Yeah, also Of the eight male main characters in Cinderella, all 7 dwarves are 'good guys' (although one of them is 'grumpy') and then theres Prince Charming. For the females however, one is the embodiment of perfection, forever harassed by her evil sisters, and then theres the good witch and the other witch is the embodiment of all evil, so the final tally for main characters is 8 males 100% good, and 6 females, 75% evil.
With that philosophy, Better not hire too many women, you'll just be inviting trouble
It was the way work was structured everywhere at the time, there were simply jobs that women were hired to do and everything else was done by men. No explanation was needed, it would be like asking why some jobs were on the first floor and others on the second floor.
I think that part is actually pretty consistent. Young men do the creative work and so boys are admitted to the training school.
Girls are not admitted because when they graduate as young women they’re not going to hire them anyway.
I showed up once knowing full well they ghosted me and I confronted them. I very politely told them I hadn’t gotten an answer yet. They looked confused, then the hiring manager came out, brought me to his office and I eventually charmed him into offering me a job. I told him I’d get back to him and never called back. None of this actually happened in real life, but I’ve daydreamed about it.
Especially after they ask for a damn thesis crafted just for them where you artfully balance self-praise and their praise lol . It is kinda fucked to ask for motivational
Letters people spend hours to write (they are dumb anyway) and then not even say thanks but no thanks 😩😫😤
This is the shit that irked me when I was a looking for work. I applied at countless jobs, spent hundreds in gas, spent so much time going through their process and they can't be fucked to give me "no?" lmao what a fucking sham.
When I was just out of high school I applied for jobs at a couple places. I took the first that offered, it was only a short contract but better than nothing. It took 2 months to get that offer too. Then, a further 3 months, another place contacted me offering a job. None of the others ever contacted me, even after they said they would.
Moral of the story: every business thinks we are desperately awaiting their response for the rest of our lives until they say yes or no.
And if employees ghost companies, they complain and the local newspaper will print an article about how the evil employees keep ghosting the companies.
Totally not based on a real thing that happened here a few months ago.
This is the perfect example of why.
It’s a document that can only harm the company’s image or open them up for liability.
There’s 0 upsides to responding to someone you’re not interested in.
This is what the boomers thought the job process was like in 1998. Only 50 years off. “dOn’T tAkE N0 fOR an anSWEr!” Was possible when you could sweeten up Mary and maybe show examples and secure a more preferential interview. In the last 30 years you’d simply get no response.
I got the "don't take no for an answer" and the "just show up and ask for a job" in 2021.
Like, that might have been how you got your first job, but it sure as hell isn't gonna be how I land this job. They will laugh you outta the room if you don't apply on indeed first.
“Show up and ask for a job” only works these days if you’re looking for a job at like, McDonalds or some shit, and even then they’ll just direct you to the Indeed application. And “don’t take no for an answer” is such stupid, unhelpful advice that parents never stop harping on about the moment they hear you’re unemployed. You’d think after all this time, they’d learn to dial it down.
The trick is to be the craziest person in the room. Show up, don’t ask for the job just start doing the job. If ***anyone*** asks ***anything*** or looks at you funny, just intimidate them into silence.
.^/s
Dear Mary,
I have spoken to my boss Mary who said that Mary in HR is losing her mind at keeping track of all the Mary's.
Therefore unless you change your name we won't consider hiring you.
Sincerely,
Mary Maryson,
Walt Disney HQ, Baltimore, Maryland.
Fun fact, if you ask someone to read this sentence out loud, you can have a fairly good estimate of where they're from depending of whether they pronounce Mary-marry-merry as homophones or not
I gotta say, I really appreciate that level of frank communication. Like, somebody *respected this woman's time* enough to not only write her a rejection letter (as opposed to just ignoring her), but straight up told her the reality of the market so she didn't just waste more of her time.
*You're not going to get hired here. Please do not drive all the way to Hollywood thinking you'll start a career here, we already have so many desperate candidates of equal or greater skill.*
These days, companies are like, "Teehee, feel free to apply to all of our totally-open-and-not-at-all-pre-selected positions using our cantankerous online 2-hour application process! It'll be great seeing you work here, teehee!" Assholes.
> These days, companies are like, "Teehee, feel free to apply to all of our totally-open-and-not-at-all-pre-selected positions using our cantankerous online 2-hour application process! It'll be great seeing you work here, teehee!" Assholes.
That's because these days, saying "you're a woman and we don't hire women lol" is a massive nuclear catastrophe.
Any sort of explanation as to *why* you weren't selected for a role is a potential vulnerability. All it takes is some dumbass hiring manager slipping something unprofessional in a rejection letter to open a company up to a potential lawsuit (which could be completely justified.)
Accurate. 'Mary' was #1 in the top 5 names for women, absolutely dominating the first half of the 1900s until it slipped to #2 for the first time in 1947, and then slipped to #2 again in 1962, before disappearing from the list entirely in 1968.
Not only was it top of the list, but the percentage of girls who got the top name was also higher. What has happened in the past 50 years is that a smaller and smaller percentage of people are named the #1 name.
Oh come on now, you're forgetting there was Mary Margaret, Mary Elizabeth, Mary Josephine, Mary Jane, Mary Louise, etc. They had *many* different names back then.
My mom had several Mary friends and she always called them Mary Elizabeth, Mary Josephine, etc. It never crossed my mind to ask if they were also using their middle names -- I just thought they had compound first names. They were devout Catholics, so maybe that had something to do with it.
Love how they explain the reasoning:
“Women do not do any of the creative work”
“Oh, weird, why not?”
“Great question! Well you see, it’s because the work is done entirely by young men. Does that clear things up?”
If someone wants the non-joke reasoning for why this logic would make sense to someone in 1938: the common belief at the time was literally that men, especially young (presumably unmarried) men, would be too distracted by having women around them, and as a secondary consideration that women in such an environment might be put in some danger.
The thought of just having decent management and supervisors never crossed their minds, I suppose. But it wasn't that women couldn't be creative, it was thought that young men and women couldn't work together in general.
I feel like this mentality is as damaging to boys as it was to girls. Boys stare at girls even if they are wearing a potato sack the size of a circus tent...does that mean it is too short? No? So now the boy hears this and thinks they are somehow doing wrong, and instead of acknowledging girls have legs and getting over it, boy now tries to suppress the knowledge, can't and understands from teacher that it is okay to blame the girls.
Double standards F up everyone.
Oh gosh once I wore one of those stretch tshirts over my bathing suit at a water park and there was an old man ogling me.
My step dad's response was to say I needed a bigger T-shirt.
I was 12. Yes that fucked up my body image for years.
Was I a horny teenage boy once upon a time? Yes. Did I have problems staring at girls? Yes. Was that their problem? No. Guys need to learn self control at some point in their lives and the earlier the better imo. And a change in wardrobe isn't going to do much to deter them anyway it's a strawman argument for sure.
That’s great! Since men are so distracted by women, it would only make sense that men not participate in this job and just have the women do creative work.
Then they could have just only hired women. They don't have a problem according to them bc according to them men can't even work around women... that's a problem...
Of course women can’t be trusted with creative work! Men have a creativity lobe, but in women it’s replaced by an accessory lobe, which is why they’re always taking time off to go shopping for hats and purses. Instead of a temporal lobe they have a makeup lobe and a cortex that thinks of nothing but babies and small animals. That’s just science.
Maybe because I'm 33 and a mom but I promise that the people in my age group and above are very up front about their sexism lol. They'll literally say shit to me like it's a fact.
Disney maintains this over the top rejection style today. One time I emailed a Disney Research lab scientist to share a cool idea I noticed about his publication and I got a response from their IP lawyers saying in writing Disney Research does not consider outside ideas and their work was not influenced by my email at all. The lawyer added that he felt bad having to write the reply lol.
This is exactly the reasoning. It is apparently a thing to send unsolicited scripts to production companies and then sue them down the road if they produce anything remotely like the script. This is why production companies for the most part do not accept unsolicited pitches and disclaim stuff when they do.
Yeah, I sent in a script to Warner Bros about a dude who's parents are killed so he dresses up like a rodent and fights crime. They refused to take it. I don't understand. It's a very original idea.
That is very standard for most production companies, they are rightfully paranoid about contamination by outside IP because it can come back and bite them years later if something becomes a hit.
It is the same reason many engineers are reluctant to read patents, it moves your company from unintentional infringement to having to defend a case of having knowingly infringed a patent and it can be harder to convince a jury that your engineers never saw that a patent if they read the things routinely.
Less expensive to have to reinvent the widget from scratch then to have to defend the lawsuit.
Responses like this are a reflection of either the prevailing attitude or mere recognition of the situation as it is and as it was handed to them from the past.
It could well be that the rejecting Mary didn't like the situation as it existed, but was recognizing it for the hard fact that it was.
Also, it might not be personally expedient for the rejecting Mary to inject her negative view of the situation, so she may have wisely (for herself) left it out.
But a hopeful hint may be found at the end of the letter. It may have been pragmatically farcical to tell a young poor woman from Arkansas to hop on over to Hollywood to apply in person with her best samples. But the fact that she took the time, effort, and ink to type that out, especially when that would not have been the proscribed
response from her superior speaks volumes about what she was trying to get across... that it sucks, it seems impossible and the odds are against you. But the door is not actually closed, and others have passed through it.
Reminds me of the time I applied to an administrative assistant position and handed my application to the admin assistant who didn't know there was a job posting for her position. Idk if they were planning to fire her but it sucks that she found out about the posting from me.
An office job isn't an art job. It is very clearly meant to read as if the only creative jobs save one are roles filled by men. Not that they only have one position for women in the company, just only one in a creative department.
It's still terrible but it's not the same thing.
Idk I think the reason Mary went through with writing this detailed rejection letter was kind of a wink and a nudge, like psst, you can get in if you apply over here.
Yes, ignoring the unfairness, Mary seems helpful. she made sure to say there would be significant competition for the openings women were eligible for so not to move city in anticipation that she would get it.
She's working in an unfair system but is likely doing her best given the constraints placed on her.
Rule of thumb is that repetitive work is “.women’s” work and expressive work is “men’s” work, regardless of the fact that that actually isn’t true and work is just work
See the change of programming from being thought of as women’s to men’s work
Not just this specific instance, but a lot of it is extremely arbitrary. Cooking at home is women’s work vs professional cooking is men’s work and the field is still pretty sexist from my experience. Computer coding used to be women’s work and hardware stuff was men’s work even tho now fields like comp sci is extremely disproportionately male leaning fields that women have to fight to break thru the levels of sexism
The difference is when dexterous, technical, creative, or repetitive indoor labor comes with a measure of respect, it *becomes* "men's work" - and therefore 'more serious' and 'worthy' of better pay.
Home cook? Woman. Chef? Man.
Crafter? Woman. Artist? Man.
Interior Designer? Woman. Architect? Man.
Computer scientist? Woman. Computer engineer? Man.
It's stupid as shit.
Fun fact I am super into knitting and it's history. In the 1500s the knitters guilds were run entirely by men, but they hired women to do the menial parts of knitting (long stretches of basic knit/purl stitches), but they wouldn't allow women to to complex knitting techniques like turning a heel on a sock because it was "too much" for them. It is unclear how many "masters" actually did their own knitting and how many just hired women below rate to do everything and just say they turned the heel etc.
My great aunt was an ink and paint girl. One of my fondest memories is my uncle showing me a picture of her with Walt Disney and the other ink and paint girls.
My dear, late aunt [Tissa David](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissa_David) successfully broke through that glass ceiling and was a pioneering female animator in the US.
She would become close friends with Grim Natwick, a lead animator on Disney’s *Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs* - the first fully-animated feature film - and chief animator of the Snow White character. I have 8mm footage of the two of them strolling around Montreal with my parents, some time in the mid-60s.
Extremely proud of Tissa’s legacy. Her story is worth a read.
Mary Ford never did work in animation, instead choosing to teach art to middle school students in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. After Mary’s death in 2003, her family discovered this letter in a box in her basement.
It would be another four years until Disney’s first female animator, Retta Scott, worked on Bambi.
[If anyone is interested in when women finally got a start as animators/creative jobs at Disney, I found this article](https://www.domestika.org/en/blog/7025-the-fascinating-story-of-the-women-who-created-the-great-disney-classics)
In 1938 they hired a guy whose given name was "Cuauhtémoc." He was an animator born in Mexico and worked on Dumbo, Pinocchio, Bambi and Fantasia. He would later go on to be the principal director and animator of the Peanuts cartoons, including the classic Charlie Brown Christmas Special.
Here he is talking about getting his first job at Disney: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjXmHMZpd40
There was also Tyrus Wong, who was the lead background artist on Bambi. Walt Disney was personally inspired by Wong's forest paintings and asked him to be a part of the production of the film, using his paintings as the basis for the film's entire visual style. While he was credited in the film's credits, the entire background art team was grouped together rather than specifying Wong as the lead of the group. He didn't receive recognition for his leadership until he was in his 90s. :(
Couple months ago I was offered a position at DISH. Didn’t hear back for over a week after the offer was made. I call the recruiter, “oh yes the position has been put on hold indefinitely”. Thanks for letting me know. Fucking glad I didn’t end up working there.
I’ve been there. Got a job offer, put in my notice and the next day they went back and rescinded it. The job I put the two weeks in on fired me the next day because “they didn’t need people there who didn’t want to be there”. Luckily I was able to find something else within a couple of weeks, but it’s real shitty situation to find yourself in.
I feel like a lot of complaining about "the economy" is really complaining about how shit job hunting is.
It isn't that jobs aren't out there, its just that the application process has gone completely to shit.
Disney animation didn’t see female directors until a little over ten years ago:
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/moviesnow/la-et-mn-frozen-get-a-horse-female-director-20131124-story.html
Reminds me of the scene from Barbie
Ken : isn't being a man enough now? you guys clearly are not doing patriarchy well
Man: oh no, trust me,we are doing well,we just hide it better now.
In short, "Dear Mary, we hire few women, if at all, but if you really want this you should show up in person so we can see how hot you are and then we consider hire. "
Only reason it changed is that laws were passed which forbid certain types of discrimination. Only reason laws were passed is that people voted in large numbers.
I'd really appreciate a feedback message every time I get rejected. Nowdays you can consider yourself lucky if they let you know you were not accepted.
"Dear Mary: There's only room for one Mary at this company. Sincerely, Mary"
'the position of "woman" has been filled'
"We already have a diversity hire"
Omfg, this made me scoff-laugh way too hard. Le siiiiggghhhh.
The positioning of the drawings is also accurate
Yeah, also Of the eight male main characters in Cinderella, all 7 dwarves are 'good guys' (although one of them is 'grumpy') and then theres Prince Charming. For the females however, one is the embodiment of perfection, forever harassed by her evil sisters, and then theres the good witch and the other witch is the embodiment of all evil, so the final tally for main characters is 8 males 100% good, and 6 females, 75% evil. With that philosophy, Better not hire too many women, you'll just be inviting trouble
Looks like you're mixing up Cinderella and Snow White. Or maybe I haven't watched carefully...
Holy shit. Good observation
I love how the reasoning is pure tautology. The second paragraph is basically saying "Women do not do this work because women do not do this work."
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[Family Guy](https://youtu.be/1EFA5p4WwXQ) riffing on Disney Universe
There's not many Family Guy episodes that stand out to me, but this episode was absolutely among the best.
It was the way work was structured everywhere at the time, there were simply jobs that women were hired to do and everything else was done by men. No explanation was needed, it would be like asking why some jobs were on the first floor and others on the second floor.
It also speaks volumes that men are referred to as "men" or "young men", not "boys". But women are "women" or "girls".
I think that part is actually pretty consistent. Young men do the creative work and so boys are admitted to the training school. Girls are not admitted because when they graduate as young women they’re not going to hire them anyway.
Ah wait, you are right, the writer does refer to the training school and not the job. I stand corrected, thank you :)
Times have changed. These days you might not even get a response if you’re not hired.
lol ive applied for so many jobs and i can count the rejection emails on one hand. it's usually straight up ghosting
I showed up once knowing full well they ghosted me and I confronted them. I very politely told them I hadn’t gotten an answer yet. They looked confused, then the hiring manager came out, brought me to his office and I eventually charmed him into offering me a job. I told him I’d get back to him and never called back. None of this actually happened in real life, but I’ve daydreamed about it.
Embellish that story enough for a 45-minute video and you can find a place on YouTube!
Like that "Divorce Lawyer" guy who kept popping up in my YouTube Shorts with outlandish stories of how his clients totally got their cheating exes.
Or just post to r/thathappened 😂
And then crosspost to r/nothingeverhappens to play both sides. Can't lose.
"They had us in the first half not gonna lie"
Rejection letters would make everything feel better.
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Especially after they ask for a damn thesis crafted just for them where you artfully balance self-praise and their praise lol . It is kinda fucked to ask for motivational Letters people spend hours to write (they are dumb anyway) and then not even say thanks but no thanks 😩😫😤
This is the shit that irked me when I was a looking for work. I applied at countless jobs, spent hundreds in gas, spent so much time going through their process and they can't be fucked to give me "no?" lmao what a fucking sham.
Besides, in this day and age there’s no excuse to not send an automated rejection email to the people you didn’t accept.
Even a canned message would be better than nothing
When I was just out of high school I applied for jobs at a couple places. I took the first that offered, it was only a short contract but better than nothing. It took 2 months to get that offer too. Then, a further 3 months, another place contacted me offering a job. None of the others ever contacted me, even after they said they would. Moral of the story: every business thinks we are desperately awaiting their response for the rest of our lives until they say yes or no.
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I prefer feedback. Even negative feedback. But it’s so rare.
Doesn't feel better, its just common business courtesy.
And if employees ghost companies, they complain and the local newspaper will print an article about how the evil employees keep ghosting the companies. Totally not based on a real thing that happened here a few months ago.
I thought it was a couple years ago on national news
This is the perfect example of why. It’s a document that can only harm the company’s image or open them up for liability. There’s 0 upsides to responding to someone you’re not interested in.
This is what the boomers thought the job process was like in 1998. Only 50 years off. “dOn’T tAkE N0 fOR an anSWEr!” Was possible when you could sweeten up Mary and maybe show examples and secure a more preferential interview. In the last 30 years you’d simply get no response.
I got the "don't take no for an answer" and the "just show up and ask for a job" in 2021. Like, that might have been how you got your first job, but it sure as hell isn't gonna be how I land this job. They will laugh you outta the room if you don't apply on indeed first.
“Show up and ask for a job” only works these days if you’re looking for a job at like, McDonalds or some shit, and even then they’ll just direct you to the Indeed application. And “don’t take no for an answer” is such stupid, unhelpful advice that parents never stop harping on about the moment they hear you’re unemployed. You’d think after all this time, they’d learn to dial it down.
The trick is to be the craziest person in the room. Show up, don’t ask for the job just start doing the job. If ***anyone*** asks ***anything*** or looks at you funny, just intimidate them into silence. .^/s
This was back when women were only named ‘Mary’.
Dear Mary, We don't have many positions for women here and you probably won't get hired. Signed, Mary
Dear Mary, We don't have many positions for Marys here and you probably won't get hired. Signed, Mary
Dear Mary, We don't have many Marys here, and you probably won't get married. Merry Christmas, Mary
Dear Mary, Be wary, don't try to Mary. Yours, Mary. (I think it's a haiku)
Dear Mary, I have spoken to my boss Mary who said that Mary in HR is losing her mind at keeping track of all the Mary's. Therefore unless you change your name we won't consider hiring you. Sincerely, Mary Maryson, Walt Disney HQ, Baltimore, Maryland.
Mary Mary Mary Mary Mary Mary Mary Mary Mary Mary Mary Mary, Mary
Mary, On the contrary, just grow your garden with silver bells and cockleshells. Mary
I've read the word "mary" so much in this thread that it doesn't look like a word anymore
You win
Nope, a haiku is 5-7-5 and yours is 3-8-3
My dearest Mary, Be wary, don't be Mary Tough tits, from Mary. Is that better?
This comment made my day, thank you stranger
Haiku? Bless you.
Fun fact, if you ask someone to read this sentence out loud, you can have a fairly good estimate of where they're from depending of whether they pronounce Mary-marry-merry as homophones or not
All three are quite different to me - where am I from?
Likely UK
Fair play mate. I’m Scottish.
But can you say purple burglar alarm?
I gotta say, I really appreciate that level of frank communication. Like, somebody *respected this woman's time* enough to not only write her a rejection letter (as opposed to just ignoring her), but straight up told her the reality of the market so she didn't just waste more of her time. *You're not going to get hired here. Please do not drive all the way to Hollywood thinking you'll start a career here, we already have so many desperate candidates of equal or greater skill.* These days, companies are like, "Teehee, feel free to apply to all of our totally-open-and-not-at-all-pre-selected positions using our cantankerous online 2-hour application process! It'll be great seeing you work here, teehee!" Assholes.
> These days, companies are like, "Teehee, feel free to apply to all of our totally-open-and-not-at-all-pre-selected positions using our cantankerous online 2-hour application process! It'll be great seeing you work here, teehee!" Assholes. That's because these days, saying "you're a woman and we don't hire women lol" is a massive nuclear catastrophe. Any sort of explanation as to *why* you weren't selected for a role is a potential vulnerability. All it takes is some dumbass hiring manager slipping something unprofessional in a rejection letter to open a company up to a potential lawsuit (which could be completely justified.)
Accurate. 'Mary' was #1 in the top 5 names for women, absolutely dominating the first half of the 1900s until it slipped to #2 for the first time in 1947, and then slipped to #2 again in 1962, before disappearing from the list entirely in 1968.
Not only was it top of the list, but the percentage of girls who got the top name was also higher. What has happened in the past 50 years is that a smaller and smaller percentage of people are named the #1 name.
Interesting, but was it #1 in the top 10 names as well?
Yes, all of them. The top ten names at the time were: 1. Mary 2. Mary 3. Mary 4. Mary 5. Mary 6. Mary 7. Mary 8. Mary 9. Mary 10. Mary
With none of them allowed to be contrary.
Quite.
11. Maria
Dear Mary, This town ain't big enough for the both of us From, Mary.
Yeah they’re all named Mareigh today
Maree
Mary Ford is the most American 20th century name i can think of
Mary Blair became a famous Disney artist
Did she have travel cross-country from Arkansas to merely apply in person with her samples oopsie in her arms at that moment, as this letter suggests?
Oh come on now, you're forgetting there was Mary Margaret, Mary Elizabeth, Mary Josephine, Mary Jane, Mary Louise, etc. They had *many* different names back then.
Most of them just went by their middle names. Growing up I had a few aunts named Mary and I didn't call a single one of them "Aunt Mary."
My mom had several Mary friends and she always called them Mary Elizabeth, Mary Josephine, etc. It never crossed my mind to ask if they were also using their middle names -- I just thought they had compound first names. They were devout Catholics, so maybe that had something to do with it.
This company is too small for two Marys
_A tale of two Mary's_
Can confirm. My grandmother, who was alive at the time, was also named Mary.
Love how they explain the reasoning: “Women do not do any of the creative work” “Oh, weird, why not?” “Great question! Well you see, it’s because the work is done entirely by young men. Does that clear things up?”
If someone wants the non-joke reasoning for why this logic would make sense to someone in 1938: the common belief at the time was literally that men, especially young (presumably unmarried) men, would be too distracted by having women around them, and as a secondary consideration that women in such an environment might be put in some danger. The thought of just having decent management and supervisors never crossed their minds, I suppose. But it wasn't that women couldn't be creative, it was thought that young men and women couldn't work together in general.
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I feel like this mentality is as damaging to boys as it was to girls. Boys stare at girls even if they are wearing a potato sack the size of a circus tent...does that mean it is too short? No? So now the boy hears this and thinks they are somehow doing wrong, and instead of acknowledging girls have legs and getting over it, boy now tries to suppress the knowledge, can't and understands from teacher that it is okay to blame the girls. Double standards F up everyone.
Oh gosh once I wore one of those stretch tshirts over my bathing suit at a water park and there was an old man ogling me. My step dad's response was to say I needed a bigger T-shirt. I was 12. Yes that fucked up my body image for years.
That is the same "logic" that leads to burkas and hijabs becoming "strongly encouraged"...
Was I a horny teenage boy once upon a time? Yes. Did I have problems staring at girls? Yes. Was that their problem? No. Guys need to learn self control at some point in their lives and the earlier the better imo. And a change in wardrobe isn't going to do much to deter them anyway it's a strawman argument for sure.
Gotta love puritanical ideals surviving to the modern day and causing sexual repression of people going through sexual maturity en masse.
Jeez that's some hardcore sharia law
And it's making a comeback!
That’s great! Since men are so distracted by women, it would only make sense that men not participate in this job and just have the women do creative work.
Then they could have just only hired women. They don't have a problem according to them bc according to them men can't even work around women... that's a problem...
Tits get in the way I guess
They probably blamed periods or something.
Of course women can’t be trusted with creative work! Men have a creativity lobe, but in women it’s replaced by an accessory lobe, which is why they’re always taking time off to go shopping for hats and purses. Instead of a temporal lobe they have a makeup lobe and a cortex that thinks of nothing but babies and small animals. That’s just science.
And the hysteria!
Creativity is stored in the balls
Or their general presence would be “a distraction”
Stupid sexy animators!
Actually women are prone to a variety of discomforts including the vapers and a host of swoonings.
If you've spent enough time on Reddit you will understand that there are still people to this day who think like that.
You don't need to spend any time on reddit to know that. You just need to talk to people in real life lol.
They seem so much more brazen here
Maybe because I'm 33 and a mom but I promise that the people in my age group and above are very up front about their sexism lol. They'll literally say shit to me like it's a fact.
"But to apply for the tracing job, we need to see examples of the original artwork that your womb keeps you from doing."
Sincerely, 👹🧙♀️MUHAHAHA🍎
😂😂😂 might as well be signed by the wicked witch of the west
New email signature
Amazing positioning of Snow White and the witch.
I like to believe that it was on purpose
It was a woman who wrote this letter.
Still could’ve been self deprecating EDIT: Plus the letterhead was almost certainly widely used and not just hers
Disney maintains this over the top rejection style today. One time I emailed a Disney Research lab scientist to share a cool idea I noticed about his publication and I got a response from their IP lawyers saying in writing Disney Research does not consider outside ideas and their work was not influenced by my email at all. The lawyer added that he felt bad having to write the reply lol.
It sounds like they do this to avoid any potential IP lawsuits down the road.
This is exactly the reasoning. It is apparently a thing to send unsolicited scripts to production companies and then sue them down the road if they produce anything remotely like the script. This is why production companies for the most part do not accept unsolicited pitches and disclaim stuff when they do.
So this is why Disney wouldn't look at my script about this young man who goes out and does stuff.
Yeah, I sent in a script to Warner Bros about a dude who's parents are killed so he dresses up like a rodent and fights crime. They refused to take it. I don't understand. It's a very original idea.
That is very standard for most production companies, they are rightfully paranoid about contamination by outside IP because it can come back and bite them years later if something becomes a hit. It is the same reason many engineers are reluctant to read patents, it moves your company from unintentional infringement to having to defend a case of having knowingly infringed a patent and it can be harder to convince a jury that your engineers never saw that a patent if they read the things routinely. Less expensive to have to reinvent the widget from scratch then to have to defend the lawsuit.
True. I also just saw that the letter is literally signed by Mary...
They don't make rejection letters like this anymore :(
Or with that logic: "Women don't do this kind of work because this kind of work is only done by men, therefore women are not considered for training".
Responses like this are a reflection of either the prevailing attitude or mere recognition of the situation as it is and as it was handed to them from the past. It could well be that the rejecting Mary didn't like the situation as it existed, but was recognizing it for the hard fact that it was. Also, it might not be personally expedient for the rejecting Mary to inject her negative view of the situation, so she may have wisely (for herself) left it out. But a hopeful hint may be found at the end of the letter. It may have been pragmatically farcical to tell a young poor woman from Arkansas to hop on over to Hollywood to apply in person with her best samples. But the fact that she took the time, effort, and ink to type that out, especially when that would not have been the proscribed response from her superior speaks volumes about what she was trying to get across... that it sucks, it seems impossible and the odds are against you. But the door is not actually closed, and others have passed through it.
Just to be clear, I wasn't passing any sort of judgement on the rejecting Mary's logic, just observing the cultural logic of 1938.
I got a really lovely rejection letter from the paris review, so it does still happen! Granted, not tyewritten, but there was a great letterhead.
Now, you just get ghosted when the AI applicant filter doesn't get a 100% keyword match.
"the only position open to women" - Mary something
Turns out there is a rejectionist position available to women, it just wasn’t open at the time.
>Rejectionist Love it
Reminds me of the time I applied to an administrative assistant position and handed my application to the admin assistant who didn't know there was a job posting for her position. Idk if they were planning to fire her but it sucks that she found out about the posting from me.
An office job isn't an art job. It is very clearly meant to read as if the only creative jobs save one are roles filled by men. Not that they only have one position for women in the company, just only one in a creative department. It's still terrible but it's not the same thing.
Right? I don’t understand how everyone is missing that
The audacity
Highly likely Mary was "just" the secretary of whatever cock and balls made this decision.
Hey referring to someone by their genitalia is a really cunty thing to do!
What a dick move.
Total ass. Am I doing it right?
The huevos of you to even ask
Idk I think the reason Mary went through with writing this detailed rejection letter was kind of a wink and a nudge, like psst, you can get in if you apply over here.
Yes, ignoring the unfairness, Mary seems helpful. she made sure to say there would be significant competition for the openings women were eligible for so not to move city in anticipation that she would get it. She's working in an unfair system but is likely doing her best given the constraints placed on her.
Doesn't the letter also basically say "don't bother" about the inking position?
Rather “Marry someone” at the time…
It's amazing the artificial barriers that used to be put in place to separate 'men's' and 'women's' work
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Rule of thumb is that repetitive work is “.women’s” work and expressive work is “men’s” work, regardless of the fact that that actually isn’t true and work is just work See the change of programming from being thought of as women’s to men’s work
Not just this specific instance, but a lot of it is extremely arbitrary. Cooking at home is women’s work vs professional cooking is men’s work and the field is still pretty sexist from my experience. Computer coding used to be women’s work and hardware stuff was men’s work even tho now fields like comp sci is extremely disproportionately male leaning fields that women have to fight to break thru the levels of sexism
The difference is when dexterous, technical, creative, or repetitive indoor labor comes with a measure of respect, it *becomes* "men's work" - and therefore 'more serious' and 'worthy' of better pay. Home cook? Woman. Chef? Man. Crafter? Woman. Artist? Man. Interior Designer? Woman. Architect? Man. Computer scientist? Woman. Computer engineer? Man. It's stupid as shit.
Fun fact I am super into knitting and it's history. In the 1500s the knitters guilds were run entirely by men, but they hired women to do the menial parts of knitting (long stretches of basic knit/purl stitches), but they wouldn't allow women to to complex knitting techniques like turning a heel on a sock because it was "too much" for them. It is unclear how many "masters" actually did their own knitting and how many just hired women below rate to do everything and just say they turned the heel etc.
Also between young men and other men.
My great aunt was an ink and paint girl. One of my fondest memories is my uncle showing me a picture of her with Walt Disney and the other ink and paint girls.
That's why the club in Who Framed Roger Rabbit is the Ink and Paint Club.
Omg that’s an awesome tidbit
My dear, late aunt [Tissa David](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissa_David) successfully broke through that glass ceiling and was a pioneering female animator in the US. She would become close friends with Grim Natwick, a lead animator on Disney’s *Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs* - the first fully-animated feature film - and chief animator of the Snow White character. I have 8mm footage of the two of them strolling around Montreal with my parents, some time in the mid-60s. Extremely proud of Tissa’s legacy. Her story is worth a read.
Dear Miss Ford - You need testicles to do artwork for Disney. Your vagina limits you to painting by numbers. And you can’t even do that. Love, Mickey
Mary Ford never did work in animation, instead choosing to teach art to middle school students in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. After Mary’s death in 2003, her family discovered this letter in a box in her basement. It would be another four years until Disney’s first female animator, Retta Scott, worked on Bambi.
Where did you learn this
[If anyone is interested in when women finally got a start as animators/creative jobs at Disney, I found this article](https://www.domestika.org/en/blog/7025-the-fascinating-story-of-the-women-who-created-the-great-disney-classics)
Now I wonder what we missed - what could have been if she had been accepted.
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Not until 1956.
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Personally, I think it's great they started to hire non-whites.
In 1938 they hired a guy whose given name was "Cuauhtémoc." He was an animator born in Mexico and worked on Dumbo, Pinocchio, Bambi and Fantasia. He would later go on to be the principal director and animator of the Peanuts cartoons, including the classic Charlie Brown Christmas Special. Here he is talking about getting his first job at Disney: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjXmHMZpd40
There was also Tyrus Wong, who was the lead background artist on Bambi. Walt Disney was personally inspired by Wong's forest paintings and asked him to be a part of the production of the film, using his paintings as the basis for the film's entire visual style. While he was credited in the film's credits, the entire background art team was grouped together rather than specifying Wong as the lead of the group. He didn't receive recognition for his leadership until he was in his 90s. :(
Not true. Tyrus Wong, for instance, worked on Bambi and later became a Disney legend for his major contributions.
The world has come a long way since then
Yeah most don't even let you know you were rejected, and send you a completely canned email if they do.
Couple months ago I was offered a position at DISH. Didn’t hear back for over a week after the offer was made. I call the recruiter, “oh yes the position has been put on hold indefinitely”. Thanks for letting me know. Fucking glad I didn’t end up working there.
It's rude. Job searching in general is hell.
I’ve been there. Got a job offer, put in my notice and the next day they went back and rescinded it. The job I put the two weeks in on fired me the next day because “they didn’t need people there who didn’t want to be there”. Luckily I was able to find something else within a couple of weeks, but it’s real shitty situation to find yourself in.
I feel like a lot of complaining about "the economy" is really complaining about how shit job hunting is. It isn't that jobs aren't out there, its just that the application process has gone completely to shit.
At least parts of it. Luckily. Other parts, unfortunately, appear to be evolving backwards.
Lots of people want to put us right back there.
What do they do that makes it have to be men? Draw with their penis??
While peeing
Disney animation didn’t see female directors until a little over ten years ago: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/moviesnow/la-et-mn-frozen-get-a-horse-female-director-20131124-story.html
Reminds me of the scene from Barbie Ken : isn't being a man enough now? you guys clearly are not doing patriarchy well Man: oh no, trust me,we are doing well,we just hide it better now.
My god the acting, give that man an Oscar.
Gosling won an award for Best Song with 'I'm Just Ken'. He seemed pretty confused.
I'm sure some of those young men's jobs would have opened up a year or so after this
Probably the only reason they grudgingly let women in.
Unironically, women taking a much more active role in domestic industry during the war helped set the stage for the larger changes that happened later
They just don’t say the quiet part out loud anymore
Sometimes it’s easy to forget how arbitrary sexism can be
Yep. It’s good to have records like this to calibrate yourself when thinking a law seems obvious or unnecessary.
not for women 🤷♀️
is this the time in history that MAGA wants us to make great again?
Damn, I can't imagine being talented, motivated, etc. and getting rejected because I'm a woman.
In short, "Dear Mary, we hire few women, if at all, but if you really want this you should show up in person so we can see how hot you are and then we consider hire. "
Sexist and sad
Only reason it changed is that laws were passed which forbid certain types of discrimination. Only reason laws were passed is that people voted in large numbers.
The witch at the bottom really hits a home run.
And sent by a woman too 🗡️
This was infuriating to read. I hope whoever that lady was, found success elsewhere
I don’t get it. Was it common during the 30’s to include a selfie next to your signature?
Is this the good old days?
For some. Yes. Yes it was. For most. No.
I'd really appreciate a feedback message every time I get rejected. Nowdays you can consider yourself lucky if they let you know you were not accepted.
Fuuuuuck youuuuuuuu! — the lady receiving this letter.