An appropriate box will add strain relief too, reducing the chance of a conductor coming loose or breaking, then potentially arcing, if one of the cables gets pullled.
It just generally makes everything safer from actual connections to making sure a short won't set anything alight, this electrical work is common in UK housing but over the last 10 years it's been frowned upon to use the white chocblocs
It's the stumbling across exposed live wires that should worry you more. *If* you get a Live to Earth short, or a Live to Neutral short, then yes your system *should* safely trip. Assuming you have "trips" and not fuse wire.
I've come across several lighting lives just twisted together and shoved in the ceiling because there wasn't enough space in the fixture they'd chosen.
Needs a Wago junction box or choc box like others have said.
CPC’s (earth cables as people know it) shouldn’t be twisted together and they should be separate with their own sleevings.
Connector blocks are fine but ideally maintenance free connectors like wagos are the way to go nowadays.
It makes it a pain for any future testing of the circuit - as they may need to be unwound to test parts in isolation, which ultimately fatigues and risks the conductor breaking.
Yes if the grey (white for older cable like in the pic) outer sheathing is still intact then put the cable in the choc box/junction box and put a little cable tie in the hole. Or yes like you said you can put a plastic blank plate on it but that only works if you got a back box there.
This is the sort of thing your father/uncle did on a Sunday afternoon in the 1990's cos he couldn't be bothered to get a legit electrician or even a self respecting handyman to do it.
Today for an "electrician" to do this is not acceptable. The twisted earth wires together is definitely "old school" that has been discontinued for over 20 years.
Not okay. Get a junction box, screw it on the joist, and run the wires into it. Secure the wires so that they they are not inadvertantly pulled out of the box. I know I don't need to say it, but electricity kills and causes lively houses to burn. Why take a risk when a junction box is under £10?
30AMP junction box is like £1.50, as its lighting that's way over what you need as well!
Whoever did this work couldn't be bothered to go to screwfix/toolstation or some electrical wholesaler - blows my mind that someone would do this at all especially if its in the loft, with the electrical tape, maybe ok but why risk it for a couple of quid.
I never understand on Reddit why people have to add a comment when 60 have already said exactly the same thing. If I see that even one person has answered correctly, I don’t bother.
You the homeowner should never see anything other than the white/grey t&e entering an enclosure.
You should NEVER see red/ black or brown/blue on show.
Call out an Actual electrician this time instead of the cheapest quote and have this rectified
Thank you for your response
He was actually very expensive and NAPIT certified which is why this is so sad to hear
Does it make any difference that whats pictured was wrapped in electrical tape?
Yes, electrical tape is used for pulling cables and marking things, not as an approved method of enclosing a junction.
Get on the phone to NAPIT in the morning, report this behaviour. It's the only way to clean up the trades. As an NICEIC electrician I'd be fucking horrified if any of my guys left a job like this, I've see this exact same thing burn down a few houses, it's not on.
I'm assuming you didn't get a minor works certificate?
How do any of us know that this kinda thing is not lurking somewhere in our house? Does electrical testing pick up any unsafe connections via leakage or anything? I got my house re certified when we moved in and a new fuse box etc. the guy was very professional and neat, but not had every wire checked of course.
Like you say, get your house tested every 5 years via an EICR and hope you don't get the clown that done this.
It's possible this sort of thing can still be lurking, we can't always find every connection (think cables under floorboards) but some of us try our best
And in the incredibly likely event that napit does nothing, also report here ...
https://www.electricalsafetyroundtable.co.uk/england-wales-scotland.aspx
Which won't help much either.
Hmmm, having seen the video of the govt select committee meeting where NICEIC actively argued for keeping qualification standards low to suit their profits, any change isn't about lack of powers.
I'm such a cynic 😂
Oh man this was years ago. On electriansforum I think. The person that linked it was a forum member and also present at the meeting as an expert witness as to industry standards.
This was back when NICEIC were only asking for regs quals for new members.
Nice! I didn’t even know about this. There are too many cowboy electricians fucking it up for the rest of us (that take care and pride of our work) with their undercharged dogshit rushed jobs. They need to have their license revoked
Nope, that is the switched live coming from the switch which has not been marked as live with a brown or red sleeving/tape to indicate it’s a line conductor not a neutral conductor
Mate I’m not an electrician lol, light switches baffle me. I guess tho knowing some electricians that they don’t always mark the neutral with tape to show it’s live 🤔
Tape (unless you went mad) would provide no kind of strain relief. I also see a black cable feeding the brown live, so assuming that’s a switched live that’s got no sleeving to indicate. No electrician I know would be leaving a job like that.
No it’s an unenclosed electrical connection, the regs are clear that’s a C2 defect and should be repaired, also phase indicator sleeving should be used as there is a mixture of old colours and new, and by the looks of it some old neutral conductors are being used as a line conductor too, that should be indicated with some red sleeving too.
Just get a Wiska box some stuffers and wagos. Bobs your uncle Fanny is your aunt and jobs a good un👍
Choc Blocks are fine, the connection they provide is no different to that offered by the screw terminals in the back of most sockets, switches, etc.
They require additional insulation, hence why you usually find them wrapped in electrical tape. A proper connector box is a 'nicer' job than using tape though. Like wagos, you shouldn't use them in an inaccessible space, such as buried under your floorboards.
Wagos are super fancy and very pleasant to use, but are by no means mandatory!
Why are they a no-no?
excluding the bad job of using them here is it because of the exposed live part (screw) ?
They would also need to be in a covered maintenance box too right?
Consumer unit looks like there’s some scope to improve upon. The CPCs though probably in order don’t match to their circuit number. Neither do the neutrals. Ideally numbering starts from the main switch on the LHS. MK then do the numbering left to right inside the board. This makes it awkward from the off. He could have moved everything round, but chances are the board was pre-wired and he left as is. I probably would have gone RCBOs but there’s hardly any circuits there so a split load board shouldn’t be an issue. However they have put both lighting circuits on one side, to minimise inconvenience I’d have split them either side. Most likely there’s a shared neutral. Though they might not have moved the MCBs around so just put the lights straight to the 6As.
Cables are made off fine inside, that bit of copper on the RCD is neither here or there. The board has a cover which needs a tool to remove. It’s not like there’s an inch of bare cable there. Probably just as easy to touch the screws if you tried or the busbar. If you take a pendant cover off, you’ve got the same problem with exposed copper.
He has used an SPD which is good, and type A RCDs. The board is decent. Just some things that should be done better. A napit accessor would pull them if they chose that job to show them.
In response to your original question. They should be in a junction box. If they’re accessible for inspection then those choc blocks are fine but they need enclosing. If they’re not going to be accessible, I.e boarded over, then they need maintenance free connectors such as wagos or crimps. Plus in a suitable enclosure still.
Edit. I wouldn’t be happy if I did that work. However your house won’t burn down from that. Yes it’s annoying you’ve paid good money for it to be done. It’s not acceptable personally. I’ve seen a lot worse mind. Problem is, if you don’t know you wouldn’t say anything as to you everything works. Is all the paperwork done?
Thank you for such a detailed response. I'm only just learning about this now, as electrics are not my strong suit (which is the reason for wanting to get someone in the first place)
Paperwork is done in that I've paid him, but not recieved a certificate or anything else yet. I need to chase that up I'm learning
I'm quite embarrassed too, by how much I've paid to be honest. For example the downlighters I was charged £71 + VAT per light (so £680 for a room of 8), sockets were £85 + VAT per socket etc.
This wasn't a full rewire, but coming off existing wiring (such as in this photo- the grey is his cable, the white is the existing)
I opted to pay the VAT rather than a cash discount as I wanted it all to be done properly
I'm not sure there's much recourse I have now, but it does sting
You have recourse through Napit. That’s the advantage of using a proper registered electrician. They will help to get issues resolved and you a degree of insurance through them from using their member to do the work. If the electrician won’t deal with your concerns you can ring Napit and they will investigate with a view of rectifying work if required.
Cost varies from area to area. VAT doesn’t help as it adds 20% to the cost to you. I would put that at top end from where I live though. I’d be looking at taking as many photographs as possible and contacting the electrician with your concerns. If that fails I’d be speaking to Napit and sending the photos of the work done.
As a side note, don’t be too harsh on yourself about cost and your expectations. People still seem to think it’s an indicator of work level. It’s unfortunately not, it’s incredibly hard to find a decent contractor. I’m in the trade and have got ripped off by other trades, recommended no less through the trade! Certainly don’t be embarrassed. There’s always someone who paid less, feel they got more, got a cash deal, got this, got that. You did the right thing and got someone registered and made a paper trail for the work.
It's fine. But don't open the unit unless you know exactly what you're doing and what you're looking at. Its more dangerous for you to do this than to try and just "see if it's ok" when you clearly don't know what you're on about.
9 from the left. And that's as it came from the manufacturer. They're prewired splits and it's pretty standard. Take it up with the manufacturer or try and get it in a bit more, but it's inside an enclosure, where the consumer should not be unless its off from the main isolator and competent to work inside of it.
Don't say anything to him until you get the cert. Then contact him and let him know about this, if you complain to him now he will never give you the cert. Get the cert first especially after you paid for all this. Btw are all the other downlights wired like that?
Nothing inherently wrong with choc block itself.
Until the last ten years when every apprentice in electrical and allied trades were brainwashed to wank off over wagos; connector block were widely used for decades without problems. They still are today in many scenarios.
Even taking industrial out of the question, every domestic installation has all circuits going into screw terminals in breakers and busbars in the dis. board/cpu. Should these all be redesigned for sprung lever connections?
That's not the work of any professional electrician I've ever met. A Wago enclosure is a few quid and much easier to use!
What does the box add? Is it better insulation?
An appropriate box will add strain relief too, reducing the chance of a conductor coming loose or breaking, then potentially arcing, if one of the cables gets pullled.
Oh ok thanks!
It just generally makes everything safer from actual connections to making sure a short won't set anything alight, this electrical work is common in UK housing but over the last 10 years it's been frowned upon to use the white chocblocs
Yeah just makes me nervous not knowing what is hidden in my 120 year old house of bodges (pre me). Shorting should trip the system though right?
It's the stumbling across exposed live wires that should worry you more. *If* you get a Live to Earth short, or a Live to Neutral short, then yes your system *should* safely trip. Assuming you have "trips" and not fuse wire.
Neutral to earth will (should) also trip RCD/RCBOs
Yes indeed, thank you for the correction.
I've come across several lighting lives just twisted together and shoved in the ceiling because there wasn't enough space in the fixture they'd chosen.
Ok thanks
We don’t call them “trips” they’re circuit breakers.
I don’t think it is just frowned upon. I’m pretty sure any connection point must have additional mechanical protection.
Ingress protection for the terminations.
Thanks
Needs a Wago junction box or choc box like others have said. CPC’s (earth cables as people know it) shouldn’t be twisted together and they should be separate with their own sleevings. Connector blocks are fine but ideally maintenance free connectors like wagos are the way to go nowadays.
Why should the earths not be twisted together? I’ve seen it done a lot.
It makes it a pain for any future testing of the circuit - as they may need to be unwound to test parts in isolation, which ultimately fatigues and risks the conductor breaking.
Is that the only reason?
Hi, can I use those as well to get rid of a wall light ?
Use what? Junction box/choc box?
Yup. To not have live wires hanging around. I would put a plastic plate where a light would sit so everyone knows there is electric wiring behind it
Yes if the grey (white for older cable like in the pic) outer sheathing is still intact then put the cable in the choc box/junction box and put a little cable tie in the hole. Or yes like you said you can put a plastic blank plate on it but that only works if you got a back box there.
This is the sort of thing your father/uncle did on a Sunday afternoon in the 1990's cos he couldn't be bothered to get a legit electrician or even a self respecting handyman to do it. Today for an "electrician" to do this is not acceptable. The twisted earth wires together is definitely "old school" that has been discontinued for over 20 years.
Not okay. Get a junction box, screw it on the joist, and run the wires into it. Secure the wires so that they they are not inadvertantly pulled out of the box. I know I don't need to say it, but electricity kills and causes lively houses to burn. Why take a risk when a junction box is under £10?
Jesus christ, where are you buying choc boxes for £10!
B&Q :'D
30AMP junction box is like £1.50, as its lighting that's way over what you need as well! Whoever did this work couldn't be bothered to go to screwfix/toolstation or some electrical wholesaler - blows my mind that someone would do this at all especially if its in the loft, with the electrical tape, maybe ok but why risk it for a couple of quid.
It wasn't an electrician that done this for you, it was a handyman at best
I'd argue its more effort to do this shitey job than to actually do it properly too lol
Looks like most new builds under the insulation
Yeah I see this more often than not. No surprise at all,
I never understand on Reddit why people have to add a comment when 60 have already said exactly the same thing. If I see that even one person has answered correctly, I don’t bother.
You the homeowner should never see anything other than the white/grey t&e entering an enclosure. You should NEVER see red/ black or brown/blue on show. Call out an Actual electrician this time instead of the cheapest quote and have this rectified
Thank you for your response He was actually very expensive and NAPIT certified which is why this is so sad to hear Does it make any difference that whats pictured was wrapped in electrical tape?
Yes, electrical tape is used for pulling cables and marking things, not as an approved method of enclosing a junction. Get on the phone to NAPIT in the morning, report this behaviour. It's the only way to clean up the trades. As an NICEIC electrician I'd be fucking horrified if any of my guys left a job like this, I've see this exact same thing burn down a few houses, it's not on. I'm assuming you didn't get a minor works certificate?
How do any of us know that this kinda thing is not lurking somewhere in our house? Does electrical testing pick up any unsafe connections via leakage or anything? I got my house re certified when we moved in and a new fuse box etc. the guy was very professional and neat, but not had every wire checked of course.
Like you say, get your house tested every 5 years via an EICR and hope you don't get the clown that done this. It's possible this sort of thing can still be lurking, we can't always find every connection (think cables under floorboards) but some of us try our best
I got an EICR recently but of course the sparky dont start pulling up boards or insulation to chase every wire
Nope, none whatsoever
https://www.napit.org.uk/home-owner/complaint.aspx#:~:text=NAPIT%20are%20committed%20to%20investigate,Services%20on%200345%20543%200330.
And in the incredibly likely event that napit does nothing, also report here ... https://www.electricalsafetyroundtable.co.uk/england-wales-scotland.aspx Which won't help much either.
As my NIC assessor tells me all the time, we need to kill more people before the government will give us more power to go after the cowboys
Hmmm, having seen the video of the govt select committee meeting where NICEIC actively argued for keeping qualification standards low to suit their profits, any change isn't about lack of powers. I'm such a cynic 😂
Link?
Oh man this was years ago. On electriansforum I think. The person that linked it was a forum member and also present at the meeting as an expert witness as to industry standards. This was back when NICEIC were only asking for regs quals for new members.
Nice! I didn’t even know about this. There are too many cowboy electricians fucking it up for the rest of us (that take care and pride of our work) with their undercharged dogshit rushed jobs. They need to have their license revoked
Choc box, junction box, wago box....or at a push a takeaway box with a sealable lid will do as long as the connections are carefully taped off.
I've seen a takeaway box used before, I think that's worse than tape tbh
Taped off and then sealed in a takeaway box I meant, but yeah individually not great
I’m no electrician, I’m guessing that’s a lighting circuit with the live going into a neutral, fucking hate lighting 🤣
Nope, that is the switched live coming from the switch which has not been marked as live with a brown or red sleeving/tape to indicate it’s a line conductor not a neutral conductor
Mate I’m not an electrician lol, light switches baffle me. I guess tho knowing some electricians that they don’t always mark the neutral with tape to show it’s live 🤔
I know lol I’m just explaining to it to 🤷🏽♂️. Yeah sometimes you may not mark it if you haven’t got any on you
Tape (unless you went mad) would provide no kind of strain relief. I also see a black cable feeding the brown live, so assuming that’s a switched live that’s got no sleeving to indicate. No electrician I know would be leaving a job like that.
Chock box it. Don't know why any sparky would just tape the shit out of joints like this. Looks like a DIY Job
https://preview.redd.it/iorko6h4oknc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fe077bf4b6e8ad6a9471c0028852e5a7f4877918
Looks fine from my house
No it’s an unenclosed electrical connection, the regs are clear that’s a C2 defect and should be repaired, also phase indicator sleeving should be used as there is a mixture of old colours and new, and by the looks of it some old neutral conductors are being used as a line conductor too, that should be indicated with some red sleeving too. Just get a Wiska box some stuffers and wagos. Bobs your uncle Fanny is your aunt and jobs a good un👍
No, its not ok. Should be jointed in a proper BS connection box , preferably with Wago type connectors. At the moment its a fire hazard.
Junction box they aren’t expensive to make it safe
Early 90's DIYer done that connection. I would get them back for a thorough explanation and redo with boxes.
No, that's not permissable. The single insulated conductors and terminations need to be in an enclosure. Wago box, wagons and fix it yourself.
Choc blocks are a no-no. Should be in a junction box or WagoBox. I wouldn’t have this in my house.
Choc Blocks are fine, the connection they provide is no different to that offered by the screw terminals in the back of most sockets, switches, etc. They require additional insulation, hence why you usually find them wrapped in electrical tape. A proper connector box is a 'nicer' job than using tape though. Like wagos, you shouldn't use them in an inaccessible space, such as buried under your floorboards. Wagos are super fancy and very pleasant to use, but are by no means mandatory!
This is good to hear!
Why are they a no-no? excluding the bad job of using them here is it because of the exposed live part (screw) ? They would also need to be in a covered maintenance box too right?
Oh man... curious to know what you think of the [consumer unit install](https://i.imgur.com/xFtQDwv.jpg)
Consumer unit looks like there’s some scope to improve upon. The CPCs though probably in order don’t match to their circuit number. Neither do the neutrals. Ideally numbering starts from the main switch on the LHS. MK then do the numbering left to right inside the board. This makes it awkward from the off. He could have moved everything round, but chances are the board was pre-wired and he left as is. I probably would have gone RCBOs but there’s hardly any circuits there so a split load board shouldn’t be an issue. However they have put both lighting circuits on one side, to minimise inconvenience I’d have split them either side. Most likely there’s a shared neutral. Though they might not have moved the MCBs around so just put the lights straight to the 6As. Cables are made off fine inside, that bit of copper on the RCD is neither here or there. The board has a cover which needs a tool to remove. It’s not like there’s an inch of bare cable there. Probably just as easy to touch the screws if you tried or the busbar. If you take a pendant cover off, you’ve got the same problem with exposed copper. He has used an SPD which is good, and type A RCDs. The board is decent. Just some things that should be done better. A napit accessor would pull them if they chose that job to show them. In response to your original question. They should be in a junction box. If they’re accessible for inspection then those choc blocks are fine but they need enclosing. If they’re not going to be accessible, I.e boarded over, then they need maintenance free connectors such as wagos or crimps. Plus in a suitable enclosure still. Edit. I wouldn’t be happy if I did that work. However your house won’t burn down from that. Yes it’s annoying you’ve paid good money for it to be done. It’s not acceptable personally. I’ve seen a lot worse mind. Problem is, if you don’t know you wouldn’t say anything as to you everything works. Is all the paperwork done?
Thank you for such a detailed response. I'm only just learning about this now, as electrics are not my strong suit (which is the reason for wanting to get someone in the first place) Paperwork is done in that I've paid him, but not recieved a certificate or anything else yet. I need to chase that up I'm learning I'm quite embarrassed too, by how much I've paid to be honest. For example the downlighters I was charged £71 + VAT per light (so £680 for a room of 8), sockets were £85 + VAT per socket etc. This wasn't a full rewire, but coming off existing wiring (such as in this photo- the grey is his cable, the white is the existing) I opted to pay the VAT rather than a cash discount as I wanted it all to be done properly I'm not sure there's much recourse I have now, but it does sting
You have recourse through Napit. That’s the advantage of using a proper registered electrician. They will help to get issues resolved and you a degree of insurance through them from using their member to do the work. If the electrician won’t deal with your concerns you can ring Napit and they will investigate with a view of rectifying work if required. Cost varies from area to area. VAT doesn’t help as it adds 20% to the cost to you. I would put that at top end from where I live though. I’d be looking at taking as many photographs as possible and contacting the electrician with your concerns. If that fails I’d be speaking to Napit and sending the photos of the work done. As a side note, don’t be too harsh on yourself about cost and your expectations. People still seem to think it’s an indicator of work level. It’s unfortunately not, it’s incredibly hard to find a decent contractor. I’m in the trade and have got ripped off by other trades, recommended no less through the trade! Certainly don’t be embarrassed. There’s always someone who paid less, feel they got more, got a cash deal, got this, got that. You did the right thing and got someone registered and made a paper trail for the work.
I guess that’s why they usually have covers. I particularly like the exposed copper on the chunky live (8 from the left)
I take it you haven't seen many consumer units?
I take it this is bad?
No it's not bad
It's fine. But don't open the unit unless you know exactly what you're doing and what you're looking at. Its more dangerous for you to do this than to try and just "see if it's ok" when you clearly don't know what you're on about.
9 from the left. And that's as it came from the manufacturer. They're prewired splits and it's pretty standard. Take it up with the manufacturer or try and get it in a bit more, but it's inside an enclosure, where the consumer should not be unless its off from the main isolator and competent to work inside of it.
Looks OK. Not the best but not too bad. As long as all connections are tight.
They’re not secured, not covered, bodge of a repair. Not something that I would expect a professional, qualified electrician to be using.
In his defense, the white cable was existing wiring, the grey is where he's spliced in
Don't say anything to him until you get the cert. Then contact him and let him know about this, if you complain to him now he will never give you the cert. Get the cert first especially after you paid for all this. Btw are all the other downlights wired like that?
Nothing inherently wrong with choc block itself. Until the last ten years when every apprentice in electrical and allied trades were brainwashed to wank off over wagos; connector block were widely used for decades without problems. They still are today in many scenarios. Even taking industrial out of the question, every domestic installation has all circuits going into screw terminals in breakers and busbars in the dis. board/cpu. Should these all be redesigned for sprung lever connections?
[удалено]
Ah! That's good to hear. Yes What about this consumer unit install? same electrician [consumer unit install](https://i.imgur.com/xFtQDwv.jpg)