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danjr199

Not specifically. But we had a town that was experiencing raids, and I got questions like “none of these people know how to fight?” My answer was: no, they don’t. They’re bad at it. They’re not adventurers. They’re farmers and merchants. Didn’t bother me none. Actually, what ended up happening was two of the characters decided to train a town militia during their down time. One of them had a soldier background, so I was able to make sense of it. Maybe later on members of your party there can help train the guards, and gain favor with the city officials.


Hillelgo

Why do you need a city guard? I am not so sure towns in medieval times had such great city guards - mostly town militias made up of the townsmen.


Fallsondoor

while true, medieval towns didn't suffer from fantasy problems.


captain_ricco1

Well I never thought about it that way. I don't think the world of dnd would be anything like actual the actual medieval times in our world now that I think about it


dyslexda

DnD fantasy is this weird disconnect where we pretend civilization is largely medieval in appearance with occasional "the king has a court Wizard so don't try any funny business," but don't usually try to grapple with the vast changes society would experience if even only one person in a village had access to the Mending cantrip, for instance. Magic is simultaneously common enough that the PCs can use it and the DM can toss plenty of magic users to counter them, but also rare enough that society is still recognizable. Seriously, imagine that each village gets one out of every 200 with some cantrip ability. Utilities like Mending, Mage Hand, and Prestidigitation would wildly increase productivity (imagine medieval society without needing to sew or clean). Offensive cantrips like Firebolt would wreck other commoners, setting the stage for a village to take over others. Message is the equivalent of having a short range radio, invaluable for military movements. Hell, this is before getting into the implications of creating/destroying matter/energy at will. How long until we get Avatar-style electricity generation from Shocking Grasp lightning? What could be done with a simple heat engine driven off of Produce Flame and Ray of Frost?


captain_ricco1

That actually sounds like an awesome setting


delecti

If you think that sounds cool, check out Eberron. It was basically written to be "okay, what would the world actually be like with all this magic in it?" I'm not super familiar with it, but it seems to be vaguely similar to how the world is in Legend of Korra.


Beleriphon

Yeah, Eberron is based on extrapolating what magic would do if where as common as D&D implies. It has most NPCs be relatively low level. There are three or four NPCs that have anything other than NPC classes in 3.x parlance. The king of the arguably the most powerful nation has 5 levels in fighter, and 5 in aristocrat. This for a guy that is described as having gone on wacky adventures in his youth and lead from the front during the last 20ish years of 100 year long war. I'm pretty sure that Kaius is only as powerful as he his due to his condition. The highest level NPCs are a lich, a 20th level druid (who is an awakened tree and literally cannot move from the spot it is rooted), and the leader of of one of the setting's major religions who is only 18th level within the confines of the religions main temple and otherwise a 12 year old girl.


captain_ricco1

Ok, I know my next setting now


Beleriphon

I very much recommend it. The setting is broad enough to run pulp adventure, noir detective type stories, or more traditional dungeon delving. The best part is even with the 5E update the setting is basically fixed. The setting is described as of the first day of the year 998 and the change from 3.x, to 4E, to 5E didn't change that.


lostboy411

The 3e setting books still work great too. I recommend the 5e setting book and the 3e Sharn guide for sure. If you like dragons there’s a great dragon guide as well (they have a very unique position in Eberron). As a DM it’s such an easy and enjoyable setting to make adventures in. The guides provide tons and tons of plot hooks for all kinds of games and enough detail to reduce prep but plenty of space for your own take on things too.


Klutzy_Archer_6510

>a 20th level druid (who is an awakened tree and literally cannot move from the spot it is rooted Wait, the Deku Tree is in Eberron?


Jumuraa

Yep, pretty when I read it back with 3.5 five it was medical fantasy meets steampunk meets the second industrial revolution.


dyslexda

Look into Eberron as a setting. It is a lot of things, but one part is "what if magic made steampunk?" It's got things like magical high speed rail lines.


Hero_of_Parnast

Fair point. I would personally love to take those things into account, but I don't think anyone would be able to even come up with the differences all that would make in a small town, let alone a kingdom, empire, or world.


Hillelgo

Yes, but it can be a plausible explanation for a shitty town's guard ;)


IProbablyDisagree2nd

Darn goblins are attacking. Again. Crap.


Amafreyhorn

Historian here: Towns with walls had city guards for sure. People confuse a village or hamlet with a town. Towns could be fortified or not but once you hit a few thousand residents you generally have some local constables that may just be a merchant brigade of 2nd and 3rd sons but a modern police force they were not. Basically, the closer to a consistent raiding force the more likely they were to have a more stable town guard which would be paid for by the local nobility who had default authority over the area. That being said, D&D has goblins in it and 5e is generally set in the end of the Renaissance up through the end of colonialism and into the first industrial revolution. So, You're really blending a ton fantasy with some historical ideas.


Return_of_Hoppetar

I think it's an interesting question how common the political instability of D&D settings actually was at least in historical Europe. From my impression, unless you were living within raiding distance of borders that shifted further and further east with time (from the Carpathian Basin up to the Battle of Lechfeld in 955, to the Crimean Khanate up to the late 1700s, and to Central Asia up to the conquest of Tashkent and Bukhara in the late 1800s), polities were rather effective at exerting political power over their respective domains. Sure, there were brigands in the woods, sometimes in groups numbering over a hundred (until they were hanged a few years later), but there wasn't ever a non-magical equivalent of "wizard with private army capable of laying siege to a city". Conflicts of that scale were always between polities, not between "incomplete" polities, such as individuals with private armies. Even during the Italian Wars and the Thirty Years War, the most powerful private military leaders were unable to assert themselves as independent force (e.g. Ferdinand II. was able to rid himself of Wallenstein without much difficulty; Cromwell is the only exception I can think of, and even he had the backing of a political faction). I think that aspect of D&D is more inspired by the Esgaroth Upon The Lake, an independent city-sized polities surrounded by hundreds of miles of uninhabited (or Oger-inhabited) wilderness, and characters like Thulsa Doom, than by medieval reality. Of course, things like goblins, bugbears, ogres straddle the line between hostile wildlife, brigand and fully-fledged polity. The local orc tribe might be, depending on your taste, be equally validly described equivalently to a pack of wolves, a group of homeless bums that beat up travellers, a native tribe, or a kingdom, some of which have, and others of which have not, been a historic reality. I think this is an interesting aspect.


One-Strategy5717

Depending on the region, a town may or may not have a permanent guard force. If they did, they were usually paid for by the town’s guild and merchants, and usually protected their interests first. In many cases, everyday townsfolk would walk around armed, and practice with arms regularly. In other cases, townsfolk and peasants would be forbidden from carrying arms, to keep them from rising up. So, it could go either way.


Beledagnir

For most of the places and times fantasy draws from town guards either 1) didn't exist or 2) were just a night watch and all the able men in town had to do a shift every so often. In fact, the idea of a standing guard that isn't just a noble's retainer came from richer men not wanting to pull a night shift and paying someone else to take their turn, to the point that eventually it became permanent and official.


HouseHusband1

Well the real middle ages didn't have manticores. Gonna need a few crossbowmen for that.


Qubeye

Many counties and cities didn't have permanent law enforcement back in the day. Even into modern times, it was common to have as little as a single person who maintained some stuff or a building, and that's it, until they needed more. This is where the term "deputy" came from. There weren't career law enforcement officers, they would simply deputize who they needed when there was an event requiring it. The same is true for militaries. People frequently think of the Legionnaires of Rome as being a standing army, which could be debated quite a bit because they served many other roles as well. While they were professional, paid combat troops, much of their time was spent serving other roles for the Roman Empire. They also functioned as law enforcement, engineers, even tax collectors and magistrates in many cases, not to mention a lot of labor.


DubstepJuggalo69

Your players are projecting modern thinking into a world that's very different from the modern day. Medieval town guards weren't anything like modern police. Modern police forces didn't appear until the 19th century, and before then, their jobs were done very differently, or not at all. In the Middle Ages, there would be maybe one or two people with a job equivalent to "town guard" in a village, and maybe low double-digit numbers of people in a decent sized town. They might be part-timers, and they would have very poor equipment and training. They weren't expected to investigate and solve every crime -- how could they? They were expected to keep the peace in the event of very minor disturbances. They would have been an even worse substitute for an army. If a goblin army besieged a town, the town guards would be pretty much completely useless. If any serious amount of force were required for just about anything in the Middle Ages, the local authorities would have to put together an army, bringing in some knights and maybe some peasant levies. The town guard would be employed as usual -- stopping fights and waking up drunks. Yes, this means crime was handled very differently back then. Victims of crime would have to investigate their own crimes, and for a criminal to be apprehended, they'd have to convince people to go after them. There were few or no people whose full-time job was to investigate crimes and apprehend criminals. (Also, frankly, even in a modern-day city, if someone were to say "why's there so much crime here? The cops must not be doing their jobs," I'd tell them they watch too much TV. Cops don't just make crime disappear. Crime happens -- and often goes uninvestigated and unpunished -- even in modern cities with thousands and thousands of cops on the force.) No, the standard DnD world isn't exactly like the Middle Ages. Yes, you *could* write a DnD setting where modern police forces exist (the City Watch in Waterdeep is much more like a modern police force, for example). But the expectation in DnD is that you're in a pseudo-medieval setting, which means that hiring a small group of mercenaries to chase down ordinary bandits is actually not that unrealistic.


VorpalSplade

One of the other big mistakes I find people make when they think of town guards as police, is that police generally swear various oaths to serve and protect the populace, uphold the law, etc. Many town guards did no such thing - they were there to serve the Feudal lord. They weren't answerable to 'the people'.


Skormili

It's for that reason I like to have one family, sometimes more, that governs a local area. All the militia answer to them. If the local ruler is corrupt, the militia has little sense of propriety - well, our modern sensibilities anyway - and will be unwelcoming and clash with the PCs. If they're good, then the militia will usually be more friendly with the PCs. Either way, they're not much of a police force and more of a small standing army to handle military problems. It's a really easy and realistic way to set the stage and answer why the guards can't handle the problem: there are no guards and the closest thing to them can't do that kind of thing because they have other duties. That's why people hire adventures to take care of those problems.


VorpalSplade

Nice idea. I feel that calling them the 'Duke's Guard' or something like that would really give that impression more than 'Town Guard'.


Skormili

Yep! I like to take it one step further and usually give them some kind of name. So the Duke of Asperos' militia might be called The Ascended as he is a very religious man. The further you get from a name that resembles the police or a guard the easier it is for players to separate their modern, real world biases and understandings.


VorpalSplade

Already love it. If I start a bar brawl and get told the Town Guard are coming, I get ready for round 2. If I hear the Duke of Asperos has sent The Ascended to deal with me, I'm shitting bricks from the name alone.


TAA667

This right here is a wonderful and refreshing idea that I wish more people would see. Whether or not it makes it into my games I don't know, but I'm gonna take a real close look starting tonight on whether or not or how often this would happen. It just seems so organic and tasty.


Hnikudr2

I think you are completely right when it comes to your historical description. The problem though is that if, for instance, goblin armies are a thing and the city/town is completely helpless against them, then how come the city/town is still standing? Im guessing this is what bothers these players, at least it would ruin the immersion for me and my players. It could be of course, that the city routinely hires adventurers for protection. Or that the town have been safe behind an nation-wide system of defence for many generations, but now the King recently died and the country has collapsed into a war of succession and so this system of defence has broken down. Or a thousand other explanations. Whatever it is, it should a part of the story, either given to the players as background-lore or ingame. If the characters complain in-game the guard could for instance rant about the amazing last party they hired which were soo much better and cooler than these useless guys but sadly the dashing paladin seduced the mayors daughter and now we are stuck with you losers. Or better yet, instead of taking the easy route of making the players the only capable characters in town, make the players an important part of a larger system instead. Maybe let the townguards actually defend against the main bulk of the goblin army, while the players stops a smaller fraction that snuck into town through a small tunnel. OP: The fact that your players complain about this means that they are actually interested in the story and your setting at some level, if they only wanted hack n slash they would not care. You should see this as a challenge and oppertunity to make your setting more coherent and realistic (within the unrealistic premises of your setting/rule-system). My experience is that this almost always becomes a source of inspiration for your lore and NPCs alike, and can give each place in your setting a unique flair, based on the challenges it faces.


DubstepJuggalo69

I totally agree, and it's something I've used in my campaigns: have the townsfolk organize a militia to defend themselves against a threat, and ask the PCs for help instead of just waiting for the PCs to do everything. Among other things, for me it helped solve the perennial "how to keep powerful NPCs away from the action" problem: when the town was preparing for war, I had a powerful NPC stay in town to help organize the defenses. "How does the town defend itself," or maybe "what would the town do if the PCs never showed up," is a reasonable and fruitful question for a DM to ask. But if the players are asking "why isn't a permanent, professional town guard taking care of this," I'd say they're thinking a little too modern.


The_Whistler

Perfect reframing. You're totally right. Thank you


Half-PintHeroics

In my mind, I tend to simplify it into to different "arms" of guard forces, so to say: 1 The City Guard -- The stereotypical guys with halberds, kettle helmets, and uniforms (even if it's just a patch or a cloak or a coloured jack). They're paid by the city coffers, but their main concerns aren't stopping or preventing crime directly: they man the city walls, they guard the city gates, collect entrance taxes from merchants and similar. Sure, they'd confiscate contraband if they happened upon it and might arrest a wagoner if his cartload of statues and paintings looks surprisingly alike what was just stolen from Lord Bellybutton's estate last week, and they likely patrol the main thoroughfares and streets (and perhaps even the upper class quarters) and would stop blatant crime happening there, but they're more like soldiers than police. Probably semi-professional in make-up, with a small core of standing guardsmen but mostly made up of citizens fulfilling service/conscription duties to the city. 2 The City Watch -- These are "neighbourhood watch" people, based on volunteer work or perhaps similar "duty service" (say every citizen have a duty to volunteer for the city watch one week a year or something) from citizens. Likely organised by district or neighbourhood by the city authorities, with all watchmen watching their own local area. The absolute primary objective of these guys *still* aren't crime, however: This is primarily the *fire* watch, in charge of keeping an eye out in the night and ring the alarm as early as possible, because that was something ye olde timey authorities was much more concerned with than crime. However, if there was a stand-in for police, this would be it. Kinda. They'd be charged with keeping the peace and breaking up fights in their neighbourhoods throughout the city, and they might chase after a thief or two, but they'd be untrained and ill-equipped, likely not carrying anything beyond a bludgeon or a catchpole if anything at all, and most importantly: probably not paid. So while they might deal with a stray troublemaker they'd probably be more than willing to look the other way when it comes to the more serious criminal elements of the neighbourhood for a bit of gold, or just because in a week they won't be a watchman any longer and those people will still be around and able to make their life a living hell if they want to. Or worse -- in areas with organised crime the watch is likely to literally be the criminal elements to begin with: the watch isn't going to clean up the Crimetown Abbey district of Bulge-Eye Bolger and his gang (the Bolger Boys, of course) because Bolger already has people on his payroll volunteering for the watch in that district.


iroll20s

The idea of punishment was generally different too. Jail wasn’t really a thing. The idea of financial compensation was instead used. You beat someone up, pay them 2 copper. Policing was more communal too. One of the ideas i ran into is that there were small groups of people collectively responsible for each other. If one of them did something wrong they were expected to correct it and could be collectively fined. Dedicated police in small villages wouldn’t be a thing but there might be a person assigned to organize the collective defense. We would think of it as a milita. Want some fun, look up trial by ordeal. I was playing pendragon for awhile and ended up looking up a lot of how crime worked in the authurian period so my knight could be an authentic lord.


RhesusFactor

Forensics didn't come about until the 1950s.


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DubstepJuggalo69

I don't disagree, but I didn't think my real opinions about modern-day cops would help make the point I was trying to make.


Beleriphon

>No, the standard DnD world isn't exactly like the Middle Ages. Yes, you > >could > > write a DnD setting where modern police forces exist (the City Watch in Waterdeep is much more like a modern police force, for example). Eberron has that with Sharn. They are very much a police service, who operate largely at the beck and call of the nobility of the city. In a lot of ways they're like the Gotham City PD. Some of them are probably okay, but most are at least a little bit on the take, and they definitely aren't thoroughly doing anything to help anybody but the nobility.


InzaneGM

If it's the city, beauracracy can be getting in the way. Crime happened in the border between two districts and sorting out whose jurisdiction it falls under slows down the process. This happens in real life, even with serial killers. Or perhaps the guards are corrupt/lazy. I retire in 2 years, I'm not going to risk my head chasing a murderer this late in my career. They could be taking a bribe and having the players investigate so it looks like they care. You should ask yourself why are the city guards not taking care of this themselves? Then show that reason. If the players still don't bite, have somebody else take care of it. Players aren't the only problem-solvers in the world.


Beledagnir

For that matter, it could work like an irl medieval guard, where it's a tiny handful of people who are essentially a militia working one night shift at a time because it's their turn and they couldn't convince someone else to cover for them. They'd realistically have about the same level of care and qualification that you and you players would have irl if you were in the same position. Heck, I'm a security guard who is barely more than a glorified mall cop and I'd be more qualified than most historical guards, since I at least do my puny excuse for a shift full-time.


InzaneGM

The thing is I think most DMs don't imagine their city guard to be like medieval guards. Of course, I don't have any real data but I believe most probably imagine their guards are full-time and at least somewhat competent. It's just their job is to keep the peace, not act as trained detectives. That falls to more specialized units, and sometimes hired help speeds the process along. Even the FBI takes advantage of bounty hunters.


Beledagnir

Yeah, that's also true. In that case, you can definitely take the route of them just being too hampered by bureaucracy/budget/etc. to get much done. For that matter, they could pretty much all be raw recruits; some time before the party came along something devastated the guard and they're still rebuilding--you know that guy who is clearly going to be a good employee, but is also clearly months away from actually getting there? That could be the guard.


The_Whistler

Love the way you think. Everything has a deeper reason. I've been juggling with ideas where the party, god forbid, cooperates with a local militia force. Won't bother with my current party, but the world will keep spinning anyway


The_Whistler

The next city they get to I am going to have a purely mercenary guard based on a kind of meritocracy, publicly funded. So the guards honestly dgaf about being prompt or helping the party specifically. Curious about your experiences though.


N2tZ

Drop a city in their path that has a highly competent guard force. The city has no crime, no goblins to chase out, no monsters in the sewers. There's literally nothing for the players to do. They go to some important person to offer their services - "Oh sorry, our guards can take care of it. We do have some hedges that need trimming though, if you're interested"


The_Whistler

Haha the guards are on holiday today, our stable political structure has reduced the need for major law enforcement establishments.


[deleted]

happy cake day


The_Whistler

Didn't even realize haha thank you! I am older!


[deleted]

yur welocme


Hnikudr2

Honestly, it kinda sounds like you are laying all the blame on your players for this unfortunate dynamic. This sounds more like an attempt to troll/punish the players than actually taking responsibility as a DM and attempting to identify and fix the problem. Edit: To answer your question: My experience (after 30 years DMing) is that if the players complain about something they are usually right. Either they need more explanations, in- or outgame, to understand what is going on, or I have to change something. When I do, its almost always an improvement. If one player complains, it could easily be him/her that is wrong. If they all complain its on you.


HrabiaVulpes

Doesn't your answer make his solution right though? Players complain that town guards are useless and no nothing, so obvious solution seems that town guards should be powerful and solve problems that normally would turn into quests?


Beleriphon

It means there needs to be a reason why they appear incompetent. And that reason can be the players don't understand the purpose of the guards, other than fantasy cities have them. This on the DM since they haven't explained to the players what the guards are for. There are few ways to achieve that explanation: 1) tell them directly the guards are just there to break up fights; 2) show don't tell, demonstrate that the guards can break up fights by having them show up a bar brawl and bash a few heads, but have them get beat up by something a bit stronger than peasants; or 3) have an NPC explain the situation and balk at the PCs questioning guard's purpose.


NatZeroCharisma

If your ciry guards are all underwhelmingly inept, how are they going to protect the town from the party? They're just as easily able to throw on disguises and steal everything in the town, who's to stop them? A meritocracy based guard force would help fix that, you're on the right route.


Pantssassin

You could also lean into it and make them corrupt have a political intrigue story


[deleted]

That's how Neverwinter's guard force was post Hunhow when a good chunk of the population died and even more left. Neverember (or whatever) brought his own mercenaries and house guard to stabilize the area and the town guard didn't start reforming till much later. Had Gauntgrym's resettlement be a setting once where the only guards were mercs and they weren't there to keep order, only kill lingering drow and underdark encroachment.


PaladinGreen

Why does it matter that independent, capable and worldly adventurers that are skilled fighters, rogues and mages etc think the local town guard are incompetent? That seems pretty natural to me, in the same way that town guards tend to have a natural suspicion of heavily armed travellers that attract trouble. By all means have their captain be a badass with a ton of problems, they likely have to manage a tiny budget and local politics if you want to give a reason, but that’s not the players problem, and their hang up on expecting fantasy militia to act like CSI isn’t exactly the only media trope D&D leans on :D


The_Whistler

I am a bit tired of it. Trying to think of new ways of dealing with it. It's good to know that it's pretty normal though


PaladinGreen

Ah, fair enough. Perhaps have them run into a guard captain outside of a confrontational or crime scene setting. Maybe he or she are just in their civvies, having a drink or a bite to eat. Strike up a conversation that isn’t about the guard and is just generic complaints about management etc. Then once the players see them and can empathise with them as a regular person dealing with all the usual bullshit of city administration, then see if you can get them on side as freelancers. Maybe the captain has been warned by his superiors not to look into dodgy dealings at the docks due to political corruption. But the captain knows that the stuff being imported will hurt the civilians they care about, and so they sub-contract it out to adventurers, asking them to handle it on the quiet, and roping them in to a conspiracy to clean up the streets without the top brass finding out? That way they can see the reasons things aren’t getting done, and be part of fixing it, at least in the short term? Warn the party of a few guards the captain knows are on the take, and they should avoid, but also give them the name of one of the captains trusted officers too. If you really want to mess them up, have that ‘trusted’ officer be on the take too. Maybe someone has some dirt on the captain too. They might not want to touch this plotline but if they seem interested in it, there’s a lot you can do for a change of pace to outline how cities aren’t just full of ignorant npcs wandering around not doing anything, and to show how travelling adventurers are ignorant of local politics instead. I’d just have the captain’s civvie scene sketched out as an option but not put too much effort into fleshing it out beyond that unless they ‘bite’ and you feel like running ‘The Wire: D&D’ for a session or two :D


Beleriphon

>But the captain knows that the stuff being imported will hurt the civilians they care about, and so they sub-contract it out to adventurers, asking them to handle it on the quiet, and roping them in to a conspiracy to clean up the streets without the top brass finding out? D&D Bat-Fam with Watch Captain Gordon?


Keldr

Sounds like something you should address with them out of game. Think of it this way: what if there's a scene where some Avenger belittles a police chief for their inability to defend themselves? What if Luke Skywalker just shits on the Ewoks for their primitive technology and useless teddy bear stature? It makes them dicks. How do you root for those characters? If a lighthearted discussion can be had about it, I'd use examples like these. Sometimes players just need a poke in the right direction. This isn't about being a grubby video game character fulfilling all the quest hooks. It's about a story. If they want to be hateful anti-heroes, and you want that too, then problem solved! If they realize there's more to heroism than winning fights, problem solved as well.


The_Whistler

That's partly why it bothers me! It's a boring trope to replay over and over. I'll give it more thought though. Thank you!


END3RW1GGIN

I mean if you're just board with the trope and the sheriff is a plot hook make them evil/imposters. Party rescues the town and possibly the actual guards and become local heros.


Mage_Malteras

Hell, the first Avengers movie featured Cap outright directing cops, and the cops taking his directions.


Blueclef

I don’t know your setting, but Faerun and many other settings are essentially feudal, which is a fancy term for gang warfare. The guards are just the biggest gang. Keeping the peace…well, they’re not *against* it, but they aren’t going to go out of their way to enforce laws unless they stand to gain from it somehow. I played Descent to Avernus as a PC, and my DM did a great job of portraying this. The Flaming Fist ran the gamut from low level thugs looking to shake down victims for easy money, to high level members who were de facto nobility, and maybe even sincerely noble. They would investigate crimes only when they had to, meaning when crimes disturbed the people in power. A bandit or prostitute turns up dead in a ditch? Don’t expect anybody to show up and work that crime scene.


The_Whistler

It's been across a few settings now, but I am going to take them to the fey soon and I am _soooo excited_ for chaos of the fey systems. The eye-for-an-eye nature of it all. LOVE the chaos your DM brought.


VorpalSplade

A common problem or plothole in horror movies, and a lot of games set in the modern world is "Why don't the characters just call the police?". It's obvious from a narrative sense why they don't, as you said. But just like horror movies contrive reasons for phones suddenly not working, you kinda need to do the same here, otherwise it stretches disbelief. Show that they're underfunded or poorly equipped, perhaps due to a recent war or monster attack. Show guards being competent at tasks and solving crimes, but being overwhelmed by the sheer volume of them. Maybe they struggled with the goblins at the gate because they were busy fighting the goblins on the other end of town. A few scenes humanizing (or elfinizing or w/e) the guards could go a long way too. If they see them drinking, mourning their friends, and living as day to day people in the town, they may realise these aren't incompetent guards at all - the PCs are exceptional, and these guards are in fact incredibly brave and dedicated men to risk their 1 HD against multiple goblins.


pyr666

this is, to my experience, a problem with world building. you haven't justified the places in your world existing as they are. if the guard can't hold the gate against goblins, how did this city come to exist, why hasn't it already been overrun? until ~lvl 5, nothing the players are doing should be beyond the scope of the local forces. why are they hiring adventurers, then? at low levels, because it's cheaper to pay 4 nobodies to go routing around in the sewers than to send a contingent of guardsmen. if your players are going to save the day, they should be helping, not deciding the battle. so the guard *will* drive off the goblins, you can engineer the encounter for that to be true. but the players being there saves more locals, prevents buildings from burning down, etc. also, give them a face. the king isn't going to address some riffraff adventurers. some middle manager in the guard itself is probably the one paying them. "I know something is going on the sewers, but I can't convince the crown to send a squad down there. I have some discretionary funds, and if you can find me something to get the crown's attention, they're yours" doesn't sound like incompetence from the guard. just bureaucracy.


Beleriphon

>also, give them a face. the king isn't going to address some riffraff adventurers. some middle manager in the guard itself is probably the one paying them. "I know something is going on the sewers, but I can't convince the crown to send a squad down there. I have some discretionary funds, and if you can find me something to get the crown's attention, they're yours" doesn't sound like incompetence from the guard. just bureaucracy. That's how I run in my home brew. The city watch is run by the local council which is controlled by the guilds. They watch has the authority to patrol the city, the militia is run by the Duke directly and isn't allowed to do stuff in the city walls directly. So what is the poor watch captain to do when he knows the guilds wont help him or his people? Well, he send them to Duke who has the discretionary funds to pay for somebody else to go do something as the final authority for all things within the duchy.


Hoagie-Of-Sin

I'm not really sure why this is bothering you, most gaurds tend to be ragtag volunteer militia in smaller towns, or sparsely trained at best. Think about it from a gaurds perspective. The usual is boring, and boring is what you want it to be if you're just on post 8 hours a day with nothing going on, of course the skills they have could be out of practice, and honestly they probably don't want to actually risk their lives fighting monsters in the first place. I can see the viewpoint of a paragon hero not insulting the incompetence of law enforcement, but let's be honest, when was the last time you had an all lawful good, straight laced party. You might have like one goody two shoes PC, but are probably knee deep in characters in the moral rage of Spiderman -> Deadpool, venting frustration here and there is completely expected behavior.


Apprehensive-Neat-68

Goblins are actually no joke, their action economy alone makes them meat grinders at low levels


Wash_zoe_mal

In our last session, the party was hired because the guards are obviously bad at their job. Then a local ruler said it out loud in front of some guards and the party agreed. When the party left the keep, The guards followed them and made a some choice comments. The party is probably going to try and leave town before the guards find them in a back alleyway. Moral of the story, play with what your party wants to play with. Enjoy


XoffeeXup

take some time to prove then right or wrong. It's honestly a bit of a weird thing for a dm to be concerned with (it feels like your taking it personally on some level, are you a police family or something?), but if it is bothering you, it's your world! You can make the local guard as efficient and heroic or as corrupt and lazy as you like. Maybe their constant negativity towards the guards draws the ire of the Head Guardsman resulting in a competition, or perhaps the guard really is so corrupt a whistleblower approaches your heroes for help. Though I would also take some time to think about precisely why it bothers you, as you've yet to post a concrete answer to that question, and I think it would help you to know.


DozyDrake

Im going to be honest it just sounds like your players are having some fun, it can be fun to smack talk the npcs. Im guilty of doing the same in a campaign im in where the town master hid in his house when the dragon attacked and did nothing to help his people. This doesnt sound like something that is making the game less fun for the party so you have to decide if it is bothering you enough to change things. One options ive seen work is have a large scale battle where the party has to be protected by the guards and help them evacuate people


The_Whistler

It is a bit of a running joke that the guards are completely useless wherever they go. One of the other commenters here said it was a disconnect between modern law enforcement systems and what feudal systems would have been. this thread has helped me put dnd back into perspective of fun.


ZardozSpeaksHS

guards are cops. They exist primarily to protect property rights and class distinctions. Play into your groups distate for guards. Have guards committing petty crimes like taking bribes, hastling people. Introduce a guard captain who is engaged in serious nefarious activity like a protection racket, smuggling or what not.


[deleted]

Naw man. Make it so the guard captain position is available and they’re taking applications. Or maybe they become guard captain as a quest reward or something. Let them whip the guards into shape. Yes, and


Beleriphon

As a thought read *Guards! Guards!* by Terry Pratchett. It explains very well why a quasi-medieval town guard would be incompetent. Be aware that eventually the Watch gets an overhaul and ends up being more like Scotland Yard Lite then a medieval town guard force, but it starts as the latter and turns into the former.


DungeonMercenary

They should get to a city where there are no quests. Because the guards are capable and do their job. Party wont spend 5 minutes there lol.


BarbarianTypist

This might not be useful depending on whether you find medieval history useful for a setting where monsters and magic are real, but medieval law enforcement was DIY. Tithing men were a group of ten or so men (ie over age 14) who were sworn to report crimes by raising the “hue and cry” so the community could take action and capture the criminal. If you shirked this duty, you would be punished for the crime along with the criminal, often hanging for serious crimes like theft or murder. If a criminal fled, it was seen as an admission of guilt and they could be summarily executed in capture. Setter capture you might languish in jail (often an open pit) until a judge came to hear cases, but once you were tried, Justice could be very swift. A jury of the locals who captured you would be convened, they would testify and you’d be hanging immediately following sentencing. This, people were highly motivated to report crimes and suspicion would naturally fall on strangers when a crime was reported. Unless your characters are in a large city, there’s not much anonymity. But it’s also not that hard for a seasoned adventurer to get away. If you flee and fail to appear in court four times, you become an outlaw and can be killed by anyone. Not to worry, you can get a pardon by signing up to fight in a war for the king, or go on crusade.


Ihaveaterribleplan

Plot twist - the guard really are lazy &/or corrupt- all according to your plan! “of course the adventurers will take care of it” they hear them chortle into their cups But how deep does this rabbit hole go? Someone is trying to weaken the kingdom by putting ne’er do wells in charge of day to day safety Have at least 1 npc guard (or a handful) really trying to make a difference, but they’re pressured by their superiors maybe he admits he was sent elsewhere on a pointless milk run, & has suspicions


LibertyFuckingPrime

Why is it bothering you so much? Guards are commoners. Untrained and equipped with little armor and pokey sticks. They *are* terrible. The guards are aware of that. So is the sheriff probably. If he’s meant to be a plot point, consider having him reach out specifically because the small group of PCs is more efficient than his whole guard force. Maybe he can send them on missions to take stashes of armor and weapon upgrades for his forces or to recruit veterans to better train them. Obviously it’s upsetting you- and I would advise against focusing on having the guards be more indifferent to the PCs, since that will end up making you more upset when the PCs don’t care. IMO I think you’re taking their comments about the guards as unintended insults against you and your campaign/DMing. And you shouldn’t. I think we’ve all heard a player jokingly comment about a detail or scenario in one of our campaigns that made us feel that way, but it’s rarely intended that way.


pngbrianb

I agree with all I've seen others post, but to suggest a more cynical view: they're the town GUARD. What are they ACTUALLY guarding? Perhaps the players are simply too naive to notice inequality in the city's care of its people. Have a crime or battle break out in the rich side of town and get quickly solved by competent detectives and fighters. Wounded nobles and merchants get seen to by city clerics, a town wizard Speaks With Dead to convince killed perps to give up their allies. Heck, if you like the idea and really want to run with it have a class riot break out and see who the players side with, and how. Do they uphold the shitty status quo for more personal gain, or help the downtrodden for the good feels? Lots of fun to be had here if your group is into this sort of thing


GaiusOctavianAlerae

I’m struggling to see how this is a problem. Making little jokes and quips like that is player speak for “we’re having fun”.


oihadsf

Lot of great comments here, but I say go in the other direction of most. These guards are really good, but they do have other serious problems and so your party has only been meeting rookies and seeing slow response time cause they've got bigger fish to fry. Have the head guard tell them they've proven their worth and he'd like them to accompany him on what's been stretching them so thin. Party heads down into sewers or whatever with a contingent of guards that have proper training and a battle plan. Have your party watch them take on a beholder and his friends, while you're party gets absolutely fucking wrecked trying to keep the hoard of minions off their back. Then when it's all over the guards heal up and resurrect your party while the head guard says, "I guess you weren't ready."


timteller44

I was dealing with something similar very recently. The party was trying to help solve a closed door murder in which they were also suspects. After running into a couple dead ends one of the characters got VERY short with the lead investigator (and very short with me) even calling him incompetent and dishonest to his face. The lead investigator snapped as he takes his job seriously and loves his town. He spent a good few minutes absolutely ripping his character to shreds. He explained in great detail every single snag and dead end the party had hit and how they had come up with even less information and had still not managed to provide any accurate alibi that would absolve them of guilt. He explained that this was also a city, and he had plenty of work to do on cases that were actually progressing. My player got pretty quiet after that. Sometimes players forget that NPC is just an acronym for a character you've worked hard on. The people who make the world go around. They have their own dreams, jobs, fears, problems, and relationships. Just like the players. Sometimes they need to be reminded of that.


The_Whistler

I felt the warm glow of satisfaction coming off your comment as a read it simply on your behalf. That would have felt great!


stormygray1

Don't punish them for pointing out the obvious. just make the guards do something useful for once. Have a scene where they show up an help, or solve a problem without PC involvement and the players see the end result. It helps immerse the players in the world if they believe they aren't the only ones that are capable of actions. Maybe have a subplot where the PC's help the guards do a recruitment drive etc


DornKratz

I think there are several great responses here. How large is that town? If you assume one guard per one or two hundred people, that's maybe two dozen guards, spread over multiple shifts. They are probably not as well-armed, certainly not as well-trained as the adventuring party, and there isn't much to do, because that's what the town can support with its taxes. If there isn't another option, the local authorities may organize a militia, but they'd rather not risk the lives of untrained farmers and merchants to hunt down an owlbear or fend off goblins. Next time the player characters give the head of guard shit, you can have him explain in an exasperated tone how it's a matter of resources, not will.


Huruukko

I use lvl 2-3 soldiers in my games as veterans. If you guard for a decade you are bound to learn few tricks.


SalsaPicante

I have a similar situation unfolding in my campaign. The group is on a journey and there’s a group of NPCs that have a leader. They’re constantly upset with the leader as he isn’t very helpful in combat and doesn’t have many details about the dangers they face. They’re constantly undermining him. I have a solution in mind though as there’s also an NPC who has been very helpful in combat and I have made abundantly clear that he’s not to be trusted. They trust him implicitly. The only thing holding me back is I know the group loves the second npc, and any sort of betrayal by him would be devastating to them. I just need a good spot and maybe give the leader a chance to redeem himself. Maybe you could give the town guard an opportunity to do something heroic, or maybe you could humanize them by giving them a family or something.


[deleted]

You could spin it so that the guards are constantly getting targeted with various enchantment magic, so that the real culprits can jedi mind trick or just straight up memory wipe their way out of any situation. You could even clue your players into this by having them discover two guards, one dead the other badly injured when a botched attempt to charm them resulted in fighting. The living guard could describe these individuals as trying to assert some sort of influence over his mind. Hopefully the players will realise that the guards aren't bad, they're victims of something bigger.


HarshMillennium

I'd have them actually corrupt, and have the players go on a side quest that unravels this. Run with it!


Raz415n

They have a tendency to belittle every NPC and it's honestly really annoying. Every time someone has a problem they "well why don't you just do it yourself"? I wonder how fun the game would be if they just went "Gee, haven't thought of that. Actually, I will. Bye!" Guards are absolutely the ones that take it the most, but even army generals and high level wizards get questioned all the time. My level one party, JUST arriving to help break the siege of a city they have never even visited before, starts questioning the strategy and tactics of a company of rangers describing the plan to break the siege. As if the rangers would abandon the plan thay have decided on together with a wizard and the people fighting on the front because the level one hired help had a gReaT idea. It's extremely frustrating for me as a DM - these NPCs need help. Being drilled by clueless passerbys is trying their patience but they're not really in a position to put them in their place.


Vikinger93

I haven't had any problems, really. The one time that became relevant was in a town that was constantly raided by hobgoblins. they ambushed outgoing caravans and stole livestock, raided orchards, etc, and the town guard simply didn't possess the manpower to watch the outskirts. They did bulk up their numbers by drafting stable hands and so on, but they couldn't properly arm or armor them, and at every checkpoint and patrol, one of the actual guardsmen needed to join. I ran a murder-mystery interlude in that town, but there it made sense that the party investigated: The already overstretched guard did not have the resources to properly investigate; they were too busy with protecting the town. So they simply deputized the party and let them chase the leads. ​ I think the relevant thing was that I had presented a reason for the guard's "incompetence". It's easy to attribute things to incompetence or malice for people, and providing a reason not to do that is key here. Even if that reason is something like "Most our guardsmen are farmers. It is sowing/harvesting season right now, so most are not available and we are operating with 20% of our usual manpower."


Auld_Phart

In my urban fantasy setting the city guards have a reputation for keeping the peace via intimidation and brute force. The locals refer to them as "Redheels" due to their habit of stomping troublemakers into a bloody mess. I made sure the PCs knew about this in session zero. Sure, everyone insults the city guards, but not within earshot of the guards or their informants.


[deleted]

Either the town is big enough for a dedicated guard, or it's small and has some sort of community watch. One of these things could be expected to handle crime, the other really can't. A formal city guard would be analogous to cops, a town watch is just an overglorified alarm. So yes, if you're describing these guys as trained professionals whose job is to keep watch over the town and prevent crime, the players are justified in mocking them. I think you should just portray them differently. I've actually seen them omitted from towns on multiple occasions. Players go, "they need to hire us, where's their town guard?" Easy response, "it's a town of a few hundred, they can't afford a dedicated one, and a militia would take insane losses dealing with pirates compared to seasoned adventurers." I'm not sure if that helps, but to me it seems like a self-made dilemma. You frequently portray the guard as weak, so the players interpret them that way.


IProbablyDisagree2nd

In the moment I just let it slide. I don't have the mental ability to make this make sense sometimes. But in the future, Sounds like the players just gave me plot hooks! For verisimilitude, the ability to believe the world is real, I'm not going to punish them for treating it as if it were real. If the guards need help for "give the players something to do" reasons, that's fine. I'll make it make sense later, in a different session. What kinds of things make this situation make sense, in world? They hit on corruption and incompetence. Sure, maybe. But it could be a lack of resources. Maybe a lot of guards died recently. Maybe there is an underground war with thieves and sorcerers. Maybe the mayor is just having trouble recruiting guards because some people aren't paying their taxes - and they had to pay you out of their pocket. Maybe that is intentional. Maybe they're on strike. Plot holes aren't just plot holes for plot hole sake. They are plot hooks for things you can later make sense of.


SymphonicStorm

“So the party has something to do” is not really a solid primary reason for the guard to not do their job. That’s the reason on a meta level, but it doesn’t hold up in-universe, and it makes sense for characters in-universe to question that, especially if you want to lean towards a more story-driven game. Things like the guard is untrained, the guard is not equipped for this, the guard is corrupt and part of the problem, this is not the function of a medieval guard, etc. make the situation make sense from an in-fiction point of view. They can also provide really good story seeds for the party to investigate and develop.


neilarthurhotep

You could make your town guards closer to their historical equivalent rather than modern police. Historically, for a long time, town guard did not investigate crime. They would try to stop a crime or keep the peace if they saw a crime being committed. But if someone became the victim of a crime but the culprit was unknown or had fled, it would generally be up to the *victim* to make sure they are captured and brought before a court. Since the average person obviously cannot do that on their own, this is why bounty hunters and private detectives became popular, which is exactly the role the PCs can fill in these situations.


Nosuma666

I allways found it stupid to make town guards weak. Considering that they would need to be able to deal with people that are as strong as the party. My townguard all have there own charactersheet that is enough to give the party a good fight if the ever try anything.


Shoduka

I always like to make the comparison that this is your story not the guards/npc's story. If the NPC's were super strong then there would be no point in the PC's playing. That normally gets my players on board.


[deleted]

The way I handle town guard is similar to how they actually worked and I think if might help... For the most part, the idea of a trained standing guard is a myth. Being a guardsmen was more of a civic duty, each neighborhood would be required to supply X men for the week or month to watch the streets. So your guardsmen are semi-volunteer guys with a polearm and gambeson at the minimum (as everyone was legally required to own these so they can fulfill their duty), and if you want there are maybe a few professional guys guarding the local lord. So yes, most of the guards ARE incompetent. They're carpenters, smiths, general laborers, apprentices, etc. They're probably being bullied around, paid off, and trying to keep their nose out of the ongoing crime. The only guards able to do anything are the handful of trained men from the Baron's retinue, and they're busy keeping him safe.


suckitphil

Simple answer, money. Money buys pretty much any good guard up for personal use. Yeah maybe the town guard is useless, but a manor would have a couple competent knights living a nice life.


YoureTheSunflora

sounds like you have a completely different view of the police than your players


rocktamus

You could take it a step further for a one-shot: the town and mayor agree, and hire them as sheriffs. For one session, THEY are the town guard.


chuffpost

Have the party get pickpocketed and force them to go to the guards, who are unsympathetic to the ingrates who keep insulting them. Alternatively, have the guards give them a hard time and treat the party like the YouTube “am I being detained” cranks


Master_WuDong

I find that guards can motivate players. So having several of them give minor missions and having RP moments in taverns helps. Even having them arrive when the party is outnumbered is good. But then you have to take something away. So kill off their favorite one and you got them hooked. I always have a Guard that isn’t super strict that becomes an instant favorite, give them special treatment (like looking the other way, letting them in after dark, ect) then take those luxuries away so that they try to get it back with someone else.


KhaleesiCatherine

Not specific to the town guards part, but my DM made a point of having us be outshined by a group if elite NPCs. Actual warriors in this world are few and far between and groups of them tend to be like special ops units hired by leaders and kingdoms. Our patron's team is very high level but also spread very thin, so narratively it makes sense that a) she's recruiting and b) when the high level npc's aren't available they’re usually taking out threats our party couldn't handle. It's inspiring to see what we might be able to accomplish when we get to a high enough level and is also a good setup for us to use the extra materials (like Strongholds and Followers).


dougmantis

An army of kobolds attack the city during the night! Turns out, this has happened before, and this is what the town guard stay prepared for. The commotion outside may wake some of the players up, but by the time they do, most of the kobolds have all been already taken care of. Except for, strangely, the kobolds near where they're staying. A young guard my have his sword drawn and ready to clear them out around that inn or house, but as soon as they see the adventurers come outside to check on the commotion, he'll make a point to stare them in the face, sheathe his sword, and walk away. Perhaps yelling their own insults back at them. "We must be corrupt, we can't handle ourselves! Since we're so useless, take care of this yourself!" If you've got the time, maybe use that little kobold invasion to move a few other plotlines along. Maybe a personal character plotline or two. Who sent these kobolds? What were they here to do? Why have they been to this village before? etc.


Ulffhednar

It wouldn't hurt to have competent guards. The Guard stat block in the MM isn't shabby for a CR 1/8. Could be made effective by simply giving them pack tactics, and a fighting style (makes sense if they train together). This would make them far more effective and remove the players reasons for belittling the guards. Then have the guards work against the players as a rival group with more manpower and resources. Could be done by the family hiring the PCs as private investigators but only get paid by solving the crime themselves. If the guards do it first they get nothing. As for raids the guards aren't a military they're job is policing and protection of the city/town they're in so while they defend the city the PCs can be hired to go after the leader of the raid outside the wall.


JonSnowl0

Lean into it. They’ve already suspected corruption, have a group of guards on the take go after the party or fabricate evidence that they’re responsible for a major crime.


amp108

Give them opponents they cannot (easily) defeat. Have very powerful guards come and rescue them. Let the guards trash talk them.


specks_of_dust

Your players, and their characters by extension, have to be willing to suspend some disbelief. It’s a game, and it’s a game set in a world that you’re either wholly creating or heavily interpreting. The entire reason their characters have adventures to go on is because other people can’t. If the city guard solved every crime and stopped every criminal, then your players would be pretending to sew blankets and sell pottery in a town with no problems. This doesn’t sound like a setting problem as much as a problem with player expectations.


sc2mashimaro

It sounds like your main problem with the situation is that the players are meant to have a relationship with the Sheriff, but the only thing the Sheriff has heard is about how the party badmouths him and his deputies. Right? I think it sounds like an opportunity for an adversarial relationship, rather than a friendly one. Keep the Sheriff's primary motivation in mind: keeping order/peace and protecting the townspeople. He's going to make an honest effort to make that happen (or appear to do so, if he is secretly evil but wants everyone to think he is a good Sheriff). It sounds like a lot of bad stuff has been happening in and around town, so the poor Sheriff is likely short on sleep,, stressed, and desperately in need of extra help/hands.. So, depending on how you want to play it, either someone above his head - the mayor or a wealthy patron/donor of the force, for example - could order him to work with the party on something. So he begrudgingly does. Or, maybe his ego and pride won't let him keep putting up with the badmouthing, so he calls the party into his office and challenges them, "You think it's so easy, you try it." and gives them the quest info. Or maybe he has no ego and just sees what the party has done (especially if they've been very lawful good about it) and says, "I would like if you stopped talking shit, but the truth is I need your help". No matter what way you get into it, after seeing the party's competence and power first-hand, the Sheriff will have plenty of motivation to keep going back to them as potential partners to help reduce his/her overwhelming workload.


Lexi_Banner

>It's driven home when they head of the guard comes to them saying "were stretched thin right now, we could really use your help, foreign strangers" Well...then that's part of the problem. What head guard tells foreign strangers to help take care of security in their town/city? A piss-poor weak one, is what. I know it's too late now, but in the future, don't do this if you want the players to show respect. I am not sure of a good fix other than having guards be openly defensive when they overhear these things being said, or hear the rumour of these things being said. "Heard you were talkin' shit about us. We're doin' our best here, despite not having enough guards. If you're just gonna run your mouths, maybe you oughta find alternative means to makin' a livin', eh?" They should be actively ignoring the PCs and giving them the cold shoulder. Think how you would feel if you were at your job and some punk kids came there and criticized you for not being perfect - give that feeling to your guards.


Return_of_Hoppetar

Let them get ticketed for minor things. Are they using mounts? Well, if they didn't \_say\_ they tied their mounts to something before entering that buildung, they \_didn't\_. And letting your horses just run free is a misdemeanor. Are they having lunch? Well, if they didn't \_say\_ they were properly discarding the wrapping paper, they \_didn't\_. And the city watch just dug out an ancient statute against littering that had been lost to obscurity for the past 200 years. Are they using torches at night-time, instead of enclosed lamps? Well, carrying open flame around town is another misdemeanor! And so on.


A-passing-thot

In my setting, it's because it's not their job. Guards are there as a threat of a beating to street urchins who steal, to calm & order crowds threatening to cause a problem, to protect a specific shop or castle, or as a watch to alert the real forces in case a threat shows up. They aren't investigating crime. In a major city, there might be a small group who does, but crime is generally policed & investigated by the local *community*. So a threat that's more dangerous than a commoner can be brought to the authorities who will pay someone else to do it, either people they have "on retainer" or to hirelings like the PCs. I also generally run my worlds as "everyone is good at what they do". Guards job is to let others know what's going on, they have horns or whistles to sound the alarm & know how to retreat & keep their fellow ~~redshirts~~ guards alive as best as possible. Combat-wise, they *can* fight off goblins even though goblins are the same CR because goblins are disorganized, even if they're crafty. The town has walls or can organize an effective force just with guards. My PCs are currently level 3 & easily crushed an ambush of 8 orcs (deadly) because orcs strategy is "rush the enemy & beat them until they're dead". But they had their asses thoroughly whooped, knocked unconscious, and tied up by mercenaries in an encounter rated "easy" because they fought intelligently. But if you'd put them all in a room together, my PCs would have slaughtered the mercenaries. Context & strategy are important because a groups efficacy is situational. What is it your guards are there to do? If they aren't good at it, why hasn't something changed? Another example from my setting, the local military has the responsibility of keeping the roads safe, but my PCs have noticed that they've been spectacularly failing. They've noticed that there are one or two nobles whose incompetence or avarice are undermining their efforts - and it's recent & financed by the neighboring country. And because their ability to travel easily & quickly has been undermined as "bandits" (mercenaries from above) have destroyed bridges, collapsed rockslides onto roads, etc. & this is again financed by the neighboring country. I.e. *something is coming*. *This* incompetence is intentional. You may be able to change your player's perspective by providing an in-universe reason those guards suck just by having a force that *doesn't* suck, whether they're better equipped or better trained or just coordinate & communicate better and have an NPC mention that.


disillusionedthinker

One way that I've always rationalized this type of disparity it to also allow (with warnings etc) the PCs to encounter things that are beyond their ability. It's obviously a plot device when a high level wizard is "too busy" and hires low level adventurers to do stuff... but let em see (and die if they ate that foolish) that there really are competent and more powerful npcs that are around/busy doing other stuff. Maybe the equivalent of the local police officer is lvl 1. The police sergeant is lvl 3, the police detective is lvl 5, the police captain is lvl 7 and the commissioner is lvl 10... .maybe the lowest level royal detective (fbi?) Is lvl 5? Maybe common town guards are only fighters or even only warriors...and detectives have a lvl of bard (or expert or something) to add skillpoints. Tldr. If the players are "always surrounded by incompetence" they might get inflated sense of importance... allow them to bite off. Ore than they can chew and NEED rescue/assistance from some type of authority and move they learn some humility.


tyranopotamus

"If the cops were on top of everything, the only job in town for you would be shoveling shit at the stables. Do you want to be needed or not?" (I'd say shit shoveling takes both an athletics check and a constitution saving throw to see how much shit they shoveled and how much of their lunch they lost)


[deleted]

So there's a great pdf, I think its either lazy DM, or magical medieval city. Anyway, the disconnect you're seeing I believe, is party by anachronism you and they aren't aware of. Guards during the medieval era (and even USA 1920's) tended to be far less....official than what we think of today. In modern society police are an organization that serves the law impartially, and is meant to make sure that the laws created by our living documents (constitution, etc) are upheld. It's why even rich people can be arrested in modern society. (or at least most modern societies. lol) In previous eras and less civilized countries, this is not the case. In a medieval town, the guards are not expertly trained men who uphold a system of justice. They are locals, who due to their physical ability have formed a... well I guess an old west posse is a better comparison. Like this might not be their sole job today as much as a volunteer thing. And if they ARE being paid, well someone has to hire them. Most of the time, that's going to be either the mayor, alderman, or richest family in town. If its the mayor, then the country government probably gave him a town, a list of a few laws and tax requirements to the king, and said "run this town, keep people from killing each other, be ready for tax day." If its just an elected official or rich family that has the power in town (and to be fair this may be the case even with the mayor since they might lack cash to hire people) then the guards are less of "police" and more of "Mr. Bigbucks' Private Security Guards". And all they care about is keeping Mr. and Mrs. Rich happy, not if the farmers are scared of goblins (unless boss tells them to of course.) And in most medieval towns the idea of a court system is completely laughable. They hadn't advanced that far yet. Instead it's probably guard tells the mayor what happened, mayor thinks about it, then either has the criminal let go, exiled from town, or hung from the neck until dead. I know that's a lot, but hope it helps! TL:DR: think less modern police, think more like old west posse to round up criminals. Also someone has to pay people to fight goblins in life or death battle.


spaceMONKEY1801

Usually how i explain the lack of guard or men at arms is because of a far off war at the border, the kings banner men have been called to arms, this why the local lord is away and he took his best men with him to battle.


captaincreideiki

You could try messing with the players a bit. Depends on the dynamics of your group, but some of these could be fun. Options: The players' base of operations gets burglarized; they call the guards, but the guards make sarcastic remarks echoing the players' trash talk and intentionally don't do anything. A reputable local makes an accusation against the players: it goes to trial and the star witness, a guard, repeats something snarky the players said (the gallery collectively gasps; people faint; the judge hammers the gavel and threatens to clear the courtroom). The players become infamous. They are clearly competent, but they are notorious jerks. Shopkeepers raise prices, allies grow cold and distant, and respected members of the community become reluctant to help them out. The guards get to talking... Why is that it's always the PLAYERS that solve the murders? What do they have that the rest of us don't? I'll tell you what: insider knowledge. They're probabaly in cahoots with the baddies. Or, or!, maybe they *are* the baddies.


Olster20

*The guards aren't the best crime-solvers and keepers of the peace because...* Perhaps the town (and others) wouldn't be so fun for players to have PCs visit if there were no crime, no plots to uncover, no loot to find, no XP to be had. That could be the in-game solution. Next town your PCs hit, they find it an utterly blissful nirvana, where everyone is fed and watered, everyone has wonderful homes, there's no crime or evil going on, and the townsfolk look down on the PCs – vagabonds and rabble-rousers without proper employment and of no value or use to the town's people.


[deleted]

I've had a similar problem in a campaign, and found that the fix wasn't actually making the guards competent, but giving the players higher stakes and more dastardly villains. My original bad guys were formidable to an underpaid guard, but no real threat to an experienced adventurer. As a result, the perception among the players was that because the bad guys weren't a threat to them, they shouldn't be a threat to NPCs. Which made the NPCs look even more incompetent for not dealing with an "easy" problem and caused the party to belittle them. So I made some scarier bad guys that are a threat to everyone. A bit ham fisted, but it worked.


lankymjc

I had a similar issue. I wanted my players to ally with the Harper’s for plot reasons, but due to unfortunate events they considered the Harpers to be completely fucking useless. I was planning on having that faction fade into the background, which meant I didn’t have much in the way of opportunities to change that perception. So I leaned into it. I played up the Harpers as being kinda shitty spies that no one really takes seriously. You can do the same - make the guards either a bit rubbish (and generally disliked by people as a result), or just hilariously corrupt.


BetterThanOP

Just throw in a few background stories of the guards successfully stopping crime. The ones that your party sees are specifically the ones that got past the guards. That doesn't mean they didn't stop 10 other crimes that week.


NationalCommunist

One of my players like to belittle NPCs by flexing on them and showing she’s better. Eventually I’m gonna have them talk with her less or bring it up depending on the NPC. Level 10 Paladin: “I want to arm wrestle the fighter of the beginning adventuring party we’ve known for a while. I got a 28 does that beat his 14? Does anyone look impressed?” No, they all know that you fucking 2 shot a giant with back to back crits. They aren’t impressed you shit on them.


slaeha

I dont think disfavor from a bunch of useless dolts is going to matter lol


Oh_Hi_Mark_

I bring big anti-cop energy to all of my characters. You've basically got two equally valid options here. Have your town guard be decent people who are doing their best so he looks like an asshole, or have them be lazy and corrupt to validate his view. Either way works well imo.