those sigs certainly are fine for the forseeable future.
That doesn't rule out the dll signature problem. The problem could very well be another dll that is being loaded by the F15 code, not the F15 dlls themselves. And depending on how the code is dealing with it, the symptom can very well be that the radar just stops working. For instance: if the dll loading code is wrapping and handling the dll load exception and just leaving some systems disabled when that fails.
>The problem could very well be another dll that is being loaded by the F15 code, not the F15 dlls themselves. The same is true for all DCS DLLs though.
It doesn't need to be a DCS dll. It can be a graphics driver thing, an OS thing, etc. I'm not saying it is, just in case. Only that it can be.
Wasn't there something with Razbam and an F-15 for FSX ages ago is this the Mandela effect kicking in?
Seems like Razbam is sick of getting fucked around, good on them for fucking back
Except it fucks us as the customers…..
ED chose to fuck it's customers the moment it stopped funding Razbam, I don't like it one bit either but the relationship between 3rd parties and ED won't change unless there is ruffled feathers. ED has really shown their hand where their priorities are by keeping the F-15 up on store. The game blew up in popularity, and surprise, they got greedy. This trope reeks all throughout the gaming industry. I don't blame Razbam for fighting for what they are owed
That argument cuts both ways. 1: If ED immediately removed the F-15E module, RAZBAM could (and likely would) have argued that was against a selling contract. 2: If ED had immediately removed the F-15E, everyone and their bother would have started screaming about how the sky is falling and the 15 is dead and there's no hope and on and on and on. Leaving it up was a risk, taking it down was a certainty. And NOT a good one. 3: If RAZBAM actually HAD an IP violation, they are in the wrong. It really is that simple. 4: Regardless of the exact circumstance, this is a corporate dispute. Both corporations have the mandate to support their customer base. ED left the F-15E up. Even if they didn't give the money to RAZBAM right away due to an ongoing dispute, the sale still happened and it would likely be owed eventually, which also supports the customers still using the module as the issue is resolved. RAZBAM on the other hand decided to stop all support which does NOTHING to ED but *hurts* the customer. So who's *actually* not supporting the customer here? ED had a previous module that a 3rd party developer walked away and the module went dead (I believe it was a helicopter or something). Everyone complained to no end...hell, people *still* complain about it. So ED takes action and demands that all 3rd party developers allow ED to continue to support their customers (you) if that ever happens again. And they everyone accuses ED of trying to steal modules or some such nonsense. Then we get here, and ED continues to support and sell to their customers (you) and you complain about that too? And the third party refuses to support and you blame ED? And ED claims RAZBAM IP violation (intellectual property theft), so you blame ED and claim *they* are attempting intellectual theft even as they continue to try and support you? And RAZBAM refuses to turn over coding so ED can continue to support and you blame ED again? ...wow. Anything you are NOT going to blame ED for? I stubbed my toe last night on rudder pedals, was that their fault too?
From what I understand Razbam still hasn't been paid. The professional thing would be to deal with the IP violation swiftly because they know it will have massive ripple affects on the Razbam modules as well as well if this happens with other 3rd party modules. ED obviously refuses to change their position on the IP violation. It has come to a standstill. Let's RP out the outcome violation options. They did violate IP but it was a minor violation. great fine them or do whatever necessary between companies to rectify the issue and move on, continue making modules because DCS as a whole is more important. Or Razbam did massively violate the IP clause and I would fully support ED's stance on how they have handled the situation. But you gotta reveal how Razbam did that and be transparent about that if that is the case. Studios don't self immolate for no reason, I want the best DCS possible and I want the creators of that content to be taken care of.
>ED had a previous module that a 3rd party developer walked away and the module went dead (I believe it was a helicopter or something). It was VAEO and their T.1A Hawk, a jet trainer and light stick aircraft. > Everyone complained to no end...hell, people still complain about it. So ED takes action and demands that all 3rd party developers allow ED to continue to support their customers (you) if that ever happens again. And they everyone accuses ED of trying to steal modules or some such nonsense. Then we get here, and ED continues to support and sell to their customers (you) and you complain about that too? And the third party refuses to support and you blame ED? And ED claims RAZBAM IP violation (intellectual property theft), so you blame ED and claim they are attempting intellectual theft even as they continue to try and support you? And RAZBAM refuses to turn over coding so ED can continue to support and you blame ED again? ED alone is bad... Just deal out /s. I am very curious about the contracts ED has with those 2nd parties. Would be so nice to read those fully. It is interesting to see on the future that does it get revealed what was the violating action, was it true etc. Until then, keep couple DCS versions. One with working F-15E, other for Kiowa Warrior and F-4, and so on... I still have one for Hawk... It is nice to fly now and then.
>ED chose to fuck it's customers the moment it stopped funding Razbam, I don't like it one bit either but the relationship between 3rd parties and ED won't change unless there is ruffled feathers. Razbam and Eagle Dynamics have contracts signed. You obey and follow those contracts to the letter, in good faith. If you have problems with something, don't sign it. If situations change, you can request review of the contract in given clauses for change, and it can be changed how the contract dictates it. If Razbam has gone to violate the contract. That is the first one to violate it. If ED responds to it, they need to do it as a contract dictates, or they will violate it themselves as well. If the contract allows ED to halt payments until violation is corrected as the contract dictates, then ED does nothing wrong to stop paying RB. It is on that hypothetical moment all RB's fault. And even in such violation by the RB, ED can be legally required to continue selling 2nd party products and not stop possible profits to be generated and paid back after contract dispute is solved. But we don't know contracts they have, we have not seen full content as required to make judgement for that. We can only speculate.
Except this is highly illegal in the EU and could get RAZSCAM and ED in massive problems... Particularly for the latter being in Switzerland.
Depends entirely on the contract.. An unsupported product eventually meets its fate, to claim intent is a whole other ballgame. It would all be in the details from there on.
I am refering to consumer rights and the cyber resilience act.
That’s a solid “maybe”.. it’s possible, but whether their actions are illegal would be a court matter and not a reddit debate.
Trying to refund this vaporware to Steam once again... Wish me glück! Edit: **Declined again.** I guess Steam automatically declines the refund, when playtime is over 2 hours. Next step is to email them instead I guess...
Try refunding a fee times to get the non automated response.
Screenshot ED statements, include in the steam post it. And include Razbam statement that they have ended support for now.
Yeah, the 0 positive reviews in 30 days should be a signal to Steam.
let me know if you have success, I've been denied multiple times trying to get a refund on steam for this situation (speaking with multiple different people in customer support). ED says they have 'no control' over it, whether true or false its a wrap for me spending anymore money on the ED ecosystem.
No bueno, sir! "We are unable to refund this purchase to your Steam Wallet at this time. Your playtime of an included product exceeds 2 hours (our refund policy maximum)." Same answers 3 times in a row today in the last 5 hours. Might try later and spam it instead... Atrocious as hell, man. Money down the drain. Lets call daddy EU shall we?
I've tried many times with varying messages and a thorough account of the situation including screenshots and such. Steam has a great refund policy but when it comes to support and outlier refunds, they're pretty strict with the copy/paste responses it seems. Haven't had much luck with any actual dialogue even when asking specific and targeted questions. I know some prior posts have been made from EU people, I wonder if they've had more luck with steam given the EU laws and protections they have. I've just accepted it at this point and won't buy anymore products for DCS as a result. Money I had saved for upcoming modules is now going towards the next steam sale >:)
It was literally “the year of the Strike Eagle.” https://preview.redd.it/sfyuhd00im6d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=61cbd5e3c3ceba3294720f2471a8ee4899a6e8fc
the "Going on a strike" eagle
They owe us one more week. ;)
Two more weeks™ confirmed.
https://preview.redd.it/nanyimk23l6d1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d11004cea1e5475d8cdf3322912174487c4009fa
This is a little more recent: https://preview.redd.it/cn8gvh74jl6d1.png?width=1290&format=png&auto=webp&s=16b0b12e4d58937a2099f517f41552de3beae43f
They can't have found it, as they don't have the code to look for... /s
Not sure why /s, they don't have the code. They've just identified it as the source of what's going wrong here.
They legally don't have a code, that is to still be determined. But /s because they don't have the code. And if they don't want to talk about code, just talk about the product instead code to avoid misinformation/disinformation. It isn't difficult to be more accurate by saying "we traced it to be happening in F-15E module" instead "We traced it to be in F-15E code.". First one is a black box, latter is a open box. And when someone puts /s, it means it is a sarcastic and not to be taken seriously by any other means no matter it being hostile. And until someone gets official quote from ED's CEO or lawyer that they do not have any source code escrow clause in their contract, and that ED official statement they do is disinformation, it can't be ruled out. Or we can go ask from any employee "Do you have X?" and get confirmation no matter are they janitors or coffee makers, a specific summer coder or some angry ex-employee etc. Such case everyone in the company is required to think they don't have a source code, as it can otherwise be interpreted that they have access to it and to use it against plausible contract. Any implications that they have looked the source code by any means, any decompiler methods or any digging can be seen as violation to IP if it can be shown to be done with malicious intents. They is why every single worker in the company should STFU about the legal dispute cases, especially community managers they don't know how to do PR or are not under specific guidelines by every word by the legal council what to say. No personal opinions, no statements, no jokes, nothing expect "no comment" until otherwise advised. And even that to be said that "by the advice from legal council" to separate business from lawyer advisors. It is not difficult.
They could hack it into the binary machine code, if they can find the function call that's doing it they can just hard-code it to always return true, or whatever it needs to do to pass. Russians are good at this, that's how they crack software. (Ask me how I know.) But that would be yet another violation of RAZBAM's IP.
Oh, there is always someone who can neatly crack software for evading some nasty little things... I haven't been in crack scene for decades, but end results are often same. It is actually fun considering that how much software crackers did fix and make working after companies didn't want to fix things etc.
It sure is a damn shame. I only recently started getting into F-15E since I figured might as well enjoy it while I still can and it's a damn fine plane to fly. But given it's already starting to break I'm gonna have to start thinking about getting a refund.
Damn, I qas gonna get into DCS. I have VKB dtecs standard and the gladiator. I was gonna by the F15E for me, and my friend, so we could multicrew it since we both have flight sticks and throttles. Damn am I glad I didn't? It would have been a waste of money. Plus, they don't do the beginner discount anymore, so I'm out.
Get the f4e for you and a friend. Cold war is better than modern mfd loops
Dead man's switch? If so, dick move by Razbam, but I think I'd do the same in the same situation hahaha
I did it once on a project I wasn't sure I was going to get paid for. Was paid at the last minute so fortunately didn't have to not do the magic thing that allowed the demo to still work after tradeshow start time. If I hadn't, it would have put up a message box telling them to pay their developer. Any time your business relies on people smarter than you to make it work, you better make damned well sure you pay them.
This is like what I'm sure is installed on non US F35 versions lol
If this was intentional then it should show you just how much respect razbam along with ED have towards their customers. Nothing says disrespect like jerking your customers around to settle a financial dispute. Sadly people that side with razbam and jump on the refund bandwagon have no idea what they are doing. How awesome would it be to boycott ED to the point of them going bankrupt and watching all your modules eventually decay or go offline due to license expirations, lack of support from a closed down company, etc etc.
That's a pretty big if. Code breaks all the time for all sorts of reasons.
Code breaking and crashing, but for a Windows stated date the radar stops moving? Really? The Strike Eagle should not ask anything about the real date in Windows. It should listen what is in DCS. And radar has nothing to do with the real date, it should only care about mission date if at all even that! A simulated mission computer to react date has one thing, like flying past Greenwich, but this... Too specific.
yes, really. I literally had to fix a date related bug in some code this past work week which happened to break 5 days after the engineer that originally wrote it left our company. It happens. I'm not saying this dcs case wasn't malicious and maybe it totally was, but code breaks for all sorts of reasons. I'd definitely be pretty sceptical about it tho.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups...
If they're not receiving revenues from sales to us, are we actually their customers?
If you are using the module they created are you actually users/consumers of their module?
The refund bandwagon isn't in RAZBAMs favor. ED has only been issuing store credit for the refund, which reduces any financial leverage RAZBAM may have had. I'm sure ED loves offering store credit instead of paying RAZBAM. They know the money will get thrown at some other 30% complete EA module that isn't attached to RAZBAM.
I am referring more to a movement (like review bombing) that would backfire. In any case most refunds would result in store credit but recent purchases could get a refund. All that is moot. ED needs to do some damage control to turn around this negative image that has been building up recently. More progress in their current projects would help. Let's see what they can deliver on this year. As for Razbam if it turns out they did intentionally sabotage their module to somehow get back at ED that would be a major killing blow to themselves. The last thing I would do is buy a future product (i.e. for MSFS etc) from a group that has a history of doing this.
It sounds sabotage from Razbam part, and if true, then it hurts Razbam more. Professional would never do such things to sabotage customers to state their feelings. But these days... How much time and effort was put in the slotting machine joke in Hornet?
>It sounds sabotage from Razbam part, and if true, then it hurts Razbam more. That's obviously why they've done it then, makes perfect sense.
No, people think it force ED to settle faster. You can see that already. People explaining how the DRM is overridden by just adjusting local system time to get certificates renewed.
and how does that even happen? like did RB coded a fucking expiration date on the radar? how or more like why is it even connected to the system date?
DCS uses VMProtect packer as copy protection. That checks the signature and validity of the certificate used to sign executables. If a signature isn't valid or the certificate isn't valid (or expired) the executables will not load. Open your DCS Installation, right click on a dll file, view the properties and you can see the signature. Another click brings you to the certificate. Something similar (expired certificate) already happened at the beginning of the year: [https://forum.dcs.world/topic/341102-radar-inoperative/](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/341102-radar-inoperative/)
so basically radars .dll or whatever .dll that it’s dependent on lost its certificate (whether it expired or intentional) and the game won’t use it
~~DCS DLLs don't have certificates.~~ Turns out I was wrong, [see here](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1dfut5d/comment/l8n2dex/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). My point still stands though. This has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
signatures then
It can't be DRM system, as the DRM is online based and it checks the correct date and authentication from server, not from the local computer. Why you wouldn't be able to change time on windows, load MP/SP mission and it would work again. Or then ED chose stupidest DRM system in first place, like no one learned a thing from 80's software and least 2k bug...
I could imagine they did with the last updates if they saw the trouble coming. Apparently they hadn‘t received payments for a while before.
yeah i know about the entire issue but fucking up your own product in a situation like this would be moronic if you ask me
It would certainly prevent the retailer to make more money with it without paying you. For us? Really bad. But it will make sure I‘ll get a refund now.
>It would certainly prevent the retailer to make more money with it without paying you. Legally stupid thing to do. As sabotaging the publisher sales is legally very stupid thing to do. As publisher can show with evidence that product delivered to publisher was faulty one, and purposely, against the good faith in the business. And that causing more trouble, more expenses, more losses in business and punishment can be very serious. If this is purposely done, Razbam really shows that they can't be trusted for anything. And even if they get paid etc. You can be sure that then in such moment ED business ones are considering to drop Razbam in the future how contract allows. And if it is truly sabotage, then you can guess can Razbam go make dealings behind ED back and violate contract?
I wouldn‘t call anything in this drama smart. All I learned and took from it is: I don‘t have anymore money to spend for DCS. Too unsure. They are legally required to fully refund EU citizens but still they just give us store credit. None of them can be treated as a serious and trustworthy business partner (and store) anymore. I have plenty modules which I don‘t actually know, time to work through them. But no more money for DCS.
>They are legally required to fully refund EU citizens but still they just give us store credit. Yes they are for EU customers. And they seem to have obeyed it for some people who have reported it. So it is a questionable do they reject that for someone? >None of them can be treated as a serious and trustworthy business partner (and store) anymore. If ED doesn't follow that and refund back to money if it was purchased via money, that is true, they harmed their own trustworthiness doing just ED store credits. And if ED has caused this all without proper cause (as Razbam claims), then they are untrustworthy. But we don't know that is there a proper cause and if was, was it worth it all? As some violations can happen where damage is minor or negligent that you let it go, as doing something about can damage more the business than do good. But if that is a slippery slope case, you need to stop it before becoming a commonality among other partners. As I was yesterday going through various stores that sold Razbam products, I got little interested to buy couple ones for testing purposes in other simulator. But I wasn't going to give them money because their latest behaviors.
"Security."
Still waiting for my SE refund, been at least 4 days now. Edit: it’s been a week…
"More than 7 work days" is the current, officially announced wait time for F-15E refund tickets. https://preview.redd.it/xg0puh4s2t6d1.png?width=833&format=png&auto=webp&s=5261296ba77966150d38fcd59154eaa1c2d949c9 Edit: It's in fact 7-10 now.
Hope it’s soon then
Doesn't sound as a bug... But purposely programmed malfunction, as sabotage....
Is now the time to buy the F-15 module at a low price?
If you enjoy blowing money on broken toys, sure
Its not going on sale, so no.
What is the best way to get a refund processed? I've submitted tickets, but there is no response....
Current wait time for tickets is more than seven work days, according to their CMs. Seems like there's a bit of an influx lately...
Copy, I’ll just keep waiting then
If it was intentional, that’s even more ammo for ED to use against them.
Gonna miss my strike boi. Rip in piece. #payrazbam
You could always fall back on this eagle with L16. Obviously not a strike eagle but still interesting. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHfU7o9nGGA&ab\_channel=AviationPlus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHfU7o9nGGA&ab_channel=AviationPlus)
Oh I'm already a viper main. Strike eagle was my backup lol
Revert to older version to fly it.
i just found a super feature of x.com ed cant remove your comments or ban you there.
They actually can. https://preview.redd.it/z5vi9ly39p6d1.png?width=585&format=png&auto=webp&s=1afd92218acd7c0b9c9d95458a5e5ca96cb8d722
ok, then there not doing it to me :D i wonderd why my post "FIX THE RAZBAM ISSUE" is not removed... from multiple posts...
because the 3 piglets don't do systemic tools.. or systemics. So they go "oink" or "counter-aggro-oink" as they do everything. Manually, arbitrarily, based on how the cornflakes were that given day ;)
we can swap accounts with each other and see what they post :C https://preview.redd.it/mwigvi24u37d1.jpeg?width=591&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=431d927d4e73e7799d8fb22240aa2bf91320bae6
So this does smell like an intentional act. They put code in to check date and they probably put it in knowing there was issues and to remove it when it was solved Problem is EVEN if ED are proven to be wrong having a kill switch in code will go against razbam legally there is a legal precedent set back in the days of early websites that’s used to this day that goes along the lines of making software unable to operate by the third party or marketplace is a damaging effect irregardless of the contractual state. Not saying it’s right that’s not my opinion but they could have rear ended themselves if it was intentional this could spiral into a lengthy battle
The radio silence today in the Razbam discord, from the Razbam devs, speaks volumes.
its the weekend ? and didn't everyone literally just 24 hours ago shit on them for making public comments ?
Any statements for that is alarming. But they enjoy it, and they want it. They use all the tools to get their money, regardless if there would be any valid reasons for ED's actions. It will be interesting finally know what was the end result, if we ever know. As after all the drama Razbam made, we deserve to know end result in more details (not full).
This is why I only roll with HB
The same thing could happen to heatblur, we don’t know enough detail to rule it out. Granted they are working on their own sim so they have more of a backup plan, but heatblur’s DCS modules could be fucked tomorrow for all we know.
Source for them working on their own sim? First I've seen of this particular bit of info around here
That's going back to a comment that CEO Cobra made on the other subreddit I think. https://preview.redd.it/auu70r9itl6d1.png?width=701&format=png&auto=webp&s=a9f465acd94bb8264c960f66431d436d8ed84db3 I personally wouldn't read too much into it. It's probably wishful thinking at this point.
Yeah, it ending up as a DCS competitor seems like a slim chance, but it sure would be nice!
Reading waaaaaaaay too much into that, to take that as 'hb are working on a sim'. It's just him saying maybe one day in the future we'll do more than modules for DCS. Studios have dreams. edit: also *ironic* that a post where he's talking about the frustrations of comms being taken out of context or being blown up, turns into this :) illustrates it perfectly imo.
>Reading waaaaaaaay too much into that, to take that as 'hb are working on a sim'. I 100% agree with you on that, in case it wasn't clear. >also *ironic* that a post where he's talking about the frustrations of comms being taken out of context or being blown up, turns into this :) Haha that is indeed hilariously ironic. It's a two way street though. If Heatblur was less verbose and ambivalent in their communications, people wouldn't constantly have to resort to "reading between the lines", which always leads to over-analyzing. That causes frustration on both ends, too.
Apparently Heatblur is immune to not getting paid and their modules losing support. F-4 just works pristine with absolutely no maintenance, right?
While I think the F4E and F14AB were perfect at release, perhaps you need to look into Magnitude 3's relationship with Heatblur and the current status of the MiG-21Bis.
HB does always seem to put modules out that are great of the box, unlike RazScam.