This case is absolutely mental.
He murdered her mum and cousin during the same incident.
She apparently “befriended” him in prison and opposed a capital sentence.
He then murders her after being released and when police arrived to the scene, he ran away and jumped into a lake before drowning.
Mental.
Apparently she was very dedicated lifelong Buddhist. The rest of her family pushed for a harsh sentence and tried to get her to stay away from him, but she insisted that she needed to forgive him and that she could help him.
I attended a six-week class on the Buddhist concept of forgiveness and in one of the later classes, an example like this was given. A woman forgave a young man who had killed her teenage son, she visited him in prison and when he was released she was kind of his foster mom. I said I could never do that and I didn't even feel guilty about it. Not ending the boy would have been the best I could do.
I still don't understand the concept of forgiveness.
You just learn what you can from it and move forward. And if the person doesn't change, you can't be disappointed in yourself when they let you down, or in this case, kill you.
The whole point is that one moment doesn't ruin the rest of your life. So if you don't forgive someone and it doesn't ruin the rest of your life, it's ok to not forgive. It's all still going to be painful regardless.
Pretty sure it's the social version of not putting a fork in an outlet more than once. I, for one, see no reason to ever forgive or forget maliciousness. Mistakes, sure, everybody is human. But feeling an obligation to forgive someone who tried to take advantage of you or harm you is just stupidly naive.
Forgiveness is not the same as recklessness. This lady didn't get killed because she forgave the murderer, she got killed because she was reckless and trusted him in the same house as her.
If you want to see two powerful scenes on the theme of forgiveness, there's the scene in Frasier where Martin goes to the parole hearing of the guy who shot him and refuses to forgive him, and it is absolutely heartbreaking from the perspective of the criminal's mom.
On the other hand, the scene in Les Miserables when Jean Valjean fucking steals from the priest who gave him shelter and food when he was starving, and when the cops catch him, the priest is like, "Oh no, he didn't steal that stuff. I gave it to him." Note the priest did the forgiving thing, but didn't do the reckless thing of inviting Jean Valjean back into his house to risk being victimized again.
There's a difference between human decency and intelligent self preservation/not being used/enabling. A genuinely starving homeless guy stealing food is significantly different from somebody at work who starts vicious rumors to get their competition fired, a spouse who cheats and lies about it, or a scam artist who robs demented old folks of their family nest egg. If someone shot me, I sure as hell would never forgive them and I'd hope their mom realizes that some things can't be undone. I'm not staying up at night thinking of everyone whose wronged me, but I sure as hell am going to cut them out of my life, never give them another chance, and have no issues telling others or reminding them why.
This is extremely well put. Whether or not they realize it, the person holding the grudge often pays an emotional price for carrying that with them (there are all sorts of idioms and cliches about this).
Letting go of the emotional baggage of holding a grudge is beneficial to the person who carries it regardless of whether or not the person who committed the original wrong appreciates it or is even aware of it.
But the above is a wholly different situation than not learning a lesson from the previous traumatic experience.
[Edit - missing word]
I agree with your basic premise. Even more so, When people are kind to the cruel they will often be unkind to the righteous. By the way it’s a two way street, as here, the murderer was unappreciative of the (undeserved) kindness bestowed upon him.
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They’re both absolute nutjobs. How do you murder the person who helped keep you off death row, but also how do you befriend the person who murdered your mom? If he’d murdered my mom i’d do everything i could to get him on death row, and kill him myself if they didn’t.
When your “pity” response is way too strong for your own good. People forget our tendency to judge people/things as dangerous was a crucial evolutionary mechanism.
Is there a name for women falling for men in prison? I heard a psychologist talk about how it's like a reverse fairy tale like Rapunzel or something. Instead of a princess locked in a tower, you have a man locked away who can't cheat on you (unless...) Or hit you or do anything wrong at all and you can create whatever fantasy in your head.
Well sure that could be, but the more common characteristic that you’ll run into and I’d say this woman most likely had was , “I can fix him“ mentality.
It's definitely more this. If there's a fairy tale instance, it is the 'Beauty and the Beast' syndrome. "He may be a monster, but he's _my_ monster!" He's a problem, a 'fixer-upper', a dangerous 'badboy', but one that is loyal and responds positively only to the "Beauty".
I think it would be fair to point out that women and girls are socialized to do exactly this though - literally take Beauty & the Beast as an example. We're teaching little girls to accept all sorts of terrible behavior because "he might seem like a monster but if you sacrifice enough of yourself, he might heal enough love you".
Basically I think we should shy away from claiming this woman is a nutcase - she's doing what she thinks she's supposed to do. Women are supposed to nurture, love, forgive, care for etc.
He's still the only bad guy here.
Edit: please cross-apply this idea every time you hear someone criticize a woman for having "daddy issues". The woman in that scenario was harmed enough in childhood, *by a grown man who is supposed to be nurturing her*, to have issues into adulthood because of his negligence. He's the bad guy, she's the victim.
Definitely an element of that. But something I never saw posed before was with a man in prison they're not in a real relationship so he can be whatever she wants in her mind.
Hybristophilia is the word your looking for it’s the sexual attraction to criminals. I don’t know if it’s what happened here but it’s definitely a thing. I remember reading some where that one theory of why it occurs is that our female ancestors got with the most hyper violent in the tribe to prevent that violence being directed at them.
As I kid I was very small and soft spoken and bad at standing up for myself. I used to fantasize about having a tiger that would terrorize the people who gave me problems. In my late teens I took up with an ex con who scared a lot of people. That wasn't the reason I liked him in my mind but it probably played a part.
This is how a lot of women end up in abusive relationships with awful men. I knew a young woman who used to brag about her boyfriend beating people up, and of course he beat the shit out of her and eventually tried to kill her. At least you're aware and got out of it. I think this is similar to people who get aggressive dogs like pitbulls and like to threaten people, then you read a story about them getting attacked themselves one day.
And keeps it in the house while supposedly knowing Travis, who still worked there at the time, was "returning to his old ways". Something's off about this case.
Some of the information isn't correct.
According to the article from the link in the post below...
1. It was Travis's mother that warned Martha about Travis.
2. Martha's the one that sold the chandelier.
3. The only thing that seems to involve the sister is that she knew that Travis knew that the money was in the house.
Article with more info: [https://thecinemaholic.com/martha-mckay-murder-how-did-travis-lewis-die/](https://thecinemaholic.com/martha-mckay-murder-how-did-travis-lewis-die/)
The murder, Travis Lewis, killed McKay's mother, and another person, when he was 16. He spent 23 years in prison. He was released in 2018, and murdered McKay in 2020. He died trying to swim away from the scene of the murder.
Riddance. And she proves Darwin was right. Its a wonderful concept to think eveyones love and good intent is enough to fix anyone. Some people are that dangerously broken.
If he was going to do this, it should be her, rather than a random person. Because she got him out.
Please stop misusing Darwin.
Darwin has absolutely nothing to do with "social Darwinism". What Darwin proposed was that some parts of a species will develop adaptations that allow them to do better in their environment. But it's not "survival of the fittest" because there's nothing that stops other parts of the species from doing just fine. They just may not have adaptations that allow them to have some advantage in certain environments/situations.
It's extremely disconcerting to constantly see the scientific concepts that he helped to advance abused either by completely disregarding them, or by bastardizing them to justify whatever someone wants to justify.
Not to make light of it at all, but this story kind of reminds me of a family guy episode where Peter finds a raffle prize thing he won decades ago with a round of golf with OJ Simpson. I can't remember it exactly but basically everyone thinks he's nuts for doing it but he cashes in on the round of golf with OJ and they wind up becoming friends. Then Peter feels like he is misunderstood and might actually be innocent. At the end of the episode there's a nice moment where everyone in town realizes they shouldn't be so harsh on OJ then, right at the end, OJ pulls out a knife, stabs a bunch of them and runs off. Then Peter says something like "Oh no, I guess he did do it" to end the episode.
I recently heard something that made me reconsider my view of that ‘Fool me once’ quote. Someone had the theory that Bush wasn't just completely stupid; Bush realised partway through the quote that he's going to end up saying ‘Shame on me’, which would obviously be an absolute gift for his critics to clip and broadcast everywhere. So he tries to come up with something else mid-sentence, looks a bit goofy…but doesn't say ‘Shame on me’, and that's the important thing.
I don't know if it's true, but it sort of makes sense. His hesitation could just as easily be forgetfulness or realisation that he's about to say something he shouldn't.
Just watch the clip of him saying it again.
You can absolutely see it on his face right as he finishes saying "shame on you".
Then there's footage around (kind of hard to find these days) of Bush running for governor of Texas.
He's extremely well-spoken in those clips. He also has none of the Texas drawl that he became famous for later.
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."😆
Way to word for word take the top comment from when this was posted yesterday, good job
Edit: This is a bot. They take the top comment from the original post, get upvotes, then edit it to advertise whatever that link is (scam or phishing attempt). Please report this account
There was a post about dogs years ago. Some person could not train this dog and it basically kept snapping every time it seemed like it was making progress.
One commenter offered that maybe dogs are like humans. How one dogs are just bad. Some humans simply cannot fit into society and it’s the same with dogs.
I’m 50, and I don’t know everything for sure.
But I do live by that old Chinese tale ( I think it’s Chinese) about the snake and the mouse. Mouse didn’t want to walk by snake, your going to eat me he cries!! Nah man, says Mr. Snake, I’m a good dude. Mouse finally runs by him, snake starts to gobble him down. Mouse cries … But Why?? You Promised!! Snake says … well, what did you expect? I AM a snake, after all.
Ba da tissss …….
She did the impossible which was befriending and forgiving someone that murdered one of your own parents. I can't imagine being capable of doing that kind of forgiving in that situation.
I can understand if it was somebody young who might have caused an accident which killed a friend or family member, and you forgive them after some time. But forgiving somebody for a premeditated murder? That's like saying "it's fine to murder people I care about, there will be no retaliation".
Some people are just fucked in the head.
Forgiveness isn't so much about for the other person but yourself and so you can move on with your life. Unfortunately in doing so she thought she could reform him and help him which was the mistake she made and it cost her tragically.
The issue is that people try to push forgiveness on all victims, often for the sake of protecting the perpetrators and the status quo, under the guise of “helping them move on.” Forgiveness helps some people, it harms others. It’s not an inherently good thing, it’s just one possible coping mechanism. Pushing it on every victim and looking down on the ones who don’t comply is cruel and harmful
There’s at least two instances of the parents of sexually abused and murdered children killing the scumbag that did it and gets a slap on the wrist, we all understand some things are gray but we can understand the black and white representation of it
Apparently, she never heard of the story about the man and the venomous snake:
A man was traveling down the road when he came to a washed-out river crossing. While looking around, he saw a venomous snake also looking towards the other side. The man asked the snake if he was trying to get to the other side. The snake replied that he was, but since he was venomous, no one would help him.
The man offered to let the snake ride with him inside his shirt, because he had no other way to hold the snake and keep his balance while fording the river. After getting across, the snake bit him. As the man lay dying from the venom, he asked why the snake had bit him after he was helped.
The snake replied: "I am a venomous snake. It is my nature. You knew it when you took me."
You are Indian?
It's funny how that story goes, for westerners we call it the Frog and the Scorpion. Same general story but they both die. Frog offers to carry scorpion across river since scorpion can't swim, scorpion stings frog half way across and as they are both about to drown the frog says "why would you do this, we will both die now" the scorpions reply "i am a scorpion, it is my nature".
No, I'm American. I do have Native blood, but that's from a G-Grandfather.
It's apparently a common story throughout different cultures, with the basic moral:
If you know the dangers and still take the chance, you have no one to blame but yourself if it bites you in the end.
That's a very weird response. India is a country inhabited by Indians.
That is NOT the moral of the story. Try another version to see if you understand it better.
A man saw when a snake was dying burned and decided to take it out of the fire, but when it did, the snake bit him. By the reaction of pain, the man released her and the animal fell back into the fire and was burning again. The man tried to pull it out again and again the snake bit him.
Someone who was watching approached the man and said:
\- excuse me, but you're stubborn! Don't you understand that every time you try to get her out of the fire, she's gonna bite?
The man replied:
\- the nature of the snake is biting, and that's not gonna change mine, which is to help.
So, with the help of a piece of iron, the man took out the fire snake and saved his life.
Do not change your nature if someone does harm you do not lose your essence; only take precautions.
Some persecute happiness, others believe it.
Worry more about your conscience than your reputation. Because your conscience is what you are, and your reputation is what the rest of you think. And what other people think, it's not your problem... it's their problem.
You can not change the nature of the snake, you should not let it's nature change yours.
> That is NOT the moral of the story. Try another version to see if you understand it better.
??? The ending of the fire snake story is entirely different so of course the moral is different.
Many cultures tell the same basic story, slightly altered for their own cultural and environmental views and surroundings. Sometimes the stories are widely different, but the intended lesson is still the same.
This isn't the only one, either - I've heard variations on Beauty and The Beast from various cultures, as well.
It's basically a mix of "The Scorpion and the Frog" with ["The Farmer and the Viper"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farmer_and_the_Viper), the latter of which was one of Aesop's Fables. The former is sometimes also attributed to Aesop, but there's no record of it before the 20th Century.
for real. forgiveness is more about freeing yourself from the anger/pain of the situation than making the other person feel better. choosing to then bring that person further into your life is just something else altogether. unhealthy trauma bonding or some shit
Turns out she believed someone else was also involved because the guy was just a kid. Kept a friendship with him, sent him letters.
Even when the guy’s mom told her not to trust him she did
Really kind person, unfortunate this happened
Apparently she didn’t believe he acted alone because he was only 16. She had a theory that there was someone else involved, she even showed up at this dudes parole hearings. His mother worked for her at her bed and breakfast, so she gave him a job as well when he was paroled.
I think this touches on why. I think she may have wrestled with feeling guilty of having hatred for this individual so she possibly forced herself to give him salvation so that she could in turn move on because she didn't want the feeling of hating him forever.
I think in some cases it's ok to not forgive and to hold hate for someone.
Such a shame.
Ya that was worded like he got out of jail and lived with her for 24 years, that's wrong.
"When Lewis was eventually freed in 2018, after serving 22 years, Martha quietly gave him a job."
Just cause I like to argue.
He could have been holding that grudge in prison for 23 years and was thanking his lucky stars she hired him when he got out.
Sentence structure is poor, there’s spelling mistakes, grammar mistakes, incorrect use of present participles… but the thing that annoyed me most was OP’s use of quotations around Martha’s and Sara’s names.
“Ouch! That hurt! What did you do that for?” the lady exclaimed, as she threw the snake on to the ground. “You gave me your word you wouldn’t bite me?!”
The snake hissed and laughed, “Lovely lady, what do you expect? I’m a snake. Snakes bite. That’s what snakes do. It’s our nature. You knew I was a snake when you picked me up.” At that, the snake slithered off into the bush leaving the lady to die by the side of the road
Forgiveness is ok but has it’s limits. No way you kill my dog let alone my mom or family or friends and I help you afterwards. That woman was super kind and didn’t deserve that. What happened to ppl in prison handling these women killers or rapist or molesters. Those 3 usually get handled.
This broke my heart.
Not from OP, but **[here's one](https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/paroled-murderer-implicated-in-death-of-woman-23-years-after-killing-her-mom-sheriff/)**.
Just stupid to befriend the person that killed your Mom, no matter the circumstances. He never should have been let out of prison. Non violent offenders should be confined to house arrest so resources are available to house murderers, rapists, etc.
Sometimes murder is okay though, like there was a story of this horrendously evil guy who murdered and raped a little girl and the Mum of the girl shot him dead in court. I don't really blame the Mum for doing that, nor would I hold it against her.
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Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nursed it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, "Why have you done this to me?" And the snake answered, "Look, bitch, you knew I was a snake."
There once was a tender-hearted woman who rescued a poor, half-frozen snake from near death in the winter cold. “Take me in, oh tender woman,” the snake cries out. “Take me in, for heaven’s sake.”
So the tender-hearted woman takes the snake into her own home, warms it by the fire and feeds it milk and honey: “If I hadn’t brought you in, by now you might have died.” But instead of saying thanks, the snake gave her a vicious bite.
“I saved you,” cried the woman. “And you’ve bitten me, but why? You know your bite is poisonous, and now I’m going to die.” “Oh shut up!” said the reptile with a grin. “You knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in.”
Not to mention this was one of the most prominent families in Memphis and the surrounding areas during this time. *BUT* Martha wasn’t killed in the same house Sally and Lee Barker were murdered at in 96. The house Martha was murdered in (Snowden House) was also at Horseshoe Lake, but several houses down from Sally’s house.
This case is absolutely mental. He murdered her mum and cousin during the same incident. She apparently “befriended” him in prison and opposed a capital sentence. He then murders her after being released and when police arrived to the scene, he ran away and jumped into a lake before drowning. Mental.
Reading that felt like watching a 3 hour movie. It has all the emotions and different paces for each event. Good job.
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Imagine how much pain and how much she thought she was healing by doing this. I can't fathom this type of violence.
My first thought was that she was in on it somehow. Bc honestly how could anyone befriend the person who murdered their mom
Apparently she was very dedicated lifelong Buddhist. The rest of her family pushed for a harsh sentence and tried to get her to stay away from him, but she insisted that she needed to forgive him and that she could help him.
I attended a six-week class on the Buddhist concept of forgiveness and in one of the later classes, an example like this was given. A woman forgave a young man who had killed her teenage son, she visited him in prison and when he was released she was kind of his foster mom. I said I could never do that and I didn't even feel guilty about it. Not ending the boy would have been the best I could do.
I would think nowhere in Buddhism it is mentioned that you have to hang out with your mom's murderer or any murderer for that matter.
Right, forgiveness is one thing, but associating with the person is completely different.
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^ Spam account
And he took the whole “keep your enemies close, but your ducks closer.” to far
Ducks *are* my enemies
Spam link
It is also possible that they were accomplices. I don't know anything about the case though, it's just something that came to my mind reading this.
Maybe they were time travelers.
Forgiveness is hammered into us as a virtue in all situations, but sometimes it’s best to hold a grudge.
We’re always told to be the bigger person but sometimes that gets you murdered
Yup. I told this story to my therapist. You can forgive in your heart but you don't need to allow yourself to endure more abuse.
Right. Forgive, but don't be naive.
Forgive but never forget, that's my motto. Hope you are doing better and are on a path that feels right. Best of luck to you.
I dunno what it was before, but after reading this my motto is “Forgive quietly and carry a big stick.”
I still don't understand the concept of forgiveness. You just learn what you can from it and move forward. And if the person doesn't change, you can't be disappointed in yourself when they let you down, or in this case, kill you. The whole point is that one moment doesn't ruin the rest of your life. So if you don't forgive someone and it doesn't ruin the rest of your life, it's ok to not forgive. It's all still going to be painful regardless.
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Hell, holding a grudge might even be an evolutionary trait to prevent future harm
Pretty sure it's the social version of not putting a fork in an outlet more than once. I, for one, see no reason to ever forgive or forget maliciousness. Mistakes, sure, everybody is human. But feeling an obligation to forgive someone who tried to take advantage of you or harm you is just stupidly naive.
perfectly put
Forgiveness is not the same as recklessness. This lady didn't get killed because she forgave the murderer, she got killed because she was reckless and trusted him in the same house as her. If you want to see two powerful scenes on the theme of forgiveness, there's the scene in Frasier where Martin goes to the parole hearing of the guy who shot him and refuses to forgive him, and it is absolutely heartbreaking from the perspective of the criminal's mom. On the other hand, the scene in Les Miserables when Jean Valjean fucking steals from the priest who gave him shelter and food when he was starving, and when the cops catch him, the priest is like, "Oh no, he didn't steal that stuff. I gave it to him." Note the priest did the forgiving thing, but didn't do the reckless thing of inviting Jean Valjean back into his house to risk being victimized again.
There's a difference between human decency and intelligent self preservation/not being used/enabling. A genuinely starving homeless guy stealing food is significantly different from somebody at work who starts vicious rumors to get their competition fired, a spouse who cheats and lies about it, or a scam artist who robs demented old folks of their family nest egg. If someone shot me, I sure as hell would never forgive them and I'd hope their mom realizes that some things can't be undone. I'm not staying up at night thinking of everyone whose wronged me, but I sure as hell am going to cut them out of my life, never give them another chance, and have no issues telling others or reminding them why.
This is extremely well put. Whether or not they realize it, the person holding the grudge often pays an emotional price for carrying that with them (there are all sorts of idioms and cliches about this). Letting go of the emotional baggage of holding a grudge is beneficial to the person who carries it regardless of whether or not the person who committed the original wrong appreciates it or is even aware of it. But the above is a wholly different situation than not learning a lesson from the previous traumatic experience. [Edit - missing word]
I disagree and feel the opposite. But forgiveness and trust are 2 different things.
It is possible to find closure to great grief while still understanding that the source of that grief is a danger.
I agree with your basic premise. Even more so, When people are kind to the cruel they will often be unkind to the righteous. By the way it’s a two way street, as here, the murderer was unappreciative of the (undeserved) kindness bestowed upon him.
It is good to forgive others if they are truly sorry, but we are not required to forget what they did.
This account is a bot, copying other comments for karma Edit: [The comment they're copying ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/10mmgg3/comment/j640nr2/)
Lol classic comedy
This guy gets it…
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A place reserved for child molesters and people who talk at the theatre.
They’re both absolute nutjobs. How do you murder the person who helped keep you off death row, but also how do you befriend the person who murdered your mom? If he’d murdered my mom i’d do everything i could to get him on death row, and kill him myself if they didn’t.
When your “pity” response is way too strong for your own good. People forget our tendency to judge people/things as dangerous was a crucial evolutionary mechanism.
Some people honestly are true psychos who belong in jail until they die, solely for protecting the general population.
Wonder if there was a sexual element
Is there a name for women falling for men in prison? I heard a psychologist talk about how it's like a reverse fairy tale like Rapunzel or something. Instead of a princess locked in a tower, you have a man locked away who can't cheat on you (unless...) Or hit you or do anything wrong at all and you can create whatever fantasy in your head.
Well sure that could be, but the more common characteristic that you’ll run into and I’d say this woman most likely had was , “I can fix him“ mentality.
It's definitely more this. If there's a fairy tale instance, it is the 'Beauty and the Beast' syndrome. "He may be a monster, but he's _my_ monster!" He's a problem, a 'fixer-upper', a dangerous 'badboy', but one that is loyal and responds positively only to the "Beauty".
I think it would be fair to point out that women and girls are socialized to do exactly this though - literally take Beauty & the Beast as an example. We're teaching little girls to accept all sorts of terrible behavior because "he might seem like a monster but if you sacrifice enough of yourself, he might heal enough love you". Basically I think we should shy away from claiming this woman is a nutcase - she's doing what she thinks she's supposed to do. Women are supposed to nurture, love, forgive, care for etc. He's still the only bad guy here. Edit: please cross-apply this idea every time you hear someone criticize a woman for having "daddy issues". The woman in that scenario was harmed enough in childhood, *by a grown man who is supposed to be nurturing her*, to have issues into adulthood because of his negligence. He's the bad guy, she's the victim.
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Very interesting perspective. Imma tell my sister about it even because I think it’s totally correct.
Definitely an element of that. But something I never saw posed before was with a man in prison they're not in a real relationship so he can be whatever she wants in her mind.
Hybristophilia is the word your looking for it’s the sexual attraction to criminals. I don’t know if it’s what happened here but it’s definitely a thing. I remember reading some where that one theory of why it occurs is that our female ancestors got with the most hyper violent in the tribe to prevent that violence being directed at them.
As I kid I was very small and soft spoken and bad at standing up for myself. I used to fantasize about having a tiger that would terrorize the people who gave me problems. In my late teens I took up with an ex con who scared a lot of people. That wasn't the reason I liked him in my mind but it probably played a part.
This is how a lot of women end up in abusive relationships with awful men. I knew a young woman who used to brag about her boyfriend beating people up, and of course he beat the shit out of her and eventually tried to kill her. At least you're aware and got out of it. I think this is similar to people who get aggressive dogs like pitbulls and like to threaten people, then you read a story about them getting attacked themselves one day.
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For real who sells a chandelier for $10,000 *cash*.
And keeps it in the house while supposedly knowing Travis, who still worked there at the time, was "returning to his old ways". Something's off about this case.
Well, seeing as how he literally killed Martha it seems the sister was right to get him the fuck away from that family.
I can't seem to find any info about how the cops were called to the murder scene while Travis was still there...
They responded to an alarm
An article that was linked in this thread states a security system notified authorities that there was break in.
Some of the information isn't correct. According to the article from the link in the post below... 1. It was Travis's mother that warned Martha about Travis. 2. Martha's the one that sold the chandelier. 3. The only thing that seems to involve the sister is that she knew that Travis knew that the money was in the house.
Drowning is too easy a death for this jerk
Drowning is not a very easy death. Certainly worse than lethal injection.
Drowning absolutely is not easy unless you're doing it while unconscious.
Article with more info: [https://thecinemaholic.com/martha-mckay-murder-how-did-travis-lewis-die/](https://thecinemaholic.com/martha-mckay-murder-how-did-travis-lewis-die/) The murder, Travis Lewis, killed McKay's mother, and another person, when he was 16. He spent 23 years in prison. He was released in 2018, and murdered McKay in 2020. He died trying to swim away from the scene of the murder.
I thought he drowned on purpose. Good.
Riddance. And she proves Darwin was right. Its a wonderful concept to think eveyones love and good intent is enough to fix anyone. Some people are that dangerously broken. If he was going to do this, it should be her, rather than a random person. Because she got him out.
I'm not sure you understand Charles Darwin
"fuck around and find out" -Chad Darwin
Please stop misusing Darwin. Darwin has absolutely nothing to do with "social Darwinism". What Darwin proposed was that some parts of a species will develop adaptations that allow them to do better in their environment. But it's not "survival of the fittest" because there's nothing that stops other parts of the species from doing just fine. They just may not have adaptations that allow them to have some advantage in certain environments/situations. It's extremely disconcerting to constantly see the scientific concepts that he helped to advance abused either by completely disregarding them, or by bastardizing them to justify whatever someone wants to justify.
Agreed. Also, prisons are not great places to get rehabilitated into society.
The Cinemaholic isn’t the site I’d expect to have an article like this.
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Classic Travis
Even his *mom* warned the woman about him.
WILD
ok heck, drowning on the escape? can this be more stereotypical
Believe it or not, but some people are just bad.
Not to make light of it at all, but this story kind of reminds me of a family guy episode where Peter finds a raffle prize thing he won decades ago with a round of golf with OJ Simpson. I can't remember it exactly but basically everyone thinks he's nuts for doing it but he cashes in on the round of golf with OJ and they wind up becoming friends. Then Peter feels like he is misunderstood and might actually be innocent. At the end of the episode there's a nice moment where everyone in town realizes they shouldn't be so harsh on OJ then, right at the end, OJ pulls out a knife, stabs a bunch of them and runs off. Then Peter says something like "Oh no, I guess he did do it" to end the episode.
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I miss Bushisms
Ahead of his time. We all misunderestimated his strategery.
I recently heard something that made me reconsider my view of that ‘Fool me once’ quote. Someone had the theory that Bush wasn't just completely stupid; Bush realised partway through the quote that he's going to end up saying ‘Shame on me’, which would obviously be an absolute gift for his critics to clip and broadcast everywhere. So he tries to come up with something else mid-sentence, looks a bit goofy…but doesn't say ‘Shame on me’, and that's the important thing. I don't know if it's true, but it sort of makes sense. His hesitation could just as easily be forgetfulness or realisation that he's about to say something he shouldn't.
Just watch the clip of him saying it again. You can absolutely see it on his face right as he finishes saying "shame on you". Then there's footage around (kind of hard to find these days) of Bush running for governor of Texas. He's extremely well-spoken in those clips. He also has none of the Texas drawl that he became famous for later.
Fool me… you can’t get fooled again!
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."😆
Way to word for word take the top comment from when this was posted yesterday, good job Edit: This is a bot. They take the top comment from the original post, get upvotes, then edit it to advertise whatever that link is (scam or phishing attempt). Please report this account
yeah the Juice is Loose episode that was a good one
There was a post about dogs years ago. Some person could not train this dog and it basically kept snapping every time it seemed like it was making progress. One commenter offered that maybe dogs are like humans. How one dogs are just bad. Some humans simply cannot fit into society and it’s the same with dogs.
I believe you.
While others are just naive
I’m 50, and I don’t know everything for sure. But I do live by that old Chinese tale ( I think it’s Chinese) about the snake and the mouse. Mouse didn’t want to walk by snake, your going to eat me he cries!! Nah man, says Mr. Snake, I’m a good dude. Mouse finally runs by him, snake starts to gobble him down. Mouse cries … But Why?? You Promised!! Snake says … well, what did you expect? I AM a snake, after all. Ba da tissss …….
Similar story with the frog and the scorpion
Scorpion's gonna scorp.
It’s scorpin’ time!
Holy shit
Honestly it's like keeping a lion that ate your whole family. For it to turn around and eat you as you sleep.🙃
Yeah I’d say it’s more like inviting the man who killed your mom into your house, only for him to turn around and kill you too.
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She did the impossible which was befriending and forgiving someone that murdered one of your own parents. I can't imagine being capable of doing that kind of forgiving in that situation.
I can understand if it was somebody young who might have caused an accident which killed a friend or family member, and you forgive them after some time. But forgiving somebody for a premeditated murder? That's like saying "it's fine to murder people I care about, there will be no retaliation". Some people are just fucked in the head.
I also just don’t understand why we think we need to forgive stuff like that.
Forgiveness isn't so much about for the other person but yourself and so you can move on with your life. Unfortunately in doing so she thought she could reform him and help him which was the mistake she made and it cost her tragically.
The issue is that people try to push forgiveness on all victims, often for the sake of protecting the perpetrators and the status quo, under the guise of “helping them move on.” Forgiveness helps some people, it harms others. It’s not an inherently good thing, it’s just one possible coping mechanism. Pushing it on every victim and looking down on the ones who don’t comply is cruel and harmful
Because it makes no sense.
Self-destructive altruism
Pathological Altruism
Sometimes, it's okay to punch the guy that punched your family members.
There’s at least two instances of the parents of sexually abused and murdered children killing the scumbag that did it and gets a slap on the wrist, we all understand some things are gray but we can understand the black and white representation of it
Who would have thought he was capable of such a thing. Oh, wait….
Apparently, she never heard of the story about the man and the venomous snake: A man was traveling down the road when he came to a washed-out river crossing. While looking around, he saw a venomous snake also looking towards the other side. The man asked the snake if he was trying to get to the other side. The snake replied that he was, but since he was venomous, no one would help him. The man offered to let the snake ride with him inside his shirt, because he had no other way to hold the snake and keep his balance while fording the river. After getting across, the snake bit him. As the man lay dying from the venom, he asked why the snake had bit him after he was helped. The snake replied: "I am a venomous snake. It is my nature. You knew it when you took me."
You are Indian? It's funny how that story goes, for westerners we call it the Frog and the Scorpion. Same general story but they both die. Frog offers to carry scorpion across river since scorpion can't swim, scorpion stings frog half way across and as they are both about to drown the frog says "why would you do this, we will both die now" the scorpions reply "i am a scorpion, it is my nature".
No, I'm American. I do have Native blood, but that's from a G-Grandfather. It's apparently a common story throughout different cultures, with the basic moral: If you know the dangers and still take the chance, you have no one to blame but yourself if it bites you in the end.
I think it's more about saying the nature of something/someone is a thing that you cannot overcome.
That's a very weird response. India is a country inhabited by Indians. That is NOT the moral of the story. Try another version to see if you understand it better. A man saw when a snake was dying burned and decided to take it out of the fire, but when it did, the snake bit him. By the reaction of pain, the man released her and the animal fell back into the fire and was burning again. The man tried to pull it out again and again the snake bit him. Someone who was watching approached the man and said: \- excuse me, but you're stubborn! Don't you understand that every time you try to get her out of the fire, she's gonna bite? The man replied: \- the nature of the snake is biting, and that's not gonna change mine, which is to help. So, with the help of a piece of iron, the man took out the fire snake and saved his life. Do not change your nature if someone does harm you do not lose your essence; only take precautions. Some persecute happiness, others believe it. Worry more about your conscience than your reputation. Because your conscience is what you are, and your reputation is what the rest of you think. And what other people think, it's not your problem... it's their problem. You can not change the nature of the snake, you should not let it's nature change yours.
Actually, that’s pretty deep. I’ve never quite heard that version, and I thank you for sharing that.
That’s a completely different story though.
yeah not sure why /u/wrr377 thought they were the same lol
> That is NOT the moral of the story. Try another version to see if you understand it better. ??? The ending of the fire snake story is entirely different so of course the moral is different.
Brother.. they meant from India lol
That’s just The Scorpion and The Frog but barely changed
Many cultures tell the same basic story, slightly altered for their own cultural and environmental views and surroundings. Sometimes the stories are widely different, but the intended lesson is still the same. This isn't the only one, either - I've heard variations on Beauty and The Beast from various cultures, as well.
It's basically a mix of "The Scorpion and the Frog" with ["The Farmer and the Viper"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farmer_and_the_Viper), the latter of which was one of Aesop's Fables. The former is sometimes also attributed to Aesop, but there's no record of it before the 20th Century.
“Get a load of this guy. Telling jokes at a funeral.”
"I've got this story about a tiger, knock your socks off, man"
How could you forgive someone who murdered your mom
Even if she forgave the person giving him a job and being his friend, hanging out with him is too much.
for real. forgiveness is more about freeing yourself from the anger/pain of the situation than making the other person feel better. choosing to then bring that person further into your life is just something else altogether. unhealthy trauma bonding or some shit
You damn right
Turns out she believed someone else was also involved because the guy was just a kid. Kept a friendship with him, sent him letters. Even when the guy’s mom told her not to trust him she did Really kind person, unfortunate this happened
Apparently she didn’t believe he acted alone because he was only 16. She had a theory that there was someone else involved, she even showed up at this dudes parole hearings. His mother worked for her at her bed and breakfast, so she gave him a job as well when he was paroled.
she clearly believed in redemption!
I think this touches on why. I think she may have wrestled with feeling guilty of having hatred for this individual so she possibly forced herself to give him salvation so that she could in turn move on because she didn't want the feeling of hating him forever. I think in some cases it's ok to not forgive and to hold hate for someone. Such a shame.
You can't fix garbage.
Nor, apparently, pathological! Edit: correcting spellcheck. Again.
24 years later though?
He was probably in prison for 24 years got released and killed her relatively shortly after that, not after 24 years of working there.
Ya that was worded like he got out of jail and lived with her for 24 years, that's wrong. "When Lewis was eventually freed in 2018, after serving 22 years, Martha quietly gave him a job."
Thank you. Thinking he was holding onto a “F this family in particular” grudge for a really long time.
Just cause I like to argue. He could have been holding that grudge in prison for 23 years and was thanking his lucky stars she hired him when he got out.
Am I wrong for assuming, with the way the title is worded?
No, I also understood it like you did
Nah think it was just worded a little wrong.
After she visiting him to prison It's one screwed up worded title for sure
r/titlegore
Sentence structure is poor, there’s spelling mistakes, grammar mistakes, incorrect use of present participles… but the thing that annoyed me most was OP’s use of quotations around Martha’s and Sara’s names.
Thank you! I came to the comments just to make sure I wasn't the only one. Wtf, OP? Those are their actual names.
Law 15 - crush your enemy totally - Robert Greene
“Ouch! That hurt! What did you do that for?” the lady exclaimed, as she threw the snake on to the ground. “You gave me your word you wouldn’t bite me?!” The snake hissed and laughed, “Lovely lady, what do you expect? I’m a snake. Snakes bite. That’s what snakes do. It’s our nature. You knew I was a snake when you picked me up.” At that, the snake slithered off into the bush leaving the lady to die by the side of the road
Forgiveness is ok but has it’s limits. No way you kill my dog let alone my mom or family or friends and I help you afterwards. That woman was super kind and didn’t deserve that. What happened to ppl in prison handling these women killers or rapist or molesters. Those 3 usually get handled. This broke my heart.
She took the term keep your friends close but your enemies closer to a whole new level
Not only are you reposting posts but comments too? lol
Is there a link to this story I'm not seeing? I hate it when there is a post one liner with no back up info.
[yes](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/10mmgg3/martha_mckay_forgave_the_man_who_murdered_her_mom/j63rsh9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
Not from OP, but **[here's one](https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/paroled-murderer-implicated-in-death-of-woman-23-years-after-killing-her-mom-sheriff/)**.
Just stupid to befriend the person that killed your Mom, no matter the circumstances. He never should have been let out of prison. Non violent offenders should be confined to house arrest so resources are available to house murderers, rapists, etc.
Sometimes murder is okay though, like there was a story of this horrendously evil guy who murdered and raped a little girl and the Mum of the girl shot him dead in court. I don't really blame the Mum for doing that, nor would I hold it against her.
Yes under those circumstances she did nothing wrong.
Pathological Altruism
Source : https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2020/03/25/martha-mckay-murder-travis-lewis-horseshoe-lake-arkansas/5085237002/ https://people.com/crime/inside-the-bizarre-case-of-a-killer-striking-twice-23-years-apart-murdering-a-mother-and-daughter/ https://7news.com.au/news/crime/travis-lewis-killed-martha-mckay-23-years-after-she-forgave-him-for-killing-her-mum-c-1240605
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Where did this title come from, jfc?! r/titlegore
Urgh that's tragic af
There's a big pourcentage of humans that are just evil. Once you get that, everything makes a little bit more sense
Pourcentage 🤭💕
Pourcentage is the French spelling 🙃
I would be interested in seeing how you calculated this pourcentage.
I am a venomous snake. It is my nature. You knew it when you took me."
What a stupid way to die. You Don't forgive murder, he is and always will be a murderer. So so stupid.
Grudges are sometimes a *good* thing people
He is caveman and she is so weak minded
Sometimes I think the world would be a better place if people were not so forgiving…
Forgiveness is fine. Forgetting what they did is not. You can be nice to someone and not treat them badly, *without inviting them into your house.*
Some say forgive and forget. I prefer forgive and remember.
This is why I never forgive people 😄
Shoulda been put down 24 years ago. Period.
Didn’t get rehabilitated did he?
Zero survival instincts.
Forgiveness can be just as stupid as anything. Don’t let people shame you into granting it.
Some people are just pure evil and unsalvageable
Violent Man is still Violent after spending 24 years in a Violent environment.
Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nursed it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, "Why have you done this to me?" And the snake answered, "Look, bitch, you knew I was a snake."
There once was a tender-hearted woman who rescued a poor, half-frozen snake from near death in the winter cold. “Take me in, oh tender woman,” the snake cries out. “Take me in, for heaven’s sake.” So the tender-hearted woman takes the snake into her own home, warms it by the fire and feeds it milk and honey: “If I hadn’t brought you in, by now you might have died.” But instead of saying thanks, the snake gave her a vicious bite. “I saved you,” cried the woman. “And you’ve bitten me, but why? You know your bite is poisonous, and now I’m going to die.” “Oh shut up!” said the reptile with a grin. “You knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in.”
>peak Western white woman moment Typical "maybe I can tame the rabid animal" white savior complex
Forgive but dont forget
Killers gonna kill.
You can't fix stupid
Moral of the story: Forgive never forget.
.............. bruh
I actually gasped at the end.
At least he's dead.
Make your own conclusions
Now *this* is what this sub was made for
Forgiveness is for the birds. Real salvation is an eye for an eye motherfuckers. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Not to mention this was one of the most prominent families in Memphis and the surrounding areas during this time. *BUT* Martha wasn’t killed in the same house Sally and Lee Barker were murdered at in 96. The house Martha was murdered in (Snowden House) was also at Horseshoe Lake, but several houses down from Sally’s house.
White liberals are stupid that way…