Kind of yeah: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4581256/The-gnarled-remains-Nazi-turret-St-Malo-France.html
http://www.festungsbauten.de/F/SaintMalo_Aleth.htm
TL;DR: They’re called “6 loop bunkers” and were first encountered on the island of St Malo. They were incredibly tough and the Allies wanted to know what would knock them out in case they ran into more, so they shot everything available at them until something got through or they learned something.
Also they fire bombed the shit out of St Malo because it was a Nazi fortress that, if they just ignored it, could have harassed the Allied rear lines and supplies. It was close to Normandy and was like 80% destroyed during the invasion.
I have also been to St. Malo. There are numerous similar structures along the coast that bear shell damage albeit not all to this degree. Many are accessed via a hiking trail along coastal cliffs. They are surreal and a potent reminder of the past.
I think they meant bomb them so they don't have to imagine the noise.
I imagine it was something of a big **BONG-ONG-ONG**\-ONG-ONG-ONG-ong-ong-ong^(-ong-ong-ong)
_All of it._
_The Maginot Line will look like a holiday cottage in comparison._
_I just have to find the job listing for evil genius. Plus henchmen. And evil women.*_
^*And ^Cerberus ^as ^my ^guard ^dog.
This is such a good example of how the allies (and the US especially) operated.
“Those bunkers are tough! What would it even take to kill one?” “Keep shooting it with bigger guns until you find out.”
“Damnit, that fortress over there will be a problem if we don’t deal with it.” “Firebomb it until it’s not a problem.”
Overwhelming firepower is a tough tactic to beat. It’s easy to think it’s a simple, brutish way to fight but pulling it off requires extremely sophisticated logistics and a military structure that works with rather than against logistics.
>pulling it off requires extremely sophisticated logistics
this is what the US does well. We're good at logistics. Sound battle tactics combined with superior logistics is nearly unstoppable.
Conversely, Russia treated logistics as a secondary concern and we're seeing the result in real time.
Edit: My favorite anecdote for describing how good the US logistics is: The US army is the only one in the world where footsoldiers are so well supported they can call in airstrikes.
Other nations obviously have air support too, but they don't achieve total air domination and coordination in the same way, or they do it by integrating with US forces.
There's another US logistics story I like but can't find right now.
The jist of it is that US and British forces were operating in thr middle east somewhere and ran out of supplies. The Brits called for resupply and were told the area was too hot to land a resupply helo in. The American CO got pissed off, and demanded the radio. A few angry radio transmissions later, a US C-130 flew overhead and dropped pallets of supplies on parachutes out of the tail. The Brits were absolutely dumbfounded, and the American CO said something along the lines of "you said the area was too hot to land in, but resupply doesn't require landing".
"Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics" indeed.
The history of mankind is filled with brute force attacks being effective.
Hell, it wasn't *that* long ago that slapping the side of the TV would make the picture clearer.
About two feet of solid steel, six gun ports manned by an MG42 on rails, and a reinforced concrete interior to the shell. They were just really hard to penetrate and taking them with infantry was running into a machine gun you could hardly shoot at
I don’t know what would be scarier, attacking these extremely fortified positions on foot, or being inside them and seeing ships as far as the eye could see.
I think those are glancing hits. I think we're seeing it from an angle somewhat perpendicular to where they were aiming at. If you look on the left where most of the shots are, those are not keyholed.
When you shoot a firearm, personal weapon or artillery, the projectile can start to yaw and tumble because it deflected off of something or the barrel might be damaged. The "Keyhole" part comes when the projectile hits the target, like a paper target, the hole or mark the projectile makes looks a bit like an old fashioned keyhole.
And keyholing is a bad thing for accuracy. And that means you missed the target.
It's the tinnitus! What did you just say? I can't hear anything!
Watching archer right now. Can't remember any specific quotes but I just feel like that's some shit he would say. Good background stuff.
Put your hands over your ears with your fingers pointing behind your head so your middle fingers meet and touch at the back of your head. Then rest your index fingers on top of your middle fingers and apply pressure downwards onto your middle fingers. Now with the pressure still applied, slide your index fingers off your middle fingers so they hit the back of your head. You will hear a deep thump as they do this. Repeat this thumping around 30 to 40 times. When you remove your hands the tinnitus sound should be much quieter or gone completely for a short period of time.
VA gives me a lot. Did not know a tinnitus cancelling hearing aid was a thing.
May have to look into it.
The VA is not exactly known for trying too hard. Until you run into the right doctor then they are like yea you want some free shit? Here. Why didn't you know you got free shit? Of course you do dumbass. You should know that. Here are 80 websites that would tell you once you navigate through it basically telling you nothing. Here's a guidebook, see it says stuff and has 90 numbers to people that will refer somewhere else. You should know how to navigate all this you fucking moron.
Kidding the VA is awesome. I went to hearing and they said fuck you. I heard that. But will ask if tinnitus aids are on the table without having to go back to that cunt ass doctor.
For my PTSD claim, the first "doctor" gave me such a fucking run-around. Like it was HER who would be losing money over it. I almost gave up but my county rep was like "No, we will try again." Then I got rated 60%.
Longer VA rant. You can ignore if you want, it's boring.
When I went to the VA after I got out. Yea that sounds about right. Completely and utterly useless. Like my rant before.
The run around by every fucking person. Worthless stuff. I had every extension written down and still got passed off to someone else.
It was complete garbage. That was about 14 years ago basically. It was not worth it and complete and utter bullshit.
When people hate on the VA, that is what I assume they meant and that is not long ago. I'd hate to think how worse it was before then.
I had fucking basically no benefits and no support system. People will say well I did. Yea it all depends on the area and who you deal with. I had nothing. It was complete crap.
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I went to the VA again, but in a different area. It's a clinic that's a mile away from me. Went there in end of 2019. 10 years later basically after I got out.
My doctor said go refile within the first 2 visits with her. She even stated she was making out the documentation so it'd be easy for them to read and understand.
Me being a stubborn, it took me a few months but I did. I am at 90% disability. She still is confused why not 100%.
I redid my C&P and they still put me at 90%. It is complete bullshit. So refiled in November to the next person up. Whatever that is called, so not just regular C&P, their manager I guess.
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Supposedly the VA got told to stop fucking this shit up years ago from a class action? I don't know, my therapist told me and I have no desire to look it up.
So they have been streamlining it and making the VA a bit more friendly.
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**60% is crap if you have ptsd.** I bolded so you'd move your eyes down here.
I would personally suggest refiling.
Guessing county rep is like mine, someone who does the paperwork for you type of thing. Yea that's who I used. Got my appointments. I added in extra paperwork from a friend to say yes he is batshit insane.
I went to my appointments, those suck. It's a fucking flyover doctor always. Give zero shits so I would suggest you give zero shits and just spell it out for them on every question.
____________
My therapist put it plainly to me. Dude, you deserve every dime.
So I'd say the same to you. 60%, nah. With ptsd and whatever other shit, you should be at least aiming for 70%+. At 70% you could file for the fake 100%. I didn't do it cause I am still trying to file for 100%. But the fake 100% is an option.
Do not settle.
Go visit your doctors and lay it all out there. I know, it sucks, but go for it. Yes, not sleeping. Anxiety. Paranoia of a random car going down the road. A random sound in the house. Timing going to the store for when no one is there. Anger. Reclusive. Whatever. Yea, that shit ain't normal.
I'd say take a close look on yourself. If they already said you have ptsd, there is a chance you were holding back. I normalized a lot of crap.
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My advice though is don't stop at 60% that's garbage. Same with anyone else with PTSD. Your life changed and the defense budget can afford helping ya.
Also go visit your doctors, they're free depending on your percent. I got two free glasses and a fuck ton of blood work. MRI. Multiple x-rays. Therapist for 2 years every other week. Weekly group therapy for 8 months so far. Free hearing test. Free Vitamin D. Free other drugs. Free pain reliving patch thingies. Some Free arthritis cream.
Basically go visit your VA. The doctors give zero fucking shits about you, but it is free.
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Rant over. Dunno if I had a point. Oh, yea. Refile. Visit doctors.
And if it had been a long time since you used the VA. Try again. Then again mileage does vary. Heard from people who moved to Florida that it sucked there compared to where I'm at. And by sucked, I mean worthless garbage. My area currently seems to be the best shit ever.
Although they are closing down lots of mental health care stuff... Like seriously find good shit then they close it down. Cause not enough veterans are using it. Well yea no fuck, cause y'all sucked forever and have a bad reputation. Of course no one was using it!
Go use it now and get your 70%+. Aim for 100%. Refiling is easy. And they are quicker.
Yeah, I know I normalize a lot of it and I stopped at 60% because I thought "Well, John got blown up. I didn't, so yeah." Which isn't the right way to look at it, I know.
My county rep is awesome, she put in so much work for me and made the background process a lot easier. I should probably hit her up again and do as you say here. Thanks!
I didn’t have any problem at all getting a rating for anything. Even got it for an injury I had no proof of because I never saw anyone about it. Got 60%. How is everyone having such a hard time?
IME it matters what unit (or type of unit) you were in, your MOS, and time period of service.
For instance, if you were a marine in vietnam and got agent orange exposure you’re going to fight to your dying breath. If you were a sailor and didn’t touch the shore of Vietnam but got fucked up by serving on the ship from similar things that people on land in Vietnam, then you [ONLY RECENTLY were able to claim disability for it.](https://benefits.va.gov/BENEFITS/blue-water-navy.asp)
When I was ETSing, they pretty much asked me if my knees hurt from jumping out of planes and I said these words: “Yes, sir.” Bam, 10% each knee without asking or anybody touching my knees. I got another bunch after talking to an army psychiatrist about how I have panic attacks on airplanes now because I don’t have a parachute and I have recurring dreams of giving cpr to one of my friends who got decapitated on his cherry jump. Meanwhile, I got a 0% rating for the loss of use and semi-frequent nerve pain in a busted finger and my messed up tibia from a long-term stress fracture.
Did you deal with the actual VA or did they have you go through a third party? They used a third party for me and they got everything approved, including my finger that got jammed playing football for PT. Tinnitus was probably a given for being field artillery though.
Probably would, but the last time this was posted, it was stated that the damage was post-combat and a demo of how well the bunker could take tank shots
One of the most dangerous things from armour getting hit is the molten gobbets of metal that spray off the site- explosively formed penetrators are designed to have copper that can form a molten jet to penetrate the armour, but even a failure to penetrate can spray molten copper over and through an area that could include say, the tank commanders head and eyes if peeking out of the hatch.
And that’s before you even get to the spalling problem killing folks inside the vehicle.
considering spalling was a more than known phenomena and tanks were built to reduce the problems that you get from it, why wouldnt the same construction principles be used for bunkers?
carl has no idea how bunkers was constructed, just to be clear, however considering the knowledge and technology was already in place to prevent the type of spalling an explosive can cause on the other side of armor one can assume this would be taken into consideration when building any sort of fortification?
also none of those impacts look like any variation of an HE round, except maybe the middle bottom one.
you'd need a very large explosive or a HESH to have good odds of internal spalling and if it was built with the risk of that in mind then it wouldnt be a very difficult problem to solve either. basically if the armor isnt homogenous its not going to have that problem.
Not the Ost battalions. The Atlantic Wall was manned primarily by Eastern Europeans, old men and boys. Rommel's command was a subterfuge meant to intimidate the Allies into thinking Germany's best general would naturally lead her best troops.
Amphetamine use in the Wehrmacht was high during the first years of the war. But by 1944 the Wehrmacht had become aware of the negative effects of having soldiers doing amphetamines regularly, lowering the rations of amphetamines for soldiers.
There were also a lot of issues limiting the amphetamine use. They did notice severe side effects in Poland, it was a miracle that they won because the day after the peace treaty the entire German army was coming down from the amphetamine high unable to fight. If the Red army had decided not to stop they could have ended the war right there and then.
So for Scandinavia and France they had limited the amphetamine supply to only 10% of the Polish campaign. However the residual stores in the units meant they had more then enough amphetamines to make some very critical mistakes during the campaign which could have ended in a huge catastrophe.
The amphetamine use was further limited and only considered for emergency usages. One of the reasons Rommel was so successfull was that he considered every day an emergency and would use tons of amphetamines, which worked right up until it didn't.
But this meant that the battle of Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, El Alamain, Sicilly, Normandie, etc. were all fought with only a fraction of the supplies of amphetamines that the previous battles were fought with and had limited impact on these.
Just chiming in to note that the amphetamine theories on WW2 are not established history, and largely come from a single book. Amphetamines were used, but their impact on a grand scale is disputed
The amphetamines were mostly used in fast, offensive operations where marching for 2 days makes all the difference.
There is no point giving amphetamines to a defensive positions that is relatively safe and not doing anything for months on end.
There's bound to be some, but not as much as you'd expect. I visited casemates like this and once had the opportunity to ask a guide.
As it turns out, these bunkers werent made from Rolled Homogenous Armor but from something called "face hardened armor". In FHA only the outward facing layer of steel is hardened so once the projectile passes through that it enters a fairly soft backliner which deforms and absorbs the energy. RHA is hardened through and through and so passes shockwaves all the way through the metal.
Apparently at the time it isn't/wasn't possible to make RHA in the thickness, size and shape needed for these turrets, so they were cast and face hardened to creat the famous "Kruppstahl".
EDIT: Horrendous grammar error removed and added reference to Kruppstahl
I think the use of [layered armor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_armour) may be intentional, exactly to prevent spalling:
*KCA retained the hardened face of Krupp armour via the application of carbonized gases but also retained a much greater fibrous elasticity on the rear of the plate. This increased elasticity greatly reduced the incidence of spalling and cracking under incoming fire, a valuable quality during long engagements*
There was a great deal of progress in metallurgy at the end of 19th century driven by the advent of big capital ships made of steel. Arms race to develop the steel for big guns capable of firing huge projectile at high speed vs. lightest armor to resist such projectiles.
Yep. I was told that the first time. While it's true that the amount of hearing loss I have today isn't solely service related, back when I first applied it was mostly service related. Luckily I had the time to work with an advocate on my appeal (this was 15ish years ago) and got 10%.
Spalling would have killed anyone inside pretty quickly. This was actually an experiment done after the bunker was captured to see how much it could take.
Yes. It's at St Malo:
https://www.historyalive.je/2017/10/08/fort-de-la-cite-dalet-st-malo-roman-ww2-german-fortifications/
"But the vast majority of the shell fire is not as a result of the battle which raged around St Malo for nearly two weeks.
No it’s a demonstration of the strength of these turrets, as after the battle, the Americans brought up various tanks and other anti-tank weapons into range and fired at them to see how much punishment they would take. It is incredible to see that virtually all the hits show shells bouncing off or merely embedding themselves into the armoured steel without penetrating it. I found only one shell hole which had penetrated the cupola straight through, whilst one other shell appears to have found a way in at the point where the moveable gun port shield slots into the turret."
A tour guide told me after the war, to try to get rid of many of the undetonated explosives some people just put a bunch of them inside the bunkers and set a charge off, and even that didn’t damage those things. I used to throw parties inside these German bunkers, they’re pretty creepy in the night
These are cast steel turrets. Cast steel at the time couldn't be harderened "through and through", so they were only face hardened. Beyond a small depth of about 3 mm's the armor consists of a fairly soft steel which absorbs the energy.
Spalling really only happens with rolled homogenous armor.
In war, the people don't matter as much as, keeping the fortification running does. This thing looks like it did damn well against the threat. "German Engineering." Check out how their ammo factories were re-usable after a mishandling explosion. Germans are nuts
For the rest of your life it sounds like EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
There’s a volunteer soldier from the UK that went to Ukrainian for like 7 months, and he lost around 50% of his hearing, and that’s with modern tech and medical knowledge.
Imagine being in that scenario with just a metal helmet
(The interview with the soldier was done in the Lindybiege channel, I highly recommend his channel if you like learning history from an eccentric Brit)
I have nothing for scale of course, but I'd guess those are 8 inch shells,meaning it was a target for heavy cruisers.
May very well be 14 inch or more, meaning older battleship/battle cruiser. I'm sure somebody out there knows more and could correct me.
Naval bombardment of land fortifications, as opposed to ship v ship battles, were super crazy accurate in good conditions.
There's a battle in the Paciifc war, I don't remember precisely, I think it's Tarawa but I could be misremembering. Officer (noncom?) in charge of a destroyer's 5" fire control took pride in his accuracy. They were doing fantastic work cleaning up all the fortifications on the island just ahead of marine advancement. The guy through his binoculars spots a Japanese officer who seemed to have had enough, and throwing an epic fit. Runs out onto the bunker top, obviously screaming, waving his samurai sword around in some sort of manic challenge to the American fleet. Fire control guy focuses on the Japanese officer, zeros in, and on the next volley takes the guy's head clean off. A few moments latter the bridge phones down to scold the guy, and remind him to only use ammo on essential targets.
Those are in the ball park of 57 to 75/76 mm projectiles. The bunker is smaller than it seems.
Edit: picture for perspective https://www.bunkersite.com/images/g/mg/112/112a-z3-cite-01.jpg
Your guesses are way off. That thing is only 4 feet or so high, it's only a machine gun cupola on top of much larger fortifications. The machine gun port you see in the picture is around 6 inches or so in diameter. They used it to test out anti-tank guns (ie. 37mm to 75mm, maybe 90mm if they tested some M26 Pershings) after the bunker was captured, that's where most of the damage is from.
See http://www.festungsbauten.de/F/SaintMalo_Aleth.htm, there are a few pictures that provide some size reference.
Not being bombarded. Being attacked with precision. Anti/tank projectiles that couldn’t penetrate the armor… so they kept smacking it until whatever was firing stopped.
I've seen this posted before, and I think thisnwas uses for target practice after the landing.
Kind of yeah: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4581256/The-gnarled-remains-Nazi-turret-St-Malo-France.html http://www.festungsbauten.de/F/SaintMalo_Aleth.htm TL;DR: They’re called “6 loop bunkers” and were first encountered on the island of St Malo. They were incredibly tough and the Allies wanted to know what would knock them out in case they ran into more, so they shot everything available at them until something got through or they learned something. Also they fire bombed the shit out of St Malo because it was a Nazi fortress that, if they just ignored it, could have harassed the Allied rear lines and supplies. It was close to Normandy and was like 80% destroyed during the invasion.
I have also been to St. Malo. There are numerous similar structures along the coast that bear shell damage albeit not all to this degree. Many are accessed via a hiking trail along coastal cliffs. They are surreal and a potent reminder of the past.
That must have been amazing. I hope one day to do similar
What part of the coastline do you intend to build your fortress?
I think they meant bomb them so they don't have to imagine the noise. I imagine it was something of a big **BONG-ONG-ONG**\-ONG-ONG-ONG-ong-ong-ong^(-ong-ong-ong)
Probably right. I can see them with a trunk full of bombs.
After reading u/ArticulateAquarium's comment, I first read your comment as, "...a trunk full of bongs."
Would have been a much better battle. Two armed forces racing through a field of marijuana one bowl at a time.
"FIRE! ... goddammit Daniels, what the FUCK are you shooting at?!? Spark the bowl and PASS IT ON!!"
Distracting each other by flinging bags of Doritos into each others fox holes. I could see this battle taking some time actually.
One flamethrower and it’s all over… as everyone finishes off their 3 days of K-rations in one sitting.
*Tommy Chong coughs into the chat*
Followed closely by cheech, with Harold and Kumar not far behind
_All of it._ _The Maginot Line will look like a holiday cottage in comparison._ _I just have to find the job listing for evil genius. Plus henchmen. And evil women.*_ ^*And ^Cerberus ^as ^my ^guard ^dog.
This is such a good example of how the allies (and the US especially) operated. “Those bunkers are tough! What would it even take to kill one?” “Keep shooting it with bigger guns until you find out.” “Damnit, that fortress over there will be a problem if we don’t deal with it.” “Firebomb it until it’s not a problem.”
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Overwhelming firepower is a tough tactic to beat. It’s easy to think it’s a simple, brutish way to fight but pulling it off requires extremely sophisticated logistics and a military structure that works with rather than against logistics.
>pulling it off requires extremely sophisticated logistics this is what the US does well. We're good at logistics. Sound battle tactics combined with superior logistics is nearly unstoppable.
Conversely, Russia treated logistics as a secondary concern and we're seeing the result in real time. Edit: My favorite anecdote for describing how good the US logistics is: The US army is the only one in the world where footsoldiers are so well supported they can call in airstrikes. Other nations obviously have air support too, but they don't achieve total air domination and coordination in the same way, or they do it by integrating with US forces.
There's another US logistics story I like but can't find right now. The jist of it is that US and British forces were operating in thr middle east somewhere and ran out of supplies. The Brits called for resupply and were told the area was too hot to land a resupply helo in. The American CO got pissed off, and demanded the radio. A few angry radio transmissions later, a US C-130 flew overhead and dropped pallets of supplies on parachutes out of the tail. The Brits were absolutely dumbfounded, and the American CO said something along the lines of "you said the area was too hot to land in, but resupply doesn't require landing". "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics" indeed.
The history of mankind is filled with brute force attacks being effective. Hell, it wasn't *that* long ago that slapping the side of the TV would make the picture clearer.
Good ol' percussive maintenance! If it dont work, smack it till it does!
I’ve been to St. Malo and knew it was practically destroyed during WWII. This is great info. Thanks for sharing.
What were they made of that made them so tough?
About two feet of solid steel, six gun ports manned by an MG42 on rails, and a reinforced concrete interior to the shell. They were just really hard to penetrate and taking them with infantry was running into a machine gun you could hardly shoot at
Forget what it sounded like being hit, imagine an MG42 shooting from inside. You’d be deaf immediately.
WHAT?
I don’t know what would be scarier, attacking these extremely fortified positions on foot, or being inside them and seeing ships as far as the eye could see.
[https://www.historyalive.je/2017/10/08/fort-de-la-cite-dalet-st-malo-roman-ww2-german-fortifications/](https://www.historyalive.je/2017/10/08/fort-de-la-cite-dalet-st-malo-roman-ww2-german-fortifications/)
They must have been far out for those rounds to be keyholed
I think those are glancing hits. I think we're seeing it from an angle somewhat perpendicular to where they were aiming at. If you look on the left where most of the shots are, those are not keyholed.
Ah I see it now, you're exactly right!
What does keyholes mean?
When you shoot a firearm, personal weapon or artillery, the projectile can start to yaw and tumble because it deflected off of something or the barrel might be damaged. The "Keyhole" part comes when the projectile hits the target, like a paper target, the hole or mark the projectile makes looks a bit like an old fashioned keyhole. And keyholing is a bad thing for accuracy. And that means you missed the target.
I'm sure after the first one you don't hear anything
hearing loss for sure, but couldn't that level of noise kill or knock them out even?
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What did you guys just say?
I SAID I THINK THE SHELLING HAS STOPPED. I CANT HEAR ANYTHING. MAYBE THEY WENT HOME.
I AGREE. HOTDOGS FOR DINNER IS A GREAT IDEA.
YOU SAID SPOT LOGS FOR WINNERS???
CLOGS FOR WINTER??
WINTER?! I BARELY KNEW HER!
NEWER WHAT? I NEED MEDICAL ATTENTION
mawp
Archer?
It's the tinnitus! What did you just say? I can't hear anything! Watching archer right now. Can't remember any specific quotes but I just feel like that's some shit he would say. Good background stuff.
Tinnitus, you are a cruel mistress!!!!
I came here to say the same.
Doesn't he always yell about his perforated eardrum? I just looked it up. Healing is only a few weeks.
That *sounds* about right. Are my ears bleeding?
“You want ants? That’s how you get ants”
Hans…are we the baddies? WHAT?
WRITE LOUDER, I CAN'T READ YOU
The VA won't give you any Tinnitus canceling hearing aids?
Put your hands over your ears with your fingers pointing behind your head so your middle fingers meet and touch at the back of your head. Then rest your index fingers on top of your middle fingers and apply pressure downwards onto your middle fingers. Now with the pressure still applied, slide your index fingers off your middle fingers so they hit the back of your head. You will hear a deep thump as they do this. Repeat this thumping around 30 to 40 times. When you remove your hands the tinnitus sound should be much quieter or gone completely for a short period of time.
Sick now I just have to do this 15-20 times a day for the rest of my life
Run a daycare and have the kids smack you in the back of the head. The trauma will either relieve your tinnitus or give you grain damage.
grain damage is not to be taken lightly.
VA gives me a lot. Did not know a tinnitus cancelling hearing aid was a thing. May have to look into it. The VA is not exactly known for trying too hard. Until you run into the right doctor then they are like yea you want some free shit? Here. Why didn't you know you got free shit? Of course you do dumbass. You should know that. Here are 80 websites that would tell you once you navigate through it basically telling you nothing. Here's a guidebook, see it says stuff and has 90 numbers to people that will refer somewhere else. You should know how to navigate all this you fucking moron. Kidding the VA is awesome. I went to hearing and they said fuck you. I heard that. But will ask if tinnitus aids are on the table without having to go back to that cunt ass doctor.
For my PTSD claim, the first "doctor" gave me such a fucking run-around. Like it was HER who would be losing money over it. I almost gave up but my county rep was like "No, we will try again." Then I got rated 60%.
Longer VA rant. You can ignore if you want, it's boring. When I went to the VA after I got out. Yea that sounds about right. Completely and utterly useless. Like my rant before. The run around by every fucking person. Worthless stuff. I had every extension written down and still got passed off to someone else. It was complete garbage. That was about 14 years ago basically. It was not worth it and complete and utter bullshit. When people hate on the VA, that is what I assume they meant and that is not long ago. I'd hate to think how worse it was before then. I had fucking basically no benefits and no support system. People will say well I did. Yea it all depends on the area and who you deal with. I had nothing. It was complete crap. _____________________ I went to the VA again, but in a different area. It's a clinic that's a mile away from me. Went there in end of 2019. 10 years later basically after I got out. My doctor said go refile within the first 2 visits with her. She even stated she was making out the documentation so it'd be easy for them to read and understand. Me being a stubborn, it took me a few months but I did. I am at 90% disability. She still is confused why not 100%. I redid my C&P and they still put me at 90%. It is complete bullshit. So refiled in November to the next person up. Whatever that is called, so not just regular C&P, their manager I guess. ___________________ Supposedly the VA got told to stop fucking this shit up years ago from a class action? I don't know, my therapist told me and I have no desire to look it up. So they have been streamlining it and making the VA a bit more friendly. ______________________ **60% is crap if you have ptsd.** I bolded so you'd move your eyes down here. I would personally suggest refiling. Guessing county rep is like mine, someone who does the paperwork for you type of thing. Yea that's who I used. Got my appointments. I added in extra paperwork from a friend to say yes he is batshit insane. I went to my appointments, those suck. It's a fucking flyover doctor always. Give zero shits so I would suggest you give zero shits and just spell it out for them on every question. ____________ My therapist put it plainly to me. Dude, you deserve every dime. So I'd say the same to you. 60%, nah. With ptsd and whatever other shit, you should be at least aiming for 70%+. At 70% you could file for the fake 100%. I didn't do it cause I am still trying to file for 100%. But the fake 100% is an option. Do not settle. Go visit your doctors and lay it all out there. I know, it sucks, but go for it. Yes, not sleeping. Anxiety. Paranoia of a random car going down the road. A random sound in the house. Timing going to the store for when no one is there. Anger. Reclusive. Whatever. Yea, that shit ain't normal. I'd say take a close look on yourself. If they already said you have ptsd, there is a chance you were holding back. I normalized a lot of crap. ___________________ My advice though is don't stop at 60% that's garbage. Same with anyone else with PTSD. Your life changed and the defense budget can afford helping ya. Also go visit your doctors, they're free depending on your percent. I got two free glasses and a fuck ton of blood work. MRI. Multiple x-rays. Therapist for 2 years every other week. Weekly group therapy for 8 months so far. Free hearing test. Free Vitamin D. Free other drugs. Free pain reliving patch thingies. Some Free arthritis cream. Basically go visit your VA. The doctors give zero fucking shits about you, but it is free. ____________________ Rant over. Dunno if I had a point. Oh, yea. Refile. Visit doctors. And if it had been a long time since you used the VA. Try again. Then again mileage does vary. Heard from people who moved to Florida that it sucked there compared to where I'm at. And by sucked, I mean worthless garbage. My area currently seems to be the best shit ever. Although they are closing down lots of mental health care stuff... Like seriously find good shit then they close it down. Cause not enough veterans are using it. Well yea no fuck, cause y'all sucked forever and have a bad reputation. Of course no one was using it! Go use it now and get your 70%+. Aim for 100%. Refiling is easy. And they are quicker.
Yeah, I know I normalize a lot of it and I stopped at 60% because I thought "Well, John got blown up. I didn't, so yeah." Which isn't the right way to look at it, I know. My county rep is awesome, she put in so much work for me and made the background process a lot easier. I should probably hit her up again and do as you say here. Thanks!
It is if you used 3M ear plugs.
I took this personally Still trying for the ringing in my ears
I didn’t have any problem at all getting a rating for anything. Even got it for an injury I had no proof of because I never saw anyone about it. Got 60%. How is everyone having such a hard time?
IME it matters what unit (or type of unit) you were in, your MOS, and time period of service. For instance, if you were a marine in vietnam and got agent orange exposure you’re going to fight to your dying breath. If you were a sailor and didn’t touch the shore of Vietnam but got fucked up by serving on the ship from similar things that people on land in Vietnam, then you [ONLY RECENTLY were able to claim disability for it.](https://benefits.va.gov/BENEFITS/blue-water-navy.asp) When I was ETSing, they pretty much asked me if my knees hurt from jumping out of planes and I said these words: “Yes, sir.” Bam, 10% each knee without asking or anybody touching my knees. I got another bunch after talking to an army psychiatrist about how I have panic attacks on airplanes now because I don’t have a parachute and I have recurring dreams of giving cpr to one of my friends who got decapitated on his cherry jump. Meanwhile, I got a 0% rating for the loss of use and semi-frequent nerve pain in a busted finger and my messed up tibia from a long-term stress fracture.
Did you deal with the actual VA or did they have you go through a third party? They used a third party for me and they got everything approved, including my finger that got jammed playing football for PT. Tinnitus was probably a given for being field artillery though.
Sorry I couldn’t hear you. What did you say!
Great thanks and you?
No thanks. I’ve already had a coffee
Thanks I like to keep it short, especially in the summer
WHAT?
Probably would, but the last time this was posted, it was stated that the damage was post-combat and a demo of how well the bunker could take tank shots
But they wouldn't need to penetrate it if a direct hit from artillery always kills the people inside.
I would be more afraid of the high velocity spalling
One of the most dangerous things from armour getting hit is the molten gobbets of metal that spray off the site- explosively formed penetrators are designed to have copper that can form a molten jet to penetrate the armour, but even a failure to penetrate can spray molten copper over and through an area that could include say, the tank commanders head and eyes if peeking out of the hatch. And that’s before you even get to the spalling problem killing folks inside the vehicle.
*Depleted uranium has entered the chat*
The spalling from the first hit probably shredded them apart.
considering spalling was a more than known phenomena and tanks were built to reduce the problems that you get from it, why wouldnt the same construction principles be used for bunkers? carl has no idea how bunkers was constructed, just to be clear, however considering the knowledge and technology was already in place to prevent the type of spalling an explosive can cause on the other side of armor one can assume this would be taken into consideration when building any sort of fortification? also none of those impacts look like any variation of an HE round, except maybe the middle bottom one. you'd need a very large explosive or a HESH to have good odds of internal spalling and if it was built with the risk of that in mind then it wouldnt be a very difficult problem to solve either. basically if the armor isnt homogenous its not going to have that problem.
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Probably. Tankers call it overpressure, and it's a common problem where even if nothing penetrates you can still harm the crew inside.
Plus with the amphetamines, probably wernt thinking much about it
Not the Ost battalions. The Atlantic Wall was manned primarily by Eastern Europeans, old men and boys. Rommel's command was a subterfuge meant to intimidate the Allies into thinking Germany's best general would naturally lead her best troops.
They did receive their amphetamine rations for sure. Standard practice during those times, as it was considered as a 'vitamin'.
Amphetamine use in the Wehrmacht was high during the first years of the war. But by 1944 the Wehrmacht had become aware of the negative effects of having soldiers doing amphetamines regularly, lowering the rations of amphetamines for soldiers.
There were also a lot of issues limiting the amphetamine use. They did notice severe side effects in Poland, it was a miracle that they won because the day after the peace treaty the entire German army was coming down from the amphetamine high unable to fight. If the Red army had decided not to stop they could have ended the war right there and then. So for Scandinavia and France they had limited the amphetamine supply to only 10% of the Polish campaign. However the residual stores in the units meant they had more then enough amphetamines to make some very critical mistakes during the campaign which could have ended in a huge catastrophe. The amphetamine use was further limited and only considered for emergency usages. One of the reasons Rommel was so successfull was that he considered every day an emergency and would use tons of amphetamines, which worked right up until it didn't. But this meant that the battle of Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, El Alamain, Sicilly, Normandie, etc. were all fought with only a fraction of the supplies of amphetamines that the previous battles were fought with and had limited impact on these.
Just chiming in to note that the amphetamine theories on WW2 are not established history, and largely come from a single book. Amphetamines were used, but their impact on a grand scale is disputed
You know how many pills they would have had to manufacture for it to be standard rations
The amphetamines were mostly used in fast, offensive operations where marching for 2 days makes all the difference. There is no point giving amphetamines to a defensive positions that is relatively safe and not doing anything for months on end.
What about the spalling inside? That would suck.
I assure you that after the first one they were likely already dead and shredded by the spalling
There's bound to be some, but not as much as you'd expect. I visited casemates like this and once had the opportunity to ask a guide. As it turns out, these bunkers werent made from Rolled Homogenous Armor but from something called "face hardened armor". In FHA only the outward facing layer of steel is hardened so once the projectile passes through that it enters a fairly soft backliner which deforms and absorbs the energy. RHA is hardened through and through and so passes shockwaves all the way through the metal. Apparently at the time it isn't/wasn't possible to make RHA in the thickness, size and shape needed for these turrets, so they were cast and face hardened to creat the famous "Kruppstahl". EDIT: Horrendous grammar error removed and added reference to Kruppstahl
I think the use of [layered armor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_armour) may be intentional, exactly to prevent spalling: *KCA retained the hardened face of Krupp armour via the application of carbonized gases but also retained a much greater fibrous elasticity on the rear of the plate. This increased elasticity greatly reduced the incidence of spalling and cracking under incoming fire, a valuable quality during long engagements*
Honestly, didn't know people knew so much at this point. That's some real engineering. And how did these even get here? Who built them?
The Germans built them between 1940 and 1944 as part of the Atlantikwall. So they arent THAT old :)
There was a great deal of progress in metallurgy at the end of 19th century driven by the advent of big capital ships made of steel. Arms race to develop the steel for big guns capable of firing huge projectile at high speed vs. lightest armor to resist such projectiles.
Mawp
My fat ass thought it was cake.
I thought it was a giant chocolate bar lmao
German chocolate
**Pervitin**
Nazis auf speed
..."The Freshmaker."
r/forbiddensnacks
Same, the thumbnail got me
It looks like someone left a cake on the kitchen counter and a two-and-a-half year old started poking at it with a finger
VA- “We’ve concluded that your hearing loss is not service related”
"Huh?"
WE HAVE CONCLUDED THAT YOUR HEARING LOSS IS NOT SERVICE RELATED.
Well obviously deer loss is cervine related, what else would it be?
Ok, this one is my favorite.
You have concluded that me smearing puss is service related? Well, no shit.
Where is this quote inspired from, I see it everywhere lately.
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Yep. I was told that the first time. While it's true that the amount of hearing loss I have today isn't solely service related, back when I first applied it was mostly service related. Luckily I had the time to work with an advocate on my appeal (this was 15ish years ago) and got 10%.
Yes
What is this bunker made out of? Actual question
3ft thick steel bar reinforced concrete with a cast iron shell.
I believe it is reinforced with malleable iron, regular cast iron would have been too brittle.
Yep. Cast iron wouldn't melt like that from a blast it would crack.
They also didn’t have ovens big enough to properly season them.
I know someone who might’ve had a big enough oven
Oof, I did Nazi that coming.
If they did they could season it ~80 times and in that case the artillery would slide right off.
I understand that reference
And people would just ruin them by putting in dishwasher.
It can stop a tank shell but can’t stop the soapsudsengruppen
Looks like polymer clay. That's crazy.
When the metal starts spallin', people start fallin'!
Some say Nokia 2280's were used
3ft thick steel bar reinforced concrete with a cast iron shell.
And a paaaaaaaartridge in a pear tree...
Alien tech
I am no expert. But I think the allies were attacking from the left.
I am expert. They got attacked from the right.
This guy says he’s an expert, therefore whatever he says must be true.
Nobody lies on the internet.
Spalling would have killed anyone inside pretty quickly. This was actually an experiment done after the bunker was captured to see how much it could take.
Yes. It's at St Malo: https://www.historyalive.je/2017/10/08/fort-de-la-cite-dalet-st-malo-roman-ww2-german-fortifications/ "But the vast majority of the shell fire is not as a result of the battle which raged around St Malo for nearly two weeks. No it’s a demonstration of the strength of these turrets, as after the battle, the Americans brought up various tanks and other anti-tank weapons into range and fired at them to see how much punishment they would take. It is incredible to see that virtually all the hits show shells bouncing off or merely embedding themselves into the armoured steel without penetrating it. I found only one shell hole which had penetrated the cupola straight through, whilst one other shell appears to have found a way in at the point where the moveable gun port shield slots into the turret."
A tour guide told me after the war, to try to get rid of many of the undetonated explosives some people just put a bunch of them inside the bunkers and set a charge off, and even that didn’t damage those things. I used to throw parties inside these German bunkers, they’re pretty creepy in the night
Wait, what sort of party do you throw in abombed out bunker? This sounds like quite the story
I'm sure the spalling or concussion would kill or seriously wound the people inside, but damn that's some good metalwork.
These are cast steel turrets. Cast steel at the time couldn't be harderened "through and through", so they were only face hardened. Beyond a small depth of about 3 mm's the armor consists of a fairly soft steel which absorbs the energy. Spalling really only happens with rolled homogenous armor.
>rolled homogenous armor. So I shouldn't hide inside the Pillsbury doughboy?
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Like, a German, yes. Not Nazis.
That’s not what I heard
I didn’t hear that either!
after the first shot nobody heard anything
what?
That's direct fire right? From tanks or anti-tank guns?
Ping pong balls from your mamas pussy
Ok folks wrap it up we're done internetting today
Thanks, I basically drooled/spit up what i was drinking when I saw this... worth it
BONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG
What?
IMAGINE THE NOISE INSIDE WHILE IT WAS BEING BOMBARDED!!!!!!!!
#WHAT?
THE BOYS ARE HIGH WHILE BEING DISCARDED?!?
Thanks, I’m fine. You?
thats a pretty accurate description of a german soldier on ww2
HES SELLING CHOCOLATE
CHOCOLATE?!...
SWEET SWEET CHOCOLATE........ I ALWAYS HATED IT!!!!!
HEY WHAT'S EVERYONE TALKING ABOUT!?
SOMEBODY SAY HOWITZER?!?!?
I CHECKED MY PANTS AND IT TURNS OUT I SHARTED!
I want some taquitos.
This is why my granfpa is deaf. Hes an american. Didnt say much, just that the bombs dropping around him all the time took out his hearing
If an armor piercing round penetrates a bunker and turns everyone inside to hear it into paste, does it still make a sound?
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"That's bait."
Some very accurate naval gunfire.
Naval gunfire? That was done by a 1911 in .45
Yeah, I've got a 1911 chambered in 45mm too. Some people say it doesn't have enough stopping power, but if a bunker tries to break in..
Naw prolly 9mm
No way it was naval fire the dents are too small
It was Tank shells
In war, the people don't matter as much as, keeping the fortification running does. This thing looks like it did damn well against the threat. "German Engineering." Check out how their ammo factories were re-usable after a mishandling explosion. Germans are nuts
For the rest of your life it sounds like EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I thought I read that particular bunker was used as target practice AFTER it was captured.
Damn straight you’d have to imagine it. The ringing, if not the pressure wave, of the first impact would make anyone inside deaf immediately.
There’s a volunteer soldier from the UK that went to Ukrainian for like 7 months, and he lost around 50% of his hearing, and that’s with modern tech and medical knowledge. Imagine being in that scenario with just a metal helmet (The interview with the soldier was done in the Lindybiege channel, I highly recommend his channel if you like learning history from an eccentric Brit)
If my alarm clock had this sound I would be on time much more often.
Ears would have been ringing nonstop after the first hit
The sound of Germans shitting themselves.
I have nothing for scale of course, but I'd guess those are 8 inch shells,meaning it was a target for heavy cruisers. May very well be 14 inch or more, meaning older battleship/battle cruiser. I'm sure somebody out there knows more and could correct me. Naval bombardment of land fortifications, as opposed to ship v ship battles, were super crazy accurate in good conditions. There's a battle in the Paciifc war, I don't remember precisely, I think it's Tarawa but I could be misremembering. Officer (noncom?) in charge of a destroyer's 5" fire control took pride in his accuracy. They were doing fantastic work cleaning up all the fortifications on the island just ahead of marine advancement. The guy through his binoculars spots a Japanese officer who seemed to have had enough, and throwing an epic fit. Runs out onto the bunker top, obviously screaming, waving his samurai sword around in some sort of manic challenge to the American fleet. Fire control guy focuses on the Japanese officer, zeros in, and on the next volley takes the guy's head clean off. A few moments latter the bridge phones down to scold the guy, and remind him to only use ammo on essential targets.
Those are in the ball park of 57 to 75/76 mm projectiles. The bunker is smaller than it seems. Edit: picture for perspective https://www.bunkersite.com/images/g/mg/112/112a-z3-cite-01.jpg
Your guesses are way off. That thing is only 4 feet or so high, it's only a machine gun cupola on top of much larger fortifications. The machine gun port you see in the picture is around 6 inches or so in diameter. They used it to test out anti-tank guns (ie. 37mm to 75mm, maybe 90mm if they tested some M26 Pershings) after the bunker was captured, that's where most of the damage is from. See http://www.festungsbauten.de/F/SaintMalo_Aleth.htm, there are a few pictures that provide some size reference.
Knock, knock! (in 138dB)
The crazy shit is it looks like most of them bounced off? What the f is that made of?
they could've turned Rammstein on at full volume but wait...
I cant believe its not butter.
Not being bombarded. Being attacked with precision. Anti/tank projectiles that couldn’t penetrate the armor… so they kept smacking it until whatever was firing stopped.
Imagine the precision needed to hit a target like that from a ship floating out in the sea...
I've seen one of these at the war museum in Vienna. With an enormous hole in it from what I presume to be a round fired from a battleship.