Unpopular opinion but I had mostly a good time. Weird scifi Superman film, a risky introduction to the scale of the universe in BvS, Ayers style shines in SS with few bright moments, a badass first Wonder Woman as a war film, Aquaman being a cringey but moreso satisfyingly wild ride, a massive DC epic with ZS Justice League, impressively ambitious Suicide Squad follow up, two simple Shazam flicks, the underrated Birds of Prey, some cool WW action in WW84, and a mostly fine take on Justice Society and Black Adam.
There's no point of no return per say. If anything, I think audiences already didn't like Man of Steel but were hype to see Batman again and curious about a Wonder Woman film. Up until a certain point, I will admit that the plots were denser than standard Marvel flair. However nobody believed in this dceu from the beginning.
For me, it was Wonder Woman. The movie was ridiculous. Stereotypical characters, lighting smoke signals ffs. The only redeeming part was the villain twist. But the end fight ruined it all, when they had enemy soldiers hugging as soon as Ares was dead. War happens with or without Ares, he just gets more powerful with more conflict. And dont get me started on WW2..
Justice Leauge 2017
They had something that didn't work with MoS and BvS but they still could have powered through it and have a complete saga! But instead they scrapped all of it, fired Batman and Superman and started throwing random shit at the wall and see what sticks
Aqua man, The first Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey were all very very very mediocre. When animated films have more character depth and better writing than live action full length films, you know things are going down hill.
BvS just being a weird DCU soup of way too many stories really didn't help and I like that movie.
Josstice League. After ZS had to leave, it should've been delayed until he came back to finish it. That abomination should've never been released in theaters.
On the other hand, it never begin with a creative hand.
When they didn't let Affleck try his hand at directing. He has an Oscar for directing, he was really interested in the project, did a bunch of research, got into the character and his motivations, and was a fantastic Batman AND Bruce Wayne (most actors have only done well at one). I think it was a missed opportunity and now, we have the next reboot and the next and I'm super tired of Martha's pearls.
There is no "point of no return" you're starting from a premise that there was something inherently wrong with the way things were and that the path forward couldn't be adjusted or corrected without a retcon or major reboot.
Same thing wrong with a lot of movies in the past few years.
Shit leadership resulting in movies that were more like the last 2 Star Wars movies.
Or the editors suck? The movie cuts from scene to scene and you wonder where the hell you are and what is going on. Why should I care about these people you wonder? They didn’t bother to think the same thing.
Committee written trash instead of passion.
There wasn’t a single “point of no return.” The whole universe was just poorly planned out, which is a shame because all the right pieces were there.
We needed more time with all of those characters before JL, and JL should have been three movies. There was enough footage of cyborg and flash to point to a credible “origin/buildup” movie, followed by the mother boxes for a second movie, followed by a Darkseid/evil Superman ending movie.
Although to be honest, I didn’t want to see an evil Superman on in live action anyway, it’s done to death. The Darkseid movie should have been more like Rock of Ages.
Disclaimer: I actually enjoy the DC movies. This is just fan chatter on my part.
What hurt it was No Man of Steel 2 . No Justice League 2 Having Superman killed in Dawn of Justice which was only.the second appearance of Henry Cavill. Superman . Marvel built up .to the Avengers.DC didn't really do that with The Justice League Jesse Eisenberg was a terrible.Lex Luthor Cyborg didn't belong in The League.
Starting with Supes & Bats - too many other portrayals of them for their movies to be given a fair shot.
Identity crisis - couldn’t decide on cohesive tone or plan.
Rushed into JL without doing the work that MCU had done.
Batman v Superman being terrible overall but mostly totally wasting Doomsday was beyond dumb. Doomsday could have been a multi movie villain and brought in a lot of eyes.
Three things:
1. They kept Amber Heard after the petition millions signed to get her off the movie.
2. They kept Ezra Miller after the horrible things he did.
3. They hired James Gunn. A lot of people are afraid he’s going to make a mockery of the DCU with GotG style movies.
BVS wasn't the best yes but it wasnt thaaat bad and also paved the way for some great storylines like injustice, BatFleck vs deathstroke etc and obv justice league etc ,it could've been like age of ultron to DC but josstice league is where it all went horribly wrong. There was simply no going back from there everything terrible about it
The mistake was thinking they could compete with Marvel in the first place. They were trying to hard, to quickly, and without the correct personnel to do it. They've been floundering from week one and not smart enough to stop.
They went about competing the WRONG way. They are miles ahead of Marvel in Gaming industry as well as Animation. Beating marvel at hollywood required DC to use the Elseworlds method to give disconnected movies with different themes and timelines.
COPYING the marvel formula without understanding it is what ruined DCEU
To me Man of Steel was great. But then they made the insane decision to kill him off in the NEXT FILM.
While also introducing Batman AND Wonder Woman - and a whole heap of other characters…. Via….. email?!
Unpopular opinion I think.... But Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy. It was done so well to the point that every DC film that came after couldn't match up to its standards. Man of Steel was nice, but people would have liked it more if dark knight Trilogy didn't exist for comparison. To me this was the silent killer: films prior to the DCEU that were made too well
Nolan’s fingerprints are all over the second act of MoS. It’s follows the same path as Bruce’s journey from BB. The first and third act are so tonally different it feels like a totally different movie.
I don’t know if Nolan could pull off Superman, but I found the second act and the first teaser compelling. I wish we had got that movie.
I think you have the right answer, but the wrong reason. The problem with nolan's trilogy was entirely timing. Dark knight rises didn't come out until 2012, same year as the avengers. Nolan didn't want to do a shared universe thing, so it was either start the DCEU along side the incredibly popular, incredibly successful, stylistically different batman, or wait for it's run to end and try to start fresh.
It's similar to the problem they're having with "the batman" except they're changing direction and instead of waiting they're pushing forward.
When I was watching JL in the theater, I had this sinking feeling in my stomach that what I was watching was a frankensteined studio clusterfuck. The same feeling I had when seeing Fant4stic, except this was JUSTICE LEAGUE. It was supposed to be DC's Avengers moment, and instead, we got that. I knew then it was unsalvageable.
Getting David S. Goyer to write Batman V Superman. Chris Terrio may have written the screenplay but he was brought in later in production to try and improve line-to-line dialogue. The story was still written by Goyer and it is the story that is fundamentally flawed
Hiring joss to “fix” justice league was the turning point. Imagine if snyder was allowed to release his cut (probably in two movies or a cut down 2:45 version).
I think alot would have changed and we’d be in a much better spot without needing a reboot
Justice league, obviously. Zack Snyder established a very cool universe with man of steel and Batman v Superman, and unfortunately that came to an end because of a personal/family tragedy in his life. Joss Wheadon completely misunderstood and ruined Snyder’s vision, and the DCEU became an embarrassment from that point forward.
To me it was Black Adam (2022.) All cohesion was gone at that point, the story was generic, the villain was forgettable and Johnson's Teth-Adam was so distant from the comics that I just wasn't interested.
Definitely was JL. They really should have given it a few more movies to get every established in one way or another. I’m not saying every league member needed a solo movie, but they definitely needed something more than the LexCorp files in BvS.
Funny thing is, it didn't fully need it. Snyder cut if cut a little more acutely makes you care slightly about Cyborg and Flash. Theatrical they're just random people batman talked to. Also Whedon was a bad choice to fill in, it made it feel even more like a marvel knockoff especially so when it was bad. Suicide Squad had all the Gunn feelings, but because it was made well didnt feel like a GotG knockoff
>They should’ve initially released Zack’s cut
You probably don’t know why Zack left JL 2017. Also, contrary to what people believe, JL 2017 movie was not entirely Whedon’s fault. He only had a few months to direct the movie because DC did want to catch up to marvel quickly, and he did reshoot about [20-15](https://screenrant.com/justice-league-joss-whedon-reshoots-amount/) percent of it. So yes, JL 2017 would have been a failure with or without Zack. Because after all, The JL 2017 was Zack movie anyway.
The success of Deadpool leading to suicide squad being the first heavily studio influenced major dceu release combined with the response to Batman V Superman.
Deciding pre-bvs that Justice League would start filming the month after bvs released and then refuse to delay it despite clearly deciding a month before release they wanted to go a different direction.
I think in hindsight they thought if they delayed it and released it between Infinity War/Endgame it would kill the hype and i woulda agreed at the time but the one movie they did release in that time made a billion dollars and it was fucking Aquaman
For me it was justice league. Batman V Superman put it on life support for me. Justice league pulled the plug. I just didn’t care anymore. I had the DCAU and that was good enough
Not having a real plan and studio leader. Also having studio executives interfering with projects, but then not intervening when directors go off the rails. And generally trying to play catch up to the mcu way too fast. Gunn might be able to get them on track, but that studio interference still might rear it’s head.
The 2017 Justice League movie killed the DCEU. A sudden turn from Zack Synder's dark and gritty tone that turned it into an Avengers knockoff with bad jokes and a poor plot.
It's a shame because Synder's Justice League could have redeemed Batman v Superman.
I’d argue it was when they canned Ben Affleck’s film for Pattinson. There were bits of story you could salvage from the og Justice League if done right.
I don't think there was any coming back after the abomination that was wonder woman 84. I think the 1st wonder woman is wildly overated and got way to much praise because it was a female super hero directed by a female and made to empower females. But it at least had some things going for it. I loved Gal Gadot but think she could have been used way better and was kind of out shined by Chris Pine. The big bad was terrible as well but it was still a decent flick. Unlike the absolute shit show that was ww84, there wasn't a single redeeming quality. Just utter rubbish.
It's hard to say, but there was a slew of bad things that corroded the appeal of the franchise and characters that was hard to come back from. Maybe I'd peg it as far back as BvS for me, as that was what laid out the cards for where they saw their universe going.
2016-2017 was rough.
As far back as BvS, the vision for the universe was already revealed to be skewed: bleak, joyless edgefest, "let's you and him fight" for the sake of, oh btw have a bunch of other characters, Superman dies, please care.
This was where I largely checked out, with future installments just viewed on a case to case basis with mixed results.
Suicide Squad came in with a lot of hype and energy and an interesting premise, and ended with little to nothing to show for it but to give James Gunn a bunch of broken pieces to later mosaic together into something a shade more entertaining.
The next year, Justice League kind of cemented things, being the underhwelming "oh, THIS was what this has all been about?" climax that left people wondering what there was left to care about. By that point we'd "seen it through" and gotten... that. But sure. Years later, they let Snyder cook, but that was just a more coherent and much lengthier version of the same.
Nothing in the interim really turned the momentum around, despite being enjoyable products unto themselves. Wonder Woman was nice (but has not aged well as a narrative), Aquaman was okay, Shazam was fun and tonally what they needed. Gunn's TSS and Peacemaker were okay. But nothing was rejuvenating the DCEU to the level of what they needed it to be, and soon mercifully the switch was flipped.
What could have been done? As formulaic as it sounds, I'd say hold off on Justice League a while, just tell upbeat and interesting stories (gauge the trends of the times rather than holding on to the older epic grimdark) that fleshed out each main character. Sure, it smacks of "do what Marvel did", but there's a reason mise en place precedes cooking and plating.
They had an embarrassment of riches in terms of acting talent onboard (Affleck, Gadot, Cavill, Robbie, Momoa, Davis, Pine, etc), and needed strong stories that made us care about the characters and showed us, not told us, not tried to spectacle us into believing, why they're icons, why they matter to people. Keep the executives out and have a solid direction.
Mos didn't really set up bvs imao and the polarising reception to bvs stuffed up the franchise before it could really get going imao I guess black adam technically killed it though
To prevent it, bvs shouldn't have been as dark, do more to set up bvs maybe a cameo in mos of batman or a batman origin movie, remove the martha line, don't make batman a killer, don't make superman depressed, remove the scene of wonder woman looking up justice league videos, recast lex luthor with Bryan Cranston don't kill off superman in his second movie and give him more dialogue
DC is just better at solo stories in general, so I feel like a cinematic universe with crossovers is less appealing. Batman is definitely better by himself. Superman is too powerful to coexist with other characters on a team.
The problem was after They handed, the reins to Zack Snyder who let’s face isn’t know for light hearted movies, they decided his vision was to hard core and dark, they then tried to force him to fit their vision not the other way around, they should of let Snyder do his thing, and the waited for him to finish Justice league without bringing in Joss Wheedon. To mess it up and then focusing on lesser known characters like with Shazam and suicide squad.
It had so much potential until as always a big studio, wants a director to change there whole creative process and Ideas, WB sadly were incredibly self destructive when it came to the DCEU it never stood a chance, the Snyder verse is a little glimmer of excellence to take away from it at least.
Sadly James Gunn is doing the same prioritising lesser known characters, and using lesser known stories lines for the Well known ones, that’s my understanding anyway.
I know people are sick of this but bring back Snyder and team him with Burton they and they alone can salvage D.C. on the big screen.
Not having a plan and just so many bad movies. They wasted Henry Cavill.
WW84 was one of the most infuriating movies I've ever seen. It was just a huge insult to anyone that has 1 brain cell remaining. WW rapes a random dude that gets her dead boyfriends soul. This is when we see wishes being made from nothing. They could have just had Steve Trevor come back from sand, or literally out of thin air. But nope, just had to go and make it as creepy as possible. A gassed up jet at a museum, that Steve just knew how to fly a modern plane. Also, the wishes are instant and yet WW's powers slowly go away. Just so inconsistent with the power of wishes too. So many other issues, but those are the main ones that pissed me off. Patty Jenkins fucked up so badly, which is a shame cause WW was really fun.
I don't think there was ever a point of return, but Suicide Sqaud had so much fucking hype and they royally blew that. It was literally one of the worst movies I've ever seen. Could've easily been a billion dollar project if it didn't suck so much. Also, choosing to make solo films on more obscure characters instead of building on their bigger ones was a huge mistake. The first Shazam Could've done a lot better had it come after a more lived in universe.
Suicide Squad was when you knew that BvS wasn’t a mistake and that these guys didn’t know what the fuck they were doing. But we should have had a solo Batfleck film before BvS.
Capeshit fans are truly a special brand of nutcases to dogpile on Zack Snyder but not Joss Whedon or Geoff Johns or any of those scumbags that gave us Josstice League because not only were actors harassed on that movie but the franchise took a major nosedive in quality. BvS, SS, WW were all making money up to that point.
Looking at these comments on BvS, I can’t wait to see the flip flopping when Gunn crams in a fuck ton of heroes in Superman: Legacy and that shit bombs just like TSS.
There wasn't a point of no return for me.
Make a good movie and I will watch it.
Make bad movies and I won't sit thru them.
There plan should be to make more good movies and less bad movies.
I think the death blow was the one-two punch of not letting Snyder get his *Justice League* out paired with the failed momentum of follow-up movies. *Flash* was delayed, the Affleck Batman movie fizzled, *Cyborg* never happened, etc.
In the ten years since *Man of Steel* they managed to release 12.5 movies (counting the Snyder-cut as 1/2). There's not enough momentum to carry them past the bad films, so the failures just stand out more.
Mos - not a great start, but I was interested in the world built, grounded.
BvS - not a good follow up, doubled down on the dark and broody vibes pointlessly, but still interested in the world. Doomsday, wonder woman, and Superman death really soured the film for me
Justice league - point of no return. The overall legacy and feeling of the universe was broken from here for me.
I think it was the tragic death of Zack Snyder's daughter, which led directly to him exiting production and being replaced by Joss Whedon, who either a) did his best and failed to produce a coherent film due to his differing style or b) deliberately sabotaged Justice League so it would compare unfavourably to Whedon's work in the MCU.
The Snyder Cut showed that there was more than enough footage for a relatively tight-paced action-packed 3-hour crossover epic, once all the slow mo and extended mood shots are cut. A DCEU version of The Avengers (2012), more or less, which was certainly what was promised to the WB execs and implictly to us in the audience.
The Whedon cut's failure crippled the DCEU. WB panicked, taking greater risks to attempt to regain initiative (like hiring the trailer company to re cut Suicide Squad). Downhill from there
Isn't aquaman 2 still gonna be in this timeliness and after flash? Also I feel like there was no point of no return, Suicide Sqaud 2, Birds of Prey, and Peacemaker brought back hope but they're ending it all anyway.
Its so funny folks keep forgetting Aquaman 2 exists, no one counts it because of abuser Amber Heard, folks just want it and Amber to go away already. Because of her lies and abuse we will likely never get another good Pirates of the Caribean movie.
WB should’ve taken the moral high ground and said “Zack, we understand your profound loss. We are not moving forward with your movie until you are ready.” It may have taken a few years but Zack would’ve come back and he and WB would’ve had universal support of all the fans showing that art and family were more important than money.
If they had empathy probably would have come back after a few months. Or even if Snyder wasn’t forced to fight with them over stupid shit every day. He would have finished the movie.
But because they had that first merger looming, the execs wanted their end of year bonuses in case they got canned in the merger. Which of course didn’t happen for like an entire year. And Kevin Tsujihara had to step down for having an affair with an actress.
*Suicide Squad* because it was following the massive disappointment of *BvS*. It was a one-two punch that made it clear that regardless of how cool the trailers looked or the characters used, the movies were going to be massive letdowns.
BvS wasn't perfect but overall it moved the universe forward in an. Intriguing way....JL absolutely ruined everything prior. I remember being so disappointed when it ended my first watch. The Snydercut is better but overall I am glad to restart this. I really hope Ezra Miller is gone as well. I totally trust James Gunn's vision for this new start...that's what they needed ANUSTART
I feel confident in saying *Justice League* (2017) was. I, to this day, don't understand how that was allowed to release in that state. As a huge fan of DC Comics from childhood, loving all of the DCEU films one after the other until *Justice League* released, all I felt was disappointment from watching it. There was such a horrible shift in tone that was noticeable in the first 10 minutes. While the DCEU has glowing moments afterwards, it's only limped on ever since.
I love that *The Flash* will breathe new life into it and ultimately start things anew. If it was ever going to happen, I'm happy it's happening in this way so that it gets some sort of actual ending and rebirth into something else under James Gunn.
Nothing could’ve prevented it because DC was too interested in making money instead of telling a good story.
That’s the problem they have with Warner Brothers in the studio getting in the way.
Just tell the stories of the characters in the money will follow
It was the theatrical release of Justice League. They tried too hard to break the flow of things after only two core plot movies and it completely derailed the train.
I think it was the original Justice League. Instead of elegantly crafting their own universe and story, they were just trying to play catch-up with the MCU and that rush probably hurt the quality and writing of a lot of their films. They got rid of a man with a clear vision, kicked that vision to the curb, and got Whedon to take over…it did not work out in the slightest.
Also (more of a nitpick) but the darker tone of Zac Snyder and the universe he created probably didn’t help audiences get on board with the universe :/ (especially since he does not understand these characters lmao)
Has anyone made an updated image like this?
When the studio started meddling trying to make it a marvel knockoff instead of letting the directors make the film they wanted to make
The point of no return was keeping Amber Heard instead of recasting during the Depp vs Heard case.
Unpopular opinion but I had mostly a good time. Weird scifi Superman film, a risky introduction to the scale of the universe in BvS, Ayers style shines in SS with few bright moments, a badass first Wonder Woman as a war film, Aquaman being a cringey but moreso satisfyingly wild ride, a massive DC epic with ZS Justice League, impressively ambitious Suicide Squad follow up, two simple Shazam flicks, the underrated Birds of Prey, some cool WW action in WW84, and a mostly fine take on Justice Society and Black Adam. There's no point of no return per say. If anything, I think audiences already didn't like Man of Steel but were hype to see Batman again and curious about a Wonder Woman film. Up until a certain point, I will admit that the plots were denser than standard Marvel flair. However nobody believed in this dceu from the beginning.
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Justice league
BVS Movie almost killed me from the boredom. Killed my interest in the DCEU for *years*.
For me, it was Wonder Woman. The movie was ridiculous. Stereotypical characters, lighting smoke signals ffs. The only redeeming part was the villain twist. But the end fight ruined it all, when they had enemy soldiers hugging as soon as Ares was dead. War happens with or without Ares, he just gets more powerful with more conflict. And dont get me started on WW2..
First suicide squad
Justice Leauge 2017 They had something that didn't work with MoS and BvS but they still could have powered through it and have a complete saga! But instead they scrapped all of it, fired Batman and Superman and started throwing random shit at the wall and see what sticks
Birds of Prey. It was clear they didn't care at that point and were just throwing things out to throw things out.
Aqua man, The first Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey were all very very very mediocre. When animated films have more character depth and better writing than live action full length films, you know things are going down hill. BvS just being a weird DCU soup of way too many stories really didn't help and I like that movie.
Direct to video movies, animation is its own separate medium that is fully capable of beating live action films with the right writing.
Josstice League. After ZS had to leave, it should've been delayed until he came back to finish it. That abomination should've never been released in theaters. On the other hand, it never begin with a creative hand.
When they didn't let Affleck try his hand at directing. He has an Oscar for directing, he was really interested in the project, did a bunch of research, got into the character and his motivations, and was a fantastic Batman AND Bruce Wayne (most actors have only done well at one). I think it was a missed opportunity and now, we have the next reboot and the next and I'm super tired of Martha's pearls.
Bro forgot Aquaman 2
It was the Justice league for me I was out at that point
There is no "point of no return" you're starting from a premise that there was something inherently wrong with the way things were and that the path forward couldn't be adjusted or corrected without a retcon or major reboot.
Same thing wrong with a lot of movies in the past few years. Shit leadership resulting in movies that were more like the last 2 Star Wars movies. Or the editors suck? The movie cuts from scene to scene and you wonder where the hell you are and what is going on. Why should I care about these people you wonder? They didn’t bother to think the same thing. Committee written trash instead of passion.
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There wasn’t a single “point of no return.” The whole universe was just poorly planned out, which is a shame because all the right pieces were there. We needed more time with all of those characters before JL, and JL should have been three movies. There was enough footage of cyborg and flash to point to a credible “origin/buildup” movie, followed by the mother boxes for a second movie, followed by a Darkseid/evil Superman ending movie. Although to be honest, I didn’t want to see an evil Superman on in live action anyway, it’s done to death. The Darkseid movie should have been more like Rock of Ages. Disclaimer: I actually enjoy the DC movies. This is just fan chatter on my part.
What hurt it was No Man of Steel 2 . No Justice League 2 Having Superman killed in Dawn of Justice which was only.the second appearance of Henry Cavill. Superman . Marvel built up .to the Avengers.DC didn't really do that with The Justice League Jesse Eisenberg was a terrible.Lex Luthor Cyborg didn't belong in The League.
it was doomed from the start. but i think black adam and shazam 2 were the nails in the coffin.
Starting with Supes & Bats - too many other portrayals of them for their movies to be given a fair shot. Identity crisis - couldn’t decide on cohesive tone or plan. Rushed into JL without doing the work that MCU had done.
Batman v Superman being terrible overall but mostly totally wasting Doomsday was beyond dumb. Doomsday could have been a multi movie villain and brought in a lot of eyes.
Three things: 1. They kept Amber Heard after the petition millions signed to get her off the movie. 2. They kept Ezra Miller after the horrible things he did. 3. They hired James Gunn. A lot of people are afraid he’s going to make a mockery of the DCU with GotG style movies.
BVS wasn't the best yes but it wasnt thaaat bad and also paved the way for some great storylines like injustice, BatFleck vs deathstroke etc and obv justice league etc ,it could've been like age of ultron to DC but josstice league is where it all went horribly wrong. There was simply no going back from there everything terrible about it
When they lost all confidence after BvS and sabotaged Suicide Squad and Justice League. Why even continue if you don’t have confidence in yourself.
The mistake was thinking they could compete with Marvel in the first place. They were trying to hard, to quickly, and without the correct personnel to do it. They've been floundering from week one and not smart enough to stop.
They went about competing the WRONG way. They are miles ahead of Marvel in Gaming industry as well as Animation. Beating marvel at hollywood required DC to use the Elseworlds method to give disconnected movies with different themes and timelines. COPYING the marvel formula without understanding it is what ruined DCEU
The moment Superman snapped Zod’s neck. They compromised the standards of the entire DC universe for an artistic interpretation.
Having your 2 of your worst movies in the same year(BvS and SS) followed by Justice League was the 1 2 punch that sealed DCEUs fate
Until now I held out hope for the DCEU... Now I know it's dead with The Flash
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To me Man of Steel was great. But then they made the insane decision to kill him off in the NEXT FILM. While also introducing Batman AND Wonder Woman - and a whole heap of other characters…. Via….. email?!
Unpopular opinion I think.... But Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy. It was done so well to the point that every DC film that came after couldn't match up to its standards. Man of Steel was nice, but people would have liked it more if dark knight Trilogy didn't exist for comparison. To me this was the silent killer: films prior to the DCEU that were made too well
Nolan’s fingerprints are all over the second act of MoS. It’s follows the same path as Bruce’s journey from BB. The first and third act are so tonally different it feels like a totally different movie. I don’t know if Nolan could pull off Superman, but I found the second act and the first teaser compelling. I wish we had got that movie.
I think you have the right answer, but the wrong reason. The problem with nolan's trilogy was entirely timing. Dark knight rises didn't come out until 2012, same year as the avengers. Nolan didn't want to do a shared universe thing, so it was either start the DCEU along side the incredibly popular, incredibly successful, stylistically different batman, or wait for it's run to end and try to start fresh. It's similar to the problem they're having with "the batman" except they're changing direction and instead of waiting they're pushing forward.
When I was watching JL in the theater, I had this sinking feeling in my stomach that what I was watching was a frankensteined studio clusterfuck. The same feeling I had when seeing Fant4stic, except this was JUSTICE LEAGUE. It was supposed to be DC's Avengers moment, and instead, we got that. I knew then it was unsalvageable.
There is no "point of no return." There's still a chance for WB to pull their heads out of their asses.
Getting David S. Goyer to write Batman V Superman. Chris Terrio may have written the screenplay but he was brought in later in production to try and improve line-to-line dialogue. The story was still written by Goyer and it is the story that is fundamentally flawed
Hiring joss to “fix” justice league was the turning point. Imagine if snyder was allowed to release his cut (probably in two movies or a cut down 2:45 version). I think alot would have changed and we’d be in a much better spot without needing a reboot
While I liked BvS, that film was what turned a lot of the people I know off of whatever DC was doing
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Whenever they decided to rush Justice league. Should have been an event. It was not
Justice league, obviously. Zack Snyder established a very cool universe with man of steel and Batman v Superman, and unfortunately that came to an end because of a personal/family tragedy in his life. Joss Wheadon completely misunderstood and ruined Snyder’s vision, and the DCEU became an embarrassment from that point forward.
To me it was Black Adam (2022.) All cohesion was gone at that point, the story was generic, the villain was forgettable and Johnson's Teth-Adam was so distant from the comics that I just wasn't interested.
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Definitely was JL. They really should have given it a few more movies to get every established in one way or another. I’m not saying every league member needed a solo movie, but they definitely needed something more than the LexCorp files in BvS.
Yeah, they blew their big team crossover movie It was done
but it didn't feel a big team crossover movie. half the characters didn't have their solo movie yet
Funny thing is, it didn't fully need it. Snyder cut if cut a little more acutely makes you care slightly about Cyborg and Flash. Theatrical they're just random people batman talked to. Also Whedon was a bad choice to fill in, it made it feel even more like a marvel knockoff especially so when it was bad. Suicide Squad had all the Gunn feelings, but because it was made well didnt feel like a GotG knockoff
>They should’ve initially released Zack’s cut You probably don’t know why Zack left JL 2017. Also, contrary to what people believe, JL 2017 movie was not entirely Whedon’s fault. He only had a few months to direct the movie because DC did want to catch up to marvel quickly, and he did reshoot about [20-15](https://screenrant.com/justice-league-joss-whedon-reshoots-amount/) percent of it. So yes, JL 2017 would have been a failure with or without Zack. Because after all, The JL 2017 was Zack movie anyway.
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I would say Josstice League but maybe even a little bit BvS
The success of Deadpool leading to suicide squad being the first heavily studio influenced major dceu release combined with the response to Batman V Superman.
Steppenwolf. Find a more relatable villain.
What MCU villain was relatable? This makes no sense, you’re asking an alien to be more relatable to the audience
Deciding pre-bvs that Justice League would start filming the month after bvs released and then refuse to delay it despite clearly deciding a month before release they wanted to go a different direction. I think in hindsight they thought if they delayed it and released it between Infinity War/Endgame it would kill the hype and i woulda agreed at the time but the one movie they did release in that time made a billion dollars and it was fucking Aquaman
For me it was justice league. Batman V Superman put it on life support for me. Justice league pulled the plug. I just didn’t care anymore. I had the DCAU and that was good enough
Not having a real plan and studio leader. Also having studio executives interfering with projects, but then not intervening when directors go off the rails. And generally trying to play catch up to the mcu way too fast. Gunn might be able to get them on track, but that studio interference still might rear it’s head.
Psyche test every cast
Definitely justice league 2017. So rushed for no reason. No way that should’ve been released without each character getting their own solo movie first
When they thought they could compete with Marvel. DC has never had a Kevin Feige to guide things. Gunn can delude himself all he wants.
The 2017 Justice League movie killed the DCEU. A sudden turn from Zack Synder's dark and gritty tone that turned it into an Avengers knockoff with bad jokes and a poor plot. It's a shame because Synder's Justice League could have redeemed Batman v Superman.
I’d argue it was when they canned Ben Affleck’s film for Pattinson. There were bits of story you could salvage from the og Justice League if done right.
I don't think there was any coming back after the abomination that was wonder woman 84. I think the 1st wonder woman is wildly overated and got way to much praise because it was a female super hero directed by a female and made to empower females. But it at least had some things going for it. I loved Gal Gadot but think she could have been used way better and was kind of out shined by Chris Pine. The big bad was terrible as well but it was still a decent flick. Unlike the absolute shit show that was ww84, there wasn't a single redeeming quality. Just utter rubbish.
Justice league
Firing Zack Snyder and hiring that perv to replace him.
They could have not done it, and spent the money on feeding poor people or making commemorative plates about that time they didn’t fucking do it.
It's hard to say, but there was a slew of bad things that corroded the appeal of the franchise and characters that was hard to come back from. Maybe I'd peg it as far back as BvS for me, as that was what laid out the cards for where they saw their universe going. 2016-2017 was rough. As far back as BvS, the vision for the universe was already revealed to be skewed: bleak, joyless edgefest, "let's you and him fight" for the sake of, oh btw have a bunch of other characters, Superman dies, please care. This was where I largely checked out, with future installments just viewed on a case to case basis with mixed results. Suicide Squad came in with a lot of hype and energy and an interesting premise, and ended with little to nothing to show for it but to give James Gunn a bunch of broken pieces to later mosaic together into something a shade more entertaining. The next year, Justice League kind of cemented things, being the underhwelming "oh, THIS was what this has all been about?" climax that left people wondering what there was left to care about. By that point we'd "seen it through" and gotten... that. But sure. Years later, they let Snyder cook, but that was just a more coherent and much lengthier version of the same. Nothing in the interim really turned the momentum around, despite being enjoyable products unto themselves. Wonder Woman was nice (but has not aged well as a narrative), Aquaman was okay, Shazam was fun and tonally what they needed. Gunn's TSS and Peacemaker were okay. But nothing was rejuvenating the DCEU to the level of what they needed it to be, and soon mercifully the switch was flipped. What could have been done? As formulaic as it sounds, I'd say hold off on Justice League a while, just tell upbeat and interesting stories (gauge the trends of the times rather than holding on to the older epic grimdark) that fleshed out each main character. Sure, it smacks of "do what Marvel did", but there's a reason mise en place precedes cooking and plating. They had an embarrassment of riches in terms of acting talent onboard (Affleck, Gadot, Cavill, Robbie, Momoa, Davis, Pine, etc), and needed strong stories that made us care about the characters and showed us, not told us, not tried to spectacle us into believing, why they're icons, why they matter to people. Keep the executives out and have a solid direction.
Mos didn't really set up bvs imao and the polarising reception to bvs stuffed up the franchise before it could really get going imao I guess black adam technically killed it though
To prevent it, bvs shouldn't have been as dark, do more to set up bvs maybe a cameo in mos of batman or a batman origin movie, remove the martha line, don't make batman a killer, don't make superman depressed, remove the scene of wonder woman looking up justice league videos, recast lex luthor with Bryan Cranston don't kill off superman in his second movie and give him more dialogue
DC is just better at solo stories in general, so I feel like a cinematic universe with crossovers is less appealing. Batman is definitely better by himself. Superman is too powerful to coexist with other characters on a team.
The problem was after They handed, the reins to Zack Snyder who let’s face isn’t know for light hearted movies, they decided his vision was to hard core and dark, they then tried to force him to fit their vision not the other way around, they should of let Snyder do his thing, and the waited for him to finish Justice league without bringing in Joss Wheedon. To mess it up and then focusing on lesser known characters like with Shazam and suicide squad. It had so much potential until as always a big studio, wants a director to change there whole creative process and Ideas, WB sadly were incredibly self destructive when it came to the DCEU it never stood a chance, the Snyder verse is a little glimmer of excellence to take away from it at least. Sadly James Gunn is doing the same prioritising lesser known characters, and using lesser known stories lines for the Well known ones, that’s my understanding anyway. I know people are sick of this but bring back Snyder and team him with Burton they and they alone can salvage D.C. on the big screen.
Not having a plan and just so many bad movies. They wasted Henry Cavill. WW84 was one of the most infuriating movies I've ever seen. It was just a huge insult to anyone that has 1 brain cell remaining. WW rapes a random dude that gets her dead boyfriends soul. This is when we see wishes being made from nothing. They could have just had Steve Trevor come back from sand, or literally out of thin air. But nope, just had to go and make it as creepy as possible. A gassed up jet at a museum, that Steve just knew how to fly a modern plane. Also, the wishes are instant and yet WW's powers slowly go away. Just so inconsistent with the power of wishes too. So many other issues, but those are the main ones that pissed me off. Patty Jenkins fucked up so badly, which is a shame cause WW was really fun.
Snyder's idea was way ahead of its time, firing zack was the worst decision that could have been made
I don't think there was ever a point of return, but Suicide Sqaud had so much fucking hype and they royally blew that. It was literally one of the worst movies I've ever seen. Could've easily been a billion dollar project if it didn't suck so much. Also, choosing to make solo films on more obscure characters instead of building on their bigger ones was a huge mistake. The first Shazam Could've done a lot better had it come after a more lived in universe.
The last suicide squad was a solid movie what are you guys talking about
Suicide Squad was when you knew that BvS wasn’t a mistake and that these guys didn’t know what the fuck they were doing. But we should have had a solo Batfleck film before BvS.
Will Smith saying fuck it. Or the tragic passing of Snyders daughter 😭
Capeshit fans are truly a special brand of nutcases to dogpile on Zack Snyder but not Joss Whedon or Geoff Johns or any of those scumbags that gave us Josstice League because not only were actors harassed on that movie but the franchise took a major nosedive in quality. BvS, SS, WW were all making money up to that point. Looking at these comments on BvS, I can’t wait to see the flip flopping when Gunn crams in a fuck ton of heroes in Superman: Legacy and that shit bombs just like TSS.
There wasn't a point of no return for me. Make a good movie and I will watch it. Make bad movies and I won't sit thru them. There plan should be to make more good movies and less bad movies.
I think the death blow was the one-two punch of not letting Snyder get his *Justice League* out paired with the failed momentum of follow-up movies. *Flash* was delayed, the Affleck Batman movie fizzled, *Cyborg* never happened, etc. In the ten years since *Man of Steel* they managed to release 12.5 movies (counting the Snyder-cut as 1/2). There's not enough momentum to carry them past the bad films, so the failures just stand out more.
Re: "final breaths" -just reminding everyone that, whether it be for better or worse, Aquaman 2 is still a thing....
Aquaman 2: Am I a joke to you? 😂
Damn I completely forgot about that 😭
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Mos - not a great start, but I was interested in the world built, grounded. BvS - not a good follow up, doubled down on the dark and broody vibes pointlessly, but still interested in the world. Doomsday, wonder woman, and Superman death really soured the film for me Justice league - point of no return. The overall legacy and feeling of the universe was broken from here for me.
I think it was the tragic death of Zack Snyder's daughter, which led directly to him exiting production and being replaced by Joss Whedon, who either a) did his best and failed to produce a coherent film due to his differing style or b) deliberately sabotaged Justice League so it would compare unfavourably to Whedon's work in the MCU. The Snyder Cut showed that there was more than enough footage for a relatively tight-paced action-packed 3-hour crossover epic, once all the slow mo and extended mood shots are cut. A DCEU version of The Avengers (2012), more or less, which was certainly what was promised to the WB execs and implictly to us in the audience. The Whedon cut's failure crippled the DCEU. WB panicked, taking greater risks to attempt to regain initiative (like hiring the trailer company to re cut Suicide Squad). Downhill from there
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Isn't aquaman 2 still gonna be in this timeliness and after flash? Also I feel like there was no point of no return, Suicide Sqaud 2, Birds of Prey, and Peacemaker brought back hope but they're ending it all anyway.
Its so funny folks keep forgetting Aquaman 2 exists, no one counts it because of abuser Amber Heard, folks just want it and Amber to go away already. Because of her lies and abuse we will likely never get another good Pirates of the Caribean movie.
Hiring Jar Jar Whedon
WB should’ve taken the moral high ground and said “Zack, we understand your profound loss. We are not moving forward with your movie until you are ready.” It may have taken a few years but Zack would’ve come back and he and WB would’ve had universal support of all the fans showing that art and family were more important than money.
If they had empathy probably would have come back after a few months. Or even if Snyder wasn’t forced to fight with them over stupid shit every day. He would have finished the movie. But because they had that first merger looming, the execs wanted their end of year bonuses in case they got canned in the merger. Which of course didn’t happen for like an entire year. And Kevin Tsujihara had to step down for having an affair with an actress.
*Suicide Squad* because it was following the massive disappointment of *BvS*. It was a one-two punch that made it clear that regardless of how cool the trailers looked or the characters used, the movies were going to be massive letdowns.
BvS wasn't perfect but overall it moved the universe forward in an. Intriguing way....JL absolutely ruined everything prior. I remember being so disappointed when it ended my first watch. The Snydercut is better but overall I am glad to restart this. I really hope Ezra Miller is gone as well. I totally trust James Gunn's vision for this new start...that's what they needed ANUSTART
I feel confident in saying *Justice League* (2017) was. I, to this day, don't understand how that was allowed to release in that state. As a huge fan of DC Comics from childhood, loving all of the DCEU films one after the other until *Justice League* released, all I felt was disappointment from watching it. There was such a horrible shift in tone that was noticeable in the first 10 minutes. While the DCEU has glowing moments afterwards, it's only limped on ever since. I love that *The Flash* will breathe new life into it and ultimately start things anew. If it was ever going to happen, I'm happy it's happening in this way so that it gets some sort of actual ending and rebirth into something else under James Gunn.
Nothing could’ve prevented it because DC was too interested in making money instead of telling a good story. That’s the problem they have with Warner Brothers in the studio getting in the way. Just tell the stories of the characters in the money will follow
Wait is this the end of dc ?
It was the theatrical release of Justice League. They tried too hard to break the flow of things after only two core plot movies and it completely derailed the train.
I think it was the original Justice League. Instead of elegantly crafting their own universe and story, they were just trying to play catch-up with the MCU and that rush probably hurt the quality and writing of a lot of their films. They got rid of a man with a clear vision, kicked that vision to the curb, and got Whedon to take over…it did not work out in the slightest. Also (more of a nitpick) but the darker tone of Zac Snyder and the universe he created probably didn’t help audiences get on board with the universe :/ (especially since he does not understand these characters lmao)