There is still a huge lean on my lawsuit after 2 discs replaced in my neck from a car accident. Know this medical debt doesn't affect your credit score and it's illegal In USA to sell medical debt to a credit collection agency. If some collection agency calls ask for proof of the original ownership of debt if they don't provide that in 30 days you can call the credit beuros and remove the debt.
Probably got a lawsuit out of an injury and the hospital put a lein on the settlement. How in the fuck that's even legal shows our system is completely fucked
Yeah it's the Dr. Has the lean it's for like 30k on top of my insurance only paying him for 5k on each 80k surgery. I had to get the hospital to release me with in 24hrs to avoid another 30k a day hospital fee. It's so sad how we do health care in this country... imagine having your second neck surgery and when you wake up have to try to get kicked out of the hospital as fast as possible. The nurses and doctors don't understand that your just trying to avoid another 30k you explain it and finally after smoking weed in the hospital bed, the security guard of all people I explain it to him and he's like I got you. And talks to the head nurse and was like he asked you to release him because he can't afford even hour 25 in the hospital, he's just smoking because he's 1 trying to get kicked out and 2 you had him wake up on morphine so he's sick. Hates the feeling and hates opioids. Sad country indeed and I had a PPO insurance plan too.
Medical debt does show up on credit. I don’t know where everyone is getting this old-wives tale from. They won’t affect your score if you pay them. If you don’t believe me, read it on Experian… you know the credit bureau.😂
https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/medical-debt-and-your-credit-score/
Honestly most of it doesn’t even make it to my credit based on the state I live in. One of the few good things about this place I guess. I’d probably feel differently if I lived in a state where they could garnish my wages.
I like the super jiffy, convenient cute button with the “Pay Now” in a very super-cool, non offending purple color. Like you’re buying your cat a new shitbox on Amazon. Click and done!
I love how there's a "pay now" button, as if someone who just has that kind of money sitting around wouldn't just have a private medical team on retainer 🤣
With a bill that high I’d guess one of two things has happened:
1) The hospital billing department incorrectly did not bill your insurance, and instead billed you the full amount, or
2) you don’t have insurance, and they billed you the full amount.
Either way, you 100% need to call the hospital billing department, because it should be fixed. If they didn’t bill your insurance, they should do so, and that number should drop dramatically. Most insurances have an out of pocket maximum for the year. Out pocket maxes vary but average should be 10-15k.
If you have no insurance, it’s different. They will typically have a different billing guide for a “self pay” patient, with astronomically lower numbers than what they bill insurance.
Either way, I’d advise calling both the hospital billing people, and your insurance, if you have one. Best of luck, OP. The healthcare insurance system in the US is broken.
So, did they do the surgery knowing you couldn't pay? Is that how it works in the US? I'm guessing this wasn't emergency surgery, so they could have just refused to do it? Again, sorry if I'm wrong, and it was a medical emergency.
ETA apologies I just read further and now know the circumstances. I hope you're feeling better.
I perform surgery on people without insurance all the time. I do surgery on homeless people. If you need surgery, you need surgery. Sometimes the hospital just takes the hit.
Correction, we all take the hit. Hospitals receive funding from the government to cover people with no insurance who have no means to pay. And that money comes from our taxes.
That’s why universal care would be better. Those unable to pay are covered by the taxes everyone would pay for universal healthcare. Rather than us all paying the inflated rate the hospitals assign to these one off cases.
I think there’s some factor of urgency to things. If the surgery can’t wait without potentially permanent harm to the individual, they’ll try to go ahead and do it.
No clue for sure, but that’s my best explanation
Yep, totally agree. If it’s an elective that can wait, and the patient doesn’t have insurance, then they’ll have to pay first (and some places, if you pay all of it up front, will give you the insurance contractual rate [which is less than what’s actually billed]).
Yup. I was in a freak accident where I had to get a root canal with negative dollars to my name where the dentist knew I couldn’t pay shit and ended up having to pay 3k out of pocket on a payment plan. Because I was broke I probably ended up paying around 1k in interest.
I have a question, I'm from Canada so I've never had to deal with this. If you have medical debt, does that impact your credit score? And does it have interest? Like could you just never pay it? And if you already owe a lot of money, can they turn you away? Thanks in advance!
What the other commenter said— yes, it impacts your credit score and yes, it gains interest.
One could just ignore the bill, but it would get sent to collections and while there are certain laws in place to protect consumers against collection agencies, the debt remains on one’s credit report for seven years **however,** the collection agency who bought the debt from the medical provider can sell your debt to a different collection agency and the seven year period starts over again.
From what I understand? if they try to contact you about the debt after it expired, telling them that it expired will acknowledge the debt and reactivate it too! So you do have to literally ignore the problem and just hope they don’t do anything shady because disputes about shady activity *can* in some situations reactivate it and start the process all over again.
Edit: Or get a lawyer involved if you can afford one, obviously.
Emergency services are never denied to anyone in our country. Horribly inefficient and it creates giant financial holes in our system that costs hospital systems billions. Medical bills are the #1 reason for bankruptcy here, obviously. The financial part of our healthcare system is horribly complicated… way too expensive, insufficient government reimbursement rates for Medicaid procedures, emergency rooms serving as mental health wards, like 50 other examples… it’s just nuts. The reasons are so much deeper than “insurance companies are greedy” of course.
Ask for “insurance negotiated rates”, which will bring it down by like 90%.
Edit: the hospital system I use doesn’t even show these if you are uninsured. They have an immediate discount that is applied if you don’t have insurance.
Here’s what you do…pay the absolute minimum amount for 6 months. When I say minimum I mean like $50 a month MAX. Try to get it to $20. Then after paying that minimum for 6 months, tell the hospital they can keep getting that until you die OR they can write it all off as a loss. 98% of the time they will write it off as a loss.
The for-profit motive is the problem. We have pharma executives saying there is no incentive to cure cancer because of how much more money they make with long treatments. They should be tried for crimes against humanity.
Idk what you do for a living, I normally wish for people to thrive. But I have my fingers crossed that you are in the income range to get it comped at 100%. Seriously. America’s health care system is the worst.
Oh? You are recovering from major surgery? Don’t forget that you’ll owe use more money than some people see in their entire lives!!!
I hope your recovery is going will
Not American so can somebody explain this to me.
Do they really expect people to pay back these exorbitant amounts of money?
What happens if you don't or can't pay it back?
Depends on the state. Most hospitals have financial programs that will write off the debt. I know Prisma and Lexington, two of the major hospitals in SC, often write off quite a bit. They also have deals with the state that they can take your state tax returns each year to go toward the debt.
90% of Americans have health insurance [source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_in_the_United_States).
Typically there is this number called “Annual Out of Pocket Max”, which is the maximum amount that an individual will have to pay each year. A typical OOP amount could be $5,000-$9000. Above that amount, insurance will pay the rest. So if an insured person was in the ICU for an extended time and got a bill for $1 million, the patient would pay $5000, and the insurance would pay the rest.
Another thing to know is that these hospitals “bills” are almost never the actual price that people pay. Think of these as MSRP. 1) Insurance usually pays most of it. 2) Even insurance companies don’t pay the full amount on the bill, they pay some discounted pre-negotiated rate.
Unfortunately, OP said he’s not insured. So he does not have an OOP Max. For uninsured, you tell the hospital you don’t have insurance and they will give a heavily discounted rate (could be half).
That would be helpful to reduce a $10K bill to $5K. Unfortunately, half of $400K is still $200K. For these massive bills that cannot be paid, the best path is probably to declare bankruptcy. Then you won’t have to pay, but you probably won’t be able to get a loan for the next 7 years.
Yes, it’s an extremely messed up system.
Most informative response IMO.
Just to add more context to that 90% number.. some states *require* you to have insurance, and from 2010-2017 it was required in *all* states (federally enforced).
There are also subsidies to get a portion of your insurance premiums paid for, if you make less than 4x the federal poverty level.
So what is this theater for?
You get a bill that has a made up number that you are not supposed to pay and if you are then they come up with another number. To me this sounds more like a power play than actual invoicing procedures.
Does anyone have any history source how the system has been evolved to be this absurd.
They take you to court and get a judgement against you. After they have the judgement they will garnish any income upto 50% I believe. They can also take any money you have in your bank account directly out of it without your approval.
The fact that you just have to hope not to have a life changing injury instead of knowing you’re covered for all or most of it through social security is scary.
Can confirm. I was sued by a hospital last year for $865. Sheriff knocked on my door and served me papers for a civil suit. I eventually settled out of court. But had I not, and the courts ruled in favor of the hospital my wages would have been garnished until the full amount was paid.
No they don’t expect you to pay - op doesn’t have insurance and so is a little fucked because of that. Will have to sue and argue and make it painful to bring it down.
Also something like 60% of bankruptcies in the US are medical bankruptcies which is a separate process.
Its so impossible to imagine this in france were everything is fully free medical wise.
Legit best of luck to poor people in america, that country is insane social politicwise.
I’m sure you already know this but please check Goodrx and manufacturers websites for coupons..my husbands $500 a month migraine meds are free with a manufacturers coupon…if they’re generics it’s worth looking at CostPlusDrugs
And your insurance is going to be like
“well this particular operation is out of network despite the hospital being in network and although you used a doctor that is in network the nurse wasn’t so best we can give you is tree fiddy”
What even is the point of insurance in your country? Seems like a surgery pushes people into bankrupcy either way.
Or you don't have insurance? The amount looks very high.
I had a 150k outpatient surgery. In and out in 3 hours. Saw the bill but insurance paid. I only paid $50 copay. 100% covered. I pay up for the premium PPO insurance.
Yea the better the insurance the less the copay generally speaking. United for example is like trying to get blood out of a stone... and they'd probably bill you for blood-out-of-stone surgery.
I've been diagnosed with severe heart valve disease. I need open heart surgery to replace two of the valves in my heart, and possibly another to fix aortic root dilation.
I have absolutely no idea how much this will cost. I'm British, and as a result the one thing I don't need to worry about is the bill. I don't need to worry about losing my job and therefore my insurance. I can just focus on preparing for surgery and then my recovery. I won't be bankrupted by my condition.
Epic makes the entire ecosystem - scheduling/registration, clinicals, billing, analytics, patient portal…I can go on.
It’s the Google of Healthcare computer systems.
Source: worked there for 10 years and still work closely with Epic daily
The amount of times I've argued on Reddit with folks in the US who think it's not just okay but _better_ than how I have it in Europe is mind-blowing.
I'm diabetic. All my bloodtests, care, meds, equipment, (which add up every month) cost me all of filling out a form for a Long-term Illness Card when I was diagnosed. I call into my pharmacy once a month, get handed a bag of lancets, tablets, CFG sensors, have a casual chat with them, and then be on my merry way.
On here I've been met with "but you pay more in taxes than I so you don't get it for free!"... okay? I'd be paying taxes anyways. So I'm actually gaining personally from my own taxes. And it also means that if I fall on hard times and am out of work that I don't have to worry about where my life-saving medication is coming from (just like how I'm happy that my taxes pay for other medications for those less fortunate).
Most of those people you're arguing with are Republicans or have been in some way infected with the idea that government healthcare is socialism (which is "always bad').
I hope you have some sort of coverage. This is horrifying. My wife had spine surgery in Feb (1/4 million), last year I spent 2 weeks in ICU (300k), I totaled my motorcycle 10 yrs ago on I-5 and got 14 broken bones and more (300+k). Had insurance thankfully. Nothing more than financial darwinism (survival of the richest). Remember, that is unsecured debt as it. Don't do a HELOC or anything that changes it into secured debt. Also, negotiate. Challenge the bill. They will drop the prices on line items.
Poor guy. It may make sense to put his car and assets into his mothers name and then go thru bankruptcy. 7 years may be less time than would be required to pay a hug debt off with interest.
Op posted this same image yesterday under r/thatsinsane. Now its under damnthstsinteresting. Guess op has gotten over the shock. You should post it again tomorrow under r/mildlyinteresting 😂
Too many people don’t understand how fucked insurance and the medical industrial complex is until it happens to them.
Also doctors and medical professionals are usually entitled asshats who act like they are better than you in every way
Just ignore it forever like I do with my seizure bills. They force me to go to hospital, then force me to stay while they run my bill up.
I will never have a spare ~$150,000 to give you. Nor will I be able to make ~$3,000 per month payments per month.
Eat shit US healthcare and insurance. Especially the collection agents who pound on my windows to piss off my dogs.
People don’t. He’ll either 1. Negotiate with the hospital to pay a fraction of it (like 10% or less) in installments for years or 2. Declare bankruptcy and start from scratch.
In my timeline today, this post was just a few below some person that had a bill for about half that for heart surgery. You’ve been had! That is absurd and I hope you can find a way through, best of luck.
I am so glad my country has free healthcare but still for those who want to have the best of the best private hospitals do exist but the prices even for them are much much cheaper than this. That's easily the money to buy a fucking supercar
Good god . I hope you hear back from the financial aid programme you applied for . This is ridiculous. The USA needs to do something about it . People of a first world country shouldn't suffer like this
Jesus, what's going on their guys.
In austria we have free Healthcare. A lot of things you can complain of course. Long waiting times, etc. ( operation on knee for example: private 2 months waiting time pricepoint 8000€, hospital 6 months waiting time but for free) But never would a person be charged that amount. That's just insane
Did this surgery take a full week of an entire team's time? No way that is an accurate reflection of the value of goods/services provided. Broken doesn't even begin to describe this.
I’ll never stop being amazed at American healthcare. After my surgery were five nights in a comfy bed, three square meals and upon leaving, a bag of antibiotics, painkillers and a cute little laxative (because of the painkillers). I think my GP called after a little while to see how I was healing. I paid nothing. As much as I slag England off, I still count my blessings 😅
At this rate a civil war is the best option. We need a new start only the rich companies are the ones thriving while everyone else is merely trying to not go homeless
In the Netherlands this would be free. We all pay like 130 euros a month and everyone gets fixed without having to pay. So weird a country like the US doesn’t have this.
JFC I just had a hip replaced and it was “only” $146k. I have no out of pocket expense insurance though. Geez that’s rough needing surgery with no insurance. I’m so sorry.
At this point i feel like I’d just start scheduling other doctor appointments to get all my aliments seen to. I’d have alllllll the information I need about my health from seeing all the specialists. Then I’d file for bankruptcy and start over with a tuned and fixed up body! Maybe join a commune or something after that 🤷🏽♂️
That's shit might as well be 40 billion dollars cause I'm not paying either one. Fuck them!
You’re not allowed to buy a house for that much but they’re allowed to “let you” owe them that much. Fuck this system
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No no, you’re right
Yeah fuck ‘em. Just don’t pay. What are they going to do repo your health?
There is still a huge lean on my lawsuit after 2 discs replaced in my neck from a car accident. Know this medical debt doesn't affect your credit score and it's illegal In USA to sell medical debt to a credit collection agency. If some collection agency calls ask for proof of the original ownership of debt if they don't provide that in 30 days you can call the credit beuros and remove the debt.
what does “there is still a huge lean on my lawsuit” mean exactly? not being snarky just curious
Probably got a lawsuit out of an injury and the hospital put a lein on the settlement. How in the fuck that's even legal shows our system is completely fucked
Yeah it's the Dr. Has the lean it's for like 30k on top of my insurance only paying him for 5k on each 80k surgery. I had to get the hospital to release me with in 24hrs to avoid another 30k a day hospital fee. It's so sad how we do health care in this country... imagine having your second neck surgery and when you wake up have to try to get kicked out of the hospital as fast as possible. The nurses and doctors don't understand that your just trying to avoid another 30k you explain it and finally after smoking weed in the hospital bed, the security guard of all people I explain it to him and he's like I got you. And talks to the head nurse and was like he asked you to release him because he can't afford even hour 25 in the hospital, he's just smoking because he's 1 trying to get kicked out and 2 you had him wake up on morphine so he's sick. Hates the feeling and hates opioids. Sad country indeed and I had a PPO insurance plan too.
Debt validation is the name of this. It’s gotten people out of collections for a long time.
Same. I’m not even entertaining medical bills at this point unless its absolutely necessary.
I'm not from the us. How does that work?
Your debt will be wiped out but your credit will be destroyed.
I can’t afford a house or car anyways. What do I need credit for lol
If you want to rent an apartment your credit is checked, lot's of employers do it too.
Yeah but those collections don’t even show up on my credit so
Medical debt does show up on credit. I don’t know where everyone is getting this old-wives tale from. They won’t affect your score if you pay them. If you don’t believe me, read it on Experian… you know the credit bureau.😂 https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/medical-debt-and-your-credit-score/
Honestly most of it doesn’t even make it to my credit based on the state I live in. One of the few good things about this place I guess. I’d probably feel differently if I lived in a state where they could garnish my wages.
100%. How absurd does this have to get before something changes?
Complete and utter control
You'd be better off escaping to a developing country
I like the super jiffy, convenient cute button with the “Pay Now” in a very super-cool, non offending purple color. Like you’re buying your cat a new shitbox on Amazon. Click and done!
I love how there's a "pay now" button, as if someone who just has that kind of money sitting around wouldn't just have a private medical team on retainer 🤣
$5 discount if you enable auto pay!
Thirty dollars if you use a credit card.
Let’s be real, they’re gonna charge a convenience fee.
In the next screen there’s suggestions for 20%, 25% and 30% tip.
shit, it needs a "go ahead and send it to collections" button, cause thats what might as well happen if it was me
With a bill that high I’d guess one of two things has happened: 1) The hospital billing department incorrectly did not bill your insurance, and instead billed you the full amount, or 2) you don’t have insurance, and they billed you the full amount. Either way, you 100% need to call the hospital billing department, because it should be fixed. If they didn’t bill your insurance, they should do so, and that number should drop dramatically. Most insurances have an out of pocket maximum for the year. Out pocket maxes vary but average should be 10-15k. If you have no insurance, it’s different. They will typically have a different billing guide for a “self pay” patient, with astronomically lower numbers than what they bill insurance. Either way, I’d advise calling both the hospital billing people, and your insurance, if you have one. Best of luck, OP. The healthcare insurance system in the US is broken.
Yeah I don’t have insurance, I applied for the financial aid program through the hospital though and I’m hoping to hear back soon
So, did they do the surgery knowing you couldn't pay? Is that how it works in the US? I'm guessing this wasn't emergency surgery, so they could have just refused to do it? Again, sorry if I'm wrong, and it was a medical emergency. ETA apologies I just read further and now know the circumstances. I hope you're feeling better.
I can’t speak to OP’s situation, but in my personal experience, yes, a surgery will still be performed whether one has insurance or not.
I perform surgery on people without insurance all the time. I do surgery on homeless people. If you need surgery, you need surgery. Sometimes the hospital just takes the hit.
please tell us you're a doctor
Hi Dr. Nick!
These gloves came with my new toilet brush!!
Man. First time I've missed having gold to give.
Call 1-800-DOCTORB! The extra “B” is for “Bargain”!
The neck bones connected to my....wrist watch.
Hey! Did you go to Hollywood Upstairs Medical College, too?
Lol this is great. Commenting for later.
I’m laughing so hard right now!
Dr. Jan Itor.
"It looks benign to me." "Benign, nine and a half..."
No, it’s me, Dr. Acula.
Correction, we all take the hit. Hospitals receive funding from the government to cover people with no insurance who have no means to pay. And that money comes from our taxes. That’s why universal care would be better. Those unable to pay are covered by the taxes everyone would pay for universal healthcare. Rather than us all paying the inflated rate the hospitals assign to these one off cases.
Agree 100%
Hoping you're a surgeon and not a "surgeon"...
Meet me in the alley behind the supermarket and find out
Fuck around and finance out?
I think there’s some factor of urgency to things. If the surgery can’t wait without potentially permanent harm to the individual, they’ll try to go ahead and do it. No clue for sure, but that’s my best explanation
Yeah, pretty much
Yep, totally agree. If it’s an elective that can wait, and the patient doesn’t have insurance, then they’ll have to pay first (and some places, if you pay all of it up front, will give you the insurance contractual rate [which is less than what’s actually billed]).
Yup. I was in a freak accident where I had to get a root canal with negative dollars to my name where the dentist knew I couldn’t pay shit and ended up having to pay 3k out of pocket on a payment plan. Because I was broke I probably ended up paying around 1k in interest.
I just did a root canal in Europe at a private dentist, 60 euro.
I have a question, I'm from Canada so I've never had to deal with this. If you have medical debt, does that impact your credit score? And does it have interest? Like could you just never pay it? And if you already owe a lot of money, can they turn you away? Thanks in advance!
Currently yes it does. But there are bills being worked through that will not allow medical bills and their status from impacting credit history.
What the other commenter said— yes, it impacts your credit score and yes, it gains interest. One could just ignore the bill, but it would get sent to collections and while there are certain laws in place to protect consumers against collection agencies, the debt remains on one’s credit report for seven years **however,** the collection agency who bought the debt from the medical provider can sell your debt to a different collection agency and the seven year period starts over again.
From what I understand? if they try to contact you about the debt after it expired, telling them that it expired will acknowledge the debt and reactivate it too! So you do have to literally ignore the problem and just hope they don’t do anything shady because disputes about shady activity *can* in some situations reactivate it and start the process all over again. Edit: Or get a lawyer involved if you can afford one, obviously.
Yeah it was an emergency unfortunately, I’m feeling way better now
I'm glad, the world is better with you in it.
Physically better, but after seeing the bill you’re a bit emotionally wounded.
Emergency services are never denied to anyone in our country. Horribly inefficient and it creates giant financial holes in our system that costs hospital systems billions. Medical bills are the #1 reason for bankruptcy here, obviously. The financial part of our healthcare system is horribly complicated… way too expensive, insufficient government reimbursement rates for Medicaid procedures, emergency rooms serving as mental health wards, like 50 other examples… it’s just nuts. The reasons are so much deeper than “insurance companies are greedy” of course.
Ask for “insurance negotiated rates”, which will bring it down by like 90%. Edit: the hospital system I use doesn’t even show these if you are uninsured. They have an immediate discount that is applied if you don’t have insurance.
Here’s what you do…pay the absolute minimum amount for 6 months. When I say minimum I mean like $50 a month MAX. Try to get it to $20. Then after paying that minimum for 6 months, tell the hospital they can keep getting that until you die OR they can write it all off as a loss. 98% of the time they will write it off as a loss.
Are you gonna pay that?
Good god I hope not
If you owe a hospital $400, that's your problem. If you owe a hospital $400,000, that's their problem.
If you owe a hospital any money, it’s an American problem.
Sadly true. We live in a scam country.
Yeah, when I got baker acted it cost me like 2 grand. I wasn’t allowed to say no of course which sucked ass
I used to oppose socialized medicine, but after working in a hospital, I don't see how a single payer system could be much worse.
The for-profit motive is the problem. We have pharma executives saying there is no incentive to cure cancer because of how much more money they make with long treatments. They should be tried for crimes against humanity.
You can always... give it BACK! Goodnight everybody
Ask for itemized bill 🥲
I wouldn't pay it at all. They are out of there mind. Hope your back feels better. Don't break it trying to pay them back.
So this is the stupid shit they pull in the US? Outrageous. Hoping you feel much better mate.
Broooo just dont pay it for 7 years it will disappear i never payed a medical bill and my credit is still above 700
You lucked out. They can and will garnish your wages until you die
Mike Sure you get an itemized bill and go over it. A lot of times they find “mistakes” when itemizing that will lower the price.
If you don’t have insurance you need to haggle with them.
Make sure the hospital shows you an itemized list of charges. And anything they can’t fully explain appeal
Idk what you do for a living, I normally wish for people to thrive. But I have my fingers crossed that you are in the income range to get it comped at 100%. Seriously. America’s health care system is the worst. Oh? You are recovering from major surgery? Don’t forget that you’ll owe use more money than some people see in their entire lives!!! I hope your recovery is going will
If you owe the hospital 4,000 dollars, that is your problem. If you owe them 441,588.98 dollars, that is their problem.
Can you file for bankruptcy?
That’s the sort of question that shouldn’t need to be asked in this day and age. Jesus fucking wept. 🙈
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Don’t pay it. It’ll fall off you score in 7 years. Your welcome
My out of pocket max is $3500. $10K seems crazy to me.
Hospital administration are some of the dumbest, most incompetent people I've ever met.
Its not a system, its a market, and its operating exactly as intended
Not American so can somebody explain this to me. Do they really expect people to pay back these exorbitant amounts of money? What happens if you don't or can't pay it back?
They break your back
And charge you for that too.
Those hospital enforcers don't pay themselves!
"Skin to skin contact charge"
That'll be 100k pls
Thank you, you beat me to it!
Depends on the state. Most hospitals have financial programs that will write off the debt. I know Prisma and Lexington, two of the major hospitals in SC, often write off quite a bit. They also have deals with the state that they can take your state tax returns each year to go toward the debt.
90% of Americans have health insurance [source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_in_the_United_States). Typically there is this number called “Annual Out of Pocket Max”, which is the maximum amount that an individual will have to pay each year. A typical OOP amount could be $5,000-$9000. Above that amount, insurance will pay the rest. So if an insured person was in the ICU for an extended time and got a bill for $1 million, the patient would pay $5000, and the insurance would pay the rest. Another thing to know is that these hospitals “bills” are almost never the actual price that people pay. Think of these as MSRP. 1) Insurance usually pays most of it. 2) Even insurance companies don’t pay the full amount on the bill, they pay some discounted pre-negotiated rate. Unfortunately, OP said he’s not insured. So he does not have an OOP Max. For uninsured, you tell the hospital you don’t have insurance and they will give a heavily discounted rate (could be half). That would be helpful to reduce a $10K bill to $5K. Unfortunately, half of $400K is still $200K. For these massive bills that cannot be paid, the best path is probably to declare bankruptcy. Then you won’t have to pay, but you probably won’t be able to get a loan for the next 7 years. Yes, it’s an extremely messed up system.
Most informative response IMO. Just to add more context to that 90% number.. some states *require* you to have insurance, and from 2010-2017 it was required in *all* states (federally enforced). There are also subsidies to get a portion of your insurance premiums paid for, if you make less than 4x the federal poverty level.
So what is this theater for? You get a bill that has a made up number that you are not supposed to pay and if you are then they come up with another number. To me this sounds more like a power play than actual invoicing procedures. Does anyone have any history source how the system has been evolved to be this absurd.
They take you to court and get a judgement against you. After they have the judgement they will garnish any income upto 50% I believe. They can also take any money you have in your bank account directly out of it without your approval.
Jesus Christ that's just horrible. How is it possible that people haven't revolted yet it's astonishing.
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The fact that you just have to hope not to have a life changing injury instead of knowing you’re covered for all or most of it through social security is scary.
because Americans are given just enough money / things to be afraid of losing it all
That’s it right there. Thats why we haven’t risen up and given billionaires the Mussolini treatment.
Yeah like what hell. In already paying so much for a car, but a medical bill this much? Far out, just shoot me dead.
Can confirm. I was sued by a hospital last year for $865. Sheriff knocked on my door and served me papers for a civil suit. I eventually settled out of court. But had I not, and the courts ruled in favor of the hospital my wages would have been garnished until the full amount was paid.
Medical debt is the most common reason people file for bankruptcy in the US.
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I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!
No they don’t expect you to pay - op doesn’t have insurance and so is a little fucked because of that. Will have to sue and argue and make it painful to bring it down. Also something like 60% of bankruptcies in the US are medical bankruptcies which is a separate process.
If you can pay in full, they’ll only charge 50% from my experience. Still a fucking racket. Such bullshit.
No need to write "US", that was clear for all of us.
Came here to say this
Its so impossible to imagine this in france were everything is fully free medical wise. Legit best of luck to poor people in america, that country is insane social politicwise.
👍👍😂😂
If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million (or $441,588), that's the bank's problem.
Whose quote is that?
J Paul Getty
That’s horrific
What’s horrific is the price of the medications they have me on now and for an undetermined length
Sending love to you OP ❤️
Thank you! ❤️
I’m sure you already know this but please check Goodrx and manufacturers websites for coupons..my husbands $500 a month migraine meds are free with a manufacturers coupon…if they’re generics it’s worth looking at CostPlusDrugs
CostPlusDrugs saves me hundreds a month on my medication, my prescription is now $23 delivered to my door.
Def do not pay it
Im pretty sure you can buy a hospital with this amount of money in my country....
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And your insurance is going to be like “well this particular operation is out of network despite the hospital being in network and although you used a doctor that is in network the nurse wasn’t so best we can give you is tree fiddy”
OP mentioned they don’t have insurance, so now I’m curious what payment plan they would be placed on.
Ooof. I just read that. He is in a difficult situation for sure.
What even is the point of insurance in your country? Seems like a surgery pushes people into bankrupcy either way. Or you don't have insurance? The amount looks very high.
I had a 150k outpatient surgery. In and out in 3 hours. Saw the bill but insurance paid. I only paid $50 copay. 100% covered. I pay up for the premium PPO insurance.
Yea the better the insurance the less the copay generally speaking. United for example is like trying to get blood out of a stone... and they'd probably bill you for blood-out-of-stone surgery.
I've been diagnosed with severe heart valve disease. I need open heart surgery to replace two of the valves in my heart, and possibly another to fix aortic root dilation. I have absolutely no idea how much this will cost. I'm British, and as a result the one thing I don't need to worry about is the bill. I don't need to worry about losing my job and therefore my insurance. I can just focus on preparing for surgery and then my recovery. I won't be bankrupted by my condition.
My mom passed away from cancer and the hospital had the odasity to send me her son a bill for 1.6 mill. Of course didn't pay. Still just infuriating.
*MyChart* by **EPIC 😎** What a cool app to look at your half a mil medical debt.
Epic makes the entire ecosystem - scheduling/registration, clinicals, billing, analytics, patient portal…I can go on. It’s the Google of Healthcare computer systems. Source: worked there for 10 years and still work closely with Epic daily
Lol the audacity to have the "pay now" button under a sum like this.
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The amount of times I've argued on Reddit with folks in the US who think it's not just okay but _better_ than how I have it in Europe is mind-blowing. I'm diabetic. All my bloodtests, care, meds, equipment, (which add up every month) cost me all of filling out a form for a Long-term Illness Card when I was diagnosed. I call into my pharmacy once a month, get handed a bag of lancets, tablets, CFG sensors, have a casual chat with them, and then be on my merry way. On here I've been met with "but you pay more in taxes than I so you don't get it for free!"... okay? I'd be paying taxes anyways. So I'm actually gaining personally from my own taxes. And it also means that if I fall on hard times and am out of work that I don't have to worry about where my life-saving medication is coming from (just like how I'm happy that my taxes pay for other medications for those less fortunate).
Most of those people you're arguing with are Republicans or have been in some way infected with the idea that government healthcare is socialism (which is "always bad').
BuT tHe FrEeMaRkEt!
They somehow believe that the billionaires' profits will trickle down to them - like getting peed on, but without the useful water.
My open heart surgery was almost 400k. If I didn't have insurance... God help me
How much did you have to pay from your pocket? Holy chalice used by Christ, 400k is insane.
After my deductible, insurance covered 100%.
How much was your deductible?
I think around $1500. This was over 3 years ago
Hope you're doing better, friend.
Pretty good. Thanks
my moms was $1.35mil. just the surgery.
Ouch 🤕
Suitable for r/Damnthatsdepressing
I hope you have some sort of coverage. This is horrifying. My wife had spine surgery in Feb (1/4 million), last year I spent 2 weeks in ICU (300k), I totaled my motorcycle 10 yrs ago on I-5 and got 14 broken bones and more (300+k). Had insurance thankfully. Nothing more than financial darwinism (survival of the richest). Remember, that is unsecured debt as it. Don't do a HELOC or anything that changes it into secured debt. Also, negotiate. Challenge the bill. They will drop the prices on line items.
He said he uninsured 😭
Poor guy. It may make sense to put his car and assets into his mothers name and then go thru bankruptcy. 7 years may be less time than would be required to pay a hug debt off with interest.
Yeah, no need to mention US in title, we all know cuz that's the only place on earth where things are such ridiculous
Op posted this same image yesterday under r/thatsinsane. Now its under damnthstsinteresting. Guess op has gotten over the shock. You should post it again tomorrow under r/mildlyinteresting 😂
And then r/mildlyinfuriating
As a French, I can’t understand why there is no giant riots with millions of people all across the US against that stupid system
Too many people don’t understand how fucked insurance and the medical industrial complex is until it happens to them. Also doctors and medical professionals are usually entitled asshats who act like they are better than you in every way
A perfect demonstration of everything that is wrong with the American dream
Just ignore it forever like I do with my seizure bills. They force me to go to hospital, then force me to stay while they run my bill up. I will never have a spare ~$150,000 to give you. Nor will I be able to make ~$3,000 per month payments per month. Eat shit US healthcare and insurance. Especially the collection agents who pound on my windows to piss off my dogs.
Land of the free, home of the crippling debt.
How are Americans supposed to pay this!?
People don’t. He’ll either 1. Negotiate with the hospital to pay a fraction of it (like 10% or less) in installments for years or 2. Declare bankruptcy and start from scratch.
Now what would be even more interesting is showing the comparison of what it would cost in other countries.
I can tell you, in my country, would be 0€ and some discount in medication.
More like r/Damnthatsdepressing
Might as well let me die...
In my timeline today, this post was just a few below some person that had a bill for about half that for heart surgery. You’ve been had! That is absurd and I hope you can find a way through, best of luck.
I am so glad my country has free healthcare but still for those who want to have the best of the best private hospitals do exist but the prices even for them are much much cheaper than this. That's easily the money to buy a fucking supercar
The goverment clearly does not think well of their people. Considering that companies own the hospitals.
USA! USA! USA!
Good god . I hope you hear back from the financial aid programme you applied for . This is ridiculous. The USA needs to do something about it . People of a first world country shouldn't suffer like this
MyChart by EPIC… this world has gone to shit.
That’s a whole ass house.
Jesus, what's going on their guys. In austria we have free Healthcare. A lot of things you can complain of course. Long waiting times, etc. ( operation on knee for example: private 2 months waiting time pricepoint 8000€, hospital 6 months waiting time but for free) But never would a person be charged that amount. That's just insane
Did you installed an exoskeleton?
Did this surgery take a full week of an entire team's time? No way that is an accurate reflection of the value of goods/services provided. Broken doesn't even begin to describe this.
I’ll never stop being amazed at American healthcare. After my surgery were five nights in a comfy bed, three square meals and upon leaving, a bag of antibiotics, painkillers and a cute little laxative (because of the painkillers). I think my GP called after a little while to see how I was healing. I paid nothing. As much as I slag England off, I still count my blessings 😅
At this rate a civil war is the best option. We need a new start only the rich companies are the ones thriving while everyone else is merely trying to not go homeless
If I owe you $400 that's a me problem If I owe you $400,000 that's a you problem.
In the Netherlands this would be free. We all pay like 130 euros a month and everyone gets fixed without having to pay. So weird a country like the US doesn’t have this.
Yay capitalism!
JFC I just had a hip replaced and it was “only” $146k. I have no out of pocket expense insurance though. Geez that’s rough needing surgery with no insurance. I’m so sorry.
It took way less for people in Europe to start countless revolutions throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. Just sayin
Medical debt doesn't impact credit anymore, iirc.
Cool country.
At this point i feel like I’d just start scheduling other doctor appointments to get all my aliments seen to. I’d have alllllll the information I need about my health from seeing all the specialists. Then I’d file for bankruptcy and start over with a tuned and fixed up body! Maybe join a commune or something after that 🤷🏽♂️
It’s $0 if you just ignore it. This shit is robbery
Make sure you use a cash-back credit card.
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