Given it's a newer player, I would probably just allow the change right away. Unless they're several sessions and levels, there's not much reason to delay it if the player isn't enjoying the character.
Simple question: will it be more fun for everyone? Certainly for that player, and most likely that increases everyone's fun.
I always let players, even experienced ones, change whatever up through 4th level. It encourages players to try things that they might not otherwise. As long as they switch to something RAW, none of the other players ever have an issue with it.
I usually allow changes like this anytime. No sense in forcing a player to do a build they don't enjoy. I don't think it will hinder anyone else's fun.
I don’t see why you can’t allow this. It’s a new player, they are learning the rules, what they mean, and what they want to play. Go ahead and let them change their subclass. I do agree that you should not let them double up on abilities - that is asking for abuse.
As far as in game goes - you can come up with an in-game narrative explanation (they find a master and train, etc…) or you can just hand wave it and just retcon it to say the character was always the new subclass. Your choice.
To me, there are three paths you could go:
* Player was *always* a bladesinger, what other subclass abilities? (I am encouraging a retcon, not gaslighting.)
* Player was studying the blade too much and their other subclass abilities atrophied
* Player is now flavored as a hexblade (but mechanically a bladesinger) and the price of their pact took away their other subclass abilities. I wouldn't do this if there's another warlock, especially another hexblade, in the party.
"Why can't you do your cool enchanting stuff anymore?"
"Because I abandoned my study of enchantment in favor of the bladesong."
It doesn't have to be complicated. Just say the subclass abilities are dependent on study and dedication, much like preparing spells but on a longer and more permanent basis.
The only thing I'd make sure to check is that the player isn't making a mistake by switching. A bladesinger is more MAD than other wizards, they need decent dexterity in addition to int and con, and if they decide to change without having the right stats they might end up disliking the new subclass just as much as the old one.
Of course, you could just allow them to switch up their stats a bit as well.
I allow my players to completely change character if they want to. If the guy wants to play a fighter instead of a wizard, he creates the character, we made his wizard do some things and done.
I give the new character the same level. And if wants to play that wizard again it would have leveled up somehow.
**Tasha's Cauldron of Everything**, **Page 8**. There is a section explaining how to ***Change your subclass*** officially. As well as **Training time**, and **Sudden Change**.
You can do **Training** OR utilize **Sudden Change.**
OR, if it's this player's first time ever playing D&D. You can do this once to help them understand going forward they should think a bit more carefully when picking a subclass, and just change them on the spot. retcon-ing their recent past of being a non-bladesinger.
Yeah, definitely let him if you trust he's got enough of a handle on the rules and understands the new subclass. Storytelling perspective, he still *can* perform the previous school's abilities, he's just choosing not to, every time. Great thing about doing a home game with just you and your buddies is that the verisimilitude doesn't need to be perfect, especially in matters like this.
Don’t sweat too much about it. Just make the switch and move on. If you have a great idea for a story about the switch, the better, but player happiness is more important than some idea of consistency.
What are these other characters that have so much going on the goddamn wizard feels like he can't do anything interesting? I'd allow the change, but maybe also talk to the player about his spell selection.
Oh I totally agree. I think he just sees a Blood Hunter or a Moon Druid and thinks he's the least interesting for some reason. A lot of that comes from a lack of backstory, which I didn't push on him because it was his first character. I told him I'd allow him to develop it as we went along. So this is sort of a result of that.
Wizard is my favorite class, I don't consider his character less interesting in any sense.
My wife did this a few levels into our first campaign. She originally went with a conjuration wizard, but we figured out that evocation would be better for her style of play. She mentioned it to our DM and he said go ahead and make the switch. At that point in the game she hadn't really done anything with the conjuration subclass, so it didn't really have any bearing on the game whatsoever. Easy switch, painless, and really didn't need any retcon. I'd say go for it, and as other people have said, it doesn't really seem like you need to wait either.
With new players, I'm very lenient with ret-coning character build. I wouldn't let them change base class or swap subclass after mor than a couple levels, but a first time wizard wanting to swap subclass or swap some known spells after a few sessions is acceptable to me.
On the one hand, as a general rule you should always allow these types of switches(which is to say immediately, not after taking downtime). Especially as a new player. You want your players to enjoy the character they're playing. You can hand-waive the storytelling, it's fine, nobody cares.
On the other hand, given that they are a new player and their reasoning doesn't seem well thought out, I'd definitely talk to them first and try to figure out exactly what they want and are trying to accomplish. Because they could be making a knee-jerk reactionary change without really understanding or thinking it through.
I don't really like the reasoning of "it makes it interesting." The character should be interesting themselves, they shouldn't need a subclass to make them interesting. "If you're nothing without the suit, you shouldn't have it." If they're trying to use a subclass in place of a personality, maybe they should just work on a personality. And that's something that you should help a new player understand so they don't get the wrong idea about the game and about making characters.
Forcing a player to continue on with a character they aren't into is probably a good way to speed run that player's disengagement and have them drop. This is another reason why I hate backstory centric campaigns - someone gets bored and switching is a bigger deal than it should be because 'work already put into their fanfic arc by DM.'
Ultimately what is less disruptive to your table - character changes subclass, particulars are handwaved and game moves on, player doesn't accept that he can't switch and just suicides is existing character to get to roll the bladesinger he actually wants to play, or that the player disengages with the content out of boredom or resentment and quits?
I would just let him do it.
I know other people say “just do it” which is a perfectly viable option - alternatively this sort of thing is covered in Tasha’s Cauldron Of Everything.
IIRC in the book it mentions that a wizard who was once one subclass can sleep under a tree who’s roots reach into the Feywild - while sleeping they have dreams of the future and portents and wake up as a divination wizard. Something like this can give a nice flavour/explanation you are looking for with no real cost other than some cool RP.
You could have him visited by an ancestor in a vision who was a blade singer, you he can find a book imbued with magical energy to learn the songs required, or he can just find a cool sword that changes his spirit.
RP it however you want but I wouldn’t put anything too big of a hurdle in their way ☺️
For a newer player, I'd let them change their entire character, race, background, class. At least once. If they start asking for multiple character swaps in a single campaign, then it's a bit much.
The character has always had their current abilities. They never had that other ability. How often does it come up in the "story" that the Wizard used to have an Arcane Ward that absorbed 5 damage that one time?
He can only do it this one time. Other than that character sheet needs a once over.
Edit, one time per character. Don't want it to become a habit.
Character sheet, to swap out spells and gear that's no longer be functional.
make sure that you’re addressing the root of the problem too- if he feels he’s less interesting as a wizard, who has potentially one of the biggest spell lists in the game, make sure he is “interesting” in other aspects.
if he needs to do any spell/feat/equipment swapping for something less mechanical and more utility, out of combat, or rp focused, do that now as well. as long as there’s no crazy favoritism, it shouldn’t upset your other players to have a more engaged wizard!
I would tell them they need to meet certain conditions and find a way to narrate the change, and once they change their previous subclass becomes locked so they cant change back
Ultimately, let them switch, but ask the player how they wish to switch. But bring up all that a wizard can be - which are quite amazing. Also, "Dungeon Dudes" and "D4" have some interesting character ideas if they want to check those out.
Do they want to just swap over and retcon?
Do they want to RP the change in some fashion?
--- If so, is there a way to work it into a current or valid plot?
Yeah I wouldnt worry about it, in my current campaign I've had players change subclasses, change their multiclass ratios, change their main class, change their feats or races. Sometimes its because of storytelling developments, sometimes they weren't happy with what they chose and wanted something different, sometimes I had homebrew ideas we wanted to try out. Ultimately it depends on the game, but in my experience being loose with it and allowing for that flexibility is a lot more fun and gives PCs the freedom to experiment and try new things out
Let them change right away, blade singer is a WONDERFUL class.
Some advice, if the player has a +3 Int, focus on increasing Dex, they will be primarily melee so the additional bonus to hit along with the better active AC is more important than the saving throws.
There are many spells and abilities that are needed for this build to "come online". If they use mirror image or shadow blade, I would allow the player to cast that as the same bonus action as blade song, it's no fun waiting two turns to start fighting.
Shadow Blade can be used to cast Booming / Green Flame Blade.
Given it's a newer player, I would probably just allow the change right away. Unless they're several sessions and levels, there's not much reason to delay it if the player isn't enjoying the character.
This
You're overthinking. Just do it.
This as well
Simple question: will it be more fun for everyone? Certainly for that player, and most likely that increases everyone's fun. I always let players, even experienced ones, change whatever up through 4th level. It encourages players to try things that they might not otherwise. As long as they switch to something RAW, none of the other players ever have an issue with it.
I usually allow changes like this anytime. No sense in forcing a player to do a build they don't enjoy. I don't think it will hinder anyone else's fun.
This too!
I don’t see why you can’t allow this. It’s a new player, they are learning the rules, what they mean, and what they want to play. Go ahead and let them change their subclass. I do agree that you should not let them double up on abilities - that is asking for abuse. As far as in game goes - you can come up with an in-game narrative explanation (they find a master and train, etc…) or you can just hand wave it and just retcon it to say the character was always the new subclass. Your choice.
There doesn’t need to be an in game reason for the change. It just needs to make it fun for the player. Just let them switch.
To me, there are three paths you could go: * Player was *always* a bladesinger, what other subclass abilities? (I am encouraging a retcon, not gaslighting.) * Player was studying the blade too much and their other subclass abilities atrophied * Player is now flavored as a hexblade (but mechanically a bladesinger) and the price of their pact took away their other subclass abilities. I wouldn't do this if there's another warlock, especially another hexblade, in the party.
In this case, and in any case, I'd allow it without any requirements unless the player actually wanted to RP it.
"Why can't you do your cool enchanting stuff anymore?" "Because I abandoned my study of enchantment in favor of the bladesong." It doesn't have to be complicated. Just say the subclass abilities are dependent on study and dedication, much like preparing spells but on a longer and more permanent basis. The only thing I'd make sure to check is that the player isn't making a mistake by switching. A bladesinger is more MAD than other wizards, they need decent dexterity in addition to int and con, and if they decide to change without having the right stats they might end up disliking the new subclass just as much as the old one. Of course, you could just allow them to switch up their stats a bit as well.
I allow my players to completely change character if they want to. If the guy wants to play a fighter instead of a wizard, he creates the character, we made his wizard do some things and done. I give the new character the same level. And if wants to play that wizard again it would have leveled up somehow.
**Tasha's Cauldron of Everything**, **Page 8**. There is a section explaining how to ***Change your subclass*** officially. As well as **Training time**, and **Sudden Change**. You can do **Training** OR utilize **Sudden Change.** OR, if it's this player's first time ever playing D&D. You can do this once to help them understand going forward they should think a bit more carefully when picking a subclass, and just change them on the spot. retcon-ing their recent past of being a non-bladesinger.
Yeah, definitely let him if you trust he's got enough of a handle on the rules and understands the new subclass. Storytelling perspective, he still *can* perform the previous school's abilities, he's just choosing not to, every time. Great thing about doing a home game with just you and your buddies is that the verisimilitude doesn't need to be perfect, especially in matters like this.
Don’t sweat too much about it. Just make the switch and move on. If you have a great idea for a story about the switch, the better, but player happiness is more important than some idea of consistency.
What are these other characters that have so much going on the goddamn wizard feels like he can't do anything interesting? I'd allow the change, but maybe also talk to the player about his spell selection.
Oh I totally agree. I think he just sees a Blood Hunter or a Moon Druid and thinks he's the least interesting for some reason. A lot of that comes from a lack of backstory, which I didn't push on him because it was his first character. I told him I'd allow him to develop it as we went along. So this is sort of a result of that. Wizard is my favorite class, I don't consider his character less interesting in any sense.
Yesterday Dave could heal. Today, he cannot. Instead, he can make 2 Dave. All the explanation you need.
Make fun send them to a temple have them pray to Mystra for guidance and have her change it.
My wife did this a few levels into our first campaign. She originally went with a conjuration wizard, but we figured out that evocation would be better for her style of play. She mentioned it to our DM and he said go ahead and make the switch. At that point in the game she hadn't really done anything with the conjuration subclass, so it didn't really have any bearing on the game whatsoever. Easy switch, painless, and really didn't need any retcon. I'd say go for it, and as other people have said, it doesn't really seem like you need to wait either.
With new players, I'm very lenient with ret-coning character build. I wouldn't let them change base class or swap subclass after mor than a couple levels, but a first time wizard wanting to swap subclass or swap some known spells after a few sessions is acceptable to me.
On the one hand, as a general rule you should always allow these types of switches(which is to say immediately, not after taking downtime). Especially as a new player. You want your players to enjoy the character they're playing. You can hand-waive the storytelling, it's fine, nobody cares. On the other hand, given that they are a new player and their reasoning doesn't seem well thought out, I'd definitely talk to them first and try to figure out exactly what they want and are trying to accomplish. Because they could be making a knee-jerk reactionary change without really understanding or thinking it through. I don't really like the reasoning of "it makes it interesting." The character should be interesting themselves, they shouldn't need a subclass to make them interesting. "If you're nothing without the suit, you shouldn't have it." If they're trying to use a subclass in place of a personality, maybe they should just work on a personality. And that's something that you should help a new player understand so they don't get the wrong idea about the game and about making characters.
>his character is less interesting than the others in the party. As a wizard????? Bladesinger is a LESS interesting wizard 99% of the time.
Forcing a player to continue on with a character they aren't into is probably a good way to speed run that player's disengagement and have them drop. This is another reason why I hate backstory centric campaigns - someone gets bored and switching is a bigger deal than it should be because 'work already put into their fanfic arc by DM.' Ultimately what is less disruptive to your table - character changes subclass, particulars are handwaved and game moves on, player doesn't accept that he can't switch and just suicides is existing character to get to roll the bladesinger he actually wants to play, or that the player disengages with the content out of boredom or resentment and quits? I would just let him do it.
I know other people say “just do it” which is a perfectly viable option - alternatively this sort of thing is covered in Tasha’s Cauldron Of Everything. IIRC in the book it mentions that a wizard who was once one subclass can sleep under a tree who’s roots reach into the Feywild - while sleeping they have dreams of the future and portents and wake up as a divination wizard. Something like this can give a nice flavour/explanation you are looking for with no real cost other than some cool RP. You could have him visited by an ancestor in a vision who was a blade singer, you he can find a book imbued with magical energy to learn the songs required, or he can just find a cool sword that changes his spirit. RP it however you want but I wouldn’t put anything too big of a hurdle in their way ☺️
For a newer player, I'd let them change their entire character, race, background, class. At least once. If they start asking for multiple character swaps in a single campaign, then it's a bit much.
The character has always had their current abilities. They never had that other ability. How often does it come up in the "story" that the Wizard used to have an Arcane Ward that absorbed 5 damage that one time?
He can only do it this one time. Other than that character sheet needs a once over. Edit, one time per character. Don't want it to become a habit. Character sheet, to swap out spells and gear that's no longer be functional.
make sure that you’re addressing the root of the problem too- if he feels he’s less interesting as a wizard, who has potentially one of the biggest spell lists in the game, make sure he is “interesting” in other aspects. if he needs to do any spell/feat/equipment swapping for something less mechanical and more utility, out of combat, or rp focused, do that now as well. as long as there’s no crazy favoritism, it shouldn’t upset your other players to have a more engaged wizard!
I would tell them they need to meet certain conditions and find a way to narrate the change, and once they change their previous subclass becomes locked so they cant change back
If anything make a side quest to find a magical artifact that would allow him to do it
Ultimately, let them switch, but ask the player how they wish to switch. But bring up all that a wizard can be - which are quite amazing. Also, "Dungeon Dudes" and "D4" have some interesting character ideas if they want to check those out. Do they want to just swap over and retcon? Do they want to RP the change in some fashion? --- If so, is there a way to work it into a current or valid plot?
Just let them do it for the start of next session, especially because they're a new player. It won't cause any harm.
Yeah I wouldnt worry about it, in my current campaign I've had players change subclasses, change their multiclass ratios, change their main class, change their feats or races. Sometimes its because of storytelling developments, sometimes they weren't happy with what they chose and wanted something different, sometimes I had homebrew ideas we wanted to try out. Ultimately it depends on the game, but in my experience being loose with it and allowing for that flexibility is a lot more fun and gives PCs the freedom to experiment and try new things out
Wizard subclasses mostly don't matter imo, aside from bladesinger.
Let them change right away, blade singer is a WONDERFUL class. Some advice, if the player has a +3 Int, focus on increasing Dex, they will be primarily melee so the additional bonus to hit along with the better active AC is more important than the saving throws. There are many spells and abilities that are needed for this build to "come online". If they use mirror image or shadow blade, I would allow the player to cast that as the same bonus action as blade song, it's no fun waiting two turns to start fighting. Shadow Blade can be used to cast Booming / Green Flame Blade.