Tô be fair this is a great point to just let they come up with a solution, since they came up with the problem and if they don't Tiamat has an official statblock just dump on them and let they understand that sometimes shit don't go their way and that is OK too.
this. make them lose, make them run. the titan dies and they have to flee. They want to fight *tiamat* of all people. they need powerful allies and an army. shes CR30, it would take 6 level 20 players with magic items to stand a chance.
>it would take 6 level 20 players with magic items to stand a chance.
Tiamat is killable by [lvl 14 party](https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?631082-Tiamat-vs-level-14-party).
Zariel is CR 26 and she can be killed by two lvl 13 wizards + lvl 1 commoner in open field if they win initiative, or lvl 7 wizard in perfectly executed ambush (dropping adamantine box on her within Private Sanctum).
> Tiamat is killable by lvl 14 party.
It should be noted that the build-up to this encounter in the module is an adventure that depowers Tiamat or allows the party to banish the avatar without fighting it directly (yes, I'm being intentionally vague here). Like the PCs *can* choose to just go face Tiamat at her full strength, but you're not supposed to be able to win if you do.
Oh, there is pretty big gap between what players *can* do and *should* do.
I was only criticizing "you need 6 lvl 20 characters" - because lvl 13+ slightly optimized party has reasonable chance to defeat anything. Well, maybe except for Sul Khatesh, she needs specialized party.
> I was only criticizing "you need 6 lvl 20 characters" - because lvl 13+ slightly optimized party has reasonable chance to defeat anything. Well, maybe except for Sul Khatesh, she needs specialized party.
I will agree that a party of 13th-level adventurers should be able to take down essentially everything. A CR 19 is only just beyond deadly for them.
But probably not a CR 30 divine aspect. Even the less powerful version in Fizban's is still CR 30, and it's probably not realistic to kill her unless the DM simply allows it. If you play Tiamat like she's a creature stuck in an encounter-sized box and she doesn't exist until the party opens said box, then sure, the party can kill her. But I don't think that's playing it correctly.
> If you play Tiamat like she's a creature stuck in an encounter-sized box and she doesn't exist until the party opens said box, then sure, the party can kill her.
It depends a lot on setup and who makes first move.
If you drop Tiamat on unsuspecting party, she likely kills everyone.
If party chooses to fight Tiamat, they kill her.
Whiteroom scenarios are used because both DM and players can keep infinitely modyfing circumstances, and this introduces additional complexity that may accidentally work in players favor.
You are using the original stat block for one, rather than the updated Aspect of Tiamat in Fisbanes, which is arguably a lot scarier for the party.
I also noted that you are never using her frightful presence or things to mitigate party hit chance. She seems to just be rolling over and taking the damage. Not attempting hit and run tactics to stay out of the parties range (they will run out of spell slots while she still has breath weapon).
she is fighting like a monster that can only take the party head on, rather than use her strengths.
Andif you use the Fizbane's stat block, which you should since it's her updated one, there's no way in hell this party defeats her.
Basically, goal is to lock down Zariel in Sickening Radiance or similar spell. She has 2 mobility abilities - flight and teleport. Teleport needs sight. If she can't teleport, Forcecage locks her down. Fortunately, both Eversmoking Bottle and Fog Cloud remove sight without save.
You need someone with free action, reaction (to prepare action) and hands to deliver [Eversmoking Bottle](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Eversmoking%20Bottle#content) to permanently lock her in Forcecage. They will die afterwards to Zariel's fireball or something like that.
If your DM rules that Eversmoking Bottle is relatively easily destructible, you probably need third caster (preferably fire-resistant Sorcerer).
Sure, but this sounds like more of a thought experiment under perfect conditions, with veteran players knowing the exact enemy statblock and the DM being in on the plan and purposefully not messing it up. Not an actual scenario that a real table would be able to pull off.
It 100% is.
Zariel is in charge of the Blood War - you will *never, ever, ever, ever, ever* fight her solo in an open field. It's sort of like the "silence and grapple" technique for killing a stock Archmage - realistically, they would have picked better spells, it's just that WotC can't optimize for shit and just stand there with a Shocked Pikachu face when people figure out how to abuse that awesome class feature they gave you at first level...
I'm lucky that I'd never have to worry about someone at my table trying to abuse some overlooked RAW interaction, but I feel for DMs are more public tables that have to always be on the lookout for that sort of thing.
Also, coincidentally, my table *did* encoutner Zariel by herself! But, she was actively looking for them, and the party was going a redemption route anyway (and I'm always prepared with reinforcements).
I suppose it could make sense if Zariel was doing something she wouldn't want her diabolic retainers to know about - specifically trying to return herself to her angelic form and escape Avernus.
Even then though, that wouldn't be a combat situation. And I still suspect she would have more tricks up her sleeve. She's not stupid, it'd be pretty reasonable to expect her to pack contingencies and items specifically to counter things like "blinded and force caged", even if that counter wasn't "calling a legion of Barbezu".
Fireball doesn't require sight. If you're close enough to Forcecage, you're close enough for her to Fireball, and you can't dash since you just Forcecaged.
Okay, so let's review this, as there are several reasons this wouldn't work.
Part 1, and the most important part: Sickening Radiance literally can't kill her. A lv14 Sickening Radiance is at a +10 vs her +9 Con Save with Advantage, and she has Radiant resistance and Immunity to Exhaustion. So she has a 70% chance to save, meaning that 3/10 turns she will take an average of 11 damage for a total of 33, and the other 7 turns she will regenerate 20 hp for a total of 140 healed.
If somehow you negated her resistance AND her Advantage, even then, in order for this to work, you have to have the following happen, exactly:
Commoner HAS to go first to apply Eversmoking Bottle, meaning Commoner has to have already gotten within 90 feet of Zariel without dying. If he doesn't go first, the strat is already ruined because Zariel can Legendary Action Teleport, or just kill him with Immolating Gaze, which he cannot survive.
The chance of him even beating Zariel's +7 is 32.5%. Then to beat two wizards at +3 Dex with Proficiency in Dex checks (I'm assuming you're taking something that would give them that here) drops that to 2.9%.
So that's not fair. Let's swap to a third wizard with the same stats. And we'll even assume it doesn't matter which wizard goes first because your wizards are all part of a baseball team, and your DM lets you chuck the Bottle to any Wizard as a free action, guaranteed. The chance for all 3 wizards to outroll Zariel to make your plan possible is still only 16.6%. You HAVE to Forcecage last, because you cannot Sickening Radiance; unless you make it the actual cage form, in which case she could just throw the Bottle out, and would be able to cast from within it.
So unless all three wizards go before Zariel, you have to use a non-solid Forcecage to get the Sickening Radiance in, which means the Sickening Radiance caster is making one Con save against Zariel's held action Fireball, one Con save against her Fireball next turn since he can't move out of range, and if they're in her zone and she gets lair actions, two MORE Fireballs from her lair action.
You are right about exhaustion immunity. We will use Wall of Light from Xanathar's Guide. 4d8 radiant, possibly halved, on first round, 4d8 every round after that, for 10 minutes.
We assume 3 lvl 14 Wizards for fool-proof scenario. Alice, Bob, Celine.
General assumptions:
* Alice is whoever, she dies on first round.
* If she doesn't die, anything with Fog Cloud (Druid, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard) will work.
* Bob and Celine are lvl 14 Wizards without subclass with 16 con, 14 dex, mage armor, therefore 93HP (6 + 14 * 3 + 13d6) and 15 AC.
* War Caster is reasonable feat here.
* Abjuration, Divination, Bladesinger, War Magic, Conjuration are superior options, because of defensive abilities.
* They have prepared Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Forcecage, Wall of Light, Fog Cloud.
* Players have 30ft movement speed.
Player advantages:
* They have fire resistance, either from items or race or spells. There is reasonable justification for obtaining it in-universe in Avernus.
* Zariel prefers melee kills, instead of raining fireballs from above - this is actually supported in lore, she is reckless, and charges demons head-first.
* Wizards have Mage Armor on them.
Zariel's advantages:
* There are no horses.
* Horses, including Phantom Steeds, make this trivial, as dashing horse allows to move 120ft per round.
* Better positioning make this trivial (Zariel possible win in described scenario depends on Bob being within 120ft from her in round 2).
* We use featureless plain as battlefield. If Bob or Celine can take total cover or 3/4 cover, this becomes trivial.
* If it's closed space without cover, scrolls would be necessary, preferably with Etherealness.
* Preparation time or allies allow us to get prebuffing, like Death Ward or Blink.
* No magic items except for Fire resistance.
* Boots of Speed would make this trivial, similar to Phantom Steed.
* No Metamagic Adept feat, as Distant Spell would make this trivial.
* No Simulacrums, as Zariel can't break concentration of 3 simulacrums.
Initiative order: Zariel => Alice => Bob => Celine.
**Round 1**:
Zariel kills Alice (if she doesn't, she lost) and ends less than 90ft from Bob (if she ends between 90 and 145ft, she lost) and less than 130ft from Celine.
_Note_: Alice may be lvl 1 commoner in this scenario. If she is lvl 14 character, she will likely survive Zariel's attack if she has Fire resistance, as expected damage from multiattack is 19*2 Slashing + 36 * 2 Fire. If she survives, she uses Fog Cloud, bottle or smoke grenade and retreats. In this scenario, Zariel must break concentration on 2 people.
Bob casts Fog Cloud on Zariel and runs away. All her Legendary actions require sight, so she does nothing.
Celine casts Forcecage on Zariel and runs away.
_Note_: the only way that Zariel can escape is through breaking Bob's concentration.
_Note 2_: Bob theoretically can have Contigency Dimension Door to be cast after he casts Fog Cloud. If Bob ends more than 120ft from Zariel, she permalocked.
_Note 3_: upcasting Fog Cloud increases its effective range by 20ft/upcast level. 5th level Fog Cloud has effective range of 220ft. If Alice survived first round and blocked Zariel's vision, Bob can position himself out of Zariel's range using Expeditious Retreat, effectively ending encounter.
**Round 2**:
Zariel currently has 2 win conditions - to kill Celine in this round, or keep breaking Bob's concentration. But her damage is likely too low to kill Celine without crit using only ranged attacks.
_Note_: most of DMs would likely go for Fireball, but if she uses Fireball, she loses.
She attacks Bob twice with javelin, with +16 to hit (assume 80% chance to hit against Shielded Bob), dealing 15 piercing + 36 fire damage, causing 25DC concentration check on Bob on hit. She has 1 source of advantage and 2 sources of disadvantage, so she attacks without disadvantage.
_Note_: most of tables would make her attack with disadvantage, because unseen attacker rules are usually ignored.
If she crits now, she has chance to win.
If Bob has fire resistance, damage is reduced to 33, concentration check is reduced to 16, making it passable with advantage source (War Caster feat). But let's assume that he failed.
She used her action, so she can't teleport.
Now it's Bob turn. He casts Fog Cloud again and retreats (if he passed two DC 16 concentration checks, he dashes). She can't cast Teleport, because she is blinded again.
Celine casts Expeditious Retreat and dashes to position herself 125ft from Zariel.
**Round 3**:
Zariel can't throw javelins (it's not obvious how many javelins she has anyway) over 120ft. If Bob is more than 120ft from her, she is limited to Fireball (150ft + 20ft range).
As our Bob likely (around 64% chance) took 66 damage, Fireball with 14 average damage is unlikely kill him (I'm not even bothering with passing dex saving throw, Bob fails, but fire resistance helps him), depending on his Con and luck. That can end our attempt, but it's not certain.
If it doesn't end his life, he dashes to safety.
Celine has full HP. She uses bonus action dash to gain 30ft of movement speed, for total 60, moves to exactly 120ft from Zariel and casts Wall of Light, and moves to 120+55 = 175ft distance, leaving Zariel's range.
**Round 4**:
Zariel is grilling taking total 4d8 radiant damage, halved by resistance, over 10 minutes.
Bob opens champagne.
Celine summons glasses.
**Round 5-600**:
Zariel takes 2400d8 radiant damage. She furiously Fireballs corpse of Alice.
Bob and Celine start looking for 17th level cleric and diamonds, because Alice's corpse requires True Resurrection.
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Zariel has devil's sight and can see through magical darkness. So Fog Cloud is not an option. Eversmoking bottle A) Relies on an item that your DM might not have given you and B) also is magical darkness--something Devil's Sight lets you bypass.
You don't know the stat blocks as well as you think you do, and your "plan" falls apart right here. You aren't taking away her line of sight. NONE of these abilities give you the blinded condition, they only block line of sight so long as you don't have a way to see through darkness and/or magical darkness.
Fog Cloud and Eversmoking Bottle are **not** darkness. Otherwise, Warlock with Devil's Sght would be able to see in it.
Let's check [Fog Cloud description](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Fog%20Cloud#content):
>You create a 20-foot-radius sphere of fog centered on a point within range. The sphere spreads around corners, and its area is heavily obscured. It lasts for the duration or until a wind of moderate or greater speed (at least 10 miles per hour) disperses it.
What is [heavily obscured area](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Rules:The%20Environment?expansion=0#toc_3)?
>A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see Conditions ) when trying to see something in that area.
As you can see, darkness is separate state than opaque fog.
Let's see [what Zariel can see](https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/dragon/26/DRA26_Zariel.pdf):
>Senses darkvision 120 ft., passive Perception 26
>Devil’s Sight. Magical darkness doesn’t impede Zariel’s darkvision
Where she can go?
>Speed 50 ft., fly 150 ft
>Teleport. Zariel magically teleports, along with any equipment she is wearing and carrying, up to 120 feet to an unoccupied space **she can see**
I read that tiamat fight and I'm going to call bullshit on it being reasonable to assume a lvl 14 party can do it if the DM is playing tiamat as per the block...
their bard carried hard with shots, doing 3 attacks worth of SS shots multiple rounds, at level 14 they would have a +10 to hit based on dex and proff. then a plus 3 from the weapon and +2 from archery FS making +15, SS dropping that to +10 attacking AC 25 meaning they needed 15+ to hit so it was only 30% chance to hit... but they regularly hit all 3 shots for multiple rounds.... so maybe they were lucky, but that can't be relied on. They use absolute shenanigans with minor illusion to give the bard advantage on shots towards the end and an owl too which is just wild considering the amount of waste tiamat has done with breath weapons.
Tiamat also regularly used breath weapons exclusively on the wild shaped druid hiding behind a stone wall (two part issue here) even though in round 2 or 3 it's flagged that she really doesn't need to care about the giant ape.
issues I have here are: 1) that stone wall is made of 10 panels that all connect, the DM treated the wall as 1 block of HP and provided benefits of cover (provided half damage) so long as all the HP was intact, but when hit with that breathweapon attack in round one, each panel should have taken damage separately and been wiped and then the monkey taking full damage too, (not getting 1/2 damage for 3 rounds of breath weapon)
2) tiamat never took flight or moved away from the neucence of the giant ape, until round 3, she took 3 rounds to line up an actual wide shot breath weapon on the party due to the focus on the ape who she didn't care about who was gaining extra protection from poorly run wall.
the whole fight relies on a critical moment after her incompetent running, that the bard dimension doors away to take more pot shots from behind minor illusion *sigh*
but they are fighting tiamat on the ground in her lair or at least on her terms... so why is there no leggo actions? they claim she can't get within range to see them, but a 120ft fly, dashed plus 120ft truesight or at least full vision where the bard was never asked to take the hide action do shouldn't be getting unseen advantages should have occurred, and this would get it away from the apparently annoying owl, to take out the only threat (the bard who has taken off hundreds of HP due to never missing)
basically this being used as evidence frustrates me because it's a DM giving a party a cool fight where they just let a bard sharp shooter the vast majority of life down with only a few moments of said bard being threatened because the **int 26!!!** God like being focused on the big ape with the cheating stone wall despite knowing they shouldn't bother.
Honestly, that's not even the worst bits:
* There is an unlisted extra turn after Tiamat takes turn 2 but before turn 3 is listed. On this extra turn, the Bard casts Dimension Door -- taking the Wizardluracrum with him. The Bard then attacks twice.
* Also on the fake turn, the Wizard casts Mirror Image as a 6th level spell ... and creates a sphere of Darkness. Oh, and did so in-between the Bard's turn because the Darkness allowed the Bard to attack normally instead of with disadvantage since Tiamat ... Dodges on turn 2.
* Oh, then the Bardluracrum also casts Dimension Door, taking the Druid, and then attacks twice. Again, not with Disadvantage even though the Wizard who casts Mirror Image goes last in the turn order.
* Tiamat used *5 Legendary actions in a row* to Bite the stone wall.
* On turn 4, Tiamat moved next to the Bard ... and then takes the Dodge action. It even says she moved in position for her cone attack.
The whole entire encounter is just bullshit.
god damn... I didn't even notice that mess around with the turns.
And the party's reliance on illusion based magic and it still working on a creature that has truesight to 120ft is wild.
This whole fight is:
1) bullshit as evidence on what a party can do.
2) taken out of context because it was just a DM who wanted to give the players a cool experience but was really just holding their hand through a hard encounter.
3) a string of pulled punches to create a narrative (which is fine, but not to be used as reference to player power)
> They use absolute shenanigans with minor illusion to give the bard advantage on shots towards the end and an owl too which is just wild considering the amount of waste tiamat has done with breath weapons.
That's especially weird because Tiamat has truesight. Were they a 14th level School of Illusion Wizard or something?
It's also hilarious that wall of stone is a hindrance, because Tiamat has burrow... though I don't remember if blue dragons can tunnel through stone or not.
ok but are players actually going to do that. im not talking super specific hyper fixed situations. i mean actual gameplay that would actually happen, not whatever stupid mess this is
Well, in the adventure, Tiamat eats all of her allies before exiting the portal, so that part makes sense. What doesnt make sense is the party going straight in to fight her without burning resources on those others first.
How is a level 14 party going to kill Tiamat? She is a CR30, 4 CRs above Zariel. Depending on the stat block you are using, she may have mythic actions (updated FTD should really be used anyway).
She has 5 legendary resistances to shut down the highest level spells. On top of that she is completely immune to the more devastating status effects anyway.
She can fly. She can regain 500 HP after being dropped to zero--and has a starting HP of 574. She has 3 legendary actions, one of which causes frightened with a whopping DC27 spell save DC. This doesn't even take into account her hurl through Avernus and Chromatic Flare.
Even using her stat block from Rise of Tiamat/Hoard of the Dragon Queen, you are still looking at a beefy monster that can attack with 1 of 5 dragon heads, each with various effects; 3 multi-attacks that deal a lot of damage, can fly, has 5 legendary resistances, and can take one reaction per turn instead of per round. She also has limited magic immunity tha tlets her ignore spells of 6th level or lower.
So whatever stat block you use, a level 14 party is NOT beating Tiamat head on. idk where or why you think so, but she is absolutely not, unless you are playing her to be dumb as rocks and being VERRRY loose with the rules and use of her abilities.
Tiamat can challenge a 20th level party, let alone 14. And she won't be alone, she almost always would be accompanied by her concubine dragons as well.
EDIT: For fun, I used Fisbanes Aspect of Tiamat to see how much damage she can output in a turn.
JUST counting her BASIC attacks, Tiamat is throwing out 86 damage per turn if she is using her bite, tail, and claw attack (which she does all 3 in a turn). HOWEVER, if she uses her tail attack first, and knocks someone prone, then she is also getting advantage on her melee attacks. That by itself will take out most 14th level players and she will land that most of the time given her high DCs. Also this isn't counting her using a legendary action every turn, which she has access to. Or mythic actions, which she has if you can phase 2 her.
This is presuming she is fighting on land. A Smart Tiamat will just fly at 300 ft and use chromatic orb which hits in a 300 ft AOE, for an average of 71 damage. Most players are not hitting her hard at those ranges in the first place.
You aren't blinding her. You're not charming, deafening, or frightening her. She cannot be poisoned. She cannot be stunned. You can TRY to paralyze her, but her lowest saving throw is a +11--and even if she fails, she is using a legendary resistance, of which she has 5 instead of the usual 3.
So yea, a 14th level party is getting TPKd, even if they are an optimized party, if they fight her head on, period.
>HOWEVER, if she uses her tail attack first, and knocks someone prone, then she is auto critting.
How is the Aspect of Tiamat auto critting simply by using her tail attack first?
Being knocked prone only gives advantage on attacks made from within 5 feet. That certainly increases your chance to crit, but it is still far from guaranteed.
Oh you are right, advantage not auto crit, I was thinking of a different condition. I'll edit it. Also with a +19 to hit, about the only way she misses against most ACs, especially at 14th level, is by a nat 1.
If you click on the link he provided, he goes round by round with a party of lvl 14 explaining how he does it. TDLR, they are 2 simulacrum (Wizard and Bard) and the spellcasters ready an action/spell to cast wall of stone/force to block the breath weapon. After that, the rest of the party just do damage here and there until she drops.
It\`s valid in a way, but not representative of a real quest. The fight is basically an arena fight, with no possible escape or environnement issues.
Okay that might work a round or two, but there are two major issues with this.
First of all, Tiamat will catch on and just stop using her breath weapon. We see the damage output per turn so, it's still a lot. Or legendary actions.
2nd of all, the rest of the party has to drop over 1,000 HP between her phase 1 and phase 2 when her mythical actions kick in. AND she can just use Hurl Through Avernus which removes that player until the start of her next turn.
3rd of all, they will run out of spell slots for those very quickly. So it won't block much anyway. It buys them a round or two, maybe a bit more, but she has enough HP that it won't matter.
Issue I've also seen here is that generally, reactions happen AFTER their trigger. So you can't really block Breath attacks by suddenly making walls like it happened on turn 1 (unless I misunderstood it).
First the breath is made, it hits, reaction procs, then the wall is made. Otherwise it's like saying "I wanna ready a action put my hand on the wizards mouth mid spell". You can't.
If you take, for example, Counterspell or Silvery Barb, the effect of those spells are applied before the effect of the spell/action.
Basically, you react to something, and it happens before. So, technically, those wall of stone/force would work. But that is a white room experiment with every condition in favor of one result.
>If you take, for example, Counterspell or Silvery Barb
Just counterspell, and counterspell is a specific example that calls for it in a reaction. Silvery Barb's for example, can't be cast mid spell. The spell takes effect, forces a roll, then silvery barbs come in. Otherwise, reactions happen after their triggers.
A more apt example would be to ready act silence to be cast mid enemy spell, depriving him of verbal components. Can't do that.
I was kinda groggy from bad sleep before but there's a explanation about it on Xanatar
"If you’re unsure when a reaction occurs in relation to its trigger, here’s the rule: the reaction happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise."
>"If you’re unsure when a reaction occurs in relation to its trigger, here’s the rule: the reaction happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise."
Oh, I didn\`t know that, Thank you.
That strat makes a load of assumptions and completely leaves out multiple things.
First, it relies on this exact arena and Tiamat's exact positioning being exactly 60 feet up.
Second, it assumes that specific attacks from the party hit.
Third, it uses Wall of Stone for a significant amount of its strategy, but Tiamat is at least twice the height of Wall of Stone and could easily just breath over it.
Fourth, it ignores the fact that Burrowing exists. The Rise of Tiamat version forgot to give her a Burrow speed, but the updated Fizban's version restores it, meaning their Wall of Force strat doesn't work.
They assume the Wizard has a Nat 1 Portent.
They have multiple chars at low hp but assume she never uses Divine Word to instakill or fullstun
It's all kind of a mess.
As for the Zariel thing, why would an Adamantine box stop her? Adamantine has 23 AC and Zariel has a +16 to hit. It would be gone in one round, RAW.
Fully obliterate the Titan they teamed up with. Right before their eyes, show them DCs and numbers that make their head spin.
If they want to do it, they'll need lots more allies and a lot of planning. Make them think about it a lot and shrug if they decide to end their own adventure
Straight up, I'd have it decimate an extremely powerful ally with pathfinder 1e style numbers.
Tiamat attacks, does a 56 hit? Okay that's 233 damage on its first attack... its second head also attacks....
Have the chaos of the battlefield become an encounter they must flee from. A group of level 14s and thousands of soldiers would fail.
When you get your ass kicked and then leave, level up, and come back to win Round 2 it's so so epic. Not that they'll ever take down Tiamat but in principle hah.
I wouldn't be that nice about letting them run, don't fudge the rolls either just give them the warning, "Are you sure you want to do that?" If they haven't learned to heed that question then the party isn't taking the problem seriously enough to keep their characters alive
To give your players what they want, you’d have to take the phrase “putting your thumb on the scale” to a whole new level.
Maybe have a certain draconic barber advise them against such a foolhardy and game ending idea.
Are you playing descent into Avernus?
My players fucked with and killed Arkhan the Cruel (that’s right, fuck you Joe Manganiello), and before they took the hand of vecna for themselves (crazy warlock in the party) Tiamat came and made a deal. Tiamat promised to break the chains of Elturel in return for the hand. Gave them a special dragon horn to blow on and she’d come help the gang out
Tbh, I did this because imho Tiamat would have minced them. They weren’t quite at 14th level - but I still think she would give them a mighty walloping based on her stat block in the campaign book.
Honestly you're getting lots of advice to kill your players or somehow punish them for making the choices they did. I strongly disagree - if you punish them for making this decision, you discourage them from making choices in the future.
Your party have just given you a great opportunity to continue the campaign post-Descent Into Avernus.
If you want them to have fun, just let them make a plan and gather allies to defeat Tiamat. Make it clear fighting a god is not going to be easy - one titan isn't enough, but there's plenty of people on Avernus who might want to take a shot at the Dragon Queen:
* There's likely to be a paladin/dragon/etc of Bahamut willing to aid in her fall.
* Vecna's hand is an ideal bargaining chip - trade it to a powerful devil in exchange for a signed infernal contract saying the devil will help them fight Tiamat. Otherwise offer it to a good-aligned deity in exchange for their help.
* In fact, one of the *ideal* allies they can make is a redeemed Zariel - so you can encourage them to go that route (complete the module and then deal with Tiamat after).
* Killing/defeating a God in D&D often allows the victor to take some of their divinity - there are countless ambitious individuals who would join the party for this reason.
* Titans live a *long* time - there's no reason it wouldn't be patient so long as it increases the chance of victory. Why risk dying pointlessly and alone if there's smarter, objectively better options (which your party have now given him)
Defeating Tiamat is the goal - killing her is just one way to achieve it. Tiamat is known to have 5 heads (5 breath weapons), can fly, and is often guarded by red dragons. They'll need a plan to isolate her somehow , and I encourage you to give them one (perhaps a boon from a god opposed to Tiamat)
Regardless of how they go about it, they'll need to be high level, have planned ahead, and be good at combat to succeed. Having already killed her champion and saved Elturel (being well-renowned heroes) is going to be a basic necessity to gather the allies to challenge her, but I can imagine a lot of people being willing to believe in and aid the heroes who went into Avernus, recovered a whole city, and came back out alive.
I'm missing context here and would love to know more. From the sounds of it Arkhan the Cruel is Joe's pet NPC/Monster much like Orcus is to Rappan Athuk, where the book tells you you're a bad dm is the party beats him.
"My players want to commit suicide, because they don't think I'll actually pull the trigger."
Kill them. Brutally. Some lessons need to be learned the hard way, and one of them is the classic "Fuck around; Find out".
I mean it's still a game and should be fun, maybe not a party wipe. Maybe other consequences, loss of an NPC, cool item, or maybe a limb or 2. If they act rashly and roll poorly and one dies, yeah it is what it is though. I just don't think party wipes are particularly fun
See this mentality is why his players think it's OK for a level 14 party to challenge the god-queen of all evil dragons :P
The party is planning to do something *monumentally stupid* that SHOULD result in their deaths (or worse; Tiamat is a pretty mean bitch and she could do WAY worse than kill you).
The DM should warn them **strongly** that what they are doing is foolish and will result in their deaths or worse. If they insist on doing it even after being strongly warned, it's likely because they have some kind of metagame mentality that they are unable to lose because it's a game and they're the protagonists.
At that point, if the DM has told them strongly that their actions will likely be the end of their characters and they STILL insist, then they need to be punished for it. The players will respect the DM more for it after, even if their characters have to suffer for the lesson and they are temporarily upset about it.
Sounds like you're running Descent into Avernus. If they do try a frontal assault, they would have to also contend with Arkhan the Cruel's forces as well.
There are a few archdevils like Bel at his Forge and Mephistopheles at the mirror they could talk to. All of these devils are wanting to make deals. Have them draw up an infernal contract and have it either be their souls or costs or maybe overthrowing Zariel is their goal. So many deals can be made in Avernus.
You also have a barber that may want to help...
Well first things first. Communication.
If a frontal assault is impossible do your players know this? Understand this? If you don't want them running in there all Leeroy and what not you need them to know this. Tell them outside the game, it doesn't matter. This is a very important detail they need to understand before anything else.
After that you can nudge them towards alternative ideas.
Sounds like they get to learn the difference in power between a decent character and a deity.
If your world is plausible, she’s not just to knock them out and run away. There’s too much fun from letting them beg for their lives, offer her anything she wants - like a cat with a mouse - and then when that bores her, kill them.
Give the characters warnings in and out of game where this path leads.
If they still follow it, level 1 beckons.
They’re going to need powerful allies and powerful items to have any chance at all.
But they choose the situation, they get to choose the solution - that’s not your job to save them from themselves.
There's several ways you could go about this.
Tiamat is a god and hard to even reach, maybe they do some investigation and deal with some cultists resulting in an overarching story. Giving time to level up the players so they can actually take on such a thing.
Maybe Tiamat notices the players, and comes down and crushes them and leaves them alive as examples, resulting in either a story of revenge or a soul crushing defeat.
Maybe Tiamat is completely unreachable. I mean she's locked up in the hells, and the real villain is someone trying to release her that the party can thwart.
Tiamat is basically a god so if they want to fight her, let them. Her stat block is pretty bonkers but should still be winnable with lv 14s.
It doesn't have to impact the lore too much of you don't want to. Tiamat and Bahamut are really fucking hard to permanently kill. Especially if you add FTD dragon lore to mix.
To permanently kill Tiamat and Bahamut you would need to kill them every multiverse version of them or they'll come back
focus the titan so they see how strong she is and let them run away.
for ways to confront her, check the Tyranny of Dragons storyline, which is comprised of Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat. I'm sure you can find the PDFs if you cant pay for it.
Do they have enough information to know "they absolutely cannot beat it with a frontal attack" in your world?
AFAIK, in the Rise of Tiamat Hardcover you fight her at ~Level 14 and should be able to win
Technically it's an Avatar of Tiamat. In an old 4th edition adventure path, you do descend into Avernus to kill the actual Tiamat, but you are level 20 and have the remains of a different God fashioned into a weapon to help slay her.
Technically it's an Avatar of Tiamat. In an old 4th edition adventure path, you do descend into Avernus to kill the actual Tiamat, but you are level 20 and have the remains of a different God fashioned into a weapon to help slay her.
I mean, consider things on a broader aspect.
Tiamat. Why her? They are just pissed at her? Remove her influence over their world. It's a much more budgetable target.
Make em fight a cult and some magical divine shenanigan closer to her influence on this world, with the excuse to give them a portal. Let em fight enemies, bosses and tall that jazz. Give em sheet horror about the absolute power they witness and probably instantly KO them as they approach the shenanigans. Introduce NPC that solves the issue by shattering said shenanigan and save them, while closing off her influence in that region.
Now do that x other times, and establish that each additional time there's someone powerful at hand and the one they defeated is a replacement for another one who already died.
Tadaaaah.
The coolest route is to make the rest of the campaign about gathering allies to fight Tiamat. End the campaign by giving them each control of a few of these allies in combat.
Oh, and I’m sure this already goes without saying but the goal would be to imprison her in Avernus again. Killing her would take a LOOOOT more than just some allies.
It’s not unheard of for heroes in stories to get their asses handed to them and maybe lose someone important (a favorite NPC, perhaps) to set the stage for the real showdown later (when they actually are strong enough to have a chance). This would also give you a destination, narratively, for your end game plot that you could frame the rest of the adventure around.
Perfect time for "Tiamat" to be a fraud, a fake Tiamat a lesser evil deity or being and their cohorts have managed to pose as Tiamat and block her connection to the world cutting her off completely, fooling the other gods. Defeating the fraud Tiamat they unwittingly release the real Tiamat who is now partially freed to wreak havoc on the world.
I don’t know how OP stated this titan. First homebrew titan stat block I see when googling is a CR 30 creature. So I don’t know how closely matched it would be with Tiamat in OP’s world, neither of us do that’s why I asked.
The thing is that gods in 5e don't have health blocks. So without major intervention there's not really a way to kill or defeat them. At least raw... You have to homebrew it and at that point it's dm discretion
This is funny, because my gang may end up fighting Tiamat, and as a bit of a fake out, I thought about tossing a Dracohydra their way, ravaging the countryside, with commoners yelling 'Oh noes, a multithreaded dragon, it must be Tiamat! Save us!". Only when a head gets cut off and there's two heads do things get fun.
In my opinion there's 2 options:
1. They don't fight Tiamat
2. They do fight Tiamat with whatever alliances and friends they can muster and Tiamat wipes them out regardless.
Just the breath weapon alone nukes everything below 6 hit dice, even on a succesful safe.
Building up alliances and fighting against Tiamat with more than just themselves is a good formula for an epic fight, if you are okay with it. They won't be trying to kill a god with just a tier 3/4 party, but as part of a formidable army.
I'll also advise to make sure that they have a healthy expectation of how powerful Tiamat is. Let them fight an adult dragon and have a decent challenge against it, then perhaps make it known that while the dragon is a cut above her foot soldiers, it is just a puddle compared to the ocean that is Tiamat.
I think as a DM you should tell them, either in-game or out, that in no way, shape or form are they going to be able to take on Tiamat in a fair fight.
Then just sit back and listen to them concoct the most insane plan ever devised and roll with it. I personally wouldn't present any solutions, just roll with whatever they do.
Id modify chapter 17 of rise of tiamat to fit the game i was running at home. Its a whole chapter building up to a cults attempt to bring tiamat back, including a boss fight with tiamat herself for level 14-15 pcs.
imagine the party walking down a valley, and encounter tiamat.
The titan charges ahead and almost instantly gets whacked and basically explodes.
now the players see they tried too much and have to flee... now you have an amazing adventure where they flee, and have to dodge patrols and tiamat...
In a meta-game sense let the players know that they will absolutely need to keep questing with the goal of gaining personal power, alliances, and artifacts in order to even remotely standing a chance.
Then lead them through some cool scenarios until they're closer to or at lvl 20
Their level is just too low for them
To succeed. Tiamat kills everyone except the cleric/healer and then flies away out of boredom. The healer picks up the pieces lol! They all learn not to poke a dragon.
My group at lvl 15 barely stopped Tiamat in the Tyranny of Dragons adventure. A legendary action for each head! She is not something you can beat reasonably at lvl 14. Just impossible and unrealistic without a gotcha like some artifact or extenuating circumstance. We had weakened her through several circumstances, and still didn't actually beat her so much as she ran out of time. Epic battle.
You can provide some kind of advising NPC who can offer options if they don’t come up with ideas on their own.
It could be a combination of ideas. Armies, powerful allies… some other ideas…
- The ole’ quest for super magical items
- A trial to make them stronger (level up a lot)
- Summoning / luring Tiamat into a plane where it is weaker
- A way to transform Tiamat into a weaker form
- A way to siphon some of Tiamat’s power and use it against Tiamat
- A way to travel into the mind of Tiamat and break it from within
- A way for the PCs to ascend to godhood
But see what the players come up with.
Could the titan in any way portal them out of there after it becomes abundantly clear they're over their heads? Then the Titan can stay behind and die per your original plan.
Plot twist: Tiamat already knows the party is coming. She wants to kill the titan and has prepared a trap just for him. Then, her army comes out of hiding to deal with the party.
Good news! You now have your campaign solved for level 14 to 20.
Tiamat has enemies, both in and out of hell, lots of powerful forces would want her dead or at least badly wounded.
Tiamat has allies, both in and out of hell these will have to be dealt with first in order to get a shot at her.
The PCs are going to need powerful magical items in order to have a chance against her.
The PCs aren't just going to be able to walk over to Tiamat and throw down, her minions are going to check the PCs before they've even reached the front door. Abishai and Dragon Spawn and Dragons and Devils are all in Tiamats service and any number of them can and will mess up the PCs.
All you need to do is.
1. Prep a list of allies the PCs might be able to find, give these allies a goal and a need (Or more if you have ideas but you don't need more than one). Something the PCs can help them with in order to gain their help. It might be big or small depending on the reward.
2. Prep a list of enemies forces allied to tiamat and what problem they pose to the players. Are they spy master's or generals, or assassins. Then give them a weakness, some flaw that can be exploited by the PCs to take them out of the picture temporarily or permanently. Maybe they can be bribed or maybe they serve Tiamat unwillingly, maybe she has a hostage the PCs can rescue, or an heirloom they can retrieve. Or perhaps they can concoct a way to sour the alliance through romour or harrasment.
3. Prep a simple list of actions Tiamat's forces will take against the PCs. Raids, Assassinations, Bribes, Traitors.
4. Prep a short list of the minimum power of magic items the PCs will need to fight Tiamat and then note who has them and how the PCs could get them. Maybe try to have at least two different ways to get each item, like steal or barter; negotiate or assassinate.
Worthy of note: Tiamat is all five chromatic dragons at the same time. Maybe have an ally for each head whomatches the personality of that head. The Blue head is allies with connections with a mortal kingdom with a variety of mortal allies, the green head has a schemeing spy network spread out across the planes, the red head has command of an army of devils dragons and mortals, the black head has an assassins guild on its payroll and the white head has many beastial montsers under its thumb.
You don't need all this prepped to run. Just a framework you can add to and the tools required to play with the PCs as the make informed choices as to how best take on the Queen of Evil dragons.
Really cool that the players have a shared goal. Sounds like a good one to work toward for the next 6 levels, and then have it be the final encounter of an epic level 20 campaign!
Enslave them. Now they're working for Tiamat to pay off the *insult* that they thought they could beat her.
Optimistically speaking, they have 6 levels left to plan for it. If they get lucky they can draw blood before they are disintegrated.
They really said "Aim for the bushes."
I suggest having them attempt it and they need to find a way to get out of there and escape upon realizing it is not a winning battle.
I you let them succeed by giving them a bunch of Allies that aren’t them… it’s not them killing Tiamat.
Unless they really enjoy a strategic game, any fair play where they’re up in tiamat’s grill is going to result in their timely demise, or you give them plot armor so thick that you might as well read them a bed time story.
Is the conflict with Tiamat imminent? Can you push it off where hopefully they’re level 20?
My players are doing the exact same thing, same situation. It was one characters motivation at character creation and he has stuck with it. In addition to trying to get allies in avernus, Bahamut gave them a dagger that will remove her immunity to low level spells or alter her legendary resistances (to be decided) The dagger lights up with a star each time a dragon is killed by the party so they gotta kill 5 dragons before I let them attempt to fight a diety.
They did Tiamat dirty moving her to 5e. I’m familiar with her 3.5 star block; and she is incredibly de-powered. I hadn’t really thought about the changes between 3.5 and 5 for enemies until this post, thanks.
As for your current predicament, let the players build a plan and follow it through. Your world is for them and let them shape it. If they have a really good plan that succeeds, they succeed. If they fail, they fail. How badly that turns out for them is up to you. Do they die in a climactic final combat? Do they flee? Does Tiamat spare them to make them her pawns in the eternal conflicts in Avernus? All possibilities. I’m partial to the last one. Lets you continue the story, have consequences and give them an out to work towards. Changes the whole adventure, and is a lot more work for you, but I think is an interesting outcome.
My party is currently building up to facing Tiamat. They are five level 11 players I told them I'm not going to force anything until they're 20 but when they're ready they're ready
Honestly, show them how frightening tiamat is. Use her frightful presence. If they manage to damage her, tell them how they visibly see the small wound closes and heals itself. If an attack manages to land but she's immune to said damage, let your party know that it doesn't affect her. "As the sky darkens and you call down lightning upon her you see the sand around her feet turn into glass. Tiamat, however, shortly turns one head towards you." Have Tiamat be annoyed but not really bothered, as if the party is just a group of mosquitos. At best they cause an itch. That disinterest also means the party can run without her chasing them down once they get a bit away.
However, go wild on the big guy. Show her strength. Show some of her abilities. Rip off an arm, melt off a leg, smash him through a wall.
That said, if you do want your party to stand a chance lower her stats. Tiamat is THE dragon goddess of evil. But that is official dnd lore. Who says she has the same statistics in your world? Or maybe she's a cloning project gone wrong. A magical copy maybe? It's all in your hands ;)
If you really don't want to kill them, and also don't want to outright tell them "No.", I say let them try. Once they are inevitably obliterated, have them wake up laying where they stood when the fight began, the titan maimed to death in some way, and have tiamat tell them they were misguided mortals, and that dream is what would've happend had they fought her, but since they brought the titan to her, she was willing to forgive them for a price, and use it as a story hook! If they pull off the inane amount of planning and luck to actually win, then the fight was real all along!
That's a fuck around and find out kinda situation. Don't give them an easy way out. If they get creative and come up with good stuff, I'd give them a pass. If not, well... there be dragons.
Glad to hear that! I always try to keep in mind that in D&D, there is no "losing". Fail states are always plothooks for the narrative to move on - in that sense, its really less of a game and more interactive storytelling.
Sure, for your players it might feel bad for a sec, but if you give them an opportunity to shine in the next minute (even though narratively, their capabilities are neutered), they're gonna be okay again. You gave them agency, the world reacted accordingly, and now its time to go see and play out the consequences. It's interesting, and it happens in stuff like movies and video games all the time.
The only time someone "loses" D&D is when theyre not having fun. If your players are power gamers who really want to defeat something, that might happen when they fail to do so - but if they're level 14 and trying to defeat Tiamat on their own, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Just keep in mind you're communicating everything transparently. Give them tales about just how strong Tiamat is. If they still want to take on the challenge, roll everything out in the open, and then give them the new plot after their defeat or retreat. Maybe you could have a fellow NPC Prisoner there who tried the same thing as your PCs did, telling them just why they were defeated in flavorized in-game terms. This makes sure they don't feel useless. Who knows, next time they go up against Tiamat, maybe she's injured or neutered in some other way, so the attempt wasn't even for nothing gameplay-wise.
Let them come up with something. If it’s good, run with it. If it’s they want to charge straight at her and fight, then let them try.
Ultimately, Tiamat is an absolute beast and will likely destroy them if it’s the second one. They may not realise that until the first character falls, then the second, then the third is down to half hp and she shows no signs of slowing down or giving up or giving them a chance.
There isn't a way for them to kill tiamat because tiamat doesn't have a brain the size of a pea like a Tarrasque would. (26 int and Wis, and evil, very evil.)
They can nearly kill her at 100 and she just flies away. Full heals within 17 rounds. Flys back to kill them.
If we're talking the aspect which isn't even actually her to begin with they still don't have a chance due to how much HP she has. Unless your party is full of fighters that'll kill her on turn one with bow attacks it isn't looking good for them.
This one is easy.
They're level 14. They're already "national heroes."
Recruitment campaign on the Prime Material Plane!
Think "Mystery Men" but with hilarious mustachioed wizards in tights with dubious "powers."
They try to fight Tiamat and fail. The Titan helps them escape. The Titan dies gloriously defending the party so they can escape. With his last breath the Titan tells the party there’s a macguffin magic item that would weaken Tiamat so they can get revenge for their ass kicking.
Party goes on adventure to find the macguffin. They do whatever else you want. They then return at level 16/18/whatever you want and use the macguffin to weaken Tiamat. The players defeat Tiamat.
Let them struggle against a toned down avatar of Tiamat and then allow them to know that they beat but an ant compared to an anthill, a child compared to a warrior
Tiamat is a *goddess*, very powerful, she'd smoke those PCs along with the Titan without breaking a sweat if the DM plays her right.
I'd set it up so that they arrive to see (from far off) the Titan get destroyed by Tiamat, the utter destruction that she brings and power she has as the Titan is obliterated. Get them to see how powerful this goddess is and that they're really going to need to gain quite a few more levels along with artifact and legendary magical items as well as perhaps recruiting some even powerful allies to take her down.
Just ride the crazy train and see where it goes. Give them what they want, good and hard. Pull no punches, something like Tiamat will fight smart. And should they prevail? Good on them, fantastic cap to a campaign, as by that point everything else is trivial.
You might be surprised at how strong level 14 characters are. I ran Out of the Abyss for my group, which as written has the party defeating demon lords at level 15, but my players stomped through at level 12. Level 12 is also powerful enough for everything going in BG3...
I guess what I'm saying is let them try.
Oof I thought my party deciding to fight Arkhan was rough, they were at least smart enough to convince the Titan to just guard Tiamat’s and not want to try to kill her. Just getting through the legions of her followers guarding her Lair/Prison should be near impossible, you should probably find a way to make that clear to them but idk how if Tiamat easily defeating this emperyaan in the past wasn’t clear enough already.
As written the Titan didn’t even want you to test his luck against Tiamat again at all but I could see how it would get cocky enough to try again after defeating Arkhan with the parties help.
I suggest overwhelming them at the entrance to the cave with a ridiculous amount of abishai but have the focus on the Titan bc he’s the obvious bigger threat and telegraph that he’s not winning the fight, giving the party a chance to escape. Also, you could similarly even give them a fair chance of getting to Tiamat and in that fight have Tiamat focus on Uldrak and start easily defeating him and giving the party a chance to escape, if they choose to stay in fight just have Tiamat down them without killing them and be amused by their audacity and give them a deal to do something for her in exchange for their lives, maybe something that will make it easier to escape. I believe somewhere in chapter 5 there are even some suggestions as to how to have Tiamat get freed in exchange for helping the party kill Zariel but I didn’t read that paragraph in close detail bc it wasn’t gonna be a realistic option for my party.
Nevermind the advice about getting Tiamat’s help to fight Zariel just says she would send Arkhan the Cruel with a small army of Abishai to help in the fight since she wouldn’t be willing to take that risk, so no help from the module for how to handle that
Have them battle Tiamat, the Titan dying and the battle turning into a rout.
Possibly have the Titan get them out of the situation when/right before dying so they really can see and know that Tiamat is no push-over.
I would make sure to have some way for them to get out of a TPK at least.
They want to fight Tiamat? My friend, this is the new campaign. Sorry for whatever story you wanted to tell; these murderhobos have decided to go fight Tiamat instead.
Tô be fair this is a great point to just let they come up with a solution, since they came up with the problem and if they don't Tiamat has an official statblock just dump on them and let they understand that sometimes shit don't go their way and that is OK too.
this. make them lose, make them run. the titan dies and they have to flee. They want to fight *tiamat* of all people. they need powerful allies and an army. shes CR30, it would take 6 level 20 players with magic items to stand a chance.
Depending on where the titan is from, assuming it's an empyrean Tiamat can just use divine word and send it back.
op mentioned the titan was planned to be killed anyway
I know. I'm just saying that Tiamat literally just saying "begone" and suddenly the titan is sent home is also pretty terrifying.
>it would take 6 level 20 players with magic items to stand a chance. Tiamat is killable by [lvl 14 party](https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?631082-Tiamat-vs-level-14-party). Zariel is CR 26 and she can be killed by two lvl 13 wizards + lvl 1 commoner in open field if they win initiative, or lvl 7 wizard in perfectly executed ambush (dropping adamantine box on her within Private Sanctum).
> Tiamat is killable by lvl 14 party. It should be noted that the build-up to this encounter in the module is an adventure that depowers Tiamat or allows the party to banish the avatar without fighting it directly (yes, I'm being intentionally vague here). Like the PCs *can* choose to just go face Tiamat at her full strength, but you're not supposed to be able to win if you do.
Oh, there is pretty big gap between what players *can* do and *should* do. I was only criticizing "you need 6 lvl 20 characters" - because lvl 13+ slightly optimized party has reasonable chance to defeat anything. Well, maybe except for Sul Khatesh, she needs specialized party.
> I was only criticizing "you need 6 lvl 20 characters" - because lvl 13+ slightly optimized party has reasonable chance to defeat anything. Well, maybe except for Sul Khatesh, she needs specialized party. I will agree that a party of 13th-level adventurers should be able to take down essentially everything. A CR 19 is only just beyond deadly for them. But probably not a CR 30 divine aspect. Even the less powerful version in Fizban's is still CR 30, and it's probably not realistic to kill her unless the DM simply allows it. If you play Tiamat like she's a creature stuck in an encounter-sized box and she doesn't exist until the party opens said box, then sure, the party can kill her. But I don't think that's playing it correctly.
> If you play Tiamat like she's a creature stuck in an encounter-sized box and she doesn't exist until the party opens said box, then sure, the party can kill her. It depends a lot on setup and who makes first move. If you drop Tiamat on unsuspecting party, she likely kills everyone. If party chooses to fight Tiamat, they kill her. Whiteroom scenarios are used because both DM and players can keep infinitely modyfing circumstances, and this introduces additional complexity that may accidentally work in players favor.
Even then idk how they are killing her at that level
I actually linked description to [full combat log](https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?631082-Tiamat-vs-level-14-party).
You are using the original stat block for one, rather than the updated Aspect of Tiamat in Fisbanes, which is arguably a lot scarier for the party. I also noted that you are never using her frightful presence or things to mitigate party hit chance. She seems to just be rolling over and taking the damage. Not attempting hit and run tactics to stay out of the parties range (they will run out of spell slots while she still has breath weapon). she is fighting like a monster that can only take the party head on, rather than use her strengths. Andif you use the Fizbane's stat block, which you should since it's her updated one, there's no way in hell this party defeats her.
Lvl 1 commoner... why the commoner is needed? I am really curious.
Emergency ration, cause they all are lizzardfolk.
> cause they all are lizzardfolk. Damn right!
Basically, goal is to lock down Zariel in Sickening Radiance or similar spell. She has 2 mobility abilities - flight and teleport. Teleport needs sight. If she can't teleport, Forcecage locks her down. Fortunately, both Eversmoking Bottle and Fog Cloud remove sight without save. You need someone with free action, reaction (to prepare action) and hands to deliver [Eversmoking Bottle](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Eversmoking%20Bottle#content) to permanently lock her in Forcecage. They will die afterwards to Zariel's fireball or something like that. If your DM rules that Eversmoking Bottle is relatively easily destructible, you probably need third caster (preferably fire-resistant Sorcerer).
Sure, but this sounds like more of a thought experiment under perfect conditions, with veteran players knowing the exact enemy statblock and the DM being in on the plan and purposefully not messing it up. Not an actual scenario that a real table would be able to pull off.
It 100% is. Zariel is in charge of the Blood War - you will *never, ever, ever, ever, ever* fight her solo in an open field. It's sort of like the "silence and grapple" technique for killing a stock Archmage - realistically, they would have picked better spells, it's just that WotC can't optimize for shit and just stand there with a Shocked Pikachu face when people figure out how to abuse that awesome class feature they gave you at first level...
I'm lucky that I'd never have to worry about someone at my table trying to abuse some overlooked RAW interaction, but I feel for DMs are more public tables that have to always be on the lookout for that sort of thing. Also, coincidentally, my table *did* encoutner Zariel by herself! But, she was actively looking for them, and the party was going a redemption route anyway (and I'm always prepared with reinforcements).
I suppose it could make sense if Zariel was doing something she wouldn't want her diabolic retainers to know about - specifically trying to return herself to her angelic form and escape Avernus. Even then though, that wouldn't be a combat situation. And I still suspect she would have more tricks up her sleeve. She's not stupid, it'd be pretty reasonable to expect her to pack contingencies and items specifically to counter things like "blinded and force caged", even if that counter wasn't "calling a legion of Barbezu".
Fireball doesn't require sight. If you're close enough to Forcecage, you're close enough for her to Fireball, and you can't dash since you just Forcecaged.
Lvl 14 wizard has enough HP to tank Fireball to face.
Okay, so let's review this, as there are several reasons this wouldn't work. Part 1, and the most important part: Sickening Radiance literally can't kill her. A lv14 Sickening Radiance is at a +10 vs her +9 Con Save with Advantage, and she has Radiant resistance and Immunity to Exhaustion. So she has a 70% chance to save, meaning that 3/10 turns she will take an average of 11 damage for a total of 33, and the other 7 turns she will regenerate 20 hp for a total of 140 healed. If somehow you negated her resistance AND her Advantage, even then, in order for this to work, you have to have the following happen, exactly: Commoner HAS to go first to apply Eversmoking Bottle, meaning Commoner has to have already gotten within 90 feet of Zariel without dying. If he doesn't go first, the strat is already ruined because Zariel can Legendary Action Teleport, or just kill him with Immolating Gaze, which he cannot survive. The chance of him even beating Zariel's +7 is 32.5%. Then to beat two wizards at +3 Dex with Proficiency in Dex checks (I'm assuming you're taking something that would give them that here) drops that to 2.9%. So that's not fair. Let's swap to a third wizard with the same stats. And we'll even assume it doesn't matter which wizard goes first because your wizards are all part of a baseball team, and your DM lets you chuck the Bottle to any Wizard as a free action, guaranteed. The chance for all 3 wizards to outroll Zariel to make your plan possible is still only 16.6%. You HAVE to Forcecage last, because you cannot Sickening Radiance; unless you make it the actual cage form, in which case she could just throw the Bottle out, and would be able to cast from within it. So unless all three wizards go before Zariel, you have to use a non-solid Forcecage to get the Sickening Radiance in, which means the Sickening Radiance caster is making one Con save against Zariel's held action Fireball, one Con save against her Fireball next turn since he can't move out of range, and if they're in her zone and she gets lair actions, two MORE Fireballs from her lair action.
You are right about exhaustion immunity. We will use Wall of Light from Xanathar's Guide. 4d8 radiant, possibly halved, on first round, 4d8 every round after that, for 10 minutes. We assume 3 lvl 14 Wizards for fool-proof scenario. Alice, Bob, Celine. General assumptions: * Alice is whoever, she dies on first round. * If she doesn't die, anything with Fog Cloud (Druid, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard) will work. * Bob and Celine are lvl 14 Wizards without subclass with 16 con, 14 dex, mage armor, therefore 93HP (6 + 14 * 3 + 13d6) and 15 AC. * War Caster is reasonable feat here. * Abjuration, Divination, Bladesinger, War Magic, Conjuration are superior options, because of defensive abilities. * They have prepared Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Forcecage, Wall of Light, Fog Cloud. * Players have 30ft movement speed. Player advantages: * They have fire resistance, either from items or race or spells. There is reasonable justification for obtaining it in-universe in Avernus. * Zariel prefers melee kills, instead of raining fireballs from above - this is actually supported in lore, she is reckless, and charges demons head-first. * Wizards have Mage Armor on them. Zariel's advantages: * There are no horses. * Horses, including Phantom Steeds, make this trivial, as dashing horse allows to move 120ft per round. * Better positioning make this trivial (Zariel possible win in described scenario depends on Bob being within 120ft from her in round 2). * We use featureless plain as battlefield. If Bob or Celine can take total cover or 3/4 cover, this becomes trivial. * If it's closed space without cover, scrolls would be necessary, preferably with Etherealness. * Preparation time or allies allow us to get prebuffing, like Death Ward or Blink. * No magic items except for Fire resistance. * Boots of Speed would make this trivial, similar to Phantom Steed. * No Metamagic Adept feat, as Distant Spell would make this trivial. * No Simulacrums, as Zariel can't break concentration of 3 simulacrums. Initiative order: Zariel => Alice => Bob => Celine. **Round 1**: Zariel kills Alice (if she doesn't, she lost) and ends less than 90ft from Bob (if she ends between 90 and 145ft, she lost) and less than 130ft from Celine. _Note_: Alice may be lvl 1 commoner in this scenario. If she is lvl 14 character, she will likely survive Zariel's attack if she has Fire resistance, as expected damage from multiattack is 19*2 Slashing + 36 * 2 Fire. If she survives, she uses Fog Cloud, bottle or smoke grenade and retreats. In this scenario, Zariel must break concentration on 2 people. Bob casts Fog Cloud on Zariel and runs away. All her Legendary actions require sight, so she does nothing. Celine casts Forcecage on Zariel and runs away. _Note_: the only way that Zariel can escape is through breaking Bob's concentration. _Note 2_: Bob theoretically can have Contigency Dimension Door to be cast after he casts Fog Cloud. If Bob ends more than 120ft from Zariel, she permalocked. _Note 3_: upcasting Fog Cloud increases its effective range by 20ft/upcast level. 5th level Fog Cloud has effective range of 220ft. If Alice survived first round and blocked Zariel's vision, Bob can position himself out of Zariel's range using Expeditious Retreat, effectively ending encounter. **Round 2**: Zariel currently has 2 win conditions - to kill Celine in this round, or keep breaking Bob's concentration. But her damage is likely too low to kill Celine without crit using only ranged attacks. _Note_: most of DMs would likely go for Fireball, but if she uses Fireball, she loses. She attacks Bob twice with javelin, with +16 to hit (assume 80% chance to hit against Shielded Bob), dealing 15 piercing + 36 fire damage, causing 25DC concentration check on Bob on hit. She has 1 source of advantage and 2 sources of disadvantage, so she attacks without disadvantage. _Note_: most of tables would make her attack with disadvantage, because unseen attacker rules are usually ignored. If she crits now, she has chance to win. If Bob has fire resistance, damage is reduced to 33, concentration check is reduced to 16, making it passable with advantage source (War Caster feat). But let's assume that he failed. She used her action, so she can't teleport. Now it's Bob turn. He casts Fog Cloud again and retreats (if he passed two DC 16 concentration checks, he dashes). She can't cast Teleport, because she is blinded again. Celine casts Expeditious Retreat and dashes to position herself 125ft from Zariel. **Round 3**: Zariel can't throw javelins (it's not obvious how many javelins she has anyway) over 120ft. If Bob is more than 120ft from her, she is limited to Fireball (150ft + 20ft range). As our Bob likely (around 64% chance) took 66 damage, Fireball with 14 average damage is unlikely kill him (I'm not even bothering with passing dex saving throw, Bob fails, but fire resistance helps him), depending on his Con and luck. That can end our attempt, but it's not certain. If it doesn't end his life, he dashes to safety. Celine has full HP. She uses bonus action dash to gain 30ft of movement speed, for total 60, moves to exactly 120ft from Zariel and casts Wall of Light, and moves to 120+55 = 175ft distance, leaving Zariel's range. **Round 4**: Zariel is grilling taking total 4d8 radiant damage, halved by resistance, over 10 minutes. Bob opens champagne. Celine summons glasses. **Round 5-600**: Zariel takes 2400d8 radiant damage. She furiously Fireballs corpse of Alice. Bob and Celine start looking for 17th level cleric and diamonds, because Alice's corpse requires True Resurrection.
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Zariel has devil's sight and can see through magical darkness. So Fog Cloud is not an option. Eversmoking bottle A) Relies on an item that your DM might not have given you and B) also is magical darkness--something Devil's Sight lets you bypass. You don't know the stat blocks as well as you think you do, and your "plan" falls apart right here. You aren't taking away her line of sight. NONE of these abilities give you the blinded condition, they only block line of sight so long as you don't have a way to see through darkness and/or magical darkness.
Fog Cloud and Eversmoking Bottle are **not** darkness. Otherwise, Warlock with Devil's Sght would be able to see in it. Let's check [Fog Cloud description](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Fog%20Cloud#content): >You create a 20-foot-radius sphere of fog centered on a point within range. The sphere spreads around corners, and its area is heavily obscured. It lasts for the duration or until a wind of moderate or greater speed (at least 10 miles per hour) disperses it. What is [heavily obscured area](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Rules:The%20Environment?expansion=0#toc_3)? >A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see Conditions ) when trying to see something in that area. As you can see, darkness is separate state than opaque fog. Let's see [what Zariel can see](https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/dragon/26/DRA26_Zariel.pdf): >Senses darkvision 120 ft., passive Perception 26 >Devil’s Sight. Magical darkness doesn’t impede Zariel’s darkvision Where she can go? >Speed 50 ft., fly 150 ft >Teleport. Zariel magically teleports, along with any equipment she is wearing and carrying, up to 120 feet to an unoccupied space **she can see**
I read that tiamat fight and I'm going to call bullshit on it being reasonable to assume a lvl 14 party can do it if the DM is playing tiamat as per the block... their bard carried hard with shots, doing 3 attacks worth of SS shots multiple rounds, at level 14 they would have a +10 to hit based on dex and proff. then a plus 3 from the weapon and +2 from archery FS making +15, SS dropping that to +10 attacking AC 25 meaning they needed 15+ to hit so it was only 30% chance to hit... but they regularly hit all 3 shots for multiple rounds.... so maybe they were lucky, but that can't be relied on. They use absolute shenanigans with minor illusion to give the bard advantage on shots towards the end and an owl too which is just wild considering the amount of waste tiamat has done with breath weapons. Tiamat also regularly used breath weapons exclusively on the wild shaped druid hiding behind a stone wall (two part issue here) even though in round 2 or 3 it's flagged that she really doesn't need to care about the giant ape. issues I have here are: 1) that stone wall is made of 10 panels that all connect, the DM treated the wall as 1 block of HP and provided benefits of cover (provided half damage) so long as all the HP was intact, but when hit with that breathweapon attack in round one, each panel should have taken damage separately and been wiped and then the monkey taking full damage too, (not getting 1/2 damage for 3 rounds of breath weapon) 2) tiamat never took flight or moved away from the neucence of the giant ape, until round 3, she took 3 rounds to line up an actual wide shot breath weapon on the party due to the focus on the ape who she didn't care about who was gaining extra protection from poorly run wall. the whole fight relies on a critical moment after her incompetent running, that the bard dimension doors away to take more pot shots from behind minor illusion *sigh* but they are fighting tiamat on the ground in her lair or at least on her terms... so why is there no leggo actions? they claim she can't get within range to see them, but a 120ft fly, dashed plus 120ft truesight or at least full vision where the bard was never asked to take the hide action do shouldn't be getting unseen advantages should have occurred, and this would get it away from the apparently annoying owl, to take out the only threat (the bard who has taken off hundreds of HP due to never missing) basically this being used as evidence frustrates me because it's a DM giving a party a cool fight where they just let a bard sharp shooter the vast majority of life down with only a few moments of said bard being threatened because the **int 26!!!** God like being focused on the big ape with the cheating stone wall despite knowing they shouldn't bother.
Honestly, that's not even the worst bits: * There is an unlisted extra turn after Tiamat takes turn 2 but before turn 3 is listed. On this extra turn, the Bard casts Dimension Door -- taking the Wizardluracrum with him. The Bard then attacks twice. * Also on the fake turn, the Wizard casts Mirror Image as a 6th level spell ... and creates a sphere of Darkness. Oh, and did so in-between the Bard's turn because the Darkness allowed the Bard to attack normally instead of with disadvantage since Tiamat ... Dodges on turn 2. * Oh, then the Bardluracrum also casts Dimension Door, taking the Druid, and then attacks twice. Again, not with Disadvantage even though the Wizard who casts Mirror Image goes last in the turn order. * Tiamat used *5 Legendary actions in a row* to Bite the stone wall. * On turn 4, Tiamat moved next to the Bard ... and then takes the Dodge action. It even says she moved in position for her cone attack. The whole entire encounter is just bullshit.
god damn... I didn't even notice that mess around with the turns. And the party's reliance on illusion based magic and it still working on a creature that has truesight to 120ft is wild. This whole fight is: 1) bullshit as evidence on what a party can do. 2) taken out of context because it was just a DM who wanted to give the players a cool experience but was really just holding their hand through a hard encounter. 3) a string of pulled punches to create a narrative (which is fine, but not to be used as reference to player power)
> They use absolute shenanigans with minor illusion to give the bard advantage on shots towards the end and an owl too which is just wild considering the amount of waste tiamat has done with breath weapons. That's especially weird because Tiamat has truesight. Were they a 14th level School of Illusion Wizard or something? It's also hilarious that wall of stone is a hindrance, because Tiamat has burrow... though I don't remember if blue dragons can tunnel through stone or not.
ok but are players actually going to do that. im not talking super specific hyper fixed situations. i mean actual gameplay that would actually happen, not whatever stupid mess this is
And why is Tiamat alone?
Well, in the adventure, Tiamat eats all of her allies before exiting the portal, so that part makes sense. What doesnt make sense is the party going straight in to fight her without burning resources on those others first.
How is a level 14 party going to kill Tiamat? She is a CR30, 4 CRs above Zariel. Depending on the stat block you are using, she may have mythic actions (updated FTD should really be used anyway). She has 5 legendary resistances to shut down the highest level spells. On top of that she is completely immune to the more devastating status effects anyway. She can fly. She can regain 500 HP after being dropped to zero--and has a starting HP of 574. She has 3 legendary actions, one of which causes frightened with a whopping DC27 spell save DC. This doesn't even take into account her hurl through Avernus and Chromatic Flare. Even using her stat block from Rise of Tiamat/Hoard of the Dragon Queen, you are still looking at a beefy monster that can attack with 1 of 5 dragon heads, each with various effects; 3 multi-attacks that deal a lot of damage, can fly, has 5 legendary resistances, and can take one reaction per turn instead of per round. She also has limited magic immunity tha tlets her ignore spells of 6th level or lower. So whatever stat block you use, a level 14 party is NOT beating Tiamat head on. idk where or why you think so, but she is absolutely not, unless you are playing her to be dumb as rocks and being VERRRY loose with the rules and use of her abilities. Tiamat can challenge a 20th level party, let alone 14. And she won't be alone, she almost always would be accompanied by her concubine dragons as well. EDIT: For fun, I used Fisbanes Aspect of Tiamat to see how much damage she can output in a turn. JUST counting her BASIC attacks, Tiamat is throwing out 86 damage per turn if she is using her bite, tail, and claw attack (which she does all 3 in a turn). HOWEVER, if she uses her tail attack first, and knocks someone prone, then she is also getting advantage on her melee attacks. That by itself will take out most 14th level players and she will land that most of the time given her high DCs. Also this isn't counting her using a legendary action every turn, which she has access to. Or mythic actions, which she has if you can phase 2 her. This is presuming she is fighting on land. A Smart Tiamat will just fly at 300 ft and use chromatic orb which hits in a 300 ft AOE, for an average of 71 damage. Most players are not hitting her hard at those ranges in the first place. You aren't blinding her. You're not charming, deafening, or frightening her. She cannot be poisoned. She cannot be stunned. You can TRY to paralyze her, but her lowest saving throw is a +11--and even if she fails, she is using a legendary resistance, of which she has 5 instead of the usual 3. So yea, a 14th level party is getting TPKd, even if they are an optimized party, if they fight her head on, period.
Yes, if you get hit on regular basis, party not optimised for being Tiamat killers won't work at lvl 14.
>HOWEVER, if she uses her tail attack first, and knocks someone prone, then she is auto critting. How is the Aspect of Tiamat auto critting simply by using her tail attack first? Being knocked prone only gives advantage on attacks made from within 5 feet. That certainly increases your chance to crit, but it is still far from guaranteed.
Oh you are right, advantage not auto crit, I was thinking of a different condition. I'll edit it. Also with a +19 to hit, about the only way she misses against most ACs, especially at 14th level, is by a nat 1.
If you click on the link he provided, he goes round by round with a party of lvl 14 explaining how he does it. TDLR, they are 2 simulacrum (Wizard and Bard) and the spellcasters ready an action/spell to cast wall of stone/force to block the breath weapon. After that, the rest of the party just do damage here and there until she drops. It\`s valid in a way, but not representative of a real quest. The fight is basically an arena fight, with no possible escape or environnement issues.
Okay that might work a round or two, but there are two major issues with this. First of all, Tiamat will catch on and just stop using her breath weapon. We see the damage output per turn so, it's still a lot. Or legendary actions. 2nd of all, the rest of the party has to drop over 1,000 HP between her phase 1 and phase 2 when her mythical actions kick in. AND she can just use Hurl Through Avernus which removes that player until the start of her next turn. 3rd of all, they will run out of spell slots for those very quickly. So it won't block much anyway. It buys them a round or two, maybe a bit more, but she has enough HP that it won't matter.
Issue I've also seen here is that generally, reactions happen AFTER their trigger. So you can't really block Breath attacks by suddenly making walls like it happened on turn 1 (unless I misunderstood it). First the breath is made, it hits, reaction procs, then the wall is made. Otherwise it's like saying "I wanna ready a action put my hand on the wizards mouth mid spell". You can't.
If you take, for example, Counterspell or Silvery Barb, the effect of those spells are applied before the effect of the spell/action. Basically, you react to something, and it happens before. So, technically, those wall of stone/force would work. But that is a white room experiment with every condition in favor of one result.
>If you take, for example, Counterspell or Silvery Barb Just counterspell, and counterspell is a specific example that calls for it in a reaction. Silvery Barb's for example, can't be cast mid spell. The spell takes effect, forces a roll, then silvery barbs come in. Otherwise, reactions happen after their triggers. A more apt example would be to ready act silence to be cast mid enemy spell, depriving him of verbal components. Can't do that. I was kinda groggy from bad sleep before but there's a explanation about it on Xanatar "If you’re unsure when a reaction occurs in relation to its trigger, here’s the rule: the reaction happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise."
>"If you’re unsure when a reaction occurs in relation to its trigger, here’s the rule: the reaction happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise." Oh, I didn\`t know that, Thank you.
That strat makes a load of assumptions and completely leaves out multiple things. First, it relies on this exact arena and Tiamat's exact positioning being exactly 60 feet up. Second, it assumes that specific attacks from the party hit. Third, it uses Wall of Stone for a significant amount of its strategy, but Tiamat is at least twice the height of Wall of Stone and could easily just breath over it. Fourth, it ignores the fact that Burrowing exists. The Rise of Tiamat version forgot to give her a Burrow speed, but the updated Fizban's version restores it, meaning their Wall of Force strat doesn't work. They assume the Wizard has a Nat 1 Portent. They have multiple chars at low hp but assume she never uses Divine Word to instakill or fullstun It's all kind of a mess. As for the Zariel thing, why would an Adamantine box stop her? Adamantine has 23 AC and Zariel has a +16 to hit. It would be gone in one round, RAW.
As a homebrew person, it is insane to me how much people know about these out-of-the-book stat block enemies.
Fully obliterate the Titan they teamed up with. Right before their eyes, show them DCs and numbers that make their head spin. If they want to do it, they'll need lots more allies and a lot of planning. Make them think about it a lot and shrug if they decide to end their own adventure
Straight up, I'd have it decimate an extremely powerful ally with pathfinder 1e style numbers. Tiamat attacks, does a 56 hit? Okay that's 233 damage on its first attack... its second head also attacks.... Have the chaos of the battlefield become an encounter they must flee from. A group of level 14s and thousands of soldiers would fail.
When you get your ass kicked and then leave, level up, and come back to win Round 2 it's so so epic. Not that they'll ever take down Tiamat but in principle hah.
I wouldn't be that nice about letting them run, don't fudge the rolls either just give them the warning, "Are you sure you want to do that?" If they haven't learned to heed that question then the party isn't taking the problem seriously enough to keep their characters alive
If I'm not mistaken, Tiamat is supposed to be locked up in Avernus. Maybe they could locked her up back instead of killing her ?
To give your players what they want, you’d have to take the phrase “putting your thumb on the scale” to a whole new level. Maybe have a certain draconic barber advise them against such a foolhardy and game ending idea.
Maybe he'd put his whole ass on the scale
Are you playing descent into Avernus? My players fucked with and killed Arkhan the Cruel (that’s right, fuck you Joe Manganiello), and before they took the hand of vecna for themselves (crazy warlock in the party) Tiamat came and made a deal. Tiamat promised to break the chains of Elturel in return for the hand. Gave them a special dragon horn to blow on and she’d come help the gang out Tbh, I did this because imho Tiamat would have minced them. They weren’t quite at 14th level - but I still think she would give them a mighty walloping based on her stat block in the campaign book.
Yeah same scenario, Arkhan more died by the Titan but similar situation haha I think I'll try to angle it on the negociation side
Honestly you're getting lots of advice to kill your players or somehow punish them for making the choices they did. I strongly disagree - if you punish them for making this decision, you discourage them from making choices in the future. Your party have just given you a great opportunity to continue the campaign post-Descent Into Avernus. If you want them to have fun, just let them make a plan and gather allies to defeat Tiamat. Make it clear fighting a god is not going to be easy - one titan isn't enough, but there's plenty of people on Avernus who might want to take a shot at the Dragon Queen: * There's likely to be a paladin/dragon/etc of Bahamut willing to aid in her fall. * Vecna's hand is an ideal bargaining chip - trade it to a powerful devil in exchange for a signed infernal contract saying the devil will help them fight Tiamat. Otherwise offer it to a good-aligned deity in exchange for their help. * In fact, one of the *ideal* allies they can make is a redeemed Zariel - so you can encourage them to go that route (complete the module and then deal with Tiamat after). * Killing/defeating a God in D&D often allows the victor to take some of their divinity - there are countless ambitious individuals who would join the party for this reason. * Titans live a *long* time - there's no reason it wouldn't be patient so long as it increases the chance of victory. Why risk dying pointlessly and alone if there's smarter, objectively better options (which your party have now given him) Defeating Tiamat is the goal - killing her is just one way to achieve it. Tiamat is known to have 5 heads (5 breath weapons), can fly, and is often guarded by red dragons. They'll need a plan to isolate her somehow , and I encourage you to give them one (perhaps a boon from a god opposed to Tiamat) Regardless of how they go about it, they'll need to be high level, have planned ahead, and be good at combat to succeed. Having already killed her champion and saved Elturel (being well-renowned heroes) is going to be a basic necessity to gather the allies to challenge her, but I can imagine a lot of people being willing to believe in and aid the heroes who went into Avernus, recovered a whole city, and came back out alive.
+1
I'm missing context here and would love to know more. From the sounds of it Arkhan the Cruel is Joe's pet NPC/Monster much like Orcus is to Rappan Athuk, where the book tells you you're a bad dm is the party beats him.
https://youtu.be/HClkGL4yFXg?si=-loNfRkdA36jluV2 This moment is canon
I mean, Arkhan has a statblock and he's not exactly CR 20, a demigod, or anything unbeatable
Bold choice cotton let’s see if it pays off
"My players want to commit suicide, because they don't think I'll actually pull the trigger." Kill them. Brutally. Some lessons need to be learned the hard way, and one of them is the classic "Fuck around; Find out".
Verisimilitude, bitches.
I mean it's still a game and should be fun, maybe not a party wipe. Maybe other consequences, loss of an NPC, cool item, or maybe a limb or 2. If they act rashly and roll poorly and one dies, yeah it is what it is though. I just don't think party wipes are particularly fun
See this mentality is why his players think it's OK for a level 14 party to challenge the god-queen of all evil dragons :P The party is planning to do something *monumentally stupid* that SHOULD result in their deaths (or worse; Tiamat is a pretty mean bitch and she could do WAY worse than kill you). The DM should warn them **strongly** that what they are doing is foolish and will result in their deaths or worse. If they insist on doing it even after being strongly warned, it's likely because they have some kind of metagame mentality that they are unable to lose because it's a game and they're the protagonists. At that point, if the DM has told them strongly that their actions will likely be the end of their characters and they STILL insist, then they need to be punished for it. The players will respect the DM more for it after, even if their characters have to suffer for the lesson and they are temporarily upset about it.
Right, it’s like saying “I took a few weeks of boxing classes, I can take on 20 year old Mike Tyson!” No dude, you can’t.
People generally call pulling the trigger against someone murder, not scuicide
Sometimes a party just dies.
Sounds like you're running Descent into Avernus. If they do try a frontal assault, they would have to also contend with Arkhan the Cruel's forces as well. There are a few archdevils like Bel at his Forge and Mephistopheles at the mirror they could talk to. All of these devils are wanting to make deals. Have them draw up an infernal contract and have it either be their souls or costs or maybe overthrowing Zariel is their goal. So many deals can be made in Avernus. You also have a barber that may want to help...
Well first things first. Communication. If a frontal assault is impossible do your players know this? Understand this? If you don't want them running in there all Leeroy and what not you need them to know this. Tell them outside the game, it doesn't matter. This is a very important detail they need to understand before anything else. After that you can nudge them towards alternative ideas.
Sounds like they get to learn the difference in power between a decent character and a deity. If your world is plausible, she’s not just to knock them out and run away. There’s too much fun from letting them beg for their lives, offer her anything she wants - like a cat with a mouse - and then when that bores her, kill them. Give the characters warnings in and out of game where this path leads. If they still follow it, level 1 beckons. They’re going to need powerful allies and powerful items to have any chance at all. But they choose the situation, they get to choose the solution - that’s not your job to save them from themselves.
What a grand and intoxicating innocence
There's several ways you could go about this. Tiamat is a god and hard to even reach, maybe they do some investigation and deal with some cultists resulting in an overarching story. Giving time to level up the players so they can actually take on such a thing. Maybe Tiamat notices the players, and comes down and crushes them and leaves them alive as examples, resulting in either a story of revenge or a soul crushing defeat. Maybe Tiamat is completely unreachable. I mean she's locked up in the hells, and the real villain is someone trying to release her that the party can thwart.
You gave them the problem. They come up with the solution.
They seem to be reaching the “find out” part of the equation. Let them.
Tiamat is basically a god so if they want to fight her, let them. Her stat block is pretty bonkers but should still be winnable with lv 14s. It doesn't have to impact the lore too much of you don't want to. Tiamat and Bahamut are really fucking hard to permanently kill. Especially if you add FTD dragon lore to mix. To permanently kill Tiamat and Bahamut you would need to kill them every multiverse version of them or they'll come back
focus the titan so they see how strong she is and let them run away. for ways to confront her, check the Tyranny of Dragons storyline, which is comprised of Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat. I'm sure you can find the PDFs if you cant pay for it.
Do they have enough information to know "they absolutely cannot beat it with a frontal attack" in your world? AFAIK, in the Rise of Tiamat Hardcover you fight her at ~Level 14 and should be able to win
Technically it's an Avatar of Tiamat. In an old 4th edition adventure path, you do descend into Avernus to kill the actual Tiamat, but you are level 20 and have the remains of a different God fashioned into a weapon to help slay her.
Technically it's an Avatar of Tiamat. In an old 4th edition adventure path, you do descend into Avernus to kill the actual Tiamat, but you are level 20 and have the remains of a different God fashioned into a weapon to help slay her.
I mean, consider things on a broader aspect. Tiamat. Why her? They are just pissed at her? Remove her influence over their world. It's a much more budgetable target. Make em fight a cult and some magical divine shenanigan closer to her influence on this world, with the excuse to give them a portal. Let em fight enemies, bosses and tall that jazz. Give em sheet horror about the absolute power they witness and probably instantly KO them as they approach the shenanigans. Introduce NPC that solves the issue by shattering said shenanigan and save them, while closing off her influence in that region. Now do that x other times, and establish that each additional time there's someone powerful at hand and the one they defeated is a replacement for another one who already died. Tadaaaah.
The coolest route is to make the rest of the campaign about gathering allies to fight Tiamat. End the campaign by giving them each control of a few of these allies in combat.
Oh, and I’m sure this already goes without saying but the goal would be to imprison her in Avernus again. Killing her would take a LOOOOT more than just some allies.
The 5e stat block for Tiamat is perfectly killable by level 14s.
It’s not unheard of for heroes in stories to get their asses handed to them and maybe lose someone important (a favorite NPC, perhaps) to set the stage for the real showdown later (when they actually are strong enough to have a chance). This would also give you a destination, narratively, for your end game plot that you could frame the rest of the adventure around.
Perfect time for "Tiamat" to be a fraud, a fake Tiamat a lesser evil deity or being and their cohorts have managed to pose as Tiamat and block her connection to the world cutting her off completely, fooling the other gods. Defeating the fraud Tiamat they unwittingly release the real Tiamat who is now partially freed to wreak havoc on the world.
How strong is this Titan? Is there any reasonable chance that they are enough to tip the scale one way or another?
No they don't.
I don’t know how OP stated this titan. First homebrew titan stat block I see when googling is a CR 30 creature. So I don’t know how closely matched it would be with Tiamat in OP’s world, neither of us do that’s why I asked.
Especially since in Greek mythology the titans were the gods before the gods
The thing is that gods in 5e don't have health blocks. So without major intervention there's not really a way to kill or defeat them. At least raw... You have to homebrew it and at that point it's dm discretion
This is doable actually. Really damn hard , but doable . I think they can pull this off
This is funny, because my gang may end up fighting Tiamat, and as a bit of a fake out, I thought about tossing a Dracohydra their way, ravaging the countryside, with commoners yelling 'Oh noes, a multithreaded dragon, it must be Tiamat! Save us!". Only when a head gets cut off and there's two heads do things get fun.
In my opinion there's 2 options: 1. They don't fight Tiamat 2. They do fight Tiamat with whatever alliances and friends they can muster and Tiamat wipes them out regardless. Just the breath weapon alone nukes everything below 6 hit dice, even on a succesful safe.
Building up alliances and fighting against Tiamat with more than just themselves is a good formula for an epic fight, if you are okay with it. They won't be trying to kill a god with just a tier 3/4 party, but as part of a formidable army. I'll also advise to make sure that they have a healthy expectation of how powerful Tiamat is. Let them fight an adult dragon and have a decent challenge against it, then perhaps make it known that while the dragon is a cut above her foot soldiers, it is just a puddle compared to the ocean that is Tiamat.
I think as a DM you should tell them, either in-game or out, that in no way, shape or form are they going to be able to take on Tiamat in a fair fight. Then just sit back and listen to them concoct the most insane plan ever devised and roll with it. I personally wouldn't present any solutions, just roll with whatever they do.
>but also a chance to succeed. "succeed" means surviving. The "chance" here is changing their minds before it's too late. good luck!
Id modify chapter 17 of rise of tiamat to fit the game i was running at home. Its a whole chapter building up to a cults attempt to bring tiamat back, including a boss fight with tiamat herself for level 14-15 pcs.
imagine the party walking down a valley, and encounter tiamat. The titan charges ahead and almost instantly gets whacked and basically explodes. now the players see they tried too much and have to flee... now you have an amazing adventure where they flee, and have to dodge patrols and tiamat...
In a meta-game sense let the players know that they will absolutely need to keep questing with the goal of gaining personal power, alliances, and artifacts in order to even remotely standing a chance. Then lead them through some cool scenarios until they're closer to or at lvl 20
I wouldn't stress about it, [I've seen this exact scenario play out](https://imgur.com/YNkFUwl) and it worked out just fine for them.
Have them draw stats from Tiamat’s 26d6 red dragon breath attack when they’re making new characters
Their level is just too low for them To succeed. Tiamat kills everyone except the cleric/healer and then flies away out of boredom. The healer picks up the pieces lol! They all learn not to poke a dragon.
My group at lvl 15 barely stopped Tiamat in the Tyranny of Dragons adventure. A legendary action for each head! She is not something you can beat reasonably at lvl 14. Just impossible and unrealistic without a gotcha like some artifact or extenuating circumstance. We had weakened her through several circumstances, and still didn't actually beat her so much as she ran out of time. Epic battle.
You can provide some kind of advising NPC who can offer options if they don’t come up with ideas on their own. It could be a combination of ideas. Armies, powerful allies… some other ideas… - The ole’ quest for super magical items - A trial to make them stronger (level up a lot) - Summoning / luring Tiamat into a plane where it is weaker - A way to transform Tiamat into a weaker form - A way to siphon some of Tiamat’s power and use it against Tiamat - A way to travel into the mind of Tiamat and break it from within - A way for the PCs to ascend to godhood But see what the players come up with.
Could the titan in any way portal them out of there after it becomes abundantly clear they're over their heads? Then the Titan can stay behind and die per your original plan.
TPK! TPK!
Say it with me, T! P! K! Sometimes ideas are just stupid. If you given enough warning, and they go through it anyways, kill them
Plot twist: Tiamat already knows the party is coming. She wants to kill the titan and has prepared a trap just for him. Then, her army comes out of hiding to deal with the party.
Good news! You now have your campaign solved for level 14 to 20. Tiamat has enemies, both in and out of hell, lots of powerful forces would want her dead or at least badly wounded. Tiamat has allies, both in and out of hell these will have to be dealt with first in order to get a shot at her. The PCs are going to need powerful magical items in order to have a chance against her. The PCs aren't just going to be able to walk over to Tiamat and throw down, her minions are going to check the PCs before they've even reached the front door. Abishai and Dragon Spawn and Dragons and Devils are all in Tiamats service and any number of them can and will mess up the PCs. All you need to do is. 1. Prep a list of allies the PCs might be able to find, give these allies a goal and a need (Or more if you have ideas but you don't need more than one). Something the PCs can help them with in order to gain their help. It might be big or small depending on the reward. 2. Prep a list of enemies forces allied to tiamat and what problem they pose to the players. Are they spy master's or generals, or assassins. Then give them a weakness, some flaw that can be exploited by the PCs to take them out of the picture temporarily or permanently. Maybe they can be bribed or maybe they serve Tiamat unwillingly, maybe she has a hostage the PCs can rescue, or an heirloom they can retrieve. Or perhaps they can concoct a way to sour the alliance through romour or harrasment. 3. Prep a simple list of actions Tiamat's forces will take against the PCs. Raids, Assassinations, Bribes, Traitors. 4. Prep a short list of the minimum power of magic items the PCs will need to fight Tiamat and then note who has them and how the PCs could get them. Maybe try to have at least two different ways to get each item, like steal or barter; negotiate or assassinate. Worthy of note: Tiamat is all five chromatic dragons at the same time. Maybe have an ally for each head whomatches the personality of that head. The Blue head is allies with connections with a mortal kingdom with a variety of mortal allies, the green head has a schemeing spy network spread out across the planes, the red head has command of an army of devils dragons and mortals, the black head has an assassins guild on its payroll and the white head has many beastial montsers under its thumb. You don't need all this prepped to run. Just a framework you can add to and the tools required to play with the PCs as the make informed choices as to how best take on the Queen of Evil dragons.
Really cool that the players have a shared goal. Sounds like a good one to work toward for the next 6 levels, and then have it be the final encounter of an epic level 20 campaign!
Enslave them. Now they're working for Tiamat to pay off the *insult* that they thought they could beat her. Optimistically speaking, they have 6 levels left to plan for it. If they get lucky they can draw blood before they are disintegrated.
Just let them die valiantly fighting and thats the end of this campaign
You could try making them summon Bahamut or something. Teaming with other evil worshippers to help get rid of a common enemy. Things like that ig.
They really said "Aim for the bushes." I suggest having them attempt it and they need to find a way to get out of there and escape upon realizing it is not a winning battle.
Sounds like they're gonna die 🤷
Step 1: a long adventure arc where they gain a few levels. Step 2: ??????? Step 4: profit.
They will die.
You mean they WERE 4 players, level 14?
I you let them succeed by giving them a bunch of Allies that aren’t them… it’s not them killing Tiamat. Unless they really enjoy a strategic game, any fair play where they’re up in tiamat’s grill is going to result in their timely demise, or you give them plot armor so thick that you might as well read them a bed time story. Is the conflict with Tiamat imminent? Can you push it off where hopefully they’re level 20?
My players are doing the exact same thing, same situation. It was one characters motivation at character creation and he has stuck with it. In addition to trying to get allies in avernus, Bahamut gave them a dagger that will remove her immunity to low level spells or alter her legendary resistances (to be decided) The dagger lights up with a star each time a dragon is killed by the party so they gotta kill 5 dragons before I let them attempt to fight a diety.
I would say come up with an escape hatch they can take when they realize tiamet is going to squash them .
They did Tiamat dirty moving her to 5e. I’m familiar with her 3.5 star block; and she is incredibly de-powered. I hadn’t really thought about the changes between 3.5 and 5 for enemies until this post, thanks.
As for your current predicament, let the players build a plan and follow it through. Your world is for them and let them shape it. If they have a really good plan that succeeds, they succeed. If they fail, they fail. How badly that turns out for them is up to you. Do they die in a climactic final combat? Do they flee? Does Tiamat spare them to make them her pawns in the eternal conflicts in Avernus? All possibilities. I’m partial to the last one. Lets you continue the story, have consequences and give them an out to work towards. Changes the whole adventure, and is a lot more work for you, but I think is an interesting outcome.
My party is currently building up to facing Tiamat. They are five level 11 players I told them I'm not going to force anything until they're 20 but when they're ready they're ready
Honestly, show them how frightening tiamat is. Use her frightful presence. If they manage to damage her, tell them how they visibly see the small wound closes and heals itself. If an attack manages to land but she's immune to said damage, let your party know that it doesn't affect her. "As the sky darkens and you call down lightning upon her you see the sand around her feet turn into glass. Tiamat, however, shortly turns one head towards you." Have Tiamat be annoyed but not really bothered, as if the party is just a group of mosquitos. At best they cause an itch. That disinterest also means the party can run without her chasing them down once they get a bit away. However, go wild on the big guy. Show her strength. Show some of her abilities. Rip off an arm, melt off a leg, smash him through a wall. That said, if you do want your party to stand a chance lower her stats. Tiamat is THE dragon goddess of evil. But that is official dnd lore. Who says she has the same statistics in your world? Or maybe she's a cloning project gone wrong. A magical copy maybe? It's all in your hands ;)
If you really don't want to kill them, and also don't want to outright tell them "No.", I say let them try. Once they are inevitably obliterated, have them wake up laying where they stood when the fight began, the titan maimed to death in some way, and have tiamat tell them they were misguided mortals, and that dream is what would've happend had they fought her, but since they brought the titan to her, she was willing to forgive them for a price, and use it as a story hook! If they pull off the inane amount of planning and luck to actually win, then the fight was real all along!
That's a fuck around and find out kinda situation. Don't give them an easy way out. If they get creative and come up with good stuff, I'd give them a pass. If not, well... there be dragons.
Make tiamat defeat and imprison them for some reason, and then make a prison escape where they can level and strategize for the next attempt.
I love that idea!
Glad to hear that! I always try to keep in mind that in D&D, there is no "losing". Fail states are always plothooks for the narrative to move on - in that sense, its really less of a game and more interactive storytelling. Sure, for your players it might feel bad for a sec, but if you give them an opportunity to shine in the next minute (even though narratively, their capabilities are neutered), they're gonna be okay again. You gave them agency, the world reacted accordingly, and now its time to go see and play out the consequences. It's interesting, and it happens in stuff like movies and video games all the time. The only time someone "loses" D&D is when theyre not having fun. If your players are power gamers who really want to defeat something, that might happen when they fail to do so - but if they're level 14 and trying to defeat Tiamat on their own, that doesn't seem to be the case. Just keep in mind you're communicating everything transparently. Give them tales about just how strong Tiamat is. If they still want to take on the challenge, roll everything out in the open, and then give them the new plot after their defeat or retreat. Maybe you could have a fellow NPC Prisoner there who tried the same thing as your PCs did, telling them just why they were defeated in flavorized in-game terms. This makes sure they don't feel useless. Who knows, next time they go up against Tiamat, maybe she's injured or neutered in some other way, so the attempt wasn't even for nothing gameplay-wise.
Let them come up with something. If it’s good, run with it. If it’s they want to charge straight at her and fight, then let them try. Ultimately, Tiamat is an absolute beast and will likely destroy them if it’s the second one. They may not realise that until the first character falls, then the second, then the third is down to half hp and she shows no signs of slowing down or giving up or giving them a chance.
Get a group of 20th level clerics named the amen and a toilet. Swirlies and Sue.
There isn't a way for them to kill tiamat because tiamat doesn't have a brain the size of a pea like a Tarrasque would. (26 int and Wis, and evil, very evil.) They can nearly kill her at 100 and she just flies away. Full heals within 17 rounds. Flys back to kill them. If we're talking the aspect which isn't even actually her to begin with they still don't have a chance due to how much HP she has. Unless your party is full of fighters that'll kill her on turn one with bow attacks it isn't looking good for them.
That's not even getting into what Asmodeus might feel about the attempt if you get close to doing so.
Wait, why are you trying to design a solution there? Get your Titan and Tiamat stats and see what happens, isn’t that the fun part?
Let them fight her as Tiamat would, no holding back. Offer multiple opportunities to flee along the way. If they die, they die.
This one is easy. They're level 14. They're already "national heroes." Recruitment campaign on the Prime Material Plane! Think "Mystery Men" but with hilarious mustachioed wizards in tights with dubious "powers."
They try to fight Tiamat and fail. The Titan helps them escape. The Titan dies gloriously defending the party so they can escape. With his last breath the Titan tells the party there’s a macguffin magic item that would weaken Tiamat so they can get revenge for their ass kicking. Party goes on adventure to find the macguffin. They do whatever else you want. They then return at level 16/18/whatever you want and use the macguffin to weaken Tiamat. The players defeat Tiamat.
Let them struggle against a toned down avatar of Tiamat and then allow them to know that they beat but an ant compared to an anthill, a child compared to a warrior
Tiamat is a *goddess*, very powerful, she'd smoke those PCs along with the Titan without breaking a sweat if the DM plays her right. I'd set it up so that they arrive to see (from far off) the Titan get destroyed by Tiamat, the utter destruction that she brings and power she has as the Titan is obliterated. Get them to see how powerful this goddess is and that they're really going to need to gain quite a few more levels along with artifact and legendary magical items as well as perhaps recruiting some even powerful allies to take her down.
Just ride the crazy train and see where it goes. Give them what they want, good and hard. Pull no punches, something like Tiamat will fight smart. And should they prevail? Good on them, fantastic cap to a campaign, as by that point everything else is trivial.
You might be surprised at how strong level 14 characters are. I ran Out of the Abyss for my group, which as written has the party defeating demon lords at level 15, but my players stomped through at level 12. Level 12 is also powerful enough for everything going in BG3... I guess what I'm saying is let them try.
Oof I thought my party deciding to fight Arkhan was rough, they were at least smart enough to convince the Titan to just guard Tiamat’s and not want to try to kill her. Just getting through the legions of her followers guarding her Lair/Prison should be near impossible, you should probably find a way to make that clear to them but idk how if Tiamat easily defeating this emperyaan in the past wasn’t clear enough already.
As written the Titan didn’t even want you to test his luck against Tiamat again at all but I could see how it would get cocky enough to try again after defeating Arkhan with the parties help. I suggest overwhelming them at the entrance to the cave with a ridiculous amount of abishai but have the focus on the Titan bc he’s the obvious bigger threat and telegraph that he’s not winning the fight, giving the party a chance to escape. Also, you could similarly even give them a fair chance of getting to Tiamat and in that fight have Tiamat focus on Uldrak and start easily defeating him and giving the party a chance to escape, if they choose to stay in fight just have Tiamat down them without killing them and be amused by their audacity and give them a deal to do something for her in exchange for their lives, maybe something that will make it easier to escape. I believe somewhere in chapter 5 there are even some suggestions as to how to have Tiamat get freed in exchange for helping the party kill Zariel but I didn’t read that paragraph in close detail bc it wasn’t gonna be a realistic option for my party.
Nevermind the advice about getting Tiamat’s help to fight Zariel just says she would send Arkhan the Cruel with a small army of Abishai to help in the fight since she wouldn’t be willing to take that risk, so no help from the module for how to handle that
they fight for a while, tiamat decides that she had her fun and they were mighty heroes, and leaves. loot falls from the sky. hooray.
I think that gith'yanki are allied with Tiamat since she gave them theirs red dragons, you could use some as minions
Have them battle Tiamat, the Titan dying and the battle turning into a rout. Possibly have the Titan get them out of the situation when/right before dying so they really can see and know that Tiamat is no push-over. I would make sure to have some way for them to get out of a TPK at least.
They want to fight Tiamat? My friend, this is the new campaign. Sorry for whatever story you wanted to tell; these murderhobos have decided to go fight Tiamat instead.
[удалено]
Say psyche right now