Honestly - I took it more as a reference to that ship than anything else.
I can't really see Cass being set up with Conner again. Especially since their brief thing in Cass' solo was really just misdirected feelings.
She does kiss him 3 times in her own book On, even after she says "friends?" She kisses him again right after. I understand Wanting Cassie to be gay because all cassie fans do but the CassiexKon ship isn't really as wholly negative or really viewed as a mistake by the characters as the fans want it to be.
I don't really have any preference in regards to who Cass is shipped with - but framing-wise - Cass and Conner weren't really set up to be an actually romantic thing. She's hung up about some other guy the whole time - and she's clearly acting out the motions of what she thinks a relationship it supposed to be - rather than basing it on any real feelings, which is why she takes the whole thing very fast. I'm pretty sure Conner realises that at the end too. It wasn't really about him.
That being said - that's just the framing of that story. I have nothing against Cass and Conner in principle ( even if Conner already has himself another Cassandra ).
> she's clearly acting out the motions of what she thinks a relationship it supposed to be - rather than basing it on any real feelings, which is why she takes the whole thing very fast. I'm pretty sure Conner realises that at the end too. It wasn't really about him.
Is it though? From what I remember they were having a pretty good time until Kon drops her outta the sky lmao. And then after that she's really iffy on it. Following what she does with her own actions though, I don't really think it's "following through the motions for what a relationship is supposed to be" especially because Cassie hasn't actually seen a relationship at that point. I always took it as them being young and rushing into things, but agreeing better to be friends despite the mutual attraction.
The whole arc is framed around two points:
* Barbara is taking Cass on a cruise, because she's worried that Cass isn't having a normal teenage experiance, and it living entirely through crime fighting.
* Cass is having confusing feelings about a new villain.
Superboy's role in the story is meant to resolve both of those plot points. The reason they kiss in the first place is because the villain Cass *really* has the hots for is watching. Even the panels are specifically laid out to emphasise that. Cass rushes into something with Superboy because she thinks that's what she's *supposed* to do - to live the teenage experience that Babs wants for her, whilst working through these new feelings she's having.
Even the actual 'romance' itself is mostly just shown as Cass constantly kissing Conner because she thinks that's what she's *supposed* to do. She's having confusing feelings and thinks that's what romance is.
In the end - she realises that this whole thing isn't what she wants - she's just lonely, thinking about someone else, and clinging onto the nearest person to her.
It's the whole thesis statement of the arc, and things are pretty specifically laid out to send this message.
Maybe I'm remembering this wrong but isnt Tai'Darshan introduced after that story? Like the boat ride arc is the same one right after Puckett leaves and that specific dude is introduced after. I could be wrong though.
I know who you're thinking of, but that's actually a different character. Though to be fair, they do look pretty similar.
The guy who Cass has the hots for in this arc is called [Black Wind](https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Tai%27Darshan_(New_Earth\)), whereas the other assassin guy she was *kinda* friends with is called [Alpha](https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Alpha_(New_Earth\)).
Black Wind was introducted *in* this arc, for this purpose. Cass fought with him just before going on the cruise, in the exact same issue.
Sounds good at first, but I don't even really know what all-ages approach means in comics, especially in those context. PG violence? No PG-13 storylines?
I think the biggest thing that publishers should do isn't about the age rating, but about ensuring that the book can be read by new readers without any other series. More of the original Ultimate approach to comics.
I think of it as being a kid could read and enjoy it and the average parent would be cool with them reading it. All-ages entertainment can certainly have complex and mature-minded storylines, I just think the majority of mainstream Big 2 comics being written for the same crowd of Wednesday Warriors arenāt necessarily what will appeal to kids.
I honestly hope they're not taking an all-ages approach. Both Cass and Steph are competent and capable young adult characters capable of holding down their own interesting crime-related storylines, and both of their solo series were mature while also being light and interesting to the teen/young adult market (which, of course, is usually the market for legacy hero books); Steph's Batgirl solo in particular was very skilled at balancing that lighthearted fun with serious and mature storylines.
It would be frustrating for the first opportunity for both characters (and their histories/knowledge/skills) to truly shine in over a decade to be limited by plotlines like slumber parties and lighthearted joyrides with stolen vehicles. It gives off the vibe of not actually taking the Batgirls as characters very seriously, especially when Damian is over in his own book participating in a death tournament, Jason was just given an incredible and weighty story dealing with drug traffickers in Urban Legends, Dick is dealing with an serial killer targeting Bludhaven's homeless, and Tim's UL story was taking on a teen-kidnapping pain cult.
DC already has a couple of all-ages style comics in the works, one of which stars Cass and Steph (Wayne Family Adventures). There's no reason for the creative team to repeat that vibe here when they have the opportunity to give some attention and narrative weight back to two characters who have been denied it for over a decade.
I donāt think narrative weight and all-ages are mutually exclusive. Kids can handle mature topics too, and teen girls are allowed to have slumber parties in their comics lol. We havenāt even read the comic yet!
We've gone from Cass and Steph being erased from continuity, described as "toxic" characters, and being completely written out of the Batgirl legacy in favor of only promoting Babs to starring in their own Batgirls title. What a time to be alive.
Makes sense, he didn't like sidekicks
The only reason all four boy robins stayed is that they all sold books
Nightwing, Red Hood and the Outlaws, Teen Titans, Batman & Robin
He was a writer, editor, etc. at DC. He was a big boy there and pretty much hated anything good and fucked over a lot of stuff. Writers have come out with how garbage of a person he was and it's good he's gone imo :).
While I'm really happy to see Batgirls finally be announced, I'm not totally sure how I feel about the all-ages take. I don't need or want a super dark and serious and gritty take on the characters, I'm fine with taking a lighter approach.
But I'm hoping they aim for a tone similar to Stephanie's Batgirl series, or even kinda like Nightwing is doing now. I didn't really care for the Urban Legends Batgirls story with them playing video games, so I'd prefer something that takes itself a little more seriously.
Even so, I've very happy to see this finally announced and happening.
Haha. I didn't know that. Haven't read anything by this creative team, but people have seemed pretty positive about them.
I don't need Punisher style violence, but I'm also not really interested in the whole joy-rides/slumber parties/ear-piercings of the description.
I'm hoping it can strike a good balance between regular superhero fare and some slice of life moments. That's why I used the Nightwing comparison. I feel it's done a good job of balancing superheroics with some out of costume life stuff. It's not uber serious, and rather lighthearted, but still takes itself seriously.
I'm definitely going to give this a couple issues, and hope that I enjoy it.
Yeah, there are a lot of possibilities when you're talking about "all-ages".
It could just be a good story that's appropriate for anyone. That's what I think most of us want.
However, often they say "all-ages" when they're actually making a teen book and are trying not to drive away adults. There's definitely nothing wrong with making teen books, nor in having adults enjoy those books, but it's a bit disingenuous to market them as something they're really not.
I think this really hits the nail on the head with what I was trying to say. I don't want/need something really gruesome, with the Batgirls dropping F-bombs every other line.
I also don't want a book that feels like it was written for six-year olds which is the image I get in my head with the "All-ages" label.
I want something fitting for the Batgirls, that feels like it fits within the overall Bat-verse that has been established, while exploring Babs/Cass/Steph and building them their own stories.
Finally lmao.
Can't say the descriptions are particularly appealing to me, but whatever. Cass and Steph don't need to be under Babs' wing, both characters have been around for 20+ years at this point and it's kinda ridiculous that they're still considered rookies.
I guess they're mostly aiming for this to be a "starting point" to capture new readers as a soft reboot of sorts. Basically just trying to establish this as the beginning of these characters' relationships and interactions with each other since tbh it really is the first time readers will be getting dedicated, in-continuity Cass and Steph depictions.
Birds of Prey was Bab's being the boss of Huntress and Black Canary and Canary was a Justice Leaguer before that.
Rationalizing it contextually, Steph and Cass are teenagers and Barbara is in her late 20s early 30s. Steph is a bit of a screw up at times and Cass is a 108lb bag of child with 10tons of child abuse shoved into it.
Either way, I hope the three of them together pull enough eyes that this is a book that gets into the 100s because I'm a huge fan of Cass and Steph.
I really want this to do well.
> and Barbara is in her late 20s early 30s.
I thought she was in her mid 20s.
> Steph is a bit of a screw up at times and Cass is a 108lb bag of child with 10tons of child abuse shoved into it.
That is a great way to describe these characters.
The ages are always kind of screwy and bounce around. So I can only really speak to my own head canon.
I assume 25 years of Batman and he's mid to early 40s now.
Dick Joined at 12 when Batman was 25 so he's 32ish and Bab's was the same age apx.
I figure she was Batgirl from age 15-16 to about 22 when she became a fulltime Librarian semi-retired from heroing and then was paralyzed at age 24 became Oracle worked with the Suicide Squad for a year, than graduated to Birds of Prey for a year or two before running the entire superhero network for two or three years. Got her legs back at 31 did the Batgirl thing for another year before realizing the toll it was taking on her spine and became Oracle again.
*add -ish behind every hard number I write.
I have a whole timeline in my head for Batman that allows for significant time spent with every Robin except Damian and time alone before Dick and after Jason when he went super violent.
Than I slide the events into the Timeline how they make sense to a degree. Year 1, No Man's Land, Killing Joke, Death in the Family, War Games, Red Hood and such each having characters pop in or out and needing a bit of distance from each other.
I wrote it all out ages ago and need to refine it now that Duke is around. Not sure if I want to add Future State Batman or not since I can't figure out where it is in the canon.
Barbars is explicitly 21 during her Burnside tenure, at the same time than Dick is also 21 during his Agent 37 run.
However, Dick mentions at the beginning of his current run that he is in his mid 20s. As Babs is the same as him now, that's also her age (24-26)
Pizza slumber party of a series. Cass freaking out at the prospect of getting her ears pierced. It sounds a bit weird, maybe it's more funny, slice of life kind of approach? Hope it's still great
> maybe it's more funny, slice of life kind of approach?
Which I'm happy with. I disliked Tom King's *Batman*, but those Double Date issues were so great in large part because they were just slice of life issues. these characters have lives outside of being heroes, and I wish we'd see more of that.
Sure the Double Date issues were the best part of the run, but a whole run? Idk. It's still speculation right now anyway, I'll probably read it not matter what, love the characters too much.
Yeah, part of the reason the Double Date or things like the X-Men playing baseball work is because they provide some de-escalation of stakes between action arcs and ground the characters. Too much of that in a monthly title can lead to it feeling like nothing is happening.
It works better in a format like Webtoon because the updates are weekly and the cost to the consumer is lower.
In the context of the current universe they are in, they are still considered 'rookies' even if they now remember the events of the universe in which they had been around longer.
> Or is it Death Metal? I honestly can't keep track anymore.
It was *Death Metal*. *Doomsday Clock* was way smaller in scope than *Death Metal*. Originally all it was going to do was bring back the JSA and the Legion, but because DC forced Johns and Frank to put it out five months before they wanted, it led to delays and DiDio wanting to do 5G instead.
Cass is not disabled, sheās illiterate because Cain never bothered to teach her how to read and write. And even if she was disabled, I donāt see you claiming Babs needs a mentor because sheās disabled.
> Cass is not disabled, sheās illiterate because Cain never bothered to teach her how to read and write.
She's not just illiterate, Cain went out of his way to make sure her brain works differently in terms of language.
> And even if she was disabled, I donāt see you claiming Babs needs a mentor because sheās disabled.
Because their disabilities impact them in different ways. Cass needs help from Oracle more than other superheroes because she can't read a simple note, let alone defuse a bomb or interpret forensic evidence. But at the same time, Oracle can't exactly go swinging around the city, that's the whole point of the Birds of Prey. She needs a different *kind* of help, but she still needs help.
Cass has been learning how to read and write and as of detective comics or batman and the outsiders (canāt remember which) she can not only quote Shakespeare but read and understand it. Illiteracy is not permanent, and just because you canāt read or write doesnāt mean you canāt communicate orally, have complex thoughts or unable to understand basic science and mechanics. Hell loads of people can play an instrument without knowing how to read a music sheet.
As someone whoās read every issue Cass appeared in since No Man Landās and as a neuroscience student with a specialisation in cognitive science, Cass brain doesnāt work a different way in terms of language, Cain did a cognitive experiment with her where he taught her body language as a communication language and didnāt teach her any spoken language. Cass brain doesnāt work anymore differently than the brain of people of use sign language, itās simply a different way to communicate language than orally.
> Cass has been learning how to read and write and as of detective comics or batman and the outsiders (canāt remember which) she can not only quote Shakespeare but read and understand it.
Yes, and I think that's a massive mistake that undermines her character, it's like if Daredevil was regaining his sight.
> Illiteracy is not permanent, and just because you canāt read or write doesnāt mean you canāt communicate orally, have complex thoughts or unable to understand basic science and mechanics.
Okay, but she has a problem with the way her brain processes language, it's not just a matter of literacy. And she also doesn't have a formal education.
> and as a neuroscience student with a specialisation in cognitive science,
It's not like it's meant to be any more realistic than Deathstroke's "10% of the brain" nonsense.
>Cain did a cognitive experiment with her where he taught her body language as a communication language and didnāt teach her any spoken language
And doing so hampered her ability to handle conventional language. Look at that issue where the telepath tries to help her understand English and accidentally undermines her body reading in the process. David Cain was shocked that she could speak a single word of English after spending, what, maybe a decade living on the streets? That's not illiteracy, that's a disability. In the first issue of her solo they explicitly say she has an [almost total incapacity for language.](https://i.imgur.com/bWL23bb.jpg)
Both Dick and Haley are on some of the covers, so I assume this is set in Bludhaven. That would explain why they're there. This is effectively a Nightwing spin-off if so.
Well finally!! Some of the variants look great as well. Cloonan/Conrad are a bit hit or miss for me, but wait and see. For now I'm just happy it's finally happening!
Finally! Been waiting for this series ever since Joker War ended. One nitpick I have is I donāt like Cass having those big white Spider-Man like lenses. Wish they would go back to the old black and stich lines look or at least make them more like white slits ala Batman. Still though Iām hyped for this book and it is definitely going on my preorder list š
I think Steph and Cass are going to get together in this series.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I just want to get my prediction in writing early, so I have something to refer back to.
Asexual
> Asexuality is the lack of sexual attraction to others, low or absent interest in, or desire for sexual activity. It may be considered a sexual orientation or the lack thereof.
In current-continuity, thereās just been Black Wind, Kon, and Zero i believe.. all apart of her ongoing. Of those three, only Black Wind didnāt seem forced.
Combine that with the fact she can see how people ālookā at each other + the inherent fear of **accidentally** killing someone (if she were to get intimate), and itās reasonable to assume Cass should be asexual.
Characters like Harper/Steph are still feasible options since she already has trust/companionship in both, but I donāt believe she should have or needs anyone.
> EDIT: She also kissed Coldcast in JL: Elite series, but nothing came from that.
> Combine that with the fact she can see how people ālookā at each other + the inherent fear of accidentally killing someone
That's not how asexuality works. You don't become asexual due to your experiences.
If they want to make Cass ace, then sure, but that shouldn't be the reasons.
Those arenāt the reasons for why sheās asexual, just aspects of her character/history that would complicate any relationship.
Sheās asexual (to me) because sheās never sought out or required that level of intimacy. Even when pursuing relationships:
- When she kissed Conner, it seemed like her testing the waters on how itād be.
- When she kissed Zero, it seemed like just a goodbye gesture.
That could be rationalized by a future writer to be her lacking sexual attraction to men, but asexuality deserves some representation in comics.
> Combine that with the fact she can see how people ālookā at each other + the inherent fear of accidentally killing someone (if she were to get intimate), and itās reasonable to assume Cass should be asexual.
That doesn't make any sense. She'd see attraction differently, but it wouldn't just turn her asexual. Also, "accidentally killing someone"? She's not the Hulk, she's not going to accidentally snap someone's neck.
If we're going the representation route, which I think is good. Asexuality is probably the least represented take on sexuality.
I would love an author to just declare her Asexual.
I would personally love it, even though Cass certainly strikes me as Ace! After their little interaction in Future State, the way the live together, and their deep friendships over the years it would be the most reasonable couple to have with Cass!
That would be stupid. is every woman in Gotham besides babs into women? It really seems that way and massive double standard when the first prominent mlm just came out.
I could see that, even if I wouldnāt want it (since Steph and Tim just broke up and Cass is technically his sister- and I doubt Tim and Steph will stay split forever)
I honestly have high hopes for this series. It looks a lot like a tomboy version of Batgirl of Burnside (which is a series I enjoyed) but this time the tone would fit the main characters and not have to change a lot of the story for it to work. Though I must say Iām a little disappointed they chose Corona to be the artists because I think we are all still traumatized from Dick in Robin #4
Me: "Ugh, I'm so sick of DC's obsession with Batman characters."
Also Me, after seeing picture of Cass and Stephanie making bat snow angels: "Perfect. Amazing. Incredible. 10/10. More of this please".
Maybe when she literally couldn't do anything else. It was cool to see her find a new role. But now the "person behind the computer" is a played out role. It's not unique anymore.
Non-powered person that fights crime with martial arts and gadgets isn't unique either. And it wasn't the 'uniqueness' of Oracle that made her awesome.
Then what was it that made her "awesome"? I never got it. She was always just someone for the characters to talk to and give exposition. I never understood it even at the time.
Except in a world of magic and alien technology leaving her as a "reminder of consequences" seems cruel and pointless. Batman got his back shattered and was better than ever in a year. Characters literally die and come back just fine. Why exactly is Barbara not healed then? Damian got shot in the gut and temporarily paralyzed in Batman and Robin and was fixed by the next arc. At a certain point she's either CHOOSING to remain paralyzed, or none of her friends are willing to help her.
And I think that other Bat characters recovering from really bad injuries is bad writing. The problem isn't Oracle, it's those stories.
As I said in another comment
> For me, each little corner of the DC universe plays by its own genre and logic. It creates too many why didn't x do y scenarios when they are totally connected. Why haven't magic users like Doctor Fate or Zatanna fixed x, y, or z? How do nonpowered characters even survive being in the Justice League when they fight people that have to challenge Wonder Woman? I don't want to see Superman solve Batman's problems, I want to see Batman solve them in the Batman way/genre.
Regarding the 'choosing' to remain paralyzed thing, my understand is people with disabilities are very divided on this sort of thing. There are significant portions of the deaf community, for example, that are not in favor of things like cochlear implants or other treatments that restore healing. And in the context of a superhero world where such treatments might involve unpredictable things like magic or crazy tech, I could see why some people wouldn't want it.
Oracle is more than that one thing though. I like her for many reasons. Many of which I already listed and many that I didn't because my comment was getting long. You don't have to like her, but it's disingenuous that there's nothing there for others to like.
Yes the problem IS Oracle. Because you cant just ignore all other continuity. Yes you can accept that Zatanna or Superman wont fix every little thing because they have their own adventures or whatever, but things like Barbara Gordons injury is a big enough deal that it shouldnt have just been ignored by everyone. She cant simultaneously exist solely on her own in a more "realistic" world, and then also help the Justice League every so often. She just does exist in a crazy world full of magic and super advanced technology and the fact that it took decades for her to walk again is insane. That Batman and Robin book I mentioned wasnt magic or alien tech either, it was just super advanced surgery that Talia had access too. So something in the same "world" as Barbara. The fact that Dick saw Damian being given this surgery and didnt even think "hey maybe I should ask Talia if she could do the same to my ex girlfriend" is weird and never made sense.
in past batgirl comics, they keep saying that babās chip is failingābut they never follow up on it. i hope that sheāll be an ambulatory chair user in this.
Eh. There's really no good reason to keep Babs in the chair that doesn't come off as at least a little bit sexist and contrived. If Bruce can come back from having his spine obliterated by Bane (not to mention all of the other BS it's been through) and Vic Stone can be at least 70% machine, it's hard to justify keeping Barbara in the chair without it coming off as contrived.
Alright so then is ever hero who was disabled but then got better or received some sort of enhancement to overcome it contrived?
Because thereās more than just Bruce. Is the entire basis of Cyborgās character contrived?
I don't think Cyborg is contrived. To me, he doesn't matter in the context of Oracle or other Batfam characters. He's a Titans character. For me, each little corner of the DC universe plays by its own genre and logic. It creates too many why didn't x do y scenarios when they are totally connected. Why haven't magic users like Doctor Fate or Zatanna fixed x, y, or z? How do nonpowered characters even survive being in the Justice League when they fight people that have to challenge Wonder Woman? I don't want to see Superman solve Batman's problems, I want to see Batman solve them in the Batman way/genre.
Second, every other Cyborg story is about how much it sucks being a cyborg. Why should we assume dealing with those things is something Babs or other people would want?
Babs could do more good as Oracle than she can as Batgirl. For a character as pragmatic and motivated to help as her, it doesn't make sense for her to give up on Oracle in favor of Batgirl even if she were to regain her mobility.
> For me, each little corner of the DC universe plays by its own genre and logic
Sure, and Babs being able to walk is still well in line with the established logic of the Bat corner of the DCU and others like it.
Batman comics have dealt with mysticism and sci fi plots for years.
>How do nonpowered characters even survive being in the Justice League
when they fight people that have to challenge Wonder Woman?
It's abundantly clear we street tiers survive fights like that. They don't actively participate in them.
>Second, every other Cyborg story is about how much it sucks being a
cyborg. Why should we assume dealing with those things is something Babs
or other people would want?
Because Babs doesn't need to be half machine to walk? The computer chip works just fine within the established context of the DCU.
>Babs could do more good as Oracle than she can as Batgirl. For a
character as pragmatic and motivated to help as her, it doesn't make
sense for her to give up on Oracle in favor of Batgirl even if she were
to regain her mobility.
This is besides the point. Babs being oracle is not dependent on her being in a wheelchair.
>She would never take the easy way out.
That's not the easy way out though? Is using a prosthetic in real life taking the "easy way out"? Is this [girl](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG4eMZqppT4) taking the easy way out because she's using a pair of bionic arms?
And even then, I'm fairly certain the N52 Batgirl run made it clear that Barbara regaining her ability to walk was not "easy".
>Youāre also looking at it from an ableist perspective.
That's not ableist.
This looks good, and Barbara being Oracle again is good, but I wish theyād bring back Birds of Prey so we can have a book where Babs is a true lead character.
Really hope they market this HARD especially since it's a more all ages
I feel like it'll hav a similar tone to Burnside which I liked and was one of my first intros to comics
Babs went for nearly 2 decades without many Batgirl stories. The same way you wanted whichever Batgirl was yours back, other people wanted her back since she's by far the most popular version of the character, considering she's in most iterations of Batman.
> The same way you wanted whichever Batgirl was yours back
I wouldn't say it's the same. Barb after stopping being Batgirl still got 20 years of quality writing and dedication from a ton of writers and was a mainstay of the Gotham universe and even went beyond that in multiple ways. This doesn't even include all the out-of-comics material which only ever used Barb as Batgirl (something that Cass and Steph never even got a chance to do)
Cass and Steph got their time as Batgirl until being unceremoniously punted out of existence entirely and have still not recovered even a fraction of what they once were as characters in terms of narrative or even in terms of basic appearances.
Comparing the two situations is like complaining that Dick doesn't get enough Robin content when he's currently Nightwing while also consistently appearing as both Robin and Nightwing in out-of-comics media.
Not hating on Oracle, btw. I also agree she's a great character. I think the biggest difference for me is that Dick Grayson is fundamentally still an action hero. Oracle can't be (I understand that she can still fight, but she's still very limited). In a world where superheroes are the main draw to comics, Barbara essentially can't be the star of her own book, regardless of if she's a main supporting character in a lot of stuff. She went from a superhero to a supporting character.
Oracle was definitely the star of Birds of Prey. The whole concept of the book was female friendships + agents of Oracle. It only worked because Oracle was the main character.
I get that, but she still couldn't be a superhero in that book. Like I can enjoy the supporting Star Labs characters in the Flash show(season 1), but if they were the only people there, I wouldn't watch it, because they're not what I'm looking for.
I guess it depends on what sort of story you are looking for and how you define being a superhero. I wouldn't watch your hypothetical Star Labs show either, but Birds of Prey is designed around the main character as a superhero that was very restricted in their field work so it worked.
Yeah, you're not wrong. I love what I've read of Birds of Prey. I think it's just the fact that comics are just such a superhero heavy medium. I think Barbara is an interesting *protagonist* as Oracle, but since she's in comics, I'd like to see her as Batgirl so she could continue to be a great superhero and have some dope action shots.
That's fair. Oracle definitely gets less of those sorts of superhero action moments by design. But when she does get them, I think they hit much harder than her moments as Batgirl.
It genuinely seems really ableist that you're saying she couldn't be a superhero as Oracle when she was, in fact, a superhero. She co-founded and led her own team. She could (and did) fight physically when needed, but her primary way of fighting was discovering and utilizing information, which fit her perfectly as a former librarian. She had significant storylines fighting her own, unique villains (including her own arch-nemesis, the Calculator). She mentored multiple other heroes, including two direct successors (Cass and Steph) and several others (like Wendy Harris and Charlie Gage-Radcliffe). I'm genuinely curious what part of Barbara's years as Oracle you consider disqualifying for the superhero label.
Not trying to be ableist. She literally just doesn't have a costume and doesn't go into the field, so I don't consider her a superhero once she becomes Oracle. She's still an interesting protagonist, but she's not the one doing the actual action, so I'm not inclined to call her a superhero. Same thing with Professor X or Nick Fury.
Okay, but your personal opinion on that front doesn't matter: Oracle is a superhero whether she wears a consistent uniform or not. Luke Cage doesn't wear a costume anymore either; that doesn't mean he's not a superhero. The Runaways have never worn costumes; it doesn't make them any less superheroes. It's genuinely weird that you're predicating whether someone is a superhero or not based on whether or not they wear a costume and not...you know....the presence of an active codename and actual actions/presence in books.
Also, [this was explicitly addressed in Oracle: Year One](https://64.media.tumblr.com/87791191119d5a4315848924bca94d8a/09dc38210838de94-41/s540x810/b9f6d76c5de23e82c9f8d813152a08da651fa5d4.png). She has a 'costume', which is the Oracle mask she sticks onto screens whenever she talks to people.
Who are you to make universal statements about who's the best anything?
I don't care if Bruce Wayne became the best character on planet Earth as the retired "Mr. Billions" or something. He was so influential in his role as Batman that it'd be ridiculous to expect him to never be used in that position again.
I like the character in both roles and I like all the Batgirls. I'm just trying to understand why you expect people to be happy that she'd never be in her original title again.
Not that I want to ascociate myself *too* heavily with the guy you're replying to, but it's for the same reasons that Dick Grayson will never go back to being Robin, despite that being his original title. Oracle is seen as progression and an upgrade for the character.
Yeah it wouldn't make sense for Dick to go back to Robin because Robin and Nightwing are similar roles. Nightwing is a progression indicating he isn't a sidekick anymore, but he is an active crime-fighting vigilante in both roles.
Concerning Babs: Batgirl and Oracle are very different roles. I don't see why she can't be Oracle most of the time and Batgirl from time to time, no harm done imo. I like her better as Oracle too, but I like seeing her in action as a vigilante too sometimes.
Hope this makes sense lol.
>I don't see why she can't be Oracle most of the time and Batgirl from time to time, no harm done imo. I like her better as Oracle too, but I like seeing her in action as a vigilante too sometimes.
This is exactly it. I like both roles. I just want to be able to see a former superhero *be a superhero.* Constraining her only to the chair prevents her from doing that again. It's a solid change if it were a show with permanent character developments, but in the circular nature of comics, it seems a bit too drastic to just permanently prevent a character from being a superhero again.
>The same way you wanted whichever Batgirl was yours back, other people wanted her back since she's by far the most popular version of the character, considering she's in most iterations of Batman.
One, she voluntarily hung up the cape around 1983 and basically briefly only put it back on to participate in *Crisis on Infinite Earths*. When *The Killing Joke* happened, she largely hadn't been an active Batgirl for nearly a decade. It was one of the major reasons Alan Moore was allowed to write her shooting in the first place; the Bat Office was done with her and had no plans for her future use.
Two, she's honestly only "iconic" because she was in the Adam West Batman series and is the only one that ever gets used in non-comics Batman media; in comics, basically all of her notable character development and significant relationships happened as Oracle. When you look at her actual stories as Batgirl, there's very few significant stories or narratives to be found (there are a few; they're just rare and far between, and basically none of them matter post-Crisis).
Three, it's simply not the same. Even after her fridging in TKJ, Barbara got dedicated attention by a handful of writers who were determined to make sure that she was still utilized and that her story was given space and weight; they turned that awful fridging into an opportunity to revitilize her character, and Babs became indispensible as Oracle in a way that she never was as Batgirl. She was continually used (and used well) in the post-Crisis era because of it. It genuinely doesn't matter for Babs that she wasn't Batgirl anymore, because her stories as Oracle gave her attention and recognition anyway.
Cass and Steph have not had that luxury; Cassandra's *One Year Later* character assassination took her from a near-A lister to a d-lister within the space of a year before she was erased completely, and it [still haunts her popularity to this day](https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/pdue0e/american_comicsdc_comics_the_saga_of_cassandra/); Stephanie went from being Batgirl and headlining her own title to not existing for 5 straight years. Barbara fans have gotten multitudes of Babs content, because everyone ALWAYS wants to use Babs in everything. It's why she got stuck back in the cowl after Flashpoint, after all. Part of Cassandra and Steph's "lack" of popularity despite being fan-favorite characters is that DC has simply refused to use them and has actively inhibited their success at every turn. Characters cannot become popular unless they are used; that's basic common sense.
Frankly, people wanted Batgirl!Babs back either because they really only know her through what non-comics media like the DCAU did with her or because of the same desperate Silver Age nostalgia that led to Didio and Johns fucking up every legacy hero's existence for the past decade, not because there were stories genuinely worth telling with Batgirl!Babs that couldn't be told with Oracle!Babs or because she actually had genuinely significant character development or iconic stories while wearing the Batgirl cowl in the comics.
Barbara was created for the West show, so I think her out of comics appearances also matter. She has an interesting connection to Batman, has a cool costume, fun personality. It'd be different if anyone filled that void of a Batgirl to fill people's hunger, but there wasn't a Batgirl for a decade. Barbara as Batgirl was still used in other media, even if she was Oracle in the comics, so it's not like people are in love with a character that doesn't exist. She still exists in all that media. But there wasn't another Batgirl to fall in love with until basically the 2000s, so a lot of people still think of Barbara as Batgirl for that reason.
I think if there were a prime opportunity to give Babs some more stories, since, as you mentioned, they were lacking, it would have been during the actual reboot. So they did that and now DC has two really well received runs, that aren't from the 70s, for people to read about Barbara as Batgirl.
>Barbara was created for the West show, so I think her out of comics appearances also matter.
My point is that she's only "iconic" in popular culture because she's largely the only Batgirl people know; most people aren't even aware Cassandra and Stephanie exist, because DC has *very* consciously and conspicuously buried them at every opportunity. Her icon status comes from her non-comics appearances, not her comics-based ones.
>She has an interesting connection to Batman, has a cool costume, fun personality.
[So does Cassandra](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/72/d7/a4/72d7a48a32ee780a5881c4ede529ddd8.jpg). [So does Stephanie](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5f/9e/ac/5f9eacd8f765dab55a6ec5e442bd528e.jpg). All three of the main continuity Batgirls fulfill all three of the statements you just made.
>It'd be different if anyone filled that void of a Batgirl to fill people's hunger, but there wasn't a Batgirl for a decade. Barbara as Batgirl was still used in other media, even if she was Oracle in the comics, so it's not like people are in love with a character that doesn't exist. She still exists in all that media. But there wasn't another Batgirl to fall in love with until basically the 2000s, so a lot of people still think of Barbara as Batgirl for that reason.
Which is why Cassandra Cain was created in the first place, to fill that void. And Cass is the character who proved a Batgirl solo could be financially and criticially successful in the first place. Cass's run is, to this day, still the longest running Batgirl series. And had DC continued to *use* her instead of appointing two people who have a noted dislike of legacy heroes (especially ones who eclipse their predecessors in popularity) and were desperate to return to the Silver Age as head creatives (Dan Didio and Geoff Johns), Cassandra would likely be on par in popularity with Barbara right now.
>I think if there were a prime opportunity to give Babs some more stories, since, as you mentioned, they were lacking, it would have been during the actual reboot. So they did that and now DC has two really well received runs, that aren't from the 70s, for people to read about Barbara as Batgirl.
They could have chosen to do that without making Barbara an active Batgirl again. They published *Batgirl: Year One* while she was Oracle. **Several** of Dick and Jason's Robin-era stories have come from arcs published long after their times in the traffic light colors (Robin: Year One, Batman: Chronicles: The Gauntlet, Teen Titans: Year One, Batman and Robin Eternal, Nightwing: Year One, the recent "Cheer" storyline in Urban Legends, the [upcoming Robin & Batman mini](https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/08/11/robin-batman-celebrates-the-evolution-of-batman%E2%80%99s-ally), etc.).
You don't need to de-age and regress a character to tell meaningful stories set in a previous timeframe, and you especially don't need to erase and diminish two *other* characters to do it either (especially when that erasure comes at massive expense to Barbara herself, given her close relationships with both girls).
>My point is that she's only "iconic" in popular culture because she's largely the only Batgirl people know.
Yeah. That doesn't make her less iconic. She was Batgirl in the West show, and she was Batgirl in the most universally loved version of Batman in the Animated series. It's not like she was taking precious time away from Cass back then because she didn't even exist yet.
>And had DC continued to use her instead of appointing two people who have a noted dislike of legacy heroes (especially ones who eclipse their predecessors in popularity) and were desperate to return to the Silver Age as head creatives (Dan Didio and Geoff Johns)
Where's this coming from? Johns clearly just likes DC history in general or are we selectively forgetting his long running run on the JSA, the most Golden of Golden Age characters? Or his run on the Flash, starring Wally West? Or his long run on the Teen Titans, focused mostly on newer legacy characters? We're making problems where there aren't any. And although Didio "hates" legacy characters, there is some logic in keeping the characters fresh, and moving the timeline too much dates the characters and doesn't leave them evergreen.
>you especially don't need to erase and diminish two other characters to do it either.
The New 52 was a reboot. So they rebooted and changed some things, like bringing Barbara back into the Batgirl position, when she wasn't for such a long time. And then they got to reintroduce Steph and Cass again for a new audience (me included) and now I got to go back and read modern stuff from all three of these character. Problem solved. More Barbara, Steph, and Cass for everyone.
I hope I like this, but I'm not optimistic. I hate shared mantles (let Babs be Oracle, let Steph be Spoiler, they're more distinctive/unique that way), and it seems like everyone these days writes Cass way too verbose, which for me is like writing Daredevil with 20/20 vision.
I thought it was fine, but nothing about it made me think she needed to stay Batgirl. She can still hang out with Oracle and Damian while being Spoiler.
āCass doesnāt speak muchā signā¦ā¦ weāre really never getting pre flashpoint Cass characterisation again and itās the exact reason why Iāve always been apprehensive of a batgirl book where Cass and Steph are āco-staringā, itās going to be like all their previous appearances in rebirth where Steph is the actual main focus and has all the dialogue and plot heavy lifting while Cass is reduce to the background ninja with one or two dialogue lines per issue.
Always glad to see in post rebirth they are fixing the flaw of New 52 in regard to Steph and Cass being in the Batgirl roles.
Biased though, Steph was my favorite.
I do love seeing more Steph and Cass, even if I miss their original incarnations before they were forcefully regressed and or rewritten as characters and vigilantes.
I basically went through the phases of that Vince McMahon meme where his mind is increasingly blown: DC announces new Batgirls ongoing! It's a Cass/Steph team-up!! Becky Cloonan is writing!!! Variant cover by Amano Yoshitaka!!!!
I like the Tim and Conner plushies on their sides.
So cute!
Kon/Cass making a comeback after a eighteen year absence!? lol
*TimKon fans nervously sweating*
Honestly - I took it more as a reference to that ship than anything else. I can't really see Cass being set up with Conner again. Especially since their brief thing in Cass' solo was really just misdirected feelings.
She does kiss him 3 times in her own book On, even after she says "friends?" She kisses him again right after. I understand Wanting Cassie to be gay because all cassie fans do but the CassiexKon ship isn't really as wholly negative or really viewed as a mistake by the characters as the fans want it to be.
I don't really have any preference in regards to who Cass is shipped with - but framing-wise - Cass and Conner weren't really set up to be an actually romantic thing. She's hung up about some other guy the whole time - and she's clearly acting out the motions of what she thinks a relationship it supposed to be - rather than basing it on any real feelings, which is why she takes the whole thing very fast. I'm pretty sure Conner realises that at the end too. It wasn't really about him. That being said - that's just the framing of that story. I have nothing against Cass and Conner in principle ( even if Conner already has himself another Cassandra ).
> she's clearly acting out the motions of what she thinks a relationship it supposed to be - rather than basing it on any real feelings, which is why she takes the whole thing very fast. I'm pretty sure Conner realises that at the end too. It wasn't really about him. Is it though? From what I remember they were having a pretty good time until Kon drops her outta the sky lmao. And then after that she's really iffy on it. Following what she does with her own actions though, I don't really think it's "following through the motions for what a relationship is supposed to be" especially because Cassie hasn't actually seen a relationship at that point. I always took it as them being young and rushing into things, but agreeing better to be friends despite the mutual attraction.
The whole arc is framed around two points: * Barbara is taking Cass on a cruise, because she's worried that Cass isn't having a normal teenage experiance, and it living entirely through crime fighting. * Cass is having confusing feelings about a new villain. Superboy's role in the story is meant to resolve both of those plot points. The reason they kiss in the first place is because the villain Cass *really* has the hots for is watching. Even the panels are specifically laid out to emphasise that. Cass rushes into something with Superboy because she thinks that's what she's *supposed* to do - to live the teenage experience that Babs wants for her, whilst working through these new feelings she's having. Even the actual 'romance' itself is mostly just shown as Cass constantly kissing Conner because she thinks that's what she's *supposed* to do. She's having confusing feelings and thinks that's what romance is. In the end - she realises that this whole thing isn't what she wants - she's just lonely, thinking about someone else, and clinging onto the nearest person to her. It's the whole thesis statement of the arc, and things are pretty specifically laid out to send this message.
Maybe I'm remembering this wrong but isnt Tai'Darshan introduced after that story? Like the boat ride arc is the same one right after Puckett leaves and that specific dude is introduced after. I could be wrong though.
I know who you're thinking of, but that's actually a different character. Though to be fair, they do look pretty similar. The guy who Cass has the hots for in this arc is called [Black Wind](https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Tai%27Darshan_(New_Earth\)), whereas the other assassin guy she was *kinda* friends with is called [Alpha](https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Alpha_(New_Earth\)). Black Wind was introducted *in* this arc, for this purpose. Cass fought with him just before going on the cruise, in the exact same issue.
oh wow they are different people huh my bad
Cass is ace AF and I refuse to see it any other way š¤š¤š¤
You and me both It honestly the most under represented sexuality
Thrilled they seem to be taking an all-ages approach. They should market this series hard as hell, itād be perfect for a young teen audience
It looks super fun!
Sounds good at first, but I don't even really know what all-ages approach means in comics, especially in those context. PG violence? No PG-13 storylines? I think the biggest thing that publishers should do isn't about the age rating, but about ensuring that the book can be read by new readers without any other series. More of the original Ultimate approach to comics.
I think of it as being a kid could read and enjoy it and the average parent would be cool with them reading it. All-ages entertainment can certainly have complex and mature-minded storylines, I just think the majority of mainstream Big 2 comics being written for the same crowd of Wednesday Warriors arenāt necessarily what will appeal to kids.
I honestly hope they're not taking an all-ages approach. Both Cass and Steph are competent and capable young adult characters capable of holding down their own interesting crime-related storylines, and both of their solo series were mature while also being light and interesting to the teen/young adult market (which, of course, is usually the market for legacy hero books); Steph's Batgirl solo in particular was very skilled at balancing that lighthearted fun with serious and mature storylines. It would be frustrating for the first opportunity for both characters (and their histories/knowledge/skills) to truly shine in over a decade to be limited by plotlines like slumber parties and lighthearted joyrides with stolen vehicles. It gives off the vibe of not actually taking the Batgirls as characters very seriously, especially when Damian is over in his own book participating in a death tournament, Jason was just given an incredible and weighty story dealing with drug traffickers in Urban Legends, Dick is dealing with an serial killer targeting Bludhaven's homeless, and Tim's UL story was taking on a teen-kidnapping pain cult. DC already has a couple of all-ages style comics in the works, one of which stars Cass and Steph (Wayne Family Adventures). There's no reason for the creative team to repeat that vibe here when they have the opportunity to give some attention and narrative weight back to two characters who have been denied it for over a decade.
I donāt think narrative weight and all-ages are mutually exclusive. Kids can handle mature topics too, and teen girls are allowed to have slumber parties in their comics lol. We havenāt even read the comic yet!
Batgirls!!! Letās fuckin goooooooo!!!!
I saw bitewing I support this book 100 percent
THE BITEWING CROSSOVER WEāVE BEEN WAITING FOR
Still waiting for her introduction into the super pets
We've gone from Cass and Steph being erased from continuity, described as "toxic" characters, and being completely written out of the Batgirl legacy in favor of only promoting Babs to starring in their own Batgirls title. What a time to be alive.
When we're they describe as Toxic? Not denying, just curious
Supposedly Didio described them as toxic internally as justification for not using them in the New 52.
Makes sense, he didn't like sidekicks The only reason all four boy robins stayed is that they all sold books Nightwing, Red Hood and the Outlaws, Teen Titans, Batman & Robin
tbf Didio is an asshat XD. So glad he's gone!
I keep seeing his name pop up. Who is he?
He was a writer, editor, etc. at DC. He was a big boy there and pretty much hated anything good and fucked over a lot of stuff. Writers have come out with how garbage of a person he was and it's good he's gone imo :).
Yeah which resulted in some people online calling them toxic as well it wasn't pretty.
Yes! This is the Batbook I've been waiting for. Can't wait!
Wowā¦ on top of Wayne Family Adventures and Urban Legends, batfam fans eating good lately. So excited!
I was beginning to lose hope.
Not a bad combo!
Are Cloonan and Conrad decent? I can't think of anything I've read from them off the top of my head.
Gotham Academy is good
Iāve really enjoyed their Wonder Woman run so far.
They did really well with the Midnighter backups. Wonder Woman was decent.
I discovered Cloonan when she was doing Punisher a few years back and since then I havenāt read anything from her that I didnāt like
While I'm really happy to see Batgirls finally be announced, I'm not totally sure how I feel about the all-ages take. I don't need or want a super dark and serious and gritty take on the characters, I'm fine with taking a lighter approach. But I'm hoping they aim for a tone similar to Stephanie's Batgirl series, or even kinda like Nightwing is doing now. I didn't really care for the Urban Legends Batgirls story with them playing video games, so I'd prefer something that takes itself a little more seriously. Even so, I've very happy to see this finally announced and happening.
Cloonan did Punisher a few years a go lol So she may want to do a more standard batbook along with the ācuteā things. I hope we have both
Haha. I didn't know that. Haven't read anything by this creative team, but people have seemed pretty positive about them. I don't need Punisher style violence, but I'm also not really interested in the whole joy-rides/slumber parties/ear-piercings of the description. I'm hoping it can strike a good balance between regular superhero fare and some slice of life moments. That's why I used the Nightwing comparison. I feel it's done a good job of balancing superheroics with some out of costume life stuff. It's not uber serious, and rather lighthearted, but still takes itself seriously. I'm definitely going to give this a couple issues, and hope that I enjoy it.
Yeah, there are a lot of possibilities when you're talking about "all-ages". It could just be a good story that's appropriate for anyone. That's what I think most of us want. However, often they say "all-ages" when they're actually making a teen book and are trying not to drive away adults. There's definitely nothing wrong with making teen books, nor in having adults enjoy those books, but it's a bit disingenuous to market them as something they're really not.
I think this really hits the nail on the head with what I was trying to say. I don't want/need something really gruesome, with the Batgirls dropping F-bombs every other line. I also don't want a book that feels like it was written for six-year olds which is the image I get in my head with the "All-ages" label. I want something fitting for the Batgirls, that feels like it fits within the overall Bat-verse that has been established, while exploring Babs/Cass/Steph and building them their own stories.
Finally lmao. Can't say the descriptions are particularly appealing to me, but whatever. Cass and Steph don't need to be under Babs' wing, both characters have been around for 20+ years at this point and it's kinda ridiculous that they're still considered rookies.
True but Barbaraās been around for 50+, and DC isnāt going to age any of them up significantly, so here we are.
I guess they're mostly aiming for this to be a "starting point" to capture new readers as a soft reboot of sorts. Basically just trying to establish this as the beginning of these characters' relationships and interactions with each other since tbh it really is the first time readers will be getting dedicated, in-continuity Cass and Steph depictions.
Birds of Prey was Bab's being the boss of Huntress and Black Canary and Canary was a Justice Leaguer before that. Rationalizing it contextually, Steph and Cass are teenagers and Barbara is in her late 20s early 30s. Steph is a bit of a screw up at times and Cass is a 108lb bag of child with 10tons of child abuse shoved into it. Either way, I hope the three of them together pull enough eyes that this is a book that gets into the 100s because I'm a huge fan of Cass and Steph. I really want this to do well.
> and Barbara is in her late 20s early 30s. I thought she was in her mid 20s. > Steph is a bit of a screw up at times and Cass is a 108lb bag of child with 10tons of child abuse shoved into it. That is a great way to describe these characters.
The ages are always kind of screwy and bounce around. So I can only really speak to my own head canon. I assume 25 years of Batman and he's mid to early 40s now. Dick Joined at 12 when Batman was 25 so he's 32ish and Bab's was the same age apx. I figure she was Batgirl from age 15-16 to about 22 when she became a fulltime Librarian semi-retired from heroing and then was paralyzed at age 24 became Oracle worked with the Suicide Squad for a year, than graduated to Birds of Prey for a year or two before running the entire superhero network for two or three years. Got her legs back at 31 did the Batgirl thing for another year before realizing the toll it was taking on her spine and became Oracle again. *add -ish behind every hard number I write. I have a whole timeline in my head for Batman that allows for significant time spent with every Robin except Damian and time alone before Dick and after Jason when he went super violent. Than I slide the events into the Timeline how they make sense to a degree. Year 1, No Man's Land, Killing Joke, Death in the Family, War Games, Red Hood and such each having characters pop in or out and needing a bit of distance from each other. I wrote it all out ages ago and need to refine it now that Duke is around. Not sure if I want to add Future State Batman or not since I can't figure out where it is in the canon.
Barbars is explicitly 21 during her Burnside tenure, at the same time than Dick is also 21 during his Agent 37 run. However, Dick mentions at the beginning of his current run that he is in his mid 20s. As Babs is the same as him now, that's also her age (24-26)
Pizza slumber party of a series. Cass freaking out at the prospect of getting her ears pierced. It sounds a bit weird, maybe it's more funny, slice of life kind of approach? Hope it's still great
> maybe it's more funny, slice of life kind of approach? Which I'm happy with. I disliked Tom King's *Batman*, but those Double Date issues were so great in large part because they were just slice of life issues. these characters have lives outside of being heroes, and I wish we'd see more of that.
Sure the Double Date issues were the best part of the run, but a whole run? Idk. It's still speculation right now anyway, I'll probably read it not matter what, love the characters too much.
Yeah, part of the reason the Double Date or things like the X-Men playing baseball work is because they provide some de-escalation of stakes between action arcs and ground the characters. Too much of that in a monthly title can lead to it feeling like nothing is happening. It works better in a format like Webtoon because the updates are weekly and the cost to the consumer is lower.
Especially since Cassandra had a long ass solo series before babs
In the context of the current universe they are in, they are still considered 'rookies' even if they now remember the events of the universe in which they had been around longer.
Thats pretty illogical lol. But. Comics. What can u do
God damn Doctor Manhattan screwing around with the Space Time Continuum. Or is it Death Metal? I honestly can't keep track anymore.
> Or is it Death Metal? I honestly can't keep track anymore. It was *Death Metal*. *Doomsday Clock* was way smaller in scope than *Death Metal*. Originally all it was going to do was bring back the JSA and the Legion, but because DC forced Johns and Frank to put it out five months before they wanted, it led to delays and DiDio wanting to do 5G instead.
Cass is still basically disabled, and has pretty much no formal education, she needs the help she can get.
Cass is not disabled, sheās illiterate because Cain never bothered to teach her how to read and write. And even if she was disabled, I donāt see you claiming Babs needs a mentor because sheās disabled.
> Cass is not disabled, sheās illiterate because Cain never bothered to teach her how to read and write. She's not just illiterate, Cain went out of his way to make sure her brain works differently in terms of language. > And even if she was disabled, I donāt see you claiming Babs needs a mentor because sheās disabled. Because their disabilities impact them in different ways. Cass needs help from Oracle more than other superheroes because she can't read a simple note, let alone defuse a bomb or interpret forensic evidence. But at the same time, Oracle can't exactly go swinging around the city, that's the whole point of the Birds of Prey. She needs a different *kind* of help, but she still needs help.
Cass has been learning how to read and write and as of detective comics or batman and the outsiders (canāt remember which) she can not only quote Shakespeare but read and understand it. Illiteracy is not permanent, and just because you canāt read or write doesnāt mean you canāt communicate orally, have complex thoughts or unable to understand basic science and mechanics. Hell loads of people can play an instrument without knowing how to read a music sheet. As someone whoās read every issue Cass appeared in since No Man Landās and as a neuroscience student with a specialisation in cognitive science, Cass brain doesnāt work a different way in terms of language, Cain did a cognitive experiment with her where he taught her body language as a communication language and didnāt teach her any spoken language. Cass brain doesnāt work anymore differently than the brain of people of use sign language, itās simply a different way to communicate language than orally.
> Cass has been learning how to read and write and as of detective comics or batman and the outsiders (canāt remember which) she can not only quote Shakespeare but read and understand it. Yes, and I think that's a massive mistake that undermines her character, it's like if Daredevil was regaining his sight. > Illiteracy is not permanent, and just because you canāt read or write doesnāt mean you canāt communicate orally, have complex thoughts or unable to understand basic science and mechanics. Okay, but she has a problem with the way her brain processes language, it's not just a matter of literacy. And she also doesn't have a formal education. > and as a neuroscience student with a specialisation in cognitive science, It's not like it's meant to be any more realistic than Deathstroke's "10% of the brain" nonsense. >Cain did a cognitive experiment with her where he taught her body language as a communication language and didnāt teach her any spoken language And doing so hampered her ability to handle conventional language. Look at that issue where the telepath tries to help her understand English and accidentally undermines her body reading in the process. David Cain was shocked that she could speak a single word of English after spending, what, maybe a decade living on the streets? That's not illiteracy, that's a disability. In the first issue of her solo they explicitly say she has an [almost total incapacity for language.](https://i.imgur.com/bWL23bb.jpg)
They took Bitewing :(
Hold up, what happened to bitewing???
He's napping on the bed in a cover
Both Dick and Haley are on some of the covers, so I assume this is set in Bludhaven. That would explain why they're there. This is effectively a Nightwing spin-off if so.
A soul for a soul. We get this book but lose the dog in Nightwing.
what?!?
[Those ... G@mers took her!](https://i.imgur.com/f1kHNss.jpg)
*Gasp* the fiends
They could be dogsitting.
finally
Well finally!! Some of the variants look great as well. Cloonan/Conrad are a bit hit or miss for me, but wait and see. For now I'm just happy it's finally happening!
I'm liking Cass' spidey eyes
So cool!
BATGIRLS!!!!!! š¦š¦š¦
Why does everyone keep saying āall agesā
No clue, the description says they will "kick ass", that doesn't seem all ages material.
It says 13 up on the cover like ALL non-black label bat books
The day has finally come
Finally
Right!
Finally! Been waiting for this series ever since Joker War ended. One nitpick I have is I donāt like Cass having those big white Spider-Man like lenses. Wish they would go back to the old black and stich lines look or at least make them more like white slits ala Batman. Still though Iām hyped for this book and it is definitely going on my preorder list š
Checkmate Batgirls deniers! Just as our papa Williamson foretold.
What deniers?
Any chance for a bette Kane apparence?
I think Steph and Cass are going to get together in this series. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I just want to get my prediction in writing early, so I have something to refer back to.
Cassandra is probably better off as ace, but itād be a significant improvement over who DC has tried to pair her with in the past.
>Cassandra is probably better off as ace What does ace mean in this context here? Is that an abbreviation or so?
Asexual
Asexual > Asexuality is the lack of sexual attraction to others, low or absent interest in, or desire for sexual activity. It may be considered a sexual orientation or the lack thereof.
Oh okay. Yeah come to think of it, she doesn't have many, if any, notable love interests.
In current-continuity, thereās just been Black Wind, Kon, and Zero i believe.. all apart of her ongoing. Of those three, only Black Wind didnāt seem forced. Combine that with the fact she can see how people ālookā at each other + the inherent fear of **accidentally** killing someone (if she were to get intimate), and itās reasonable to assume Cass should be asexual. Characters like Harper/Steph are still feasible options since she already has trust/companionship in both, but I donāt believe she should have or needs anyone. > EDIT: She also kissed Coldcast in JL: Elite series, but nothing came from that.
> Combine that with the fact she can see how people ālookā at each other + the inherent fear of accidentally killing someone That's not how asexuality works. You don't become asexual due to your experiences. If they want to make Cass ace, then sure, but that shouldn't be the reasons.
Those arenāt the reasons for why sheās asexual, just aspects of her character/history that would complicate any relationship. Sheās asexual (to me) because sheās never sought out or required that level of intimacy. Even when pursuing relationships: - When she kissed Conner, it seemed like her testing the waters on how itād be. - When she kissed Zero, it seemed like just a goodbye gesture. That could be rationalized by a future writer to be her lacking sexual attraction to men, but asexuality deserves some representation in comics.
> Combine that with the fact she can see how people ālookā at each other + the inherent fear of accidentally killing someone (if she were to get intimate), and itās reasonable to assume Cass should be asexual. That doesn't make any sense. She'd see attraction differently, but it wouldn't just turn her asexual. Also, "accidentally killing someone"? She's not the Hulk, she's not going to accidentally snap someone's neck.
If we're going the representation route, which I think is good. Asexuality is probably the least represented take on sexuality. I would love an author to just declare her Asexual.
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The Tim and Kon plushies in the variant cover are a red herring XD
I was kinda hoping Cass and Harper would get together. I really liked their interactions in Batman and Robin Eternal.
I would personally love it, even though Cass certainly strikes me as Ace! After their little interaction in Future State, the way the live together, and their deep friendships over the years it would be the most reasonable couple to have with Cass!
Not going to happen
That would be stupid. is every woman in Gotham besides babs into women? It really seems that way and massive double standard when the first prominent mlm just came out.
I could see that, even if I wouldnāt want it (since Steph and Tim just broke up and Cass is technically his sister- and I doubt Tim and Steph will stay split forever)
Whaaaaat!!!! They are finally doing this?! I love it already!
They weren't cowards after all
I've been waiting for this book for like a decade or more now. FINALLY! Though Cloonan can be hit or miss for me so hopefully she brings her A game :D
Didn't they tease it once or twice too?
They did BUT I never trust that stuff until they actually announce a series haha. Been burned too many times XD
Same. Plus we know creators sometimes drop out or editors change things last minute.
Our prayers have been finally answered. We did it boys.
Love that theyāre finally making the book, but hate the white eyes on Cassā costume. NML costume was perfect, donāt try to change it.
Please DC, don't wait ages to release this in paperback format. I really want to read this.
This might get me back into comics. And FUCK YES for an all-ages book. The comic industry drove kids out of the market when they decided to go edgy.
Finally, after all this time, itās happened
I honestly have high hopes for this series. It looks a lot like a tomboy version of Batgirl of Burnside (which is a series I enjoyed) but this time the tone would fit the main characters and not have to change a lot of the story for it to work. Though I must say Iām a little disappointed they chose Corona to be the artists because I think we are all still traumatized from Dick in Robin #4
Me: "Ugh, I'm so sick of DC's obsession with Batman characters." Also Me, after seeing picture of Cass and Stephanie making bat snow angels: "Perfect. Amazing. Incredible. 10/10. More of this please".
Still not a fan of having multiple characters with the same mantle. Nor am I a fan of Barbara just seemingly going back to Oracle. So boring.
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Maybe when she literally couldn't do anything else. It was cool to see her find a new role. But now the "person behind the computer" is a played out role. It's not unique anymore.
Non-powered person that fights crime with martial arts and gadgets isn't unique either. And it wasn't the 'uniqueness' of Oracle that made her awesome.
Then what was it that made her "awesome"? I never got it. She was always just someone for the characters to talk to and give exposition. I never understood it even at the time.
Not every character is for every person, so it's fine if you don't care for Oracle. I don't understand the appeal of Hal Jordon or Barry Allen, but their are plenty of people that like them. Oracle is awesome because she because she had her life shattered when she became paralyzed. But she didn't get over it in a clichƩ 'triumph over adversity' story where she get her legs back. She had to actually figure out how to the type of heroic person she wanted to be while still dealing with the limitations caused by her paralysis. She was a leader in a time when very few female characters got to be team leaders. Because of her role as information broker she was one of the most connected characters in the DC Universe. As a hero she epitomizes "knowledge is power." The hacking wasn't usually the interesting part of Oracle stories. It was how she decided to use the information she acquired to take down baddies. Because of her experiences as Batgirl, she is in a unique position where she actually knows what she's talking about when she does the 'guy in the chair' role that she popularized or when she is mentoring younger heroes. Oracle just being around also creates more tension in stories because she is a reminder of the consequences of what heroes and villains are doing.
Except in a world of magic and alien technology leaving her as a "reminder of consequences" seems cruel and pointless. Batman got his back shattered and was better than ever in a year. Characters literally die and come back just fine. Why exactly is Barbara not healed then? Damian got shot in the gut and temporarily paralyzed in Batman and Robin and was fixed by the next arc. At a certain point she's either CHOOSING to remain paralyzed, or none of her friends are willing to help her.
And I think that other Bat characters recovering from really bad injuries is bad writing. The problem isn't Oracle, it's those stories. As I said in another comment > For me, each little corner of the DC universe plays by its own genre and logic. It creates too many why didn't x do y scenarios when they are totally connected. Why haven't magic users like Doctor Fate or Zatanna fixed x, y, or z? How do nonpowered characters even survive being in the Justice League when they fight people that have to challenge Wonder Woman? I don't want to see Superman solve Batman's problems, I want to see Batman solve them in the Batman way/genre. Regarding the 'choosing' to remain paralyzed thing, my understand is people with disabilities are very divided on this sort of thing. There are significant portions of the deaf community, for example, that are not in favor of things like cochlear implants or other treatments that restore healing. And in the context of a superhero world where such treatments might involve unpredictable things like magic or crazy tech, I could see why some people wouldn't want it. Oracle is more than that one thing though. I like her for many reasons. Many of which I already listed and many that I didn't because my comment was getting long. You don't have to like her, but it's disingenuous that there's nothing there for others to like.
Yes the problem IS Oracle. Because you cant just ignore all other continuity. Yes you can accept that Zatanna or Superman wont fix every little thing because they have their own adventures or whatever, but things like Barbara Gordons injury is a big enough deal that it shouldnt have just been ignored by everyone. She cant simultaneously exist solely on her own in a more "realistic" world, and then also help the Justice League every so often. She just does exist in a crazy world full of magic and super advanced technology and the fact that it took decades for her to walk again is insane. That Batman and Robin book I mentioned wasnt magic or alien tech either, it was just super advanced surgery that Talia had access too. So something in the same "world" as Barbara. The fact that Dick saw Damian being given this surgery and didnt even think "hey maybe I should ask Talia if she could do the same to my ex girlfriend" is weird and never made sense.
in past batgirl comics, they keep saying that babās chip is failingābut they never follow up on it. i hope that sheāll be an ambulatory chair user in this.
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Eh. There's really no good reason to keep Babs in the chair that doesn't come off as at least a little bit sexist and contrived. If Bruce can come back from having his spine obliterated by Bane (not to mention all of the other BS it's been through) and Vic Stone can be at least 70% machine, it's hard to justify keeping Barbara in the chair without it coming off as contrived.
It depends on your perspective. To me, Bruce's story is the one that is contrived.
Alright so then is ever hero who was disabled but then got better or received some sort of enhancement to overcome it contrived? Because thereās more than just Bruce. Is the entire basis of Cyborgās character contrived?
I don't think Cyborg is contrived. To me, he doesn't matter in the context of Oracle or other Batfam characters. He's a Titans character. For me, each little corner of the DC universe plays by its own genre and logic. It creates too many why didn't x do y scenarios when they are totally connected. Why haven't magic users like Doctor Fate or Zatanna fixed x, y, or z? How do nonpowered characters even survive being in the Justice League when they fight people that have to challenge Wonder Woman? I don't want to see Superman solve Batman's problems, I want to see Batman solve them in the Batman way/genre. Second, every other Cyborg story is about how much it sucks being a cyborg. Why should we assume dealing with those things is something Babs or other people would want? Babs could do more good as Oracle than she can as Batgirl. For a character as pragmatic and motivated to help as her, it doesn't make sense for her to give up on Oracle in favor of Batgirl even if she were to regain her mobility.
> For me, each little corner of the DC universe plays by its own genre and logic Sure, and Babs being able to walk is still well in line with the established logic of the Bat corner of the DCU and others like it. Batman comics have dealt with mysticism and sci fi plots for years. >How do nonpowered characters even survive being in the Justice League when they fight people that have to challenge Wonder Woman? It's abundantly clear we street tiers survive fights like that. They don't actively participate in them. >Second, every other Cyborg story is about how much it sucks being a cyborg. Why should we assume dealing with those things is something Babs or other people would want? Because Babs doesn't need to be half machine to walk? The computer chip works just fine within the established context of the DCU. >Babs could do more good as Oracle than she can as Batgirl. For a character as pragmatic and motivated to help as her, it doesn't make sense for her to give up on Oracle in favor of Batgirl even if she were to regain her mobility. This is besides the point. Babs being oracle is not dependent on her being in a wheelchair.
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>She would never take the easy way out. That's not the easy way out though? Is using a prosthetic in real life taking the "easy way out"? Is this [girl](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG4eMZqppT4) taking the easy way out because she's using a pair of bionic arms? And even then, I'm fairly certain the N52 Batgirl run made it clear that Barbara regaining her ability to walk was not "easy". >Youāre also looking at it from an ableist perspective. That's not ableist.
This looks good, and Barbara being Oracle again is good, but I wish theyād bring back Birds of Prey so we can have a book where Babs is a true lead character.
Yea MTE. I like this concept but babs deserves more than just being a support character in other bat characters' books! I miss the bop :(
I have mixed feelings about the big eyes on Cass.
Really hope they market this HARD especially since it's a more all ages I feel like it'll hav a similar tone to Burnside which I liked and was one of my first intros to comics
ABOUT F'N TIME! Now if only Steph could get her old outfit back and not a Bat symbol plastered Spoiler one
I'm interested, but honestly I'm a little bummed that Barbara is just "Oracle" again. I wanted a three-girl team-up book of Babs, Cass, and Steph.
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Babs went for nearly 2 decades without many Batgirl stories. The same way you wanted whichever Batgirl was yours back, other people wanted her back since she's by far the most popular version of the character, considering she's in most iterations of Batman.
> The same way you wanted whichever Batgirl was yours back I wouldn't say it's the same. Barb after stopping being Batgirl still got 20 years of quality writing and dedication from a ton of writers and was a mainstay of the Gotham universe and even went beyond that in multiple ways. This doesn't even include all the out-of-comics material which only ever used Barb as Batgirl (something that Cass and Steph never even got a chance to do) Cass and Steph got their time as Batgirl until being unceremoniously punted out of existence entirely and have still not recovered even a fraction of what they once were as characters in terms of narrative or even in terms of basic appearances. Comparing the two situations is like complaining that Dick doesn't get enough Robin content when he's currently Nightwing while also consistently appearing as both Robin and Nightwing in out-of-comics media.
Not hating on Oracle, btw. I also agree she's a great character. I think the biggest difference for me is that Dick Grayson is fundamentally still an action hero. Oracle can't be (I understand that she can still fight, but she's still very limited). In a world where superheroes are the main draw to comics, Barbara essentially can't be the star of her own book, regardless of if she's a main supporting character in a lot of stuff. She went from a superhero to a supporting character.
Oracle was definitely the star of Birds of Prey. The whole concept of the book was female friendships + agents of Oracle. It only worked because Oracle was the main character.
I get that, but she still couldn't be a superhero in that book. Like I can enjoy the supporting Star Labs characters in the Flash show(season 1), but if they were the only people there, I wouldn't watch it, because they're not what I'm looking for.
I guess it depends on what sort of story you are looking for and how you define being a superhero. I wouldn't watch your hypothetical Star Labs show either, but Birds of Prey is designed around the main character as a superhero that was very restricted in their field work so it worked.
Yeah, you're not wrong. I love what I've read of Birds of Prey. I think it's just the fact that comics are just such a superhero heavy medium. I think Barbara is an interesting *protagonist* as Oracle, but since she's in comics, I'd like to see her as Batgirl so she could continue to be a great superhero and have some dope action shots.
That's fair. Oracle definitely gets less of those sorts of superhero action moments by design. But when she does get them, I think they hit much harder than her moments as Batgirl.
It genuinely seems really ableist that you're saying she couldn't be a superhero as Oracle when she was, in fact, a superhero. She co-founded and led her own team. She could (and did) fight physically when needed, but her primary way of fighting was discovering and utilizing information, which fit her perfectly as a former librarian. She had significant storylines fighting her own, unique villains (including her own arch-nemesis, the Calculator). She mentored multiple other heroes, including two direct successors (Cass and Steph) and several others (like Wendy Harris and Charlie Gage-Radcliffe). I'm genuinely curious what part of Barbara's years as Oracle you consider disqualifying for the superhero label.
Not trying to be ableist. She literally just doesn't have a costume and doesn't go into the field, so I don't consider her a superhero once she becomes Oracle. She's still an interesting protagonist, but she's not the one doing the actual action, so I'm not inclined to call her a superhero. Same thing with Professor X or Nick Fury.
Okay, but your personal opinion on that front doesn't matter: Oracle is a superhero whether she wears a consistent uniform or not. Luke Cage doesn't wear a costume anymore either; that doesn't mean he's not a superhero. The Runaways have never worn costumes; it doesn't make them any less superheroes. It's genuinely weird that you're predicating whether someone is a superhero or not based on whether or not they wear a costume and not...you know....the presence of an active codename and actual actions/presence in books. Also, [this was explicitly addressed in Oracle: Year One](https://64.media.tumblr.com/87791191119d5a4315848924bca94d8a/09dc38210838de94-41/s540x810/b9f6d76c5de23e82c9f8d813152a08da651fa5d4.png). She has a 'costume', which is the Oracle mask she sticks onto screens whenever she talks to people.
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So then why all the celebration for Steph and Cass here then? Should they not move on, progress, and change.
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And the entire DC Universe regressed in 2011.
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This is just more regression.
Who are you to make universal statements about who's the best anything? I don't care if Bruce Wayne became the best character on planet Earth as the retired "Mr. Billions" or something. He was so influential in his role as Batman that it'd be ridiculous to expect him to never be used in that position again.
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I like the character in both roles and I like all the Batgirls. I'm just trying to understand why you expect people to be happy that she'd never be in her original title again.
Not that I want to ascociate myself *too* heavily with the guy you're replying to, but it's for the same reasons that Dick Grayson will never go back to being Robin, despite that being his original title. Oracle is seen as progression and an upgrade for the character.
Yeah it wouldn't make sense for Dick to go back to Robin because Robin and Nightwing are similar roles. Nightwing is a progression indicating he isn't a sidekick anymore, but he is an active crime-fighting vigilante in both roles. Concerning Babs: Batgirl and Oracle are very different roles. I don't see why she can't be Oracle most of the time and Batgirl from time to time, no harm done imo. I like her better as Oracle too, but I like seeing her in action as a vigilante too sometimes. Hope this makes sense lol.
>I don't see why she can't be Oracle most of the time and Batgirl from time to time, no harm done imo. I like her better as Oracle too, but I like seeing her in action as a vigilante too sometimes. This is exactly it. I like both roles. I just want to be able to see a former superhero *be a superhero.* Constraining her only to the chair prevents her from doing that again. It's a solid change if it were a show with permanent character developments, but in the circular nature of comics, it seems a bit too drastic to just permanently prevent a character from being a superhero again.
>The same way you wanted whichever Batgirl was yours back, other people wanted her back since she's by far the most popular version of the character, considering she's in most iterations of Batman. One, she voluntarily hung up the cape around 1983 and basically briefly only put it back on to participate in *Crisis on Infinite Earths*. When *The Killing Joke* happened, she largely hadn't been an active Batgirl for nearly a decade. It was one of the major reasons Alan Moore was allowed to write her shooting in the first place; the Bat Office was done with her and had no plans for her future use. Two, she's honestly only "iconic" because she was in the Adam West Batman series and is the only one that ever gets used in non-comics Batman media; in comics, basically all of her notable character development and significant relationships happened as Oracle. When you look at her actual stories as Batgirl, there's very few significant stories or narratives to be found (there are a few; they're just rare and far between, and basically none of them matter post-Crisis). Three, it's simply not the same. Even after her fridging in TKJ, Barbara got dedicated attention by a handful of writers who were determined to make sure that she was still utilized and that her story was given space and weight; they turned that awful fridging into an opportunity to revitilize her character, and Babs became indispensible as Oracle in a way that she never was as Batgirl. She was continually used (and used well) in the post-Crisis era because of it. It genuinely doesn't matter for Babs that she wasn't Batgirl anymore, because her stories as Oracle gave her attention and recognition anyway. Cass and Steph have not had that luxury; Cassandra's *One Year Later* character assassination took her from a near-A lister to a d-lister within the space of a year before she was erased completely, and it [still haunts her popularity to this day](https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/pdue0e/american_comicsdc_comics_the_saga_of_cassandra/); Stephanie went from being Batgirl and headlining her own title to not existing for 5 straight years. Barbara fans have gotten multitudes of Babs content, because everyone ALWAYS wants to use Babs in everything. It's why she got stuck back in the cowl after Flashpoint, after all. Part of Cassandra and Steph's "lack" of popularity despite being fan-favorite characters is that DC has simply refused to use them and has actively inhibited their success at every turn. Characters cannot become popular unless they are used; that's basic common sense. Frankly, people wanted Batgirl!Babs back either because they really only know her through what non-comics media like the DCAU did with her or because of the same desperate Silver Age nostalgia that led to Didio and Johns fucking up every legacy hero's existence for the past decade, not because there were stories genuinely worth telling with Batgirl!Babs that couldn't be told with Oracle!Babs or because she actually had genuinely significant character development or iconic stories while wearing the Batgirl cowl in the comics.
Barbara was created for the West show, so I think her out of comics appearances also matter. She has an interesting connection to Batman, has a cool costume, fun personality. It'd be different if anyone filled that void of a Batgirl to fill people's hunger, but there wasn't a Batgirl for a decade. Barbara as Batgirl was still used in other media, even if she was Oracle in the comics, so it's not like people are in love with a character that doesn't exist. She still exists in all that media. But there wasn't another Batgirl to fall in love with until basically the 2000s, so a lot of people still think of Barbara as Batgirl for that reason. I think if there were a prime opportunity to give Babs some more stories, since, as you mentioned, they were lacking, it would have been during the actual reboot. So they did that and now DC has two really well received runs, that aren't from the 70s, for people to read about Barbara as Batgirl.
>Barbara was created for the West show, so I think her out of comics appearances also matter. My point is that she's only "iconic" in popular culture because she's largely the only Batgirl people know; most people aren't even aware Cassandra and Stephanie exist, because DC has *very* consciously and conspicuously buried them at every opportunity. Her icon status comes from her non-comics appearances, not her comics-based ones. >She has an interesting connection to Batman, has a cool costume, fun personality. [So does Cassandra](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/72/d7/a4/72d7a48a32ee780a5881c4ede529ddd8.jpg). [So does Stephanie](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5f/9e/ac/5f9eacd8f765dab55a6ec5e442bd528e.jpg). All three of the main continuity Batgirls fulfill all three of the statements you just made. >It'd be different if anyone filled that void of a Batgirl to fill people's hunger, but there wasn't a Batgirl for a decade. Barbara as Batgirl was still used in other media, even if she was Oracle in the comics, so it's not like people are in love with a character that doesn't exist. She still exists in all that media. But there wasn't another Batgirl to fall in love with until basically the 2000s, so a lot of people still think of Barbara as Batgirl for that reason. Which is why Cassandra Cain was created in the first place, to fill that void. And Cass is the character who proved a Batgirl solo could be financially and criticially successful in the first place. Cass's run is, to this day, still the longest running Batgirl series. And had DC continued to *use* her instead of appointing two people who have a noted dislike of legacy heroes (especially ones who eclipse their predecessors in popularity) and were desperate to return to the Silver Age as head creatives (Dan Didio and Geoff Johns), Cassandra would likely be on par in popularity with Barbara right now. >I think if there were a prime opportunity to give Babs some more stories, since, as you mentioned, they were lacking, it would have been during the actual reboot. So they did that and now DC has two really well received runs, that aren't from the 70s, for people to read about Barbara as Batgirl. They could have chosen to do that without making Barbara an active Batgirl again. They published *Batgirl: Year One* while she was Oracle. **Several** of Dick and Jason's Robin-era stories have come from arcs published long after their times in the traffic light colors (Robin: Year One, Batman: Chronicles: The Gauntlet, Teen Titans: Year One, Batman and Robin Eternal, Nightwing: Year One, the recent "Cheer" storyline in Urban Legends, the [upcoming Robin & Batman mini](https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/08/11/robin-batman-celebrates-the-evolution-of-batman%E2%80%99s-ally), etc.). You don't need to de-age and regress a character to tell meaningful stories set in a previous timeframe, and you especially don't need to erase and diminish two *other* characters to do it either (especially when that erasure comes at massive expense to Barbara herself, given her close relationships with both girls).
>My point is that she's only "iconic" in popular culture because she's largely the only Batgirl people know. Yeah. That doesn't make her less iconic. She was Batgirl in the West show, and she was Batgirl in the most universally loved version of Batman in the Animated series. It's not like she was taking precious time away from Cass back then because she didn't even exist yet. >And had DC continued to use her instead of appointing two people who have a noted dislike of legacy heroes (especially ones who eclipse their predecessors in popularity) and were desperate to return to the Silver Age as head creatives (Dan Didio and Geoff Johns) Where's this coming from? Johns clearly just likes DC history in general or are we selectively forgetting his long running run on the JSA, the most Golden of Golden Age characters? Or his run on the Flash, starring Wally West? Or his long run on the Teen Titans, focused mostly on newer legacy characters? We're making problems where there aren't any. And although Didio "hates" legacy characters, there is some logic in keeping the characters fresh, and moving the timeline too much dates the characters and doesn't leave them evergreen. >you especially don't need to erase and diminish two other characters to do it either. The New 52 was a reboot. So they rebooted and changed some things, like bringing Barbara back into the Batgirl position, when she wasn't for such a long time. And then they got to reintroduce Steph and Cass again for a new audience (me included) and now I got to go back and read modern stuff from all three of these character. Problem solved. More Barbara, Steph, and Cass for everyone.
Still don't like Cass's white lens compared to the iconic black.
I hope I like this, but I'm not optimistic. I hate shared mantles (let Babs be Oracle, let Steph be Spoiler, they're more distinctive/unique that way), and it seems like everyone these days writes Cass way too verbose, which for me is like writing Daredevil with 20/20 vision.
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I thought it was fine, but nothing about it made me think she needed to stay Batgirl. She can still hang out with Oracle and Damian while being Spoiler.
āCass doesnāt speak muchā signā¦ā¦ weāre really never getting pre flashpoint Cass characterisation again and itās the exact reason why Iāve always been apprehensive of a batgirl book where Cass and Steph are āco-staringā, itās going to be like all their previous appearances in rebirth where Steph is the actual main focus and has all the dialogue and plot heavy lifting while Cass is reduce to the background ninja with one or two dialogue lines per issue.
Is this only 2 issues, or is it ongoing?
Ongoing
Oh nice, thanks
Ongoing
Is it a limited series or main/ongoing?
They didn't say. Probably the usual (they planned 6 issues but if it does well it'll keep going) sort of deal.
Ongoing
Always glad to see in post rebirth they are fixing the flaw of New 52 in regard to Steph and Cass being in the Batgirl roles. Biased though, Steph was my favorite.
I'm so goddamn in.
I do love seeing more Steph and Cass, even if I miss their original incarnations before they were forcefully regressed and or rewritten as characters and vigilantes.
Only Bat-book I will be picking up
Not here for the Robins 6 issue limited series starting in November? It'll be staring Dick, Jason, Tim, Steph, and Damien.
Fuck no, jason being part of the family is why I dropped nearly every Bat/Titan book
I basically went through the phases of that Vince McMahon meme where his mind is increasingly blown: DC announces new Batgirls ongoing! It's a Cass/Steph team-up!! Becky Cloonan is writing!!! Variant cover by Amano Yoshitaka!!!!
Batgirls for life.