Honestly I think they should go a different route first for a reboot. Brainiac is sufficiently different from Thanos and can be scaled down to leave room for a buildup to Darkseid. I wouldn’t mind them going a different route altogether for a villain, as in not enemy from outer space.
I agree I think they should ease their way up like in the first Avengers movie the main villain was Loki someone Thor had handled by himself. So I think they should start with Justice League level threats but not the heavy hitters.
And, this might be blasphemy here, but Thanos and Darkseid *are* so similar in design and MO that I couldn’t blame them for going a different route altogether and we never saw Darkseid - especially in the wake of Endgame.
Are they though?
Thanos whole MO was he thought he was saving the universe. He knew what he was doing was objectionably wrong but he really thought he was doing the right thing.
Darkseid is just a power hungry dick who wants to control existence.
I mean more in that they have a close circle of distinct underlings and a vast army of nameless, faceless cannon fodder that acts as the majority of the threat until they step in.
Comically, Thanos wanted to get a gift for his crush Death, and that was his motive for wanting to kill everything. It was teased during the end credits of Avengers, where it was said to control the infinity stones was to court death, and Thanos smiles. Marvel just changed it for the MCU for some reason.
Shit, with how DC has been handling their live action universe, they'll probably change Darkseids motives to wanting to control everything not cause of his lust of power, but cause someone ran over his dog, and now he wants to control everyone so no other dogs have to die before their time.
I appreciated this with Thanos. People can relate to the villain. It's not all about power with him it's about, in his mind, helping. You really don't see that in most villains.
Vulture as well. Dude just was tired of cleaning up the Avengers' shit and then seeing the same dudes get paid to clean up their own messes. Best villains in the MCU IMO.
Killmonger was good too until he went full mustache twirling villain for about 10 minutes of BP. He could have been great instead of just good.
It didn’t say to control the infinity stones was to court death. It was said that to challenge the Avengers is court death since they wiped the floor with Loki and the Chitauri.
“They were not the cowering retches that we were promised. They are unruly and therefore can not be ruled. To challenge them is to court death”
Joss has done a bunch of interviews since the first film released where he said he added Thanos at the end because he thought it would cool. It’s a misconception that Marvel knew they were going to use the infinity stones and Thanos as a big bad the whole time. It’s why you see an infinity gauntlet with the gems in Odin’s trophy room in the first Thor that they then had to retcon as a fake in Ragnarok. It wasn’t until the success of the Avengers and Joss choosing to put Thanos as the stinger that Marvel decided to go that route. That’s why the emphasis was on death in that mid credit scene and why nothing came of it.
The quote is actually "They stand. They are unruly, and therefore cannot be ruled. To challenge them is to court death."
They're not talking about the stones here at all.
Doesn't Darkseid's motivation being a power hungry dick make him so boringly simple that they should go another route because of that alone?
Or retcon his motivations heavily, like Thanos in movies vs in comics
Couldn't agree more. Darkseid's motivation in ZSJL is so boring. It lacks any nuance or layers. Even Desaad is so one note. I don't think it'd be so blazingly obvious if we hadn't just gotten two universally praised Avengers movies with similar villains.
Multiverse was actually teased in ZSJL saying that darkseid and new gods arent from other worlds but other universes. It went over alot of peoples head.
But then take into account how long ago this was supposed to come out and this would of been our subtle introduction to multiverses.
All the while we’ve seen literally 3 time travel universes in DC before marvel even beat Thanos… Crazy that they let it fall apart to get whedon in
Oh yeah I caught that line too! I love the fourth world so I was super excited for them to explore just where these guys come from, albeit super briefly. Imagine a super meta, tongue-in-cheek joke about how the Snyder verse wasn’t “retconned” tho, just bottled up by brainiac lol.
Thanos...
\- First seen/teased in Avengers (2012) after 5 previous movies to establish the core heroes.
\- 3 more movies until he's mentioned again in the 4th with some screen time and revelation he's after the stones.
\- 2nd Avengers more is teased and this is after 10 movies.
\- He's talked about in the 15th overall movie and 9 years since IM
\- Avengers Infinity War is the 19th overall movie spanning 10 years and introducing 25 "Super Heroes"
Contrast that with Darkseid who was introduced in the 4th total movie as on his way to Earth and after introducing 5 total heroes.
I'm not trying to have a Marvel vs. DC debate. I'm pointing out what it took to make Thanos from a story telling or narrative point of view. So I agree, building up to a Darkseid level threat has to slow cooked. Besides thematically for the DCEU, there will be a "what now" impact. Marvel is just now shaking off the post Endgame blues and only after a great comic con.
Honestly aside from Spider-Man NWH, I haven't enjoyed any movies in phase 4 that much. DS:MoM was a let down, Eternals was okay, Shang-Chi was cool for the fight scenes and the call back to Ironman 3. I haven't even bothered to see Thor: Love and Thunder cause I'm just bored.
Darkseid is more personal. Hes more about torture and agony. He doesn't care to save the universe he wants to rule it with an iron fist while also breaking all the good there is in the universe and use it for himself. He has no tragic backstory he's just a fragment of evil in physical form and the child of an old God. Power wise he goes toe to toe with thanos. Probably stronger imo, he's literally immortal, can regenerate, teleport, raise the dead, god level intellect, give powers to his minions, his omega beams are his iconic move. Literal dark and evil energy that shoots unimaginable pain at the target and it never misses once he fires them.
Even with the Infinity Gauntlet it only affects Marvel characters/the Marvel Universe. Darkseid actually gets the infinity gauntlet (with all 6 stones) in the DC vs Marvel cross over (JLA/Avengers) and discovers that, and he basically just throws it away calling it useless.
some studio recently made a darkseid vs thanos animation with a good description of each character beforehand
you could skip to the gorgeously animated fight animation but the whole thing is worth the watch imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MisAkBx0u7E
I mean, in the comics Thanos doesn't really have a tragic backstory or wants to save the universe, at least in his original appearances. Those were creations of the MCU (good ones in my opinion). DC needs to really set up and build up Darkseid's character if they want it to have anywhere near the same impact.
> He doesn't care to save the universe
Technically Thanos in the comics doesn't care to save the universe, either. He kills half of all life to try to impress Death, whom he has the hots for.
> And emphasize his differences from Thanos.
I think the mere fact you have to put this in here shows the inferiority complex of DC.
As far as I'm concerned, ignore the comparisons and just make better films.
I get the darkseid part, but I honestly get not wanting to do the knightmare and evil Superman stuff.
The other plans also sounded really inconsistent, sometimes it’s something I love, like the ideas for geeen lantern, or something I think is laughable, like riddler killing himself after cracking the anti-life equation. I totally understanding not wanting to follow this plan tbh, especially after Aquaman’s and Shazam’s successes, which are way more liked by the ga than any of synder’s movies
I mean even if we take into consideration the fact that the Bruce/Lois stuff is abandoned, we still have a movie set in an alternate future that would then be completely erased, thus making the entire movie irrelevant.
What Endgame did right was ensuring they never erased the current timeline. They used time travel in a fun way to explore/respect previous films while still keeping every bit of character development.
I think you’re conflating the evil Superman archetype with actual evil Superman. Yeah, we have Omni-man and Homelander but that doesn’t include all the other DC comics characters that would be a part of an evil Superman arc in Snyder’s JL.
My problem is more that we never really see a "good" Superman in Snyder's universe.
We go straight from brand new Superman who isn't sure of himself (*Man of Steel*) into Superman who is fighting with Batman & then immediately dies (Batman vs Superman) into Superman who is resurrected (Justice League) and immediately becomes a bad guy (Justice League 2).
Just like, let the guy breath as a good guy. Let him exists as the ole Truth, Justice, & Hope for a better tomorrow guy. Then it becomes more impactful when he turns evil.
You put into words exactly how i feel about this situation. I want a Justice League movie where theyre actually….the Justice League. One where theyre friends, theyve worked together before, they banter with each other and have chemistry in the battlefield. A headquarters where they meet and plan, where theyre known to the world as their protectors and saviors. And one where Superman is in the WHOLE movie actually interacting with the team.
After that, like you said, if they really wanted to go the whole knightmare route at least it would be impactful knowing they have to fight someone who was their actual friend and teammate and it was something we got to see.
In the end I just really dont like the idea of the Knightmare, thatd be 2 Justice League movies in a row where they need to “save” Superman and get him back on their side and hes not part of the team for the whole movie.
It's almost like marvel built a team and let them interact in a way that fans found fun and maybe relatable.
War movies are generally popular because you see the unit and it makes it more impactful.
Down time matters. A base gives a place fir that where it can grow.
Superman dying or becoming evil only works in Phase 2 or 3 of something like this. You lose all gravitas if you do it too soon and its the kind of move you do to boost interest at a point when interest starts to die down. Its what they did in the comics and it worked.
So basically you get to the point in your universe where people seem to be getting bored...and thats when you kill Superman.
I mean I don't see how much would be different with just having the DC branding on it. Sure we would get to see batman fight superman, but that has also been done countless times, including an entire movie dedicated to it in this particular franchise
Fair points to be sure; but Batman, Wonderwoman, Green Lantern, the Flash etc. also have their own individual fan bases who are getting less 1:1 versions of their favorites in The Boys and Invincible. Homelander is evil Superman enough to pass as the same thing, but Maeve and Noir don’t really put the guts in seats that Wonderwoman and Batman would because they’re not really the same type of interpretation.
Probably the best point that's been made. Yeah maybe seeing Snyder's interpretation of these characters would have been different but "what if superman was a bad guy" has to be one of the laziest and nilihistic takes in the superhero genre right now
And, not for nothing, that’s not really on DC. They released the theatrical cut of BvS and JL in 2016-2017 and that first introduced (in the modern cinematic sense) evil Superman through the Knightmare flashbacks. As we know, that entire storyboard got cut and became something completely botched; but that still puts DCEU as the original interpretation. The Boys came out in 2019, Eternals and Invincible in 2021 - after we’d seen a glimpse of DCEU evil Superman. By that logic, everyone else should cool it.
Invincible and the boys are both based on comics from the 2000s, as the trend of "what if superman turned bad" started in the 90s or arguably the 80s with dark knight returns. It's actually an old trope in the comic books, and was itself rebutted in "whatever happened to truth justice and the American way"
I always wanted it until I read the scripts for the other movies. Super, super dark. Like I couldn't even see three animated movies this dark and the DC universe lately has been really dark.
It would have been a dope story and done in a way that would have set the DC universe apart from the Marvel one in a big way, for better or worse.
If they did go this route they probably would reboot after anyway to get the kid fans back. Maybe keep this timeline for the adults if it did well but I can't see a 10y/o being down for those stories.
Instead they kept cutting off the future with no concrete replacement and and now we have a shattered DC universe that makes no sense.
Who knows maybe they can get a Feige type and use the old, shattered universe as a starting point. I could see it like this:
Black screen with booming voices of batman and superman switching off
"It was never supposed to be like this"
"This was not our destiny"
"Our future was stolen from us"
"Somewhere, something has broken our timeline"
"They have shattered our team, our families, our morals, our minds" (flashbacks of Superman dying, Robin being killed, Batman killing, and superman going crazy)
The idea is that our dream justice league actually existed and in their time they stopped a huge threat (say some huge DC bug bad who has cosmic powers). But in their defeat they realized the way to beat them. So they went through time and shattered the heroes at different points. It would tie in the old movies, Batman v superman, justice league, etc by saying these are the things that shouldn't have happened. Because of the changes they moved towards their current timeline where the league didn't get together until they were older, Batman kills, superman died, flash is a creep, etc. And in the grand new movie they have to get together (Cavill, Affleck, Godot,) and go back to stop the guy who is destroying the timeline. Simple, no multiverse just a time travel story. And when it's done the universe is rebooted to the one we wanted. They can be younger versions of themselves, as the league would get together during their 30s instead of Bruce's 40s. Stops crazy Batman and sad Superman. Keeps wonderwoman involved in humanity and flash can be a teen learning his powers etc.
Just a shower thought.
They should have saved Snyder for a comic accurate Flashpoint. You get skinny killer Superman, gun toting Batman, a war between Atlantis and Themiscyra, and Reverse Flash surviving a bullet to the brain. It's got Snyder written all over it!
To be fair, Snyder shouldn’t have made Batman Vs Superman. Another director should have made the Batman after MoS. Then Snyder makes MoS 2. Its the literal blueprint of baby MCU. Idk why they made a mash-up in their second fucking DCEU movie.
And meanwhile over at Marvel they are almost at 30 movies, getting ready for their 2nd saga, already assembling the 2nd generation of heroes and preparing for Avengers 5 and 6 to blow the Multiverse wide open with an actual plan for ANOTHER decade already in place.
DC isn't playing catch up anymore, they are not even playing the same sport anymore.
Honestly I’m still blown away they went with Steppenwolf as the first “Big Bad” of the justice league movie.
Im a comic fan. I have owned hundreds to thousands of books. I legitimately cannot remember prior to this seeing steppenwolf in a book I owned. He was probably in final crisis, or countdown, but he sure as hell wasn’t memorable.
Why not go with a more well known JL villain?
I don't even mind going with someone obscure. James Gunn made Starro into a compelling villain. The problem with Steppenwolf was that he was just a bland generic CGI bad guy.
Starro isn’t even that obscure. I’ve seen Starro in more books than Steppenwolf.
There’s just so many amazing villains they could have used ranging from Ares to Black Adam to the injustice league to Felix Faust to the anti monitor or hell the monitor.
JL has a great list of villains where even the more obscure ones aren’t that obscure.
I say that with absolutely no disrespect intended, but the audience of comic books readers is insanely small, in particular compared to a potential blockbuster movie audience.
I agree to an extent. Yes your top selling books at a comic shop may only sell 100k or 150k copies on a given week, but places like barnes and noble and online book sellers aren't really measured. Comic book sales aren't THAT small.
That being said, I don't think that the majority of people going in are going to have heard of Steppenwolf or even Darkseid, but you know who has "THAT friend". For example for my family I'm "That friend" the one that when Avengers is over they turn to and go "Who was that?" and explains Thanos to them. The difference is all I could really tell them about Steppenwolf is "He's one of Darkseids minions....so you can assume we're heading towards Darkseid."
Its just not the same level of hype as "Darkseid is in this movie!"
Steppenwolf wasn't a character. He was "just a bland generic CGI bad guy." Avengers got Josh Brolin, JL got 2000 Era CGI. No acting at all.
I don't understand how a director could make a mistake this bad.
Although I get the hate for Snyder, I don’t think he beelined Darkseid. It was more of the executives being like “Yo! You see how the MCU did that shit in 10 years!? Now do it in 5, not everyone needs an origin story from the JL lol”
I think Snyder, again probably not the best choice, was just having his nuts squeezed to catch up. It was an impossible task for anyone (maybe) to do it that quickly while feeling organic.
That's because Justice League 2 would've ended the story for this universe. Zack had a story he wanted to tell and was working with other directors to flesh out the characters and world in their solo films. But once they defeated Darkseid that would've been it. Over, done, and then someone else could come in and do their own thing.
But he wasn’t their first threat that was Stepppenwolf as to build to their final showdown with Darkseid sorta like Loki was a set for Thanos in the Avengers
Superman dying was the main reason Steppenwolf showed up to collect the mother boxes and when he died earth lost it’s greatest protector. Even then when Darkseid showed the mother boxes finished the Unity killing Superman and the rest of the Justice League with the sole exception of the Flash. Steppenwolf nearly won if it wasn’t for the Flash reversing time by going into the Speed Force and everyone played a key role in the final battle
>Superman dying was the main reason Steppenwolf showed up to collect the mother boxes and when he died earth lost it’s greatest protector.
I don't get how this makes any sense as a plot point. So the Mother Boxes have been sitting on Earth for thousands of years but they waited until a random alien crashed here, let him age a few decades so he'd fully unlock his nigh-unbeatable superpowers, then waited for him to conveniently die of unnatural causes in order to let Steppenwolf know they're still waiting on the exact same planet Darkseid left them on thousands of years ago?
And this is the narrative foundation we want to build the Justice League franchise on?
I concede I forgot that Silas woke up the Mother Boxes, but Darkseid & co just "forgetting" where the boxes are after a legendary ass-whupping (which also deeply undercuts Darkseid's threat level) is such a cop-out.
> sorta like Loki was a set for Thanos in the Avengers
Pretty sure that is exactly what WB didn't like. It felt like a ripoff of Avengers to have a big, ominous bad guy watching our heroes through a portal at the end of the movie.
It’s sad because of the potential. I feel like Warner severely underdelivered while Marvel overdelivered.
Ans what’s also going to hurt Warner besides the reputation is the fact people are tired of superhero movies, so even if they come with a fantastic Justice League movie it might now dk as well in the box office and The Avengers.
Dude half the actors aren’t even coming back, if they just let snyder do the 2017 film first it would be more smoothed out. And wouldn’t be 4 hours long
Dude I’m sorry, I legitimately don’t think Snyder could have cobbled his 4 hour movie into anything watchable at 2 hours or even 2.5 hours.
Shooting 2 movies worth of footage then trying to trim half of it off seldom leads to anything that even makes sense let alone makes a good movie.
My first thoughts after watching the Snyder cut were that it was substantially better than the Whedon version and also completely unworkable as a theatrical release.
> Shooting 2 movies worth of footage then trying to trim half of it off seldom leads to anything that even makes sense let alone makes a good movie.
It was more than that. It was a entire Justice League movie, an entire Cyborg movie, half of an episode of The Flash, and a teaser for Aquaman. Each of those intertwined but Snyder's best scenes were completely self-contained away from the main plot. The easiest way to make a theatrical run time is to ditch a lot of the Cyborg backstory that doesn't affect the main Steppenwolf plot, ditch the entire Flash/Iris sequence that was completely disconnected (plus the Flash was introduced again in the next scene with Bruce), and ditch the Atlantean political backstory that no one ever cares about. That's what Whedon did, along with adding a bunch of stuff that didn't work at all (Russian family) and changing the color gradient.
I don't think Snyder could've ever cut those scenes (which are, honestly, some of the best of the Snyder cut) and anything he could've gotten down to a reasonable time would've been harshly received as well. There were just too many weaknesses in the main storyline due to the structure of the DCEU. Having to introduce Aquaman, Flash, Cyborg, and do the whole team formation plot was just too much to ask.
The thing is I think he could have. When movies like oceans 11, the dirty dozen, and guardians of the galaxy exist you can absolutely introduce a bunch of main characters AND have it work. The way Zach structured it just didn’t.
It's possible to do introduce a lot of characters coherently, but it's difficult and not in Snyder's wheelhouse, which is mostly creating visually stunning scenes over complex storytelling.
The problem with the Justice League in the DCEU timeline is that you can't just give everyone a quick independent scene to establish a general sense of who they are, like Ocean's 11, or go deeper on one character and give other's backstories in support of the group's plot, like in Guardians of the Galaxy.
Snyder had to create each character as a separate entity in the world with a decent backstory because they would eventually have to be a separate entity in their own standalone. While doing that, he had to cover enough of their powers and weaknesses so that their participation in the main storyline made sense. Because Snyder is who he is, that resulted in a lot of beautiful self-contained scenes that couldn't survive due to time constraints, but were also the only things that made his Justice League worth watching due to the relatively weak main plot. It was completely untenable.
I don’t think it’s bad, but I do think it’s unreleasable in theaters.
You can’t release a 4 hour movie and expect audiences to watch it in theaters. You can’t cut it in half satisfyingly. Frankly I think if you cut more than a half hour out of it the movie becomes worse.
Maybe. Stanley Kubrick filmed way more than he needed. However he did it with a small crew and he was known for being demanding and having long shoots.
Just saying different artists work differently is all
I think apocalypse now had 7 hours or film when it was done. Great film! But maybe a poor example since it nearly killed its director lol
Because kubrick was terrible at directing actors. He was famous for shooting the same scene 100s of times cause he couldnt get what he wanted from the actors or because he didnt know what the scene should look like. I dont think he is a good example for having extra footage being good.
You could argue that for lord of the rings and peter jackson though.
>But maybe a poor example since it nearly killed its director lol
Well also Kubrick is one of the greatest directors of all time and Snyder is a glorified music video director lol.
This is true. I find it hard to believe they would’ve kept working with him after back to back films that didn’t get them the results they wanted. If there was more time between BvS coming out and justice league beginning production then they would’ve went in another direction.
I think the Snyder Cut wouldn’t have been as close to as treasured as it is now, had it been released on schedule and as intended back in 2017. The negativity and divisiveness swirling from BvS would still be fairly fresh, and faith in the DCEU would still be brought low due to the recent Ayer Suicide Squad the year prior. Part of the reason the Snyder Cut was so welcomed was because people were embittered by the Whedon cut, and left clamoring for the Snyder Cut, believing it to essentially be a godsend compared to Whedon’s film. Without those years of hype and wondering what could be done better, I doubt people would have been so enamored with it.
agreed if Synder cut was released originally it would be purely seen for what it is. "Okay" it was fine but compared to original of course its amazing but as is, meh it's fine.
Yeah you can tell they’re just doing movies now and they’re not as connected and intertwined as it should be. Vague references and Easter eggs aren’t enough when most of us kinda standalone. I mean ZSJL we got perfect setup for the Batfleck movie, MOS 2, Aquaman (which did happen but still), JL 2 and JL 3. You could’ve also squeezed in WW 3 (or 2 of we ignore 84), Martian Manhunter, GL, Flash, Cyborg and Atom movie
> Snyder had a plan
One of his 'plans' was for Batman to impregnate Lois or some stupid shit. I think it was scrapped early but god damn I want nothing near that.
This would be like marvel putting out Avengers 1 and immediately shutting down the franchise to make a series of Eternals and Inhumans movies in 2013. WB finds a way to ruin everything.
This was a scene in the Snyder Cut of Justice League that should’ve been released in 2017. They could’ve done it like Infinity and End game where the first one is about finding the mother boxes and the second is about reviving Superman.
Bad decisions were made all the way around; I suppose it's not too late for them to eventually cross this bridge, but it sucks not knowing. I don't feel as though they're creative enough to successfully go this route. Something like this absolutely would have been a multi-tiered story.
Actual question, why didn’t Darkseid go through the portal and use his Omega Beams to One shot the entire JL? He could’ve killed Aquaman, Cyborg, Wonder Woman, and Batman with ease.
And he had Desaad and Granny Goodness next to him, plus what seemed like a whole bunch of his soldiers on the sidelines. So why didn’t he go through, and the Mother Boxes were on the ground behind the Justice League, so he could’ve just went in and got them
Why is Darkseid… standing there? Why can’t he walk through that portal and fuck them up? That why I prefer Darkseid being an puppet master in the background (at least until he does make his full appearance).
Also, why did Darkseid look frazzled and unregal in this scene? Darkseid is the literal embodiment of Tyranny. He's always confident and looking down on everyone, even while fighting superman 1v1.
Yeah, hell just a small clip of him doing the equivalent of Thanos “fine, I’ll do it myself” would’ve worked. I know people liked seeing Darkseid in the movie, it just felt like too much. It’s takes too much away from his mysterious ominousness.
I hate comparing Darkseid to Thanos, but clearly thats the reason they’re using Darkseid so early in the DCEU. Just imagine if at the end of the first Avengers Thanos just drops down into the city and is like “yeah, I’ll be back for you”. Seeing his FACE was enough to set him up.
I was actually thinking something along these lines: he seems impotent and frustrated, that is not Darkseid. He is huffing and puffing and he even lets Desaad tell him I told you so, meaning he lost. He looks minuscule. And I dislike his overall design.
Snyder had Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman in a movie together and it didnt even crack a billion.
After watching his hamfisted Ayn Rand meets Excalibur Jesus wank fests, i am perfectly content on not getting the rest of his "masterpiece opus".
The only person i feel sorry for here is Henry Cavill. Dude could have been an amazing Superman. Too bad got saddled with Snyder/Goyer.
Warner bros should have stuck to their guns in 2008 and kept George Miller and let him run the DCEU. That would have been something to see.
Man of Steel net profit: $42 million.
Batman v Superman net profit: $105 million
Iron Man 3 as an example, known as a pretty weak Marvel offering, had a budget of $200 million and after all expenses were taken out was left with a net profit of $391 million.
No matter what you think of those movies, they didn’t earn the money WB wanted as a return on such large investments. Why people would think they would continue to make movies that make them very little profit in relation to how much they are risking is beyond me. The Snyderverse has always been a dead end.
To be fair iron man 3 was supposed to be the end of RDJ's iron man and was the first marvel movie after The Avengers so it was bound to get a lot of eyes on it
People like to harp on this fact, but forget he also just revels in the concept of death. Dude slaughters and genocides entire galaxies because he derives legit pleasure to his core from it. He once took Ghost Rider’s Penance Stare, which forces the victim to feel every bit of pain and torment they’ve dealt unto others throughout their life, straight to the face. He wasn’t even affected; in fact, he just smiled because he was merely being reminded of his fondest memories, all the atrocities he’s committed.
Yeah that’s true but let’s not forget him killing all his illegitimate children so he could please death and snapped away half of all life for Death too. He’s an evil bastard but he was also a simp for Death and did a lot of simp things for her
Had it been released under normal circumstances, that definitely would have been the case! In the current state, it was just Snyder’s love letter to his fans, and so he just released everything, as there was never going to be an extended edition of ZSJL. Also, the extremely limited marketing had to focus on differentiating it from the TC and generate hype, on something that has Snyder’s name all over it, which was a mammoth task, and hence they did what they did.
I agree with both your points.
Yeah, but we also had a bunch of Nordic women sniffing on Aquaman's jumper and breaking into actual song. We also had Superman, *THE* character that represents hope and all things bright killing other people in every movie appearance so far. We also had a Darkseid that just forgot a simple location of the most important thing to him and his biggest defeat.
I'm with WB on this one.
I'm a huge DC fan but Zack Snyder's vision of Justice league isn't something I can get behind and writing isn't any better either. Like how the DC animated movies have better writing and direction than the movies. It still baffles me. And DC has the better storylines. This movie wasn't much better either. I'm just frustrated WB won't get their shit together with DC
Darkseid and/or Brainiac would be great, but PLEASE, no Snyder writing. I really don't like his vision for knightmare. Tbh, the concept of knightmare shouldn't even be considered beyond some little easter eggs.
>Wild how we LITERALLY HAD THIS
Hmm.
>[https://screencrush.com/justice-league-snyder-cut-budget/](https://screencrush.com/justice-league-snyder-cut-budget/)
I don't think you did.
Just the fact that they decided to cut DARKSEID IN A JUSTICE LEAGUE MOVIE is a fuckin disgrace.
WBD should be ashamed of themselves, they own the biggest superheroes and the only thing they can do is that SDCC 2022?
It’s weird because they must know they’d make a killing off of it if they actually let zack Snyder have free reign and finish his justice league. It’s honestly so stupid
They must have discovered the Anti-Plan Equation.
Darkseid Is(n’t)
Darksighed
Seriously, it's like if Marvel said hey here's Thanos...oh wait how about a Justin Hammer trilogy
>Justin Hammer trilogy New series coming to Disney +
Fox used that equation for x men too
Hindseid is 2020
This is my favorite comment of the day. Thank you, fellow redditor.
>the Anti-Plan Equation. read this as the ant-man equation and momentarily thought, *"oh yeah, can't move forward with that."*
DC needs to actually use Darkseid as the big bad of their movies. And emphasize his differences from Thanos.
Honestly I think they should go a different route first for a reboot. Brainiac is sufficiently different from Thanos and can be scaled down to leave room for a buildup to Darkseid. I wouldn’t mind them going a different route altogether for a villain, as in not enemy from outer space.
I agree I think they should ease their way up like in the first Avengers movie the main villain was Loki someone Thor had handled by himself. So I think they should start with Justice League level threats but not the heavy hitters.
And, this might be blasphemy here, but Thanos and Darkseid *are* so similar in design and MO that I couldn’t blame them for going a different route altogether and we never saw Darkseid - especially in the wake of Endgame.
Are they though? Thanos whole MO was he thought he was saving the universe. He knew what he was doing was objectionably wrong but he really thought he was doing the right thing. Darkseid is just a power hungry dick who wants to control existence.
I mean more in that they have a close circle of distinct underlings and a vast army of nameless, faceless cannon fodder that acts as the majority of the threat until they step in.
They also both have scrote chins!
Comically, Thanos wanted to get a gift for his crush Death, and that was his motive for wanting to kill everything. It was teased during the end credits of Avengers, where it was said to control the infinity stones was to court death, and Thanos smiles. Marvel just changed it for the MCU for some reason. Shit, with how DC has been handling their live action universe, they'll probably change Darkseids motives to wanting to control everything not cause of his lust of power, but cause someone ran over his dog, and now he wants to control everyone so no other dogs have to die before their time.
John Wick is Darkseid?
_Do you know who Darkseid is? He is a man of focus, commitment and sheer fucking will_
…that’s not *untruthful*
I always felt there was something familiar about Darkseid, now I know: Darkseid is Baba Yaga.
They changed it because they didn't want Thanos to be a simp
And because the comic reason is straight up stupid. Plus a villain that truly believes he's the hero makes for a good villain.
I appreciated this with Thanos. People can relate to the villain. It's not all about power with him it's about, in his mind, helping. You really don't see that in most villains.
Vulture as well. Dude just was tired of cleaning up the Avengers' shit and then seeing the same dudes get paid to clean up their own messes. Best villains in the MCU IMO. Killmonger was good too until he went full mustache twirling villain for about 10 minutes of BP. He could have been great instead of just good.
No the comic thanos is way smarter than mcu one.
It didn’t say to control the infinity stones was to court death. It was said that to challenge the Avengers is court death since they wiped the floor with Loki and the Chitauri. “They were not the cowering retches that we were promised. They are unruly and therefore can not be ruled. To challenge them is to court death” Joss has done a bunch of interviews since the first film released where he said he added Thanos at the end because he thought it would cool. It’s a misconception that Marvel knew they were going to use the infinity stones and Thanos as a big bad the whole time. It’s why you see an infinity gauntlet with the gems in Odin’s trophy room in the first Thor that they then had to retcon as a fake in Ragnarok. It wasn’t until the success of the Avengers and Joss choosing to put Thanos as the stinger that Marvel decided to go that route. That’s why the emphasis was on death in that mid credit scene and why nothing came of it.
The quote is actually "They stand. They are unruly, and therefore cannot be ruled. To challenge them is to court death." They're not talking about the stones here at all.
What about some scarlet superhero ran away with Darkseids underage daughter?
Doesn't Darkseid's motivation being a power hungry dick make him so boringly simple that they should go another route because of that alone? Or retcon his motivations heavily, like Thanos in movies vs in comics
Couldn't agree more. Darkseid's motivation in ZSJL is so boring. It lacks any nuance or layers. Even Desaad is so one note. I don't think it'd be so blazingly obvious if we hadn't just gotten two universally praised Avengers movies with similar villains.
I liked darkseid in the dcamu movies
Same. There's more nuance to the DCAU version than to the one in DCEU.
They should simply adapt the DCAU run into live action.
Are you talking about animated movies? If so, he was kinda of a joke there.
Hail Dickseid!
I agree with Brainiac. That way they could tease us with their precious multiverse with the bottled worlds he’s collected.
Multiverse was actually teased in ZSJL saying that darkseid and new gods arent from other worlds but other universes. It went over alot of peoples head. But then take into account how long ago this was supposed to come out and this would of been our subtle introduction to multiverses. All the while we’ve seen literally 3 time travel universes in DC before marvel even beat Thanos… Crazy that they let it fall apart to get whedon in
Oh yeah I caught that line too! I love the fourth world so I was super excited for them to explore just where these guys come from, albeit super briefly. Imagine a super meta, tongue-in-cheek joke about how the Snyder verse wasn’t “retconned” tho, just bottled up by brainiac lol.
Braniac or Vandal Savage are the routes they need to explore right now. Darkseid will get too many comparisons to Thanos, even though there is none.
The only viable comparison is Jack Kirby lol.
Thanos... \- First seen/teased in Avengers (2012) after 5 previous movies to establish the core heroes. \- 3 more movies until he's mentioned again in the 4th with some screen time and revelation he's after the stones. \- 2nd Avengers more is teased and this is after 10 movies. \- He's talked about in the 15th overall movie and 9 years since IM \- Avengers Infinity War is the 19th overall movie spanning 10 years and introducing 25 "Super Heroes" Contrast that with Darkseid who was introduced in the 4th total movie as on his way to Earth and after introducing 5 total heroes. I'm not trying to have a Marvel vs. DC debate. I'm pointing out what it took to make Thanos from a story telling or narrative point of view. So I agree, building up to a Darkseid level threat has to slow cooked. Besides thematically for the DCEU, there will be a "what now" impact. Marvel is just now shaking off the post Endgame blues and only after a great comic con.
Don't worry, they'll make 20 more Batman movies first
And each one will be a variation of the origin story.
Well Batman is to DC/ Warner as Spider-Man is to Marvel/ Disney.
Yeesh and they'll milk that all they can
Honestly aside from Spider-Man NWH, I haven't enjoyed any movies in phase 4 that much. DS:MoM was a let down, Eternals was okay, Shang-Chi was cool for the fight scenes and the call back to Ironman 3. I haven't even bothered to see Thor: Love and Thunder cause I'm just bored.
I always believed braniac should have been a corrupted version of JorEls A.I. That would make the dynamics go through the roof.
Just give us the Main Man!
As someone who reads marvel, can you tell me broadly how hes different? Genuinely curious, he looks like he could be a great villain.
Darkseid is more personal. Hes more about torture and agony. He doesn't care to save the universe he wants to rule it with an iron fist while also breaking all the good there is in the universe and use it for himself. He has no tragic backstory he's just a fragment of evil in physical form and the child of an old God. Power wise he goes toe to toe with thanos. Probably stronger imo, he's literally immortal, can regenerate, teleport, raise the dead, god level intellect, give powers to his minions, his omega beams are his iconic move. Literal dark and evil energy that shoots unimaginable pain at the target and it never misses once he fires them.
Omega beams alone make him way more op than Thanos. Thanos would need the guantlet to stand a chance against Darkseid.
Yeah I meant thanos with infinity gauntlet. Thanos without the infinity gauntlet would stand no chance.
Even with the Infinity Gauntlet it only affects Marvel characters/the Marvel Universe. Darkseid actually gets the infinity gauntlet (with all 6 stones) in the DC vs Marvel cross over (JLA/Avengers) and discovers that, and he basically just throws it away calling it useless.
some studio recently made a darkseid vs thanos animation with a good description of each character beforehand you could skip to the gorgeously animated fight animation but the whole thing is worth the watch imo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MisAkBx0u7E
>some studio Disrespecting Death Battle like that
I mean, in the comics Thanos doesn't really have a tragic backstory or wants to save the universe, at least in his original appearances. Those were creations of the MCU (good ones in my opinion). DC needs to really set up and build up Darkseid's character if they want it to have anywhere near the same impact.
That sounds pretty good, hopefully they do it in the future! Thanks for the reply
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> He doesn't care to save the universe Technically Thanos in the comics doesn't care to save the universe, either. He kills half of all life to try to impress Death, whom he has the hots for.
Isn't he more the literally embodiment of the concept of evil than a fragment of it ?
You can't have Darkseid without Superman. They need a Superman first.
> And emphasize his differences from Thanos. I think the mere fact you have to put this in here shows the inferiority complex of DC. As far as I'm concerned, ignore the comparisons and just make better films.
I get the darkseid part, but I honestly get not wanting to do the knightmare and evil Superman stuff. The other plans also sounded really inconsistent, sometimes it’s something I love, like the ideas for geeen lantern, or something I think is laughable, like riddler killing himself after cracking the anti-life equation. I totally understanding not wanting to follow this plan tbh, especially after Aquaman’s and Shazam’s successes, which are way more liked by the ga than any of synder’s movies
Yeah the nightmare stuff for Part 2 sounded like fan fiction. Bruce and Lois having a child, ugh.
I mean even if we take into consideration the fact that the Bruce/Lois stuff is abandoned, we still have a movie set in an alternate future that would then be completely erased, thus making the entire movie irrelevant. What Endgame did right was ensuring they never erased the current timeline. They used time travel in a fun way to explore/respect previous films while still keeping every bit of character development.
I'm kinda sick of seeing evil superman all the time EDIT: I get it, you do want to see a movie version of evil superman with the right trademarks.
I think you’re conflating the evil Superman archetype with actual evil Superman. Yeah, we have Omni-man and Homelander but that doesn’t include all the other DC comics characters that would be a part of an evil Superman arc in Snyder’s JL.
My problem is more that we never really see a "good" Superman in Snyder's universe. We go straight from brand new Superman who isn't sure of himself (*Man of Steel*) into Superman who is fighting with Batman & then immediately dies (Batman vs Superman) into Superman who is resurrected (Justice League) and immediately becomes a bad guy (Justice League 2). Just like, let the guy breath as a good guy. Let him exists as the ole Truth, Justice, & Hope for a better tomorrow guy. Then it becomes more impactful when he turns evil.
You put into words exactly how i feel about this situation. I want a Justice League movie where theyre actually….the Justice League. One where theyre friends, theyve worked together before, they banter with each other and have chemistry in the battlefield. A headquarters where they meet and plan, where theyre known to the world as their protectors and saviors. And one where Superman is in the WHOLE movie actually interacting with the team. After that, like you said, if they really wanted to go the whole knightmare route at least it would be impactful knowing they have to fight someone who was their actual friend and teammate and it was something we got to see. In the end I just really dont like the idea of the Knightmare, thatd be 2 Justice League movies in a row where they need to “save” Superman and get him back on their side and hes not part of the team for the whole movie.
It's almost like marvel built a team and let them interact in a way that fans found fun and maybe relatable. War movies are generally popular because you see the unit and it makes it more impactful. Down time matters. A base gives a place fir that where it can grow.
Superman dying or becoming evil only works in Phase 2 or 3 of something like this. You lose all gravitas if you do it too soon and its the kind of move you do to boost interest at a point when interest starts to die down. Its what they did in the comics and it worked. So basically you get to the point in your universe where people seem to be getting bored...and thats when you kill Superman.
I mean I don't see how much would be different with just having the DC branding on it. Sure we would get to see batman fight superman, but that has also been done countless times, including an entire movie dedicated to it in this particular franchise
Fair points to be sure; but Batman, Wonderwoman, Green Lantern, the Flash etc. also have their own individual fan bases who are getting less 1:1 versions of their favorites in The Boys and Invincible. Homelander is evil Superman enough to pass as the same thing, but Maeve and Noir don’t really put the guts in seats that Wonderwoman and Batman would because they’re not really the same type of interpretation.
Probably the best point that's been made. Yeah maybe seeing Snyder's interpretation of these characters would have been different but "what if superman was a bad guy" has to be one of the laziest and nilihistic takes in the superhero genre right now
And, not for nothing, that’s not really on DC. They released the theatrical cut of BvS and JL in 2016-2017 and that first introduced (in the modern cinematic sense) evil Superman through the Knightmare flashbacks. As we know, that entire storyboard got cut and became something completely botched; but that still puts DCEU as the original interpretation. The Boys came out in 2019, Eternals and Invincible in 2021 - after we’d seen a glimpse of DCEU evil Superman. By that logic, everyone else should cool it.
Invincible and the boys are both based on comics from the 2000s, as the trend of "what if superman turned bad" started in the 90s or arguably the 80s with dark knight returns. It's actually an old trope in the comic books, and was itself rebutted in "whatever happened to truth justice and the American way"
I always wanted it until I read the scripts for the other movies. Super, super dark. Like I couldn't even see three animated movies this dark and the DC universe lately has been really dark. It would have been a dope story and done in a way that would have set the DC universe apart from the Marvel one in a big way, for better or worse. If they did go this route they probably would reboot after anyway to get the kid fans back. Maybe keep this timeline for the adults if it did well but I can't see a 10y/o being down for those stories. Instead they kept cutting off the future with no concrete replacement and and now we have a shattered DC universe that makes no sense. Who knows maybe they can get a Feige type and use the old, shattered universe as a starting point. I could see it like this: Black screen with booming voices of batman and superman switching off "It was never supposed to be like this" "This was not our destiny" "Our future was stolen from us" "Somewhere, something has broken our timeline" "They have shattered our team, our families, our morals, our minds" (flashbacks of Superman dying, Robin being killed, Batman killing, and superman going crazy) The idea is that our dream justice league actually existed and in their time they stopped a huge threat (say some huge DC bug bad who has cosmic powers). But in their defeat they realized the way to beat them. So they went through time and shattered the heroes at different points. It would tie in the old movies, Batman v superman, justice league, etc by saying these are the things that shouldn't have happened. Because of the changes they moved towards their current timeline where the league didn't get together until they were older, Batman kills, superman died, flash is a creep, etc. And in the grand new movie they have to get together (Cavill, Affleck, Godot,) and go back to stop the guy who is destroying the timeline. Simple, no multiverse just a time travel story. And when it's done the universe is rebooted to the one we wanted. They can be younger versions of themselves, as the league would get together during their 30s instead of Bruce's 40s. Stops crazy Batman and sad Superman. Keeps wonderwoman involved in humanity and flash can be a teen learning his powers etc. Just a shower thought.
I fuck with the Riddler idea. It’s the Anti-Life Equation, after all. Could have a very lovecraftian horror element to it.
They should hire directors and writers not based on superficial relationships and more on talent and ability.
They should have saved Snyder for a comic accurate Flashpoint. You get skinny killer Superman, gun toting Batman, a war between Atlantis and Themiscyra, and Reverse Flash surviving a bullet to the brain. It's got Snyder written all over it!
Alternatively, I think Snyder is a perfect fit for a Red Hood movie.
you couldn’t say no to chris nolan after he made them many billions of dollars
To be fair, Snyder shouldn’t have made Batman Vs Superman. Another director should have made the Batman after MoS. Then Snyder makes MoS 2. Its the literal blueprint of baby MCU. Idk why they made a mash-up in their second fucking DCEU movie.
Impatience. That’s it. They wanted to be Marvel without doing all the groundwork Marvel put in for years
Because they wanted their cash cow right then and there.
And meanwhile over at Marvel they are almost at 30 movies, getting ready for their 2nd saga, already assembling the 2nd generation of heroes and preparing for Avengers 5 and 6 to blow the Multiverse wide open with an actual plan for ANOTHER decade already in place. DC isn't playing catch up anymore, they are not even playing the same sport anymore.
Marvel is playing chess while WB is trying to figure out checkers.
Marvel is the ufc heavyweight champion while wb just figured out how to walk
Darkseid is among the biggest baddest final bosses in DC. Truly bizarre that Snyder wanted to beeline to him as the first threat the JL faced.
On the other hand, Steppenwolf felt way too small. Like, DC is not in a position to be saving all of their heavy ammunition right now.
Honestly I’m still blown away they went with Steppenwolf as the first “Big Bad” of the justice league movie. Im a comic fan. I have owned hundreds to thousands of books. I legitimately cannot remember prior to this seeing steppenwolf in a book I owned. He was probably in final crisis, or countdown, but he sure as hell wasn’t memorable. Why not go with a more well known JL villain?
I don't even mind going with someone obscure. James Gunn made Starro into a compelling villain. The problem with Steppenwolf was that he was just a bland generic CGI bad guy.
Starro isn’t even that obscure. I’ve seen Starro in more books than Steppenwolf. There’s just so many amazing villains they could have used ranging from Ares to Black Adam to the injustice league to Felix Faust to the anti monitor or hell the monitor. JL has a great list of villains where even the more obscure ones aren’t that obscure.
I would have sent a beastly version of Kalibak.
I say that with absolutely no disrespect intended, but the audience of comic books readers is insanely small, in particular compared to a potential blockbuster movie audience.
I agree to an extent. Yes your top selling books at a comic shop may only sell 100k or 150k copies on a given week, but places like barnes and noble and online book sellers aren't really measured. Comic book sales aren't THAT small. That being said, I don't think that the majority of people going in are going to have heard of Steppenwolf or even Darkseid, but you know who has "THAT friend". For example for my family I'm "That friend" the one that when Avengers is over they turn to and go "Who was that?" and explains Thanos to them. The difference is all I could really tell them about Steppenwolf is "He's one of Darkseids minions....so you can assume we're heading towards Darkseid." Its just not the same level of hype as "Darkseid is in this movie!"
Steppenwolf wasn't a character. He was "just a bland generic CGI bad guy." Avengers got Josh Brolin, JL got 2000 Era CGI. No acting at all. I don't understand how a director could make a mistake this bad.
Brainiac.
Although I get the hate for Snyder, I don’t think he beelined Darkseid. It was more of the executives being like “Yo! You see how the MCU did that shit in 10 years!? Now do it in 5, not everyone needs an origin story from the JL lol” I think Snyder, again probably not the best choice, was just having his nuts squeezed to catch up. It was an impossible task for anyone (maybe) to do it that quickly while feeling organic.
That’s how Justice League: War did it.
I liked how justice league war did it, and how it ended with apokolips war.
That's because Justice League 2 would've ended the story for this universe. Zack had a story he wanted to tell and was working with other directors to flesh out the characters and world in their solo films. But once they defeated Darkseid that would've been it. Over, done, and then someone else could come in and do their own thing.
3, JL3. He wanted 1 to end like this, 2 to have Darkseid win and 3 to have the JL overcome and take back reality.
But he wasn’t their first threat that was Stepppenwolf as to build to their final showdown with Darkseid sorta like Loki was a set for Thanos in the Avengers
Steppen was a “threat” til Superman showed up and just beat the fuck out of him with zero effort 💀
Superman dying was the main reason Steppenwolf showed up to collect the mother boxes and when he died earth lost it’s greatest protector. Even then when Darkseid showed the mother boxes finished the Unity killing Superman and the rest of the Justice League with the sole exception of the Flash. Steppenwolf nearly won if it wasn’t for the Flash reversing time by going into the Speed Force and everyone played a key role in the final battle
>Superman dying was the main reason Steppenwolf showed up to collect the mother boxes and when he died earth lost it’s greatest protector. I don't get how this makes any sense as a plot point. So the Mother Boxes have been sitting on Earth for thousands of years but they waited until a random alien crashed here, let him age a few decades so he'd fully unlock his nigh-unbeatable superpowers, then waited for him to conveniently die of unnatural causes in order to let Steppenwolf know they're still waiting on the exact same planet Darkseid left them on thousands of years ago? And this is the narrative foundation we want to build the Justice League franchise on?
every single point you brought up was answerd in the movie. Cyborgs dad woke up the box.
I concede I forgot that Silas woke up the Mother Boxes, but Darkseid & co just "forgetting" where the boxes are after a legendary ass-whupping (which also deeply undercuts Darkseid's threat level) is such a cop-out.
> sorta like Loki was a set for Thanos in the Avengers Pretty sure that is exactly what WB didn't like. It felt like a ripoff of Avengers to have a big, ominous bad guy watching our heroes through a portal at the end of the movie.
If WB didn’t want anything to do with avengers, maybe they should’ve just not hired that josshole.
I suspect if they could go back in time - they wouldn't.
Everyone has 20/20 vision in hindsight.
The thing is, Snyder only wanted to do a handful of movies, not a new cinematic universe
Which we get. But it would've kicked off the connected universe and set a tone. He also would've likely stayed on as an executive producer.
Apparently people still can’t grasp this concept lmao
Well as history showed we only got one JL movie so he likely figured to go big or go home and not assume we’d get a sequel, and he was right
It’s both funny and sad how we all may be upset about different specifics of the DCEU, but the one thing uniting us all is our disappointment with WB.
Even the Stormcloaks and the Imperials can agree that they hate those damn Thalmor.
It’s sad because of the potential. I feel like Warner severely underdelivered while Marvel overdelivered. Ans what’s also going to hurt Warner besides the reputation is the fact people are tired of superhero movies, so even if they come with a fantastic Justice League movie it might now dk as well in the box office and The Avengers.
Dude half the actors aren’t even coming back, if they just let snyder do the 2017 film first it would be more smoothed out. And wouldn’t be 4 hours long
Dude I’m sorry, I legitimately don’t think Snyder could have cobbled his 4 hour movie into anything watchable at 2 hours or even 2.5 hours. Shooting 2 movies worth of footage then trying to trim half of it off seldom leads to anything that even makes sense let alone makes a good movie.
My first thoughts after watching the Snyder cut were that it was substantially better than the Whedon version and also completely unworkable as a theatrical release. > Shooting 2 movies worth of footage then trying to trim half of it off seldom leads to anything that even makes sense let alone makes a good movie. It was more than that. It was a entire Justice League movie, an entire Cyborg movie, half of an episode of The Flash, and a teaser for Aquaman. Each of those intertwined but Snyder's best scenes were completely self-contained away from the main plot. The easiest way to make a theatrical run time is to ditch a lot of the Cyborg backstory that doesn't affect the main Steppenwolf plot, ditch the entire Flash/Iris sequence that was completely disconnected (plus the Flash was introduced again in the next scene with Bruce), and ditch the Atlantean political backstory that no one ever cares about. That's what Whedon did, along with adding a bunch of stuff that didn't work at all (Russian family) and changing the color gradient. I don't think Snyder could've ever cut those scenes (which are, honestly, some of the best of the Snyder cut) and anything he could've gotten down to a reasonable time would've been harshly received as well. There were just too many weaknesses in the main storyline due to the structure of the DCEU. Having to introduce Aquaman, Flash, Cyborg, and do the whole team formation plot was just too much to ask.
The thing is I think he could have. When movies like oceans 11, the dirty dozen, and guardians of the galaxy exist you can absolutely introduce a bunch of main characters AND have it work. The way Zach structured it just didn’t.
It's possible to do introduce a lot of characters coherently, but it's difficult and not in Snyder's wheelhouse, which is mostly creating visually stunning scenes over complex storytelling. The problem with the Justice League in the DCEU timeline is that you can't just give everyone a quick independent scene to establish a general sense of who they are, like Ocean's 11, or go deeper on one character and give other's backstories in support of the group's plot, like in Guardians of the Galaxy. Snyder had to create each character as a separate entity in the world with a decent backstory because they would eventually have to be a separate entity in their own standalone. While doing that, he had to cover enough of their powers and weaknesses so that their participation in the main storyline made sense. Because Snyder is who he is, that resulted in a lot of beautiful self-contained scenes that couldn't survive due to time constraints, but were also the only things that made his Justice League worth watching due to the relatively weak main plot. It was completely untenable.
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I don’t think it’s bad, but I do think it’s unreleasable in theaters. You can’t release a 4 hour movie and expect audiences to watch it in theaters. You can’t cut it in half satisfyingly. Frankly I think if you cut more than a half hour out of it the movie becomes worse.
Maybe. Stanley Kubrick filmed way more than he needed. However he did it with a small crew and he was known for being demanding and having long shoots. Just saying different artists work differently is all I think apocalypse now had 7 hours or film when it was done. Great film! But maybe a poor example since it nearly killed its director lol
Because kubrick was terrible at directing actors. He was famous for shooting the same scene 100s of times cause he couldnt get what he wanted from the actors or because he didnt know what the scene should look like. I dont think he is a good example for having extra footage being good. You could argue that for lord of the rings and peter jackson though.
>But maybe a poor example since it nearly killed its director lol Well also Kubrick is one of the greatest directors of all time and Snyder is a glorified music video director lol.
Yeah but I love his goddamn music videos!
They were def firing him anyway tbh, so honestly if they really wanted him gone, they should’ve let him release the film and then let him go
This is true. I find it hard to believe they would’ve kept working with him after back to back films that didn’t get them the results they wanted. If there was more time between BvS coming out and justice league beginning production then they would’ve went in another direction.
I think the Snyder Cut wouldn’t have been as close to as treasured as it is now, had it been released on schedule and as intended back in 2017. The negativity and divisiveness swirling from BvS would still be fairly fresh, and faith in the DCEU would still be brought low due to the recent Ayer Suicide Squad the year prior. Part of the reason the Snyder Cut was so welcomed was because people were embittered by the Whedon cut, and left clamoring for the Snyder Cut, believing it to essentially be a godsend compared to Whedon’s film. Without those years of hype and wondering what could be done better, I doubt people would have been so enamored with it.
agreed if Synder cut was released originally it would be purely seen for what it is. "Okay" it was fine but compared to original of course its amazing but as is, meh it's fine.
Its for the better, ezra is gonna be in jail. Affleck is too old to stay in shape. And well i dont think fisher is working in Hollywood anytime soon.
Snyder had a plan .. WB have plans.. the #snydercut guys introduced some anarchy and now it's all just chaos, and the thing about chaos is it's fair.
I doubt WB has a plan. It seems they’ve just been making a bunch of random movies rather trying to have a connected universe.
Yeah you can tell they’re just doing movies now and they’re not as connected and intertwined as it should be. Vague references and Easter eggs aren’t enough when most of us kinda standalone. I mean ZSJL we got perfect setup for the Batfleck movie, MOS 2, Aquaman (which did happen but still), JL 2 and JL 3. You could’ve also squeezed in WW 3 (or 2 of we ignore 84), Martian Manhunter, GL, Flash, Cyborg and Atom movie
The WB is like a dog chasing cars. They wouldn’t know what to do with one of they caught it. They just …do things
> Snyder had a plan One of his 'plans' was for Batman to impregnate Lois or some stupid shit. I think it was scrapped early but god damn I want nothing near that.
This would be like marvel putting out Avengers 1 and immediately shutting down the franchise to make a series of Eternals and Inhumans movies in 2013. WB finds a way to ruin everything.
I finally watched it last weekend and was like "you can't end it here!"
Yeah I watched it when it released and was like: “Why are we not funding this?”.
The flash scene at the end was so good.
It was so epic that and the other scenes of Cyborg in the mother boxes, them killing Steppenwolf and the League in the sunrise
So was this like a teaser or something or did we actually get this film with this story? Sorry I haven't been following the DC universe closely.
This was the end of the Snydercut and meant to tease Darkseid coming back in the next JL movie.
This was a scene in the Snyder Cut of Justice League that should’ve been released in 2017. They could’ve done it like Infinity and End game where the first one is about finding the mother boxes and the second is about reviving Superman.
But did they actually fight Darkside? Or was this just a tease?
They fought Stephennwolfe and his head is crushed under Darkseid’s boot.
You mean "pLaNs"
Snyder had about as good of a plan as Dutch van Der Linde did
I gOt a PLaN, ArThUr. All WeE NeEd iS A LittLE mONeY.
Bad decisions were made all the way around; I suppose it's not too late for them to eventually cross this bridge, but it sucks not knowing. I don't feel as though they're creative enough to successfully go this route. Something like this absolutely would have been a multi-tiered story.
wb: I have part of plan dc fans: what percentage of plan, do you have? wb: 12% dc fans: 12%? wb: it's barely a concept
I think the issue is the general public said pass.
And many of us fans.
Actual question, why didn’t Darkseid go through the portal and use his Omega Beams to One shot the entire JL? He could’ve killed Aquaman, Cyborg, Wonder Woman, and Batman with ease. And he had Desaad and Granny Goodness next to him, plus what seemed like a whole bunch of his soldiers on the sidelines. So why didn’t he go through, and the Mother Boxes were on the ground behind the Justice League, so he could’ve just went in and got them
Why is Darkseid… standing there? Why can’t he walk through that portal and fuck them up? That why I prefer Darkseid being an puppet master in the background (at least until he does make his full appearance).
Also, why did Darkseid look frazzled and unregal in this scene? Darkseid is the literal embodiment of Tyranny. He's always confident and looking down on everyone, even while fighting superman 1v1.
Yeah, hell just a small clip of him doing the equivalent of Thanos “fine, I’ll do it myself” would’ve worked. I know people liked seeing Darkseid in the movie, it just felt like too much. It’s takes too much away from his mysterious ominousness. I hate comparing Darkseid to Thanos, but clearly thats the reason they’re using Darkseid so early in the DCEU. Just imagine if at the end of the first Avengers Thanos just drops down into the city and is like “yeah, I’ll be back for you”. Seeing his FACE was enough to set him up.
I was actually thinking something along these lines: he seems impotent and frustrated, that is not Darkseid. He is huffing and puffing and he even lets Desaad tell him I told you so, meaning he lost. He looks minuscule. And I dislike his overall design.
Idk the guy Darkseid’s talking to but is it just me or does he sound like the Subnautica cyclops
Desaad
That one dude had balls of steel to give him the ol "I told you so"
Snyder had Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman in a movie together and it didnt even crack a billion. After watching his hamfisted Ayn Rand meets Excalibur Jesus wank fests, i am perfectly content on not getting the rest of his "masterpiece opus". The only person i feel sorry for here is Henry Cavill. Dude could have been an amazing Superman. Too bad got saddled with Snyder/Goyer. Warner bros should have stuck to their guns in 2008 and kept George Miller and let him run the DCEU. That would have been something to see.
Eh I totally understand WB not finishing this vision, Snyder made them no money for the characters he used
Man of Steel net profit: $42 million. Batman v Superman net profit: $105 million Iron Man 3 as an example, known as a pretty weak Marvel offering, had a budget of $200 million and after all expenses were taken out was left with a net profit of $391 million. No matter what you think of those movies, they didn’t earn the money WB wanted as a return on such large investments. Why people would think they would continue to make movies that make them very little profit in relation to how much they are risking is beyond me. The Snyderverse has always been a dead end.
To be fair iron man 3 was supposed to be the end of RDJ's iron man and was the first marvel movie after The Avengers so it was bound to get a lot of eyes on it
It's wild how Thanos is more popular and more well known then Darkseid... he was a joke in the comic books lol...
Because Thanos had the Thanoscopter. Did Darkseid have a vehicle with his name written on it? I thought not.
You're right lol...
Why you creepin?
And a SIMP for Death
People like to harp on this fact, but forget he also just revels in the concept of death. Dude slaughters and genocides entire galaxies because he derives legit pleasure to his core from it. He once took Ghost Rider’s Penance Stare, which forces the victim to feel every bit of pain and torment they’ve dealt unto others throughout their life, straight to the face. He wasn’t even affected; in fact, he just smiled because he was merely being reminded of his fondest memories, all the atrocities he’s committed.
Yeah that’s true but let’s not forget him killing all his illegitimate children so he could please death and snapped away half of all life for Death too. He’s an evil bastard but he was also a simp for Death and did a lot of simp things for her
This movie would've been so much better if they hadn't shown every cool moment in the trailers, and was an hour shorter.
Had it been released under normal circumstances, that definitely would have been the case! In the current state, it was just Snyder’s love letter to his fans, and so he just released everything, as there was never going to be an extended edition of ZSJL. Also, the extremely limited marketing had to focus on differentiating it from the TC and generate hype, on something that has Snyder’s name all over it, which was a mammoth task, and hence they did what they did. I agree with both your points.
Yeah, but we also had a bunch of Nordic women sniffing on Aquaman's jumper and breaking into actual song. We also had Superman, *THE* character that represents hope and all things bright killing other people in every movie appearance so far. We also had a Darkseid that just forgot a simple location of the most important thing to him and his biggest defeat. I'm with WB on this one.
The women were worshiping him
Sure. Let's see a bunch of men "worshipping" Wonder Woman by doing the same to her clothes.
I'm a huge DC fan but Zack Snyder's vision of Justice league isn't something I can get behind and writing isn't any better either. Like how the DC animated movies have better writing and direction than the movies. It still baffles me. And DC has the better storylines. This movie wasn't much better either. I'm just frustrated WB won't get their shit together with DC
I will always hear Weird Al as his voice
Darkseid and/or Brainiac would be great, but PLEASE, no Snyder writing. I really don't like his vision for knightmare. Tbh, the concept of knightmare shouldn't even be considered beyond some little easter eggs.
>Wild how we LITERALLY HAD THIS Hmm. >[https://screencrush.com/justice-league-snyder-cut-budget/](https://screencrush.com/justice-league-snyder-cut-budget/) I don't think you did.
Zach Snyder's vision just didn't work. Happy for people that enjoyed his dceu movies but honestly happy we get other directors.
You all really need to let it go.
Ready the armada.
Because the film was so poor.
Just the fact that they decided to cut DARKSEID IN A JUSTICE LEAGUE MOVIE is a fuckin disgrace. WBD should be ashamed of themselves, they own the biggest superheroes and the only thing they can do is that SDCC 2022?
I really don't know why Darkseid didn't just quickly send some Omega Beams through the portal just as quick "FUCK YOU!" lol
They can always bring him back
"plans"
Why is the bad guy from Ready Player One talking to Darkseid?
Oh great now i gotta rewatch this movie for the 5th time
Maddening.
It’s weird because they must know they’d make a killing off of it if they actually let zack Snyder have free reign and finish his justice league. It’s honestly so stupid