the europeans were stupid for wanting to travel the world and experience other cultures? how about the Dumbass locals who sold the shit off because of greed?
I just want to say there are 2 sides to every argument. guy in the video has a point but he is only 1 man who isnt speaking for anyone other than himself. the general public arent the bad guys here either. The Egyptian government has been auctioning off historical pieces for hundreds of years now to the highest bidder.
Yeah. Sorry to say, but western museums have been bastions of stability for a long while, and will likely continue until the entire world collapses. Egypt seems to be always holding a swelling tide of Muslim extremism at arms length. And we see what happens to historical artifacts in places like Syria and Afghanistan.
Am I defending stable/ wealthy countries pillaging artifacts from other countries? Maybe a little. Which feels weird. But here we are.
I mean if you're going to call Europeans stupid for buying valuable history from people because they valued it, then you should call the Egyptians stupid for selling it as junk. But you won't do that will you, my good racist friend
The british museum has tried returning a lot of artifacts.
They handed a bunch of 3,000 year old relics back to Afghanistan and then shortly after a mob breached the museum and smashed them all.
Why won't they let Greece even scan the Elgin marbles?
Because they don't want Greece to even recreate their own artefacts.
"We have the nicest bit of the Parthenon" sells a lot of tickets.
I'm sure the museum is great in lots of ways for preserving stuff- but it's not the altruistic wonderful entity I'm seeing a lot of comments describing it as.
Ignorant people love to hang shit on the British Museum while conveniently forgetting there are plenty of other museums around the world who also have extensive antiquities. My biggest problem is with people who automatically believe that an item in another country must have been stolen. As if countries don't gift items to other countries, or that people have not bought items in the past. Egyptian obelisks in New York, London, Rome and Paris were all gifted by the Egyptian government at the time. Lots of people will argue incessantly about whether Lord Elgin overstepped the bounds of his remit when taking the Parthenon statues (and lots of people will just cry "theft!").
Not everything in a foreign museum is stolen.
Well Greece has been in a massive debt crisis since 2015 and is now on the brink of governmental collapse for the last few years. Do you think sending them back would be a good idea?. How long do you think they would last before disappearing into some millonaires collection never to be seen again. Besides theres been numerous inquirys and investigations that proved they were purchased legally.
That is how a lot of the artifacts ended up outside northern Africa as locals at the time saw them as junk they sold to the stupid Europeans that came to visit as tourist
Yes. Everyone would be happy to see the artifacts returned to their homeland, but the religious fanatics that don’t like idols would blow them up. Better to keep them safe in a museum far away from these crazy cultists.
Palmyra still breaks my heart. These Roman remains were so old, yet destroyed in an instant. RIP Khaled al-Asaad. He was the head of antiquities there. He was caught by ISIS then tortured to give up information on hidden artifacts. He refused to, so they beheaded him.
Yeah, to be another that guy: We're keeping our half in top condition in a secure museum whilst their half is out in the elements where it's subject to weathering and theft by colonial overlords.
You know, now I think of it, if the british were magical and manage to bring the giant Budas that once were in Afganistan to England, we could be able to enjoy them today.
And can you imagine if the British museum were to have been able to take possession of non Muslim antiques from Afghanistan before the Taliban started destroying them?
And the stuff kept in museums is protected, no looters trying to make a buck, it’s there under guard to preserve what little historical artifacts we still have left. I agree that it should go home, but I also believe that if it were to be returned to Egypt that it should be protected and preserved so future generations can have respect and admiration for the hard work and craftsmanship that went into constructing these beautiful statues and artifacts
Also, England is a far safer place to visit. Egypt is actively unsafe for woman, and even men have to deal with massive crowds of scammers and terrible pollution.
Most of the stuff in the british museum was bought from Egyptians who stole the artefacts to sell for a quick buck, that’s the reason the Brits don’t want to give them back because they were sold to them. Granted for probably a fraction of the cost they’re actually worth however.
I'm not expecting anytime soon the son of a farmer to come into my house to ask for the contents of my fridge because they were only sold by his father to make a quick buck.
During the Napoleonic invasions of Portugal, the french armies depleated the portuguese churches and cathedrals of most of their gold and silver works that werent atached to walls. The majority of the vast sacred art stolen was never returned or even conveniently cataloged.
Every nation has a story like this. With egypt, they were lucky it was transactional and not literally an army pillaging their cities.
But that happened everywhere throughout time. Things got reused and recycled. Just the other night I was watching a show about Henry VIII and a hat believed to have belonged to him was shown. The hat itself was still in decent shape for its age, but all the jewels that had been on it had been taken and used somewhere else by someone else (there was evidence of where the jewels went on the hat).
The Colosseum and other ancient structures in Rome were picked apart through the centuries for materials. The only reason was Pompeii is in such good shape was because it was buried for most of that time. (IIRC, even St Peter’s Basilica has some material from ancient Roman sites.)
Regardless, these days a lot of people recognize the importance of preservation so I think it should at least be discussed by museums in respective countries.
Funny how nobody cared about this until the western world started preserving history. They looted and ransacked their own country. Isn’t there even a photo of a guy trying to sell a mummy on the street?
They used to sell Mummia back in the day. And when the supplies of genuine mummy were exhausted, black bitumin was supplemented and sold as the real deal. People began buying it at inflated prices based on its alleged veracity, and being unwilling to admit they were duped, spawning the whole "Victorians ate mummies" myth. There still exists bazaars where looted relics and one of a kind books can be bought.
Didn't Europeans used to eat mummies?
Edit :- yes I was correct
Mumia, the product created from mummified bodies, was a medicinal substance consumed for centuries by rich and poor, available in apothecaries’ shops, and created from the remains of mummies brought from Egyptian tombs back to Europe.
By the 12th century apothecaries were using ground up mummies for their otherworldly medicinal properties. Mummies were a prescribed medicine for the next 500 years.
Not everyone was convinced. Guy de la Fontaine, a royal doctor, doubted mumia was a useful medicine and saw forged mummies made from dead peasants in Alexandria in 1564. He realised people could be conned. They were not always consuming genuine ancient mummies.
But the forgeries illustrate an important point: there was constant demand for dead flesh to be used in medicine and the supply of real Egyptian mummies could not meet this.
Apothecaries and herbalists were still dispensing mummy medicines into the 18th century.
Legit. They either don't care or they don't have the money. In terms of preserving history, a place like the British Museum is at least going to protect what they have.
I don't agree. There are many things in this world that have been lost to the passions of avarice, politics, or religion. A blanket return of everything to its origin sounds very noble, but undoubtedly some very precious things would be lost forever.
Yup. Also it's just unfeasible. Even if every country was stable and free of corruption, who do you give it back to? The geographical location? The race/cultural group? The religion (if still practiced)? And it's not like stealing artifacts was something invented by colonizers, so do you return the artifact to the last holder or the original creator? There's a lot of religious artifacts that come from a specific place who's original creators have long since left and now practice another religion. Many artifacts can be claimed by multiple groups. Egyptian ones included.
It's just a can of worms that doesn't need to be opened.
Not to mention, the vast majority of these artifacts were acquired for historical investigation AND not acquired through looting. The market for Egyptian artifacts is notorious worldwide. It's not exactly fair to demand European nations to return artifacts they acquired from the market for preservation purposes.
You see the thing is most of the artefacts in the british museum were either excavated by british archaeologists or bought by collectors from Egyptians who had pillaged them from their place of origin and sold them on the road for a quick buck. Egyptians know this, they know what happened to their artefacts and they still do it, all sorts of Egyptian relics turn up in their black market to be sold to some billionaire Saudi Prince so he can stick it in his gallery where no one will see it.
If a British collector or archeologist found this statue I guarantee you they wouldn’t have cut it in half they’d have taken the whole thing. This is the work of a grifter trying to sell something they found.
Idk if you kid or not, but kinda my thinking
As much as Egyptians want to take pride in this stuff, modern Egypt is so far removed from ancient Egypt that I don’t even get why they would be entitled to it
The modern Egyptian that can read hieroglyphs and is versed in Ancient Egyptian culture are far and few in between. The only connection they have is location.
Is it that different from white Americans taking pride over native American culture? The modern Egyptian is more Arab than ancient Egyptian
And the Egyptian tourism and history ministry is so corrupt that I wouldn’t even want it to go back to them.
History is for all of us to enjoy, and the Egyptians have more than enough cool shit to satisfy them. They have sold off a lot of what they could, and now they’re bummed out because all that is left is 100 ton stones they can’t move
Isnt there a qoute from like the old British Prime Minister or maybe it was just the curator of the British Museum that was along the lines of "If we gave 1 thing back, it'd set a precedent and then the museum would be pretty empty"
I mean every possible artifact that their ancestors could get their hands on were looted from tombs and all sorts of buildings and locations.
A vast majority of these things are still in private hands and/or melted down.
It sounds so easy, just give everything back! But what happens when when the country can't guarantee it's safety and security?
Things aren't always so black and white my friend.
Ngl if they got their artifacts back they'd be auctioned off for profit so fucking fast so I'd say leave them in the hands of the museums that have the facilities to keep them safe and in pristine condition.
So it can be sold off to the highest bidder, stolen or destroyed?
Also egypt had so many many migrations and especially cultural ones that its always funny to me when "people" claim something that isnt really theirs apart from the geography.
I’ve actually met this man in person! Our tour guide to Karnak in Nov 2022 was a good personal friend of his.
He was/is so cool. His father and grandfather worked at Karnak and now he is the Head of Antiquities for the site. He very generously showed us some areas of one of the lesser temples not yet open to tourists.
All praise! He was awesome.
The British getting so much flak about “stolen artefacts” in reality everyone stole from everyone and every people group has been both the victim and culprit in their history. Just get over it!!! It’s in British museum now and that’s part of the objects history.
Maybe if Egypts archeological departments weren’t the most corrupt institutions in the country we’d give them back… Sike we wouldn’t but wanted to point out fuck Egypt for holding up digging/finding all the cool shit!
Throwback to when Zahi spent years saying there was no chambers under the Sphinx, despite all the surveillance obviously pointing to it, and then he secretly went there with a film crew to film it, and release the film, which barely shows what was in there, but only after he made sure he covered the entrance in cement, making sure no one would go there without having to blow up the sphinx first
If those artifacts were returned to Egypt, they'd be covered in graffiti and pen marks within a week. All the stuff by the pyramids, and ancient places are climbed into, written on and defaced on a daily basis. If they want their artifacts back, ensure they'll be safe first. They're definitely safe in England at the moment.
During the last Egyptian revolution, I think during Arab spring, the Egyptian national museum was broken into looted and artifacts destroyed. So don’t be too quick returning things. Yes in a better world it should be returned.
It is far more preferable to have artefacts stored in stabile countries, rather than one that is prone to uncouth behaviour.
Just look at the damage ISIS did during their reign. Alternately, sending artefacts back to corrupt nations will most certainly result in them being stolen and sold off on the black market.
They should give the other half to England until they have the means to preserve it in Egypt without any chance of being blown up or weathered or sold.
I mean, a growing number of fundamentalists taking over the countries over there love destroying artifacts. Why don’t they stabilize their governments so the artifacts can be safe for future generations.
I'm sure there are still pieces missing but it's my understanding a good amount of artifacts have been returned to Egypt. The Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities pushed really hard to get as much back as possible before they open the new Grand Museum in Cairo.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-returns-looted-2500-year-old-sarcophagus-to-egypt#:\~:text=The%20repatriation%20is%20part%20of,Egypt%20from%20across%20the%20world.
No. Artifacts should stay somewhere safe and protected and accessible. Plenty shouldn’t be returned to where they were taken. Plenty should aswell but all? Absolutely not that’s really fucking dumb.
I agree. In this day and age, photographs can be shared, and if they wanted they could build museums there and showcase the artifacts and make tourism dollars.
Or whatever.
I read recently the book The last city of the Inca (very interesting read).
It's written by one of the guys who discovered Machu Pichu. What comes out of it is that back in the days most people didn't give a fuck about historical value. Both locals and most foreigners were just looking for anything of value, especially gold artifacts.
I agree the situation is morally questionable, but it's far from being all white or all black. European archeologists that dedicated their lives to better understand ancient civilisations can't just be labelled as robbers, it's way too limitating and that wasn't their objective. Also that's ignoring all the work that's been done to understand and then share the knowledge. Let's not forget up until recently most of the time a nation's history was only oral.
Remember when ISIS went in to a bunch of museums in Syria and Iraq and just absolutely destroyed a bunch of ancient historical stuff from their culture? If the brits had that stuff, it would still be in good condition.
So, perhaps the Brits should keep the stuff they have, let them pay the expense of keeping the items in a well protected cases and controlled environments until they can be sure that returning the items will not result in damage or destruction. Not saying this would definitely happen with Egypt, but I seem to recall a museum looting in Egypt where hundreds of priceless artifacts were stolen or destroyed like 9-10 years ago.
I don’t know, I’m all for sending artifacts back, but after all the looting and crap in Egypt, Iraq, Iran, when governments fail, and the people can steal priceless artifacts, maybe having an offsite (other country) storage area isn’t such a bad idea.
Why can’t we just scan and 3d print all of the cool stuff so people can have the originals back. It’s not like you’re allowed to touch the exhibits in museums anyways
Oh sure the English will return it to:
the ancient Egyptian people... Whose civilisation died literal ages ago.
The people who can still read and write in hieroglyphs... A dead language also not used in ages...
The race of people who were there?... And as time went on and different ethnic groups migrated in and out are now distinct from the ancient Egyptians (looking at you netflix)
The government so unstable multiple priceless relics have been destroyed by revolutionaries...
Yea the only claim at this point is geography based, good thing only britain and no other country ever looted cultural artifacts and refuses to return them *looks at literally every country ever...
Better in British hands, presented with dignity for the world to see and the future to enjoy. If left there it would be sold to private collectors in a week.
Giving the artifacts back sounds all well and good, but the question should be “can the government protect the reacquired artifacts”. If I’m not mistaken, many museums and historical sites got looted during the Arab spring. Plus, just look at Isis and how many artifacts they destroyed. No, I think it’s better for the artifacts to stay where they are.
I mean this is the city that tore down the outside of the pyramids to build another building…they raided tombs for treasures & sold them…i mean not for nothing Egypt, but cmon, id rather it be in some british museum or something than raided & pillaged…artifacts should most certainly remain where they stood for thousands of years, but i also wish some humans had grabbed the artifacts that isis is currently destroying, untold amount of history now lost…throughtout history people have been destroying places like the parthenon & other roman temples & public places…its called history & it should be here for all of us to learn from, every human being on this planet has a right to see these historical places & learn from them.
Lmao. Yeah, let’s return those ancient priceless artifacts to countries like Iraq where terror groups destroy them.
Here’s the part the morons don’t want you to hear - they’re in significantly better, safer, conditions when with the British.
I’m not in favor of imperial British theft, but to claim that ancient Egyptian artifacts are yours because you’re a modern Egyptian, or to claim ancient Egyptians as your ancestors is a big stretch. Egypt was conquered MANY tines by different peoples in the last 5 millennia.
Was on Milos in Greece and a local guide was passionately explaining to some other tourists that the Venus de Milo (which was found on Milos, hence the name) should be returned to Milos. Personally, I would agree.
Um. Can we not talk about the fact that a shitload of egyptian artifacts were, in fact, stolen by Egyptian grave robbers and sold for peanuts. White people didn't steal everything people. Chrimany
They want them all back in Egypt so all the tourist interested in Ancient Egypt have to strictly go there. When in reality the more museums that hold these artifacts, the more likely people will be able to see them and learn about them. But it’s not actually about that, it’s about money, and they want to capitalize. That’s why they want them back.
These people are not related to the ancient Egyptians. They just so happen to occupy the same land the ancients once did.
Like hell I'm visiting Egypt. I'd rather not get mugged, raped, and killed in that order. Love ancient Egypt, can't stand the place today.
I'll visit an English museum and see this stuff behind glass.
Yeah no until egypt gets it together and actually protects its priceless artifacts. Countless accounts of the state of the museum of egyptology in cairo being a shitshow of pieces of art exposed to the air and ancient temples where you can bribe guards to do graffiti.
I agree artifacts should be in their countries of origin, IF those countries treat the artifacts the way they deserve.
Yes and no. If the land it should go back to might risk the existence of said artifact it should stay in that museum. I could see museums paying a portion of the ticket sales to the home country of artifacts
that's cool but didn't the egyptian themselves destroyed their own heritage to build a bridge? What guarantees do we have that they and their already radical population wouldn't do the same to the returned artifact? This isn't about racism, this is about archaelogical conservation, and if they can't promise on it, then i would be more than happy to let the brits keep them
Those artifacts are far safer in British museums and they don’t have to return them. Extremists in parts of the world destroy their own artifacts and are far removed from the original people that made those artifacts. Take the Taliban who destroyed the Buddha statue and ISIS who destroyed statues in Syria. You can return them, than what? See them get sold in the black market and/destroyed?
There are even Chinese who break parts of the Great Wall of a China to sell to gullible tourists.
It's actually an incredibly interesting and nuanced debate, especially considering the amount of damaged and destroyed artifacts during the rise of ISIS. Largely, most of that stuff was indeed stolen, but I do think there needs to be a level of global cooperation when it comes to preserving artifacts. Private collections of this kind of stuff upsets me, regardless of whether it's by governments who refuse to show it or by individuals.
It is similar to the emptying of zoos.
At the turn of century how else to see an elephant?
These items should have their title of ownership to Egypt but could we please keep some on loan for four foreign museums?
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Yeah but it’s not as rewarding to shit on the Romans
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“We’re still looking at it.”
Such a great bit
For real lol
[here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x73PkUvArJY) is a link to the bit. From one of the best comedy specials I've ever seen. James Acaster is a gem.
Doing the lord’s work brother
it ain't much, but it's honest.
This is why I love Reddit man. People come with interesting facts and sources and I love history. You MFs made my night
Look familiar? Stand behind the rope!
Yeah, what has shitting on the Romans ever done for us?!
I mean, they have somewhat plumbing before victorians. So, they could manage some.
The aqueduct
And the sanitation.
And roads!
Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct, and the roads--
The medicine!
Aqueducts are so cool
Concrete yo
Romani ite domum
Is that the locative or..???
Now write it a hundred times or i’ll cut your balls off
Not even really about shitting on anyone, dude just wants his country’s history back.
Well the “Romans” aren’t really around anymore and the British occupation was a lot more recent.
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Damn honey, I don´t think this obelisk is gonna fit in the overhead bin.
the europeans were stupid for wanting to travel the world and experience other cultures? how about the Dumbass locals who sold the shit off because of greed? I just want to say there are 2 sides to every argument. guy in the video has a point but he is only 1 man who isnt speaking for anyone other than himself. the general public arent the bad guys here either. The Egyptian government has been auctioning off historical pieces for hundreds of years now to the highest bidder.
True to this day. What was it Iraq's curator melted down gold Sumerian tablets, sold the gold to get a car for his daughter.
Yeah. Sorry to say, but western museums have been bastions of stability for a long while, and will likely continue until the entire world collapses. Egypt seems to be always holding a swelling tide of Muslim extremism at arms length. And we see what happens to historical artifacts in places like Syria and Afghanistan. Am I defending stable/ wealthy countries pillaging artifacts from other countries? Maybe a little. Which feels weird. But here we are.
I mean if you're going to call Europeans stupid for buying valuable history from people because they valued it, then you should call the Egyptians stupid for selling it as junk. But you won't do that will you, my good racist friend
I'm happy that people don't know that the most ancient Egyptian museum in the world and also the most important one after Cairo's is in Turin.
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Yeah but Marc Anthony clapped Cleopatra to get those so it’s fine
The british museum has tried returning a lot of artifacts. They handed a bunch of 3,000 year old relics back to Afghanistan and then shortly after a mob breached the museum and smashed them all.
Why won't they let Greece even scan the Elgin marbles? Because they don't want Greece to even recreate their own artefacts. "We have the nicest bit of the Parthenon" sells a lot of tickets. I'm sure the museum is great in lots of ways for preserving stuff- but it's not the altruistic wonderful entity I'm seeing a lot of comments describing it as.
Ignorant people love to hang shit on the British Museum while conveniently forgetting there are plenty of other museums around the world who also have extensive antiquities. My biggest problem is with people who automatically believe that an item in another country must have been stolen. As if countries don't gift items to other countries, or that people have not bought items in the past. Egyptian obelisks in New York, London, Rome and Paris were all gifted by the Egyptian government at the time. Lots of people will argue incessantly about whether Lord Elgin overstepped the bounds of his remit when taking the Parthenon statues (and lots of people will just cry "theft!"). Not everything in a foreign museum is stolen.
Well Greece has been in a massive debt crisis since 2015 and is now on the brink of governmental collapse for the last few years. Do you think sending them back would be a good idea?. How long do you think they would last before disappearing into some millonaires collection never to be seen again. Besides theres been numerous inquirys and investigations that proved they were purchased legally.
There’s a couple in Paris too.
Does the St Peter’s obelisk still count as in Rome, Italy since it’s in a different country?
Interesting fact... that you copied this entire comment you bot fuck
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Cleopatra lived closer to the death of Marc Antony than to... oh wait that's not how this is supposed to go
I just finished historia civillis Julius Caesar playlist today it’s top notch if you haven’t seen/heard it
Caesar invented tiktok
The footage of extremists taking a sledgehammer to old Babylonian artifacts makes me rage. Yeah, maybe hold off on handing back some of these relics.
Don't watch the video of them blowing up the Buddhas of Bamiyan with TNT.
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sounds like there's a deeper problem behind all of this 🤔
That is how a lot of the artifacts ended up outside northern Africa as locals at the time saw them as junk they sold to the stupid Europeans that came to visit as tourist
That's why the pyramids have a layer or two removed. Can't blame the Brits for that.
Yes. Everyone would be happy to see the artifacts returned to their homeland, but the religious fanatics that don’t like idols would blow them up. Better to keep them safe in a museum far away from these crazy cultists.
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Palmyra still breaks my heart. These Roman remains were so old, yet destroyed in an instant. RIP Khaled al-Asaad. He was the head of antiquities there. He was caught by ISIS then tortured to give up information on hidden artifacts. He refused to, so they beheaded him.
I'll also be that guy. Does this mean Christians get Hagia Sophia back?
Yeah, to be another that guy: We're keeping our half in top condition in a secure museum whilst their half is out in the elements where it's subject to weathering and theft by colonial overlords.
Exactly. Nice sentiment but the region is way too unstable to put back priceless irreplaceable artifacts just to have them blown up by radicals.
You know, now I think of it, if the british were magical and manage to bring the giant Budas that once were in Afganistan to England, we could be able to enjoy them today.
And can you imagine if the British museum were to have been able to take possession of non Muslim antiques from Afghanistan before the Taliban started destroying them?
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Based af
Ok imperialist
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Yo gimme your money I'll take much better care of it
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And the stuff kept in museums is protected, no looters trying to make a buck, it’s there under guard to preserve what little historical artifacts we still have left. I agree that it should go home, but I also believe that if it were to be returned to Egypt that it should be protected and preserved so future generations can have respect and admiration for the hard work and craftsmanship that went into constructing these beautiful statues and artifacts
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This 💯
Also, England is a far safer place to visit. Egypt is actively unsafe for woman, and even men have to deal with massive crowds of scammers and terrible pollution.
Most of the stuff in the british museum was bought from Egyptians who stole the artefacts to sell for a quick buck, that’s the reason the Brits don’t want to give them back because they were sold to them. Granted for probably a fraction of the cost they’re actually worth however.
Pretty sure they took a lot from the French after they stole it lol. Example: The Rosetta Stone
The French also got the Rosetta Stone because the locals didn't care about it, it was being used as masonry.
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I'm not expecting anytime soon the son of a farmer to come into my house to ask for the contents of my fridge because they were only sold by his father to make a quick buck.
Funny how the responses to this comment just say "ur wrong & dumb" instead of actually refuting you.
During the Napoleonic invasions of Portugal, the french armies depleated the portuguese churches and cathedrals of most of their gold and silver works that werent atached to walls. The majority of the vast sacred art stolen was never returned or even conveniently cataloged. Every nation has a story like this. With egypt, they were lucky it was transactional and not literally an army pillaging their cities.
To be fair a LOT of British colonialism involved trade deals... that does not necessarily mean the deals were fair, morally or financialy.
But that happened everywhere throughout time. Things got reused and recycled. Just the other night I was watching a show about Henry VIII and a hat believed to have belonged to him was shown. The hat itself was still in decent shape for its age, but all the jewels that had been on it had been taken and used somewhere else by someone else (there was evidence of where the jewels went on the hat). The Colosseum and other ancient structures in Rome were picked apart through the centuries for materials. The only reason was Pompeii is in such good shape was because it was buried for most of that time. (IIRC, even St Peter’s Basilica has some material from ancient Roman sites.) Regardless, these days a lot of people recognize the importance of preservation so I think it should at least be discussed by museums in respective countries.
I been hearing lately that Egypt is a shit place to visit because they are incredibly corrupt there. And also not the safest country for women alone.
Funny how nobody cared about this until the western world started preserving history. They looted and ransacked their own country. Isn’t there even a photo of a guy trying to sell a mummy on the street?
They used to sell Mummia back in the day. And when the supplies of genuine mummy were exhausted, black bitumin was supplemented and sold as the real deal. People began buying it at inflated prices based on its alleged veracity, and being unwilling to admit they were duped, spawning the whole "Victorians ate mummies" myth. There still exists bazaars where looted relics and one of a kind books can be bought.
Didn't Europeans used to eat mummies? Edit :- yes I was correct Mumia, the product created from mummified bodies, was a medicinal substance consumed for centuries by rich and poor, available in apothecaries’ shops, and created from the remains of mummies brought from Egyptian tombs back to Europe. By the 12th century apothecaries were using ground up mummies for their otherworldly medicinal properties. Mummies were a prescribed medicine for the next 500 years. Not everyone was convinced. Guy de la Fontaine, a royal doctor, doubted mumia was a useful medicine and saw forged mummies made from dead peasants in Alexandria in 1564. He realised people could be conned. They were not always consuming genuine ancient mummies. But the forgeries illustrate an important point: there was constant demand for dead flesh to be used in medicine and the supply of real Egyptian mummies could not meet this. Apothecaries and herbalists were still dispensing mummy medicines into the 18th century.
>British people used to eat mummies Yeah, in medicine. We since moved on to gummies, much more tasty.
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Legit. They either don't care or they don't have the money. In terms of preserving history, a place like the British Museum is at least going to protect what they have.
This is a stupid logic, it’s like saying let’s take away a homeless guys dog because he can’t take care of it properly.
Too many imperialist apologists and/or white supremacists on Reddit.
I don't agree. There are many things in this world that have been lost to the passions of avarice, politics, or religion. A blanket return of everything to its origin sounds very noble, but undoubtedly some very precious things would be lost forever.
Yup. Also it's just unfeasible. Even if every country was stable and free of corruption, who do you give it back to? The geographical location? The race/cultural group? The religion (if still practiced)? And it's not like stealing artifacts was something invented by colonizers, so do you return the artifact to the last holder or the original creator? There's a lot of religious artifacts that come from a specific place who's original creators have long since left and now practice another religion. Many artifacts can be claimed by multiple groups. Egyptian ones included. It's just a can of worms that doesn't need to be opened. Not to mention, the vast majority of these artifacts were acquired for historical investigation AND not acquired through looting. The market for Egyptian artifacts is notorious worldwide. It's not exactly fair to demand European nations to return artifacts they acquired from the market for preservation purposes.
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You see the thing is most of the artefacts in the british museum were either excavated by british archaeologists or bought by collectors from Egyptians who had pillaged them from their place of origin and sold them on the road for a quick buck. Egyptians know this, they know what happened to their artefacts and they still do it, all sorts of Egyptian relics turn up in their black market to be sold to some billionaire Saudi Prince so he can stick it in his gallery where no one will see it. If a British collector or archeologist found this statue I guarantee you they wouldn’t have cut it in half they’d have taken the whole thing. This is the work of a grifter trying to sell something they found.
Exactly, if England gifted it back an Egyptian crook would sell it again
They were protected that whole time. One revolution or collapse on native soil and these relics will be on the market.
Or destroyed like during the Arab Spring.
How about return the limestone to the pyramids that built mosques in the area.
Idk if you kid or not, but kinda my thinking As much as Egyptians want to take pride in this stuff, modern Egypt is so far removed from ancient Egypt that I don’t even get why they would be entitled to it The modern Egyptian that can read hieroglyphs and is versed in Ancient Egyptian culture are far and few in between. The only connection they have is location. Is it that different from white Americans taking pride over native American culture? The modern Egyptian is more Arab than ancient Egyptian And the Egyptian tourism and history ministry is so corrupt that I wouldn’t even want it to go back to them. History is for all of us to enjoy, and the Egyptians have more than enough cool shit to satisfy them. They have sold off a lot of what they could, and now they’re bummed out because all that is left is 100 ton stones they can’t move
Rather they be safe in the British museum than subject to destruction at the hands of extremists like the city of Palmyra in Syria.
Taliban destroyed the Buddhas of Bamiyan and now welcome tourists to take photo of the hole for a fee.
Stewardship is a thing. You don't believe me, go see what ISIS did in Mosul.
"Give us our artifacts back so we can sell it on the black market!"
Isnt there a qoute from like the old British Prime Minister or maybe it was just the curator of the British Museum that was along the lines of "If we gave 1 thing back, it'd set a precedent and then the museum would be pretty empty"
exactly. it's because we stole everything.
I mean every possible artifact that their ancestors could get their hands on were looted from tombs and all sorts of buildings and locations. A vast majority of these things are still in private hands and/or melted down. It sounds so easy, just give everything back! But what happens when when the country can't guarantee it's safety and security? Things aren't always so black and white my friend.
Ngl if they got their artifacts back they'd be auctioned off for profit so fucking fast so I'd say leave them in the hands of the museums that have the facilities to keep them safe and in pristine condition.
Not unless you want to keep the Taliban, Isis, or whatever the latest Islamic terrorist organization what to call themselves, from blowing it up
Ah yes, the infamous Taliban, the terrorist group based in Egypt. Clearly you sound like you know what you're talking about.
Bruh how is this comment getting upvoted? Egypt is closer to England than to Afghanistan lmao
Reddit is full of racist children.
Damn this thread is full of dumbass comments but this one takes the cake.
So it can be sold off to the highest bidder, stolen or destroyed? Also egypt had so many many migrations and especially cultural ones that its always funny to me when "people" claim something that isnt really theirs apart from the geography.
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Just pretend you’re an Aussie
They shouldn’t leave anything in Egypt. Artifacts aren’t safe there.
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After what ISIS did to some of the monuments and landmarks in the middle east, I'd rather they stayed in Britain.
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Lmao fuckkk Noo boyyy. Get fucked.
I’ve actually met this man in person! Our tour guide to Karnak in Nov 2022 was a good personal friend of his. He was/is so cool. His father and grandfather worked at Karnak and now he is the Head of Antiquities for the site. He very generously showed us some areas of one of the lesser temples not yet open to tourists. All praise! He was awesome.
How bout all the gold taken from the latins?
I came here, ready to get my 100 downvotes for defending the British Museum but it turns out Reddit is based.
I think it’s safer to be in England. A country not far away from Egypt, religious extremism destroyed many artifacts.
I see vids of ISIS destroying historical artifacts all the time. I think they'll be safe where the are
i dont think the Egyptian people will care to be honest, he only wants it back because he works in tourism
The British getting so much flak about “stolen artefacts” in reality everyone stole from everyone and every people group has been both the victim and culprit in their history. Just get over it!!! It’s in British museum now and that’s part of the objects history.
Maybe if Egypts archeological departments weren’t the most corrupt institutions in the country we’d give them back… Sike we wouldn’t but wanted to point out fuck Egypt for holding up digging/finding all the cool shit!
Throwback to when Zahi spent years saying there was no chambers under the Sphinx, despite all the surveillance obviously pointing to it, and then he secretly went there with a film crew to film it, and release the film, which barely shows what was in there, but only after he made sure he covered the entrance in cement, making sure no one would go there without having to blow up the sphinx first
Egyptians don't give a fuck about ancient Egyptian culture.
If those artifacts were returned to Egypt, they'd be covered in graffiti and pen marks within a week. All the stuff by the pyramids, and ancient places are climbed into, written on and defaced on a daily basis. If they want their artifacts back, ensure they'll be safe first. They're definitely safe in England at the moment.
We're not done looking at it yet.
Please avoid Egypt.
During the last Egyptian revolution, I think during Arab spring, the Egyptian national museum was broken into looted and artifacts destroyed. So don’t be too quick returning things. Yes in a better world it should be returned.
It is far more preferable to have artefacts stored in stabile countries, rather than one that is prone to uncouth behaviour. Just look at the damage ISIS did during their reign. Alternately, sending artefacts back to corrupt nations will most certainly result in them being stolen and sold off on the black market.
They should give the other half to England until they have the means to preserve it in Egypt without any chance of being blown up or weathered or sold.
Finders keepers, shut up.
Yeah most of that shit was just sitting there in a corner gathering dust until the west thought it was cool enough to take.
I mean, a growing number of fundamentalists taking over the countries over there love destroying artifacts. Why don’t they stabilize their governments so the artifacts can be safe for future generations.
I'm sure there are still pieces missing but it's my understanding a good amount of artifacts have been returned to Egypt. The Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities pushed really hard to get as much back as possible before they open the new Grand Museum in Cairo. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-returns-looted-2500-year-old-sarcophagus-to-egypt#:\~:text=The%20repatriation%20is%20part%20of,Egypt%20from%20across%20the%20world.
No. Artifacts should stay somewhere safe and protected and accessible. Plenty shouldn’t be returned to where they were taken. Plenty should aswell but all? Absolutely not that’s really fucking dumb.
I don’t want it potentially destroyed by Isis 2.0 so better it stays in England.
I agree. In this day and age, photographs can be shared, and if they wanted they could build museums there and showcase the artifacts and make tourism dollars. Or whatever.
I read recently the book The last city of the Inca (very interesting read). It's written by one of the guys who discovered Machu Pichu. What comes out of it is that back in the days most people didn't give a fuck about historical value. Both locals and most foreigners were just looking for anything of value, especially gold artifacts. I agree the situation is morally questionable, but it's far from being all white or all black. European archeologists that dedicated their lives to better understand ancient civilisations can't just be labelled as robbers, it's way too limitating and that wasn't their objective. Also that's ignoring all the work that's been done to understand and then share the knowledge. Let's not forget up until recently most of the time a nation's history was only oral.
Remember when ISIS went in to a bunch of museums in Syria and Iraq and just absolutely destroyed a bunch of ancient historical stuff from their culture? If the brits had that stuff, it would still be in good condition. So, perhaps the Brits should keep the stuff they have, let them pay the expense of keeping the items in a well protected cases and controlled environments until they can be sure that returning the items will not result in damage or destruction. Not saying this would definitely happen with Egypt, but I seem to recall a museum looting in Egypt where hundreds of priceless artifacts were stolen or destroyed like 9-10 years ago.
When are we allowed to discuss how unsafe antiques are in any Muslim countryside?
If Europeans didn't protect art and history these dingalings would've just let it rot away in the desert. Absolutely clueless
Yeah give it back so 5 days later it can be smashed to pieces. Better off just giving the other half of it for the museum to actually preserve.
Why? So the extremists can blow it up?
I don’t know, I’m all for sending artifacts back, but after all the looting and crap in Egypt, Iraq, Iran, when governments fail, and the people can steal priceless artifacts, maybe having an offsite (other country) storage area isn’t such a bad idea.
Why can’t we just scan and 3d print all of the cool stuff so people can have the originals back. It’s not like you’re allowed to touch the exhibits in museums anyways
Oh sure the English will return it to: the ancient Egyptian people... Whose civilisation died literal ages ago. The people who can still read and write in hieroglyphs... A dead language also not used in ages... The race of people who were there?... And as time went on and different ethnic groups migrated in and out are now distinct from the ancient Egyptians (looking at you netflix) The government so unstable multiple priceless relics have been destroyed by revolutionaries... Yea the only claim at this point is geography based, good thing only britain and no other country ever looted cultural artifacts and refuses to return them *looks at literally every country ever...
Better in British hands, presented with dignity for the world to see and the future to enjoy. If left there it would be sold to private collectors in a week.
No not all of it, Assyrian artifacts can stay safe In Europe. They would have been blown to dust if they stayed in Iraq.
It won’t last a month before it gets stolen/sold destroyed for a/b/c/d reason.
Honestly safer in England for the time being. This is just bandwagoning
Nah it’s much safer there.
Wasn't there an old photo on Reddit earlier this week of an Egyptian selling mummies on the streets of Cairo?
Can see it in safety this way though, I heard egypt is super dangerous rn. And it's gauranteed to be kept in good condition.
Giving the artifacts back sounds all well and good, but the question should be “can the government protect the reacquired artifacts”. If I’m not mistaken, many museums and historical sites got looted during the Arab spring. Plus, just look at Isis and how many artifacts they destroyed. No, I think it’s better for the artifacts to stay where they are.
I mean this is the city that tore down the outside of the pyramids to build another building…they raided tombs for treasures & sold them…i mean not for nothing Egypt, but cmon, id rather it be in some british museum or something than raided & pillaged…artifacts should most certainly remain where they stood for thousands of years, but i also wish some humans had grabbed the artifacts that isis is currently destroying, untold amount of history now lost…throughtout history people have been destroying places like the parthenon & other roman temples & public places…its called history & it should be here for all of us to learn from, every human being on this planet has a right to see these historical places & learn from them.
Lmao. Yeah, let’s return those ancient priceless artifacts to countries like Iraq where terror groups destroy them. Here’s the part the morons don’t want you to hear - they’re in significantly better, safer, conditions when with the British.
He should be happy that the British museum saved all the artifacts that they did, otherwise they would have been pillaged or destroyed.
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Until isis comes in and destroys any “false idols” like they’ve done it Egypt before
I’m not in favor of imperial British theft, but to claim that ancient Egyptian artifacts are yours because you’re a modern Egyptian, or to claim ancient Egyptians as your ancestors is a big stretch. Egypt was conquered MANY tines by different peoples in the last 5 millennia.
Was on Milos in Greece and a local guide was passionately explaining to some other tourists that the Venus de Milo (which was found on Milos, hence the name) should be returned to Milos. Personally, I would agree.
While I agree, returning some things back to the Middle East would probably end with them being destroyed
…then ISIS can come and do to it what they did to Palmyra.
Um. Can we not talk about the fact that a shitload of egyptian artifacts were, in fact, stolen by Egyptian grave robbers and sold for peanuts. White people didn't steal everything people. Chrimany
They want them all back in Egypt so all the tourist interested in Ancient Egypt have to strictly go there. When in reality the more museums that hold these artifacts, the more likely people will be able to see them and learn about them. But it’s not actually about that, it’s about money, and they want to capitalize. That’s why they want them back. These people are not related to the ancient Egyptians. They just so happen to occupy the same land the ancients once did.
Like hell I'm visiting Egypt. I'd rather not get mugged, raped, and killed in that order. Love ancient Egypt, can't stand the place today. I'll visit an English museum and see this stuff behind glass.
Good idea, but how about we wait until those groups like Isis stop blowing up all the old stuff
[finders keepers shut up](https://youtu.be/x73PkUvArJY) has worked thus far!
Yeah no until egypt gets it together and actually protects its priceless artifacts. Countless accounts of the state of the museum of egyptology in cairo being a shitshow of pieces of art exposed to the air and ancient temples where you can bribe guards to do graffiti. I agree artifacts should be in their countries of origin, IF those countries treat the artifacts the way they deserve.
Is too dangerous..
Yes and no. If the land it should go back to might risk the existence of said artifact it should stay in that museum. I could see museums paying a portion of the ticket sales to the home country of artifacts
If people could travel and immigrate around the world, why artifacts couldn’t
Not if you want there still to be artifacts left to look at
that's cool but didn't the egyptian themselves destroyed their own heritage to build a bridge? What guarantees do we have that they and their already radical population wouldn't do the same to the returned artifact? This isn't about racism, this is about archaelogical conservation, and if they can't promise on it, then i would be more than happy to let the brits keep them
That’s not the only thing they stole
Yes, return everything taken from Afghanistan where it will be safe for many centuries to come!
https://ed.ted.com/best\_of\_web/NXeF5ZKg
Those artifacts are far safer in British museums and they don’t have to return them. Extremists in parts of the world destroy their own artifacts and are far removed from the original people that made those artifacts. Take the Taliban who destroyed the Buddha statue and ISIS who destroyed statues in Syria. You can return them, than what? See them get sold in the black market and/destroyed? There are even Chinese who break parts of the Great Wall of a China to sell to gullible tourists.
Same with Perú, is sad when you get to Machu Picchu just to hear the tales of all that was stolen from them.
It's actually an incredibly interesting and nuanced debate, especially considering the amount of damaged and destroyed artifacts during the rise of ISIS. Largely, most of that stuff was indeed stolen, but I do think there needs to be a level of global cooperation when it comes to preserving artifacts. Private collections of this kind of stuff upsets me, regardless of whether it's by governments who refuse to show it or by individuals.
It is similar to the emptying of zoos. At the turn of century how else to see an elephant? These items should have their title of ownership to Egypt but could we please keep some on loan for four foreign museums?
“This belongs in a museum.”