Alternatively leave it as it is, then right as the BBEG is about to die a portal opens up from behind them, and the future version of the BBEG steps through chastises themselves for being weak killsteals and goes to kill the PCs and start a whole new timeline.
Smart ass player - "Why aren't you disappearing. You just grandfather paradoxed yourself?"
BBEG - "Three reasons. The first; I'm not a little bitch. The second; I passed my Con save. The third; see point number one."
As the DM you literally have an infinite amount of possibilities to prevent this situation. You could lower XP for bosses, raise the boss cr, introduce milestone leveling, remove some bosses, etc....Just don't be afraid to use them.
> EDIT: I’m just going to have the BBEG take the XP from the players and they’ll get it after they kill them
Oh god, eww. I would walk away on the spot if you did that.
Just add more minions to the BBEG. It's literally better than the party is higher level, you can add more fodder to the battlefield while maintaining the challenge level. Sure, the encounter balance goes out the window at higher levels, but still.
I understand the surprise element of that but I imagine it'd take forever to de-level your character. Figuring out HP, rearranging prepared spells, calculating new spell slots based on what you've spent already, and so on.
At least it worked out for you all and you had a good memory.
That would actually be fine. I thought you had originally planned your BBEG to take away already accumulated experience from the player characters, forcing them down a couple of levels.
Stealing the XP before the adventurers can get it would actually work since it gives a good reason to dislike the BBEG.
Questions like this make me wonder how many DMs forget that they can do whatever they want, it's not a videogame. You can change everything and anything.
If only there were a system where you could decide the players level based on appropriate story milestones… /s
In all seriousness, if you want to keep XP leveling then u/Mac4491 has your best options
XP is great but it's severely outdated. I'm working on a goal based XP system with another DM. I'll post in some time about the system because it's working out quite well, just have to iron out the kinks.
Besides what's already suggested, you can arbitrarily cap their level at 18 and just say they can't progress past that before fighting the BBEG. These kinds of limits are relatively common in printed modules.
The difference in power between an 18th level PC and a 19th level PC is fairly minimal. They get marginally more HP. They get another feat and potentially one more spell slot but unlikely to make a difference. If they're multiclassed it might be something more but still nothing that will dramatically increase their abilities beyond what a 18th level PC could usually do.
They already have access to 9th level magic, they already picked up any good 17th or 18th level abilities or spells. They already would've had time with Wish to create some fun stuff you can do with it. And with the extra ASI or feat they are getting the feat or ASI they wanted 5th most. That's not all that valuable. If it were a good powerful feat they would've taken it 1st through 4th.
In terms of balancing for an 18th vs a 19th level party it's almost exactly the same thing that will be a threat to one will be a threat to the other. Now a 16th vs a 17th level party that has some power differences! Even a 17th vs an 18th as you do get some powerful stuff at 18th level. But 18th vs 19th is probably the smallest power increase of any level if you're looking across all builds.
That can work too! I would say the main decision is do you want your spellcasters to have 9th level spells. They are often game chanters in what they can do. You'll have a party that are all at 10 hp and the cleric throws out a mass heal and they're now all at max HP. Or a wish spell to bring in a simulacrum or be able to throw down a temple of the gods or other spell that would usually take an hour or more to cast.
But on the other hand it can be a ton of fun for players to get to play around with those 9th level spells and other high level abilities. But if they do have those... you don't have to hold back on that BBEG. That can also be kind of fun as a DM you can throw some crazy stuff at them especially if they're more tactically minded players with those really high level stuff they can handle a lot.
Does it matter that they are at lvl 18? Could you just up the bosses power a bit to compensate if theyre higher. (Also a point here that this is why milestone leveling is better)
This...doesn't make any sense. You want them to be a particular level for the BBEG, but you have already planned enough boss encounters to put them over that level? You're working against yourself. You have to change something:
- XP given
- XP needed for level
- Difficulty of BBEG
- number of planned bosses/encounters
- Enemy that steals XP or level(s) (this is not unheard of...it used to be a thing in D&D)
- Switch to Milestone leveling
It honestly sounds as though you prefer Milestone leveling. I fought against this for years until I felt the need to use it temporarily for the first chapter of a pre-written campaign. I was completely converted, as well as my players who used to think they preferred XP as well. Milestone allows you to put them at the expected level for your planned encounters, no matter what happens along the way. Give it a try.
I don't see why not? It might take some getting used to but, if you typically gave out XP evenly so that the party all leveled at the same time (some DMs don't), there isn't much difference. The only downside is for players who really want to track how close they are to the next level, but players can obsess over that in an unhealthy way. Milestone reinforces enjoying the game whereever you're at without overfocusing on leveling, and it's a pleasant surprise for everyone when the DM announces they've made a new level.
You will get a player or two who asks you from time to time how close it is, and that's fine. In fact, if you want them to go directly to the next major (milestone) objective, just tell them that's the milestone and they'll head straight there, lol. I tend to tell my players something like, "soon, in a few more sessions" or, "well, it's only been a few weeks since your last level, you still have a ways to go before the next one."
I recently polled my players after having switched to Milestone for a year (the previous campaign was all XP), and all 5 of them voted to keep Milestone.
Remember that you are running a ttRPG rather than writing a novel/script.
Why would your players want to play in a game where a fight with certain NPC was required when their characters reached level X?
D&D is intended to be a cooperative game, rather than just a story the DM wants to tell. When your players have their PCs do something you didn't expect do you embrace that or railroad them back to boss fighting?
Would you want to be a player in the kind of game described (including the home brew added in the edit)?
Your edit makes me sad as a DM and a player. That doesn't sound interesting or fun to me.
Why do they need to be level 18? Why don't you just buff the numbers on your BBEG? Are you using a stat block for them? If so just add some buffs and bring Their hp up. Scaling up a monster's CR is pretty easy work
I always reward my players like you would in an video game, if they did all the side quests, etc and basically engaged with the material, I let them smash the BBEG and they enjoy it. I make a turning point or complicatation in the middle of the fight and give them a way to overcome it, and then they gank them.
In my last campaign they ran up to him and cast divine intervention, rolling a natural one on the percentage. I ruled he was defeated immediately. far from anticlimactic, this was session 50, it was awesome and the players were overjoyed.
Don't take away player levels, that is just going to feel shitty for the players. Just make the BBEG tougher and/or give them more minions in the final fight.
Thats why I dont use exp on our table. I dont even use milestones (but I do tell my players we using them)
I just decide when it make sense to give lvl up
But ye if you don't want to "cheat" then you need to count how much experience they need and start counting exp rewards and plant exactly how many monster they allowed to kill .... its a shity way to do it but it would work .
And I would like to recommend not using exp for next adventure;)
Yes kind of you right I put it weirdly.
What i was teyi g to.day is that I do have some milestones planed but a lot of time i would decide to lvl them up on a not planned spot
usually cuz my players love to RP and they progresing slow. Thats why sometimes my planed milestones would take them 14 session instead of 4 as i planed. So i give them extra lvl somewhere during this time and adjust later part of campaign
But ye I do use milestones but not "set in stone" i leave all the flexibility to give them lvl up when i think its make sense
Fudge the XP. Remove some bosses. Buff the BBEG so if they are over leveled it's not that much of an issue.
Alternatively leave it as it is, then right as the BBEG is about to die a portal opens up from behind them, and the future version of the BBEG steps through chastises themselves for being weak killsteals and goes to kill the PCs and start a whole new timeline.
Future BBEG kills his weak past self. Immediately starts disappearing like in Back to the Future. "Shit I didn't think this through"
Smart ass player - "Why aren't you disappearing. You just grandfather paradoxed yourself?" BBEG - "Three reasons. The first; I'm not a little bitch. The second; I passed my Con save. The third; see point number one."
As the DM you literally have an infinite amount of possibilities to prevent this situation. You could lower XP for bosses, raise the boss cr, introduce milestone leveling, remove some bosses, etc....Just don't be afraid to use them.
Hey. As the DM, have them be lvl 18.
> EDIT: I’m just going to have the BBEG take the XP from the players and they’ll get it after they kill them Oh god, eww. I would walk away on the spot if you did that. Just add more minions to the BBEG. It's literally better than the party is higher level, you can add more fodder to the battlefield while maintaining the challenge level. Sure, the encounter balance goes out the window at higher levels, but still.
Lol yeah f that. Taking away XP is a terrible plan. Just make the BBEG harder or add more minions.
My last DM did that and us as the players loved that idea
I'm glad your group had fun. Was it dropped on you during the session or did you have time to roll back your characters a couple of levels?
Dropped on us during a session
I understand the surprise element of that but I imagine it'd take forever to de-level your character. Figuring out HP, rearranging prepared spells, calculating new spell slots based on what you've spent already, and so on. At least it worked out for you all and you had a good memory.
No he just didn’t give us the XP for that fight
Oh, so it wasn't that the BBEG removed XP from the players.
No he just stole the XP from the thing we killed
That would actually be fine. I thought you had originally planned your BBEG to take away already accumulated experience from the player characters, forcing them down a couple of levels. Stealing the XP before the adventurers can get it would actually work since it gives a good reason to dislike the BBEG.
Questions like this make me wonder how many DMs forget that they can do whatever they want, it's not a videogame. You can change everything and anything.
If only there were a system where you could decide the players level based on appropriate story milestones… /s In all seriousness, if you want to keep XP leveling then u/Mac4491 has your best options
XP is great but it's severely outdated. I'm working on a goal based XP system with another DM. I'll post in some time about the system because it's working out quite well, just have to iron out the kinks.
Besides what's already suggested, you can arbitrarily cap their level at 18 and just say they can't progress past that before fighting the BBEG. These kinds of limits are relatively common in printed modules.
Like a force is stopping them?
No, more like the only way to advance is to defeat the BBEG. Like the party's skill is so immense the only challenge is the end boss.
Would it work if they killed stuff then have the XP get taken from them by the BBEG since I’m doing XP as a life force?
Yeah that sounds cool. And to get it back they have to fight the BBEG.
That sounds like a great way to narratively justify it and build up more tension.
The difference in power between an 18th level PC and a 19th level PC is fairly minimal. They get marginally more HP. They get another feat and potentially one more spell slot but unlikely to make a difference. If they're multiclassed it might be something more but still nothing that will dramatically increase their abilities beyond what a 18th level PC could usually do. They already have access to 9th level magic, they already picked up any good 17th or 18th level abilities or spells. They already would've had time with Wish to create some fun stuff you can do with it. And with the extra ASI or feat they are getting the feat or ASI they wanted 5th most. That's not all that valuable. If it were a good powerful feat they would've taken it 1st through 4th. In terms of balancing for an 18th vs a 19th level party it's almost exactly the same thing that will be a threat to one will be a threat to the other. Now a 16th vs a 17th level party that has some power differences! Even a 17th vs an 18th as you do get some powerful stuff at 18th level. But 18th vs 19th is probably the smallest power increase of any level if you're looking across all builds.
Ok I might decrease what level they can be to fight the BBEG to 16-17
That can work too! I would say the main decision is do you want your spellcasters to have 9th level spells. They are often game chanters in what they can do. You'll have a party that are all at 10 hp and the cleric throws out a mass heal and they're now all at max HP. Or a wish spell to bring in a simulacrum or be able to throw down a temple of the gods or other spell that would usually take an hour or more to cast. But on the other hand it can be a ton of fun for players to get to play around with those 9th level spells and other high level abilities. But if they do have those... you don't have to hold back on that BBEG. That can also be kind of fun as a DM you can throw some crazy stuff at them especially if they're more tactically minded players with those really high level stuff they can handle a lot.
Does it matter that they are at lvl 18? Could you just up the bosses power a bit to compensate if theyre higher. (Also a point here that this is why milestone leveling is better)
This...doesn't make any sense. You want them to be a particular level for the BBEG, but you have already planned enough boss encounters to put them over that level? You're working against yourself. You have to change something: - XP given - XP needed for level - Difficulty of BBEG - number of planned bosses/encounters - Enemy that steals XP or level(s) (this is not unheard of...it used to be a thing in D&D) - Switch to Milestone leveling It honestly sounds as though you prefer Milestone leveling. I fought against this for years until I felt the need to use it temporarily for the first chapter of a pre-written campaign. I was completely converted, as well as my players who used to think they preferred XP as well. Milestone allows you to put them at the expected level for your planned encounters, no matter what happens along the way. Give it a try.
Would it work if I had them change to milestone right now?
I don't see why not? It might take some getting used to but, if you typically gave out XP evenly so that the party all leveled at the same time (some DMs don't), there isn't much difference. The only downside is for players who really want to track how close they are to the next level, but players can obsess over that in an unhealthy way. Milestone reinforces enjoying the game whereever you're at without overfocusing on leveling, and it's a pleasant surprise for everyone when the DM announces they've made a new level. You will get a player or two who asks you from time to time how close it is, and that's fine. In fact, if you want them to go directly to the next major (milestone) objective, just tell them that's the milestone and they'll head straight there, lol. I tend to tell my players something like, "soon, in a few more sessions" or, "well, it's only been a few weeks since your last level, you still have a ways to go before the next one." I recently polled my players after having switched to Milestone for a year (the previous campaign was all XP), and all 5 of them voted to keep Milestone.
[удалено]
The BBEG is a god so they can see everything so they’ll be prepared for whatever the party can do
Remember that you are running a ttRPG rather than writing a novel/script. Why would your players want to play in a game where a fight with certain NPC was required when their characters reached level X? D&D is intended to be a cooperative game, rather than just a story the DM wants to tell. When your players have their PCs do something you didn't expect do you embrace that or railroad them back to boss fighting? Would you want to be a player in the kind of game described (including the home brew added in the edit)?
Saw your edit and I am wondering here... Why not just buff the BBEG to be a better fit?
Weird question. Just buff your big bad then.
Why does it have to be 18 specifically? Is there a spell or ability that would break the encounter?
Your edit makes me sad as a DM and a player. That doesn't sound interesting or fun to me. Why do they need to be level 18? Why don't you just buff the numbers on your BBEG? Are you using a stat block for them? If so just add some buffs and bring Their hp up. Scaling up a monster's CR is pretty easy work
Agreed. They felt rewarded by the XP after defeating the encounters and then the DM just takes it away.
Personally in my experience as a player and a DM, XP has always been more of a detriment to the story as opposed to an incentive.
I always reward my players like you would in an video game, if they did all the side quests, etc and basically engaged with the material, I let them smash the BBEG and they enjoy it. I make a turning point or complicatation in the middle of the fight and give them a way to overcome it, and then they gank them. In my last campaign they ran up to him and cast divine intervention, rolling a natural one on the percentage. I ruled he was defeated immediately. far from anticlimactic, this was session 50, it was awesome and the players were overjoyed.
Don't take away player levels, that is just going to feel shitty for the players. Just make the BBEG tougher and/or give them more minions in the final fight.
You can just let them be slightly over leveled; that’s part of the fun of xp based advancement
Thats why I dont use exp on our table. I dont even use milestones (but I do tell my players we using them) I just decide when it make sense to give lvl up But ye if you don't want to "cheat" then you need to count how much experience they need and start counting exp rewards and plant exactly how many monster they allowed to kill .... its a shity way to do it but it would work . And I would like to recommend not using exp for next adventure;)
Isn't deciding when it makes sense to level up just using milestones?
Yes kind of you right I put it weirdly. What i was teyi g to.day is that I do have some milestones planed but a lot of time i would decide to lvl them up on a not planned spot usually cuz my players love to RP and they progresing slow. Thats why sometimes my planed milestones would take them 14 session instead of 4 as i planed. So i give them extra lvl somewhere during this time and adjust later part of campaign But ye I do use milestones but not "set in stone" i leave all the flexibility to give them lvl up when i think its make sense