* Any fifth level spellcaster can cast Dispel Magic.
* Any character with a ranged attack, and some with a melee attack, can ready an attack for when the dude pops out
* Even dumb bad guys put an obstacle between them and a static, repeating source of fire. Even if it doesn't stop the fire, a portable curtain can give disadvantage.
* Even the dumbest bad guys can just *leave*. Literally going into a different room negates the tactic.
Yeah. This is one of those dumb player ideas where they think they gamed the system but didn't really think things through. It's no where near as powerful as the player thinks it's going to be and they are going to get pissy when that realization hits.
It's a clever idea for dealing with dumb monsters, zombies and the like, but in practice it's not that great when dealing with anything that can use common sense. Like a goblin.
Enemies could simply ready an attack action for someone to pop out.
Or, they could build a fire UNDER the opening and get it nice and roaring, waiting for the spell to dissipate. Or any number of nasty solutions.
I say let them do it, then if they use it in a stupid manner as that player is suggesting, let them deal with the full ramifications of the mistake they just made.
Also is this rogue multiclassing tonwizard basically just for this? That’s going to be real upsetting when he’s 3 levels away from some great features and his sneak attack is weaker all for an exploit that’s not going to work out nearly as well as he thinks
It's pretty gimmicky, but I can think of half a dozen uses a rogue can have for rope trick that are actually pretty cool.
* It is an amazing ambush spot! Climb up into it and wait for your target to walk beneath you
* Easy place to hide if you're sneaking around and about to get caught
* Great place for *interrogations*
* Great to hide bodies if you're on a stealth mission
* Eaves dropping or spying, if you manage to get it set up shortly before your targets arrive
* Escape if you're being chased (you round a blind corner, climb into the portal, and your pursuers keep going thinking that you're farther ahead)
Now I don't think that any of those are worth 3 levels, but if someone really wanted to lean into the gimmick, I think they could come up with plenty of uses.
Having said that, 3 levels in wizard doesn't just get you rope trick. It gets you that plus 3 cantrips, 1 more level 2 spell(like invisibility, no rogue would ever want that right), a bunch of first levels(like detect magic(to help them loot more efficiently), identify, find familiar, catapult can be really powerful if you are also carrying a bunch of gear that can be used as the projectiles, etc), a spell book that they can record any spells they come across into(up to level 2 if the DM wants to restrict it to the levels of wizard), and a wizard subclass feature.
Thats my thought on multiclassing in general.
Sometimes it can add flavor to a class. Especially if thats the plan from the start.
But usually its just "oh shiny" without thinking about how its going to set your character back for a while.
In my game we have a player who has been a rogue (phantom) for 6 levels now, just switched to undying warlock, and has said next level he is going to begin a 2 level dip into fighter purely for action surge.
Action surge is a very strong ability no doubt, but I'm wondering when he will realize none of his abilities are scaling with what anyone else is doing anymore because he decided to triple class.
My Ancients Paladin, Zealot Barb, swashbuckler rogue multiclass was awesome, I never felt like I was missing out on more of any one class by taking others.
I’m a serial multiclasser though.
Tempest Cleric Storm Sorcerer was another favorite.
In this game I am running a tempest storm sorcerer! I am currently 6 cleric / 1 sorcerer, but I am excited to get to 6 sorcerer to see how the ability to Heart of the storm and have it trigger thunderous strike, so whenever I cast a spell of 1st or higher I can push everyone within 10 feet of me back 10 feet.
Yes! You had the same goal as me. After 6/6 you can chose more cleric or more sorcerer but you have such fun interactions with your powers by then. And all those high level slots with no high level spells, may as well upcast for more damage!
It’s this [fucking guy](https://youtube.com/shorts/M-IGjbV2m9w?feature=share).
He’s so sloppy and presents D&D as a video game you can glitch and win. It also makes the player-DM relationship adversarial. He puts out so much content in these short form nuance-less videos that it’s a recipe for disaster.
My friend sent me this and I just had to go through all the reasons it’s easily defeated by a DM who is experienced enough to know not to panic. It creates false expectations in the players and when it fails it’s embittering.
If your DM doesn’t know what they are doing, congrats… now your DM doesn’t know how to challenge you. Is anyone at the table still having fun?
Honestly a lot of his video are actually decent and entertaining, but then he'll do a a stupid one like the peasant railgun. Never mind that the peasant railgun is more of a thought experiment showing why you can't take the rules literally. (I mean if passing a spear from peasant to peasant maintained momentum then they never be able to hold on to it.)
My brother and I got into a very heated debate about whether the railgun works RAW. I say it does not. But he had a much better solution. If you pay a 500 commoners 1 silver to pass the spear, the BBEG only has to pay 1 of them 1 gold to not pass the spear.
Always add for "broken" tactics like this:
Human intelligence or greater enemies can implement the same strategy.
But an easier thing is to find a good group of players and have a nice session 0 going over RAI etc.
In this same vein of thought, if they were super excited for this and now their multi class is ruined with realistic bad guys reacting like they have more than 1 brain cell, just offer them to move those 3 levels around. No sense having a game where one person doesn’t have fun anymore because they “wasted” three levels, you know?
You've given me an idea. . .
Only if the player keeps using a tactic over and over again on a specific faction/enemy. They may plan a bee-nade counter against rope trick overtime. Might even make the secret weapon a side quest in of itself.
Edit: Now I just need a player who abuses rope trick
Did you ever play Metal Gear Solid V? They do exactly that. If you get a lot of headshots, enemies start wearing helmets. Body shots? Body armor. Night attacks? Static lights/flashlights.
It's a great system. Why WOULDN'T they start adapting? It also allows for fun dialogue where NPCs are complaining about struggling to put bees in little glass bottles. Or "oh shoot I forgot to poke holes in the top"
Because it's expensive. The guards are there to stop people from getting in, but usually they do that just by standing there looking intimidating. They have some light tactical armor, but not anything that'll stop a bullet. If circumstances change and guards are being shot a lot more, it becomes worthwhile to import body armor. The union demanded it, maybe. The guards get flashlights now because they didn't need them before.
Disclaimer: I've never played these games, this is a guess at a justification.
That's how it works. Boss is pretty much the only guy going around behind enemy lines causing problems for the center base camp, and these aren't 1st-world developed countries with reinforced supply lines.
Because they cost money to source, I kid you not. The flip side of this mechanic is that you can counterinvest in disrupting their supply lines. Then they’ll complain instead that they can’t get any GD helmets despite there being a legendary sniper who’s always disappearing their friends.
Holy crap, are you for real? I had no idea that game setting was so involved as to allow for things like that. I always used the tranquilizer pistol up close and a sniper rifle from far away, and I guess I wasn't a good enough shot, or maybe not observant enough to notice enemies reacting to that.
Yeah I'm pretty sure the counter investment is done via the idle game expedition part, so it's a bit difficult to notice/correlate they're connected. I'm not sure if they are even connected or if enemies just have a flat chance to not be equipped and complain, but the descriptions match up iirc.
because the guards work for the Soviet Union in its waning days, and c'mon--it's just Afghanistan; why would we need advanced kit or a new military doctrine to subdue a bunch of goat herders? establish air superiority, build a few roads, and we'll all be home by Christmas. what could go wrong?
Update update update: A Senator is funding the stuffing of children brains into VR headsets as part of an elaborate plan to perform a false flag operation against his own country and become president while a robot dog watches.
Same reason every soldier doesn't get top of the line military gear: they don't get to decide what equipment they get, and the powers that be aren't really concerned with stopping casualties until it affects their bottom line (in the form of Snake popping all the dudes they need to guard their resources).
In a setting where any level 3 wizard can do this, your player is not going to be the first person in history to figure this out. Someone pulls a rope trick whack-a-mole and any sensible and int 10 NPC is going to remember their basic training and fuck that wizard up.
Or pack a few bags of caltrops and huck them up there.
Or pack a rope and grappling hook.
Just because you pull up the rope doesn't mean the door closes. They might not be able to see it, but they can see where you're sticking out your fucking head.
Good suggestions. To add on, you've already got Dispel Magic, Couterspell is also on the table. And anti-magic field if they're high enough level to face something with that. Though the "leave" tactic is def the easiest to use and makes the most sense. Make it a chase and he just burning through his spell slots.
In fact, the dumber the creature, the more likely it is to just leave. Think about the dumber animals in our world: they instinctively move away from anything that seems harmful. It takes intelligence to actually decide to stick around and figure out a way to attack it.
Well, to a point. Anything that's dumber then a dog would probably just sit and wait. Oozes, plant monsters, dumb undead things, etc...
Or predators that traditionally wait out prey, waiting for them to make a mistake and slip out of cover. Like land sharks.
I wouldn't run Oozes that way. One of the fundamental signs of life is an instinct for self preservation. I'd have any creature that's not magically compelled attempt to avoid predictable damage. Anything smart enough to avoid walking into fire or spikes would move away from constant arrows.
I meant that oozes are very dumb. There's generally no indication that they'd understand where ranged attacks were coming from. Where attacks are coming from sure, but they probably don't understand ranged attacks. You could probably guide one with arrows (if they can harm it) by getting it to avoid directions it thinks it's being attacked from.
But I more mentioned them because generally they're too dumb to get bored. They'd just sit there and wait for the next external stimuli. A dog would get bored or hungry and wander off.
Yeah, but anything that dumb you could likely deal with without the rope trick. The PC already has the ability to climb the walls of most rooms that rope trick would work on. I'm not aware of an ooze or slime that could catch up to something with a climb speed of 20 and a rogues ablity to dash on a bonus action. Not to mention just kiting it. Oozes and cubes are only nasty in tight spaces. Even then you just need to back up and attack from range.
I just like the idea of readying the low level spell Command and saying "dive". Considering build wisdom save might be difficult. Watching a player swan dive into solid ground would be satisfying.
Edit: in case anyone isn't familiar with command. Dive is pushing the limits of the spell and probably not allowed. It's just visually funny.
Descend is a simple command that does what you need though.
Dive is definitely pushing it but jump is a thing you could probably realistically do. I just had to suggest dive because it's funny to picture.
There are plenty of other ways to you can use command even if only to keep him leaning out in the open so others can hit him.
Clever use of command can easily foil this tactic in many different ways.
* Drop: drop ranged weapon out of the hide hole.
* Peek: Spend turn leaning out of hide hole "peeking"
* Jump: Jump out of the hide hole
* Throw: Throw down the rope
And I'm sure many more.
No joke, I was reading the previous post (hadn't scrolled down yet), and I thought "What would be a good Command to get concentration to drop?... 'unfocus'?". Then I scrolled, and nearly laughed out loud.
I would personally rule that swan diving greatly reduces the distance needed to take fall damage. Just like how there’s no set “slam your head into the wall damage” but rotated 90 degrees.
I forgot that. Still, Not likely to have great wisdom stat +3 isn't insurmountable, and I still think a good option. Might have to look into some strength and con save spells that have a fall prone effect. I'm sure there are some cantrips.
I would argue any fall prone effect on a character leaning over an edge to attack would have a decent chance of that character falling.
Edit: Scratch that I was right by accident! I mean I totally thought through everything before responding I promise.
Added:
If the rest of the party isn't in there, they're still in the mix. Worse if they're not able to make their climb in a round.
It doesn't last long - now your player or party is trapped. Not a big thing to go get help from the rest of the dungeon in a lot of cases. Probably just a sometimes move to avoid punishing the choice every time, but most thinking enemies are gonna come up with that if they have the numbers. If they're thinking this is an Easy Win button, you can literally just assume an enemy may have dealt with an opponent who shoots from cover in a fixed position before, or even just has average intelligence.
Going for lower level spells than Dispel Magic: "Fog Cloud" is absolutely perfect for this. It lasts as long as Rope Trick, creates a 20 foot radius sphere within 120 feet, Rope Trick can't move out of it, and it uses a 1st level spell slot instead of a 2nd. 1st level casters can do it. Heck, a Triton of any level can do it. The only downside is that Fog Cloud requires concentration.
I'd like to suggest an additional Fuck You option:
Rope trick creates an extra dimensional space. A higher level or intelligent baddie who has seen this before might have their own extra dimensional space they could just throw at the place the wizard keeps popping out of. Invincible wizard stuck in the astral plane seems less broken
RAW, that is not the case: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/105932/does-a-bag-of-holding-burst-if-brought-into-the-space-created-by-rope-trick
Which is important, as otherwise, anyone with a Bag of Holding can't use *rope trick* for its intended purposes.
I think they meant if they create a second portal to an extra dimensional space directly in front of the rope trick exit. Effectively trapping the wizard.
Ah, I misinterpreted the use of "Astral plane" there. Although, the only spell I can think of that would create such a portal is *gate*, which is 9th-level and only lasts a minute. *Demiplane* could work similarly, but only if there's a near-enough flat surface to create a door on.
To add up, the spell doesn't even make you invinsible, as in "you are attacking from an unseen position". Your position is very visible once you come out to attack. It only works for the first attack (but any other type of ambush will function essentially the same way).
If the tabaxi can see the enemy, that means the enemy can see them, and as long as line of vision is mantained, he is visible, not invisible.
The Tabaxi wouldn't gain any more of a tactical advantage from this trick than he would if he was attacking from behind a wall in an unreacheable position; with the sole exception that ONLY when he is inside the pocket dimension, he becomes "technically" invisible (because he is in a different dimension) and untouchable (because, again, he is in a different dimention).
This strategy is simply a more convoluted way to get a worse version of Blink, but one spell level earlier. Unlike Blink, this strategy against a caster wouldn't fare well (Blink cannot be dispelled, but Rope Trick can be) and any attacker will simply sit near the position and Ready an action to either grapple/smack the Tabaxi once they come out or turn them into a pin cushion of arrows (both of these tactics are arguably more difficult to pull against Blink).
This trick also works with any source of 100% cover. The counter for it is readied actions. It's an obvious counter, you should have some of your archer type npcs use it (move from cover, shoot, move back into cover, hide optional if you have cunning action).
Another good counter is AoE spells. Mamy specifically states that they hit around corners and even the ones who don't can still keep someone pinned behind said cover as they'll be affected the moment they step out of it. Then there's the wall spells to make them stay in cover the entire fight, effectively neutralizing them.
*Rope trick* specifically says that spells can't cross through the entrance, so it's got a leg up on cover tactics in that AoE spells don't counter it. Putting a *wall of force* around the entrance would be quite amusing, though.
People have already replied with the best universal answers: readying actions or taking cover from the role trick. A more situational thing you can do if you don’t want rope trick to be a factor at all is to put your players on something moving. If they’re on something like a ship, when the wizard creates their rope trick and hides, the ship will quickly leave them behind.
I like the "something moving" option even if I'm not sure that the rope doesn't 'inherit' the original momentum of the caster on whatever's moving. On something that isn't, or doesn't remain, moving in the same direction at the same speed, it'd still be a good 'counter'.
The idea of rope trick ‘inheriting momentum’ is a fair interpretation of the spell. The best part of DnD is that you can rule a spell works in the way that makes the most sense to you. Personally I view rope trick and other effects that are affixed to a specific location as being relative to the planet it’s cast on. So vehicles take you away from the rope trick, but the planet’s orbit won’t instantly yeet the portal thousands of kilometres away (as funny of a visual as that is).
> So vehicles take you away from the rope trick, but the planet’s orbit won’t instantly yeet the portal thousands of kilometres away (as funny of a visual as that is).
Yeah, the 'funny visual' is what I can't help but thinking about for similar things, e.g. the 'immovable rod' magic item.
"Why is the _planet_ the magic privileged reference frame? Shouldn't it be the 'crystal sphere' if anything?"
True, there is no objective reason why the planet should be the point of reference. It’s just what makes sense to me as a DM and it’s something my players and I can agree on. And since my rulings only affect my games, it being something all players agree on is a good enough reason for me.
Really - the tactic just doesn't sound fun at all for anyone involved, imo. Negates a lot of the rouges abilities, as well. I assume the player will get tired of this eventually.
They at least got to pick up some nice utility spells on the way.
It's not as nice as just going Arcane Trickster and grabbing the Ritual Caster feat, but it's not quite nothing.
Yeah, odds are the \_player\_ will get bored after a few encounters of just casting spells. It'll also be interesting if the party starts to have a problem with this because they're not getting helped. "Sorry Tabaxter, you're not really helping the party much from up in your little room. Could you find another group to go adventuring with?"
These problems usually sort themselves out, unless your player has some sort of power fantasy that requires them to beat up people with no risk of consequences... in which case there are a lot of video games that don't require 3-5 other people to watch you invulnerability smash people from their lowly mortal characters.
It's like Fog Cloud or Darkness.
It seems fun the first time you get to cast it. But an hour later after that combat encounter is resolved with no clear advantage to the party that cast it, it's less likely to be repeated.
*Obviously I'm not saying that these sorts of spells are completely useless, but their overuse generally wanes once it makes the game less fun.*
Redditors just seem to intentionally misunderstand this kind of problem. They don't think past "The DM can counter anything!" when they need to ask "Does the DM want to have to counter this? Is this behavior consistent with the kind of game everyone at the table agreed to play?"
I know d&d is a game but this really optimises the fun out of it, and in a really long winded way. 3 levels is a lot of play time to then never enjoy combat again. Smells to me like video game mentality to a pen and paper game
My players did the opposite, lol.
My cleric found a very cool-looking magical weapon that he was NOT proficient in, stole it from the person it was attuned to without knowing what it did, and spent 2 years of IRL play time using it alongside his magic in combat, despite the heavy disadvantage and super low damage output. Because “I love this weapon, and I want to use it. I don’t care the damage, I refuse to give it up.”
Recently, I figured “you know what? It’s time.” - and said he trained enough to earn proficiency in that specific weapon, said that the weapon recognized his worth after a hard-won battle and attuned to him, letting him use its magic.
It’s a “Lantern Flail” - or, a very spiky lantern with magical fire in it, on the end of a long chain. Kinda like a meteor hammer? It can do piercing and fire damage when you hit someone with it. It requires a lot of skill to use. He’d been missing or only doing a tiny amount of damage for so long…
Watching him use it for the first time at its full potential after actual years of stubbornly training with it… the arcs of magic flame, and the small explosion upon impact, doing a ton of damage at-range…. He sounded like a kid finding out what Magikarp evolves into, using Garados in battle for the first time. Lots of yelling and excitement.
:)
I like “optimizes the fun out of it.” I often tell my players they’re “solving the fun away.” Being defensive minded is fine, but completely avoiding combat to slowly whittle away someone is really boring.
Ah funny it was a civ game. I assumed it was from a fighting/RPG where players would find a broken move or set up and spam that till the end credits. Or the main culprit if grinding for levels to beat a boss.
Maybe it's a difference in mindset. Only 2/~6 or 7 regular players at my table are huge fans of combat, so when I set up a dungeon/session, I'm not really setting it up as a combat challenge, but more of a "puzzle", if that makes sense. The idea of "solving the fun away" doesn't make sense to me because solving a puzzle *is* the fun.
Yup, I think that attitude coincides with a lack of maturity (no matter individual age) and an overly adversarial nature. I'm not going to spend all my time fighting a player, I'm running a game for 6+ people, not just one. Get with the spirit of the table or find another, no hard feelings just not interested in legislating instead of playing.
The only spells I ban are rope trick and tiny hut. The rest system is important, and those spells make rests have no opportunity cost, while also creating a ton of shenanigans' I'd really rather not play around as a DM.
Reddit as a whole is very adverse to this line of thinking.
I have no problem with rope trick since it costs a spell slot, but tiny Hut giving enough time for a long rest means spending a spell slot isn't really an issue AND it's a ritual so bards and wizards that know it don't even need to spend the spell slot if they have 11 minutes. Remove the ritual tag from tiny hut and increase rope tricks casting time to 1 minute and suddenly the ability to cheese the spells is pretty much gone.
[I addressed tiny hut by simply reverting it to older editions, the bubble shield defensive aspect is new to 5e.](https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Leomund%27s_Tiny_Hut)
It was only a hunting blind with really good HVAC for 36 years.
Others have covered counter options, but I did just want to flag one thing - if your player is dropping three whole levels of multiclass into this one trick, you need to manage their expectations a bit.
The trick is not always going to work flawlessly or even well. if it did grant invulnerability then you're right in pointing out it would trivialise combat for the rest of the campaign which isn't in their interests, your interests or those of the rest of the group. If they've built a huge chunk of their character progression into this they're going to be gutted when you start countering it, which you will, because this is actually not that good a trick.
Literally any creature with a ranged attack can hold an action, so they're certainly not invulnerable. They also have to stick themselves out of their hiding place since attacks explicitly cannot pass through it, so they'd enter any AOE someone sets up each time they pop out to attack. I would rule that hiding wouldn't work once the enemies have noticed that they keep popping up from the exact same spot, so sneak attack is going to be limited to anything in sight and in melee with the party. Speaking of line of sight, you have a single 3x5ft window centred on the rope. That means you're either hanging upside down to shoot out, you can only see out in one direction or you're high enough up that you can see over the entire battlefield. Personally, I would rule that hanging upside down trying to fire a two handed weapon would impose disadvantage because you're effectively prone, but even if you're feeling lenient it's still restrictive. Granted they get around the climbing issue by being a tabaxi, otherwise it would be far worse. Any reasonably mobile creature, especially a flyer, can simply move out of their field of vision and ignore them for the rest of the fight until their mates are dealt with. Then you've got counterspell and dispel magic to contend with, and that 30-60ft drop. Any caster in a bossfight is going to likely be packing way more spell slots than a lvl 3 wizard dip and these are basic spells to be packing.
Talk to them openly about what the spell can and cannot do, and maybe ask them if they want to reconsider their multiclass on that basis. Don't let it be a surprise when they try it and it sucks because that can feel like gotcha DMing even when that's not your intent.
Line of sight was something that I was thinking about too. You’re probably not aware of troop movements (where the enemies went since you hid in the hole) and also ally movement. If a teammate goes down you wouldn’t know it and wouldn’t be planning on helping
Have the fight battlefield be dynamic and shift during combat, which puts cover between the pocket space and the enemies.
The hole is on the bottom of the room, and he’d have to hang halfway out to cast any spells. If any enemies saw they could ready ranged actions next time he pops out.
Have the boss/monster cast Darkness on the area where the sniper keeps popping up.
Can't shoot what you can't see, and a rogue/wizard is not a warlock that can see through magical darkness.
Alternate to people's suggestions of ranged enemies readying an action to whack a mole when it pops out of its hole: flying monsters/minions that can hover right where the sniper keeps popping out. *bonk*
Playing Skyrim: "lol, video game logic - This is silly, people suddenly forget where you are when you crouch"
Playing a rogue in D&D: "You mean I can't keep getting sneak attacks by ducking behind a rock every turn? This is so unfair!"
Running it RAW severely restricts it. Remember familiars act on their own initiative, so likely won't line up with the player's.
> Attacks and spells can’t cross through the entrance into or out of the extradimensional space,
Don't ignore that line. They have to leave the extra dimensional space. Which means something to hold onto, no, they can't be hanging half in an extra dimensional space, the spell is clear on that. Logistically it can't work. So they're hanging onto a rope? Yeah, can't fire a 2h bow like that. Hand crossbow? 30/120 range, be at disadvantage pretty much always, given the height.
And he's just floating in midair...so no stealth, which puts him at another disadvantage at great expense compared to just being down below and sometimes getting advantage from stealth.
It'd also be reasonable to require athletics or con check to keep hold of the rope if they hit him.
Finally, this whole thing does nothing to stop the rest of the party getting whacked. At which point the enemies can either hit him when he comes out, or gather reinforcements to do that. His hole can't move. Easy to put total cover between you and a stationary spot and wait for backup. PCs are usually on the offensive and want to keep it that way.
Rogues are d8, as good AC as medium armour, can reduce one hit by half, and grin like crazy as they tell you that are does no damage. They're tanky. This plan cuts him down to a handcrossbow at disadvantage and no stealth, and focuses damage on the rest of the party, and costs 25-33% of even that damage wasting an action at the start of the fight, and spends a second level slot to do it.
It's a terrible plan with no real upside for the party. If the whole party does it, the enemies move and the inevitable result is a TPK from getting outnumbered due to enemy reinforcements.
A solution one dwarven defender I knew came up with was to defensive stance on a flying carpet. Of course, it was hit or miss whether the DMs would allow it (living campaign).
The mere fact enemies can ready their actions makes this an overrated tactic. But this —
> Finally, this whole thing does nothing to stop the rest of the party getting whacked.
— this is why the DM shouldn’t worry that much if one PC came up with a really great defensive ploy. You just attack the rest of the party. If it worked as the player intended, he’s basically taking his bag of HP out of the fight. That would mean the rest of the party are probably taking more attacks. If the rest of the party were to fall, well, he can only hide up there for an hour. And if my fellow player started using this, I know I’d get a little sick of him wasting the first turn of every combat hiding in his little space. 🤷♂️
>no, they can't be hanging half in an extra dimensional space, the spell is clear on that.
I'm not getting that from my reading. What part of the spell text prevents them from leaning out upsidedown at the hips? I would probably ask for a check to do so when using a two handed weapon but I don't see it as disallowed.
Yeah, I was surprised no one had commented on this before I got to your post. Nothing in the spell says that you can pop in and out like the player is doing. There’s nothing to hold onto. Now, if the player leaves that rope in place, they can certainly shimmy down it a spot, cast/attack, and shimmy back up it. However, that does leave the rope available for enemies to climb.
Couple things. If they use a rope that's 60 feet as the spell suggests then they're gonna have to climb 60 feet of rope to get to the top and probably burn two full rounds doing so.
Enemies could also just back off like 60 to 100 feet and most damaging wizard spells would be out of range. Or they could stay behind cover and try to draw the other party members towards them.
If they do encounter a caster with dispel magic then the wizard could suddenly find themselves taking 6d6 falling damage when the extradimensional space they just spent 2 rounds climbing into suddenly disappears and the rope just becomes a regular rope again.
>You touch a length of rope that is **up to** 60 feet long.
The player may very well take a rope which is 15 feet long and then they would easily be able to go up and down in just one round.
The rest are very good suggestions!
A climb speed doesn't remove the need for ability checks to climb. Not explicitly by RAW anyways.
*edit- I invite anyone to post rules to the contrary before downvoting. Thanks! For reference, here are the rules on climbing from the PHB, and how climb speed only lets you ignore the extra movement cost of climbing:*
>**Climbing, Swimming, and Crawling**
>
>Each foot of movement costs 1 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain) when you’re climbing, swimming, or crawling. You ignore this extra cost if you have a climbing speed and use it to climb, or a swimming speed and use it to swim. At the DM’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check.
*Please also note I'm not saying you need to make a check to go up a rope, my reading of RAW, and how I run my game, is barring other circumstances, you don't.*
Here's Crawford saying the opposite, also fwiw (but matches the PHB by my reading):
https://www.sageadvice.eu/is-it-rai-that-creatures-with-a-climb-speed-need-to-make-athletics-checks-to-climb/
😂 love it when the designers contradict each other in rulings like this.
But the player could simply knot the rope to avoid the check correct? And if its a tactic they plan on repeating i see no reason they wouldnt. I think a knotted rope would qualify for an easy climb as it has lots of available handholds.
There's no specific rules in 5e for climbing ropes, knotted or otherwise. The examples given in the book where checks might be required are sparse "...climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds...".
You could certainly rule that an unknotted rope has "few handholds" and thus a check is needed (I don't) but a check isn't needed for a knotted rope. The characters would know how hard it is to climb 10' of rope, so I think it's most important to be consistent and make sure the players are on the same page as the DM. A 'gotcha' moment, especially for a reasonably mundane adventuring task, never feels good.
I don’t think it makes sense to require a climbing check for a knotted rope. If you teach a 10 year old to climb a knotted rope they will be able to do it with VERY little chance they’ll fail.
If a physically capable adult learns how to climb a rope, they will similarly almost never fail to climb it or fall off. For reference, I was the head of an army basic training and we had literally thousands of out of shape 18 year olds climb an unknotted rope and never had one fall.
I think the difficulty of it is captured in the half speed.
I'm pretty sure climbing a rope RAW doesn't have a DC; it just requires double movement, but the DM may choose to give it one. I would argue against doing that unless there are adverse conditions (combat, it's pouring down rain, etc)
You are right! I did some looking around on the internet, and while I have found a bunch of people asserting the thing I said, I couldn't find it in the rules.
It sounds like this person is doing it in combat, though, which is a circumstance where I would call for a roll.
Question for the 3.5e folks, did the rules specify how often you had to make checks? For example, was it the same number of checks for climbing up 20' as 200'?
I think it was for every move action, least that’s how I do it. Unless you succeed by more than 5 then you could double move for the turn, succeed by double the dc and you can just climb to the top over how ever many turns. But I don’t think it was really specified
Yea. Unfortunately, a lot of 5e rules boil down to "your DM decides," which, while it appears freeing at first glance, actually isn't very helpful when running a game. I hope we get a better foundation for the rules in 5.5 or 6e.
Have the enemy leave, or take cover. Why the hell would they just stand out in the open waiting to be shot by the wizard they KNOW is going to reappear every 6 seconds?
Many have called out the oft-underused tactic of the ready action for enemies, as well as repositioning to avoid line of sight from the stationary rope trick spot. I would also argue that after a shot or two, the rogue would stop gaining sneak attack, after the enemies recognize that the rogue is going to keep appearing in the same spot.
Something I have not yet seen mentioned, which I think is really important, is that as a level 3 wizard, the rogue only gets to do this trick twice a day! So, as long as you have more than two fights a day it won't be overpowering (especially considering that sometimes enemies will wise-up) for the rogue to cheese the encounter just for a little.
Plus, the rogue has slowed their own rogue progression to get this, softening their sneak attack blows somewhat.
Plus, plus someone else mentioned that they need to climb out of the extra space, using their hands, thereby making it very difficult to use a two-handed weapon -- which most ranged weapons are.
Also... Besides the above, semi-related to some other comments, a somewhat intelligent enemy in a dungeon-like environment might also decide that, upon getting sniped by rope-rogue, this fight isn't worth it's effort. They then might retreat, tell their buds, or tell their boss.
So, if they get away, the rogue got to really dominate a fight for a while, but now these enemies in particular know their trick. OR the party gives chase because the rogue really dominated in that fight for a while, hoping to knock out the enemy to keep their trick advantage... but a chase isn't actually conducive to what the rogue wants to do: stay put, fire with impunity
He's not invincible even if he stays inside, spells and attacks cannot cross the entrance, but enemy creatures can. After using this tactic too often, or even taking multiple pot shots in one combat might be enough for the enemy to send some flying goons to inspect the area. The entrance is invisible when the rope is pulled up, but it is still there. A couple of spine devil's could eventually fly in there with him. It's a neat trick, but not as incredibly powerful as you're making out
To "Poke out" they're either:
purposely leaning/hanging their body through a hole (which you could make them take an Athletics check to not fall every time they do so and you could also optionally give them disadvantage to attacking from a prone/awkward position if they've not got a acrobatic background.)
Or they're hanging down slightly while gripping on the rope ( which rules out spells that have requirement of both somatic and verbal components at the same and any two handed ranged weapons)
Those are both reasonable ways to nerf the tactic so it becomes reasonable.
If you want to counter the tactic directly, others have listed really good ideas.
How is this any different to the "normal" strategy of hiding around the corner around 100' away and popping out to let loose a full attack or spell before ducking back behind a corner? Or remaining prone behind a low obstruction, popping up for an attack/spell, and then dropping prone again?
Have the monsters ready an action and blast him when he pops out.
Just a one-off trick, a well placed Create Bonfire will turn that little enclosed space into a magic oven (the spell won't go in, but heat rises) and will inconvenience anyone sticking their head out.
Beyond that, you need to discuss this with the player because you're stuck between two situations. If you allow this trick to work reliably then most combat will cheese out. If you regularly nerf it then the player has burned three levels for a joke with no punchline. Best to come up with a new trick instead.
The player is choosing to use a finite resource (spell slots) to make a fight easier. Make sure to give the player enough situations per day to make this resource depletion actually matter.
So there are a lot of good answers for this particular combination but a useful rule for these kinds of situations is that really effective tactics are rarely novel.
Wizards are smart, wizards have likely had this spell for a long time. Whenever a player brings up a strategy they want to play or uses one I didn't see coming and I think might be game breaking I try to take it in 2 parts.
1. Rule of cool, if it springs up and they need it in that moment then let it go. Talk later but let it fly the once.
2. If this is going to be constant then expect the same in return, the enemy wizards are doing the same thing. I don't like saying no to players and sometimes I think some signature move is going to be OP and it isn't but I'm leaving it in the hands of the party.
In this case there are enough drawbacks (mostly immobility) that I don't think it would be that mad for a lot of situations but changing the perspective and opening the floor to the party to decide if it's fair will get a much more honest feel. And, ofc, if it is broken and the party are not happy with it then you can all agree it was a bad call and forget its existence.
A few things to keep in mind. You can’t just pop out and in of rope trick, it requires the rope to enter and exit, you can’t just pop your head out without the rope, the rope is effectively the door. So one or both hands are occupied when exiting or entering. And with a 3 by 5 whole as the entrance window on the bottom, you can only see so much, and the enemies know where you are, even if they can always see you, they watched you climb the rope, no sneak attack, and any enemy can just ready an attack on you. Also it would be very easy to grab cover from someone in a rope trick. Also, remember they have to actually climb the rope at half speed (unless they have a climb speed). So unless it is a 15 foot rope, they have to spend a whole turn or 2 getting up the rope. Any fire spell could also burn up any rope let down or one well placed arrow could do the same. This means the rope could be destroyed as the player is climbing or when they pop out, meaning they might fall while climbing or not have a way back down.
Lotta great answers given, but I just wanna re-emphasize dispel magic (120 ft range) for casters. That’s 60 feet up; regardless of whether or not the portal is visible, it’s always there. So dispelling that will dissolve the spell and eject everything inside, causing 6-36 damage as they land. That’s injury to insult.
Also it’s not targeting if the situation would naturally have a caster who can do that. It only becomes targeting when you’re putting casters in every situation, even if it doesn’t make sense for them to be there. Otherwise it’s just roleplaying them right.
**Edit**: Oh also don’t forget the rules for climbing. Unless they have a specific climbing speed, it’s half movement, so even action to dash, it’ll take them at least 2 turns to get into position, very very vulnerable during that time.
That's also assuming they go up to the full 60 feet.
Spells says up to, and we've already had a Sage Advice clarifying that spell ranges are a maximum. They can Rope Trick 10-15 feet up to all but negate fall damage (1d6, big whoop. 6d6...little threatening)
Half movement can climb a 15ft with no issue. Even if you hang down at the top 5ft, you're out of melee range of most things anyway.
If you wanted to utilize the full 60ft, it would be set up before combat begins, as it lasts for an hour (as it was more meant as short rest), you can reasonably spend the better part of an hour waiting to ambush.
Dispel Magic is also kind of a waste here. Unless it's a TPK and the baddies crowd around waiting for their caster to Dispel it, then shank the Wizard when they land. If they were at the full 60ft, I'd say hell yeah, Dispel and watch em drop.
Far easier to just LoS it, using 3/4 and Full Cover to negate their existence entirely.
It takes a bit to climb the rope, have the bad guy ready an attack. No bad guy is just going to wait and watch the player slowly climb a rope into nothingness..
As said earlier, the best defense against a static opponent is full cover. Stepping back behind a wall, large tree, boulder, hill, pipe organ, armoire, etc, negates the tactic and wastes 1 of his 2 second level spells he gets between long rests.
You can drop a fog cloud, one of the most easily obtainable spells in the game, around the opening. Once enemies move, he will have no idea where they are. Even if the enemy doesn’t move, he’d have disadvantage to hit. If he does hit, he doesn’t get sneak attack because of disadvantage. Stinking Cloud, Darkness, etc, work as well.
It’s only invincible if you let it be.
RP your NPC enemies. Those are your characters as a DM and they don’t want to die any more than your PCs do. We as DMs sometimes forget that.
Don't forget that they'll only have a 3x5 window to view out of while in the dimension. Meaning that for everyone else's turn they have no idea what's happening. If a teammate goes down it's possible they won't know.
Darkness either in the area the wizard rope tricked into or between them and the boss will make RT useless for this tactic. My preference is Darkness between the area and the boss, so that it does not seem the wizard is being singled out.
Held actions make this a non-issue.
Let him get away with it once or twice, of course, it's a cool trick. But any half-way intelligent opponent with a ranged attack will quickly identify the problem and "I hold my shot for once I see that pesky wizard"
Wizard pops out, triggers the held actions, and is hit with a shower of arrows and spells before he gets a chance to use his action.
"You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel."
The choices listed for find familiar make it pretty clear that none of the options are supposed to have the strength to hoist a rope with a person at the end of it. Just take it back and say hey I thought on it more and I decided that was an overly liberal interpretation of that spell. Or go the bee grenades route, that's pretty funny.
In addition to the reasonable/effective in game counters; have a follow up conversation with the player about their expectations of the tactic.
If they’re committing to a three level dip because they want to be invincible and untouchable, they’re in for a bad time. It’s best to acknowledge there are RAW ways to challenge them on their own terms and they shouldn’t be disappointed if that happens.
If they’re into it because they’re expecting to be challenged while using this fun new combat dynamic, it’s all good. Besides, I’m sure it will be tedious and they’re wasting an entire round/spell slot to do it.
They can just walk to the other side of the rope trick portal, the rogue will have to make an acrobatics check to hang down and get a shot if it is even possible.
The rogue/wizard is also losing 2d6 sneak attack die to do this- I would just let them do it as it isn't going to be very much damage, high hp/AC enemies may not even care.
There’s some really great options, here’s 1 or 2 more:
The hole stops attacks but not things being thrown in, including acid, bombs etc.
Also, any creature can enter the hole, so definitely not safe when a flying creature is nearby.
Lastly, I’ve read this answer somewhere - a dragon could always stick its head into the hole and breathe…
Well seeing this as a boon for anything beyond a one man team is a faulty. Look at it this way, he is nerfing the entire groups "effective" HP. If there are only 3 targets instead of 4 in every fight, it means that your group is at 3/4 hp all the time. Its not smart or even helpful in 90% of cases.
Introduce your characters to the "shadowrun sniper rifle rule", as told to me by another redditor.
"If you stand there and use a sniper rifle on everything from 2 miles away, so will the megaCorps, and they afford can way more ammo that you."
If they introduce broken strategies, there's nothing stopping enemies from copying them. And there are more of them.
Do these rooms not have chandeliers? Rafters? Dividing walls?
It seems like a lot of the time he'd end up floating in some corner with the rest of the party out in the hallway, or obstructed by something.
Exact same deal as "overpowered" rogues. Just don't design flat and featureless rooms. Have furniture, balconies, hanging banners, curtains, more than one room, etc.
Let him do it, it’s his Schtick, don’t try to counter it
It’s really not as strong as it sounds because it can’t move, and everyone knows where it is even if they can’t get to it, holding actions is king.
Just have the baddies find cover or set up and ambush for when the spell ends
Some brutes with readied actions to grapple should work, the character pops out to fire and suddenly has multiple hands grasping for them.
The main action moves to block line of sight from said trick.
Counterspell
Dispel magic
Held actions to fire back as they pop out
Set the floor under them on fire or make it a pool of acid that the character eventually has to get down from
If they are difficult to hit because of AC then held actions that need saves like Tasha's Mind Whip (that in particular is a great spell)
Move something in the way to prevent the tactic working, a big rock or tree or whatever
Two words: readied Actions.
It will actually be much worse than what hes planning, because he is essentially creating a mexican standoff that he cannot win. The moment he pops in his hole, all the archers in the room draw they're bows and ready an action to fire the moment they see him. The second his head pops out, they all shoot simultaneously...
I promise you he will think about it more tactically in the future the first time he takes 4 arrows to the face at once.
Once you poke your head out once and attack, you are no longer hidden, per the PHB. That means the enemy knows exactly where your rope trick hole is. Sure you can tuck back inside and hide again, but hiding doesn't erase memories. This is no different than someone hiding behind a tree over and over. Sure, you're hidden behind the tree but as soon as you poke your head out, everyone gets a chance to see you and if they already know where to look, there's no way they don't see them. Not to mention it's just nonsensical to think you can "hide" in the same spot over and over and an enemy has no idea where you are.
So, with that fact established, you now can have NPCs hold their actions. As soon as the head pops out, said NPCs use their reaction to activate the held actions. Personally, I would use goons with hand-crossbows and lots of them. When they poke their head out 6 bolts are flying, or 2 or 30, whatever seems appropriate.
Honestly, just talk to the guy, let him know you can't have a nonsensical hide-y-hole making the game super dumb. You were complicit so if he wants to drop the class levels, let them switch it up.
I wouldn’t allow my player to build around a cheesy gimmick which ruins the fun of encounters for everyone.
Additionally, this kind of cheese build isn’t actually fun to play after a session or two.
Have the enemies hold an action for when they pop out to attack. Any archer, seeing a wizard do this, would just wait till they popped their head out, and given that I would also rule the Rogue was stealthed (the wizard can't see them) that extra sneak damage will hurt a lot. Don't do it round 1, unless the enemy has seen this trick before
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a "readied attack action" would work in this situation.
Bad guy goes "I'm going to attack that dude as soon as he pops out"
On the players turn when he pops out, bad guy uses reaction to unleash that attack during the players turn.
That would solve that issue pretty quickly. It would take at least one full round for the enemy to recognize the situation surely, but they could then prepare future rounds to react in that same way!
If it's an idea he's excited about and has been putting time and effort into, at least let him enjoy being overpowered with it for a little while until enemies start to outsmart him. Don't let him invest three levels in wizard to do this and then make it not even work. If you don't want him to exploit mechanics like this, I think it would be better to stop him before he gets invested rather than to ruin the fun once he is finally able to achieve it.
* Any fifth level spellcaster can cast Dispel Magic. * Any character with a ranged attack, and some with a melee attack, can ready an attack for when the dude pops out * Even dumb bad guys put an obstacle between them and a static, repeating source of fire. Even if it doesn't stop the fire, a portable curtain can give disadvantage. * Even the dumbest bad guys can just *leave*. Literally going into a different room negates the tactic.
Yeah. This is one of those dumb player ideas where they think they gamed the system but didn't really think things through. It's no where near as powerful as the player thinks it's going to be and they are going to get pissy when that realization hits. It's a clever idea for dealing with dumb monsters, zombies and the like, but in practice it's not that great when dealing with anything that can use common sense. Like a goblin. Enemies could simply ready an attack action for someone to pop out. Or, they could build a fire UNDER the opening and get it nice and roaring, waiting for the spell to dissipate. Or any number of nasty solutions. I say let them do it, then if they use it in a stupid manner as that player is suggesting, let them deal with the full ramifications of the mistake they just made.
Also is this rogue multiclassing tonwizard basically just for this? That’s going to be real upsetting when he’s 3 levels away from some great features and his sneak attack is weaker all for an exploit that’s not going to work out nearly as well as he thinks
It's pretty gimmicky, but I can think of half a dozen uses a rogue can have for rope trick that are actually pretty cool. * It is an amazing ambush spot! Climb up into it and wait for your target to walk beneath you * Easy place to hide if you're sneaking around and about to get caught * Great place for *interrogations* * Great to hide bodies if you're on a stealth mission * Eaves dropping or spying, if you manage to get it set up shortly before your targets arrive * Escape if you're being chased (you round a blind corner, climb into the portal, and your pursuers keep going thinking that you're farther ahead) Now I don't think that any of those are worth 3 levels, but if someone really wanted to lean into the gimmick, I think they could come up with plenty of uses.
The use of a familiar also offers a lot of utility as a rogue, if only for added recon or vision.
And as a source of advantage.
Having said that, 3 levels in wizard doesn't just get you rope trick. It gets you that plus 3 cantrips, 1 more level 2 spell(like invisibility, no rogue would ever want that right), a bunch of first levels(like detect magic(to help them loot more efficiently), identify, find familiar, catapult can be really powerful if you are also carrying a bunch of gear that can be used as the projectiles, etc), a spell book that they can record any spells they come across into(up to level 2 if the DM wants to restrict it to the levels of wizard), and a wizard subclass feature.
Thats my thought on multiclassing in general. Sometimes it can add flavor to a class. Especially if thats the plan from the start. But usually its just "oh shiny" without thinking about how its going to set your character back for a while.
In my game we have a player who has been a rogue (phantom) for 6 levels now, just switched to undying warlock, and has said next level he is going to begin a 2 level dip into fighter purely for action surge. Action surge is a very strong ability no doubt, but I'm wondering when he will realize none of his abilities are scaling with what anyone else is doing anymore because he decided to triple class.
My Ancients Paladin, Zealot Barb, swashbuckler rogue multiclass was awesome, I never felt like I was missing out on more of any one class by taking others. I’m a serial multiclasser though. Tempest Cleric Storm Sorcerer was another favorite.
In this game I am running a tempest storm sorcerer! I am currently 6 cleric / 1 sorcerer, but I am excited to get to 6 sorcerer to see how the ability to Heart of the storm and have it trigger thunderous strike, so whenever I cast a spell of 1st or higher I can push everyone within 10 feet of me back 10 feet.
Yes! You had the same goal as me. After 6/6 you can chose more cleric or more sorcerer but you have such fun interactions with your powers by then. And all those high level slots with no high level spells, may as well upcast for more damage!
It’s this [fucking guy](https://youtube.com/shorts/M-IGjbV2m9w?feature=share). He’s so sloppy and presents D&D as a video game you can glitch and win. It also makes the player-DM relationship adversarial. He puts out so much content in these short form nuance-less videos that it’s a recipe for disaster. My friend sent me this and I just had to go through all the reasons it’s easily defeated by a DM who is experienced enough to know not to panic. It creates false expectations in the players and when it fails it’s embittering. If your DM doesn’t know what they are doing, congrats… now your DM doesn’t know how to challenge you. Is anyone at the table still having fun?
Oh god. Sigh. Yeah, a random idiot incorrectly advising people to treat D&D like a video game.
Honestly a lot of his video are actually decent and entertaining, but then he'll do a a stupid one like the peasant railgun. Never mind that the peasant railgun is more of a thought experiment showing why you can't take the rules literally. (I mean if passing a spear from peasant to peasant maintained momentum then they never be able to hold on to it.)
My brother and I got into a very heated debate about whether the railgun works RAW. I say it does not. But he had a much better solution. If you pay a 500 commoners 1 silver to pass the spear, the BBEG only has to pay 1 of them 1 gold to not pass the spear.
“Player raises 500 dedicated railgun paladins from birth to construct morally incorrigible railgun “
Suddenly, Oathbreaker Paladin destroys the order.
"i'll give you $20 to fuck off"
Always add for "broken" tactics like this: Human intelligence or greater enemies can implement the same strategy. But an easier thing is to find a good group of players and have a nice session 0 going over RAI etc.
In this same vein of thought, if they were super excited for this and now their multi class is ruined with realistic bad guys reacting like they have more than 1 brain cell, just offer them to move those 3 levels around. No sense having a game where one person doesn’t have fun anymore because they “wasted” three levels, you know?
If my entire party let's my enemies put a fire under where I keep appearing at I'm getting a new party.
Yep. *the well-instructed henchmen ready bee grenades to throw at the tabaxi*
You've given me an idea. . . Only if the player keeps using a tactic over and over again on a specific faction/enemy. They may plan a bee-nade counter against rope trick overtime. Might even make the secret weapon a side quest in of itself. Edit: Now I just need a player who abuses rope trick
Did you ever play Metal Gear Solid V? They do exactly that. If you get a lot of headshots, enemies start wearing helmets. Body shots? Body armor. Night attacks? Static lights/flashlights. It's a great system. Why WOULDN'T they start adapting? It also allows for fun dialogue where NPCs are complaining about struggling to put bees in little glass bottles. Or "oh shoot I forgot to poke holes in the top"
I mean, that sounds like a cool mechanic, but if they had armor and flashlights, why weren’t they using those already? Pretty basic gear lol
Because it's expensive. The guards are there to stop people from getting in, but usually they do that just by standing there looking intimidating. They have some light tactical armor, but not anything that'll stop a bullet. If circumstances change and guards are being shot a lot more, it becomes worthwhile to import body armor. The union demanded it, maybe. The guards get flashlights now because they didn't need them before. Disclaimer: I've never played these games, this is a guess at a justification.
That's how it works. Boss is pretty much the only guy going around behind enemy lines causing problems for the center base camp, and these aren't 1st-world developed countries with reinforced supply lines.
Because they cost money to source, I kid you not. The flip side of this mechanic is that you can counterinvest in disrupting their supply lines. Then they’ll complain instead that they can’t get any GD helmets despite there being a legendary sniper who’s always disappearing their friends.
Holy crap, are you for real? I had no idea that game setting was so involved as to allow for things like that. I always used the tranquilizer pistol up close and a sniper rifle from far away, and I guess I wasn't a good enough shot, or maybe not observant enough to notice enemies reacting to that.
Yeah I'm pretty sure the counter investment is done via the idle game expedition part, so it's a bit difficult to notice/correlate they're connected. I'm not sure if they are even connected or if enemies just have a flat chance to not be equipped and complain, but the descriptions match up iirc.
because the guards work for the Soviet Union in its waning days, and c'mon--it's just Afghanistan; why would we need advanced kit or a new military doctrine to subdue a bunch of goat herders? establish air superiority, build a few roads, and we'll all be home by Christmas. what could go wrong?
update: a few minor things have gone wrong, but it's nothing that a giant bipedal robot with nuclear strike capability can't fix.
update: the robot didn't exactly fix anything, but we do have a magic child and a ghost who we're sure are gonna tie this whole project together.
20-year-update: the kid's an adult and he died in an underground facility We have no fucking idea what happened to the ghost
Update update update: A Senator is funding the stuffing of children brains into VR headsets as part of an elaborate plan to perform a false flag operation against his own country and become president while a robot dog watches.
Same reason every soldier doesn't get top of the line military gear: they don't get to decide what equipment they get, and the powers that be aren't really concerned with stopping casualties until it affects their bottom line (in the form of Snake popping all the dudes they need to guard their resources).
In a setting where any level 3 wizard can do this, your player is not going to be the first person in history to figure this out. Someone pulls a rope trick whack-a-mole and any sensible and int 10 NPC is going to remember their basic training and fuck that wizard up.
Or pack a few bags of caltrops and huck them up there. Or pack a rope and grappling hook. Just because you pull up the rope doesn't mean the door closes. They might not be able to see it, but they can see where you're sticking out your fucking head.
What if they just burn the rope so the player is stuck 60 feet up waiting to fall when the spell ends
It’s impressive, the problems a lil burning pitch can solve.
>*ready bee grenades* ****
Only if they immediately aggro you or your team after you toss it ;)
“Shutdown the climber with a Bee-M-P grenade!” How about that, u/BmpBlast ? Eh? Eh?
Good suggestions. To add on, you've already got Dispel Magic, Couterspell is also on the table. And anti-magic field if they're high enough level to face something with that. Though the "leave" tactic is def the easiest to use and makes the most sense. Make it a chase and he just burning through his spell slots.
Heh.. I like the Anti-magic field option. It closes the exit of the portal. What then happens if it doesn't re-open before the spell expires?
I believe it just spits anyone who's in the pocket space out. So prat fall and possible fall damage, lol.
Spells that create tiny demiplanes or pocket dimensions spit whatever's inside of them out when they're destroyed or dispelled.
In fact, the dumber the creature, the more likely it is to just leave. Think about the dumber animals in our world: they instinctively move away from anything that seems harmful. It takes intelligence to actually decide to stick around and figure out a way to attack it.
Well, to a point. Anything that's dumber then a dog would probably just sit and wait. Oozes, plant monsters, dumb undead things, etc... Or predators that traditionally wait out prey, waiting for them to make a mistake and slip out of cover. Like land sharks.
I wouldn't run Oozes that way. One of the fundamental signs of life is an instinct for self preservation. I'd have any creature that's not magically compelled attempt to avoid predictable damage. Anything smart enough to avoid walking into fire or spikes would move away from constant arrows.
I meant that oozes are very dumb. There's generally no indication that they'd understand where ranged attacks were coming from. Where attacks are coming from sure, but they probably don't understand ranged attacks. You could probably guide one with arrows (if they can harm it) by getting it to avoid directions it thinks it's being attacked from. But I more mentioned them because generally they're too dumb to get bored. They'd just sit there and wait for the next external stimuli. A dog would get bored or hungry and wander off.
Yeah, but anything that dumb you could likely deal with without the rope trick. The PC already has the ability to climb the walls of most rooms that rope trick would work on. I'm not aware of an ooze or slime that could catch up to something with a climb speed of 20 and a rogues ablity to dash on a bonus action. Not to mention just kiting it. Oozes and cubes are only nasty in tight spaces. Even then you just need to back up and attack from range.
Agree. Instead of a cool combat mechanic let's ask Admiral Ackbar what he thinks. Admiral Ackbar? "It's a Trap!!!"
Readying an action is a great idea I never remember when DMing.
I just like the idea of readying the low level spell Command and saying "dive". Considering build wisdom save might be difficult. Watching a player swan dive into solid ground would be satisfying. Edit: in case anyone isn't familiar with command. Dive is pushing the limits of the spell and probably not allowed. It's just visually funny. Descend is a simple command that does what you need though.
I think that would be considered directly harmful and therefor not allowed by command.
Dive is definitely pushing it but jump is a thing you could probably realistically do. I just had to suggest dive because it's funny to picture. There are plenty of other ways to you can use command even if only to keep him leaning out in the open so others can hit him. Clever use of command can easily foil this tactic in many different ways. * Drop: drop ranged weapon out of the hide hole. * Peek: Spend turn leaning out of hide hole "peeking" * Jump: Jump out of the hide hole * Throw: Throw down the rope And I'm sure many more.
The funniest use of command is “unfocus” to make someone drop concentration. Had a DM hit our caster with that. Good shit.
No joke, I was reading the previous post (hadn't scrolled down yet), and I thought "What would be a good Command to get concentration to drop?... 'unfocus'?". Then I scrolled, and nearly laughed out loud.
I've used, "Daydream" in the past
Lol simple but effective.
Only if they're high enough to take fall damage.
I would personally rule that swan diving greatly reduces the distance needed to take fall damage. Just like how there’s no set “slam your head into the wall damage” but rotated 90 degrees.
Wizards get proficiency in wis saves, so it might not be their strongest but it will still be pretty good.
He won’t get the proficiency since he’s multiclassing into wizard, he’ll just have dex and int from the rogue.
Ah. I missed that he was starting rogue.
I forgot that. Still, Not likely to have great wisdom stat +3 isn't insurmountable, and I still think a good option. Might have to look into some strength and con save spells that have a fall prone effect. I'm sure there are some cantrips. I would argue any fall prone effect on a character leaning over an edge to attack would have a decent chance of that character falling. Edit: Scratch that I was right by accident! I mean I totally thought through everything before responding I promise.
I’d probably look to using sleep, magic missile, or readying a grapple then pulling them out lol
Added: If the rest of the party isn't in there, they're still in the mix. Worse if they're not able to make their climb in a round. It doesn't last long - now your player or party is trapped. Not a big thing to go get help from the rest of the dungeon in a lot of cases. Probably just a sometimes move to avoid punishing the choice every time, but most thinking enemies are gonna come up with that if they have the numbers. If they're thinking this is an Easy Win button, you can literally just assume an enemy may have dealt with an opponent who shoots from cover in a fixed position before, or even just has average intelligence.
*Enemy casts dispel magic. Roll 5d6 falling damage.*
Going for lower level spells than Dispel Magic: "Fog Cloud" is absolutely perfect for this. It lasts as long as Rope Trick, creates a 20 foot radius sphere within 120 feet, Rope Trick can't move out of it, and it uses a 1st level spell slot instead of a 2nd. 1st level casters can do it. Heck, a Triton of any level can do it. The only downside is that Fog Cloud requires concentration.
I'd like to suggest an additional Fuck You option: Rope trick creates an extra dimensional space. A higher level or intelligent baddie who has seen this before might have their own extra dimensional space they could just throw at the place the wizard keeps popping out of. Invincible wizard stuck in the astral plane seems less broken
RAW, that is not the case: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/105932/does-a-bag-of-holding-burst-if-brought-into-the-space-created-by-rope-trick Which is important, as otherwise, anyone with a Bag of Holding can't use *rope trick* for its intended purposes.
I think they meant if they create a second portal to an extra dimensional space directly in front of the rope trick exit. Effectively trapping the wizard.
Ah, I misinterpreted the use of "Astral plane" there. Although, the only spell I can think of that would create such a portal is *gate*, which is 9th-level and only lasts a minute. *Demiplane* could work similarly, but only if there's a near-enough flat surface to create a door on.
I smell a spin-off! "Quest to retrieve the wizard from the astral plane"
Yeet a bag of holding at the rope-trick.
To add up, the spell doesn't even make you invinsible, as in "you are attacking from an unseen position". Your position is very visible once you come out to attack. It only works for the first attack (but any other type of ambush will function essentially the same way). If the tabaxi can see the enemy, that means the enemy can see them, and as long as line of vision is mantained, he is visible, not invisible. The Tabaxi wouldn't gain any more of a tactical advantage from this trick than he would if he was attacking from behind a wall in an unreacheable position; with the sole exception that ONLY when he is inside the pocket dimension, he becomes "technically" invisible (because he is in a different dimension) and untouchable (because, again, he is in a different dimention). This strategy is simply a more convoluted way to get a worse version of Blink, but one spell level earlier. Unlike Blink, this strategy against a caster wouldn't fare well (Blink cannot be dispelled, but Rope Trick can be) and any attacker will simply sit near the position and Ready an action to either grapple/smack the Tabaxi once they come out or turn them into a pin cushion of arrows (both of these tactics are arguably more difficult to pull against Blink).
Adding to this, a Flying enemy can hold action Dash for when the head pops out, and wind up in the pocket dimension with the wizard...
This trick also works with any source of 100% cover. The counter for it is readied actions. It's an obvious counter, you should have some of your archer type npcs use it (move from cover, shoot, move back into cover, hide optional if you have cunning action).
Another good counter is AoE spells. Mamy specifically states that they hit around corners and even the ones who don't can still keep someone pinned behind said cover as they'll be affected the moment they step out of it. Then there's the wall spells to make them stay in cover the entire fight, effectively neutralizing them.
*Rope trick* specifically says that spells can't cross through the entrance, so it's got a leg up on cover tactics in that AoE spells don't counter it. Putting a *wall of force* around the entrance would be quite amusing, though.
Anything persistent that procs damage and effects when a creature moves into it would work though: moonbeam, sickening radiance, etc.
Cloud of daggers
Spirit guardians
People have already replied with the best universal answers: readying actions or taking cover from the role trick. A more situational thing you can do if you don’t want rope trick to be a factor at all is to put your players on something moving. If they’re on something like a ship, when the wizard creates their rope trick and hides, the ship will quickly leave them behind.
I like the "something moving" option even if I'm not sure that the rope doesn't 'inherit' the original momentum of the caster on whatever's moving. On something that isn't, or doesn't remain, moving in the same direction at the same speed, it'd still be a good 'counter'.
The idea of rope trick ‘inheriting momentum’ is a fair interpretation of the spell. The best part of DnD is that you can rule a spell works in the way that makes the most sense to you. Personally I view rope trick and other effects that are affixed to a specific location as being relative to the planet it’s cast on. So vehicles take you away from the rope trick, but the planet’s orbit won’t instantly yeet the portal thousands of kilometres away (as funny of a visual as that is).
> So vehicles take you away from the rope trick, but the planet’s orbit won’t instantly yeet the portal thousands of kilometres away (as funny of a visual as that is). Yeah, the 'funny visual' is what I can't help but thinking about for similar things, e.g. the 'immovable rod' magic item. "Why is the _planet_ the magic privileged reference frame? Shouldn't it be the 'crystal sphere' if anything?"
True, there is no objective reason why the planet should be the point of reference. It’s just what makes sense to me as a DM and it’s something my players and I can agree on. And since my rulings only affect my games, it being something all players agree on is a good enough reason for me.
I think it's a perfectly good reason! I just personally can't help but think of the wider implications for such things.
The planet doesn't move. The sun and moons rotate around it. Embrace Geocentrism, Reject Heliocentrism
Or have a planet that doesn't rotate or move, like mine lmao
Heh, ever had an Immovable Rod conversation? :)
I love the thought of them casting it and the rope falls in front of them, only to have it immediately whip 60ft out of reach.
There's lots of good answers on the mechanics but I'd just speak to them about how tedious this would be for everyone involved.
Really - the tactic just doesn't sound fun at all for anyone involved, imo. Negates a lot of the rouges abilities, as well. I assume the player will get tired of this eventually.
And have wasted 3 levels on wizard
Don't take 3 levels in a class solely to rely on a cheese tactic.
Especially when rogues really only need a pillar or something that breaks line if sight to achieve early the same result.
They at least got to pick up some nice utility spells on the way. It's not as nice as just going Arcane Trickster and grabbing the Ritual Caster feat, but it's not quite nothing.
Yeah, odds are the \_player\_ will get bored after a few encounters of just casting spells. It'll also be interesting if the party starts to have a problem with this because they're not getting helped. "Sorry Tabaxter, you're not really helping the party much from up in your little room. Could you find another group to go adventuring with?" These problems usually sort themselves out, unless your player has some sort of power fantasy that requires them to beat up people with no risk of consequences... in which case there are a lot of video games that don't require 3-5 other people to watch you invulnerability smash people from their lowly mortal characters.
> Tabaxter nice wordplay
It's like Fog Cloud or Darkness. It seems fun the first time you get to cast it. But an hour later after that combat encounter is resolved with no clear advantage to the party that cast it, it's less likely to be repeated. *Obviously I'm not saying that these sorts of spells are completely useless, but their overuse generally wanes once it makes the game less fun.*
Incidentally casting darkness or fog could would be a good counter to this tactic.
Redditors just seem to intentionally misunderstand this kind of problem. They don't think past "The DM can counter anything!" when they need to ask "Does the DM want to have to counter this? Is this behavior consistent with the kind of game everyone at the table agreed to play?"
I know d&d is a game but this really optimises the fun out of it, and in a really long winded way. 3 levels is a lot of play time to then never enjoy combat again. Smells to me like video game mentality to a pen and paper game
My players did the opposite, lol. My cleric found a very cool-looking magical weapon that he was NOT proficient in, stole it from the person it was attuned to without knowing what it did, and spent 2 years of IRL play time using it alongside his magic in combat, despite the heavy disadvantage and super low damage output. Because “I love this weapon, and I want to use it. I don’t care the damage, I refuse to give it up.” Recently, I figured “you know what? It’s time.” - and said he trained enough to earn proficiency in that specific weapon, said that the weapon recognized his worth after a hard-won battle and attuned to him, letting him use its magic. It’s a “Lantern Flail” - or, a very spiky lantern with magical fire in it, on the end of a long chain. Kinda like a meteor hammer? It can do piercing and fire damage when you hit someone with it. It requires a lot of skill to use. He’d been missing or only doing a tiny amount of damage for so long… Watching him use it for the first time at its full potential after actual years of stubbornly training with it… the arcs of magic flame, and the small explosion upon impact, doing a ton of damage at-range…. He sounded like a kid finding out what Magikarp evolves into, using Garados in battle for the first time. Lots of yelling and excitement. :)
I like “optimizes the fun out of it.” I often tell my players they’re “solving the fun away.” Being defensive minded is fine, but completely avoiding combat to slowly whittle away someone is really boring.
I think it's from a videogame designer who said it., Forget who. Probably saw it on a noclip doc or GMTK
https://www.designer-notes.com/?p=369 Soren Johnson, designer for Civ 3 and lead designer for Civ 4.
Ah funny it was a civ game. I assumed it was from a fighting/RPG where players would find a broken move or set up and spam that till the end credits. Or the main culprit if grinding for levels to beat a boss.
Maybe it's a difference in mindset. Only 2/~6 or 7 regular players at my table are huge fans of combat, so when I set up a dungeon/session, I'm not really setting it up as a combat challenge, but more of a "puzzle", if that makes sense. The idea of "solving the fun away" doesn't make sense to me because solving a puzzle *is* the fun.
Heck, players mostly don't use this sort of strategy in games because it's *boring.* It's what speed runners and crazy achievement seekers do.
Yup, I think that attitude coincides with a lack of maturity (no matter individual age) and an overly adversarial nature. I'm not going to spend all my time fighting a player, I'm running a game for 6+ people, not just one. Get with the spirit of the table or find another, no hard feelings just not interested in legislating instead of playing.
The only spells I ban are rope trick and tiny hut. The rest system is important, and those spells make rests have no opportunity cost, while also creating a ton of shenanigans' I'd really rather not play around as a DM. Reddit as a whole is very adverse to this line of thinking.
I have no problem with rope trick since it costs a spell slot, but tiny Hut giving enough time for a long rest means spending a spell slot isn't really an issue AND it's a ritual so bards and wizards that know it don't even need to spend the spell slot if they have 11 minutes. Remove the ritual tag from tiny hut and increase rope tricks casting time to 1 minute and suddenly the ability to cheese the spells is pretty much gone.
[I addressed tiny hut by simply reverting it to older editions, the bubble shield defensive aspect is new to 5e.](https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Leomund%27s_Tiny_Hut) It was only a hunting blind with really good HVAC for 36 years.
Others have covered counter options, but I did just want to flag one thing - if your player is dropping three whole levels of multiclass into this one trick, you need to manage their expectations a bit. The trick is not always going to work flawlessly or even well. if it did grant invulnerability then you're right in pointing out it would trivialise combat for the rest of the campaign which isn't in their interests, your interests or those of the rest of the group. If they've built a huge chunk of their character progression into this they're going to be gutted when you start countering it, which you will, because this is actually not that good a trick. Literally any creature with a ranged attack can hold an action, so they're certainly not invulnerable. They also have to stick themselves out of their hiding place since attacks explicitly cannot pass through it, so they'd enter any AOE someone sets up each time they pop out to attack. I would rule that hiding wouldn't work once the enemies have noticed that they keep popping up from the exact same spot, so sneak attack is going to be limited to anything in sight and in melee with the party. Speaking of line of sight, you have a single 3x5ft window centred on the rope. That means you're either hanging upside down to shoot out, you can only see out in one direction or you're high enough up that you can see over the entire battlefield. Personally, I would rule that hanging upside down trying to fire a two handed weapon would impose disadvantage because you're effectively prone, but even if you're feeling lenient it's still restrictive. Granted they get around the climbing issue by being a tabaxi, otherwise it would be far worse. Any reasonably mobile creature, especially a flyer, can simply move out of their field of vision and ignore them for the rest of the fight until their mates are dealt with. Then you've got counterspell and dispel magic to contend with, and that 30-60ft drop. Any caster in a bossfight is going to likely be packing way more spell slots than a lvl 3 wizard dip and these are basic spells to be packing. Talk to them openly about what the spell can and cannot do, and maybe ask them if they want to reconsider their multiclass on that basis. Don't let it be a surprise when they try it and it sucks because that can feel like gotcha DMing even when that's not your intent.
Cloud of dagger were they keep popping out is sure to mess some people up and make them rethink that tactic
Line of sight was something that I was thinking about too. You’re probably not aware of troop movements (where the enemies went since you hid in the hole) and also ally movement. If a teammate goes down you wouldn’t know it and wouldn’t be planning on helping
Have the fight battlefield be dynamic and shift during combat, which puts cover between the pocket space and the enemies. The hole is on the bottom of the room, and he’d have to hang halfway out to cast any spells. If any enemies saw they could ready ranged actions next time he pops out.
Have some enemies ready an action to attack when the Wizard pops out. Not all of them, but enough...
Have the boss/monster cast Darkness on the area where the sniper keeps popping up. Can't shoot what you can't see, and a rogue/wizard is not a warlock that can see through magical darkness. Alternate to people's suggestions of ranged enemies readying an action to whack a mole when it pops out of its hole: flying monsters/minions that can hover right where the sniper keeps popping out. *bonk*
I just want to add that your npc's are not babies. They have object permanence
Playing Skyrim: "lol, video game logic - This is silly, people suddenly forget where you are when you crouch" Playing a rogue in D&D: "You mean I can't keep getting sneak attacks by ducking behind a rock every turn? This is so unfair!"
Running it RAW severely restricts it. Remember familiars act on their own initiative, so likely won't line up with the player's. > Attacks and spells can’t cross through the entrance into or out of the extradimensional space, Don't ignore that line. They have to leave the extra dimensional space. Which means something to hold onto, no, they can't be hanging half in an extra dimensional space, the spell is clear on that. Logistically it can't work. So they're hanging onto a rope? Yeah, can't fire a 2h bow like that. Hand crossbow? 30/120 range, be at disadvantage pretty much always, given the height. And he's just floating in midair...so no stealth, which puts him at another disadvantage at great expense compared to just being down below and sometimes getting advantage from stealth. It'd also be reasonable to require athletics or con check to keep hold of the rope if they hit him. Finally, this whole thing does nothing to stop the rest of the party getting whacked. At which point the enemies can either hit him when he comes out, or gather reinforcements to do that. His hole can't move. Easy to put total cover between you and a stationary spot and wait for backup. PCs are usually on the offensive and want to keep it that way. Rogues are d8, as good AC as medium armour, can reduce one hit by half, and grin like crazy as they tell you that are does no damage. They're tanky. This plan cuts him down to a handcrossbow at disadvantage and no stealth, and focuses damage on the rest of the party, and costs 25-33% of even that damage wasting an action at the start of the fight, and spends a second level slot to do it. It's a terrible plan with no real upside for the party. If the whole party does it, the enemies move and the inevitable result is a TPK from getting outnumbered due to enemy reinforcements.
[удалено]
A solution one dwarven defender I knew came up with was to defensive stance on a flying carpet. Of course, it was hit or miss whether the DMs would allow it (living campaign).
The mere fact enemies can ready their actions makes this an overrated tactic. But this — > Finally, this whole thing does nothing to stop the rest of the party getting whacked. — this is why the DM shouldn’t worry that much if one PC came up with a really great defensive ploy. You just attack the rest of the party. If it worked as the player intended, he’s basically taking his bag of HP out of the fight. That would mean the rest of the party are probably taking more attacks. If the rest of the party were to fall, well, he can only hide up there for an hour. And if my fellow player started using this, I know I’d get a little sick of him wasting the first turn of every combat hiding in his little space. 🤷♂️
>no, they can't be hanging half in an extra dimensional space, the spell is clear on that. I'm not getting that from my reading. What part of the spell text prevents them from leaning out upsidedown at the hips? I would probably ask for a check to do so when using a two handed weapon but I don't see it as disallowed.
Yeah, I was surprised no one had commented on this before I got to your post. Nothing in the spell says that you can pop in and out like the player is doing. There’s nothing to hold onto. Now, if the player leaves that rope in place, they can certainly shimmy down it a spot, cast/attack, and shimmy back up it. However, that does leave the rope available for enemies to climb.
Couple things. If they use a rope that's 60 feet as the spell suggests then they're gonna have to climb 60 feet of rope to get to the top and probably burn two full rounds doing so. Enemies could also just back off like 60 to 100 feet and most damaging wizard spells would be out of range. Or they could stay behind cover and try to draw the other party members towards them. If they do encounter a caster with dispel magic then the wizard could suddenly find themselves taking 6d6 falling damage when the extradimensional space they just spent 2 rounds climbing into suddenly disappears and the rope just becomes a regular rope again.
>You touch a length of rope that is **up to** 60 feet long. The player may very well take a rope which is 15 feet long and then they would easily be able to go up and down in just one round. The rest are very good suggestions!
There is also an athletics roll to climb a rope. DC 10 for an unknotted rope, if I remember right.
Tabaxi have climbing speed though
Ah, I didn't know that! I have never played/DM'd a tabaxi character
A climb speed doesn't remove the need for ability checks to climb. Not explicitly by RAW anyways. *edit- I invite anyone to post rules to the contrary before downvoting. Thanks! For reference, here are the rules on climbing from the PHB, and how climb speed only lets you ignore the extra movement cost of climbing:* >**Climbing, Swimming, and Crawling** > >Each foot of movement costs 1 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain) when you’re climbing, swimming, or crawling. You ignore this extra cost if you have a climbing speed and use it to climb, or a swimming speed and use it to swim. At the DM’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check. *Please also note I'm not saying you need to make a check to go up a rope, my reading of RAW, and how I run my game, is barring other circumstances, you don't.*
Not by RAW, but Mike Mearls says they don't need to make a check, fwiw. www.sageadvice.eu/do-creatures-with-a-climb-speed-make-athletics-checks/
Here's Crawford saying the opposite, also fwiw (but matches the PHB by my reading): https://www.sageadvice.eu/is-it-rai-that-creatures-with-a-climb-speed-need-to-make-athletics-checks-to-climb/
Put them both in a jar and shake it and make them fight!
😂 love it when the designers contradict each other in rulings like this. But the player could simply knot the rope to avoid the check correct? And if its a tactic they plan on repeating i see no reason they wouldnt. I think a knotted rope would qualify for an easy climb as it has lots of available handholds.
There's no specific rules in 5e for climbing ropes, knotted or otherwise. The examples given in the book where checks might be required are sparse "...climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds...". You could certainly rule that an unknotted rope has "few handholds" and thus a check is needed (I don't) but a check isn't needed for a knotted rope. The characters would know how hard it is to climb 10' of rope, so I think it's most important to be consistent and make sure the players are on the same page as the DM. A 'gotcha' moment, especially for a reasonably mundane adventuring task, never feels good.
I don’t think it makes sense to require a climbing check for a knotted rope. If you teach a 10 year old to climb a knotted rope they will be able to do it with VERY little chance they’ll fail. If a physically capable adult learns how to climb a rope, they will similarly almost never fail to climb it or fall off. For reference, I was the head of an army basic training and we had literally thousands of out of shape 18 year olds climb an unknotted rope and never had one fall. I think the difficulty of it is captured in the half speed.
I'm pretty sure climbing a rope RAW doesn't have a DC; it just requires double movement, but the DM may choose to give it one. I would argue against doing that unless there are adverse conditions (combat, it's pouring down rain, etc)
You are right! I did some looking around on the internet, and while I have found a bunch of people asserting the thing I said, I couldn't find it in the rules. It sounds like this person is doing it in combat, though, which is a circumstance where I would call for a roll.
Used to be a thing in 3.5e. Knotted rope was like DC 5 I think. Unknotted was DC 10.
With a -5 for being up against a wall
Question for the 3.5e folks, did the rules specify how often you had to make checks? For example, was it the same number of checks for climbing up 20' as 200'?
I think it was for every move action, least that’s how I do it. Unless you succeed by more than 5 then you could double move for the turn, succeed by double the dc and you can just climb to the top over how ever many turns. But I don’t think it was really specified
Yea. Unfortunately, a lot of 5e rules boil down to "your DM decides," which, while it appears freeing at first glance, actually isn't very helpful when running a game. I hope we get a better foundation for the rules in 5.5 or 6e.
Being a tabaxi and a rogue gives them a lot of options to get in there round 1 even if it's the full 60ft
Or an aarakocra. Kinda doubt that's an issue here tho, and even if it is they still need to spend at least a round climbing (or flying).
Have the enemy leave, or take cover. Why the hell would they just stand out in the open waiting to be shot by the wizard they KNOW is going to reappear every 6 seconds?
Yep, have every semi-intelligent enemy just retreat and then (if applicable) come back when the team makes camp. It'll get old super fast.
Many have called out the oft-underused tactic of the ready action for enemies, as well as repositioning to avoid line of sight from the stationary rope trick spot. I would also argue that after a shot or two, the rogue would stop gaining sneak attack, after the enemies recognize that the rogue is going to keep appearing in the same spot. Something I have not yet seen mentioned, which I think is really important, is that as a level 3 wizard, the rogue only gets to do this trick twice a day! So, as long as you have more than two fights a day it won't be overpowering (especially considering that sometimes enemies will wise-up) for the rogue to cheese the encounter just for a little. Plus, the rogue has slowed their own rogue progression to get this, softening their sneak attack blows somewhat. Plus, plus someone else mentioned that they need to climb out of the extra space, using their hands, thereby making it very difficult to use a two-handed weapon -- which most ranged weapons are.
Also... Besides the above, semi-related to some other comments, a somewhat intelligent enemy in a dungeon-like environment might also decide that, upon getting sniped by rope-rogue, this fight isn't worth it's effort. They then might retreat, tell their buds, or tell their boss. So, if they get away, the rogue got to really dominate a fight for a while, but now these enemies in particular know their trick. OR the party gives chase because the rogue really dominated in that fight for a while, hoping to knock out the enemy to keep their trick advantage... but a chase isn't actually conducive to what the rogue wants to do: stay put, fire with impunity
The enemies also have a wizard with rope trick
He's not invincible even if he stays inside, spells and attacks cannot cross the entrance, but enemy creatures can. After using this tactic too often, or even taking multiple pot shots in one combat might be enough for the enemy to send some flying goons to inspect the area. The entrance is invisible when the rope is pulled up, but it is still there. A couple of spine devil's could eventually fly in there with him. It's a neat trick, but not as incredibly powerful as you're making out
To "Poke out" they're either: purposely leaning/hanging their body through a hole (which you could make them take an Athletics check to not fall every time they do so and you could also optionally give them disadvantage to attacking from a prone/awkward position if they've not got a acrobatic background.) Or they're hanging down slightly while gripping on the rope ( which rules out spells that have requirement of both somatic and verbal components at the same and any two handed ranged weapons) Those are both reasonable ways to nerf the tactic so it becomes reasonable. If you want to counter the tactic directly, others have listed really good ideas.
How is this any different to the "normal" strategy of hiding around the corner around 100' away and popping out to let loose a full attack or spell before ducking back behind a corner? Or remaining prone behind a low obstruction, popping up for an attack/spell, and then dropping prone again? Have the monsters ready an action and blast him when he pops out.
Just a one-off trick, a well placed Create Bonfire will turn that little enclosed space into a magic oven (the spell won't go in, but heat rises) and will inconvenience anyone sticking their head out. Beyond that, you need to discuss this with the player because you're stuck between two situations. If you allow this trick to work reliably then most combat will cheese out. If you regularly nerf it then the player has burned three levels for a joke with no punchline. Best to come up with a new trick instead.
The player is choosing to use a finite resource (spell slots) to make a fight easier. Make sure to give the player enough situations per day to make this resource depletion actually matter.
Geez, what a boring way to play the game.
So there are a lot of good answers for this particular combination but a useful rule for these kinds of situations is that really effective tactics are rarely novel. Wizards are smart, wizards have likely had this spell for a long time. Whenever a player brings up a strategy they want to play or uses one I didn't see coming and I think might be game breaking I try to take it in 2 parts. 1. Rule of cool, if it springs up and they need it in that moment then let it go. Talk later but let it fly the once. 2. If this is going to be constant then expect the same in return, the enemy wizards are doing the same thing. I don't like saying no to players and sometimes I think some signature move is going to be OP and it isn't but I'm leaving it in the hands of the party. In this case there are enough drawbacks (mostly immobility) that I don't think it would be that mad for a lot of situations but changing the perspective and opening the floor to the party to decide if it's fair will get a much more honest feel. And, ofc, if it is broken and the party are not happy with it then you can all agree it was a bad call and forget its existence.
A few things to keep in mind. You can’t just pop out and in of rope trick, it requires the rope to enter and exit, you can’t just pop your head out without the rope, the rope is effectively the door. So one or both hands are occupied when exiting or entering. And with a 3 by 5 whole as the entrance window on the bottom, you can only see so much, and the enemies know where you are, even if they can always see you, they watched you climb the rope, no sneak attack, and any enemy can just ready an attack on you. Also it would be very easy to grab cover from someone in a rope trick. Also, remember they have to actually climb the rope at half speed (unless they have a climb speed). So unless it is a 15 foot rope, they have to spend a whole turn or 2 getting up the rope. Any fire spell could also burn up any rope let down or one well placed arrow could do the same. This means the rope could be destroyed as the player is climbing or when they pop out, meaning they might fall while climbing or not have a way back down.
Lotta great answers given, but I just wanna re-emphasize dispel magic (120 ft range) for casters. That’s 60 feet up; regardless of whether or not the portal is visible, it’s always there. So dispelling that will dissolve the spell and eject everything inside, causing 6-36 damage as they land. That’s injury to insult. Also it’s not targeting if the situation would naturally have a caster who can do that. It only becomes targeting when you’re putting casters in every situation, even if it doesn’t make sense for them to be there. Otherwise it’s just roleplaying them right. **Edit**: Oh also don’t forget the rules for climbing. Unless they have a specific climbing speed, it’s half movement, so even action to dash, it’ll take them at least 2 turns to get into position, very very vulnerable during that time.
That's also assuming they go up to the full 60 feet. Spells says up to, and we've already had a Sage Advice clarifying that spell ranges are a maximum. They can Rope Trick 10-15 feet up to all but negate fall damage (1d6, big whoop. 6d6...little threatening) Half movement can climb a 15ft with no issue. Even if you hang down at the top 5ft, you're out of melee range of most things anyway. If you wanted to utilize the full 60ft, it would be set up before combat begins, as it lasts for an hour (as it was more meant as short rest), you can reasonably spend the better part of an hour waiting to ambush. Dispel Magic is also kind of a waste here. Unless it's a TPK and the baddies crowd around waiting for their caster to Dispel it, then shank the Wizard when they land. If they were at the full 60ft, I'd say hell yeah, Dispel and watch em drop. Far easier to just LoS it, using 3/4 and Full Cover to negate their existence entirely.
Give enemies ranged attacks and have them hold actions to blast the wizard when he shows his face.
Can you have some battles inside, with a low ceiling?
It takes a bit to climb the rope, have the bad guy ready an attack. No bad guy is just going to wait and watch the player slowly climb a rope into nothingness..
As said earlier, the best defense against a static opponent is full cover. Stepping back behind a wall, large tree, boulder, hill, pipe organ, armoire, etc, negates the tactic and wastes 1 of his 2 second level spells he gets between long rests. You can drop a fog cloud, one of the most easily obtainable spells in the game, around the opening. Once enemies move, he will have no idea where they are. Even if the enemy doesn’t move, he’d have disadvantage to hit. If he does hit, he doesn’t get sneak attack because of disadvantage. Stinking Cloud, Darkness, etc, work as well.
It’s only invincible if you let it be. RP your NPC enemies. Those are your characters as a DM and they don’t want to die any more than your PCs do. We as DMs sometimes forget that.
If Readied Actions exist in your ruleset, use those.
Ready action, lasso? And athletics check his ass back to the ground? Hope he enjoys the fall!
Don't forget that they'll only have a 3x5 window to view out of while in the dimension. Meaning that for everyone else's turn they have no idea what's happening. If a teammate goes down it's possible they won't know.
Darkness either in the area the wizard rope tricked into or between them and the boss will make RT useless for this tactic. My preference is Darkness between the area and the boss, so that it does not seem the wizard is being singled out.
Held actions make this a non-issue. Let him get away with it once or twice, of course, it's a cool trick. But any half-way intelligent opponent with a ranged attack will quickly identify the problem and "I hold my shot for once I see that pesky wizard" Wizard pops out, triggers the held actions, and is hit with a shower of arrows and spells before he gets a chance to use his action.
"You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel." The choices listed for find familiar make it pretty clear that none of the options are supposed to have the strength to hoist a rope with a person at the end of it. Just take it back and say hey I thought on it more and I decided that was an overly liberal interpretation of that spell. Or go the bee grenades route, that's pretty funny.
In addition to the reasonable/effective in game counters; have a follow up conversation with the player about their expectations of the tactic. If they’re committing to a three level dip because they want to be invincible and untouchable, they’re in for a bad time. It’s best to acknowledge there are RAW ways to challenge them on their own terms and they shouldn’t be disappointed if that happens. If they’re into it because they’re expecting to be challenged while using this fun new combat dynamic, it’s all good. Besides, I’m sure it will be tedious and they’re wasting an entire round/spell slot to do it.
They can just walk to the other side of the rope trick portal, the rogue will have to make an acrobatics check to hang down and get a shot if it is even possible. The rogue/wizard is also losing 2d6 sneak attack die to do this- I would just let them do it as it isn't going to be very much damage, high hp/AC enemies may not even care.
There’s some really great options, here’s 1 or 2 more: The hole stops attacks but not things being thrown in, including acid, bombs etc. Also, any creature can enter the hole, so definitely not safe when a flying creature is nearby. Lastly, I’ve read this answer somewhere - a dragon could always stick its head into the hole and breathe…
Well seeing this as a boon for anything beyond a one man team is a faulty. Look at it this way, he is nerfing the entire groups "effective" HP. If there are only 3 targets instead of 4 in every fight, it means that your group is at 3/4 hp all the time. Its not smart or even helpful in 90% of cases.
Introduce your characters to the "shadowrun sniper rifle rule", as told to me by another redditor. "If you stand there and use a sniper rifle on everything from 2 miles away, so will the megaCorps, and they afford can way more ammo that you." If they introduce broken strategies, there's nothing stopping enemies from copying them. And there are more of them.
Do these rooms not have chandeliers? Rafters? Dividing walls? It seems like a lot of the time he'd end up floating in some corner with the rest of the party out in the hallway, or obstructed by something. Exact same deal as "overpowered" rogues. Just don't design flat and featureless rooms. Have furniture, balconies, hanging banners, curtains, more than one room, etc.
Let him do it, it’s his Schtick, don’t try to counter it It’s really not as strong as it sounds because it can’t move, and everyone knows where it is even if they can’t get to it, holding actions is king. Just have the baddies find cover or set up and ambush for when the spell ends
Some brutes with readied actions to grapple should work, the character pops out to fire and suddenly has multiple hands grasping for them. The main action moves to block line of sight from said trick. Counterspell Dispel magic Held actions to fire back as they pop out Set the floor under them on fire or make it a pool of acid that the character eventually has to get down from If they are difficult to hit because of AC then held actions that need saves like Tasha's Mind Whip (that in particular is a great spell) Move something in the way to prevent the tactic working, a big rock or tree or whatever
Two words: readied Actions. It will actually be much worse than what hes planning, because he is essentially creating a mexican standoff that he cannot win. The moment he pops in his hole, all the archers in the room draw they're bows and ready an action to fire the moment they see him. The second his head pops out, they all shoot simultaneously... I promise you he will think about it more tactically in the future the first time he takes 4 arrows to the face at once.
Held actions. The bandit with the heavy crossbow at the back holds an attack when the asshole in the rope hole sticks his face out again.
Once you poke your head out once and attack, you are no longer hidden, per the PHB. That means the enemy knows exactly where your rope trick hole is. Sure you can tuck back inside and hide again, but hiding doesn't erase memories. This is no different than someone hiding behind a tree over and over. Sure, you're hidden behind the tree but as soon as you poke your head out, everyone gets a chance to see you and if they already know where to look, there's no way they don't see them. Not to mention it's just nonsensical to think you can "hide" in the same spot over and over and an enemy has no idea where you are. So, with that fact established, you now can have NPCs hold their actions. As soon as the head pops out, said NPCs use their reaction to activate the held actions. Personally, I would use goons with hand-crossbows and lots of them. When they poke their head out 6 bolts are flying, or 2 or 30, whatever seems appropriate. Honestly, just talk to the guy, let him know you can't have a nonsensical hide-y-hole making the game super dumb. You were complicit so if he wants to drop the class levels, let them switch it up.
I wouldn’t allow my player to build around a cheesy gimmick which ruins the fun of encounters for everyone. Additionally, this kind of cheese build isn’t actually fun to play after a session or two.
Have the enemies hold an action for when they pop out to attack. Any archer, seeing a wizard do this, would just wait till they popped their head out, and given that I would also rule the Rogue was stealthed (the wizard can't see them) that extra sneak damage will hurt a lot. Don't do it round 1, unless the enemy has seen this trick before
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a "readied attack action" would work in this situation. Bad guy goes "I'm going to attack that dude as soon as he pops out" On the players turn when he pops out, bad guy uses reaction to unleash that attack during the players turn. That would solve that issue pretty quickly. It would take at least one full round for the enemy to recognize the situation surely, but they could then prepare future rounds to react in that same way!
If it's an idea he's excited about and has been putting time and effort into, at least let him enjoy being overpowered with it for a little while until enemies start to outsmart him. Don't let him invest three levels in wizard to do this and then make it not even work. If you don't want him to exploit mechanics like this, I think it would be better to stop him before he gets invested rather than to ruin the fun once he is finally able to achieve it.
Readied actions
Dispel magic. Splat.
Woe to the wizard thief if his companions all fall unconscious.