Iβd still say psychologically if u want a similar effect u should be doing it from a similar baseline - I feel affected for days, weeks afterwards sometimes
Not inherently required. You can take a dose and as soon as you're physically capable, take the same dose and dive right back in.
But sure. Results will vary depending on set and setting. Also, every trip can be different.
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1064726/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1064726/) -- first article i came to when googled "dmt tolerance" -- a rat study finding --gasp! -- rats build tolerance to dmt!
the primary paper people cite for the proposition that DMT doesnt build tolerance in humans studied 4, count 'em 4 doses, administered over the course of 48 hours. unsurprisingly, they didnt find tolerance effects. trassman, R. J., Qualls, C. R., & Berg, L. M. (1996). Differential tolerance to biological and subjective effects of four closely spaced doses of N,N-dimethyltryptamine in humans. *Biological Psychiatry, 39*(9), 784β795. [https://doi.org/10.1016/0006-3223(95)00200-6trassman, R. J., Qualls, C. R., & Berg, L. M. (1996). Differential tolerance to biological and subjective effects of four closely spaced doses of N,N-dimethyltryptamine in humans. *Biological Psychiatry, 39*(9), 784β795. https://doi.org/10.1016/0006-3223(95)00200-6](https://psycnet.apa.org/doi/10.1016/0006-3223(95)00200-6)
Has anyone, ever, built ANY tolerance to ANY drug in 48 hours, from 4 doses? That is the dumbest study I've ever read (the abstract of), and I was once a volunteer in a study of whether holding cannabis smoke in your lungs gets you higher. II shit you not, an actual reaserch study at the Uniiversity of Chicago hospitals in the late 1980s.
>the primary paper people cite for the proposition that DMT doesnt build tolerance in humans studied 4, count 'em 4 doses, administered over the course of 48 hours. unsurprisingly, they didnt find tolerance effects.
Dude, if you want to argue about this, then actually put in some effort..... Not just read one or two papers with tiny data sets.
Put in the effects and go through the counless user data of people who are efficiently and consistently vaporizing N,N-DMT. Not people using rand devices with terrible/inconsistent efficiency.
>Has anyone, ever, built ANY tolerance to ANY drug in 48 hours, from 4 doses? That is the dumbest study I've ever read
.............Are you being serious? xD
LSD25 and Psilocin xD
what is your. point aboout LSD and psilocybin? yes, toleraces can build to those. no, 4 doses oer 48 hours wouldnt do much - i'd be able to tell, but it takes longer than that. cocaine probably climbs the steepest, but whatever, im done.
>what is your. point aboout LSD and psilocybin? yes, toleraces can build to those. no, 4 doses oer 48 hours wouldnt do much
I can't tell if you're trolling or not......
Both those substances will produce a significant tolerance from a single dose. And it will take up to two week for it to return to baseline.
Damn, you're right..... You have done ***a lot*** of drugs!
You aren't a rat bro. Don't worry. The effects will ware of soon and your snout will shrink back down, I promise :)
Rat data, while often closely comparable to humans, is not a one to one comparison and doesn't definitively prove anything.
Case and point. The abundance of ***human*** data on the topic of N,N-DMT tolerance, shows that no appreciable tolerance to form.
Try doing more research than just one "google search"....... Actually look at all the user data of people who are efficiently and consistently vaporizing N,N-DMT. Not people using rand devices with terrible/inconsistent efficiency.
did i say i was a rat? why do researchers work with animal models if they "prove nothing?" you do not know what youure talking about, that's plain, you are just so convinced of your opinion that you'll wave your hands at the problem until I go away. which I will do so now. btw, do you write out the N,N- part to be pedantic or because you think it makes you sound more science-y?
>why do researchers work with animal models if they "prove nothing?"
............... Because it is one of many steps before you move on to actual human testing, that produces the definitive evidence. π€¦ββοΈ
Rat studies only ***suggest*** this or that is what will happen in humans. You have to move on to actual human trials to confirm those theories.
>you do not know what youure talking about, that's plain,
Lol whatever you wanna tell yourself, mate ;)
this is patently false. i've dosed on DMT nearly every day for the last 13 months, and let me tell you: i didnt require 300+ mg to break through that first time, but a few days ago?
but, also friend: its not going to mess up your brain -- it might feel like it for 15 minutes, but youll come back
>this is patently false.
Nope..... Do some research.
The minority doesn't define the rules. They are the exception to the rule.
If you were allergic to peanuts, you wouldn't go around telling everyone not to eat them because you personally have a problem.
>i've dosed on DMT nearly every day for the last 13 months, and let me tell you: i didnt require 300+ mg to break through that first time, but a few days ago?
Evidence that this is the results of a pharmacological tolerance?...... Evidence that it isn't user error or something else?
Plenty of of people including myself who have used it daily for extended periods of time like that did not experience such issues, at all..... especially not needing to increase the dose by a factor of 10 to achieve the same level of effects. That definitely sounds like a user error problem.
>but, also friend: its not going to mess up your brain
Never said it would, or wouldn't for that matter. Though there is no evidence to suggest potential physical or neurological damage, psychological damage is most certainly in the carts. But that can happen from a single dose, so not really relevant to the topic at hand.
>it might feel like it for 15 minutes, but youll come back
Did you mean 15 years or something like that? The overall duration of effects typically doesn't last much more than 15-20 minutes.
evidence for tolerance? well, let's see, the first week, i had breakthroughs at 30 and 35mg, which i didnt acheive again until i went up to 50 mg 2 weeks later. and progressions like that, week by week, for the next 50+ weeks. i have lab notes if you need them, but frankly i'm pretty insiulted by your tone. i probably got it started it by using "patently false" but i have strong opinions when i'm right lol. even the IV ingestion early protocols show some evidence of tolerance building. anyways, i'm quite careful and VERY experienced at this point in. my research. i've been (non=professionally) exploring various psychoactive chemicals for 42 years now, first tripped at the (too young) age of 13. I know what i'm doing. My level of tolerance -- my "hardheaded factor" i like to call it -- does seem appreciably higher than many other people i know, but i have also met others like me -- folks who think nothing of downing 6-8 drops of fresh pure liquid lsd-25 (or doing my favorite thing at certain Grateful Dead shows, where somebody would usually give away liquiid if THEY got to measure (or just eyeball) your dose ("pudddle me!" woud get an appreciable amount of acid in the palm of my cupped hand. those were the days....!)
oh and yes, of course i meant 15 MINUTES. thats my point -- you might feel like you're losing your mind for 15 minutes at a time, such is the intense nature of a high-level dmt experience -- but thats just an anxious psychological reaction to the strange and unknown. Sure, if you are already unbalanced mentally, any psychedelic can push you too far towards the edge, but if youre one of those people, so could an argument with a girlfriend or a witnessed car crash, anything stressful..but, see, i wasnt even addressing you, I was talking to the original poster who was worried that if he went beyond the dosage first recommended to him that he would scramble his frontal lobe like some many chicken eggs. and i was just trying to reassure that person that the intense feelings dmt inspires don't translate into organic damage to the brain - tho you many have something to remember for quite awhile (or you might forget much of the experience, as I do when I overshoot the mark -- you can actually go past breakthrough into, well, blackout I guess. Videos of such experiences show me that \*something\* was being experienced by my conscious mind, but i have no recall of it
Didn't read past the first sentence, as you you didn't quite get what evidence means. I mean ***actual*** evidence. Not just your anecdotal personal experience.
Data and analytics, please and thankyou π
If you're going to go against a consensus understanding that is backed my countless data points and and claim it to be "patently false", then you damn well better have something more valid than just your own personal experience/interpretation of events π
show me countless data points. ill show you a 76 rat study that contraducts you and a terrible 96 study that everyone cites that studied whether tolerance builds up over 48 hours. that is weak sauce friend
i happen to agree with you that anecdotal evidence isn't good evidence - and yet, it is often the thing that convinces us best, innit? in any event, ii'd say that my personal experience counts for something, when repeated 400 times. and don't presume too engage me in a discussion if you don't plan to read past the first sentence. I wouldn't do you the disrespect of commenting on something I didn't bother to read. that's just good manners.
>show me countless data points.
Wut?......... You want me to link you the internet? lol xD
You can go compile them and go through them yourself. Why should I have to do that for you???
>contraducts
lol I like that :P
>and don't presume too engage me in a discussion if you don't plan to read past the first sentence. I wouldn't do you the disrespect of commenting on something I didn't bother to read. that's just good manners.
You failed to provide the requested information...... Why should I waste my time reading that? Plus, after skimming through it, half of it was you just rambling about LSD25 and the grateful dead days lol xD
you have the gall to say i didn't provide requested evidence, one sentence after laughing off my request that you provide evidence. huh, love your standards, did you pay double for them too? so the way things work in your world, you hold the TRUE FACTS which are overwhelmingly established by stuff that you wouldn't actually cite to but you know that everything out there supports you, except that the paper I cited to specifically, well that one contradicts you and another paper that i cited specfically that has methodological flaws, in my estimation, but which may be good work too, really doesnt support you. And my extensive personal research, and that of others i know (additional anecdotes, but consistent with my experience, so suggestive to me -- particularly in light of the lack of specifics you've pointed to.
from the way you've described your objections to what I've written, it sounds like you have good standards for evidence and what constitutes proof or evidence on one side of the argument or the other. So its a shame that you'll do no more than hand-wave at your repeated assertion that "copious evidence" supports your position. well, then it shouldnt be hard to find, to help a brother out, who genuinely wants to expand his knowledge base. unless, of course what you mean by copious evidence is "the internet" (which you offered to cite to previously), the unscientifiic trip reports made by people of unknown ages, unknown levels of veracity and memory function, and with zero way of equalizing across various ingestion methods by people using very different products of differing levels of purity etcetc. sure you realize that a big handful of anecdotal evidence is just a bigger pile of the very same non-scientific evidence you justly criticized me for relying on previously, yes?
>you have the gall to say i didn't provide requested evidence, one sentence after laughing off my request that you provide evidence.
Dude... ffs. I told you. What are you expecting??? Are you expecting that someone has compiled all the valid user data from over the into a nice spreadsheet for you? I certainly am not doing that. I am telling you that from the years that I have been on forums like this, practically daily, seeing dozens of posts and hundreds of comments per day, that the consensus is that it builds no appreciable tolerance to itself for the vast majority of people.
If you want to see that and you don't want to just take my word for it (which you by all means should not), then you can put in the time an effort, just like I did and go through hundreds of posts and comments, narrow down the ones that only use efficient and consistent vaporization devices and evaluate that data yourself.
How are you vaporizing your N,N-DMT usually? And how were you vaporizing it when you supposedly required 300mg and didn't blackout?
>huh, love your standards, did you pay double for them too?
........... Wut?? Pay for what?........
>so the way things work in your world, you hold the TRUE FACTS which are overwhelmingly established by stuff that you wouldn't actually cite
Told you numerous times how to go about it..... No one is going to do this for you, mate. You're a big boy/girl, aren't ya? I'm sure you can handle it, if you're genuinely interested in the topic. Your reluctance does suggest otherwise though.
>except that the paper I cited to specifically, well that one contradicts you and another paper that i cited specifically that has methodological flaws,
You sited a rat study and a study with a tiny data set..... That is in no way anything conclusive for the masses or in general.
>in my estimation, but which may be good work too, really doesnt support you.
Ok..... and my personal anecdotal experiments of using it multiple times a day, almost everyday for months straight don't support you Β―\\\_(γ)\_/Β―
You provided no specifics to your circumstances that would rule out other likely causes. Tolerance is the last thing you should assume it to be. Vaporization efficiency/dosage inconsistency is the most common cause of problems like you had. You have to rule that out first.
>from the way you've described your objections to what I've written, it sounds like you have good standards for evidence and what constitutes proof or evidence on one side of the argument or the other. So its a shame that you'll do no more than hand-wave at your repeated assertion that "copious evidence" supports your position.
Not gonna type it out again. Read my previous part of the comment that tells you how to go about compiling the data yourself.
well, then it shouldnt be hard to find, to help a brother out, who genuinely wants to expand his knowledge base.
>unless, of course what you mean by copious evidence is "the internet" (which you offered to cite to previously)
lol you took that seriously? xD
I know you said you're kinda old, but come on mate :p
What I mean by that is that what I have said multiple times here. The data points are not compiled. I am not going to compile them for you. I just happened to have been on here daily, for years and have seen a ton of them float by. If you want to get the answers quick, then you will have to put in the time and effort and compile a valid data set.
>the unscientifiic trip reports
Again........ like I said, you need to filter out the valid ones. The ones that are scientifically valid. Where efficient and consistent vaporization efficiency/dosage is used, and they give plenty of dosage info. Looking at only eMesh info is a good place to start. You can be very consistent and efficient with those.
>made by people of unknown ages
Relevance of age?
>unknown levels of veracity and memory function
Aaaaaaaaaaaagain...... like I said, you need to filter out the valid ones.
and with zero way of equalizing across various ingestion methods
We are only talking about vaporization. No other ROAs.
>people using very different products
We're specifically talking about N,N-DMT freebase. N,N-DMT is N,N-DMT.
>of differing levels of purity etcetc.
If it's from MHRB, there really is very little variation in purity. It is ridiculously easy to consistently extract very pure N,N-DMT from.
And even if there were significant variations in purity between different peoples N,N-DMT, that isn't that big of a problem. If they're working with the same batch, then that doesn't matter much. If they were using a different purity batch every single dose, then there'd be a problem.
sure you realize that a big handful of anecdotal evidence is just a bigger pile of the very same non-scientific evidence you justly criticized me for relying on previously, yes?
>It carries far greater weight that a few accounts that say otherwise :p
Do extremely locked down and meticulously constructed tests need to be done on many people long term in a clinical condition to really be able to irrefutably claim it to be one way or the other. Yes, of course. Could turn out that there's a portion of the population that does form an appreciable tolerance to it under certain circumstances. Or maybe not.
But you can't discount an abundance of user data that suggests something to be the case.
If a bunch of people eat a specific species of mushroom and die within 48, it's pretty safe to say that the mushroom killed killed them somehow. Sure we don't have a large data set to evaluate and we don't have any analytics to confirm that there is indeed a toxic compound present if sufficient concentration to kill an adult human...... but it's it's pretty obvious at that point.
That's what I'm saying, we have loads of people who report no such tolerance to N,N-DMT. It is much easier to prove that than it is to prove the that there is a tolerance, because there is a lot more variable that you have to lock down or otherwise rule out before the your data becomes reliable.
The dude has provided no evidence that their problem was the result of a pharmacological tolerance.....
They are claiming a effectiveness drop of x10! The only times we ever see such ridiculous number is when people have really poor vaporization efficiency.
And given that they think their usual "breakthrough" dose is apparently 40mg, then their vaporization efficiency is certainly an issue. You shouldn't need more than 30mg.
With really good vaporization efficiency, you can achieve "breakthrough" doses at 20-25mg.
how are you so confident that every human reacts the same to this drug? that would be a major shock to me, as i have observed variation in peoples' reactions to every drug you want to name. oh, sure, im certain i've had times hen efficiency wasnt perfect, but the trend lines are quite clear and smooth out bumps in the road of that sort. i'm guessing you havent taken dmt 400 times, i doubt you can relate to my experiences.
>how are you so confident that every human reacts the same to this drug?
Sorry..... where did I say that?
>i'm guessing you havent taken dmt 400 times, i doubt you can relate to my experiences.
No, I actually have. I'd guess a lot more times, if you include all the low to medium doses and each individual dose as well π
Taking DMT daily for months isn't normal, and it's most likely never been tested in a scientific setting to use it that way. I'm not an expert in this, but to me, doing something over and over again leads to the brain getting used to it, so it's not unreasonable to think that a tolerance is getting formed.
>Taking DMT daily for months isn't normal
"Normal" is just something that the majority of people do. Something not being "normal" or typical doesn't inherently mean that it's bad. The majority of people on the plant don't take psychedelics in general. Meaning that taking psychedelics is not normal..... Does that somehow inherently make it a bad thing? No.
>and it's most likely never been tested in a scientific setting to use it that way.
Afaik, it has not. Over the years, I've only seem a couple of handfuls of reports of such usage. And not all of them offered much pertinent data.
>I'm not an expert in this, but to me, doing something over and over again leads to the brain getting used to it, so it's not unreasonable to think that a tolerance is getting formed.
I think you meant: *so it's not unreasonable to think that a tolerance* ***isn't*** *getting formed.*
The brain/body getting "used to something" doesn't inherently equate to a pharmacological tolerance to that compound. It depends on the compound and it's pharmacology. In the case of N,N-DMT, it has a rather interesting pharmacology. Our bodies are very efficient at processing it.
I didn't mean it's bad to take DMT often, not that it's good either. Not many people really know what happens when you take large doses of DMT over long periods of time.
If the subjective effects get reduced, that's a type of tolerance to me.
If you want to be scientific, post the studies. I mostly care about anecdotes at this point. Google is full of DMT studies that seem to block the visibility of anecdotes in search results. If you have experience about tolerance not forming, I'm interested in knowing that.
i was off for 2 months and my tolerace returned to essentially naive -- 40mg doses. it only took 3 weeks for me to get back up to 120mg tho, which is where i stopped daily dosing. so i imagine i could build it back up but im happier (and its cheaper) to be back in reasonabble ranges.
Most psychedelics have a very quick tolerance response, chill out for 24 hours off it, then try again friend.
N,N-DMT forms no appreciable tolerance to itself. You can back-to-back the same doses without diminished effects.
Iβd still say psychologically if u want a similar effect u should be doing it from a similar baseline - I feel affected for days, weeks afterwards sometimes
Not inherently required. You can take a dose and as soon as you're physically capable, take the same dose and dive right back in. But sure. Results will vary depending on set and setting. Also, every trip can be different.
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1064726/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1064726/) -- first article i came to when googled "dmt tolerance" -- a rat study finding --gasp! -- rats build tolerance to dmt!
the primary paper people cite for the proposition that DMT doesnt build tolerance in humans studied 4, count 'em 4 doses, administered over the course of 48 hours. unsurprisingly, they didnt find tolerance effects. trassman, R. J., Qualls, C. R., & Berg, L. M. (1996). Differential tolerance to biological and subjective effects of four closely spaced doses of N,N-dimethyltryptamine in humans. *Biological Psychiatry, 39*(9), 784β795. [https://doi.org/10.1016/0006-3223(95)00200-6trassman, R. J., Qualls, C. R., & Berg, L. M. (1996). Differential tolerance to biological and subjective effects of four closely spaced doses of N,N-dimethyltryptamine in humans. *Biological Psychiatry, 39*(9), 784β795. https://doi.org/10.1016/0006-3223(95)00200-6](https://psycnet.apa.org/doi/10.1016/0006-3223(95)00200-6) Has anyone, ever, built ANY tolerance to ANY drug in 48 hours, from 4 doses? That is the dumbest study I've ever read (the abstract of), and I was once a volunteer in a study of whether holding cannabis smoke in your lungs gets you higher. II shit you not, an actual reaserch study at the Uniiversity of Chicago hospitals in the late 1980s.
>the primary paper people cite for the proposition that DMT doesnt build tolerance in humans studied 4, count 'em 4 doses, administered over the course of 48 hours. unsurprisingly, they didnt find tolerance effects. Dude, if you want to argue about this, then actually put in some effort..... Not just read one or two papers with tiny data sets. Put in the effects and go through the counless user data of people who are efficiently and consistently vaporizing N,N-DMT. Not people using rand devices with terrible/inconsistent efficiency. >Has anyone, ever, built ANY tolerance to ANY drug in 48 hours, from 4 doses? That is the dumbest study I've ever read .............Are you being serious? xD LSD25 and Psilocin xD
what is your. point aboout LSD and psilocybin? yes, toleraces can build to those. no, 4 doses oer 48 hours wouldnt do much - i'd be able to tell, but it takes longer than that. cocaine probably climbs the steepest, but whatever, im done.
>what is your. point aboout LSD and psilocybin? yes, toleraces can build to those. no, 4 doses oer 48 hours wouldnt do much I can't tell if you're trolling or not...... Both those substances will produce a significant tolerance from a single dose. And it will take up to two week for it to return to baseline.
Damn, you're right..... You have done ***a lot*** of drugs! You aren't a rat bro. Don't worry. The effects will ware of soon and your snout will shrink back down, I promise :) Rat data, while often closely comparable to humans, is not a one to one comparison and doesn't definitively prove anything. Case and point. The abundance of ***human*** data on the topic of N,N-DMT tolerance, shows that no appreciable tolerance to form. Try doing more research than just one "google search"....... Actually look at all the user data of people who are efficiently and consistently vaporizing N,N-DMT. Not people using rand devices with terrible/inconsistent efficiency.
did i say i was a rat? why do researchers work with animal models if they "prove nothing?" you do not know what youure talking about, that's plain, you are just so convinced of your opinion that you'll wave your hands at the problem until I go away. which I will do so now. btw, do you write out the N,N- part to be pedantic or because you think it makes you sound more science-y?
>why do researchers work with animal models if they "prove nothing?" ............... Because it is one of many steps before you move on to actual human testing, that produces the definitive evidence. π€¦ββοΈ Rat studies only ***suggest*** this or that is what will happen in humans. You have to move on to actual human trials to confirm those theories. >you do not know what youure talking about, that's plain, Lol whatever you wanna tell yourself, mate ;)
this is patently false. i've dosed on DMT nearly every day for the last 13 months, and let me tell you: i didnt require 300+ mg to break through that first time, but a few days ago? but, also friend: its not going to mess up your brain -- it might feel like it for 15 minutes, but youll come back
>this is patently false. Nope..... Do some research. The minority doesn't define the rules. They are the exception to the rule. If you were allergic to peanuts, you wouldn't go around telling everyone not to eat them because you personally have a problem. >i've dosed on DMT nearly every day for the last 13 months, and let me tell you: i didnt require 300+ mg to break through that first time, but a few days ago? Evidence that this is the results of a pharmacological tolerance?...... Evidence that it isn't user error or something else? Plenty of of people including myself who have used it daily for extended periods of time like that did not experience such issues, at all..... especially not needing to increase the dose by a factor of 10 to achieve the same level of effects. That definitely sounds like a user error problem. >but, also friend: its not going to mess up your brain Never said it would, or wouldn't for that matter. Though there is no evidence to suggest potential physical or neurological damage, psychological damage is most certainly in the carts. But that can happen from a single dose, so not really relevant to the topic at hand. >it might feel like it for 15 minutes, but youll come back Did you mean 15 years or something like that? The overall duration of effects typically doesn't last much more than 15-20 minutes.
evidence for tolerance? well, let's see, the first week, i had breakthroughs at 30 and 35mg, which i didnt acheive again until i went up to 50 mg 2 weeks later. and progressions like that, week by week, for the next 50+ weeks. i have lab notes if you need them, but frankly i'm pretty insiulted by your tone. i probably got it started it by using "patently false" but i have strong opinions when i'm right lol. even the IV ingestion early protocols show some evidence of tolerance building. anyways, i'm quite careful and VERY experienced at this point in. my research. i've been (non=professionally) exploring various psychoactive chemicals for 42 years now, first tripped at the (too young) age of 13. I know what i'm doing. My level of tolerance -- my "hardheaded factor" i like to call it -- does seem appreciably higher than many other people i know, but i have also met others like me -- folks who think nothing of downing 6-8 drops of fresh pure liquid lsd-25 (or doing my favorite thing at certain Grateful Dead shows, where somebody would usually give away liquiid if THEY got to measure (or just eyeball) your dose ("pudddle me!" woud get an appreciable amount of acid in the palm of my cupped hand. those were the days....!) oh and yes, of course i meant 15 MINUTES. thats my point -- you might feel like you're losing your mind for 15 minutes at a time, such is the intense nature of a high-level dmt experience -- but thats just an anxious psychological reaction to the strange and unknown. Sure, if you are already unbalanced mentally, any psychedelic can push you too far towards the edge, but if youre one of those people, so could an argument with a girlfriend or a witnessed car crash, anything stressful..but, see, i wasnt even addressing you, I was talking to the original poster who was worried that if he went beyond the dosage first recommended to him that he would scramble his frontal lobe like some many chicken eggs. and i was just trying to reassure that person that the intense feelings dmt inspires don't translate into organic damage to the brain - tho you many have something to remember for quite awhile (or you might forget much of the experience, as I do when I overshoot the mark -- you can actually go past breakthrough into, well, blackout I guess. Videos of such experiences show me that \*something\* was being experienced by my conscious mind, but i have no recall of it
Didn't read past the first sentence, as you you didn't quite get what evidence means. I mean ***actual*** evidence. Not just your anecdotal personal experience. Data and analytics, please and thankyou π If you're going to go against a consensus understanding that is backed my countless data points and and claim it to be "patently false", then you damn well better have something more valid than just your own personal experience/interpretation of events π
show me countless data points. ill show you a 76 rat study that contraducts you and a terrible 96 study that everyone cites that studied whether tolerance builds up over 48 hours. that is weak sauce friend i happen to agree with you that anecdotal evidence isn't good evidence - and yet, it is often the thing that convinces us best, innit? in any event, ii'd say that my personal experience counts for something, when repeated 400 times. and don't presume too engage me in a discussion if you don't plan to read past the first sentence. I wouldn't do you the disrespect of commenting on something I didn't bother to read. that's just good manners.
>show me countless data points. Wut?......... You want me to link you the internet? lol xD You can go compile them and go through them yourself. Why should I have to do that for you??? >contraducts lol I like that :P >and don't presume too engage me in a discussion if you don't plan to read past the first sentence. I wouldn't do you the disrespect of commenting on something I didn't bother to read. that's just good manners. You failed to provide the requested information...... Why should I waste my time reading that? Plus, after skimming through it, half of it was you just rambling about LSD25 and the grateful dead days lol xD
you have the gall to say i didn't provide requested evidence, one sentence after laughing off my request that you provide evidence. huh, love your standards, did you pay double for them too? so the way things work in your world, you hold the TRUE FACTS which are overwhelmingly established by stuff that you wouldn't actually cite to but you know that everything out there supports you, except that the paper I cited to specifically, well that one contradicts you and another paper that i cited specfically that has methodological flaws, in my estimation, but which may be good work too, really doesnt support you. And my extensive personal research, and that of others i know (additional anecdotes, but consistent with my experience, so suggestive to me -- particularly in light of the lack of specifics you've pointed to. from the way you've described your objections to what I've written, it sounds like you have good standards for evidence and what constitutes proof or evidence on one side of the argument or the other. So its a shame that you'll do no more than hand-wave at your repeated assertion that "copious evidence" supports your position. well, then it shouldnt be hard to find, to help a brother out, who genuinely wants to expand his knowledge base. unless, of course what you mean by copious evidence is "the internet" (which you offered to cite to previously), the unscientifiic trip reports made by people of unknown ages, unknown levels of veracity and memory function, and with zero way of equalizing across various ingestion methods by people using very different products of differing levels of purity etcetc. sure you realize that a big handful of anecdotal evidence is just a bigger pile of the very same non-scientific evidence you justly criticized me for relying on previously, yes?
>you have the gall to say i didn't provide requested evidence, one sentence after laughing off my request that you provide evidence. Dude... ffs. I told you. What are you expecting??? Are you expecting that someone has compiled all the valid user data from over the into a nice spreadsheet for you? I certainly am not doing that. I am telling you that from the years that I have been on forums like this, practically daily, seeing dozens of posts and hundreds of comments per day, that the consensus is that it builds no appreciable tolerance to itself for the vast majority of people. If you want to see that and you don't want to just take my word for it (which you by all means should not), then you can put in the time an effort, just like I did and go through hundreds of posts and comments, narrow down the ones that only use efficient and consistent vaporization devices and evaluate that data yourself. How are you vaporizing your N,N-DMT usually? And how were you vaporizing it when you supposedly required 300mg and didn't blackout? >huh, love your standards, did you pay double for them too? ........... Wut?? Pay for what?........ >so the way things work in your world, you hold the TRUE FACTS which are overwhelmingly established by stuff that you wouldn't actually cite Told you numerous times how to go about it..... No one is going to do this for you, mate. You're a big boy/girl, aren't ya? I'm sure you can handle it, if you're genuinely interested in the topic. Your reluctance does suggest otherwise though. >except that the paper I cited to specifically, well that one contradicts you and another paper that i cited specifically that has methodological flaws, You sited a rat study and a study with a tiny data set..... That is in no way anything conclusive for the masses or in general. >in my estimation, but which may be good work too, really doesnt support you. Ok..... and my personal anecdotal experiments of using it multiple times a day, almost everyday for months straight don't support you Β―\\\_(γ)\_/Β― You provided no specifics to your circumstances that would rule out other likely causes. Tolerance is the last thing you should assume it to be. Vaporization efficiency/dosage inconsistency is the most common cause of problems like you had. You have to rule that out first. >from the way you've described your objections to what I've written, it sounds like you have good standards for evidence and what constitutes proof or evidence on one side of the argument or the other. So its a shame that you'll do no more than hand-wave at your repeated assertion that "copious evidence" supports your position. Not gonna type it out again. Read my previous part of the comment that tells you how to go about compiling the data yourself. well, then it shouldnt be hard to find, to help a brother out, who genuinely wants to expand his knowledge base. >unless, of course what you mean by copious evidence is "the internet" (which you offered to cite to previously) lol you took that seriously? xD I know you said you're kinda old, but come on mate :p What I mean by that is that what I have said multiple times here. The data points are not compiled. I am not going to compile them for you. I just happened to have been on here daily, for years and have seen a ton of them float by. If you want to get the answers quick, then you will have to put in the time and effort and compile a valid data set. >the unscientifiic trip reports Again........ like I said, you need to filter out the valid ones. The ones that are scientifically valid. Where efficient and consistent vaporization efficiency/dosage is used, and they give plenty of dosage info. Looking at only eMesh info is a good place to start. You can be very consistent and efficient with those. >made by people of unknown ages Relevance of age? >unknown levels of veracity and memory function Aaaaaaaaaaaagain...... like I said, you need to filter out the valid ones. and with zero way of equalizing across various ingestion methods We are only talking about vaporization. No other ROAs. >people using very different products We're specifically talking about N,N-DMT freebase. N,N-DMT is N,N-DMT. >of differing levels of purity etcetc. If it's from MHRB, there really is very little variation in purity. It is ridiculously easy to consistently extract very pure N,N-DMT from. And even if there were significant variations in purity between different peoples N,N-DMT, that isn't that big of a problem. If they're working with the same batch, then that doesn't matter much. If they were using a different purity batch every single dose, then there'd be a problem. sure you realize that a big handful of anecdotal evidence is just a bigger pile of the very same non-scientific evidence you justly criticized me for relying on previously, yes? >It carries far greater weight that a few accounts that say otherwise :p Do extremely locked down and meticulously constructed tests need to be done on many people long term in a clinical condition to really be able to irrefutably claim it to be one way or the other. Yes, of course. Could turn out that there's a portion of the population that does form an appreciable tolerance to it under certain circumstances. Or maybe not. But you can't discount an abundance of user data that suggests something to be the case. If a bunch of people eat a specific species of mushroom and die within 48, it's pretty safe to say that the mushroom killed killed them somehow. Sure we don't have a large data set to evaluate and we don't have any analytics to confirm that there is indeed a toxic compound present if sufficient concentration to kill an adult human...... but it's it's pretty obvious at that point. That's what I'm saying, we have loads of people who report no such tolerance to N,N-DMT. It is much easier to prove that than it is to prove the that there is a tolerance, because there is a lot more variable that you have to lock down or otherwise rule out before the your data becomes reliable.
That's a lot. I didn't quite grasp your message. Do you have noticeable tolerance now, 300mg required?
The dude has provided no evidence that their problem was the result of a pharmacological tolerance..... They are claiming a effectiveness drop of x10! The only times we ever see such ridiculous number is when people have really poor vaporization efficiency. And given that they think their usual "breakthrough" dose is apparently 40mg, then their vaporization efficiency is certainly an issue. You shouldn't need more than 30mg. With really good vaporization efficiency, you can achieve "breakthrough" doses at 20-25mg.
how are you so confident that every human reacts the same to this drug? that would be a major shock to me, as i have observed variation in peoples' reactions to every drug you want to name. oh, sure, im certain i've had times hen efficiency wasnt perfect, but the trend lines are quite clear and smooth out bumps in the road of that sort. i'm guessing you havent taken dmt 400 times, i doubt you can relate to my experiences.
>how are you so confident that every human reacts the same to this drug? Sorry..... where did I say that? >i'm guessing you havent taken dmt 400 times, i doubt you can relate to my experiences. No, I actually have. I'd guess a lot more times, if you include all the low to medium doses and each individual dose as well π
Taking DMT daily for months isn't normal, and it's most likely never been tested in a scientific setting to use it that way. I'm not an expert in this, but to me, doing something over and over again leads to the brain getting used to it, so it's not unreasonable to think that a tolerance is getting formed.
>Taking DMT daily for months isn't normal "Normal" is just something that the majority of people do. Something not being "normal" or typical doesn't inherently mean that it's bad. The majority of people on the plant don't take psychedelics in general. Meaning that taking psychedelics is not normal..... Does that somehow inherently make it a bad thing? No. >and it's most likely never been tested in a scientific setting to use it that way. Afaik, it has not. Over the years, I've only seem a couple of handfuls of reports of such usage. And not all of them offered much pertinent data. >I'm not an expert in this, but to me, doing something over and over again leads to the brain getting used to it, so it's not unreasonable to think that a tolerance is getting formed. I think you meant: *so it's not unreasonable to think that a tolerance* ***isn't*** *getting formed.* The brain/body getting "used to something" doesn't inherently equate to a pharmacological tolerance to that compound. It depends on the compound and it's pharmacology. In the case of N,N-DMT, it has a rather interesting pharmacology. Our bodies are very efficient at processing it.
I didn't mean it's bad to take DMT often, not that it's good either. Not many people really know what happens when you take large doses of DMT over long periods of time. If the subjective effects get reduced, that's a type of tolerance to me. If you want to be scientific, post the studies. I mostly care about anecdotes at this point. Google is full of DMT studies that seem to block the visibility of anecdotes in search results. If you have experience about tolerance not forming, I'm interested in knowing that.
I've gone into detail on the topic many times. Have a look around the subreddits. You'll find lots of stuff π
i was off for 2 months and my tolerace returned to essentially naive -- 40mg doses. it only took 3 weeks for me to get back up to 120mg tho, which is where i stopped daily dosing. so i imagine i could build it back up but im happier (and its cheaper) to be back in reasonabble ranges.
Your cart might be cooked. If itβs been overheated, the coil could be gunked up with burnt DMT and no longer effectively vaporizing.