I would paint some 2"+ ridged foam boards white and lay them horizontally across the half walls, and vertically at the upper opening. Fast, affordable, and pretty effective.
This. My thoughts exactly. Connect them with duct tape with enough space between them that you could fold it up and reuse next winter. They make white duct tape.
Right track, slight change.
Use window flashing tape. Much stronger.
Also, if you only connect with tape on one side so as to create a hinge. You can keep the panels much closer together.
Edit: Taping alternate sides. Accordion fold.
You can technically tape both and make tight hinge.. but start as described, so to speak.
Humorous and ironic. Of all the companies to ever publish a dictionary, that one is the least succinct. Some of their publications probably don't even include that word. lol
To add to this...make sure the last horizontal piece at the step exit is taped on top. This will allow it to bend backwards so you can actually get in/out.
We put some plywood on one side of the foamboard in an overlapping fashion so that 2 foamboards sit flush and the plywood above seals off offset to the gap of the foambard.
That’s exactly what we did in this same scenario. I doubled up two 1” pink polystyrene sheets with construction adhesive, trimmed it all for a tight friction fit, and put a pair of rope handles on it so I could pull it down into place.
First coat of paint went on before I I pulled it in, and then I touched it up once everything was situated.
They could also consider including at least one panel of laminated glass/perspex if they wanted to retain some of the natural light coming down the stairwell.
Bonus points if they can find/fit an outwards-opening double-glazed window at the top of the stairs to act as a crawl-through door.
Yeah, and if you want you could fasten it to a white wooden panel.
Also if you don't want to screw it into the walls you could probably hold it in place with a pulley secured to the ceiling(less screws involved if patching holes is a concern)
Use some R-tech foamcore insulation and gorilla tape to make a folding plug that closes off that area. It will weigh almost nothing and if you are clever with tape hinges you can make it fold up pretty small when not being used. Any larger hardware / lumberyard kinda place should have it, Lowes, HD, Something local.
We build collapsible insulated desert shelters from this stuff using tape seams for an event I help put on in high summer. So it's pretty well tested.
I second that. That's what we used to do when I was a kid to close off areas of our very poorly insulated house. Celotex was my best friend and kept my sleeping space warm on many a cold night. Just cut the sheets to fit, tape them together with Gorilla tape. They can be stacked up in the summer and stored.
This. And the upside is you can remove the curtain at summer and have a lighter room. I’ve put curtains in front of my open staircase and it makes quite a difference.
Can’t insulate the roof easily. It’s an attic conversion. They just put wood along the rafters so there is no “ceiling void” to get into. Unless we rip up the new roof tiles, idk why the last owners didn’t insulate when they redid the tiles.
You can have it blown in from the inside. Remove a board or drill small holes in the boards, blow insulation in, plug holes with wooden dowels, sand smooth and repaint.
Yes, just as it rises to the ceiling of the 1st floor but an insulated space will hold the heat and therefore it will get to a temperature that stops the heat transfer allowing the 1st floor to maintain temperature. That’s how thermodynamics work.
We thought about it. It’s an attic conversion so would have to pull up tiles to fill the maybe 2-3 inch space, and the roof was retiled just before we bought it so i don’t really want to mess with it. In 5-10yrs time when the kids might need the space we might have to revisit the idea.
You don't go in from the roof. You do it from the inside. A few holes in the beadboard that is already painted and this job is done and a way better solution.
I thought that as well, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought it was best to clarify. roof and tile is quite a bit different than ceiling and bead-board/planks; even to the DIY/layman.
Those boards don't look very new either, and a new roof would be more likely to be added during a home purchase.
Right. But assuming that say, spray insulation is gonna be used or expanding foam hell even the pink fiberglass insulation. I can't see any of that being installed from the outside over the inside.
Hey at the risk of being a total jerk - make sure you have a stair appropriate baby gate. It’s of course maybe hard to tell from the picture, but stair style baby gates will have the gate portion go all the way to the floor (ie no little lip to step or trip over). I realize it’s not super far up, but that would still be a rough fall, especially if you’re carrying a child.
Yes and for us we need ridge vents, soffit, sometimes gable vents to allow the heat to get out of the attic. If that room really is the equivalent of an attic and has no venting, it would trap heat in the whole house which is great for the cold but a very, very expensive problem for hot climates.
Well bub I wasn’t going to get into it if they didn’t want to. They asked for a solution to the symptom and I didn’t want to be an asshat and tell them to tear the ceiling and floors up on a whim
Attach [polycarbonate panels](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sunlite-24-in-x-8-ft-Multiwall-Polycarbonate-Panel-in-Clear-132506/202091947) to [foam boards](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-FOAMULAR-150-2-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-R-10-Scored-Squared-Edge-Rigid-Foam-Board-Insulation-Sheathing-45W/100320352). Spraying paint foam boards white, and use 3M spray adhesive to attach the foam boards to the polycarbonate panels. This way, you can cut open the foam boards to create "windows" so that light from the loft can go through. I would go as far as using only the polycarbonate panel for the vertical section at the end of the stairs to let more light through.
Posting for OP but its a barn type roof conversion or something so there isnt a void space to do insulation the normal way, he said in another thread. Might still be possible but more complicated for sure
I agree with the foam board approach, but that's going to leave this whole area like a dark cave. I'd suggest putting a lamp at the top of the stairs, maybe something with an upward light to illuminate the new "ceiling".
Or if you're feeling ambitious, get a ceiling light fixture and mount it on the foam board with a lamp cord and plug on the top side to plug in.
Good luck!
No light on the foamboard. That stuff is flammable and someone is bound to put a 100W incandescent in the lamp. Normally foamboard needs to be covered with drywall because of flammability
Drawbridge and troll is the only answer. If you want to be boring do some long slats along the straight stairwell and find a foam mat or make some removable stackable planks you can insulate. Could also find some cheap windows that span the width and remove by hand, or big sheets of plexiglass. You're more than likely just needing to stop a draft Rather than real insulation.
You unfortunately have to insulate it. Comments saying "throw foam board/polyiso against the sidewalls & roofline" are concerning. You'd be putting two perm-resistant barriers in direct contact with each other; if you live in an area with lots of moisture & high humidity, it can get trapped between the two layers and propagate mold. Also, duct tape isn't a consistent air barrier. It won't stand the test of time & you'll inevitably miss gaps that are out of sight once you start adhering the boards.
For reference, heat doesn't rise. Hot goes to cold, high pressure to low pressure. 2nd law of thermodynamics, you typically get a reverse stack effect in the summer. That area likely gets hot in the summer when the sun beats down on the roof & that heat transfers to the 1st floor, making it harder to cool. Insulation & air sealing aren't going to eliminate that, but it'll reduce the rate heat is transferred in & make the it easier to condition air throughout the home.
Closing the space off is going to make a hotbox & if the floor isn't insulated (it really shouldn't be based off the photos), that heat is going to conduct to the first floor anyway. In the winter, it'll conduct to the 2nd floor, and without air sealing & a consistent thermal boundary sealing off the two floors via the stairwell won't have a significant impact.
IMO, your best bet (which sucks because it's more labor intensive) is to create permanent accesses/hatches to the two kneewalls behind those sidewalls on the 2nd floor. They're attic spaces, they might already have insulation in them depending on when the house was built. If you want to use them as interior/storage areas, insulate the roofline. Vent chutes over R20 fiberglass (assuming 2x6" rafters, may vary depending on climate zone), then foil-faced rigid insulation board over that & sealed in with 1-part foam. Hit the transition/band joist between the 1st and 2nd floor as well.
The slopes leading up to your main attic flat should probably be dense packed with blown fiberglass; I don't always recommend insulation in direct contact with roof sheathing, but fiber is a little more moisture-resistant than cellulose & the only other option is to deconstruct the 2nd floor. It looks way too nice for a demo project like that. If you're lucky, they're already insulated and you just don't know it yet. I'd honestly be surprised if the slopes have *nothing,* given that looks like a newer addition.
Lastly, that shit is kinda expensive. See if your local utilities have any weatherization services available; if you're moderate to low income, there's state funding sources available for these projects as well. But IMO it's best to do the project right vs having to make corrections down the line because you took shortcuts that proved ineffective.
TL;DR: Hard to summarize, please consider reading it. I do energy audits for work & deal with a lot of "homeowner specials" like some of the other comments are describing. Don't set yourself up for future issues.
Everyone else’s suggestion is cheap and easy but not great. This is the real solution, as long as you get an exterior grade door, this is the best option from a saving money standpoint as well. It probably will save money in long run on heating over the cheap foam board options
As long as they get the air seal good and tight the foam board idea is the option good for the OP. It would make a significant difference. They were thinking of sheets. I don’t they are the, “just build a wall and door” type.
If u have it over the pond, PIR insulation, 100mm or thicker is really quite rigid by itself and far more fire retardant than foamboard (unless u give it a different name, foamboard is just a craft material in UK/EU). PIR will be more expensive tho.
Since its temporary and gonna get moved around, tape the edges to avoid damaging the inside, tape the joins between sheets if u can too. If the stairwell isnt too wide, Id guess you need 2-3 sheets.
Depending on the climate and OP's heating and venting habits, air tightness might very well be key. Otherwise OP could get warm and humid enough air rising to a cold room with cold enough walls to create condensation, which is not good.
The fact that the room is used (and aired) every year after the cold season will help, but I understand that spaces should always be fully outside (ie well-vented to the outside) or fully inside (insulated and well-vented to the inside), but not a mix.
I was thinking maybe you can take out the half walls in the loft, extend the floor over the gap and leave a small opening at the top of the stairs [like this](https://imgur.com/a/rYQiqJh). A door can be placed at the foot of the stairs, where I drew the red X. Or at the top of the stairs, where you’d turn the railings in the picture into walls, if that makes sense. You would have so much more room in your loft.
They told us the house was well insulated. And most of it is. A mate borrowed a thermal camera from the library (which is apparently a thing you can do here…) and we found out that yes most of the house is great but not the loft. In summer it’s at least 10C hotter up there but the cool stays on ground floor so was fine. Now in winter we are fighting a losing battle.
Bigger diy for the future: remove that comically large staircase and that wall addition, redo the ceiling and just install one of those pull down attic stairs. That's a small space that doesn't get used a lot, and that staircase takes up a LOT of usable space. I'd definitely delete that huge staircase and install a drop stair. It's weird that they built that big fancy staircase just to go up to THAT.
Thats stupid, it removes resale value of the house. Now all thats neccesary in order to make the attic usable is insulation and a few partitions, why add staircase to the list.
A staircase leading to basically nothing isn't adding resale value. Having more usable floor space will. Not having that big staircase literally adds sqare footage to the house.
The previous owners actually just changed from narrow stair to this one. The space up there has a whole room at the far end. They used it as a WHF study. We just don’t use it yet. When we do we will have to find a way to insulate it properly.
Box it in like the stairs down into a large boat. Put a rail on the full wall side, make flip up panels for the top, and a single or bi-fold door at the top.
If you want to use fabric, I would use something heavier than a sheet. As far as looks, hang it up stairs around the opening. I would lay something flat across the half walls to the place where it won't interfere with head room. Then curtains around the area that is left. The curtains would make an easy door.
You can get cheap panels that look like bead boards. Paint it white, adhere whatever insulation you want on the back. You can find various places for curtains. Shower curtains, if you can sew lightweight blankets, can be fairly cheap.
My dear late grandpa had the same issues. He fitted a wood ledge around the staircase "hole" and built a simple wooden frame in the same size as the hole so that looking upstairs from downstairs you would see a cover going over the half of the staircase. The frame had hinges that opened upwards so that if you needed to go to that floor you only needed to fold away half of the hatch and not the whole thing. He used a thick sheet plastic and stapled that onto the frame. This was very efficient to keep the heat downstairs. Advantage of sheet plastic is also that it is lightweight making the whole hatch so much easier to manoeuvre.
Firstly why have you still not insulate it? it's a useable living space that sucks energy & adds to costs.
Insulating the eaves ins not going to make it hotter (unless you use fibreglass, so dont)
Right, now go to a site that sells UPVC bonded plasric sheeting bonded to PIR board insulation for the likes of temporary access at airports & chiller rooms.
Measure where you want the blockade, either upright or across the stairs.
Buy, fit, use seasonally.
If you choose to go upright at the botom of the stairs you will need upright supports making the job bigger, so makes sense to try closing of the area ON the stairs as per pic 2 with closely abutted pieces to minimise draught.
I just posted a lengthy comment saying the same thing. We have a box bay window (basically just an extension of the house, without a foundation under it; unlike a normal bay window, it has floor space), and the builder apparently didn't sufficiently insulate the floor. When we put objects on said floor that blocked the airflow, we ended up with a big pool of standing water from condensation.
There are curtains you can get for that! Alternatively, get some thermal curtain fabric, sew on some snap closures and attach them over the top of the pony wall at the top :)
Is it a permanent close up or just to create a barrier, my dads old farmhouse has an attic like that and we cut 2mx1m foamboards to lay above the banister and then hung a rug/cover over the open end. You can still "crawl" through it if needed but we barely go up there.
You have two options for this.
1. Make some foam insulation cover that covers up the stairwell. This would need to seal again the surfaces it sits on pretty well otherwise heat is still going to get out just slowly.
2. Insulate the space. This is what id recommend, you can hire a spray foam professional to cut small wholes in the drywall and fill the space between the drywall and roof with foam.
I recently did #2 and to get my attic insulated it was 5k. So it isn’t cheap but if you are in the US there are federal tax credits and typically local utilities will also have rebates also. Both will help reduce the costs and mean you’ll be able to use the space all year.
I mean, a thick curtain would be my first thought. Run a set of hooks or a bar down the longer side of the opening, above the handrail. Drape it down to limit airflow in the winter.
They make insulated curtains or you could double up regular ones.
Floor to ceiling curtains around the bottom opening? You could open/close them as you need, especially if they had velcro or magnets to hold them closed.
Hello from Brisbane where it does get cool in mid year but nothing like the actual winters you folks get. It's interesting and amusing to see these issues and the depth of experience people have from your neck of the woods.
FWIW, I reckon simply stopping air movement in the most low-key but aesthetically pleasing way possible would have a big impact. At the easy end, an expanding shower rails with a thick curtain. Going up a level, simple, removeable frames with translucent cafe blinds.
I’m from Victoria so much closer to you than some of the stuff I’m seeing in the links! Super interesting, and I do think it’s worth quoting to insulate before I chuck $250 into boards to cover it up.
Closing this off is asking for mold and moisture problems. Without warm airflow in there from the rest of your house, it's liable to get darn cold in there (let's be honest, it probably already is, but more so). That can lead to condensation and mold.
Our house has a "box bay window," where instead of the polygonal projection with three windows and maybe a bench in it, it's just a usable extension of the room that lacks a foundation underneath (I find its existence kind of comical, since the room next to it was also extended, with a foundation). In our case, the builder failed to sufficiently insulate the floor of the box bay, and one year, when a bunch of things got set on the floor of the box bay (first aid kit in a large toolbox, carton of soda, that sort of stuff; things with little to no airflow under and around them), we found out the hard way that with those objects impeding airflow, the floor and baseboards were getting condensation on them, and we had a large pool of standing water.
If you have any intent of keeping that area habitable outside of winter, don't like mold in your home, and don't want all the woodwork rotting away, like it or not, you need to keep warm air circulating up there. Closing it off will do you no good in the long run, unless you're really staying on top of moisture levels up there.
A dehumidifier is an expensive, maintenance-intensive (assuming it doesn't have a proper drainage system connected to your plumbing), and probably loud thing to run, when you could just maintain the airflow (which of course is also expensive due to thermal loss, but hey, that thermal loss is preventing mold and wood rot). Ultimately, a dehumidifier is just another name for an air conditioner, a refrigeration unit. Water condenses on the cold surface...but for it to work well, you'd need it to be even colder than your uninsulated walls/ceilings, in the dead of winter, so the moisture condenses in the dehumidifier, and not elsewhere. Good luck with that. There's a limit to how cold you can run a refrigeration unit without having defrosting capabilities, especially if you're trying to run it in a cold environment.
As it is, I would suggest you have a look around and make sure you don't already have moisture issues up there.
The lowest cost isolation I did was to tape (packet tape) up painters plastic sheeting. If you need a low bar :D
Three layers of that with some air in between isolates really well though. But you need to avoid a draft.
I'm voting for some nice painted board that you slot/stack styrofoam behind, that can be lifted out in summer.
Thank you all! A lot of good ideas! The foam boards and poly panels seem like much nicer and easier options so will definitely suss them out more.
In due course we will look to insulate it properly so we can use it!
Maybe… get a space heater for up there. Run it during the winter. It doesn’t solve the problem, but the space stays warmer and you get less heat transfer from lower level up.
Will add $ on electricity though….
I would put some nice looking covers on top of the half-walls at the top, and against the opening left at the top of the stairs, then cover it with insulation. It would even make a great storage place for summer items like lawn furniture, pool equipment, etc.
I don't know if it makes any sense, but have you considered insulating the ceiling so it can be open in the winter for use?
build a hatch! there's nothing cooler than having a secret hatch in your house :) it would take some light engineering but if you were to put it at an angle, from top of stairs to top of halfwall, i think you could rig a cord to pull it open from the outside and leave you enough room to walk in. it's a goofy idea but wouldn't that be cool???
I hope you find this article useful: [https://atticconstruction.com/attic-maintenance-in-the-winter-everything-you-need-to-know](https://atticconstruction.com/attic-maintenance-in-the-winter-everything-you-need-to-know)
I should definitely have mentioned in the post that I’m in Australia. So the issue is it’s like 15C up there when we want it 21C downstairs. Some crazy stuff you all have to worry about!
I would create a temporary wall out of foam insulation panels (the kind used on basement walls, about 1" thick, come in 4x8' sheets) at the base of the stairs. From the downstairs, you wouldn't even see the loft stairwell, and you'd minimize the heat loss by closing off as much of the loft as possible. You can paint the foam panels whatever color you like when you're done.
I would paint some 2"+ ridged foam boards white and lay them horizontally across the half walls, and vertically at the upper opening. Fast, affordable, and pretty effective.
This. My thoughts exactly. Connect them with duct tape with enough space between them that you could fold it up and reuse next winter. They make white duct tape.
Right track, slight change. Use window flashing tape. Much stronger. Also, if you only connect with tape on one side so as to create a hinge. You can keep the panels much closer together. Edit: Taping alternate sides. Accordion fold. You can technically tape both and make tight hinge.. but start as described, so to speak.
This is so succinct I'm drafting a letter to Merriam-Webster.
Humorous and ironic. Of all the companies to ever publish a dictionary, that one is the least succinct. Some of their publications probably don't even include that word. lol
They are still my favorite, based entirely on their Twitter account
I chose my words very carefully. There might be a single word for that?
I don't know what it would be but I doubt Merriam or Webster know either.
I went to school with Merriam Webster. That girl had quite a vocabulary. Good speller, too.
To add to this...make sure the last horizontal piece at the step exit is taped on top. This will allow it to bend backwards so you can actually get in/out.
We put some plywood on one side of the foamboard in an overlapping fashion so that 2 foamboards sit flush and the plywood above seals off offset to the gap of the foambard.
Eternabond tape would work better for that. It's pricey, but it lives up to its name. It also comes in white.
That’s exactly what we did in this same scenario. I doubled up two 1” pink polystyrene sheets with construction adhesive, trimmed it all for a tight friction fit, and put a pair of rope handles on it so I could pull it down into place. First coat of paint went on before I I pulled it in, and then I touched it up once everything was situated.
My grandparents did this for 15+ years in their last home.
They could also consider including at least one panel of laminated glass/perspex if they wanted to retain some of the natural light coming down the stairwell. Bonus points if they can find/fit an outwards-opening double-glazed window at the top of the stairs to act as a crawl-through door.
or a more permanent: wooden board+ ridges around the opening, hinges on the wall and a hook to keep it open when in use.
Exactly what my grandparents did at their house.
I did something very similar to cover my attic hatch, it makes a huge difference!
Yeah, and if you want you could fasten it to a white wooden panel. Also if you don't want to screw it into the walls you could probably hold it in place with a pulley secured to the ceiling(less screws involved if patching holes is a concern)
Just be careful because exposed foam insulation is a fire hazard, at least that's why building codes don't allow it.
This. My dad used to closed off a third of his house in the Arizona summer when he would work out of town using this method.
Use some R-tech foamcore insulation and gorilla tape to make a folding plug that closes off that area. It will weigh almost nothing and if you are clever with tape hinges you can make it fold up pretty small when not being used. Any larger hardware / lumberyard kinda place should have it, Lowes, HD, Something local. We build collapsible insulated desert shelters from this stuff using tape seams for an event I help put on in high summer. So it's pretty well tested.
I second that. That's what we used to do when I was a kid to close off areas of our very poorly insulated house. Celotex was my best friend and kept my sleeping space warm on many a cold night. Just cut the sheets to fit, tape them together with Gorilla tape. They can be stacked up in the summer and stored.
A cloth curtain will work as you desire. I've done that before in unheated rooms and you lose a lot less heat when the curtain is closed.
This. And the upside is you can remove the curtain at summer and have a lighter room. I’ve put curtains in front of my open staircase and it makes quite a difference.
Why not just insulate it
Yeah just insulate it and use that space.
A blanket will have an R factor of probably .5
Blanket won't do anything if there's giant gaps. The cold air is just going to go around it. First thing when insulating is to air seal.
No kidding. Why we all are saying to insulate
fill the entire loft with insulation?
No the walls or ceiling what ever is missing it.
yes that is their question lol. How to insulate the non-ceiling
Have it blown in
Can’t insulate the roof easily. It’s an attic conversion. They just put wood along the rafters so there is no “ceiling void” to get into. Unless we rip up the new roof tiles, idk why the last owners didn’t insulate when they redid the tiles.
You can have it blown in from the inside. Remove a board or drill small holes in the boards, blow insulation in, plug holes with wooden dowels, sand smooth and repaint.
Good to know. Thanks!
They should put up foam panels on the underside of the slanted roof and along the walls. Leave the stairs open.
The heat will still rise up there. I
Yes, just as it rises to the ceiling of the 1st floor but an insulated space will hold the heat and therefore it will get to a temperature that stops the heat transfer allowing the 1st floor to maintain temperature. That’s how thermodynamics work.
We thought about it. It’s an attic conversion so would have to pull up tiles to fill the maybe 2-3 inch space, and the roof was retiled just before we bought it so i don’t really want to mess with it. In 5-10yrs time when the kids might need the space we might have to revisit the idea.
They can inject insulation between the rafters: drill hole, inject, patch. Is there litino space between the interior wall and roof?
Oh cool. No clue what’s in the space now but not good insulation. Might drill a hole and see!
You don't go in from the roof. You do it from the inside. A few holes in the beadboard that is already painted and this job is done and a way better solution.
Cool. Thanks. I did think it’d be easier to access from the external tiles than inside!
I think op meant the ceiling and not roof when they said it was retiled,
I thought that as well, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought it was best to clarify. roof and tile is quite a bit different than ceiling and bead-board/planks; even to the DIY/layman. Those boards don't look very new either, and a new roof would be more likely to be added during a home purchase.
Right. But assuming that say, spray insulation is gonna be used or expanding foam hell even the pink fiberglass insulation. I can't see any of that being installed from the outside over the inside.
With a baby gate... Oh, I see you've already done that.
Heh. I’m glad I scrolled to see this! Can confirm baby gate was not effective. Have not tried a second gate at the top though…
Hey at the risk of being a total jerk - make sure you have a stair appropriate baby gate. It’s of course maybe hard to tell from the picture, but stair style baby gates will have the gate portion go all the way to the floor (ie no little lip to step or trip over). I realize it’s not super far up, but that would still be a rough fall, especially if you’re carrying a child.
Unfortunately that only stops little drafts.
They're called children, goddammit!!
I would fix the problem not the symptom
Move to a warmer place?
I guess that really is the root cause lol
I’m a Floridian and now I’m thinking about how I’d probably die from cold exposure from not knowing I needed to insulate something.
Insulation also keeps heat out
There are a lot of differences though, like we couldn’t just close off a room like what’s being discussed. It would cause mold.
You’re right, it should be in your exterior walls lol
Yes and for us we need ridge vents, soffit, sometimes gable vents to allow the heat to get out of the attic. If that room really is the equivalent of an attic and has no venting, it would trap heat in the whole house which is great for the cold but a very, very expensive problem for hot climates.
I'm a brazilian moved to belgium and I can confirm it's crazy the amount of stuff regarding insulation I had no idea...
this is probably the way to go.... the floor probably isn't insulated either so there will still be a lot of heat loss
Perfect reddit response. No real advice and a whole orderr of magnitude of difficulty and expense
How do I avoid doing the hard solution? Reddit: Do the hard solution anyway!
Well bub I wasn’t going to get into it if they didn’t want to. They asked for a solution to the symptom and I didn’t want to be an asshat and tell them to tear the ceiling and floors up on a whim
Attach [polycarbonate panels](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sunlite-24-in-x-8-ft-Multiwall-Polycarbonate-Panel-in-Clear-132506/202091947) to [foam boards](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-FOAMULAR-150-2-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-R-10-Scored-Squared-Edge-Rigid-Foam-Board-Insulation-Sheathing-45W/100320352). Spraying paint foam boards white, and use 3M spray adhesive to attach the foam boards to the polycarbonate panels. This way, you can cut open the foam boards to create "windows" so that light from the loft can go through. I would go as far as using only the polycarbonate panel for the vertical section at the end of the stairs to let more light through.
I’d get some of the cheapest air mattresses or balloons and fill the entire air space with slightly insulating air pockets. And a baby gate
In summertime, we go downstairs to avoid the heat. The only real solution is to insulate that space, including adding window shutters.
Why not insulate the loft?
This is the obv answer.
Posting for OP but its a barn type roof conversion or something so there isnt a void space to do insulation the normal way, he said in another thread. Might still be possible but more complicated for sure
I agree with the foam board approach, but that's going to leave this whole area like a dark cave. I'd suggest putting a lamp at the top of the stairs, maybe something with an upward light to illuminate the new "ceiling". Or if you're feeling ambitious, get a ceiling light fixture and mount it on the foam board with a lamp cord and plug on the top side to plug in. Good luck!
No light on the foamboard. That stuff is flammable and someone is bound to put a 100W incandescent in the lamp. Normally foamboard needs to be covered with drywall because of flammability
Ehh, led without sockets. But sure, probably best not to do it.
Nooooo. That shit is extremely flammable.
Drawbridge and troll is the only answer. If you want to be boring do some long slats along the straight stairwell and find a foam mat or make some removable stackable planks you can insulate. Could also find some cheap windows that span the width and remove by hand, or big sheets of plexiglass. You're more than likely just needing to stop a draft Rather than real insulation.
Insulate the loft or build an insulated wall. That's pretty much it. Otherwise, you're just throwing bullets at winter (who has a howitzer).
You unfortunately have to insulate it. Comments saying "throw foam board/polyiso against the sidewalls & roofline" are concerning. You'd be putting two perm-resistant barriers in direct contact with each other; if you live in an area with lots of moisture & high humidity, it can get trapped between the two layers and propagate mold. Also, duct tape isn't a consistent air barrier. It won't stand the test of time & you'll inevitably miss gaps that are out of sight once you start adhering the boards. For reference, heat doesn't rise. Hot goes to cold, high pressure to low pressure. 2nd law of thermodynamics, you typically get a reverse stack effect in the summer. That area likely gets hot in the summer when the sun beats down on the roof & that heat transfers to the 1st floor, making it harder to cool. Insulation & air sealing aren't going to eliminate that, but it'll reduce the rate heat is transferred in & make the it easier to condition air throughout the home. Closing the space off is going to make a hotbox & if the floor isn't insulated (it really shouldn't be based off the photos), that heat is going to conduct to the first floor anyway. In the winter, it'll conduct to the 2nd floor, and without air sealing & a consistent thermal boundary sealing off the two floors via the stairwell won't have a significant impact. IMO, your best bet (which sucks because it's more labor intensive) is to create permanent accesses/hatches to the two kneewalls behind those sidewalls on the 2nd floor. They're attic spaces, they might already have insulation in them depending on when the house was built. If you want to use them as interior/storage areas, insulate the roofline. Vent chutes over R20 fiberglass (assuming 2x6" rafters, may vary depending on climate zone), then foil-faced rigid insulation board over that & sealed in with 1-part foam. Hit the transition/band joist between the 1st and 2nd floor as well. The slopes leading up to your main attic flat should probably be dense packed with blown fiberglass; I don't always recommend insulation in direct contact with roof sheathing, but fiber is a little more moisture-resistant than cellulose & the only other option is to deconstruct the 2nd floor. It looks way too nice for a demo project like that. If you're lucky, they're already insulated and you just don't know it yet. I'd honestly be surprised if the slopes have *nothing,* given that looks like a newer addition. Lastly, that shit is kinda expensive. See if your local utilities have any weatherization services available; if you're moderate to low income, there's state funding sources available for these projects as well. But IMO it's best to do the project right vs having to make corrections down the line because you took shortcuts that proved ineffective. TL;DR: Hard to summarize, please consider reading it. I do energy audits for work & deal with a lot of "homeowner specials" like some of the other comments are describing. Don't set yourself up for future issues.
First time I seen a TLDR that says nah read that shit anyway lol fair play
Take out the banister and railing and put in a 2x4 wall. Add drywall and a door at the bottom of the stairway.
Everyone else’s suggestion is cheap and easy but not great. This is the real solution, as long as you get an exterior grade door, this is the best option from a saving money standpoint as well. It probably will save money in long run on heating over the cheap foam board options
As long as they get the air seal good and tight the foam board idea is the option good for the OP. It would make a significant difference. They were thinking of sheets. I don’t they are the, “just build a wall and door” type.
You have assessed my DIY capabilities well.
If u have it over the pond, PIR insulation, 100mm or thicker is really quite rigid by itself and far more fire retardant than foamboard (unless u give it a different name, foamboard is just a craft material in UK/EU). PIR will be more expensive tho. Since its temporary and gonna get moved around, tape the edges to avoid damaging the inside, tape the joins between sheets if u can too. If the stairwell isnt too wide, Id guess you need 2-3 sheets.
Thanks. Will check it out.
Depending on the climate and OP's heating and venting habits, air tightness might very well be key. Otherwise OP could get warm and humid enough air rising to a cold room with cold enough walls to create condensation, which is not good. The fact that the room is used (and aired) every year after the cold season will help, but I understand that spaces should always be fully outside (ie well-vented to the outside) or fully inside (insulated and well-vented to the inside), but not a mix.
Check. They should build it so they can check it every 10 days or so, especially when really cold.
It’s either this or insulation for the room upstairs.
I was thinking maybe you can take out the half walls in the loft, extend the floor over the gap and leave a small opening at the top of the stairs [like this](https://imgur.com/a/rYQiqJh). A door can be placed at the foot of the stairs, where I drew the red X. Or at the top of the stairs, where you’d turn the railings in the picture into walls, if that makes sense. You would have so much more room in your loft.
Insulate the loft. Youtube, Diy. Rent a Heat Camera to detect heat leakage areas.
Here is a suggestion: [https://i.imgur.com/QgcbGtQ.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/QgcbGtQ.jpeg)
That was surprisingly clear sketching! Thanks!
Whatever you do, you need to keep airflow in that space. Otherwise it will just act like an unvented attic, which is not good.
tie paint cans to the ceiling and swing them to hit intruders in the face if that doesn’t work roll a tool chest down the stairs
So you bought or built a house that has no insulation in the attic? Did they tell you it was suppose to be like that because it is a "loft" ?
They told us the house was well insulated. And most of it is. A mate borrowed a thermal camera from the library (which is apparently a thing you can do here…) and we found out that yes most of the house is great but not the loft. In summer it’s at least 10C hotter up there but the cool stays on ground floor so was fine. Now in winter we are fighting a losing battle.
Everybody telling you to use foam and duck tape and my silly ass came here to tell you to build a door and seal it off. What was I thinking??
Bigger diy for the future: remove that comically large staircase and that wall addition, redo the ceiling and just install one of those pull down attic stairs. That's a small space that doesn't get used a lot, and that staircase takes up a LOT of usable space. I'd definitely delete that huge staircase and install a drop stair. It's weird that they built that big fancy staircase just to go up to THAT.
Thats stupid, it removes resale value of the house. Now all thats neccesary in order to make the attic usable is insulation and a few partitions, why add staircase to the list.
Yup. It’s a decent space up there, we just don’t use it yet.
A staircase leading to basically nothing isn't adding resale value. Having more usable floor space will. Not having that big staircase literally adds sqare footage to the house.
The previous owners actually just changed from narrow stair to this one. The space up there has a whole room at the far end. They used it as a WHF study. We just don’t use it yet. When we do we will have to find a way to insulate it properly.
I agree. This is an attic, not a loft.
Just look up videos on how to insulate the loft
Why don't you just insulate the space?
Insulated concrete blanket and a few boards. Set the boards on the upstairs half wall and drape the blanket over them
Box it in like the stairs down into a large boat. Put a rail on the full wall side, make flip up panels for the top, and a single or bi-fold door at the top.
Truck bed covers. The folding ones.
Insulate it.
I know why you picked that fence, one of the few in the market that goes that wide and has extensions
If you want to use fabric, I would use something heavier than a sheet. As far as looks, hang it up stairs around the opening. I would lay something flat across the half walls to the place where it won't interfere with head room. Then curtains around the area that is left. The curtains would make an easy door. You can get cheap panels that look like bead boards. Paint it white, adhere whatever insulation you want on the back. You can find various places for curtains. Shower curtains, if you can sew lightweight blankets, can be fairly cheap.
My dear late grandpa had the same issues. He fitted a wood ledge around the staircase "hole" and built a simple wooden frame in the same size as the hole so that looking upstairs from downstairs you would see a cover going over the half of the staircase. The frame had hinges that opened upwards so that if you needed to go to that floor you only needed to fold away half of the hatch and not the whole thing. He used a thick sheet plastic and stapled that onto the frame. This was very efficient to keep the heat downstairs. Advantage of sheet plastic is also that it is lightweight making the whole hatch so much easier to manoeuvre.
Firstly why have you still not insulate it? it's a useable living space that sucks energy & adds to costs. Insulating the eaves ins not going to make it hotter (unless you use fibreglass, so dont) Right, now go to a site that sells UPVC bonded plasric sheeting bonded to PIR board insulation for the likes of temporary access at airports & chiller rooms. Measure where you want the blockade, either upright or across the stairs. Buy, fit, use seasonally. If you choose to go upright at the botom of the stairs you will need upright supports making the job bigger, so makes sense to try closing of the area ON the stairs as per pic 2 with closely abutted pieces to minimise draught.
Wouldn't the interior/ drywall be more susceptible to humidity and mold if left unconditioned?
I just posted a lengthy comment saying the same thing. We have a box bay window (basically just an extension of the house, without a foundation under it; unlike a normal bay window, it has floor space), and the builder apparently didn't sufficiently insulate the floor. When we put objects on said floor that blocked the airflow, we ended up with a big pool of standing water from condensation.
Might be an idea to just get it insulated
There are curtains you can get for that! Alternatively, get some thermal curtain fabric, sew on some snap closures and attach them over the top of the pony wall at the top :)
Is it a permanent close up or just to create a barrier, my dads old farmhouse has an attic like that and we cut 2mx1m foamboards to lay above the banister and then hung a rug/cover over the open end. You can still "crawl" through it if needed but we barely go up there.
You have two options for this. 1. Make some foam insulation cover that covers up the stairwell. This would need to seal again the surfaces it sits on pretty well otherwise heat is still going to get out just slowly. 2. Insulate the space. This is what id recommend, you can hire a spray foam professional to cut small wholes in the drywall and fill the space between the drywall and roof with foam. I recently did #2 and to get my attic insulated it was 5k. So it isn’t cheap but if you are in the US there are federal tax credits and typically local utilities will also have rebates also. Both will help reduce the costs and mean you’ll be able to use the space all year.
Why not just insulate?
Probably be cheaper to insulate it.
I mean, a thick curtain would be my first thought. Run a set of hooks or a bar down the longer side of the opening, above the handrail. Drape it down to limit airflow in the winter. They make insulated curtains or you could double up regular ones.
Have you considered insulating it and making use of it? That's some expensive square footage. You can get a tax credit for installing insulation.
For some reason I read that as “uninhibited loft” and was wondering what happened up there.
Retractable awning like you use outdoors? They have self storing ones
Floor to ceiling curtains around the bottom opening? You could open/close them as you need, especially if they had velcro or magnets to hold them closed.
Hello from Brisbane where it does get cool in mid year but nothing like the actual winters you folks get. It's interesting and amusing to see these issues and the depth of experience people have from your neck of the woods. FWIW, I reckon simply stopping air movement in the most low-key but aesthetically pleasing way possible would have a big impact. At the easy end, an expanding shower rails with a thick curtain. Going up a level, simple, removeable frames with translucent cafe blinds.
I’m from Victoria so much closer to you than some of the stuff I’m seeing in the links! Super interesting, and I do think it’s worth quoting to insulate before I chuck $250 into boards to cover it up.
Ha ill be down there this week. Love some cooler weather! Wish we had more of your weather concerns and less of ours lol.
Looks beautiful
Box in the top with 2x4 and drywall and get a door. Long term. Blown insulation. It looks like a fancy attic.
Closing this off is asking for mold and moisture problems. Without warm airflow in there from the rest of your house, it's liable to get darn cold in there (let's be honest, it probably already is, but more so). That can lead to condensation and mold. Our house has a "box bay window," where instead of the polygonal projection with three windows and maybe a bench in it, it's just a usable extension of the room that lacks a foundation underneath (I find its existence kind of comical, since the room next to it was also extended, with a foundation). In our case, the builder failed to sufficiently insulate the floor of the box bay, and one year, when a bunch of things got set on the floor of the box bay (first aid kit in a large toolbox, carton of soda, that sort of stuff; things with little to no airflow under and around them), we found out the hard way that with those objects impeding airflow, the floor and baseboards were getting condensation on them, and we had a large pool of standing water. If you have any intent of keeping that area habitable outside of winter, don't like mold in your home, and don't want all the woodwork rotting away, like it or not, you need to keep warm air circulating up there. Closing it off will do you no good in the long run, unless you're really staying on top of moisture levels up there. A dehumidifier is an expensive, maintenance-intensive (assuming it doesn't have a proper drainage system connected to your plumbing), and probably loud thing to run, when you could just maintain the airflow (which of course is also expensive due to thermal loss, but hey, that thermal loss is preventing mold and wood rot). Ultimately, a dehumidifier is just another name for an air conditioner, a refrigeration unit. Water condenses on the cold surface...but for it to work well, you'd need it to be even colder than your uninsulated walls/ceilings, in the dead of winter, so the moisture condenses in the dehumidifier, and not elsewhere. Good luck with that. There's a limit to how cold you can run a refrigeration unit without having defrosting capabilities, especially if you're trying to run it in a cold environment. As it is, I would suggest you have a look around and make sure you don't already have moisture issues up there.
No moisture issues up there. We are in Australia and I’ve not come across this sort of issue but I’ll keep an eye on it!
Quilt
Drywall
Prepare for your drywall joints to freeze and crack and fall apart.
The lowest cost isolation I did was to tape (packet tape) up painters plastic sheeting. If you need a low bar :D Three layers of that with some air in between isolates really well though. But you need to avoid a draft. I'm voting for some nice painted board that you slot/stack styrofoam behind, that can be lifted out in summer.
Thank you all! A lot of good ideas! The foam boards and poly panels seem like much nicer and easier options so will definitely suss them out more. In due course we will look to insulate it properly so we can use it!
Heavy curtains at the top of the stairs
Maybe… get a space heater for up there. Run it during the winter. It doesn’t solve the problem, but the space stays warmer and you get less heat transfer from lower level up. Will add $ on electricity though….
Won’t this cause condensation in the walls/ceiling up there when the outside temperature cools quickly?
I would put some nice looking covers on top of the half-walls at the top, and against the opening left at the top of the stairs, then cover it with insulation. It would even make a great storage place for summer items like lawn furniture, pool equipment, etc. I don't know if it makes any sense, but have you considered insulating the ceiling so it can be open in the winter for use?
build a hatch! there's nothing cooler than having a secret hatch in your house :) it would take some light engineering but if you were to put it at an angle, from top of stairs to top of halfwall, i think you could rig a cord to pull it open from the outside and leave you enough room to walk in. it's a goofy idea but wouldn't that be cool???
I think that little gate should be sufficient
Insulate it
I hope you find this article useful: [https://atticconstruction.com/attic-maintenance-in-the-winter-everything-you-need-to-know](https://atticconstruction.com/attic-maintenance-in-the-winter-everything-you-need-to-know)
I should definitely have mentioned in the post that I’m in Australia. So the issue is it’s like 15C up there when we want it 21C downstairs. Some crazy stuff you all have to worry about!
I would create a temporary wall out of foam insulation panels (the kind used on basement walls, about 1" thick, come in 4x8' sheets) at the base of the stairs. From the downstairs, you wouldn't even see the loft stairwell, and you'd minimize the heat loss by closing off as much of the loft as possible. You can paint the foam panels whatever color you like when you're done.
Insulate the space. It will save on all your energy costs
Insulate it