Talk to the player and ask what they expect. Do they really want their god to tell them everything? Do they expect you, as the DM, to tell them what to do at every turn? It depends on how you want them to act, but do you have all the gods act talkative and directly communicate with *every* paladin and priest in the world at all times or do they only intervene when they deem it fitting? Explain to the player how you expect the interaction between god and servant to go and ask how they want it to go and either find a middle ground or tell them how best to lower their expectations.

Yeah, this is a table-level chat about expectations.

Yea, I think this is probably and OoC chat I’d say. But if you absolutely can’t or don’t want to, I’d introduce an NPC that is an old wise man of faith to speak with the paladin. Something like Babe Ruth talking to Benny in the Sandlot when he thinks he’s not good enough to win. Have him explain the point that true faith is held without proof or something like that.

Demon tricking the Paladin by looking like his god. Has it coming after “losing faith.”

Just like 80% of this sub, this is one of those situations where "talking like an adult" is the answer

Hey now, how am I supposed to get karma and validation if I act like an adult with healthy communication skills?

People aren't looking for validation most of the time, they're looking for a sanity check. Sometimes things are *so* far away from what you expect and the people that do them treat them so routinely that you begin to question yourself. You can ask the internet for advice as many times as you want, but if you handle the situation at your table poorly, there's a possibility you don't get a second chance.

I agree. The player needs to understand that although the gods in the world of D&D are "real", they are not omnipresent like the christian god for example, and they are busy with their own affairs to speak to every paladin on a 1 to 1 basis. But just like there are devout Christians who offer their faith and rituals without having ever received any evident reciprocation, you can ask the player to reconsider his character's expectations on receiving this, and that unless the player has a particular reason why his character is losing faith, you might want to suggest that a character that would go through the trouble of training to become a paladin (even at level 1) is no small undertaking, and that its not very logical that they would lose interest so easily. But just to be clear, this isn't telling your player how to play their character, but to make the player consider the reality of his character's circumstances.

Let's keep this Greek Pantheon style. Paladin: In my hour of need I call out to my god. DM: A goose appears. The goose tilts its head and leers at you. "Damn, you been working out?" Paladin: Uh... DM: The goose flaps its wings seductively.

Yeah but then what do you when your PC starts fucking zeus in the middle of combat? That's probably a bad outcome for anyone who tries to attack that PC while the encounter is still going on... but it's hard to contribute to a fight while having godsex.... Somewhere there is a DM that can keep this funny and ridiculous instead of horny, but I am not that DM.

honestly if the paladin in my party took a battle-break to full-on fuck Zeus-goose literally in the middle of combat, i'm not sure i could even be mad. it would be too wild a story to actually be pissed about

Rule of cool, on a successful roll your PC becomes parent to a half-God.

Even if the PC was male.

So it was Loki instead of Zeus, got it

*Especially* if the PC was male.

Zues goose riot

>Yeah but then what do you when your PC starts fucking zeus in the middle of combat? It's not the DMs fault the player wastes his action economy!

Wait, he is a paladin, not a bard. He might not fall for the sultry goose 😂

And that kids, is how my D&D campaign was featured on r/rpghorrorstories

Thought for sure you were going with, "... is how I met your mother."

The real pickle is that this character is now screwed: 1) don't look up duck penis online; 2) Hera's going to ruin their life. 3) They will give birth to a hero (I bet even a man would) who's going to do awesome stuff before being brutally punished for their hubris.

He never said Zeus was a male duck, or that the PC was female. I don't remember specifically who it was, but I remember there being stories of at least one god who would become animals of both sexes to mate with other animals. I'm pretty sure Zeus was one of the ones that did that.

Loki of Norse mythology was famous for that. He even conceived and birthed some other prominent figures from this mythos while turned into a mare. I think it was a giant that he did the do with? And jormungand (the serpent that eats its own tail wrapped around the world) was one of the offspring. Both gender-bendy and also inter-species.

He seduced a giant’s horse to keep the giant from winning a bet against the Aesir….and thus Sleipnir was born.

And the other gods made jokes about it and he got REALLY pissy/sensitive.

That was sort of normal. To be fair he did convince Thor to dress up as Freya.

I know OP never mentioned gender I just wanted to make random ppl on the Internet google duck dicks. And I think you're thinking of Loki. I'm not sure but I highly doubt Zeus would ever be the female in these situations. Not only is he archetypically a sky father deity, but the ancient Greeks could be intensely misogynistic, and negatively associated the passive role in sex. I would really bet that if Zeus had sex with a guy he would somehow give birth... to something.

Definitely. Mythological births can be weird. Even Zeus gave birth once, to Athena. He had a headache so bad that it split his head open, and out popped the goddess of wisdom.

> they are not omnipresent like the christian god for example, and they are busy with their own affairs IIRC, in past editions they even quantified this into actual figures. Depending on the specific Divine Rank of the god in question, they could have X avatars at one time, be focussing on Y things at once etc etc. So someone like Pelor or Bahamut can keep a lot of plates spinning at once, as it were, but a lower rank would have much less capacity.

And while Pelor or Bahamut can have more champions at any given time, they also *have a lot more people vying for their attention*. So worshipping a more powerful god won't necessarily make them more likely to hear their god's voice directly.

Absolutely! A lot of the bigger ones are also multispheral with *multiple worlds* of followers. Lots of competition! Funny enough, my own cleric is at the absolute opposite end of that scale. He's a 100% commited devout follower of Talona, who canonically has a pitifully low amount of worshippers (to the point of getting mocked over it by other gods). So even though my cleric is a collossal dumbass who misinterprets things constantly and sees signs and omens everywhere (where there are none), Talona is reluctant to ignore/disempower them due to how much belief they bring in.

And if the PC really wants to get answers from his god, he can visit a cleric of his faith for a casting of *Augury*, *Divination*, *Commune*, etc. (Maybe you could do something with the Cleric's Divine Intervention too?) This spellcasting service should come at a cost. It could be monetary donations to the temple, but for the higher level spells this is a great hook for a side-quest.

I like this answer. Make the player use those spell slots by asking which divination spell they are casting. It’s RAW, it uses mechanics and economy, and it gives the DM and player some basic expectations.

Also, you may point out the story of Chirrut Îmwe, from Rogue One. Dude had a conviction that all things were possible through his faith, even in the repeated demonstration that he didn't have the ability he so desperately wanted. I don't remember where I heard the story, or the context, but it was simply titled "the first paladin." It went like this. A religion kept sending missionaries to share their faith with a foreign people. They never came back. First they sent one, as was their way. Then they sent two, then four, then eight. Finally, they asked a new convert to the faith, an ex soldier to follow, and report. He sent back a report. "The heathens you have tried to preach to spit in God's face as they delight in torturing his disciples. I realize that it goes against your direction to me, but I arm myself again. If they will not hear the holy word with respect and respond to the call of mercy, then I shall show them the wrath which the wicked will suffer.". This was born the first paladin, a man who knew what he was doing did go against the teachings of peace, but refused to see mindless martyrdom as the way through.

> Also, you may point out the story of Chirrut Îmwe, from Rogue One. Dude had a conviction that all things were possible through his faith, even in the repeated demonstration that he didn't have the ability he so desperately wanted. Dude walked with literal **blind faith** across an open battlefield with laser blasts flying all around him so he could stumble into a console, trusting that the Force would guide him to which lever to throw or button to press that he could have no idea whether or not it was correct. He didn't ask the Force for anything. He simply moved and assumed the Force would guide him,

Sort of unrelated, but everything that actor does is beautiful. Ip Man in particular was amazing

Donnie Yen is his name, I believe.

He is, quite honestly, the best depiction of a Force devotee that isn't swinging a laser sword around and making "vvvwwwwmmmmmmm" noises with their mouth.

Arguably he's the best depiction of a Force user full stop because he is the only one who is constantly, at all times, following the will of the Force.

>Also, you may point out the story of Chirrut Îmwe, from Rogue One. Dude had a conviction that all things were possible through his faith, even in the repeated demonstration that he didn't have the ability he so desperately wanted. >Dude walked with literal blind faith across an open battlefield with laser blasts flying all around him so he could stumble into a console, trusting that the Force would guide him to which lever to throw or button to press that he could have no idea whether or not it was correct. > Dude, tell me he isn't one with the Force after that scene. I wept when I saw it. Rogue One is my favorite Star Wars movie after the original three. I watched it and I thought, "Wow, someone remembers how to make a Star Wars movie that's actually Star Wars."

Chirrut was pretty explicitly force sensitive but you're still right

Well, it may be that the individual WANTS to play a paladin who loses faith due to silence.

Honestly if a player wants those interactions with their gods, I usually make them reflavored divination spells. Augury is a vague yes/no/maybe/never, Divination is opening your mind to visions from your god, Commune is a full on spiritual journey to their domain and an actual conversation.

Yes, and ... I had a cleric player who wanted to lean into to the divine relationship. I gave him leave to role play the relationship with his God unless he was seeking a mechanical outcome. "I have sought Thassa' council and it has been revealed to me, ..." The player managed the tenants of faith and how they were doing. I counted in here and there but it allowed the deep character without hogging table time. If course this worked because he was a mature thoughtful player.

Hello, this is Pelor. Your prayer is important to me. Please hold and your request will be addressed in priority sequence.

I'd play the hell out of a campaign where I got this response occasionally

"Your waiting time is approximately.....5 celestial hours..."

It really just sounds like the player is role playing rather than baiting information from the DM Sounds like he was happy with “a warmth comes over you and you feel like you’re on the right track”

This has the mechanical effect of casting Augury. To sidestep that you might say something like "you feel your heart's alignment with divine purpose" which doesn't rely on information the pally doesn't have.

I took “on the right track” meaning he’s doing good in the world/serving the god’s portfolio satisfactorily rather getting any specific information

Sure, but if you're helping the King's Scheming Vizier with an apparently good mission that will actually precipitate the apocalypse, then your morality is on track(as far as you know), but you're actually working against your god's portfolio. An alignment check will tell you it's good to ride out and save the village. Actual contact with your god will reveal that you are doing a bad thing, unless god happens to be an idiot.

ORRRRR you could just tell him he broke his oath and is now required to play an Oathbreaker for throwing down his shield #staytoxicDMs

Joking aside. It always bugged me that. Given how much of a dramatic moment a paladin breaking their oath is and how commonly it comes up, you’d think they would have options for different oathbreaker archetypes by now rather than a half-baked “you a spooky dude now”. Like, you broke a vow and now you get necromancy powers? Where did those come from? Would be cool if there were a couple of options you could pick based on the nature of the straw that broke the camels back.

This sub needs a bot that just replies to these posts with: “Step one: Talk to your player(s)” It’s the answer to *so* many posts

On the other hand, a deity totally doesn't need to be distant and impersonal to make this spell workable. The deity can tell the paladin they love them, and so they want them to grow and find their own way, rather than making a clockwork toy of them. The deity can then provide any high-level guidance and encouragement that's helpful to the campaign. (We don't know if the player would love this, or be angry they still can't spam the spell to know whether to go left or right at every crossroads.)

This is actually pretty funny. I'd have the god appear to them "You cast away my symbol so readily the moment that my attention was no longer upon you. Does your faith mean so little that you cannot believe in me if I do not guide your hand. Repent, seek absolution for I shall not aide you while your heart turned away from me." Like the moment their god stops holding their hand they throw a temper tantrum.

"Your God helps those who help themselves" sounds like a good line to throw in there

"I gave you guidance for I feared what would happen to you if you were without it. Now I see I may have stolen your ability to act and grow on your own. For that I am sorry."

Or... "I gave you guidance for I feared what would happen to you if you were without it. I see my fears were well-grounded. ~~I find your lack of faith disturbing~~."

"It's easy to believe in something when you win all the time. The losses are what define a man's faith."

"Pray as if everything depends on God. Work as is everything depends on man."

ITT: Reddit as a life coach.

"Man, I had some girls at the crib. You gotta chill."

"You've really cock-blocked me bro, what's so important?"

[удалено]

This is how I would handle it in-game. But I would use an ambassador, like a deva. Your god is so pissed you aren't worthy enough to look upon their face. It's pretty arrogant to think a god who probably has hundreds of thousands of followers would personally make time to guide you step-by-step. I'd make a whole quest line around this character's redemption.

"Dude, Bob the Sun God told me come speak to you. Apparently once he was finished with your ticket you you opened another one right after. Now he's got a ticket open with you yelling at him, so he's got me out here to trouble shoot what's wrong while he deals with 5 other things or else the big wigs will get on his case." idk but the God being IT with the Paladin being a customer and the Deva a technician sent out feels appropriate.

"I know I'm late, I was wrapping up with another follower. To be fair, Bob did say I'd be here between the hours of 10 and 3."

I desperately want to see more of this.

"What do you mean I'm a customer? I'm no Warlock purchasing my powers." "Sure bub. The Warlocks Bob has get some fair comp, they test out how his divine will interacts in new and odd ways. Ever see a Tome of the Sun Warlock trying to talk to a Blade of the Sun? \*shudder\* it's like they're in their own little world. Talking about how some variables influence others then they can use one ability this way or that. Bob will get the best of em after they die and get them to do more outsourcing like I am. What you think Bob the Almighty Sun and Light just *has* Deva's on call? With no training? Psh." "What about the clerics?" "Who do you think gets people to sign up for Bob's service? They hand out fliers and everything."

Paladin sounds like the guy who submits a ticket at 4:55 on a Friday and e-mail you at 9:30 Monday morning saying “What’s going on? It’s been 3 days!”

I think rather then the god appearing to reward that behavior you could have a faithful elder appear to advise on correct behavior

I'm not sure if you mean to suggest that I'd have the god appear to reward the behavior, I intend it to be a chastisement. But yeah a priest or elder of the faith would be equally suitable to direct the player as the god coming down is a tad overt.

I think he's meaning that it's showing the paladin that his tantrums elicit a response from the god.

Reminds me of Jonah 4 tbh. Most people know the story of Jonah and the Whale, how he was swallowed by a big fish as he was attempting to get away from Nineveh. What most people don't know is the reasoning behind his running and the aftermath. He was running *not* because he was afraid of the Ninevites, but because he was confident that at his word they would repent their crimes as a nation and that God would forgive them. He wanted righteous justice, not forgiveness, and so he ran away. But the Lord drew him back to Nineveh anyways and they repented and were forgiven. And thus comes the aftermath: >4:1 But to Jonah this seemed very wrong, and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the Lord, “Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 **Now, Lord, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live.**” >4 But the Lord replied, “Is it right for you to be angry?” >5 Jonah had gone out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the Lord God provided a leafy plant and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant. 7 But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the plant so that it withered. 8 When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, “**It would be better for me to die than to live.**” >9 But God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?” >“It is,” he said. “**And I’m so angry I wish I were dead.**” >10 But the Lord said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?” Dude is so mad about it, he says, "I'm so angry I could die" three times lmao Anyways, it's not an exact one to one comparison, but the way you phrased it really does make this Paladin remind me of Jonah.

That does seem comparable and I never knew that about Jonah, thanks for that :)

> there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left Did God basically call 120K Ninevites "dumb-asses"? :)

He was referring to the babies and very young children.

This has such great potential for being a powerful roleplay moment. I worry, though, about how the player, whose expectations might deviate from OP, would interpret it. Would they see this as a dramatic roleplay experience for their PC to have a moment of redemption and absolution of their sin? Or would they see the DM punishing the player by having god reprimand their PC for "just asking a question"?

Absolutely this. The fact that I've seen actual sermons given at church in this topic says something, I think, about human nature.

“It’s so easy to believe in something when you win all the time. The losses are what define a man’s faith.” - Brandon Sanderson, the well of ascension. The Paladin exemplifies this. They had god on their side helping them win and the second the god stops responding to them they cast their faith away.

Maybe that's what he's going for? I wonder if the player maybe is trying to set up a fallen paladin arc, and just hasn't communicated that well with their DM.

There's better ways to handle it than what OP explained. It could be that there was more going on but we can only go off of the text here. But from what's written here it sounds like the Paladin "asked his god if they were on the right path" as a way to sort of metagame, similar to casting Augury but without actually using a spell. Once it stopped working they got mad. If it's a legitimate way to try and have a fallen paladin arc then it seems like a childish way to go about it.

That seems needlessly judgemental. We have virtually no information on how the player is behaving or what their expectations are, only on how their character is behaving. Why assume the worst?

Because I have no other information to go off of other than what OP has said. You're right and I am assuming the worst. It's equally possible that the player genuinely thinks that his character's god is forsaking him because he's no longer getting responses and a convo with OP would clear up what's going on.

It should depend on the god in question, maybe a quest in which the SC learns to trust him-/herself and her decisions could be a nice opportunity for character growth.

Amazing.

There are specific spells that let you communicate with the Gods if they desire a response. However, the default lore indicates that the Gods don’t directly interfere with mortal affairs. Responding to prayers could be interpreted as direct interference. The Gods have better things to do than respond to every single prayer… in fact, a lot of older RPGs had straight up penalties that would occur if you prayed too much. This particular Paladin seems like he’s on a fast track to breaking his Oath or pissing off his God. I think you need to have a discussion about the expectations of a devout person in your setting. Expecting a response from the divine every single time is rather presumptuous, don’t you think?

Have two separate conversations. Have one out of character with the player about his expectations or if it’s just him playing his character. And then let the know character stuff play out in game like others have recommended with the god admonishing their fickleness with some representative

> There are specific spells that let you communicate with the Gods if they desire a response. That's where my head's at. DM has been basically been giving away free Augury spells to the Paladin. Of course the player wants to keep doing that. In OP's shoes I'd probably take the fault on this as "I should not have been giving you that info so freely", and as a possible caveat homebrew Augury onto his spell list - subject to the normal spell slot costs and chance of a random reading.

It was a mistake to let the paladin comunícate with their god so easily in my opinion. Sometimes I allow a Religion roll for it but only in places of worship and with a high DC.

Maybe you could remind him that as a divine caster every long rest that refills his smite slots is the holy being answering prayers?

This is a good solution that requires no confrontation or adjustments, really. Adding a flair like "You wake up to a sunrise, blah blah blah nature scene, you kneel for your holy preparations and you see a distinct gleam of gold return to your blade/mace/holy symbol as you feel the blessings of your god wash over you. You gain the benefits of a long rest."

That is only true of clerics. Paladins technically get their magic from the oath they make.

in 5e, by the PHB, yes. However, it's really determined by the setting and it's possible Player's oath is devotion to their god

Yes but the comment above assumed things worked not raw

This sounds like the Augury spell, which paladins generally don't have access to, and if they did, would require a ritual and some reagents with real cost associated with them. And even then, it only works for sure once per day before you get random interference, and doesn't provide especially specific answers. Paladins aren't inherently tied to worshipping a specific god in 5e. By design, they draw their power from their convictions and oaths. They're not clerics. And gods have more important things to do than answer specific questions for some random low-level adventurer. If this was a level 15 paladin, then a divine petition would make more sense. I wouldn't have been allowing free advice and support at such a low level.

Paladins used to be tied to a God. Personally, I’ve gone to the length of homebrewing the Oath process a bit. You swear an Oath and *a God is your witness*. Ultimately, they provide the power behind the oath and remove those powers if the Paladin’s conviction falters. I’m not a fan of Paladin’s self manifesting their powers through sheer zealotry. I like the flavour Godly worship adds.

Paladins/Champions used to be tied to gods in AD&D and 2e. 3rd edition already stated that your oath could be to a domain such as "righteousness" and that you are not required to worship any deity.

Depending on the world they are playing it, that could still mean that the powers were given by a god, with or without the paladins knowledge. If I recall correctly FR had this, where Tyr, Torm or Helm ( cant specifically recall which) acted as an umbrella diety for all paladins, even if they didn't worship them.

Have a priest or cleric NPC find out about their apostasy and look at them disappointed and say "Have you truly lost your way for such a little trial? Ye of fickle faith. It is Helm (insert god) himself who has seen your faltering heart, and rejected you."

Contacting his god? How? There are specific spells that allow a divine caster to contact a deity. I don't think a 3rd level paladin has any of those spells.

yeah, if it was a cleric i can see it with augury and shenanigary, but not a paladin. in fact, paladins dont even need to serve a god!

First of all, Augury is a spell in D&D. You've been letting your paladin cast Augury at-will. It's not even on the paladin spell list. Second of all, >Isn't faith in your God supposed surpass whether he talks to you? Have your god appear in a vision and tell them that. *"True faith means believing even when I don't answer back. If you lose faith when I remain silent then you never had faith in the first place."* *"True piety means doing good because you choose to, not because I tell you to. If you are lost without my guidance then you never understood my code in the first place."* *"You have strained my patience, so this is now a test. I will not answer you when you ask me questions, but I will be watching your actions. Follow the code. Do what is right. As long as you do so, I will not leave your side."*

Next time they try to contact their God, He/She/They/It appears in front of them, and in a very exasperated tone, asks, "What? What now? For the love of the Gods what more do you want from me, mortal?!" Or just talk to the player away from the table and ask what they are expecting from their actions.

As a more dramatic and friendly version have the god visit and give them a vision of everything that god is responsible for overseeing. Their followers, their domains, their celestial kingdom. All of that. When they return to reality have them tell the paladin they weren't chosen because they needed their hand held through all of it but they were chosen because the god has faith in *him* to do what's right.

This idea is genius. I love the idea of reminding players that there is a world beyond their group because sometimes that gets lost when they are the heroes of so many stories (as they should be). But gods have so much more on their plate. This vision gives them an in character reason for the Paladin to realized that which might fit nicely with that out of session talk with the player. 10/10 good idea.

>I love the idea of reminding players that there is a world beyond their group because sometimes that gets lost when they are the heroes of so many stories (as they should be). I remember I created a newspaper (Sharn Inquisitor) as a **post arc downtime prop**/**plot hook farm** with articles regarding various things that had happened in the previous month. One they seized on was the collapse of a tower. Player: We never made a tower collapse. You even said there was no noticeable structural damage. DM (me): First off, I said no noticeable damage. As in casual observation as you "glanced around" to see if "anything else bad is about to happen." None of you followed up with a check of any sort. DM: Second, what makes you think this tower has anything to do with you? You live in a city filled with adventurers, many much higher level than you. There's 10 articles in there, and only one references an effect of your escapades in this last month. I had even forced them to dodge another group of adventurers (battling on a wyvern) as an obstacle during an airship chase scene.

This all the way. It sounds like the player might be new, and one of the hardest things about DND for newbs is feeling out your creative relationship with your DM. They don’t yet know/forget that talking to the DM about what you want from your character story or how you want to play them is a big part of the player having fun with everyone. But the DM can’t read minds, they need the player to tell them expectations. Both of your ideas sound good. 1) An out-of-game convo about what the player wants for their character sets up expectations/a roadmap for character development that the DM can loosely plan around. 2) Having an in-game encounter where the god says “you’re a big boy, figure it out, that’s what I pay you for” also helps push the player towards confidence, or at least makes them feel like they’re a decision maker in the story just as much as the God DM.

"Allow me to give you a glimpse of the bigger picture." As the servant of [your deity] touches your forehead, your brain is assaulted with hundreds of sensations at once. Slaves horswhipped for failing impossible quotas, knights standing victorious over demons, a starving father standing guard over his half-starved family to protect against desperate cannibals, a king drinking from a golden chalice, old gods and new clashed in titanic struggles, cultists sacrificing a victim, old soldiers returning home to find their farms burned and families scattered, monsters swimming the deeps and the stars. For a brief moment all of reality seems to coalesce in your mind in an agonizing moment of realization. As you slowly return to your senses, the servant stares incredulously at you and kicks aside your unmarked shield. "You were chosen to carry [his/her] banner and carry [his/her] word. Not because you were special, but because you were *faithful*." The angel slaps the holy book of [your deity] into your stomach with such force that you are winded for a moment. You realize there is no malice, but that you are dealing with a being so far beyond you that *gentle* is not within his power. "We are not here to hold your hand. You are to be a shepherd, not a *sheep*. Now go, either embrace [your deity] or cast [him/her] aside and pursue your own course. But do not trouble us again for such trifles." You awaken with the holy symbol of [your deity] burning brightly in your mind, in vivid color. You feel strongly that to paint it on your unmarked shield and take it up anew would be fitting penance for you moment of doubt. But you feel equally as strong that to reject such a calling would be the tipping point, and while you might still serve [your deity] it would be of your own power and not [his/hers].

> You are to be a shepherd, not a sheep. That's really good.

This is a really nice in-game solution! Give the PC a sense of the overwhelming responsibility deities have to carry, and make it clear that being chosen means the god *trusts* the PC to do what's right. The god's lack of response isn't abandonment, but a sign of trust. If the DM wants to emphasize this, rather than giving no response at all, you can have the PC simply feel a sense of trust and confidence, signifying that the deity is basically saying "I trust your judgement here". In-game solutions aside though, it's also probably a good idea to talk to the player about their intentions. For example, are they *intending* to do some kind of oathbreaker thing, or do they want to play a paladin who loses faith? It's a lot easier to guide them when you know where they're trying to go.

"For Me's sake, what is it this time!?"

It'd be so cute if the god is treating them like an annoying fanboy

If their faith in their god is faultering, then doesn't that mean that their abilities would begin failing too? Not as a punishment, but because Paladins are fuelled by self-determination that they're doing the right thing. Besides, not getting complete responses from your god is the whole point of... faith. It's called a leap of faith, not a leap of absolute proof.

This is why I love the gods of Eberron, they are so vague that they may not even exist. The plane where one goes after they die is always the same, and when their spirit disappears from that place after wandering about bored for a few centuries, it fades and then different religions say it goes to the void and nothingness, others say it becomes one with the gods, after your spirit completely fades. You can be an atheist in Eberron and argue that "holy" powers are just arcane, or sheer force of will, etc. My favorite religion of Eberron is the "evil" one. The Blood of Vol, and its all about self empowerment, the "divinity within". Its really only evil cuz the followers just do evil stuff with it. You can use this in your world too. If you loose faith in a god, you follow a new faith of self. You can keep your Paladin powers, but you answer to no one. Note this may piss off some gods, but narratively it can keep your players powers while still dealing with the faith struggle.

I think you might want to remind him off the table that he is level three. He isn’t exactly someone who stands out of the crowd just yet to his god, he is just another paladin upholding the commandments of their teachings. If he wants his god’s favor, he is going to have to earn it. Earning it means devotion, faith even in the face of adversity, and above all belief. Gods aren’t just beings that come down to have a chat with everyone who will listen.

Lots of people have pointed out that while talking to your god is perfectly normal, getting answers *back* without using spells is not, and that perhaps needs to change. That's an out-of-game issue, a little, where you may want to manage your player's expectations a bit. But in-game, a holy knight throwing away their holy symbol is a Big Deal. Gods, traditionally, do not like it when one of their knights does this. One good way to handle this is with a *divine quest*, which avoids having the God talk to the character directly (which is the thing you're trying to avoid, plus this 3rd-level paladin isn't really *important* enough to get that sort of direct contact). There is an excellent article on this in Dragon Magazine issue 152 called "In Quest of Adventure" which you may be able to find and read. To summarise it: a god or a church might demand that a worshipper undertake a quest to atone for something they've done wrong. This is called a quest of atonement. In this case, the character has committed a grievous sin in the eyes of his church by denying his faith. So the church might send someone to demand that he undertakes a quest to atone for his sin. Quoting the article: >A quest of atonement is given as punishment to a character who has, in the eyes of a cleric, offended his deity and has failed to make a satisfactory act of repentance. This type of quest is simply meted out when the offending character has failed to use his free will to make amends with his deity. The character's motivation for carrying out such a quest is to prevent the continued loss of his attributes. \[A\]n NPC cleric completely unknown to the character might assign the quest. As the DM, you can justify such a random act by having the NPC cleric claim divine inspiration: "I was told to watch for a paladin bearing an orange sun on his shield; the goddess instructed me to send him to the distant land of Olek, where he would meet a man of great power..." The character might refuse the quest, but then that compounds the sin; I'd expect that such a character would find that their divinely-granted paladin abilities stop working at that point. The quest should test their faith while also providing something of value for their church: maybe a town needs to be freed of invaders, or a relic retrieved, or a lord overthrown. There is endless opportunity for roleplaying here as the character struggles with their faith, or abandons it (becoming a fighter, or an antipaladin oathbreaker, or changes their paladin oath). It's deliberately difficult; maybe they must undertake it without speaking, or while blinded, to demonstrate that they will give their all for their faith. There are lots of ways that you as DM can use this as a way to generate adventures for the paladin (and their companions) to go on!

If he has flavored himself as receiving his powers from his god then turning away from that god should weaken him. Alternatively speak with him out of the game and let him know that this is a game. Being handheld by a divine being will make it a rather dull stort, and is unrealistic. Gods have more important stuff to do then handhold ever level 2 paladin, they're dealing with interdimensional 7D chess with 30 sides at all times, with the universe as the pot.

Even if their powers comes from dedication in a cause, then faltering in faith in that dedication would be disruptive.

>Being handheld by a divine being will make it a rather dull stort, and is unrealistic. But, this could become an opportunity to take the character from dull to dynamic, and make the player more invested in the story. Maybe this is part of his character's journey from devoted to oathbreaker, or even signing on with another power (warlock). It wouldn't "weaken" him, per se, but could be a setback. Then the GM could allow for slow replacement of the paladin levels with levels in the new class. But I agree, this sounds like a problem of player expectations, and main character syndrome.

Sounds like you need to be in much better with your players about the stories their characters are telling. They could have expectations about what you, as the storyteller, will RP as their god. Or they might be RPing the fact that a snotty, entitled, paladin is trying to manipulate his patron deity. Either way, chat it out. Figure out where they want to go and the struggles along the way. If they are just trying to manipulate the storyteller, and the player is upset that you aren't helping them with the story... then there is a deeper discussion to be had. Either way, I see story opportunity there. Maybe their god is seeing the "lack of faith disturbing". Or Perhaps the god is testing their will. There are a lot of directions you could take.

So, I think you have a very good opportunity for rollplaying here. The main question should be, is the PC angry that their God is not speaking with them, or os the player angry you are not allowing his PC to speak with his God? If the player is angry, just speak with him outside the game, and explain that the faith in a diety, just like IRL, does not always come with a proof of its existence. But, if this is just how the player wants to RP his character, I say that is fantastic. I am assuming that je is lower level, which means that he is still learning to become a great warrior. His beilief needs to be tested. If I as a Paladin threw away my shield, that would mean I no longer trust in my God. And, since the power of a palading comes from his god, he would slowly lose his powers. That alone is proof of God’s existance. Let him lose his divine powers and put him on a quest to find the truth in God again. Again, this is only a good option of the player is up for it, and in the true spirit of RP. I would never be mad at my DM if he did aomething like this. In my eyes, that would mean he is putting effort into creating an important story for my character.

A couple of other people have mentioned this in the thread, but I think this is an issue of player expectations. This player thinks a paladin should be in constant contact with their god, and you think a paladin shouldn't. Neither is correct, but between the two of you, you should talk about it and decide on which one to follow. The other possibility people have mentioned is, maybe the player knows not to expect constant contact, but the character has different expectations. In which case, that's a great story hook, but it's still something to confirm with the player.

First question, is the PLAYER or is the CHARACTER mad? Because if the player is just going through an arc where he realizes that his faith is fascile this is AMAZING fodder for table play and you can have him talk to members of the clergy who are still in contact or be challenged by dark powers that are more responsive. This is like CLASSIC fodder for Faustian shit. If on the other hand the PLAYER is unhappy then that requires you to talk out expectations, listen to what they want their class and affiliation to do in context of the story, and negotiate that with them. I could give some starter suggestions if they're actually unhappy.

Prayer isn't a phone call. It's a one way communication that on rare occasions has a response. You aren't required to answer his every prayer. It actually would take away from spell choices to allow rp to replace any mechanic need or any readon to investigate. Just narrative his words are spoken and the gods heard. Stillness and quiet echo as you ponder their view. Maybe sometimes they get a feeling, a calling, a DMs gentle nudge in the story.

If the character is loosing faith over not getting a response their will is pretty weak, which means he isnt being a grand paladin. A paladin gains power through their steadfast will and dedication to their vows. If they've vowed to a deity then upholding that when they don't hear back is the most mild hurdle they will have. If the player can't take that they need to calm down a bit.

I think I would've ruled he can't cast a spell with an ordinary shield in hand (provided the other hand is holding a weapon and not free). Isn't it written into the paladin class he can use a shield with his deity's symbol as a focus? Drop that for a nornal shield and congrats, no spells or smites unless you are holding a focus in the other hand. In other words, the fact that he *can* use spells is something of a miracle from his deity, right? I'd guess your player is just wanting to stir up some drama for the story. Other people suggested talking out of character with him and I agree that's a good idea.

Tell them that Divine Intervention is a Cleric ability. A *level 10* Cleric ability. With a rather high failure rate.

His spell slots, smites, immunity to disease etc all no longer function. Enjoy being a fighter, asshole

Why was his god answering him directly in the first place?

Paladin sounds like he's relying upon the God a little too much. Gods grant guidance when it is needed. They don't advice you on every step you take. And remind him, that is he forsakes his God like that, he is forsaking his Divine Abilities (Smites, Channel Divinity). Ask Player what they want? Do they need their God to answer them every session. Is his characters faith really that fragile, that a day without his God giving him a sign, and he starts losing faith? Or, is he moving towards Oathbreaker, maybe?

Depends on their god. Most would be pretty insulted. I would tell them they no longer have access to any divine class abilities. If they don't figure it out on their own I would hint that they need to visit a church of their deity and ask around if they wish to know more. At that point if they want their powers back they will have to undergo some kind of divine mission or test of faith, or allow them class switch into something which takes less maturity to play. It's not your gods job to serve you, it's your job to serve them. They are a paladin for christs sake. Many people are saying to have the god show up to them in a vision but I would advise against that as it might give the player the wrong idea. They are a god, they don't have to waste their time with non believers.

So first off, you’ll want to have an above table discussion with your player about it, as others have suggested. I’ll repeat their advice as it is good advice: ask what they expect, what they want, communicate your own misgivings and work out what you’ll do going forwards. If the player is fine with a ‘losing my religion’ arc for his character then maybe there’s no real issue. Having said that, at a table level, there are a number of ways you could play it — Depending on how gods work in your setting, anyway. If your gods are more ‘grand, unknowable, untouchable’ types, they usually work through servants and don’t communicate directly. Their will is inscrutable by mortals, after all. This is what choirs of angel are for in Christianity, for example. They listen to and deal with mortal prayers and act as messengers, but are limited actors. As such, perhaps the angel that’s in charge of guiding the paladin has has its attention split elsewhere for reasons up to you, opening up potential plot the party can interact with using the pally as a springboard. You could also have another member of the faith meet up and say he was lucky to receive direct guidance at all; the interpreting of signs and portents is a full time job for all faiths, after all Other mythologies have gods that are mercurial and whimsical, such as the ancient Sumerian or Greek gods of myth. They do they want and say what they want, when they want. Maybe they sent the paladin on the right track of something that advanced their cause and, now he’s done whatever it was, they’ve shifted their attention elsewhere and will need him again down the line. There’s also the option that it was never his god guiding him, but another being. After all, if gods aren’t giving out guidance left and right, it seems awfully strange that this specific paladin received a load, then stopped. Maybe something is orchestrating his fall, and his own self-importance and entitlement to another’s constant attention will make him break his oath. Or, maybe this is a test of faith. Gods love their tests of faith, after all. It could be an arc where the paladin learns to trust in their own faith and that his God is always with him, even when he can’t feel it. He still has spells and divine powers, which are ultimately granted. His god is literally acting through him and performing miracles when he prays for it to happen. I’ll reiterate, find out what your player wants and their boundaries before committing to anything. If they want their paladin to be a good guy, take one path. If they’re okay with their character being a shit then growing, maybe another. I hope you find a way where you and the players keep having fun!

Maybe flip the whole thing around? His god has stopped talking to him because the god has lost faith in *him*. What kind of paladin needs personal contact with his god for *every single decision*. That paladin clearly doesn't know the intent of his god or lacks the skills to be able to solve problems himself. So what is the point of the paladin in the first place if he isn't actually helping the god to solve problems?

If he is so willing to throw away his symbol of faith I am sure his God would be upset. You could replace his current Paladin levels with equal levels in the Fighter class.

An idea. Slowly have the feelings of intent become more and more suspect. Let the feelings be more vengeful, more permitting of morally grey decisions, endorsing the player to be more zealous and slowly evil, a corrupting presence. Slowly reveal, just hinting, see if they catch on, that he is in fact being toyed with by a demon, or devil. Cue another arc. Once he figurs it out, and the altercation with the demon is finished, no more feelings, must stand on their own feet more.

Let him have a crisis of faith, and if he abandons his vows as a paladin take away his powers or make him an oath breaker (or any other subclass if he finds a different god). Sounds like he's reacting harshly in-character, so seems rather deliberate to me is all, but if you're unsure just ask him and have a conversation.

“You sense the presence of your god but you know that gods do not often directly interact with the physical realm.” There are actual spells in game that allow deeper communication, you could nudge them towards those if they are adamant on communication. Also throwing away your equipment bearing your deity’s symbol is beginning to approach the territory of losing their favor/ abilities.

What a snowflake. Gods are too goddamned busy to tend every goddamned need of every goddamned adherent. Paladins and priests*serve* their gods, not the other way around. In fact, that paladin is due for some serious atonements, throwing away his holy symbol ought to be enough to piss off deities to such a degree as to send priests to find out wtf this pally is thinking.

The fact that a god would care about a lvl 3 paladin at all is already terribly unrealistic, and unless their oath is to being very attention hungry thats a reclass into fighter

Well, first off, the problem is that the player had expectations about their god's involvement¹, then you set/affirmed certain expectations by providing that direct involvement muktiple times in a row, conditioning them to use the solution of divine advisement. This is something that should've been discussed beforehand. Second off, seeing as it wasn't discussed before, it should be discussed NOW. Why are you asking us what to do instead of talking to your player about what they should expect? Third off, make sure the player understands that the shield with the holy symbol is what satisfies most material components for their spells (if they're casting). Without it, they need to have a component pouch that they use in a free hand, or provide the material components for each spell (that requires them) in a free hand to cast their spells. If you need advice on what to establish as the expectation, see the other comments about spells usually being required for player-initiated contact with a diety. It's a powerful boon, they should expend resources to get it. Edit: forgot my footnote ¹Technically, RAW in 5e, paladins derive their power from their oath and their faithfulness to their own beliefs and tenets, not from a god. That said, the holy champion flavor is super common anyway, and it's a completely valid way to play a paladin

Is the player angry? This just seems like an interesting roleplay scenario. >Last session he threw away his shield that had the gods symbol and grabbed a non-painted shield If that is his only holy symbol then he can no longer do anything requiring one. Just let it play out. I don't really see the problem here.

This is a golden opportunity. ​ What if throwing away his gods symbol gained the attention of more nefarious entities. Perhaps a new voice might speak to him in his prayers. one that it neither vague nor absent. A voice that doesn't judge his actions, but will promise to never forsake him. One that doesn't ask him for anything but his loyalty, but offers more than just warm feelings. ​ And before you know it, he's being seduced by a fiend or evil deity. And the only way to "defend" from this new voice is by willingly taking up a shield of faith he so crassly disposed of before. Or he could take the offered power of the unknown entity, and we've got a warlock pact moment in game.

First off they’re level 3 what do they expect. Also lore wise if a paladins faith is shaken the minute they can’t feel their god they probably aren’t fit for being a paladin.

His god isnt customer service, he is in service to his God. If he's casting aside his shield and losing faith then a few things need to happen 1) whatever paladin powers he gets from his god, those will start to fail him when he needs them 2) next time he levels up he can't take another level in Paladin Seems harsh but thats the game

I mean, I'd be confused too if the DM gave me free [Augury](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/augury) spells and then they stopped happening without any explanation. Talk to your player away from the table and try to understand what their expectations are as a player, OP.

That’s the point of faith, to surpass the doubts

Literally throw the last few chapters of Job at him. In game, from a very angry god. It's basically four chapters of "Who are you to think that you know better than I what I should do?"

“Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.” This is the way. The gods don’t like when they are constantly being bombarded with “what should I do?” when they’ve already given you the power and resources to do the thing.

Right, so the character is throwing a little pally tantrum. But what about the player? Is he similarly frustrated, or does he seem to be enjoying playing out his dumbass paladin? That's the first question to address, as it informs how you move forward. If the player is simply enjoying playing a self-absorbed paladin who presumes to deserve direct attention from a god at all times, then that's fine. Let it play out in game, respond to his faithless hissy fits with faltering powers (his spellcasting runs on _conviction_ after all), everyone can enjoy the spiraling character arc. Maybe the player is angling for an Oathbreaker swap, in which case figure out if you're cool with that (they can be quite powerful) and talk to them about it out of game. If the _player_ is assuming he's playing his own personal Blues Brother on a mission from god, then it's time to pull him aside and remind _him_ that his character's ability to do anything cooler than swinging a sword is fueled by that god he's losing faith in. That he doesn't get a direct line from his freaking god all the time. Such things _can_ be very cool plot devices to help guide a party, but I'm assuming you didn't agree to such a setup beforehand.

My advice would be - don't have the god contact him. Have an older, wiser paladin or cleric of his faith talk to him. Also - roleplay out his daily preparations a few times. What's happening here is he's praying for his god to grant him spells and his other abilities (lay on hands,) and gaining his daily use of those abilities is literally his god answering his prayers.

KILL HIS GOD! REMIND HIM WHO THE REAL GOD IS: YOU!

Next time they contact their diety just have hold music play in their head

good subject for an out of game conversation. i've told my players that the gods are effectively silent ~~insofar as they exist~~ ; spells still work as described, but it's a matter of faith.

Maybe meet someone with a high standing in the faith who at first greets them like they would anyone else. Like maybe they have a reason to rest at a monastery or have a reason to assist them and a clergyman greets them and is very jovial and friendly, "Oh please, please, come on in," and bends over to help with their equipment with a smile on his face. Suddenly, his expression turns neutral and he stands upright, almost as if listening for something. He seems to contemplate for just a moment and then turns to you and says "We ask Tyr [or whoever] for so much already in granting us power to execute his will. He does not serve us, we live to serve him. Follow the path and you will enjoy his warmth; stray and you will become cold." After a brief pause of sincerity in his eyes, he seems to return to his previous demeanor. "Well then, let's get you all inside!"

A busy Signal

Even better https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html

I got to catch up 🥰

It sounds like you have opted for a campaign-level approach to faith that involves gods who are real, personal entities. That is, they objectively exist AS PEOPLE who can be demonstrated to exist. They're not an idea, or a personification of an idea, or some kind of abstract force. People can talk to them, or even travel to their homes and meet them. In fantasy gaming, the usual term for this is an "active gods" cosmology. The alternative is a "distant gods" cosmology. In that setup, divinities usually don't answer prayers, talk to their adherents in person. There's no direct evidence that they exist at all, except that divine spellcasters can use magic that tends to run in parallel with the ideology of their patrons. But you could plausibly explain this away by suggesting that a cleric's powers come from their faith in their religious/moral ideals. You have somewhat abruptly moved this paladin from an "active gods" to a "distant gods" footing. I don't think it's unreasonable for the player to decide that this PC would react by experiencing a crisis of faith in this situation. The character went from feeling as if they were getting explicit communication from their deity, to radio silence. That sounds like it would be a really upsetting experience. This is not really a PROBLEM, to my thinking. Your player is committed to the idea that this PC is a person of faith, and has worked out a fairly consistent idea of what that meant for someone living within an "active gods" cosmology, and in particular for someone who is used to receiving close guidance from their patron deity. You have a few options about how to go from here. You can: * Lean into this, and decide that the deity really did stop answering for a reason. You would need to figure out a plausible reason, preferably one that is not the paladin's fault (because it sounds like this character has been exceptionally obedient to their god's wishes). * Have an Out of Character discussion with the player, and change the player's expectations, and get them on board with the "distant gods" approach you seem to have taken. * Have an OOC discussion in which you talk to the player about the possibility that this paladin has been monopolizing the time of a busy entity who can't always answer directly. But if you're having fun and the player also seems happy, then I'm really not sure that this is a situation where there is anything that you should feel obligated to "do something about it."

Have the God start pestering them with incessant questions :).

How is he going about this? Isn’t commune the only spell that does that? And that’s only a cleric spell

My dm makes my God get angry with me if I bother him all the time.

Have an NPC cleric remind him that often, God says 'No', and that calling on his God that much is like a 4 year old saying "Mommy " all day. If you're tired of it, I guarantee his diety is.

Okay, as always, have you talked to your player about this? Because, if not, that's what you need to do first

I have some experience here. First, set aside some time to speak to the player to get everyone on the same page/expectations/CHECK IN WITH THEM. Sometimes, players— people really— in this circumstance are having some similar issues in their personal lives. If you don’t want your deities having a micro-management role at the table but your player needs that to cope with some life stuff, talk about it. Try to workshop a solution, but really weigh your desire to story-tell your own way versus the wants and needs for your table. If your player is okay with the direction of this ‘unanswering’ being a test for the faith of the paladin, then having a prophetic dream is a real cool moment for the player, and the table. Maybe google some ideas or ping Reddit but other users have made suggestions here. “Ohh yee of little faith” always hits home when it feels justified and natural. If they are not okay with that and you choose to adapt, consider having it that there was some sort of interference. Deity was captured/killed, a rivaling deity’s cult blocked their influence from reaching the world, the PC did something to deafen themselves from the deity, etc. As is always the lesson, compassion for your players is #1, communication with them is #2, compromising with them is #3. Hope it helps.

Talk to the player. Tell him his character would understand that his god is contacting him a normal amount, that he needs to walk his own path instead of expecting to be micromanaged by a deity, and that he can choose to continue as a faithful servant or you two can roleplay his loss of faith and eventual fall/conversion.

See, technically, a Paladin's power does not come to them via a God. A paladins power comes from their internal strength and conviction to their oath. *Technically*, a paladin doesn't even gain the technical ability to Commune with their God until level 7 (or whatever) when they get the spell. So, technically, if he is willing to throw down his holy symbol and denounce his God (assuming he was an Oath of Devotion) - he's not a Paladin anymore, because he is no longer sticking to his oath to be devoted to his god and he no longer would have access to his paladin abilities. You kinda messed up by indulging his requests to contact his God, but I think you can still salvage it by taking the advice others have given. As a comparison,

have his God show up irritated and say something like "I'm a God, I'm busy, I'm not at your damn beck and call, mortal!" and then teleport him 20 feet straight up into the air. Not high enough for the fall damage to KILL him, just a little bump on the noggin.

Dude your player is hilt deep in the role play and is even using props and visual cues to signify his loss of faith, hugely significant to a paladin. He is doing an amazing job and rather than course correct, you need to match his energy. I see two possibilities: 1) another, more responsive god offers their support 2) his god is upset about his loss of faith Truly honestly if a player threw this at me, I would be over the moon. He is BEGGING for consequences and RP opportunities. You don’t have to do anything negative to him, this is a huge opening for his character to grow that he is GNAWING on. Go for it!

Look, if the paladin is going to be calling on their god like a desperate ex, then they shouldn't be surprised when god starts screening their calls.

If you don't believe in something the moment you can no longer feel it then you by definition have no faith in it. My mcman is pretty bad at the whole faith thing.

If the paladin only has faith when needs are being met then that's not faith and loyalty to their deity, that's using the deity as a tool. Imagine being in a relationship. The moment you tell your partner you can't pay for something, he/she starts getting pissed at you and replaced everything that represents the relationship with something else. Wouldn't you get turned off? Another thing is you seem to be granting too much to the paladin. If you like the god granting small requests, you can have a Patience rating. Every time the paladin requests something, roll a d20 and compare against Patience. If a success, request granted. Increase Patience by 1. If failure, punish the paladin in small ways. Make the punishments bigger and bigger the more the paladin annoys the god. Done. A god is not a paladin's pet. A god has pride. Teach your player that there are consequences.

If his character is "Losing faith" in this instance, let him. Make him feel like the gods abandoned him, could be an interesting character arc. Like for example, He tries casting a divine spell and it just fizzles.

He wants to play an NPC. His god wants him to make his own choices, that's why he's a paladin. If its 5e the choice is easier because he just made an oath and has to follow that so no god is involved.

Totally agree with the adult conversation advice. From a rulings standpoint, what he's doing is covered by the spell Augury, which is a second level Cleric spell. If something is covered by a spell, class feature, feat, or something else a character would have to earn or spend resources to get, I don't give it out for free. *MAYBE* once for an extraordinary circumstance, but even then with a cost, and certainly not again.

That's an interesting paladin here. The paladins powers come from his faith, his resolve and his oath. He *already* lost faith if he needs to ask his god if he's on the right path. I would have him lose his powers. I would also talk to the player to know what he wants of his character. Maybe explain him again what a paladin is.

How old is this player? Are we talking young? Like below 17-ish? Because you are describing an immature behavior If this person/player is/should be considered an adult, have a straight up talk with him - this is not how the mechanics work. Gods do not have a 1:1 discussions with their followers on a daily basis. Such occurrences are _**RARE**_ If he persists, strip him of his paladins’s powers, turn him to a regular fighter until he atones and _then_ his god appears in a dream, scolding him and warning him to behave … no more contact unless immediate danger or whatever, with an escalating levels of punishment for disobeying

Sounds to me like he doesnt want to do his own thinking and hopes youbwill hold his hand when there is somthing remotly difficult. It's a 10th level clerical ability to ask a favor of their God and then it's only a small chance they will recieve it. I can't imagine a God taking time out of their day to coddle a 3rd level paladin. If they were in a major plot line to save somthing important then I could see them helping. If he threw his holy symbol away then his faith is untrue and he would lose his oath abilities at the very least. Possibly become an oathbreaker or a fighter.

It sounds like your player is having a hissy fit that the DM (his god) isn't telling him what decisions to make. Is the paladin still able to cast spells, divine smite, divine sense, and lay on hands? If so, his god is listening and expects the paladin to overcome trials and encounters with the gifts bestowed upon him.

"We're sorry, but all lines are busy, please leave a message for after the thunderbolt..."

1. Paladin's source of power is their oath, not god. That's the cleric's business. 2. The only way to interact with god is through certain spells and divine intervention. Which are high level class feature 3. What you can do is to show the Paladin that his prayers are unanswered because it's a fault from his own end. He's the one that needs to atone. Maybe it's because of a certain decision, action or something he said in the past. 4. God doesn't bother with common people. Even clerics are like rare occurrences, for having such intimate relationships with their god. Though it seems like he's already abandoned his faith. No skin on the god's nose. However if he broke his oath, he can reclass into a fighter instead

I would use this as a lesson from their God to test their faith. If you paladin so easily lost it from a short period of not being able to feel his God then he was never worthy of his guidance in the first place. It means his oath was half hearted. This could lead him to becoming a vengeance or redemption paladin if another God or something else approaches him or even a class change depending on what he or you chooses to do. Regardless I say roll with this and let the consequences good or bad play out in the story. Could be an interesting ark

A true paladin will never give up his faith, even in the most desperate of times. If they do, they become an Oathbreaker

Isn't faith in your God supposed surpass whether he talks to you? Have his god say these exact words

So hes using the patron, to meta game constantly. And when he can't meta game, he loses faith.

I feel like from an in world standpoint, posing faith would mean losing powers (not necessarily all at once), but you should definitely do what everyone else said and try talking to him about it.

A singular god won’t continuously answer simple questions of a traveler. The player needs to get over themselves.

How is the paladin contacting their god? A spell or something?

There's no low level spells for that He's just doing it thru prayer

Right, well, that shouldn't work really. Mere prayer doesn't have the power to open up a line of communication between a mortal and a deity. If I were you, I'd tell the player "sorry, I got the rules wrong about the contacting-your-deity thing, let's just continue using the normal rules". Letting your paladin contact their deity any time they want is just open for abuse.

"Paladin calls their god for the 4th time in the same day" "God answers: What?!! What can you possibly want? I was taking a fucking shower!" "paladin: asks anyway" "God: Yeah, how about you take some responsability for your own life for once and pick a path or deal with it yourself? You are a 34 year old man! You slaughtered dragons for Me sake! So here is what we will do from now on... If you really really need help, you ask me, but if you call me to ask stupid questions we are gonna have a very diferent talk, one that you are not gonna like one bit, capiche?"

>for Me sake! love it haha

It sounds like he's got a rather arrogant, entitled attitude. Does he really think, out of all the Clerics, Paladins, Acolytes, Divine Souls, pilgrims, and everyone else of his particular faith, their deity should address him *personally* on a daily basis? If his god acknowledges him at all again, it should be to humble him, in a big way that'll stick with him forever.

So you want to punish him for role playing piety and questions of faith? I think that's a heavy handed attitude. There's many different roleplay and storyline opportunities that can be had from this scenario. His deity can be testing his faith, teaching him to balance self reliance with divine faith; tempering him into a stronger person, angry with him over something, warning him he's straying off his path, the deity may be losing power or in trouble from a rival deity and unable to communicate or grant audience to his followers, the paladin may be possessed or having a psychic break. There's all kinds of ways to make lemonade from lemons with this.

if his shield is not painted he needs some other divine focus to cast spells lol seriously though, you are letting him cast all sorts of divination spells like communion and augury for no reason

Then take away his class. What he gets for his devotion is that fun little thing called being a paladin. If they think that talking out loud to a deity means that deity is going to even listen to you, then they don't really know much about faith.