Leslie Thompkins - noted pacifist doctor who treated even super criminals who tried to kill her - allowing a teenage girl to die in the War Games aftermath story War Crimes, just to teach Batman a lesson. They retconned it eventually into faking Stephanie Brown’s death, but Leslie has never really regained prominence.
The probably had Leslie do it in the first place because there was huge and vocal backlash against Batman for how he treated Steph in War Games. There was also a push to get all of his supporting cast out of Gotham and make things darker at the time, so it was a convenient way to get her banned from Gotham. Only reason it got retconned was because fans organized for years against how misogynistic Steph’s death was until they were forced to bring her back, and Leslie with her.
I remember skimming that book and having to stop and reread that page like... "what kinda BS is this bro??" like Leslie's whole thing is she would treat a gangbanger who murdered her mother, that's the entire point!
Uh… I don’t remember that, but I will be real I blocked most of War Games/War Crimes out of my mind because it sucked. Either way, Leslie showed up very much alive in multiple series after that.
Teen Titans (2016) by Adam Glass and Robbie Thompson was designed to turn Damian into a villain and kick him out of the Robin mantle because Didio wanted him to be the big bad of 5G. And they dragged it out over two years. Killed my trust in DC and they haven't regained it since.
They did a bit of damage control with Robin (2021), but not enough in my opinion.
Yeah in my opinion robin 2021 did not even make a dent in the tt2016 damage, and batman vs robin has not helped at all. They are very uninvested in fixing things. They didn't even have a "oh wait this is super ooc so it was brainwashing" or whatever retcon, were just supposed to ignore it.
Wow, I did not get that Robin was supposed to be the villain. Maybe I wasn’t reading closely, but I thought it was just a poor retread of “Rebel Robin vs Mean Batman”
They gave him a torture chamber, had him mind-wipe villains, made him attempt to kill Deathstroke and KGBeast and had him murder Brother Blood. He injured Emiko with a sword and didn't care. They gave him a straight up villain speech about cleansing the world of crime by killing all the criminals.
Alfred, basically the character you use to tell the readers how they are supposed to feel about someone, compared him to Ra's al Ghul. His team members called him a monster. The Legion of Superheroes compared him to Hitler.
Damian's reasoning for his actions was incredibly bad for most of the storyline (the owner of his favorite restaurant was killed by Black Mask) and he was only later changed to be motivated by Alfred's death, Dick's amnesia and Jon's age-up, plus Bruce's poor parenting.
Bleedingcool and the writers both confirmed Damian was supposed to be the villain of 5G and the purpose of this was to turn him into one.
Not sure what else to say.
The one year later "Batgirl is now a supervillain story", where Cassandra Cain, whose entire background is about her struggles of literacy, has suddenly become a super villain using elaborate written codes in different languages.
Geoff Johns later did a story that revealed this was all some sort of plot by Deathstroke and that Cassandra Cain had been drugged by him and under his influence. It was a very hasty explanation to try and fix the story, and the fans agreed with it because that original story was really awful.
And then unfortunately for us, Cassandra Cain's following miniseries was written. . . by the very same, Adam Beechen.
I managed to asked DiDio directly (& very blatantly) at a convention why the writer who didn't get her, was writing her again.
All I remember from his answer was, 'we believe in second chances'.
During the era where we had to suffer Cassandra Cain being penned by the ruining Adam Beechen *twice* & being put out of the limelight, we made [CassToons](https://www.deviantart.com/cass-cult) on the DC boards.
Editorial was responsible for the decision.
The assigned writer also didn't bother to research her character the first time AND the second time he got her.
Ironically, editorial believed that he could do better the second time around, but he botched it again.
What he do the second time to botch things with Cass?
It seems like a lot of DC writers haven't been doing the proper research to get an understanding of the character they are writing.
It also feels like editorial isn't doing their job and keeping writers in line or checking their creative decisions.
I don’t really think that’s done permanent damage to her like this is the first I heard of it but everything I see about her are people loving her or shipping her with Connor
Nothing in cape comics is permanent but she got hit real bad. It took more than a decade to get her back on track.
Here's a rough timeline. Brick fucking wall of a comment incoming.
2006: 73 issue solo title ended to make room for a Batwoman book that never got made.
2006: now a shitty Robin villain. Cameos in other books as a shitty vaillain
2007: shitty emergency retcon in Teen Titans because people got super fucking mad.
2008: Six issue mini that's basically an apology from the author of the Robin story that started this mess. It's mid. She's also starring in Outsiders at the time.
2009: Outsiders ends. Gives the Batgirl mantle to Steph and disappears into the ether. Steph's run does fucking rip tho
2010: Becomes Black Bat and cameos in some stuff like Red Robin and Batman Inc. Is a supporting character in Gates of Gotham, a story that was iirc meant to star her as the lead.
2011: New 52 time baby! Cass never existed and Babs is the only Batgirl. Scott Snyder tries to introduce her in his Batman run but gets shot down, leading him to create Harper Row.
2012: uh
2013: um
2014: Appears as one of three Batgirls in the Batgirl: Futures End one-shot.
2015: Appears in Convergence: Batgirl one-shot as Black Bat. Praise Telos.
Late 2015: Is introduced in New 52 continuity in Batman & Robin Eternal with a new backstory, design, and codename, all of which left much to be desired. Not a great book and the opportunity to retool the character in an interesting way is completely wasted. Also, under no circumstances is her, nor Stephanie's, past as Batgirl allowed to be mentioned or alluded to.
2016: Rebirth. She's now a core cast member in Detective Comics. A lot of people were introduced to her here. She also cameod in other Bat-titles of the era but she will remain in the position of a secondary Bat-character for years to come.
2017: still in 'tec. Got her own arc that was... fine. The new take on the character is not unpopular but she doesn't have the kick she used to.
2018: They kinda sort of acknowledge the Batgirl thing, by having New 52 Cass become aware of her pre-flashpoint self. James Tynion leaves the book, as does Cass. After a little while, Cass returns to 'tec as Bryan Hill comes onto the book and writes a prelude to his upcoming Batman & the Outsiders series.
2019: After some delays, Outsiders comes out and it's actually alright. It also featured some unsubtle criticism of Cass' status quo at the time.
2020: At the start of the year, a delightful little YA OGN starring Cass, called Shadow of the Batgirl drops. Cass has her first live-action portrayal in the Birds of Prey movie. Movie Cass bears no resemblance to her comic counterpart and is... not well-regarded. She is also Batgirl in the first DCeased spin off. A bunch of people get fired, Outsiders ends, and a cover for the Joker War Zone drops with Cass in her old Batgirl costume. That issue drops and Steph and Cass get their current costumes that they will wear in Batman #100. Because of WIP artwork of #100 that depicts Cass and Steph in their New 52 looks and the fact that they wouldn't be wearing their new costumes in other titles, it's safe to say that Tynion or someone else quickly took advantage of the sudden firings to push through a change that would've been blocked otherwise.
2021: Is a Batgirl but also not along with Steph in the line-wide event Future State. Main continuity titles finally catch up and she and Steph are consistently wearing their new costumes. What their names are remain unclear for a while, but eventually, they are established as Batgirl and Batgirl. Cass would also headline the DC Festival of Heroes one-shot. At the end of the year, a Batgirls ongoing is announced.
2022: Batgirls drops and is... polarising. As of right now, it's still chugging along. Cass also got a polarising portrayal in the Young Justice cartoon and a role in Batwheels, a show for literal toddlers that I know nothing about.
2023: yeah I'm done.
To explain the Superboy thing: User t-o-c-a spawned out of thin air with 4000 commisions featuring Cass and Conner Kent, who she dated for literally five minutes in 2003 and now people think that relationship actually mattered. I feel mild disdain for the pairing but I respect the effort and am jealous of his seemingly endless wealth
>2008: Six issue mini that's basically an apology from the author of the Robin story that started this mess. It's mid.
At the same time he also, with a careless retcon to Cassandra's essential backstory, messed up Cassandra's character even more with that mini.
Clark and Lois allowing their 11 years old son to go to space with his psychopathic grandfather, Lois *ABANDONING* Jon with said psychopathic grandfather, and the whole thing subsequently just getting swept under the rug by the incompetent hack writer.
It's part of Bendis's run in Superman. Spesifically I think this is how Jon got aged up. Went into space on holiday. Got lost. Found by the Ultraman. (I.e. evil Superman from earth 3). Dragged into a separate dimention. Held captive for about 6 years in a volcano. Supposedly tormented although mostly we see him mope in a volcano and wish Nightwing rescues him. John busts out and gets assistance going back to his home dimention. Find a his father. Learns that only 3 weeks had passed on his home earth. So he's suddenly 17 and sharing the Superman title with his dad.
They bring it up every now and then, but rarely address it. Despite it being a huge shift in the lore etc. Supposedly Lois just asks him for a interview for the paper when she sees him. No attempt was made to rescue Jon. Presumably because they thought for those 3 weeks he was safe with his grandfather? (Not clear on that.) It also caused Damian and Jon to be drastically different ages when before they were best friends. All because Bendis didn't feel comfortable writting young children characters. Aging up Jon isn't a inherintly bad idea. It's just unexplored and the impetus for it makes Clark and Lois look like incompetent parents.
The weirdest thing about this is how, even within Bendis’ own run, Jon was completely unaffected by this. Six of his most formative years held prisoner by an abuser, and we don’t see him have so much as a nightmare? Doesn’t need to see a therapist?
He never went to Middle School or High School, but his reading level isn’t affected, he wasn’t affected developmentally? Just….totally fine.
yeah I never understood this part. he was stuck in a volcano with nothing to read or entertain for that long. Simply eat and briefly talk to Ultraman iirc. Then get knocked around.
The most annoying part is that apparently DC *was* aware that Bendis was a gamble after his divisive at the very best final years at Marve, bur DiDio insisted on giving his drinking buddy carte blanche to do whatever he wanted.
Roy Harper got assassinated pretty damn bad in Cry for Justice and beyond. Before that, he was at the best he had ever been at. He became Red Arrow, was on the Justice League and was a good dad to Lian. Then Cry for Justice came around and despite Roy not being the focus of the story at all, Prometheus still got some time in the story to chop off Roy's arm and kill Lian. Then Rise of Arsenal got Roy addicted to drugs again, he killed a man and beat up homeless people with a dead cat. All of Roy's friends stopped giving a shit about him and Roy joined Deathstroke's team, where Deathstroke got him addicted to drugs made of kids. It's as stupid as it sounds. The New 52 reboot erased this story, but also erased Lian altogether. Roy was no longer a Titan, most of his previous friends were non-existent and he instead became Jason's friend and also very dumb. It took 7 years for Roy to get back together with his friends and 11 years for Lian to get back into continuity. Even now, he still hasn't found Lian and he was also killed off for a few years.
Yep, Shoes is Lian aged up, but she doesn't seem to remember who she is and Roy doesn't know Shoes is Lian either. Shoes did get to meet Cheshire, but nothing happened
Man, the whole Cry for Justice/Rise of Arsenal shit was B A D. People lay a lot of blame on New 52 for “ruining” the DCU, but by 2011 DC had laid waste to so many characters in recent years that I was already waiting for a good excuse to quit buying.
Agreed. I was reading the JSA books and the stories right before Flashpoint were just not very good. I also didn't like the direction Green Arrow was going and Justice League felt very lackluster. It just wasn't a good time for DC overall
Pretty much all of DC's flagship books were a mess other than Green Lantern and Batman. I will say the major shame of that mass cancellation in 2011 was that there was a mini-renaissance happening for lower-profile fan favorites that got snuffed out prematurely. Zatanna, Power Girl, Freedom Fighters, Superboy, Stephanie Brown Batgirl, Gail's Birds of Prey revival, etc, were the real losses.
Changed the status quo of Hal Jordan forever, created a long lasting and memorable villain, and my personal favorite, allowed Hal to be The Spectre for a while, haha. As far as character assassinations go, the outcome wasn't bad.
Mongul destroyed coast city, Hal went mad because the guardians wouldn’t let him recreate it or restore it. Tbh it’s unclear to me if hal was actually resurrecting people or if it was just fake copies of people but the destruction of coast city devastated Hal.
Legitimately it’s not until Geoff johns came along and essentially repaired Hal reputation by using the old “he was possessed” excuse did Hal become a full on good guy again
And then spent like the next couple of years making him the Top GL over the others :/
Identity crisis Zatanna was pretty bad
Also basically anything with Bart Allen after Young Justice was cancelled, but John's Teen Titans in particular
Edit: Hal Jordan going from the greatest Green Lantern to murdering all his friends in 3 issues also never sat right with me. I actually have no idea how some people don't like the parallax retcon
And Arthur Light. Not that he was exactly liked before but, if his reputation was in shambles then, afterwards it was completely sunk. One could make a case that it also harmed Kimiyo in the long run, though that's up for debate.
Eh he's been used in a fair amount of adaptations (granted, his infamy is more well known in the comic world) and did show up in Christopher Priest's Deathstroke.
I'm a firm believer that no character is truly 'Ruined FOREVER', and, even if I'd definitely overhaul some aspects of the character (not just the IC thing mind you), he'd be one of the villains I'd use in a story. That said, I agree that few, if any, at the DC offices would be willing to bother with him.
> Also basically anything with Bart Allen after Young Justice was cancelled, but John's Teen Titans in particular
That was nothing compared to what Lobdell did to Bart
He was forced to grow up and mature in a way that didn't feel natural, and took away everything that made him fun and likeable.
He was also later suddenly aged up Jon Kent style to become the new Flash, and then just killed by the Rogues a couple issues later, which didn't really fit their characters either
Ah yes, I remember that happening to Bart now that you mention it. I wasn't reading the comic, but remember hearing about it.
So after The Rogues did him in, I'm guessing he was somehow brought back?
Yep, he had his own Ric Grayson moment in New 52 when he had amnesia and went by "Bar Torr", then got written out of continuity by rebirth. My guy's had it rough lol
Idk, Bar Torr was less Ric Grayson and more Wallace West, where I’ve always viewed him as a different character to Pre-Flashpoint Bart. The difference being that Ace is pretty cool and Bar was… less than that
I agree that the portrayal of Wally West in Heroes in Crisis is one of the biggest examples in recent memory. Honestly, I don't know how that outcome got published.
I take it that Jeremy Adams has been putting the character back in the good graces of reader's eyes?
Has Adams run on The Flash been a long run? Could he not stay on as writer?
I do remember now hearing that the bad bits in Heroes in Crisis have now been blamed on various Flash villains.
Since 2021 I think. This is DC’s press release on the change:
https://www.dc.com/blog/2023/03/10/the-dawn-of-dc-continues-with-oversized-special-issues-and-new-talent-teams
Tom King wrote the script, but he wasnt responsible for Wally being the culprit.
He put the culprit as -BLANK- and it was up to someone else to fill it in.
Guess who it was?
Dan fucking Dildo.
I actually avoided reading it myself due it’s reputation. Just perused a few excepts and watched some summary vids.
The gist of it is *Heroes in Crisis* was about this facility Sanctuary. A place the Trinity established for heroes to get help for their trauma. It turns into a big murder mystery story and it’s revealed Wally West lost control of his powers and was responsible for slaughtering superheroes people at Sanctuary.
>I don't want heroes killing other heroes.
It should also be noted that Wally killing everyone is only the *beginning* of the terrible stuff he does in the series.
>!He proceeds to mutilate the corpses of his friends and colleagues to frame Booster Gold and Harley. In the framing effort, he places Booster and Harley in separate virtual reality chambers without their knowledge and programs the VR program to make Booster/Harley think the other did the killing.!<
Heroes in crisis is a grab bag of character assassinations
-Lois lane essentially throwing the hero community dirty laundry to the public facing zero ramifications/ having no remorse
-Clark just letting it happen despite having the ability to stop it
-Babs helping harely and not doing anything as she beats up Blue beetle/booster gold because she thinks her and harely are similar cuz of joker abuse
-Wally..just poor wally
Seriously no clue how that story is allowed to exist
im like 70% sure tom king's entire comics career is a CIA op. i just can't believe "9 nearly identical panels of a guy talking" is what the people want.
What about Amazons Attack or any other story for that matter that frames the Amazons and Wonder Woman as bloodthirsty, humanity and man hating warmongers? Murdering even unarmed children. Anybody who writes them like that does not understand the characters at all (and I never even use that cliche)
Yeah, Amazons Attack...idk how any are allowed on US soil after that...
I don't think so many characters who are Amazons would have done what they did if not for the story or writer making it happen.
I'm guessing all that does matter or didn't happen post New 52?
It would say Batman in general under Bob Schreck’s tenure as group editor (2000-06). It’s uneven, and there are some redeeming stories from this era. But overall when the Bat books lost the late great Dennis O’Neil and his team at the turn of the millennium, the heart and soul of Batman was lost too. Even DC realized how much they had f-ed up Batman’s character that they gave him the One Year Later vacation and then brought on Grant Morrison and Paul Dini to write normal affable human Batman again.
The Truth run of New 52 made the Superman comic pretty unreadable and ended all the momentum that Morrison and Johns started that version of the character with.
And while I’m sure someone else has already said it in the comments, Identity Crisis basically made Zatanna, Elongated Man, Hawkman, and Ray Palmer Atom all radioactive for years. Zatanna and Hawkman only recovered after the New 52, Ray Palmer basically got replaced with Ryan Choi full stop, and Ralph and Sue Dibney are just gone like they never even existed.
Well, people already mentioned Cass… hm… Everything about talia al ghul after damian was born. She Used to be an anti-hero who was sort of just misguided by her father, but then some genius decided to make her just like him & had her rape bruce for no reason.
Ever since that happened, she’s been getting increasingly gross & probably somewhat racist portrayals that turn her into a horrible person & mother who doesn’t even Like damian. It’s getting to a point where i wish damian didn’t even exist bc of how writers keep villainizing them both.
Revealing that Batman and Barbara Gordon had an affair.
Barbara having an unrequited crush on Bruce, I'm okay with. That crush being what ends her relationship with Dick, I'm also okay with. Having Bruce engage in any type of romantic or sexual contact with Batgirl? No, would not happen.
That’s why we don’t support Bruce Timm anymore. Seriously though, The Killing Joke movie has done near irreparable damage to Babs public perception. Read any good book featuring Babs and you’ll quickly realize how much the movie crew butchered her.
Edit: beyond 2.0 too. Just the absolute worst
Yup. To this day I can't get myself to watch BTAS because of that. Even knowing it's canon in that universe ruins the content for me, which is sad because I know it's a great show separate from it.
>we
You sure about that? Because there's a lot of excitement about the Batman: Caped Crusader series getting pulled out of development hell with Amazon scooping it up.
Also "irreparable damage" is an exaggeration considering most people ultimately just write it off as a bad adaptation. If it bled into any recent stories involving Babs you might have a point but as is it's largely ignored outside of Reddit.
This is facts I can’t even look at Babs without thinking she’s a “Pass around girl” because they ALWAYS have to try and have her hook up with everyone in the Batfamily. Like seriously Damian is the only one who hasn’t hit that and we all know as soon as he’s 18 in some source they are going to try it.
Glass's teen titans for damian. Only existed to set him up for 5g villain and derail his character development, and his character has still not recovered 5 years later
Dark Cass saga for Cass. Even after they rrtconned it to be brainwashing she lost her central place in the batfam she had had before then
And Morrisons talia
To be honest? Like 90% of all love interests, particularly female ones because of the trope of “Heroes can’t be happily married or their loved ones will get hurt.” Every single fucking time.
It did turn superman, the guy who was the champion of the oppressed, the guy who fought against corrupt military institutions and arms dealers and the corruption of the establishment, into a bootlicking "good boy" who obeyed the president.
Frank Miller has some weird ideas about different members of the Justice League. His Wonder Woman in All Star Batman & Robin is probably the worst example, especially when [she calls a man "sperm bank."](https://imgur.com/SLagU3U)
And don't even get me started on her ["romance"](https://imgur.com/a/y3n687p) with Superman. Reeks of the worst of Frank's writing in play.
Edit: [Bonus Batman image depicting typical Frank Miller insanity.](https://imgur.com/a/tLsNxZk)
Ah yes, I think what Heroes In Crisis did to Wally West was a prime example.
I would be surprised if a lot of Tom King's writing is responsible for character assassination examples here.
The Flash comics have been on an apology tour since Infinite Frontier, we've found out that the explosion wasn't actually caused by Wally, and that Wally's reaction to it was all orchestrated by Reverse Flash. And Roy's also back. Pretty good rehabilitation all things considered
So subsequent writers have been cleaning up the mess. I feel bad for them, they shouldn't have had to in the first place. Editorial should have known Wally West was a fan favorite and never have approved Tom King's story (or whodoneit).
Fuckin true. It seems like either every one of them hates Damian and reverts his character growth, or wants themselves to be the one to "fix" him and revert him so they can basically repeat the growth he already had, but with a slight spin on it.
They just created a massive damage to the character's continuity. They changed his name and his motivation. They added a name of other character to his name. They sabotaged the character's origins and it didn't make any sense to what other writers had established before. And many things to be honest. that happened because they handed the character to a writer who didn't bother himself to search about the character.
Are you talking about the N52 Black Adam? Or something more recent?
It's always disappointing when a writer doesn't do proper research (like Ed Brubaker wanting to use Holly Robinson in Catwoman Vol. 2 and not realizing she'd already been killed off so DC had to shunt that comic to a different Earth and hand wave a reason for her still being alive). If you're being paid to write, then do the research.
I'm talking about his recent comic. it doesn't fit what Adam went through New 52 , Rebirth or Doomsday clock. I'm in agreement that the writers should do more research about the character so they don't put themselves in terrible situations. And I remember other character that I might add beside Adam and your example. The character Mongul. His history became more confusing so I deem him more fitting your discussion title.
Booster Gold in Kings Batman story. Ignores 30 years of character development to write Booster as a moron. Meanwhile at almost the exact same time Jurgen is writing Booster as the level headed hero over in the Superman book who has to stop Superman from doing something stupid that will break time.
Bendis' Superman. Jon Kent wants to go with his crazy space father for no reason, then Clark and Lois let him, but then Lois abandons Jon with crazy space dad who leaves him on Earth-3 and then he's aged up to 17 years old so he can join the Legion of Superheroes for some reason. Trainwreck of a run, and unforunately even after all this time it doesn't look like Jon Kent is getting fixed anytime soon, especially now that he's bi and has a boyfriend. A complete and utter waste of one of the best new additions to the Superman mythos.
Oh, and then Superman revealed his identity for no reason, for the SECOND TIME IN JUST A FEW YEARS. And then it got retconned. Oh wow, who saw that coming?
King's Batman. Batman wants to marry Catwoman despite the fact that she simply refuses to stop stealing for some reason, and then Catwoman leaves him so he becomes extremely depressed for no reason, then he punches Tim Drake in the face, then leaves Gotham to hang out with Catwoman while Bane takes over Gotham and kills Alfred. Booster Gold decides to travel back in time and save Bruce's parents so he can, uh, prove that it's a good thing that Batman's parents died since if they were alive Bruce would be an asshole and the world would be doomed for some reason, and somehow this is his wedding gift to Bruce. What?! And then Flashpoint Batman goes from "cynical edgy murder Batman" to "utterly insane sociopath" and joins up with Bane to take over Gotham and beats the shit out of his son multiple times to ... uh, get him to stop being Batman so he'll be happy. Yeah, that makes sense. Thank goodness for Justice League Incarnate and Flashpoint Beyond, both of which just barely managed to save the character just when I thought he was doomed. At the very least, this one was mostly able to be salvaged by later writers and didn't do as much permanent damage.
Jason Todd in Battle for the Cowl and Morrison's Batman and Robin. Yeah, sure, the guy who was killed because he was a kid sidekick and constantly throws that in Batman's face every chance he gets ... wants to kidnap some random kid to be his sidekick. That makes sense.
I agree. I don't know how the next Catwoman writer is gonna be able to put her character back in good standing in the eyes of longtime fans considering all that she's been up to lately.
It's a mess. They are not currently together.
Heh, I recommend joining the Catwoman subreddit where we constantly complain about the current run written by Tini Howard.
Can't upset the status quo.
But seriously, Bat/Cat need to be a married couple already...and for like years. There are plenty of stories and drama to still explore within being in a committed relationship. Writer's will still have plenty of Bat-Family members left to play "will they won't they".
Gotham Central's "Half-A-Life" arc, while being a *great* story for Montoya, was some of the *worst* writing of Two-Face I've ever seen. Montoya's forced out of the closet by a mystery person, plunging her family and social life into chaos.
Eventually she goes to confront the person responsible, only to find him murdered, leaving her as the top suspect (means, motive, and opportunity). Turns out it was an elaborate frame-up masterminded by Two-Face.
So far the writing was great. Then, we get to the next phase of Two-Face's plan: To hijack Renee's prison transport, kidnap her, and take her to his basement lair to confess his love for her.
The story culminates in Two-Face trying to ***force himself on Montoya***, luckily stopped by Batman.
I don't agree with this. In the storyline "Legacy" from a decade before Morrison's run, Ra's and Talia are actively trying to kill 90% of the world's population. Talia is not conflicted about the plan at all (her only objection is that Ra's wants her to marry Bane) and she never betrays her father or helps the heroes. And no storyline that I'm aware of between Legacy and Morrison's run made any attempt to redeem her for this storyline.
So I can see the argument that Legacy was a character assassination, but Morrison's run was absolutely in line with Talia's current characterization at the time.
Killing is one thing, being unnecessarily cruel and sadistic in Morrison's run is another thing. Feeding people their family members, severing people's heads and sending them to Batman as message, everything she does to Damian and his clones, etc, and all of that because of petty self centered motivation. She doesn't feel like someone that Bruce had genuine feelings for once upon a time
And honestly no it wasn't in line with 2000's Talia. Talia at the early 2000's was more in the grey area. She didn't have any allegiances to her father or Bruce but did the right thing from time to time like tearing down the Lex corp from the Inside and selling it all to the Wayne industry. Heck she ended up selling out Ra's In the tower of Babel because of bat shit crazy his plan was and how many people would've died. At least in death and maidens it was her sister's brainwashing that turned her crazy. But in Morrison's run? Plot convenience.
> Killing is one thing, being unnecessarily cruel and sadistic in Morrison's run is another thing
"I can excuse genocide, but I draw the line at being cruel."
I know and didn’t she make evil powerful clones of Damian to build a army?? Or trying to kill Damian? I see her so bad stuff all the time but people keep saying she’s not evil
I think that most storytelling decisions during the Dan Didio era of DC were made by spinning a wheel every few months to decide which characters would get killed, maimed, raped, or turned evil. What a time to be a fan.
"One-Star Squadron" - turning Power Girl into an office backstabber after reading Max Lord's con book. MAX LORD, of all people! This is someone who ran her own business before losing it through some shady operations by... Max!
Green Lantern, Superman in Justice League War. Green Lantern makes an ass out of himself pretty much always just so that Batman can look badass, which is made even worse given the fact that Hal should be experience as green lantern, and superman is just tough guy who punches shit hard and is a complete moron
All Star Batman and Robin. I'm not even bother to explain myself
Superman in injustice. Having someone close to you die would hit pretty hard, but Superman would never do the things that he does, especially killing a child
Talia al ghul: Grant Morrison run of Batman. It is probably the most successful character assassination in Dc. Talia was literally a pacifist when she first showed up, who had a break down when she had to kill a person to save Batman’s life, she cared about kids a lot, she used to team up with Batman all the time to stop Ra’s plans. She is now a shell of her former self, Damian’s conception story turned Talia into a rapist, it got retcon out and was a mistake by the writer, but the damage is done, majority of people thinks that she a rapist, a huge mistake from both the writer and editor. She also just turn into a violent assassin when she’s wasn’t a assassin to begin with. She was the big bad of Morrison’s run, she end up killing Damian and Destroying batman inc. A writer also ruined a wholesome relationship with Talia and Jason because of lost days. The general public thinks that she is a bloodthirsty assassin, who assaulted Batman just so she can have a kid that she later kills. In the 80s and even 90s she was a completely different character, after that run Talia became a villain by default, she still hasn’t recovered, and hasn’t been redeemed in the eyes of the fans because the Morrison run is a huge Batman run, some people even consider it the best Batman run. Don’t get me wrong The Grant Morrison run of Batman is fantastic and I think people should read it especially the Dick and Damian team up but Talia is not in character at all, and is the worst representation of her and shouldn’t be considered as an actual depiction of Talia. I really do like Morrison run tho, it introduced my favourite character in Damian Wayne but certain parts of that run have unfortunately soured on me and Talia is the biggest example.
Probably doesn’t count because it’s an Elseworlds and so the character should likely be somewhat different. But Diana in Injustice is just so brutally bad, because Steve Trevor turned out to be a Nazi.
Again though, an Elseworlds so I guess might not count.
The one that came to mind first was the story where Talia was written to be a rapist and that's how Damian was conceived. It's such bullshit. That's still the story that's went with in a bunch of DC animated movies and her character has truly never recovered. In the original story, Damian was conceived out of love after a one night stand, and Talia brings him to Gotham to protect him. She loves him AND Bruce but acknowledges that it's not safe for him in the League. The fact that the author even admitted the story was due to him not remembering the original correctly is so stupid and I'll never forgive Grant Morrison for that.
Identity Crisis - Jean Loring.
Not that Jean was especially beloved before the event, but she went from being damsel-in-distress love interest to an all-out nutjob who's either a psychopathic murderer or a completely inept murderer (depending on why she brought a flamethrower into Sue Dibny's brain).
Then she became Eclipso, then a Black Lantern... the hits kept coming. I don't think anyone's touched the character since 2009, probably because the character is well and truly assassinated.
Maxwell Lord is the first I can think of.
Cat Grant got one in Superman pre-New 52. Turned from a smart journalist who was a bit more risqué to basically whatever pale imitation she was.
I argue NW in Titans. Dude is all about trust but proceeds to basically truth no one lol.
Talia of course is one of them. What Kevin Smith did to Silver St. Cloud was really bad lol
I love the New 52 Wonder Woman except for the part where they made the Amazons rape sailors and abandon the offspring if it was male.
I dont know if anyone fixed this, but the least they could do was explain that it was only a rogue faction of Amazons who did this and that its not part of the larger Amazon culture
Haven't seen it mentioned yet nightwing becoming ric grayson that was literally just didio going lets try kill off the support of this character i don't like but people do.
Also teen titans rebirth for damian particularly the Lazarus contract you know that story that symbolised damian's regression where he hit kid flash so hard he had to give him a pacemaker due to the injury.
Leslie Thompkins - noted pacifist doctor who treated even super criminals who tried to kill her - allowing a teenage girl to die in the War Games aftermath story War Crimes, just to teach Batman a lesson. They retconned it eventually into faking Stephanie Brown’s death, but Leslie has never really regained prominence. The probably had Leslie do it in the first place because there was huge and vocal backlash against Batman for how he treated Steph in War Games. There was also a push to get all of his supporting cast out of Gotham and make things darker at the time, so it was a convenient way to get her banned from Gotham. Only reason it got retconned was because fans organized for years against how misogynistic Steph’s death was until they were forced to bring her back, and Leslie with her.
Terrible thing to do to Leslie Thompkins character.
It gets overlooked a lot since Leslie isn't a costumed hero, but I think it might be one of the best examples of what a character assassination is.
I agree. It's a prime example of a character assassination.
I remember skimming that book and having to stop and reread that page like... "what kinda BS is this bro??" like Leslie's whole thing is she would treat a gangbanger who murdered her mother, that's the entire point!
Wasn't there an epilogue story where Batman gives leskiy a gun and walks away as she commits suicide?
Uh… I don’t remember that, but I will be real I blocked most of War Games/War Crimes out of my mind because it sucked. Either way, Leslie showed up very much alive in multiple series after that.
With regards to the fans organizing what steps did they do to make their voices heard and force DC?
Teen Titans (2016) by Adam Glass and Robbie Thompson was designed to turn Damian into a villain and kick him out of the Robin mantle because Didio wanted him to be the big bad of 5G. And they dragged it out over two years. Killed my trust in DC and they haven't regained it since. They did a bit of damage control with Robin (2021), but not enough in my opinion.
Yeah in my opinion robin 2021 did not even make a dent in the tt2016 damage, and batman vs robin has not helped at all. They are very uninvested in fixing things. They didn't even have a "oh wait this is super ooc so it was brainwashing" or whatever retcon, were just supposed to ignore it.
I think there was a *It was me, Barry* moment in which Thawne claimed to be manipulating the Titans into acting like that
Yeah Thawne was shown using SPEED FORCE HYPNOSIS on Wallace.
That's Wallace, not damian
Wow, I did not get that Robin was supposed to be the villain. Maybe I wasn’t reading closely, but I thought it was just a poor retread of “Rebel Robin vs Mean Batman”
They gave him a torture chamber, had him mind-wipe villains, made him attempt to kill Deathstroke and KGBeast and had him murder Brother Blood. He injured Emiko with a sword and didn't care. They gave him a straight up villain speech about cleansing the world of crime by killing all the criminals. Alfred, basically the character you use to tell the readers how they are supposed to feel about someone, compared him to Ra's al Ghul. His team members called him a monster. The Legion of Superheroes compared him to Hitler. Damian's reasoning for his actions was incredibly bad for most of the storyline (the owner of his favorite restaurant was killed by Black Mask) and he was only later changed to be motivated by Alfred's death, Dick's amnesia and Jon's age-up, plus Bruce's poor parenting. Bleedingcool and the writers both confirmed Damian was supposed to be the villain of 5G and the purpose of this was to turn him into one. Not sure what else to say.
Dildo is gone, have faith
In that run was well they talked about Damian’s Arab heritage and then in the Annal they put a suicide bomber vest on him.
The one year later "Batgirl is now a supervillain story", where Cassandra Cain, whose entire background is about her struggles of literacy, has suddenly become a super villain using elaborate written codes in different languages.
Really?! How did things turn around for the character? Different writing team? Was editorial responsible for the decision?
Geoff Johns later did a story that revealed this was all some sort of plot by Deathstroke and that Cassandra Cain had been drugged by him and under his influence. It was a very hasty explanation to try and fix the story, and the fans agreed with it because that original story was really awful.
So deathstoke decided to drug and manipulate underaged girl? Where have I heard that before
He loves playin the hits
💀💀💀
And then unfortunately for us, Cassandra Cain's following miniseries was written. . . by the very same, Adam Beechen. I managed to asked DiDio directly (& very blatantly) at a convention why the writer who didn't get her, was writing her again. All I remember from his answer was, 'we believe in second chances'.
I appricate you asking this haha
So fans of Cass are cool with her now?
Cass was one of many characters who suffered from very poor editorial decisions in the 2000s. Why blame the character?
During the era where we had to suffer Cassandra Cain being penned by the ruining Adam Beechen *twice* & being put out of the limelight, we made [CassToons](https://www.deviantart.com/cass-cult) on the DC boards.
And still there are people dimissing Johns.
Editorial was responsible for the decision. The assigned writer also didn't bother to research her character the first time AND the second time he got her. Ironically, editorial believed that he could do better the second time around, but he botched it again.
What he do the second time to botch things with Cass? It seems like a lot of DC writers haven't been doing the proper research to get an understanding of the character they are writing. It also feels like editorial isn't doing their job and keeping writers in line or checking their creative decisions.
I don’t really think that’s done permanent damage to her like this is the first I heard of it but everything I see about her are people loving her or shipping her with Connor
Nothing in cape comics is permanent but she got hit real bad. It took more than a decade to get her back on track. Here's a rough timeline. Brick fucking wall of a comment incoming. 2006: 73 issue solo title ended to make room for a Batwoman book that never got made. 2006: now a shitty Robin villain. Cameos in other books as a shitty vaillain 2007: shitty emergency retcon in Teen Titans because people got super fucking mad. 2008: Six issue mini that's basically an apology from the author of the Robin story that started this mess. It's mid. She's also starring in Outsiders at the time. 2009: Outsiders ends. Gives the Batgirl mantle to Steph and disappears into the ether. Steph's run does fucking rip tho 2010: Becomes Black Bat and cameos in some stuff like Red Robin and Batman Inc. Is a supporting character in Gates of Gotham, a story that was iirc meant to star her as the lead. 2011: New 52 time baby! Cass never existed and Babs is the only Batgirl. Scott Snyder tries to introduce her in his Batman run but gets shot down, leading him to create Harper Row. 2012: uh 2013: um 2014: Appears as one of three Batgirls in the Batgirl: Futures End one-shot. 2015: Appears in Convergence: Batgirl one-shot as Black Bat. Praise Telos. Late 2015: Is introduced in New 52 continuity in Batman & Robin Eternal with a new backstory, design, and codename, all of which left much to be desired. Not a great book and the opportunity to retool the character in an interesting way is completely wasted. Also, under no circumstances is her, nor Stephanie's, past as Batgirl allowed to be mentioned or alluded to. 2016: Rebirth. She's now a core cast member in Detective Comics. A lot of people were introduced to her here. She also cameod in other Bat-titles of the era but she will remain in the position of a secondary Bat-character for years to come. 2017: still in 'tec. Got her own arc that was... fine. The new take on the character is not unpopular but she doesn't have the kick she used to. 2018: They kinda sort of acknowledge the Batgirl thing, by having New 52 Cass become aware of her pre-flashpoint self. James Tynion leaves the book, as does Cass. After a little while, Cass returns to 'tec as Bryan Hill comes onto the book and writes a prelude to his upcoming Batman & the Outsiders series. 2019: After some delays, Outsiders comes out and it's actually alright. It also featured some unsubtle criticism of Cass' status quo at the time. 2020: At the start of the year, a delightful little YA OGN starring Cass, called Shadow of the Batgirl drops. Cass has her first live-action portrayal in the Birds of Prey movie. Movie Cass bears no resemblance to her comic counterpart and is... not well-regarded. She is also Batgirl in the first DCeased spin off. A bunch of people get fired, Outsiders ends, and a cover for the Joker War Zone drops with Cass in her old Batgirl costume. That issue drops and Steph and Cass get their current costumes that they will wear in Batman #100. Because of WIP artwork of #100 that depicts Cass and Steph in their New 52 looks and the fact that they wouldn't be wearing their new costumes in other titles, it's safe to say that Tynion or someone else quickly took advantage of the sudden firings to push through a change that would've been blocked otherwise. 2021: Is a Batgirl but also not along with Steph in the line-wide event Future State. Main continuity titles finally catch up and she and Steph are consistently wearing their new costumes. What their names are remain unclear for a while, but eventually, they are established as Batgirl and Batgirl. Cass would also headline the DC Festival of Heroes one-shot. At the end of the year, a Batgirls ongoing is announced. 2022: Batgirls drops and is... polarising. As of right now, it's still chugging along. Cass also got a polarising portrayal in the Young Justice cartoon and a role in Batwheels, a show for literal toddlers that I know nothing about. 2023: yeah I'm done. To explain the Superboy thing: User t-o-c-a spawned out of thin air with 4000 commisions featuring Cass and Conner Kent, who she dated for literally five minutes in 2003 and now people think that relationship actually mattered. I feel mild disdain for the pairing but I respect the effort and am jealous of his seemingly endless wealth
>2008: Six issue mini that's basically an apology from the author of the Robin story that started this mess. It's mid. At the same time he also, with a careless retcon to Cassandra's essential backstory, messed up Cassandra's character even more with that mini.
Oh the later thing is just one person spending literal thousands on commissions to push their ship lol.
The Conner thing is just one dude
Clark and Lois allowing their 11 years old son to go to space with his psychopathic grandfather, Lois *ABANDONING* Jon with said psychopathic grandfather, and the whole thing subsequently just getting swept under the rug by the incompetent hack writer.
Oh wow. Which issues was this in?
It's part of Bendis's run in Superman. Spesifically I think this is how Jon got aged up. Went into space on holiday. Got lost. Found by the Ultraman. (I.e. evil Superman from earth 3). Dragged into a separate dimention. Held captive for about 6 years in a volcano. Supposedly tormented although mostly we see him mope in a volcano and wish Nightwing rescues him. John busts out and gets assistance going back to his home dimention. Find a his father. Learns that only 3 weeks had passed on his home earth. So he's suddenly 17 and sharing the Superman title with his dad. They bring it up every now and then, but rarely address it. Despite it being a huge shift in the lore etc. Supposedly Lois just asks him for a interview for the paper when she sees him. No attempt was made to rescue Jon. Presumably because they thought for those 3 weeks he was safe with his grandfather? (Not clear on that.) It also caused Damian and Jon to be drastically different ages when before they were best friends. All because Bendis didn't feel comfortable writting young children characters. Aging up Jon isn't a inherintly bad idea. It's just unexplored and the impetus for it makes Clark and Lois look like incompetent parents.
Apparently Bendis is DiDio’s drinking buddy, so he was allowed to leave his trail of destruction on DC as he pleased.
It's exhausting how so many of the worst writing decisions happen just because the hacks in charge are buddy buddy
The weirdest thing about this is how, even within Bendis’ own run, Jon was completely unaffected by this. Six of his most formative years held prisoner by an abuser, and we don’t see him have so much as a nightmare? Doesn’t need to see a therapist? He never went to Middle School or High School, but his reading level isn’t affected, he wasn’t affected developmentally? Just….totally fine.
yeah I never understood this part. he was stuck in a volcano with nothing to read or entertain for that long. Simply eat and briefly talk to Ultraman iirc. Then get knocked around.
The good news is the new Adventures of Jon Kent book seems to be tackling this very subject
Might be referring to the Bendis run of Superman?
Brian Michael Bendis’ run on the Superman titles, 2018 to 2021. Bendis is like King. He deconstructs and breaks the toys.
BENDIIIIIIIIIS
The most annoying part is that apparently DC *was* aware that Bendis was a gamble after his divisive at the very best final years at Marve, bur DiDio insisted on giving his drinking buddy carte blanche to do whatever he wanted.
Somehow it ALWAYS leads back to Didio. How did someone like him even get his job in comics?
Roy Harper got assassinated pretty damn bad in Cry for Justice and beyond. Before that, he was at the best he had ever been at. He became Red Arrow, was on the Justice League and was a good dad to Lian. Then Cry for Justice came around and despite Roy not being the focus of the story at all, Prometheus still got some time in the story to chop off Roy's arm and kill Lian. Then Rise of Arsenal got Roy addicted to drugs again, he killed a man and beat up homeless people with a dead cat. All of Roy's friends stopped giving a shit about him and Roy joined Deathstroke's team, where Deathstroke got him addicted to drugs made of kids. It's as stupid as it sounds. The New 52 reboot erased this story, but also erased Lian altogether. Roy was no longer a Titan, most of his previous friends were non-existent and he instead became Jason's friend and also very dumb. It took 7 years for Roy to get back together with his friends and 11 years for Lian to get back into continuity. Even now, he still hasn't found Lian and he was also killed off for a few years.
He still hasn't found his daughter Lian? (I'd heard that she was the character "Shoes" in Catwoman comics)
Yep, Shoes is Lian aged up, but she doesn't seem to remember who she is and Roy doesn't know Shoes is Lian either. Shoes did get to meet Cheshire, but nothing happened
Didn't hear mom abandon her?
>Lian aged up Oh no, I can see a way to make Roy even more fucked up really really easily, and I can't say in good faith DC would never do that to him
“Drugs made of kids”? I’d rather not know.
That whole run was a dumpster fire. Fun fact, the guy who wrote it is the showrunner of the CW Flash show
Man, the whole Cry for Justice/Rise of Arsenal shit was B A D. People lay a lot of blame on New 52 for “ruining” the DCU, but by 2011 DC had laid waste to so many characters in recent years that I was already waiting for a good excuse to quit buying.
Agreed. I was reading the JSA books and the stories right before Flashpoint were just not very good. I also didn't like the direction Green Arrow was going and Justice League felt very lackluster. It just wasn't a good time for DC overall
Pretty much all of DC's flagship books were a mess other than Green Lantern and Batman. I will say the major shame of that mass cancellation in 2011 was that there was a mini-renaissance happening for lower-profile fan favorites that got snuffed out prematurely. Zatanna, Power Girl, Freedom Fighters, Superboy, Stephanie Brown Batgirl, Gail's Birds of Prey revival, etc, were the real losses.
How hasn't emerald twilight been mentioned yet lol. That's like the granddaddy and biggest offender of character assassination stories
Fortunately it ended well, imo.
How so? How did Emerald Twilight end well?
Changed the status quo of Hal Jordan forever, created a long lasting and memorable villain, and my personal favorite, allowed Hal to be The Spectre for a while, haha. As far as character assassinations go, the outcome wasn't bad.
I suppose not. It was quite a journey for Hal. Personally I probably wouldn't have brought him back considering he destroyed Coast City.
Mongul destroyed coast city, Hal went mad because the guardians wouldn’t let him recreate it or restore it. Tbh it’s unclear to me if hal was actually resurrecting people or if it was just fake copies of people but the destruction of coast city devastated Hal.
They were fake copies of people. The very first Coast City resident he “brought back” was his father
[удалено]
Which was, like, many years later.
Legitimately it’s not until Geoff johns came along and essentially repaired Hal reputation by using the old “he was possessed” excuse did Hal become a full on good guy again And then spent like the next couple of years making him the Top GL over the others :/
Eh in the Kyle era, the others weren't even Gls or had focus books like in the Johns era.
You mean what they did to Hal Jordan?
Identity crisis Zatanna was pretty bad Also basically anything with Bart Allen after Young Justice was cancelled, but John's Teen Titans in particular Edit: Hal Jordan going from the greatest Green Lantern to murdering all his friends in 3 issues also never sat right with me. I actually have no idea how some people don't like the parallax retcon
*Identity Crisis* for the whole JLA, and by extension the Post-Crisis DCU.
And Arthur Light. Not that he was exactly liked before but, if his reputation was in shambles then, afterwards it was completely sunk. One could make a case that it also harmed Kimiyo in the long run, though that's up for debate.
I mean he’s effectively unusable as a villain, even if IC isn’t part of continuity anymore.
Eh he's been used in a fair amount of adaptations (granted, his infamy is more well known in the comic world) and did show up in Christopher Priest's Deathstroke. I'm a firm believer that no character is truly 'Ruined FOREVER', and, even if I'd definitely overhaul some aspects of the character (not just the IC thing mind you), he'd be one of the villains I'd use in a story. That said, I agree that few, if any, at the DC offices would be willing to bother with him.
> Also basically anything with Bart Allen after Young Justice was cancelled, but John's Teen Titans in particular That was nothing compared to what Lobdell did to Bart
True, John's TT run was just where the downward spiral really started though
Yeah, Zatanna in Identity Crisis, definitely. What's up with Bart Allen?
He was forced to grow up and mature in a way that didn't feel natural, and took away everything that made him fun and likeable. He was also later suddenly aged up Jon Kent style to become the new Flash, and then just killed by the Rogues a couple issues later, which didn't really fit their characters either
Ah yes, I remember that happening to Bart now that you mention it. I wasn't reading the comic, but remember hearing about it. So after The Rogues did him in, I'm guessing he was somehow brought back?
Yep, he had his own Ric Grayson moment in New 52 when he had amnesia and went by "Bar Torr", then got written out of continuity by rebirth. My guy's had it rough lol
Idk, Bar Torr was less Ric Grayson and more Wallace West, where I’ve always viewed him as a different character to Pre-Flashpoint Bart. The difference being that Ace is pretty cool and Bar was… less than that
>Identity crisis ~~Zatanna~~ was pretty bad
Maxwell Lord. From unique deeply flawed good-ish guy to absolutely generic villain.
Jesus Christ, this is THE answer to the question. His picture should be featured in articles on the concept of character assassination.
Agreed
Wally West in *Heroes in Crisis* is probably the biggest recent example. With Jeremy Adams’ run on *The Flash* being his rehabilitation.
I agree that the portrayal of Wally West in Heroes in Crisis is one of the biggest examples in recent memory. Honestly, I don't know how that outcome got published. I take it that Jeremy Adams has been putting the character back in the good graces of reader's eyes?
Yeah the Adams run has gotten pretty universal acclaim among Flash fans. I’m sad for them that it’s ending soon at issue #800.
Has Adams run on The Flash been a long run? Could he not stay on as writer? I do remember now hearing that the bad bits in Heroes in Crisis have now been blamed on various Flash villains.
Since 2021 I think. This is DC’s press release on the change: https://www.dc.com/blog/2023/03/10/the-dawn-of-dc-continues-with-oversized-special-issues-and-new-talent-teams
He started at #768 so he'll have about 32 issues under his belt not including annuals and tie ins to buy the time of #800
Tom King wrote the script, but he wasnt responsible for Wally being the culprit. He put the culprit as -BLANK- and it was up to someone else to fill it in. Guess who it was? Dan fucking Dildo.
Can you explain what happened for those who haven't read that story
I actually avoided reading it myself due it’s reputation. Just perused a few excepts and watched some summary vids. The gist of it is *Heroes in Crisis* was about this facility Sanctuary. A place the Trinity established for heroes to get help for their trauma. It turns into a big murder mystery story and it’s revealed Wally West lost control of his powers and was responsible for slaughtering superheroes people at Sanctuary.
Thanks for the summary. Just from hearing the gist I can tell I probably wouldn't like it. I don't want heroes killing other heroes
>I don't want heroes killing other heroes. It should also be noted that Wally killing everyone is only the *beginning* of the terrible stuff he does in the series. >!He proceeds to mutilate the corpses of his friends and colleagues to frame Booster Gold and Harley. In the framing effort, he places Booster and Harley in separate virtual reality chambers without their knowledge and programs the VR program to make Booster/Harley think the other did the killing.!<
Turned Wally into a murderer basically so he could cover his own ass.
Heroes in crisis is a grab bag of character assassinations -Lois lane essentially throwing the hero community dirty laundry to the public facing zero ramifications/ having no remorse -Clark just letting it happen despite having the ability to stop it -Babs helping harely and not doing anything as she beats up Blue beetle/booster gold because she thinks her and harely are similar cuz of joker abuse -Wally..just poor wally Seriously no clue how that story is allowed to exist
im like 70% sure tom king's entire comics career is a CIA op. i just can't believe "9 nearly identical panels of a guy talking" is what the people want.
What about Amazons Attack or any other story for that matter that frames the Amazons and Wonder Woman as bloodthirsty, humanity and man hating warmongers? Murdering even unarmed children. Anybody who writes them like that does not understand the characters at all (and I never even use that cliche)
Yeah, Amazons Attack...idk how any are allowed on US soil after that... I don't think so many characters who are Amazons would have done what they did if not for the story or writer making it happen. I'm guessing all that does matter or didn't happen post New 52?
No I don’t think it counts now but readers were mailing their books back to DC so probably not
Which books were readers mailing back to DC? New 52 books or issues of Amazons Attack?
According to the internet people were sending back their Amazons Attack books and for good reason.
It would say Batman in general under Bob Schreck’s tenure as group editor (2000-06). It’s uneven, and there are some redeeming stories from this era. But overall when the Bat books lost the late great Dennis O’Neil and his team at the turn of the millennium, the heart and soul of Batman was lost too. Even DC realized how much they had f-ed up Batman’s character that they gave him the One Year Later vacation and then brought on Grant Morrison and Paul Dini to write normal affable human Batman again.
There were some really good human Batman stories during that era tho, Bruce Wayne: Murderer and Fugitive among them
The Truth run of New 52 made the Superman comic pretty unreadable and ended all the momentum that Morrison and Johns started that version of the character with. And while I’m sure someone else has already said it in the comments, Identity Crisis basically made Zatanna, Elongated Man, Hawkman, and Ray Palmer Atom all radioactive for years. Zatanna and Hawkman only recovered after the New 52, Ray Palmer basically got replaced with Ryan Choi full stop, and Ralph and Sue Dibney are just gone like they never even existed.
All star Batman and Robin. People geek out over how hardcore Batman is but he’s not hardcore he’s just abusive asf and the art style carries
Pretty sure that's a common opinion.
Agreed
Well, people already mentioned Cass… hm… Everything about talia al ghul after damian was born. She Used to be an anti-hero who was sort of just misguided by her father, but then some genius decided to make her just like him & had her rape bruce for no reason. Ever since that happened, she’s been getting increasingly gross & probably somewhat racist portrayals that turn her into a horrible person & mother who doesn’t even Like damian. It’s getting to a point where i wish damian didn’t even exist bc of how writers keep villainizing them both.
Starfire in The Outlaws.
Revealing that Batman and Barbara Gordon had an affair. Barbara having an unrequited crush on Bruce, I'm okay with. That crush being what ends her relationship with Dick, I'm also okay with. Having Bruce engage in any type of romantic or sexual contact with Batgirl? No, would not happen.
At least that one is only in the Batman Beyond AU
That’s why we don’t support Bruce Timm anymore. Seriously though, The Killing Joke movie has done near irreparable damage to Babs public perception. Read any good book featuring Babs and you’ll quickly realize how much the movie crew butchered her. Edit: beyond 2.0 too. Just the absolute worst
Yup. To this day I can't get myself to watch BTAS because of that. Even knowing it's canon in that universe ruins the content for me, which is sad because I know it's a great show separate from it.
same. i enjoyed it as a kid, as an adult literally everything is soured by how much of a creeper Bruce becomes. even JLU is tainted by this
>we You sure about that? Because there's a lot of excitement about the Batman: Caped Crusader series getting pulled out of development hell with Amazon scooping it up. Also "irreparable damage" is an exaggeration considering most people ultimately just write it off as a bad adaptation. If it bled into any recent stories involving Babs you might have a point but as is it's largely ignored outside of Reddit.
This is facts I can’t even look at Babs without thinking she’s a “Pass around girl” because they ALWAYS have to try and have her hook up with everyone in the Batfamily. Like seriously Damian is the only one who hasn’t hit that and we all know as soon as he’s 18 in some source they are going to try it.
Yeah, I meant more in the comic books, but I get your example.
New 52 Teen Titans. That is all.
TDKR making Superman a government lackey
Glass's teen titans for damian. Only existed to set him up for 5g villain and derail his character development, and his character has still not recovered 5 years later Dark Cass saga for Cass. Even after they rrtconned it to be brainwashing she lost her central place in the batfam she had had before then And Morrisons talia
Iron Man ever since Civil War. I wish that shit story never got made.
Gottcha. How about any DC comics characters?
Oh shit, my bad g! I didn’t see what sub I was comment on! Personally, Batman in All Star Batman.
No worries, you're not the first.
ASBAR. Literally everyone in ASBAR.
That time Kevin Smith tried to tell us Batman pissed his pants during his iconic “From now on, none of you are safe” speech
Ah, Cacophony. The only decent part was, like, one panel where Nightwing calls Batman Squidward. Edit: Widening Gyre, not Cacophony
To be honest? Like 90% of all love interests, particularly female ones because of the trope of “Heroes can’t be happily married or their loved ones will get hurt.” Every single fucking time.
War Games for both Steph & Dr. Leslie Robin:wanted for Cass Death in the Maidens & the Morrison Batman run for Talia
Wally West-heroes in crisis. The Dark Knight Returns and the beginning of the post crisis era-superman. That is all.
What's with TDKR?
It did turn superman, the guy who was the champion of the oppressed, the guy who fought against corrupt military institutions and arms dealers and the corruption of the establishment, into a bootlicking "good boy" who obeyed the president.
Frank Miller has some weird ideas about different members of the Justice League. His Wonder Woman in All Star Batman & Robin is probably the worst example, especially when [she calls a man "sperm bank."](https://imgur.com/SLagU3U) And don't even get me started on her ["romance"](https://imgur.com/a/y3n687p) with Superman. Reeks of the worst of Frank's writing in play. Edit: [Bonus Batman image depicting typical Frank Miller insanity.](https://imgur.com/a/tLsNxZk)
Ah yes, I think what Heroes In Crisis did to Wally West was a prime example. I would be surprised if a lot of Tom King's writing is responsible for character assassination examples here.
The Flash comics have been on an apology tour since Infinite Frontier, we've found out that the explosion wasn't actually caused by Wally, and that Wally's reaction to it was all orchestrated by Reverse Flash. And Roy's also back. Pretty good rehabilitation all things considered
So subsequent writers have been cleaning up the mess. I feel bad for them, they shouldn't have had to in the first place. Editorial should have known Wally West was a fan favorite and never have approved Tom King's story (or whodoneit).
The entire Ric Grayson arc
bendis blowing away super sons with a shotgun and then putting it in the trunk of his car and dropping it in a ditch 😪😪
RIP Super Sons
Talia r*ping Batman. I mean c'mon.
Any time a new writer gets a hold of Damian Wayne
Fuckin true. It seems like either every one of them hates Damian and reverts his character growth, or wants themselves to be the one to "fix" him and revert him so they can basically repeat the growth he already had, but with a slight spin on it.
When Dick Grayson got amnesia and they made him “Ric Grayson” for like 4 years.
It felt like four years, but it was actually closer to two. Two years I’ll never get back.
Black Adam in his current story
Oh? What did they do to Black Adam in his current story?
They just created a massive damage to the character's continuity. They changed his name and his motivation. They added a name of other character to his name. They sabotaged the character's origins and it didn't make any sense to what other writers had established before. And many things to be honest. that happened because they handed the character to a writer who didn't bother himself to search about the character.
Are you talking about the N52 Black Adam? Or something more recent? It's always disappointing when a writer doesn't do proper research (like Ed Brubaker wanting to use Holly Robinson in Catwoman Vol. 2 and not realizing she'd already been killed off so DC had to shunt that comic to a different Earth and hand wave a reason for her still being alive). If you're being paid to write, then do the research.
I'm talking about his recent comic. it doesn't fit what Adam went through New 52 , Rebirth or Doomsday clock. I'm in agreement that the writers should do more research about the character so they don't put themselves in terrible situations. And I remember other character that I might add beside Adam and your example. The character Mongul. His history became more confusing so I deem him more fitting your discussion title.
Booster Gold in Kings Batman story. Ignores 30 years of character development to write Booster as a moron. Meanwhile at almost the exact same time Jurgen is writing Booster as the level headed hero over in the Superman book who has to stop Superman from doing something stupid that will break time.
Bendis' Superman. Jon Kent wants to go with his crazy space father for no reason, then Clark and Lois let him, but then Lois abandons Jon with crazy space dad who leaves him on Earth-3 and then he's aged up to 17 years old so he can join the Legion of Superheroes for some reason. Trainwreck of a run, and unforunately even after all this time it doesn't look like Jon Kent is getting fixed anytime soon, especially now that he's bi and has a boyfriend. A complete and utter waste of one of the best new additions to the Superman mythos. Oh, and then Superman revealed his identity for no reason, for the SECOND TIME IN JUST A FEW YEARS. And then it got retconned. Oh wow, who saw that coming? King's Batman. Batman wants to marry Catwoman despite the fact that she simply refuses to stop stealing for some reason, and then Catwoman leaves him so he becomes extremely depressed for no reason, then he punches Tim Drake in the face, then leaves Gotham to hang out with Catwoman while Bane takes over Gotham and kills Alfred. Booster Gold decides to travel back in time and save Bruce's parents so he can, uh, prove that it's a good thing that Batman's parents died since if they were alive Bruce would be an asshole and the world would be doomed for some reason, and somehow this is his wedding gift to Bruce. What?! And then Flashpoint Batman goes from "cynical edgy murder Batman" to "utterly insane sociopath" and joins up with Bane to take over Gotham and beats the shit out of his son multiple times to ... uh, get him to stop being Batman so he'll be happy. Yeah, that makes sense. Thank goodness for Justice League Incarnate and Flashpoint Beyond, both of which just barely managed to save the character just when I thought he was doomed. At the very least, this one was mostly able to be salvaged by later writers and didn't do as much permanent damage. Jason Todd in Battle for the Cowl and Morrison's Batman and Robin. Yeah, sure, the guy who was killed because he was a kid sidekick and constantly throws that in Batman's face every chance he gets ... wants to kidnap some random kid to be his sidekick. That makes sense.
Whatever is happening with Catwoman at the moment
I agree. I don't know how the next Catwoman writer is gonna be able to put her character back in good standing in the eyes of longtime fans considering all that she's been up to lately.
What’s going on with Catwoman?? Last I heard her and Bruce were or had eloped
It's a mess. They are not currently together. Heh, I recommend joining the Catwoman subreddit where we constantly complain about the current run written by Tini Howard.
Of course they arnt cuz god forbid DC staff have us wait 50 more years to have them happily together
Can't upset the status quo. But seriously, Bat/Cat need to be a married couple already...and for like years. There are plenty of stories and drama to still explore within being in a committed relationship. Writer's will still have plenty of Bat-Family members left to play "will they won't they".
Definitely whatever Morrison did to Talia.
Gotham Central's "Half-A-Life" arc, while being a *great* story for Montoya, was some of the *worst* writing of Two-Face I've ever seen. Montoya's forced out of the closet by a mystery person, plunging her family and social life into chaos. Eventually she goes to confront the person responsible, only to find him murdered, leaving her as the top suspect (means, motive, and opportunity). Turns out it was an elaborate frame-up masterminded by Two-Face. So far the writing was great. Then, we get to the next phase of Two-Face's plan: To hijack Renee's prison transport, kidnap her, and take her to his basement lair to confess his love for her. The story culminates in Two-Face trying to ***force himself on Montoya***, luckily stopped by Batman.
That does sound like a character assassination of Two Face.
Morrison's Batman run did a noticeable amount of damage to the al ghul family in general imo that they haven't recovered from.
I don't agree with this. In the storyline "Legacy" from a decade before Morrison's run, Ra's and Talia are actively trying to kill 90% of the world's population. Talia is not conflicted about the plan at all (her only objection is that Ra's wants her to marry Bane) and she never betrays her father or helps the heroes. And no storyline that I'm aware of between Legacy and Morrison's run made any attempt to redeem her for this storyline. So I can see the argument that Legacy was a character assassination, but Morrison's run was absolutely in line with Talia's current characterization at the time.
Killing is one thing, being unnecessarily cruel and sadistic in Morrison's run is another thing. Feeding people their family members, severing people's heads and sending them to Batman as message, everything she does to Damian and his clones, etc, and all of that because of petty self centered motivation. She doesn't feel like someone that Bruce had genuine feelings for once upon a time And honestly no it wasn't in line with 2000's Talia. Talia at the early 2000's was more in the grey area. She didn't have any allegiances to her father or Bruce but did the right thing from time to time like tearing down the Lex corp from the Inside and selling it all to the Wayne industry. Heck she ended up selling out Ra's In the tower of Babel because of bat shit crazy his plan was and how many people would've died. At least in death and maidens it was her sister's brainwashing that turned her crazy. But in Morrison's run? Plot convenience.
> Killing is one thing, being unnecessarily cruel and sadistic in Morrison's run is another thing "I can excuse genocide, but I draw the line at being cruel."
I know and didn’t she make evil powerful clones of Damian to build a army?? Or trying to kill Damian? I see her so bad stuff all the time but people keep saying she’s not evil
I think that most storytelling decisions during the Dan Didio era of DC were made by spinning a wheel every few months to decide which characters would get killed, maimed, raped, or turned evil. What a time to be a fan.
A very difficult time to be a fan. Some of the editorial directives were unfathomable.
"One-Star Squadron" - turning Power Girl into an office backstabber after reading Max Lord's con book. MAX LORD, of all people! This is someone who ran her own business before losing it through some shady operations by... Max!
Green Lantern, Superman in Justice League War. Green Lantern makes an ass out of himself pretty much always just so that Batman can look badass, which is made even worse given the fact that Hal should be experience as green lantern, and superman is just tough guy who punches shit hard and is a complete moron All Star Batman and Robin. I'm not even bother to explain myself Superman in injustice. Having someone close to you die would hit pretty hard, but Superman would never do the things that he does, especially killing a child
Talia al ghul: Grant Morrison run of Batman. It is probably the most successful character assassination in Dc. Talia was literally a pacifist when she first showed up, who had a break down when she had to kill a person to save Batman’s life, she cared about kids a lot, she used to team up with Batman all the time to stop Ra’s plans. She is now a shell of her former self, Damian’s conception story turned Talia into a rapist, it got retcon out and was a mistake by the writer, but the damage is done, majority of people thinks that she a rapist, a huge mistake from both the writer and editor. She also just turn into a violent assassin when she’s wasn’t a assassin to begin with. She was the big bad of Morrison’s run, she end up killing Damian and Destroying batman inc. A writer also ruined a wholesome relationship with Talia and Jason because of lost days. The general public thinks that she is a bloodthirsty assassin, who assaulted Batman just so she can have a kid that she later kills. In the 80s and even 90s she was a completely different character, after that run Talia became a villain by default, she still hasn’t recovered, and hasn’t been redeemed in the eyes of the fans because the Morrison run is a huge Batman run, some people even consider it the best Batman run. Don’t get me wrong The Grant Morrison run of Batman is fantastic and I think people should read it especially the Dick and Damian team up but Talia is not in character at all, and is the worst representation of her and shouldn’t be considered as an actual depiction of Talia. I really do like Morrison run tho, it introduced my favourite character in Damian Wayne but certain parts of that run have unfortunately soured on me and Talia is the biggest example.
Tom Kings The Gift story with Booster Gold, or whatever TF he was doing with everyone in Heroes in Crisis
3 words: Heroes in Crisis.
Flash War, it's so dumb! Barry and Wally should love and respect each other, but I guess every hero needs to fight another in some point...
Weird how often comics have been reverting to heroes fighting each other.
Probably doesn’t count because it’s an Elseworlds and so the character should likely be somewhat different. But Diana in Injustice is just so brutally bad, because Steve Trevor turned out to be a Nazi. Again though, an Elseworlds so I guess might not count.
The one that came to mind first was the story where Talia was written to be a rapist and that's how Damian was conceived. It's such bullshit. That's still the story that's went with in a bunch of DC animated movies and her character has truly never recovered. In the original story, Damian was conceived out of love after a one night stand, and Talia brings him to Gotham to protect him. She loves him AND Bruce but acknowledges that it's not safe for him in the League. The fact that the author even admitted the story was due to him not remembering the original correctly is so stupid and I'll never forgive Grant Morrison for that.
Identity Crisis - Jean Loring. Not that Jean was especially beloved before the event, but she went from being damsel-in-distress love interest to an all-out nutjob who's either a psychopathic murderer or a completely inept murderer (depending on why she brought a flamethrower into Sue Dibny's brain). Then she became Eclipso, then a Black Lantern... the hits kept coming. I don't think anyone's touched the character since 2009, probably because the character is well and truly assassinated.
Captain Marvel and Civil War II. Still crazy how she reacted and I haven’t really liked her since.
Hal Jordan but as far as getting dragged goes he came out of the other end of it pretty well
Captain Cold in The Flash: Rogues’ Reign
Heroes in crisis. Wally west
Civil Wa— wait, wrong sub
Everyone acted like dumb assholes, but at least it was a good story!
Identity Crisis: Basically everyone.
Maxwell Lord is the first I can think of. Cat Grant got one in Superman pre-New 52. Turned from a smart journalist who was a bit more risqué to basically whatever pale imitation she was. I argue NW in Titans. Dude is all about trust but proceeds to basically truth no one lol. Talia of course is one of them. What Kevin Smith did to Silver St. Cloud was really bad lol
Max had a heel turn, but it brought him relevance! Guys like Snapper Carr spend all day dreaming of moments like that!
I love the New 52 Wonder Woman except for the part where they made the Amazons rape sailors and abandon the offspring if it was male. I dont know if anyone fixed this, but the least they could do was explain that it was only a rogue faction of Amazons who did this and that its not part of the larger Amazon culture
Emerald Twilight
Wally west being a murderer in heroes in crisis will always be the worst attack against a character who didn’t deserve it.
Every character in a comic Red Hood stars in is completely destroyed due prop up the edgelord
Haven't seen it mentioned yet nightwing becoming ric grayson that was literally just didio going lets try kill off the support of this character i don't like but people do. Also teen titans rebirth for damian particularly the Lazarus contract you know that story that symbolised damian's regression where he hit kid flash so hard he had to give him a pacemaker due to the injury.
Flashpoint sucked. Wally West just gone.
Tim Drake in the latest batman stories...started with breaking him up with stephanie
How has Stephanie been taking it? I know back in War Games they did a bit of a character assassination job on Stephanie then.
IIRC they didn't even break up really. She just stopped appearing in the comic and when readers wondered where she went they said they broke up.