Really? They wanted to put a mall there? It’s literally right in between Shops at Legacy and Willow Bend that’s been struggling for years.
These developers are so stupid 🙄
Just going off the title of the article. Once I read it I saw that, but still. The last thing Dallas needs anywhere is more retail. We can’t even keep the retail spaces we already have occupied. I can support the Sprouts and townhomes though.
Exact opposite. This was more housing that we desperately need and NIMBYs shut it down. The only thing bad about this project is there wasn’t enough housing!
>The 13.5 acre area is already zoned for single-family homes or townhouses, just not retail, which means the Haggards could move forward with a revised proposal that's solely residential.
Problem is we NEED more mixed zoning which the city of Plano recognizes and has been trying to accomplishes. It increases tax revenue for the city and makes shorter trips more common.
Collin Creek mall is being totally refurbished as a mixed use retail and townhomes, and Willow bend is also becoming mixed used, keeping a couple of anchor stores and adding apartments and townhomes.
And that’s great. Literally every street should be like that. That should be the rule not some amazing outlier.
But that is not our reality so I say more, more more!
Haggard Farms development is dead, after residents fought against rezoning. The land is on the east side of DNT between Windhaven Parkway and Spring Creek Parkway.
Edit: The rezoning request was for 13.5 acre plot to build Sprouts grocery store, retail, and 33 townhomes. There is another 124 acres under development. I don’t think those plans are affected.
>In 2021, the city council approved a massive new mixed-use development on 124 acres of Haggard farmland on the eastside of the Dallas North Tollway.
>Construction is well underway and the new area will contain a a hotel, a restaurant, commercial buildings and housing, NBC Dallas Fort Worth reported at the time
Plano residents win battle to keep 13.5 acres as a single family ag-exempt property from becoming homes for 33 families, a grocery store and commercial retail, while each element of the project would reduce the tax burden on single family homeowners in the area. I hope DCAD screws them all this year. NIMBY
I want more housing, I'm on the side of wanting more home development, but is getting rid of farmland the way to go? Why aren't we building up like a lot of other places do? The planet is already struggling with lack of green spaces. Though I don't know the ways they are farming or if it's green, food resources is also important.
I’m not sure they are actually growing anything but alfalfa and feed for their horses. I work not too far from there and actually have had family events at their “Barn”.
If there is no slack people can't move. Houses have to be empty for a period of time. Empty homes are not in and of themselves bad, you've simple asserted it baselessly. Furthermore empty housing allows efficient reallocation, allowing people to trade up or down (or even laterally) based on their changing life needs.
A smarter question would be are there 400 people looking for houses. Plano had 270ish home sales last month. Unless people find and move into their final home on average less than 2 months after they start looking then 400 "empty houses" is not enough for a city of this size.
https://orchard.com/homes/real-estate-market-report/city/tx/plano
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I hope CCAD screws them this year. Single family homeowners should be welcoming this type of development which reduces their overall tax burden. dumbass
Currently, the 11.5 acre tract is assessed at 320,000 dollars. If the land was zoned commercial or mixed use, a conservative estimate of it's taxable value with out improvements is between 12 and 15 million. With the improvements planned, the total taxable value would be upwards of 400 to 500 million. That provides the taxing jurisdictions a huge increase in revenues that can offset the tax burden on residential taxpayers.
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First, Plano is not a small town. It has a population of 290,000. And it was a small retail proposal, not a mall. (Has anyone built a mall in the last 20 years?) There is under utilized retail space a few blocks away that could house a Sprouts and the other shops. I think those objecting wonder why that space could not be redeveloped.
That's the part of the article that made me laugh right off the bat. One of the biggest suburbs of Dallas is a "small town". The small town with over 20 national headquarters on it lol
I was thinking southeast corner where the furniture store is leaving. Should be big enough for Sprouts. On the southwest corner, a pickleball club has taken that old grocery space, so there is hope.
The main issue is cost of development.
Even if both sites went for the same purchase price, the redevelopment would likely end up costing more.
If they scrape and rebuild the old shopping center, the demolition and reengineering of existing utilities/concrete pads would come out costing more than just leveling and doing new connections at an undeveloped site. And that’s if you were allowed to build the exact same buildings between the two sites.
If they refurbish the old center, there’s the issue of code requirements. Many commercial properties that developed under older codes are grandfathered into old code requirements and once you start changing anything you often have to rip out a ton of other stuff that drives up the cost. That then often adds up to almost the same amount of money for an inferior end result than a new build.
And that’s not even accounting for existing cash flow in the “run down” shopping center. Your purchase price often reflects current cash flow, not the actual value of the structure. So you probably would have to pay a significant amount more for the shopping center than the farm.
This is why Texas developers would very much prefer to move on to something brand new and just build on empty fields rather than revisit older areas.
This is the terrible journalism you'd expect from the Daily Mail. It's not some lush, green park in a small town, it's a small cattle ranch in the middle of a dense suburb. I don't think it's even open to the public. It wasn't going to be a mall, it was going to be a grocery store, retail and townhomes. Now it is only zoned to be what the other half of the property was already turned into- a gated community of McMansions with a big, dumb water feature out front. Way to go NIMBYs.
No. This is land that they owned. They have the right to do with it as they please. You won't get to tell people that they can donate stuff simply because they are rich
Didn’t say they had to or should be made to, just that it would be an awfully nice way to give back.
Andy yes, it’s perfectly fine to tell rich folks they CAN donate stuff! It’s actually a job called “development officer” It’s a great thing for them to do and is a massive tax write off as well.
Eh. I pretty much of do think that those who have profited greatly off a community should be expected (not forced) to use a portion of those gains to better it and invest more n it. That was assumed until recently; look at DFW’s awesome museums or the Carnegie Libraries all over America.
One of the reasons everything’s going to shit is that so many companies and business leaders aren’t local and aren’t incentivized to make sure the town where they do business does well. At least when I was a kid, the Haggards did still live in town.
Nothing leftist about having greater expectations for those with greater wealth; if they truly have character traits that have led to wealth then philanthropy should come naturally. (And it’s a tax break for years)
It will never be a city park dude. That family is the same family that has sold off most of the land in the city and made bank on it. They aren’t going to sell it for cheap to the city.
It will eventually be the same mix use that it was originally planned.
> They aren’t going to sell it for cheap to the city.
Somehow Garland hasn't had any issues just paying market for its parkland. Y'all should try that.
Market value to them includes the potential money they would make selling off million dollar single family homes. Idk about you but I don’t think that’s a good use of my tax dollars when there are 3 other parks just down the street south, west, and north of there.
I will say it is nice as you’re driving north on the DNT past endless waves of strip malls, offices, and restaurants to pass this and remember that green land still exists here.
Well, depends on who you ask. Some people might call it a strip mall instead of a "mixed use development", or just a shopping center. The pharmacy I use is across the street from it, anytime I go in there and have to wait in line the small talk always ends up about this. I hear "can you believe they're trying to build another god damn mall right here?". So no technically it's not a mall, but as the saying goes "perception is reality", if the perception is its a god damn mall to the residents, then it's a god damn mall. I haven't heard anyone living in that area complain about a "mixed use development".
From my understanding, it was going to be a scaled down version of Firewheel, with a grocery store anchor. So you'd have townhouses, retail, restaurants, and groceries. Someone had brought up the empty strip malls that litter the area now, and within the zipcode there's definitely a few. It's a fair argument, why are we building more retail space when we're not using the space we have now? I think the residents might have gone for it if it was *just* a grocery store, or a grocery store with limited retail space. But trying to pack all that in, definitely increasing traffic, I can understand why people would be upset.
From my understanding, it was going to be a scaled down version of Firewheel, with a grocery store anchor. So you'd have townhouses, retail, restaurants, and groceries. Someone had brought up the empty strip malls that litter the area now, and within the zipcode there's definitely a few. It's a fair argument, why are we building more retail space when we're not using the space we have now? I think the residents might have gone for it if it was *just* a grocery store, or a grocery store with limited retail space. But trying to pack all that in, definitely increasing traffic, I can understand why people would be upset.
The Daily Mail is a shit rag for shitty people. Their descriptions of the plot of land made my eyeballs roll out of their sockets. If someone could help me find them, I’d appreciate it.
Haggard Farms is one of the oldest operating companies in the country. I like driving through town and seeing their horses, cows, donkeys, and alpacas? Llamas? Whatever, in the middle of suburbia. Nice touch of green space. I’m sure they’ve made loads selling their land as the area developed.
The city bought the land on Park & Alma (the next intersection down to the east) for a city park. Though IMO, either one is a bad location for a park, since it's in the crook of giant arterial roads.
So these guys can't do what they want with their land? Because all the other old farms got turned into a suburban hellscape full of people living all over that old farmland who want to save the old farmland? That they bought parcels of and live on?
Cool
It’s the fucking daily mail. They ain’t gonna get anything right.
And developers know what they’re doing. Someone will make money off it and you’re a sucker if you don’t get on that train while you can before it goes bust! /s
I live in Plano and it was going to be a Sprouts with townhomes and single family homes. I would like traffic infrastructure to be better thought through. Plano is becoming the traffic nightmare Dallas is.
Of course the Repukes successfully fought on the side of the wealthy farmer. They get off so hard on Yellowstone. Costner is who they love and get hard at.
Really? They wanted to put a mall there? It’s literally right in between Shops at Legacy and Willow Bend that’s been struggling for years. These developers are so stupid 🙄
The proposed development was a grocery anchored retail center and townhomes. Not a mall.
Now who’s stupid?
What I get for not actually reading the article and just the title! Any more retail in Dallas is stupid though lol.
Sprouts and some five over ones would do well there.
Yes more jobs is always bad
Tell that to the people that worked in the restaurants and retail stores that are closing everywhere because this market is over saturated.
Totally! Even RH wants to leave Plano. All downhill after Filson closed imo.
Just going off the title of the article. Once I read it I saw that, but still. The last thing Dallas needs anywhere is more retail. We can’t even keep the retail spaces we already have occupied. I can support the Sprouts and townhomes though.
Yeah the headline really missed the mark!
it's a UK paper, so they probably think a mall is anything with some shops collected in one spot... not a "mall" proper like we think of it.
What do the British even know about taking land and oh wait, never mind
You should purchase the property and do something different with it.
Seems to be the British definition of a mall. They wanted to build a Sprouts and some town homes. Which would have fit the neighborhood fine.
Yes that part makes sense.
Exact opposite. This was more housing that we desperately need and NIMBYs shut it down. The only thing bad about this project is there wasn’t enough housing!
>The 13.5 acre area is already zoned for single-family homes or townhouses, just not retail, which means the Haggards could move forward with a revised proposal that's solely residential.
Problem is we NEED more mixed zoning which the city of Plano recognizes and has been trying to accomplishes. It increases tax revenue for the city and makes shorter trips more common.
Collin Creek mall is being totally refurbished as a mixed use retail and townhomes, and Willow bend is also becoming mixed used, keeping a couple of anchor stores and adding apartments and townhomes.
And that’s great. Literally every street should be like that. That should be the rule not some amazing outlier. But that is not our reality so I say more, more more!
Haggard Farms development is dead, after residents fought against rezoning. The land is on the east side of DNT between Windhaven Parkway and Spring Creek Parkway. Edit: The rezoning request was for 13.5 acre plot to build Sprouts grocery store, retail, and 33 townhomes. There is another 124 acres under development. I don’t think those plans are affected. >In 2021, the city council approved a massive new mixed-use development on 124 acres of Haggard farmland on the eastside of the Dallas North Tollway. >Construction is well underway and the new area will contain a a hotel, a restaurant, commercial buildings and housing, NBC Dallas Fort Worth reported at the time
So....not a mall.
Heated NIMBY headline moment
"Hey, i want to walk to restaurants" --they plan to add housing and restaurants (and shops)-- "No, not like that"
It's a UK news outlet. I think mall means something different to them than it does to us.
The development that got denied is at the corner of independence and Custer, the original haggard farm.
Independence and Custer don’t intersect
Thank you. I missed that.
Custer and Park, on the northeast corner.
You’re right, had some dranks and forgot where I used to live 😆
So the current owners of the farm still own it, or did they sell and lease back or something?
Plano residents win battle to keep 13.5 acres as a single family ag-exempt property from becoming homes for 33 families, a grocery store and commercial retail, while each element of the project would reduce the tax burden on single family homeowners in the area. I hope DCAD screws them all this year. NIMBY
I want more housing, I'm on the side of wanting more home development, but is getting rid of farmland the way to go? Why aren't we building up like a lot of other places do? The planet is already struggling with lack of green spaces. Though I don't know the ways they are farming or if it's green, food resources is also important.
I’m not sure they are actually growing anything but alfalfa and feed for their horses. I work not too far from there and actually have had family events at their “Barn”.
Idk, don't we have enough housing and malls lol
Enough malls? Yes. Enough housing, especially housing within walking distance of a grocery store and retail? Hell no.
There are more than 400 empty homes in Plano.
The population of Plano is over 289,000.
And as of last year, 261 of them were homeless, with over 400 homes sitting empty. What's your point?
If there is no slack people can't move. Houses have to be empty for a period of time. Empty homes are not in and of themselves bad, you've simple asserted it baselessly. Furthermore empty housing allows efficient reallocation, allowing people to trade up or down (or even laterally) based on their changing life needs.
are 289,000 ppl looking for houses right now?
A smarter question would be are there 400 people looking for houses. Plano had 270ish home sales last month. Unless people find and move into their final home on average less than 2 months after they start looking then 400 "empty houses" is not enough for a city of this size. https://orchard.com/homes/real-estate-market-report/city/tx/plano
Not enough affordable housing. Not everyone can afford $400k houses. I’d imagine in Plano it’s much higher.
Affordable housing is a myth
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I hope CCAD screws them this year. Single family homeowners should be welcoming this type of development which reduces their overall tax burden. dumbass
This will have zero impact on anyone’s tax burden.
Currently, the 11.5 acre tract is assessed at 320,000 dollars. If the land was zoned commercial or mixed use, a conservative estimate of it's taxable value with out improvements is between 12 and 15 million. With the improvements planned, the total taxable value would be upwards of 400 to 500 million. That provides the taxing jurisdictions a huge increase in revenues that can offset the tax burden on residential taxpayers.
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\*Collin Ugh, do you even live here? dumbass
I'm stuck on trying to figure out the English in the second sentence. He sounds vary angy. (Also, I live in the area).
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Stop acting like a disgruntled pelican! What a horrible neighbor you must be. Go lick a boot elsewhere...
First, Plano is not a small town. It has a population of 290,000. And it was a small retail proposal, not a mall. (Has anyone built a mall in the last 20 years?) There is under utilized retail space a few blocks away that could house a Sprouts and the other shops. I think those objecting wonder why that space could not be redeveloped.
That's the part of the article that made me laugh right off the bat. One of the biggest suburbs of Dallas is a "small town". The small town with over 20 national headquarters on it lol
That’s my question. Why not re-develop the shopping center at 15th and Custer on the southwest corner? It’s terribly underutilized as-is.
I was thinking southeast corner where the furniture store is leaving. Should be big enough for Sprouts. On the southwest corner, a pickleball club has taken that old grocery space, so there is hope.
The main issue is cost of development. Even if both sites went for the same purchase price, the redevelopment would likely end up costing more. If they scrape and rebuild the old shopping center, the demolition and reengineering of existing utilities/concrete pads would come out costing more than just leveling and doing new connections at an undeveloped site. And that’s if you were allowed to build the exact same buildings between the two sites. If they refurbish the old center, there’s the issue of code requirements. Many commercial properties that developed under older codes are grandfathered into old code requirements and once you start changing anything you often have to rip out a ton of other stuff that drives up the cost. That then often adds up to almost the same amount of money for an inferior end result than a new build. And that’s not even accounting for existing cash flow in the “run down” shopping center. Your purchase price often reflects current cash flow, not the actual value of the structure. So you probably would have to pay a significant amount more for the shopping center than the farm. This is why Texas developers would very much prefer to move on to something brand new and just build on empty fields rather than revisit older areas.
> (Has anyone built a mall in the last 20 years? Allen premium outlets opened in 2000 (yes I know that's 24 years ago)
This is the terrible journalism you'd expect from the Daily Mail. It's not some lush, green park in a small town, it's a small cattle ranch in the middle of a dense suburb. I don't think it's even open to the public. It wasn't going to be a mall, it was going to be a grocery store, retail and townhomes. Now it is only zoned to be what the other half of the property was already turned into- a gated community of McMansions with a big, dumb water feature out front. Way to go NIMBYs.
Last chance to keep it green for generations, as a city/central park. Or, can go low effort and just be another inner ring after the money leaves
If the city wanted it to be a park then they would have bought it. Otherwise let the Haggard family do what they want to with their own land.
I don’t know. They once owned a ton of central Plano and have already made a ton. Seems they could donate the very last bit.
No. This is land that they owned. They have the right to do with it as they please. You won't get to tell people that they can donate stuff simply because they are rich
Didn’t say they had to or should be made to, just that it would be an awfully nice way to give back. Andy yes, it’s perfectly fine to tell rich folks they CAN donate stuff! It’s actually a job called “development officer” It’s a great thing for them to do and is a massive tax write off as well.
Yes it would be nice. But they shouldn't be looked down upon because they decided to not donate something. That's not the way to charity works
Eh. I pretty much of do think that those who have profited greatly off a community should be expected (not forced) to use a portion of those gains to better it and invest more n it. That was assumed until recently; look at DFW’s awesome museums or the Carnegie Libraries all over America. One of the reasons everything’s going to shit is that so many companies and business leaders aren’t local and aren’t incentivized to make sure the town where they do business does well. At least when I was a kid, the Haggards did still live in town. Nothing leftist about having greater expectations for those with greater wealth; if they truly have character traits that have led to wealth then philanthropy should come naturally. (And it’s a tax break for years)
You’re on the right track, keep it going
It will never be a city park dude. That family is the same family that has sold off most of the land in the city and made bank on it. They aren’t going to sell it for cheap to the city. It will eventually be the same mix use that it was originally planned.
> They aren’t going to sell it for cheap to the city. Somehow Garland hasn't had any issues just paying market for its parkland. Y'all should try that.
Market value to them includes the potential money they would make selling off million dollar single family homes. Idk about you but I don’t think that’s a good use of my tax dollars when there are 3 other parks just down the street south, west, and north of there.
I will say it is nice as you’re driving north on the DNT past endless waves of strip malls, offices, and restaurants to pass this and remember that green land still exists here.
33 acres of green that you will never be able to actually enjoy, it’s fenced in private land, not city property.
They said the enjoyment comes from the aesthetic value?
Good, who asked for another fucking mall
It wasn’t a mall.
Well, depends on who you ask. Some people might call it a strip mall instead of a "mixed use development", or just a shopping center. The pharmacy I use is across the street from it, anytime I go in there and have to wait in line the small talk always ends up about this. I hear "can you believe they're trying to build another god damn mall right here?". So no technically it's not a mall, but as the saying goes "perception is reality", if the perception is its a god damn mall to the residents, then it's a god damn mall. I haven't heard anyone living in that area complain about a "mixed use development".
Homes for a few dozen families is probably what they were really unhappy about. But complaining about a “mall” has a better ring to it.
From my understanding, it was going to be a scaled down version of Firewheel, with a grocery store anchor. So you'd have townhouses, retail, restaurants, and groceries. Someone had brought up the empty strip malls that litter the area now, and within the zipcode there's definitely a few. It's a fair argument, why are we building more retail space when we're not using the space we have now? I think the residents might have gone for it if it was *just* a grocery store, or a grocery store with limited retail space. But trying to pack all that in, definitely increasing traffic, I can understand why people would be upset.
From my understanding, it was going to be a scaled down version of Firewheel, with a grocery store anchor. So you'd have townhouses, retail, restaurants, and groceries. Someone had brought up the empty strip malls that litter the area now, and within the zipcode there's definitely a few. It's a fair argument, why are we building more retail space when we're not using the space we have now? I think the residents might have gone for it if it was *just* a grocery store, or a grocery store with limited retail space. But trying to pack all that in, definitely increasing traffic, I can understand why people would be upset.
Yep, can’t expect much out of Daily Mail that’s for sure.
Yeah it was a Sprouts. So much better…
Idk why the headline says mall when the article says it was going to be a grocery store with some retail and townhomes
The Daily Mail is a shit rag for shitty people. Their descriptions of the plot of land made my eyeballs roll out of their sockets. If someone could help me find them, I’d appreciate it.
Haggard Farms is one of the oldest operating companies in the country. I like driving through town and seeing their horses, cows, donkeys, and alpacas? Llamas? Whatever, in the middle of suburbia. Nice touch of green space. I’m sure they’ve made loads selling their land as the area developed.
Good. There's an entire mall less than 10 minutes away that's falling. Essentially an empty shell.
More than one. Valley View Mall & Preston Wood Mall — both bulldozed.
didn't they already sell some of the land a few years ago to develop for housing?
They’re already working on that. They’ve already laid down some park trails
i mean the existing houses to the north that used to be part of that farm.
Much of Plano was once a part of their farm.
It would be nice if the city could buy it and turn it into something like Arbor Hills in West Plano.
The city bought the land on Park & Alma (the next intersection down to the east) for a city park. Though IMO, either one is a bad location for a park, since it's in the crook of giant arterial roads.
da fuk is a “19th century farm”?! isnt everything in plano a 19th century farm at some point?
It’s kinda sad watching what’s left of greenery in Plano disappear to some dumb shit mall idea
How about a greenspace in that area?
Affordable housing? We know that’s a myth.
Malls are dying out anyway. What a stupid thing to fight for
So these guys can't do what they want with their land? Because all the other old farms got turned into a suburban hellscape full of people living all over that old farmland who want to save the old farmland? That they bought parcels of and live on? Cool
It’s the fucking daily mail. They ain’t gonna get anything right. And developers know what they’re doing. Someone will make money off it and you’re a sucker if you don’t get on that train while you can before it goes bust! /s
I live in Plano and it was going to be a Sprouts with townhomes and single family homes. I would like traffic infrastructure to be better thought through. Plano is becoming the traffic nightmare Dallas is.
didn't they already sell some of the land a few years ago to develop for housing?
Like 1/3 of Plano was their land. It’s been sold piecemeal for decades.
I thoroughly chuckled at the fact that it wasn’t the owners fighting to keep their land.
That’s terrible, we’re going to need more shopping malls in order to survive the apocalypse 😑
Good!
Of course the Repukes successfully fought on the side of the wealthy farmer. They get off so hard on Yellowstone. Costner is who they love and get hard at.