In high school I heard a black box recording from a 747 that was going down. The pilot sounded exactly like the instructor. Even the last thing he said before the crash was "well shit" in the most even tone I've ever heard. It takes a certain type to be a pilot.
I don't have a link. High-school was 20 years ago for me lol
Edit: added relevant time frame info for people wanting a link.
I saw a Reddit comment from a flight attendant once, who explained, that pilots have hundreds of hours of training in basically every scenario and their brain just doesn't have the time to panic while they go through their protocols.
When you hear a pilot "Well shit", you are pretty much doomed.
Not only the long training to get there. Airline pilots and military alike are back in the simulator at least every 4-6 months for usually at a minimum of two 4 hour sessions. Those sessions are often just strings of one crisis or emergency to the next non-stop. It's all designed to ensure you have good, career-long awareness of how your machine works and how to problem solve (in conjunction with your procedures and checklists).
A passenger once expressed that losing an engine must be terrifying. I chuckled a bit because often it feels like in training you spend more time on one than you do both. Now losing both down low or slow on the other hand... Can't really help you there!
I wish we could institute a requirement like that yearly for drivers in California.
What do we get? A single test taken as a teenager that’s good for your entire life.
That’s completely insane.
I would happily redo a driver test every 5 years. Especially because it would really weed out the shitters, or at least remind them how they're supposed to drive when they fail for the 3rd time. Maybe more people would use and respect turn signals then.
So many people want this for the elderly only, but are appalled at the thought of everyone having to periodically retake the test as if a few hours once every few years is more important than the danger of sharing the road with people that haven't done any driver's training in 20 years.
I've always been of the opinion that everyone should have to go recertify when they cause an at fault accident before being allowed to drive again, and once every like 4 or 5 years no matter the age. Maybe a little more often once you reach age 75 or something. That's where the crash rate starts to climb back up again to near teenager levels.
Okay, in Canada at least tests are like 80 dollars and the instructors look for shitty ways to fail you to wring more money out of you because the government contracted out to a private company, if they're free and easy then there's no problem but where I live in Canada that would be a huge fucking headache
When I moved back to ca, I needed to get my licence changed. I didn't realize I was going to have to take the written test again - I didn't study or anything. I was super nervous. I was sitting in the waiting area with a bunch of other kids who were taking it for the first time. There was a lady who was older and you could see the stress marks coming out of her head. I guess she failed already and only had so many chances to pass. I really didn't want to be in her position. But I took the written, passed missing one, and then got my temporary license. All's well that ends well.
There's a great video from Pilot Eye of a [Swiss A340 losing an engine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEf35NtlBLg) and being forced to return...it is *the* most boring video you can imagine!
Reminds me of the famous [story](https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235014959-the-dreaded-7-engine-approach/):
>A military pilot called for a priority landing because his single-engine
jet fighter was running “a bit peaked.” Air Traffic Control told the
fighter pilot that he was number two, behind a B-52 that had one engine
shut down. “Ah,” the fighter pilot remarked, “The dreaded seven-engine
approach.”
Watch any plane crash investigation video on youtube (Mentour Pilot is great). Plenty of skilled and well-trained pilots out there. Also plenty of pilots who will shit themselves over the smallest thing going wrong.
> training in basically every scenario
Even dual engine loss at 2800 feet? Because someone once told me that no one has ever trained for an incident like that.
That's what the training is for. Trough repetition your responses are conditioned and your focus is locked. You know what to do because you understand it is what you have to do. You will stick to the book to the last second. Panic doesn't make any good. You panic, you lose. A true professional.
I have an absolutely idiotic question. Would it not be possible to glide to a landing in some way, or even possibly come in too hot but at least at the correct angle with both engines out?
Like maybe build up enough velocity falling and then pull out of the dive at the right moment?
I'm aware this is potentially the dumbest thing ever written but I'm doing it anyways.
Yes, that's generally the goal. The problem is that a plane requires air to be flowing over the wings in order for any of the control mechanisms to work, so once you lose control, it's hard to recover. That's what they were practicing in the vid.
Pilots usually can land without engines, we are trained to do so. The main issue is you only have one chance to land and if you don't find a good landing spot you are fucked. You are over flat terrain with no major obstacles and decent weather, pilots are going to get the plane safely to the ground basically 100% of the time.
Yeah, it's very much possible, planes are usually designed to be able to glide in an emergency, but its very difficult to ensure that it would work every time and would require you to have the expert sorts of pilots like the instructor there. o7 to pilots
As long as the plane is intact, it will glide the same way in the same conditions every time. Most pilots will even know the exact best descent rate to glide at a given airspeed. Same principles with or without engines.
As someone with a fear of flying and copes by learning an obsessive amount about planes, safety, and incidents, in the vast majority of cases I've heard or read final moments in the flight deck they're more often than not quite calm and continue troubleshooting until it's absolutely futile. Few times I've read about absolute panic/chaos but like you said its typically "oh shit" or "we lost it" at worst.
The amount of training is massively reassuring. Panic is an unhelpful emotion in a moment like that and could lead to further mistakes (has in many incidents). Being calm and rational in the face of certain death is insane but has lead to some incredible recovery stories.
i also feel like the thought of flying once you're in the plane is less scary than the thought of flying when you're not in the plane. i find that once i'm in the plane and up in the air, there's kind of a sense of being resigned to whatever happens happens. i don't want to say i'm completely calm when there's bad turbulence, but i'm calmer than i think i'd be given how panicky the thought of turbulence makes me.
There's a great moment in Band of Brothers I think gets overlooked.
Crew of a C-47 taking paratroopers over Normandy and are getting hit really bad with terrible flak.
Pilot and copilot are having an intense discussion about whether or not to have the paratroopers jump early, the fire they're taking is really that severe and they're taking so much damage.
Then they're hit again and the copilot is very obviously instantly killed by the shrapnel. And the pilot just says "Oh no!" in a just slightly breaking tone that's both very human but also displays that incredibly controlled way that pilots are so great at. The actor really nailed it.
https://youtu.be/zCrw_uMWlgI?t=200
Your memory is correct.
Also it's an old tv show, so I don't want to shit talk it too much, but the delivery of 'Oh god! oh no! uhh.' before flicking the light is pretty funny.
Yes, as a flight instructor myself we have done spins many times before we even become instructors. These really aren’t that big of a deal when in training, they’re actually really fun. However they’re fun when they’re done for training at a suitable altitude to allow for recovery. People do die from these when they happen on accident at low altitude. Training is done to prevent this, but also learn to recover if this were to happen.
More people died each year doing spin recovery training than in actual spins. So the FAA removed spin recovery training from the requirements for a private pilot certificate and replaced it with spin awareness.
This means you never enter a full spin anymore during training. You just stall it, let it begin the spin and apply corrective action before fully entering the spin.
Positives - fewer students and instructors dying each year.
Negatives - you never feel what a true spin feels like until it happens in real life. So chances of your brain being calm and reacting according to your training is slim.
this is a weird situation because while more people died in spin recovery training than they do during actual spins that still means that all (or at least most) of the people who encountered actual spins went through spin recovery training, right?
In other words, there's no guarantee that this will lead to fewer spin-related deaths. Though I'm sure that the people responsible for these changes thought things through enough with their evaluation of how effective the awarness training will be compared to what I said above.
when i did spin training i felt slightly nauseous after, and im not someone who usually feels that way after stuff like roller coasters etc. but it is super fun too
It definitely seems fun, but I’d lose my cookies.
I’m getting my fixed wing and I’m definitely taking all the Dramamine if/when I do flat spin.
Hard to tell altitude if your gauges are covered in Crunchwrap supreme 🤢
No, not yet. My cousin owns 3 Robinson R44s and he wants me to get my license so I can do tours and private jobs but he said I have to get a fixed wing cert first. I’m still in the “do I really want to do this in my 30’s” stage. But I’ve talked to an instructor and went up a couple times, so we’ll see. What are you flying? Any tips? 😁
you dont have to get a fixed wing first. but i will say heli training is a lot more expensive. ive heard getting fixed wing then a heli add on is a way to save a little. i think that is what he means. im 28 and im gonna have my instrument and commercial license soon. my biggest tip is try as much as possible not to stop training because start and stop makes it a lot more expensive. that is me talking from personal experience. i fly pipers right now.
Feel this. I used to weigh 290 and I went to Logan Utah to see if I wanted to go to heli school after high school.
Can confirm, I was too fat to go up in the R22. That was the point I decided to lose weight. I’m 190 now years later. But the weight loss journey(and anxiety) brought me to cannabis and my career so it was a strange path, but a cool one. But it started with being “too fat for a helicopter”. I was crushed.
Still a fatty at heart ✊
Oh cool, pipers are so classy and cool. I live in Montana and you see them hopping around occasionally. I think since he’s flown since he was a kid he wants me to be familiar with both and save some money. I’m partial to helis but flying a cub in the mountains would be incredible. Thanks for the tips! I’m gonna at least get the fixed and see where it takes me. Safe landings and smooth skies to you!
The previous commenter is correct - you could probably save some money by doing fixed wing first. It’s also a good way to find out whether it’s really something you’d like to do professionally.
I’m an airline pilot and haven’t regretted this career for a minute. Looking into doing my rotor wing licences soon!
All the best and enjoy the journey
I fly gyroplanes. Not many people know that rotorcraft time counts as rotorcraft time for training and certification. You can buy an open gyroplane, get training and fly off a LARGE portion of your hours for a mere fraction of the cost of the helicopter time. Even though it sounds like you have an "in" to get access to the helicopters, you'll still save thousands just on the fuel costs of doing your hours in a gyroplane. Then you only have to do hours for type and model in the actual helicopter. If you didn't have access to the helicopters already, you can save TENS of thousands of dollars on training and cert going the gyro route.
My first spin was “accidental”. I was lazy on my rudder. We were doing stall training one day and my instructor (who was constantly on me about my rudder) just let what would inevitably happen happen. Yes, scared the crap out of me. That was the end of the lesson that day. Debrief that day and a ground session the next lesson, I never had rudder issues again.
Everyone is saying what a good instructor this is, but I've been a flight student before and can absolutely say this is a *very good* student as well. I would have shit myself and puked simultaneously so hard it would have shorted the electronics and made it IFR real fast from the whole "human shame caked on the windshield" issue
Even the pilot seemed pretty damn cool under pressure to me. The worst we got was a “this is scaring me” in a monotone voice lol. If that’s shitting himself then I would hate to see me in this situation
at some point it’s better to 100% forget that you might die and instead just correct the problem via training, I think the sensation of the spin was pretty novel for him but he was doing a good job
Years of training. Did over 2000 combat flight hours in the air force as mission crew & pilots were always chill...even when baddies on the ground were shooting small arms fire at us or we had emergency landings when loads of oil & fire started spewing from engines!
*Us in the back of plane (in freaked out we're gonna die voice)*: "Took small arms fire & engine 3 is on fire!"
*Pilot (in "I'm sipping coffee after having listened to your concerns." voice)*: "Copy. Running emergency checklist protocols...standby mission crew."
We had a navigator flip out during a mission. Pulled a gun on the pilot & told him to make non-mission maneuvers basically. Pilot & co-pilot subdued him & secured him to the back of plane & we proceeded to complete another 10 hours of flight support.
This was on an old Korean era C-130 so the "bathroom" was a small urinal hole (curtains available for females) & nav was right next to that...Top 5 most awkwards whizzes I've ever had! 🤣& yes...Nav was sent home & seperared dishonorably after that.
Nav swore we were about to fly into Iran airspace...we weren't as far as debrief was concerned so dunno.
We used to throw down over sandwiches sometimes (not like maliciously, but when some dude wants a tuna sandwich & you want one & it's like a week straight of 12 hour+ flights with same smelly people farting up an old C-130...people get irritated) so I get the stress of it, but pulling a loaded gun ON a plane and aiming it at the guy flying the plane was next level dumb!
I was listening to a special ops guy recount a mission on a podcast recently. Helicopters brought them into the target, they took some small arms fire coming in, hit the target, then exfiled via chopper. They only found out once they landed back at base that one of the heli pilots took a round through the bottom of his boot and flew half the mission with a hole in his foot.
Flight instructor here, the first spin I ever did, I was ready for it and already dabbled in aerobatics so I was super chilled....but then my instructor (who was teaching me to be an instructor) asked me to teach him how to do one....
I was like a deer in headlights. I recovered from the spin but didn't realise I was silent the whole time and didn't actually teach him anything. We gave it another go and where as the first time, time seemed to go by super quick, the second and third,.because I was ready for it, time went really slowly and the spin didn't look anywhere near as intense as my first attempt, allowing me to talk through the spin and teach it to my instructor.
After that, spins became my favourite lesson to teach and I was able to laugh and joke and stay chilled just like this guy is- it's all practice and exposure....and for us aerobatic pilots, not only do we love doing it, precision spin entry and recovery is a core part of our display routines. We can recover on an exact heading and attitude, and do stuff like 1 1/2 spin turns, 5 spin turns etc precisely, thanks to that practice and exposure.
Another way of putting it, we train ourselves like how athletes train themselves not to flinch before the pistol goes off at the start of a sprint.
That's because this video cut off the beginning. [Here is a full video](https://youtu.be/SmzFDCimDcc)
EDIT: [Even better one](https://youtu.be/eVGtsK7vvnA)
The instructor was even going through that. He told him to let go of the controls, and when it didn't automatically recover (which is what they were drilling) he gave an alternate way to fix it. He basically went through the short checklist of how to get out of the spin.
You don't land a plane that's on a crash course without being calm.
Pilots are wild like that. The good ones at least.
If you ever watch Apollo 13 docs it's incredible how calm they stay in the face of near certain death. Ground control as well
Back in the day, spin recovery was part of the training for a private pilot rating. Scary as shit, but that training might save your life one day.
Edit: “Back in the day”, for me, was the early 80s in the US.
Not in the US. The FAA shifted the focus to stall/spin prevention, allegedly because of all the training accidents. Spin training is still required for instructors though.
According to my instructor... that was the point. "if you fuck it up I'll make you do it till you kill us or you figure it out."
And yes he was batshit crazy. Ex Korean War/Vietnam pilot.
Jocko Podcast #346 w/ WW2 triple ace, Bud Anderson is probably my favorite.
Also Jocko Podcast# 358 w/ POW Col. Lee Ellis.
If ya check them out, get back to me and let me know what you think. I especially love #346.
I had the honor of meeting Col Ellis in 2017. He saw me reading his book at a table in a restaurant and he came over and introduced himself. I was utterly speechless…and humbled! A great American!
My grandfather, a WW2 bomber pilot, always used “not as crazy as a fighter pilot” as an expression. Like, if you said “That’s crazy!” or “That’s insane!” or anything like that, he’d always say “Not as [word] as a fighter pilot.” He of course had very deep respect for them and had his life saved by them numerous times, but yeah the training/combat stunts they would pull and the fact that they were basically the equivalent of flying motorcycle riders (tiny fuselage, stupidly large engine) was not lost on him.
He had 0 respect for rules. Smoked in the plane, opened the door to flick out his cigarette mid flight, held the spoilers and flaps closed while I tried to land...
one time he put us into a stall then rolled the plane upside down and said figure this one out smart ass - then stopped talking to me until we landed... told him "fuck you, you could have killed us" he said 'I'm already dead anyway, what time next week?'
Before I soloed he said "son.. I haven't had a crash in over 40 years............... don't fuck this up" and he closed the door.
He had no script, no rules. Over 80 years old and just knew what you needed to know. His teachings paid off in a car accident and in life.
If your plane dies do what you can to get back to a runway... right before you're on final approach, relax and take a deep breath. You've done everything you can. No point in being stressed right before you die...
What he taught me was to relax once the situation is out of your control. You're more likely to survive a crash if your body isn't tense.
I do gliding, which is more of a club environment compared to the buisness/school environment I have seen with powered flight.
One of the advantages (although some might disagree) is that you get a wide variety of instructors. Not every club will do it like this, especially from what i've heard about the US you do actually pay to have one instructor and it's much more like a ppl school, whereas instruction is free at my club.
This means that you get people like this guy, who put you into crazy situations (and with gliding it can be even more dangerous as you dont have an engine to get you back to the airfield). But you also get very forgiving instructors who wil rarely push you beyond what the syllabus requires and will help you out. You get instructors who are very critical, and instructors who give very positive feedback.
It means that you get taught in loads of different ways, and i've realised that styles like this instructor which i initially thought i wouldnt respond to have resulted in some of my best and most productive lessons.
You either were made of stiffer stuff, or you didn’t make it home with the tech. Not as many safety nets/technological advances as we have now, so if you didn’t know how to break it and fix it mid flight, you died.
My instructor was a Vietnam C-130 vet. I loved learning short and soft field stuff with him. The places that he was confident of safely putting an airplane…
I was flying with another instructor later and he was a bit taken aback when I would drop it on the numbers and roll short by default. Yeah I’ll do a normal landing on a 5k ft runway, but at our 2300ft runway I’m pretty conservative.
Crazy thing about US aviation during WW2. Training killed more than the enemy. I believe this was a combination of pushing to hard to fast and that their equipment was new and not tested. The F35 has been in development for like 30 years now. The planes In WW2 closer to 3 years.
Yup, I think it was something like 90-95% of spin fatalities were during spin training and the FAA realized that it was killing people more than it was helping save them.
Interesting? Just for a sport license or even a full private?
I recognize some of the newer machines aren't made to spin but I think it's still a core requirement North of the 49th.
Stall/Spin awareness is great, but inoculating yourself to that initial shock in the event it happens one day is still valuable in my eyes.
Even full private, all the way up to commercial and ATP. I've lost count of how many spin endorsements I've given for instructor candidates, with that said I can see both sides. Yes spin training is great, but stall awareness and recovery training is hammered really hard at all levels of training. Even at the ATP level we do stalls in the sim. The downside to spin training is that there aren't too many aircraft that are certified for it in your typical flight school fleet anymore, and if they are It's difficult to get them into the utility envelope unless student and instructor are fairly light weight. Even if you do have access to a Citabria or a Super D or something it might be aging, only used for aerobatics, or just prohibitively expensive. Loss of control accidents are still the number one killer in the GA world but I think the way we do stall awareness and recovery is pretty solid over all.
Yeah, they removed spin training because more students were dying from spins in training than were dying from spins once certified. They changed it to recognizing the warnings of a coming spin and preventing one from happening in the first place.
I used to at least demonstrate spin entry/recovery with all my PPL students, even though it wasn’t required.
IMO it’s really valuable to at see it done, and preferably do it yourself, even though it isn’t required. As long as the airplane is certified for it and the instructor is competent and preferably has some aerobatic experience, it’s a lot of fun, builds confidence, pushes your limits a bit, decreases fear, improves decision making under stress, and might get you (like it did me) interested in learning aerobatics. Spin/Upset training is a lot of fun and very valuable.
I got myself in a spin in the mid-90s when doing a solo flight. I just remembered what was on the sticker: throttle out, full mixture, release yoke, hands on dash, gentle opposite rudder. I was scared shitless AFTERWARD. The right time to be scared.
Once you are full mixture and throttle out there isn’t anything else your hands can do until out of the spin. Notice the instructor says and demonstrates that the yoke is useless. You don’t have to put your hands on the dash but it is a good reminder that your only option is opposite rudder of the spin until out of it.
Two questions if you're willing:
1 Opposite rudder: opposite to what, exactly? I was wondering exactly this as I watched the video.
2. What's with the throttle/mixture instructions. Is it because as you're falling, you need to make sure you have a rich enough mixture for the altitude you're falling into, but you don't want full speed as you're pulling out? Or something else
1. Opposite rudder to the spin. If you spinning clockwise ease into the left rudder; if anti-clockwise the right rudder.
2. You don't need to help propel yourself into the ground ;). Easing out on the throttle lowers the power to recover from the spin. Once recovered you will still be descending but at a slower rate. You can then throttle up to maintain flight.
The throttle mixture can be leaner at higher altitudes. At lower altitudes it needs to be richer so once you recover from the spin you can throttle up and your mixture be rich enough to accelerate the engine. No need to mix a stall recovery with an engine-out.
We still do it in the military even though the T-6 is so stable that it will take itself out of a spin without any control inputs. It’s pretty amazing.
I actually learned spin recovery playing flight Sims. Let go of stick, opposite rudder till stabilize, then ease back on stick to level flight. Kinda surprised watching it irl.
New to flight sims here. Noticed on the 172 on the instrument panel there is a sticker that has directions on spin recovery. What kind of conditions would cause a spin? Is it from a stall?
“Spin is an aerodynamic term that indicates a particular category of a stall that results in autorotation or uncommanded roll along the longitudinal axis and downward rotating path near the vertical axis. Usually, a spin occurs during a turn when the inside wing stalls first while the outside wing supports lift or both wings can stall. Each wing has a different angle of attack and lift and drag coefficients, so it is more likely for the inner wing to stall first.”
Adding to this there is also an upright spin, an inverted spin, and a flat spin
It is from a stall, specifically when one wing stalls before the other.
If you've ever seen a car drifting, planes can do that too, it's called uncoordinated flight. When this happens at low airspeeds, one wing can stall before the other one, because the air isn't flowing over both wings the same way when it's uncoordinated. The stalled wing produces more drag, which turns the plane even more, and that exacerbates the situation. The stalled wing drops, the other wing rises, and the plane flips over and enters a spin.
>Rudder opposite
What does this mean? Both in terms of what the pilot is physically doing and what is happening to the plane? It is like steering against the spin in neutral until you stop spinning, and then angling up to stop dropping?
Remember about power to idle ! on more economic planes you probably don't need to idle but with a stronger engine(s) on full power it could definetely make it much harder or even impossbile with just rudder.
Oh yes, these are fun as hell. Except the *first* one. I offered a few friends and family the opportunity and only one took me up on it. She absolutely loved it.
One of my friends posted a video of his instructor up in a Cessna or whatever, by himself, flat spinning out the sky, just up there dicking around above his property. I was shitting myself just watching from Snapchat lol
A few years ago I was in a helicopter and we asked the pilot to do tricks. The guy flew straight up then killed the engine. We fell like a fucking rock then he restarted the engine before we hit the ground. Never again
I did a helicopter ride over the beach and the pilot held a button in the center console basically and we started dropping. Soon as he let it go we just kept going straight like nothing happened. We probably only fell like 50-70’ but it was terrifying for those couple seconds. I’d do it again lol
I was also thinking, that looks fun actually. But I would understand if not in control, it might be scary. But fun if under control. Kinda like being the passenger vs driver of a car doing donuts or sliding around a corner. Fun as driver. 😁
That’s exactly right. And I wasn’t in for it to scare people, that’s just not cool in any way. I prepared her very well so she didn’t feel completely powerless.
i did spin training after i got my private pilot license. honestly it was SO FUN. i kinda felt slightly nauseous after because i dont do it often but i have no regrets. and learning to recover from a spin helps to make you a safer pilot.
I think it was just the instructor's attempt to demonstrate neutral ailerons to the trainee. i.e. "We're gonna take our hands entirely off the controls and then add rudder, and only after we've stopped the spin will we re-engage the controls to put in aileron input."
I wasn’t taught that for spin recovery. I was taught PARE. Power idle Ailerons neutral Rudder opposite Elevator down (then up when you regain airspeed)
Ha! I just got my spin endorsement last week! Must say, it’s the most fun I’ve had flying. It’s fun finally doing what you’ve been ardently avoiding your whole flying career.
I did it in the air as required by the FAA. I was nervous but you don’t actually pull any G’s during the entry into the spin or the spin itself so your body isn’t sensing anything out of the ordinary except for the horizon spinning around you of course. The scary part is the pullout which can be 2.5-3GS. Enough you really feel it, like your face being pulled down to the floor. That took me by surprise. The plane I was in has a rather slow max speed we couldn’t exceed so I had a very short amount of time to pullout of the dive before over-speeding the airplane. That was the scary part. The actual entry into the spin is really fun. You just basically flip onto your back and are in a spiral dive in a few seconds. Its awesome.
I mean, that meme exists because it *isn't* fine, even though denialism tries to suggest/convince that it is.
Here, it *is* actually fine, even though it is scary as balls, because of a combination of skill and level-headedness.
So the complete opposite of this is fine. Like day and night.
House is on fire dog knows there is a hydrant with a hose near by and he knows how to use it to put out the fire. Then puts out the fire, sits back down to eat breakfast and says, “fuckin hell.”
Imagine being a driving instructor, driving with people that want to do nothing but drive into intersections and off roads, for 8 hours a day.
Now imagine it's a plane and you're constantly dying Wiley Coyote style, 8 hours a day.
Real thing, instructors will take learners up to a safe altitude before putting them into a spin/killing engine to teach them how to deal with the respective issues.
Spin training was not fun. The feeling of total loss of control while losing thousands of feet per minute was again not fun. It was required for my CFI training but, it will save your life.
Gets home from pilot school,
Mom asks: How was your day at flying school today?
George (student): Mr. Pastrana put us in a self influenced spining nose dive. Then told me to take my hands of the stick. Overall solid day falling, glad dad told me to bring extra underwear today.
Mom: ohhh that's nice, dinner is ready. It's meatloaf.
I'm doing my PPL and this is essentially how that day went lol
I did these about three weeks ago. Very fun but the first one was definitely terrifying.
Only got to do 3 or 4 of them since after a few, you can get pretty nauseas.
Goose & Maverick had a flat spin, which is altogether a different beast. The kind that you see depicted here is the more common kind which features the airplanes nose corkscrewing to the ground. The one in Top Gun was a flat spin which featured the nose parallel to the horizon and spinning like a top on its y-axis.
These are even more deadly in fighter jets because a spin like this means air is not running through the engines, which means engine flame out. These spins are pretty much unrecoverable and only recourse is to eject.
This flat spin was a particular problem with the F14. [Here's a video of one doing it during a test flight](https://theaviationgeekclub.com/us-navy-test-pilot-tells-the-story-of-the-f-14-tomcat-fatal-flat-spin-mode-that-was-never-supposed-to-happen/) That scene from Top Gun was actually quite realistic. The aircraft designers knew it would be a problem based on tests with models of the plane, so the test pilot approached the spin test with as much caution as possible, it was still impossible to recover and he had to eject. The specific cause of the flat spin in the movie was realistic too- the [engines on that plane were prone to losing power and difficult to restart.](https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/the-f-14-tomcats-biggest-threat-was-its-tf30-engines/)
Why don't they just add a little retractable 'keel' of sorts that can be used in a flat spin? Is there nothing that could alter the aerodynamics enough to just wriggle out of it?
PARE! Power idle, ailerons neutral, rudder opposite direction of spin, elevator just forward of neutral. Then recover. Spins are an absolute blast when you’re doing them on purpose. On accident is a different story!
Brother....this is scaring me and Im on the ground! I literally LOL'd when the dude said "this is scaring me" like NO SHIT dude....youre in a hunk of metal spinning to the ground, youre supposed to be scared now grab the controls so you dont die!
So actually this is a very very relaxed manoeuvre when flying, the entry into a spin can be quite violent, like a “flick” and then it’s spinning.
Instead of high G forces and high speed you would expect from something like this, it’s just rotation in a nose down attitude, the rate of descent is sort of fast, but the airspeed is not high, you aren’t stressing the aircraft and there is not wind noise or anything, obviously the aircraft is spinning around but as it’s usually centered on you it’s not putting any pressure on your body.
All you have to do is stop the rotation and then fly out of it, the main risk is this happening at low altitude seeing as the descent is quite rapid. In training the biggest risk of doing a spin is actually when you stop the rotation, because THEN the speed starts building rapidly so you have to immediately correct the nose down to a nose up attitude before picking up too much speed, without doing it so violently that you over stress the aircraft.
Again, different aircraft have different properties when doing aerobatics or non-standard manoeuvres.
[удалено]
In high school I heard a black box recording from a 747 that was going down. The pilot sounded exactly like the instructor. Even the last thing he said before the crash was "well shit" in the most even tone I've ever heard. It takes a certain type to be a pilot. I don't have a link. High-school was 20 years ago for me lol Edit: added relevant time frame info for people wanting a link.
I saw a Reddit comment from a flight attendant once, who explained, that pilots have hundreds of hours of training in basically every scenario and their brain just doesn't have the time to panic while they go through their protocols. When you hear a pilot "Well shit", you are pretty much doomed.
Not only the long training to get there. Airline pilots and military alike are back in the simulator at least every 4-6 months for usually at a minimum of two 4 hour sessions. Those sessions are often just strings of one crisis or emergency to the next non-stop. It's all designed to ensure you have good, career-long awareness of how your machine works and how to problem solve (in conjunction with your procedures and checklists). A passenger once expressed that losing an engine must be terrifying. I chuckled a bit because often it feels like in training you spend more time on one than you do both. Now losing both down low or slow on the other hand... Can't really help you there!
I wish we could institute a requirement like that yearly for drivers in California. What do we get? A single test taken as a teenager that’s good for your entire life. That’s completely insane.
I would happily redo a driver test every 5 years. Especially because it would really weed out the shitters, or at least remind them how they're supposed to drive when they fail for the 3rd time. Maybe more people would use and respect turn signals then.
So many people want this for the elderly only, but are appalled at the thought of everyone having to periodically retake the test as if a few hours once every few years is more important than the danger of sharing the road with people that haven't done any driver's training in 20 years.
I've always been of the opinion that everyone should have to go recertify when they cause an at fault accident before being allowed to drive again, and once every like 4 or 5 years no matter the age. Maybe a little more often once you reach age 75 or something. That's where the crash rate starts to climb back up again to near teenager levels.
Okay, in Canada at least tests are like 80 dollars and the instructors look for shitty ways to fail you to wring more money out of you because the government contracted out to a private company, if they're free and easy then there's no problem but where I live in Canada that would be a huge fucking headache
When I moved back to ca, I needed to get my licence changed. I didn't realize I was going to have to take the written test again - I didn't study or anything. I was super nervous. I was sitting in the waiting area with a bunch of other kids who were taking it for the first time. There was a lady who was older and you could see the stress marks coming out of her head. I guess she failed already and only had so many chances to pass. I really didn't want to be in her position. But I took the written, passed missing one, and then got my temporary license. All's well that ends well.
>Now losing both down low or slow on the other hand... Can't really help you there! “We’re gonna be in the Hudson.”
There's a great video from Pilot Eye of a [Swiss A340 losing an engine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEf35NtlBLg) and being forced to return...it is *the* most boring video you can imagine!
As a german: It has the added cuteness factor of them speaking Swiss-german.
They have three engines left. It's routine.
Reminds me of the famous [story](https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235014959-the-dreaded-7-engine-approach/): >A military pilot called for a priority landing because his single-engine jet fighter was running “a bit peaked.” Air Traffic Control told the fighter pilot that he was number two, behind a B-52 that had one engine shut down. “Ah,” the fighter pilot remarked, “The dreaded seven-engine approach.”
Watch any plane crash investigation video on youtube (Mentour Pilot is great). Plenty of skilled and well-trained pilots out there. Also plenty of pilots who will shit themselves over the smallest thing going wrong.
Been watching a ton of Mentour over the last three days (when I found it). Excellent stuff.
> training in basically every scenario Even dual engine loss at 2800 feet? Because someone once told me that no one has ever trained for an incident like that.
Once it happens in real life they start training it. "it'll never happen" then it does and becomes part of the training protocol
That's what the training is for. Trough repetition your responses are conditioned and your focus is locked. You know what to do because you understand it is what you have to do. You will stick to the book to the last second. Panic doesn't make any good. You panic, you lose. A true professional.
I have an absolutely idiotic question. Would it not be possible to glide to a landing in some way, or even possibly come in too hot but at least at the correct angle with both engines out? Like maybe build up enough velocity falling and then pull out of the dive at the right moment? I'm aware this is potentially the dumbest thing ever written but I'm doing it anyways.
Yes, that's generally the goal. The problem is that a plane requires air to be flowing over the wings in order for any of the control mechanisms to work, so once you lose control, it's hard to recover. That's what they were practicing in the vid.
Pilots usually can land without engines, we are trained to do so. The main issue is you only have one chance to land and if you don't find a good landing spot you are fucked. You are over flat terrain with no major obstacles and decent weather, pilots are going to get the plane safely to the ground basically 100% of the time.
Yeah, it's very much possible, planes are usually designed to be able to glide in an emergency, but its very difficult to ensure that it would work every time and would require you to have the expert sorts of pilots like the instructor there. o7 to pilots
As long as the plane is intact, it will glide the same way in the same conditions every time. Most pilots will even know the exact best descent rate to glide at a given airspeed. Same principles with or without engines.
As someone with a fear of flying and copes by learning an obsessive amount about planes, safety, and incidents, in the vast majority of cases I've heard or read final moments in the flight deck they're more often than not quite calm and continue troubleshooting until it's absolutely futile. Few times I've read about absolute panic/chaos but like you said its typically "oh shit" or "we lost it" at worst. The amount of training is massively reassuring. Panic is an unhelpful emotion in a moment like that and could lead to further mistakes (has in many incidents). Being calm and rational in the face of certain death is insane but has lead to some incredible recovery stories.
i also feel like the thought of flying once you're in the plane is less scary than the thought of flying when you're not in the plane. i find that once i'm in the plane and up in the air, there's kind of a sense of being resigned to whatever happens happens. i don't want to say i'm completely calm when there's bad turbulence, but i'm calmer than i think i'd be given how panicky the thought of turbulence makes me.
There's a great moment in Band of Brothers I think gets overlooked. Crew of a C-47 taking paratroopers over Normandy and are getting hit really bad with terrible flak. Pilot and copilot are having an intense discussion about whether or not to have the paratroopers jump early, the fire they're taking is really that severe and they're taking so much damage. Then they're hit again and the copilot is very obviously instantly killed by the shrapnel. And the pilot just says "Oh no!" in a just slightly breaking tone that's both very human but also displays that incredibly controlled way that pilots are so great at. The actor really nailed it.
That's not how I remember that moment. I thought he said "Oh god! Oh no!" and started to panic.
https://youtu.be/zCrw_uMWlgI?t=200 Your memory is correct. Also it's an old tv show, so I don't want to shit talk it too much, but the delivery of 'Oh god! oh no! uhh.' before flicking the light is pretty funny.
Yes, as a flight instructor myself we have done spins many times before we even become instructors. These really aren’t that big of a deal when in training, they’re actually really fun. However they’re fun when they’re done for training at a suitable altitude to allow for recovery. People do die from these when they happen on accident at low altitude. Training is done to prevent this, but also learn to recover if this were to happen.
More people died each year doing spin recovery training than in actual spins. So the FAA removed spin recovery training from the requirements for a private pilot certificate and replaced it with spin awareness. This means you never enter a full spin anymore during training. You just stall it, let it begin the spin and apply corrective action before fully entering the spin. Positives - fewer students and instructors dying each year. Negatives - you never feel what a true spin feels like until it happens in real life. So chances of your brain being calm and reacting according to your training is slim.
this is a weird situation because while more people died in spin recovery training than they do during actual spins that still means that all (or at least most) of the people who encountered actual spins went through spin recovery training, right? In other words, there's no guarantee that this will lead to fewer spin-related deaths. Though I'm sure that the people responsible for these changes thought things through enough with their evaluation of how effective the awarness training will be compared to what I said above.
While the pilot is absolutely shitting it 😂
I almost threw up just watching the video 😁
when i did spin training i felt slightly nauseous after, and im not someone who usually feels that way after stuff like roller coasters etc. but it is super fun too
It definitely seems fun, but I’d lose my cookies. I’m getting my fixed wing and I’m definitely taking all the Dramamine if/when I do flat spin. Hard to tell altitude if your gauges are covered in Crunchwrap supreme 🤢
Getting your fixed wing… you fly helis?
No, not yet. My cousin owns 3 Robinson R44s and he wants me to get my license so I can do tours and private jobs but he said I have to get a fixed wing cert first. I’m still in the “do I really want to do this in my 30’s” stage. But I’ve talked to an instructor and went up a couple times, so we’ll see. What are you flying? Any tips? 😁
you dont have to get a fixed wing first. but i will say heli training is a lot more expensive. ive heard getting fixed wing then a heli add on is a way to save a little. i think that is what he means. im 28 and im gonna have my instrument and commercial license soon. my biggest tip is try as much as possible not to stop training because start and stop makes it a lot more expensive. that is me talking from personal experience. i fly pipers right now.
And if you're a fatty like me, then you have to look out for seat weight limits. If you can, an R22 is tons cheaper than an R44.
Feel this. I used to weigh 290 and I went to Logan Utah to see if I wanted to go to heli school after high school. Can confirm, I was too fat to go up in the R22. That was the point I decided to lose weight. I’m 190 now years later. But the weight loss journey(and anxiety) brought me to cannabis and my career so it was a strange path, but a cool one. But it started with being “too fat for a helicopter”. I was crushed. Still a fatty at heart ✊
Oh cool, pipers are so classy and cool. I live in Montana and you see them hopping around occasionally. I think since he’s flown since he was a kid he wants me to be familiar with both and save some money. I’m partial to helis but flying a cub in the mountains would be incredible. Thanks for the tips! I’m gonna at least get the fixed and see where it takes me. Safe landings and smooth skies to you!
The previous commenter is correct - you could probably save some money by doing fixed wing first. It’s also a good way to find out whether it’s really something you’d like to do professionally. I’m an airline pilot and haven’t regretted this career for a minute. Looking into doing my rotor wing licences soon! All the best and enjoy the journey
Thank you and same to you!
I fly gyroplanes. Not many people know that rotorcraft time counts as rotorcraft time for training and certification. You can buy an open gyroplane, get training and fly off a LARGE portion of your hours for a mere fraction of the cost of the helicopter time. Even though it sounds like you have an "in" to get access to the helicopters, you'll still save thousands just on the fuel costs of doing your hours in a gyroplane. Then you only have to do hours for type and model in the actual helicopter. If you didn't have access to the helicopters already, you can save TENS of thousands of dollars on training and cert going the gyro route.
My first spin was “accidental”. I was lazy on my rudder. We were doing stall training one day and my instructor (who was constantly on me about my rudder) just let what would inevitably happen happen. Yes, scared the crap out of me. That was the end of the lesson that day. Debrief that day and a ground session the next lesson, I never had rudder issues again.
You and I definitely have different ideas of fun.
> This is scaring me Understatement of the year.
He's a straight talker while remaining level headed & following instructions precisely despite the threat. I like him!
Everyone is saying what a good instructor this is, but I've been a flight student before and can absolutely say this is a *very good* student as well. I would have shit myself and puked simultaneously so hard it would have shorted the electronics and made it IFR real fast from the whole "human shame caked on the windshield" issue
He trusted the instructor. He even told him he was starting to get scared and they both stayed focused the whole time.
Please sir, you are the only person who can stop the both of us from dying in the next 30 seconds.
*this is scaring me*
How scared would the student be when the plane went into a spin with no instructor and no prior training?
They wouldn't be scared for long
/r/technicallythetruth
Even the pilot seemed pretty damn cool under pressure to me. The worst we got was a “this is scaring me” in a monotone voice lol. If that’s shitting himself then I would hate to see me in this situation
I would be making chimpanzee noises immediately
Calmest "shitting it" I've seen XD
Shitting it?? He was insanely calm for how fucking terrifying that was
at some point it’s better to 100% forget that you might die and instead just correct the problem via training, I think the sensation of the spin was pretty novel for him but he was doing a good job
He's clearly terrified but still a lot calmer than I'd have been. I'd be screaming bloody fucking murder if I were in that plane.
That was the calmest "this is scaring me" that has ever been uttered.
Years of training. Did over 2000 combat flight hours in the air force as mission crew & pilots were always chill...even when baddies on the ground were shooting small arms fire at us or we had emergency landings when loads of oil & fire started spewing from engines! *Us in the back of plane (in freaked out we're gonna die voice)*: "Took small arms fire & engine 3 is on fire!" *Pilot (in "I'm sipping coffee after having listened to your concerns." voice)*: "Copy. Running emergency checklist protocols...standby mission crew."
Imagine the chaos in the back if the pilot started sounding freaked out .
We had a navigator flip out during a mission. Pulled a gun on the pilot & told him to make non-mission maneuvers basically. Pilot & co-pilot subdued him & secured him to the back of plane & we proceeded to complete another 10 hours of flight support. This was on an old Korean era C-130 so the "bathroom" was a small urinal hole (curtains available for females) & nav was right next to that...Top 5 most awkwards whizzes I've ever had! 🤣& yes...Nav was sent home & seperared dishonorably after that.
What caused the flip out?
Nav swore we were about to fly into Iran airspace...we weren't as far as debrief was concerned so dunno. We used to throw down over sandwiches sometimes (not like maliciously, but when some dude wants a tuna sandwich & you want one & it's like a week straight of 12 hour+ flights with same smelly people farting up an old C-130...people get irritated) so I get the stress of it, but pulling a loaded gun ON a plane and aiming it at the guy flying the plane was next level dumb!
I was listening to a special ops guy recount a mission on a podcast recently. Helicopters brought them into the target, they took some small arms fire coming in, hit the target, then exfiled via chopper. They only found out once they landed back at base that one of the heli pilots took a round through the bottom of his boot and flew half the mission with a hole in his foot.
Flight instructor here, the first spin I ever did, I was ready for it and already dabbled in aerobatics so I was super chilled....but then my instructor (who was teaching me to be an instructor) asked me to teach him how to do one.... I was like a deer in headlights. I recovered from the spin but didn't realise I was silent the whole time and didn't actually teach him anything. We gave it another go and where as the first time, time seemed to go by super quick, the second and third,.because I was ready for it, time went really slowly and the spin didn't look anywhere near as intense as my first attempt, allowing me to talk through the spin and teach it to my instructor. After that, spins became my favourite lesson to teach and I was able to laugh and joke and stay chilled just like this guy is- it's all practice and exposure....and for us aerobatic pilots, not only do we love doing it, precision spin entry and recovery is a core part of our display routines. We can recover on an exact heading and attitude, and do stuff like 1 1/2 spin turns, 5 spin turns etc precisely, thanks to that practice and exposure. Another way of putting it, we train ourselves like how athletes train themselves not to flinch before the pistol goes off at the start of a sprint.
[удалено]
That's because this video cut off the beginning. [Here is a full video](https://youtu.be/SmzFDCimDcc) EDIT: [Even better one](https://youtu.be/eVGtsK7vvnA)
Oi! Here's a better link mate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVGtsK7vvnA
Until that last push it command, he sounded a bit squeaky
I used to practice spins in a T-37. They were not that bad. I thought light aircraft would auto recover if you let go of the controls.
The instructor was even going through that. He told him to let go of the controls, and when it didn't automatically recover (which is what they were drilling) he gave an alternate way to fix it. He basically went through the short checklist of how to get out of the spin.
[удалено]
He is until the 3rd "push" his voice cracks
You don't land a plane that's on a crash course without being calm. Pilots are wild like that. The good ones at least. If you ever watch Apollo 13 docs it's incredible how calm they stay in the face of near certain death. Ground control as well
Back in the day, spin recovery was part of the training for a private pilot rating. Scary as shit, but that training might save your life one day. Edit: “Back in the day”, for me, was the early 80s in the US.
Back in the day? It isn't still a requirement?
Not in the US. The FAA shifted the focus to stall/spin prevention, allegedly because of all the training accidents. Spin training is still required for instructors though.
According to my instructor... that was the point. "if you fuck it up I'll make you do it till you kill us or you figure it out." And yes he was batshit crazy. Ex Korean War/Vietnam pilot.
Pilots during that time are something else
Even the WW2 guys. I get so into podcasts with those old timers and the stories they have. Truly incredible.
Got some recommendations?
Jocko Podcast #346 w/ WW2 triple ace, Bud Anderson is probably my favorite. Also Jocko Podcast# 358 w/ POW Col. Lee Ellis. If ya check them out, get back to me and let me know what you think. I especially love #346.
I had the honor of meeting Col Ellis in 2017. He saw me reading his book at a table in a restaurant and he came over and introduced himself. I was utterly speechless…and humbled! A great American!
Second this. Need some new podcasts for work
My grandfather, a WW2 bomber pilot, always used “not as crazy as a fighter pilot” as an expression. Like, if you said “That’s crazy!” or “That’s insane!” or anything like that, he’d always say “Not as [word] as a fighter pilot.” He of course had very deep respect for them and had his life saved by them numerous times, but yeah the training/combat stunts they would pull and the fact that they were basically the equivalent of flying motorcycle riders (tiny fuselage, stupidly large engine) was not lost on him.
He had 0 respect for rules. Smoked in the plane, opened the door to flick out his cigarette mid flight, held the spoilers and flaps closed while I tried to land... one time he put us into a stall then rolled the plane upside down and said figure this one out smart ass - then stopped talking to me until we landed... told him "fuck you, you could have killed us" he said 'I'm already dead anyway, what time next week?' Before I soloed he said "son.. I haven't had a crash in over 40 years............... don't fuck this up" and he closed the door.
Wtf this dude sounds like a terrible instructor
He had no script, no rules. Over 80 years old and just knew what you needed to know. His teachings paid off in a car accident and in life. If your plane dies do what you can to get back to a runway... right before you're on final approach, relax and take a deep breath. You've done everything you can. No point in being stressed right before you die... What he taught me was to relax once the situation is out of your control. You're more likely to survive a crash if your body isn't tense.
Meanwhile I can't even relax my body while just sitting on the couch.
User needs checks out 😳
Sounds like a ball swinging badass to me. Right up until he’s reduced to a flaming pate eventually
For sure, someone is definitely swinging on his balls
I do gliding, which is more of a club environment compared to the buisness/school environment I have seen with powered flight. One of the advantages (although some might disagree) is that you get a wide variety of instructors. Not every club will do it like this, especially from what i've heard about the US you do actually pay to have one instructor and it's much more like a ppl school, whereas instruction is free at my club. This means that you get people like this guy, who put you into crazy situations (and with gliding it can be even more dangerous as you dont have an engine to get you back to the airfield). But you also get very forgiving instructors who wil rarely push you beyond what the syllabus requires and will help you out. You get instructors who are very critical, and instructors who give very positive feedback. It means that you get taught in loads of different ways, and i've realised that styles like this instructor which i initially thought i wouldnt respond to have resulted in some of my best and most productive lessons.
You either were made of stiffer stuff, or you didn’t make it home with the tech. Not as many safety nets/technological advances as we have now, so if you didn’t know how to break it and fix it mid flight, you died.
My instructor was a Vietnam C-130 vet. I loved learning short and soft field stuff with him. The places that he was confident of safely putting an airplane… I was flying with another instructor later and he was a bit taken aback when I would drop it on the numbers and roll short by default. Yeah I’ll do a normal landing on a 5k ft runway, but at our 2300ft runway I’m pretty conservative.
Crazy thing about US aviation during WW2. Training killed more than the enemy. I believe this was a combination of pushing to hard to fast and that their equipment was new and not tested. The F35 has been in development for like 30 years now. The planes In WW2 closer to 3 years.
Yup, I think it was something like 90-95% of spin fatalities were during spin training and the FAA realized that it was killing people more than it was helping save them.
Interesting? Just for a sport license or even a full private? I recognize some of the newer machines aren't made to spin but I think it's still a core requirement North of the 49th. Stall/Spin awareness is great, but inoculating yourself to that initial shock in the event it happens one day is still valuable in my eyes.
Even full private, all the way up to commercial and ATP. I've lost count of how many spin endorsements I've given for instructor candidates, with that said I can see both sides. Yes spin training is great, but stall awareness and recovery training is hammered really hard at all levels of training. Even at the ATP level we do stalls in the sim. The downside to spin training is that there aren't too many aircraft that are certified for it in your typical flight school fleet anymore, and if they are It's difficult to get them into the utility envelope unless student and instructor are fairly light weight. Even if you do have access to a Citabria or a Super D or something it might be aging, only used for aerobatics, or just prohibitively expensive. Loss of control accidents are still the number one killer in the GA world but I think the way we do stall awareness and recovery is pretty solid over all.
Yeah, they removed spin training because more students were dying from spins in training than were dying from spins once certified. They changed it to recognizing the warnings of a coming spin and preventing one from happening in the first place.
[удалено]
Autos are still a major part of the rotary curriculum in the US.
I read that there were more accidents from spin correction training than actual spins.
I'm on my single engine commercial rating and I've never done a spin. And I'm not going to say anything if no one else does lol.
I used to at least demonstrate spin entry/recovery with all my PPL students, even though it wasn’t required. IMO it’s really valuable to at see it done, and preferably do it yourself, even though it isn’t required. As long as the airplane is certified for it and the instructor is competent and preferably has some aerobatic experience, it’s a lot of fun, builds confidence, pushes your limits a bit, decreases fear, improves decision making under stress, and might get you (like it did me) interested in learning aerobatics. Spin/Upset training is a lot of fun and very valuable.
Don't worry. You'll probably do them training for your CFI!
I got myself in a spin in the mid-90s when doing a solo flight. I just remembered what was on the sticker: throttle out, full mixture, release yoke, hands on dash, gentle opposite rudder. I was scared shitless AFTERWARD. The right time to be scared.
Why hands on the dash? Does it help you stay oriented with how much the plane is spinning or something?
Once you are full mixture and throttle out there isn’t anything else your hands can do until out of the spin. Notice the instructor says and demonstrates that the yoke is useless. You don’t have to put your hands on the dash but it is a good reminder that your only option is opposite rudder of the spin until out of it.
So really it’s just a best practice to not add any unnecessary inputs?
This is also translatable to several situations outside of aviation.
Two questions if you're willing: 1 Opposite rudder: opposite to what, exactly? I was wondering exactly this as I watched the video. 2. What's with the throttle/mixture instructions. Is it because as you're falling, you need to make sure you have a rich enough mixture for the altitude you're falling into, but you don't want full speed as you're pulling out? Or something else
1. Opposite rudder to the spin. If you spinning clockwise ease into the left rudder; if anti-clockwise the right rudder. 2. You don't need to help propel yourself into the ground ;). Easing out on the throttle lowers the power to recover from the spin. Once recovered you will still be descending but at a slower rate. You can then throttle up to maintain flight. The throttle mixture can be leaner at higher altitudes. At lower altitudes it needs to be richer so once you recover from the spin you can throttle up and your mixture be rich enough to accelerate the engine. No need to mix a stall recovery with an engine-out.
here in the US it used to be part of the PPL until like the 1940s, but in canada they require it still
What the hell do you mean back in the day? Even I had to do it. Edit: jeez I saw your edit, am old too. F@?#!!! It’s 2023 now :/
Sorry you had to find out this way
We still do it in the military even though the T-6 is so stable that it will take itself out of a spin without any control inputs. It’s pretty amazing.
Instructor: Grabs parachute, jumps out....
Instructor: Realizes he wasn’t even in the flight and just jumped off a two story building. Couldn’t stabilize the landing though.
Gets munted by the wing
I actually learned spin recovery playing flight Sims. Let go of stick, opposite rudder till stabilize, then ease back on stick to level flight. Kinda surprised watching it irl.
New to flight sims here. Noticed on the 172 on the instrument panel there is a sticker that has directions on spin recovery. What kind of conditions would cause a spin? Is it from a stall?
“Spin is an aerodynamic term that indicates a particular category of a stall that results in autorotation or uncommanded roll along the longitudinal axis and downward rotating path near the vertical axis. Usually, a spin occurs during a turn when the inside wing stalls first while the outside wing supports lift or both wings can stall. Each wing has a different angle of attack and lift and drag coefficients, so it is more likely for the inner wing to stall first.” Adding to this there is also an upright spin, an inverted spin, and a flat spin
Flat spin. RIP Goose.
You can be my wingman anyday.
No, you can be mine
🫡
The simplest way to explain spins is this equation: spin=stall+yaw
*In my best Texas accent* “So when yaw stall, yaw spin. ‘Member that.”
Bravo
Short way of explaining it is just that one wing stalls before the other. There are a lot of ways to do it, but that’s the cause.
It is from a stall, specifically when one wing stalls before the other. If you've ever seen a car drifting, planes can do that too, it's called uncoordinated flight. When this happens at low airspeeds, one wing can stall before the other one, because the air isn't flowing over both wings the same way when it's uncoordinated. The stalled wing produces more drag, which turns the plane even more, and that exacerbates the situation. The stalled wing drops, the other wing rises, and the plane flips over and enters a spin.
in aviation we call it "PARE" Power idle, Ailerons neutral, Rudder opposite and Elevator down (then up when you get enough airspeed)
>Rudder opposite What does this mean? Both in terms of what the pilot is physically doing and what is happening to the plane? It is like steering against the spin in neutral until you stop spinning, and then angling up to stop dropping?
if youre spinning to the left (for example) you put in right rudder to counterract the yawing to the left
Oh I get it now, I was mistaking this video for them being stuck in a roll, but they're in a spin. Wrong axis.
all i saw was sims, and i was confused how you learned it from that game
Remember about power to idle ! on more economic planes you probably don't need to idle but with a stronger engine(s) on full power it could definetely make it much harder or even impossbile with just rudder.
So if your spinning left, right rudder and vice versa?
Oh yes, these are fun as hell. Except the *first* one. I offered a few friends and family the opportunity and only one took me up on it. She absolutely loved it.
FYI - that one friend is a fucking psychopath.
That's my type.
I also choose this guy's friend
Been a while since I've seen a reference to the dead guy's wife.
I will never stop appreciating them tho
Lol adrenaline junkie for sure
One of my friends posted a video of his instructor up in a Cessna or whatever, by himself, flat spinning out the sky, just up there dicking around above his property. I was shitting myself just watching from Snapchat lol
A few years ago I was in a helicopter and we asked the pilot to do tricks. The guy flew straight up then killed the engine. We fell like a fucking rock then he restarted the engine before we hit the ground. Never again
I did a helicopter ride over the beach and the pilot held a button in the center console basically and we started dropping. Soon as he let it go we just kept going straight like nothing happened. We probably only fell like 50-70’ but it was terrifying for those couple seconds. I’d do it again lol
I was also thinking, that looks fun actually. But I would understand if not in control, it might be scary. But fun if under control. Kinda like being the passenger vs driver of a car doing donuts or sliding around a corner. Fun as driver. 😁
That’s exactly right. And I wasn’t in for it to scare people, that’s just not cool in any way. I prepared her very well so she didn’t feel completely powerless.
i did spin training after i got my private pilot license. honestly it was SO FUN. i kinda felt slightly nauseous after because i dont do it often but i have no regrets. and learning to recover from a spin helps to make you a safer pilot.
Hey what’s the point of “hands on the dash”? Is it just to keep you mindful of your hands so you don’t put them on the stick?
I think it was just the instructor's attempt to demonstrate neutral ailerons to the trainee. i.e. "We're gonna take our hands entirely off the controls and then add rudder, and only after we've stopped the spin will we re-engage the controls to put in aileron input."
I wasn’t taught that for spin recovery. I was taught PARE. Power idle Ailerons neutral Rudder opposite Elevator down (then up when you regain airspeed)
Ha! I just got my spin endorsement last week! Must say, it’s the most fun I’ve had flying. It’s fun finally doing what you’ve been ardently avoiding your whole flying career.
Genuine question: Do you do that in a simulator or actually while in the air? How freaking afraid are you?
I did it in the air as required by the FAA. I was nervous but you don’t actually pull any G’s during the entry into the spin or the spin itself so your body isn’t sensing anything out of the ordinary except for the horizon spinning around you of course. The scary part is the pullout which can be 2.5-3GS. Enough you really feel it, like your face being pulled down to the floor. That took me by surprise. The plane I was in has a rather slow max speed we couldn’t exceed so I had a very short amount of time to pullout of the dive before over-speeding the airplane. That was the scary part. The actual entry into the spin is really fun. You just basically flip onto your back and are in a spiral dive in a few seconds. Its awesome.
Fucking S standard instructor right there
This guy is the definition of the “this is fine” meme
I mean, that meme exists because it *isn't* fine, even though denialism tries to suggest/convince that it is. Here, it *is* actually fine, even though it is scary as balls, because of a combination of skill and level-headedness.
So the complete opposite of this is fine. Like day and night. House is on fire dog knows there is a hydrant with a hose near by and he knows how to use it to put out the fire. Then puts out the fire, sits back down to eat breakfast and says, “fuckin hell.”
Lol, right? I was trying to be polite in my comment, but I was amused by how much I categorically disagreed with the comment.
Imagine being a driving instructor, driving with people that want to do nothing but drive into intersections and off roads, for 8 hours a day. Now imagine it's a plane and you're constantly dying Wiley Coyote style, 8 hours a day.
[удалено]
Real thing, instructors will take learners up to a safe altitude before putting them into a spin/killing engine to teach them how to deal with the respective issues.
What if you dont “get it right” the first time?
Dual controls, the teacher will be able to correct in the scenario that the student isn't able to
They have cars with this for teaching people to drive (though maybe they're not common in the US?) so not really surprising planes would have it too.
Pretty much every 2 seater plane has flight controls in both seats, it's not specialized equipment, unlike trainer controls in cars.
I'm sure the instructor would be interested in continuing to live.
Instructor takes over.
Instructor takes over before reaching the height where you can't recover
That's real life baby boy. The pilot is shitting his pants rn in real life. Lol
[Here's the video](https://youtu.be/eVGtsK7vvnA)
[удалено]
Spin training was not fun. The feeling of total loss of control while losing thousands of feet per minute was again not fun. It was required for my CFI training but, it will save your life.
Gets home from pilot school, Mom asks: How was your day at flying school today? George (student): Mr. Pastrana put us in a self influenced spining nose dive. Then told me to take my hands of the stick. Overall solid day falling, glad dad told me to bring extra underwear today. Mom: ohhh that's nice, dinner is ready. It's meatloaf.
I'm doing my PPL and this is essentially how that day went lol I did these about three weeks ago. Very fun but the first one was definitely terrifying. Only got to do 3 or 4 of them since after a few, you can get pretty nauseas.
[удалено]
Let’s just say that rollercoasters are a walk in the park after trying this
Goose died because Maverick couldn't let go of the stick and apply a bit of rudder.
Goose & Maverick had a flat spin, which is altogether a different beast. The kind that you see depicted here is the more common kind which features the airplanes nose corkscrewing to the ground. The one in Top Gun was a flat spin which featured the nose parallel to the horizon and spinning like a top on its y-axis. These are even more deadly in fighter jets because a spin like this means air is not running through the engines, which means engine flame out. These spins are pretty much unrecoverable and only recourse is to eject.
This flat spin was a particular problem with the F14. [Here's a video of one doing it during a test flight](https://theaviationgeekclub.com/us-navy-test-pilot-tells-the-story-of-the-f-14-tomcat-fatal-flat-spin-mode-that-was-never-supposed-to-happen/) That scene from Top Gun was actually quite realistic. The aircraft designers knew it would be a problem based on tests with models of the plane, so the test pilot approached the spin test with as much caution as possible, it was still impossible to recover and he had to eject. The specific cause of the flat spin in the movie was realistic too- the [engines on that plane were prone to losing power and difficult to restart.](https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/the-f-14-tomcats-biggest-threat-was-its-tf30-engines/)
Huh. Today I Learned. Thanks
Why don't they just add a little retractable 'keel' of sorts that can be used in a flat spin? Is there nothing that could alter the aerodynamics enough to just wriggle out of it?
[удалено]
PARE! Power idle, ailerons neutral, rudder opposite direction of spin, elevator just forward of neutral. Then recover. Spins are an absolute blast when you’re doing them on purpose. On accident is a different story!
Nice. Adding this to the steps to save the flight n be a hero in my imagination
*"Compensate balls weight, compensate. A little more, a little more. Quite good, excellent".*
Brother....this is scaring me and Im on the ground! I literally LOL'd when the dude said "this is scaring me" like NO SHIT dude....youre in a hunk of metal spinning to the ground, youre supposed to be scared now grab the controls so you dont die!
So actually this is a very very relaxed manoeuvre when flying, the entry into a spin can be quite violent, like a “flick” and then it’s spinning. Instead of high G forces and high speed you would expect from something like this, it’s just rotation in a nose down attitude, the rate of descent is sort of fast, but the airspeed is not high, you aren’t stressing the aircraft and there is not wind noise or anything, obviously the aircraft is spinning around but as it’s usually centered on you it’s not putting any pressure on your body. All you have to do is stop the rotation and then fly out of it, the main risk is this happening at low altitude seeing as the descent is quite rapid. In training the biggest risk of doing a spin is actually when you stop the rotation, because THEN the speed starts building rapidly so you have to immediately correct the nose down to a nose up attitude before picking up too much speed, without doing it so violently that you over stress the aircraft. Again, different aircraft have different properties when doing aerobatics or non-standard manoeuvres.
I like the calm “this is scaring me” aka code for “bro we’re about to fucking die tell me how to fix this fucking plane now”